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Speaker 1: This program features the individual opinions of the hosts, guests,

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Speaker 1: and callers, and not necessarily those of the producer, the station,

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Speaker 1: it's affiliates or sponsors. This is True Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to True Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. It is Tuesday,

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Speaker 2: July eighth, and yes, we have a stack knight of headlines. Listen.

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Speaker 2: We have a couple of new updates and the Brian

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Speaker 2: Coberger case, also the Barry Morphew case and his secret

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Speaker 2: life apparently in Arizona. And we're digging into a new

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Speaker 2: one called the Bonnie Woodward case. If you haven't been

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Speaker 2: following that, it is one that you definitely want to

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Speaker 2: stay with us for. Also, Karen Reid, there's a connection

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Speaker 2: to a case that we had heard about along the

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Speaker 2: way that also mirrors a little bit some of the

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Speaker 2: troubles that the Canton police were actually experiencing. So that's

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Speaker 2: kind of top news right now. But first, I'm Stephanie

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Speaker 2: Leidecker and I head of KAT Studios with Courtney Armstrong.

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Speaker 2: Body Move. We've been here every night two hours live.

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Speaker 2: We want to hear from you. Eight eight eight three

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Speaker 2: one crime. Join the conversation. Please leave us a message

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Speaker 2: on our talkbacks. It's the iHeartRadio app top right hand corner.

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Speaker 2: Just push the button, leave us a message and boom,

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Speaker 2: you're on the show. By the way, I just want

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Speaker 2: to say we have been getting some great listener cases.

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Speaker 2: You know, you guys have really been you know, feeding

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Speaker 2: us some of your cases that you're curious about things

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Speaker 2: that are happening kind of in and around your neighborhood

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Speaker 2: and area. And we are digging in, We get them,

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Speaker 2: we are following up and we are hearing it. So

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Speaker 2: much more on that to come, keep it coming. But first,

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Speaker 2: you know, let's just switch gears to the biggest news

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Speaker 2: story in the country. Is this tragedy happening still in Texas.

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Speaker 2: We want to acknowledge it. Our hearts are with everyone body.

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Speaker 2: I know, we've been following it all day. If you

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Speaker 2: want to just give us the update there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's really tragic and this is in Texas.

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Speaker 3: Heavy rain poured into parts of central Texas over the

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Speaker 3: fourth July weekend and it's been you know, dumping more

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Speaker 3: than a month's worth of rain in some places and

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Speaker 3: killing unfortunately, killing more than one hundred people, including twenty

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Speaker 3: seven children. According to officials at least one hundred and

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Speaker 3: sixty people are still known to be missing. I mean,

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Speaker 3: this is devastation, you know, and it's you know, how

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Speaker 3: do you even talk about this without just it's just

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Speaker 3: so sacrid.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's just so sad that it happened so quickly.

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Speaker 3: I've seen people online, you know, I'm really into the

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Speaker 3: chatter online. That's kind of my thing. And people are

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Speaker 3: just so cruel online, you know, like why couldn't they

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Speaker 3: just run away from it? And I mean, this stuff

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Speaker 3: happens in an instant. You know, you're normal, and then

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden there's thirty feet of water coming

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Speaker 3: at you. This isn't something that sneaks up, you know,

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Speaker 3: and no one's really seven from it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's incredible, body brutal and.

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Speaker 3: Poor, black or white, it doesn't matter, you know, it's

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Speaker 3: it's it's tragic. So the majority of those killed were

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Speaker 3: in Kerr County, where thirty children have died, including those

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Speaker 3: that can Mystic Camp. Mystic was a Christian girls camp

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Speaker 3: perched you know, on the banks of the Guadalupe River

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Speaker 3: in Texas. It's you know, kid little girls go there

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Speaker 3: to laugh and have fellowship and prayer with you know

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Speaker 3: their other friends and it's just it's just very, very devastating.

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Speaker 3: But we do have some heroes that I think solu

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Speaker 3: to you have really emerged.

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Speaker 2: You know, people are risking their lives, you know, real time,

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Speaker 2: and you know there's several for us to point to

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Speaker 2: right now.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Scott Ruskin is one. Oh my goodness. He yeah,

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Speaker 4: is a Coastguard rescue swimmer. He's based in Corpus Christie

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Speaker 4: and he was deployed to Camp Mystic, which Body was

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Speaker 4: just speaking about, and he said it was one of

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Speaker 4: the most difficult flying conditions he's ever faced. It was

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Speaker 4: the first mission in his one year.

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Speaker 3: Can you believe that he's only twenty six, Yeah, his

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Speaker 3: first mission. What a stud I mean, I mean, that

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Speaker 3: is incredible. So, you know, I mean, obviously this is

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Speaker 3: a tragic situation, but you know, this is a show

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Speaker 3: of tragedy and sometimes it's just a lot, especially when

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Speaker 3: you're talking about children. We wanted to kind of talk

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Speaker 3: about some of the heroes and hype them up a

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Speaker 3: little bit. So in the spirit of that, Scott he's

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Speaker 3: you know, this is his first mission.

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Speaker 4: He says.

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Speaker 3: When I got on the scene, there were two hundred

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Speaker 3: kids looking to someone for comfort and safety. They don't

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Speaker 3: know my experience, or my rank or my age. They

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Speaker 3: just see someone who's here to help. And I had

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Speaker 3: to live up to that. The real heroes, I think

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Speaker 3: are the kids on the ground. I mean, what a guy,

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Speaker 3: what a guy that is a well paved hundred person

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Speaker 3: five kids today, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean, that's a miracle. It reminds me of mister Rogers.

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Speaker 4: Look for the helpers. Yeah, even even in tragedy, even

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Speaker 4: in whatever is happening, look for the helpers. And like

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Speaker 4: Scott Ruskin, they are there.

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Speaker 2: Body brought her a puppy to work today, so I'm sorry.

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Speaker 2: Everybody say hi, I'm sorry. He's married. By the way,

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Speaker 2: he's adorable, so no stress about that. And also, just

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Speaker 2: like to that note, just a quick thing. Listen, these

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Speaker 2: types of disasters are in fact happening so quickly. And

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Speaker 2: again the country is big, and we hope everybody is safe.

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Speaker 2: But like pack year ago, make sure you have your

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Speaker 2: canned food. Make sure you have small bills in your house.

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Speaker 2: It's an important one. Nobody ever has real cash, right,

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Speaker 2: You're if the cash machines go down for some reason

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Speaker 2: and you're having to kind of barter for what money

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Speaker 2: or I mean barter for water. God forbid, you need

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Speaker 2: dollar bills, right, you never have a stack of small

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Speaker 2: bills at the ready and keep your gas tank as

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Speaker 2: full as possible at all times.

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Speaker 3: That's so hard because I just use all my gas

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Speaker 3: as soon as it's in my tank.

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Speaker 2: Of course, all you small bills pizza, you know, it's

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Speaker 2: a true delivery that comes to the door suddenly. You're

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Speaker 2: you know, bouncing into your earthquake kit if you're anything

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Speaker 2: like me. But you know, just something to just be

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Speaker 2: aware of in this hideous wake of tragedy.

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Speaker 3: It's so sad. So just before daybreak on Friday, the

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Speaker 3: fourth of July, like this is a public holiday, like

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Speaker 3: this is a very important holiday for everybody. Right the

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Speaker 3: fourth of July, the river rows twenty six feet in

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Speaker 3: about forty five minutes. That is, I live in Las Vegas, right,

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Speaker 3: So we have a lot of flash flooding here because

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Speaker 3: it's a desert and so the ground is really hard.

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Speaker 3: So the rain when it does rain, it just like slides,

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Speaker 3: it doesn't like get soaked up into the ground. So

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Speaker 3: we have a lot of flash flooding here and I

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Speaker 3: can't listen. It's nothing like what they're experiencing in Texas.

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Speaker 3: But I could be at a red light, and you

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Speaker 3: know those are pretty short, a couple of minutes and

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Speaker 3: it starts raining, literally flash flooding. Stop just rolling down

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Speaker 3: the street. Nothing like twenty seven feet I'm talking like

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Speaker 3: maybe two or three feet, but it happens so quickly,

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Speaker 3: and I witnessed it with.

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Speaker 2: My own eyes and kind of another little small tag

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Speaker 2: along thing that I just actually ordered. We're not promoting

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Speaker 2: this at all. I don't know the brand. We don't

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Speaker 2: know the brand. But you know how you cut yourself

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Speaker 2: out of a seatbelt, God forbid there's a flood or

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Speaker 2: water comes gushing into your car.

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Speaker 3: Well, I have one of those for my window, a puncture.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh really, what do you do for that? You

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Speaker 2: just it's like a little no out with it.

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Speaker 3: It's like a pole and it also has a compass

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Speaker 3: and a fishing pole on it. But it's like a

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Speaker 3: survival tool. I don't know why, but because of the

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Speaker 3: flash flooding, you stab your window with it and it

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Speaker 3: shatters the window so you can get out.

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Speaker 2: That's clever. I'm yeah, okay, adding that to my link.

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Speaker 4: We should do a whole We should do a whole segment,

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Speaker 4: and you know, Stephanie said, nothing is sponsored or anything

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Speaker 4: but just nuts and bolts of what to have, because yeah,

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Speaker 4: you never know when.

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Speaker 3: One of the best things I bought was it's a

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Speaker 3: little portable radio like the analog radio, AMFM radio, a

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Speaker 3: solar charger. I mean, it was fourteen dollars and it works,

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Speaker 3: and it winds up. You wind it up so that

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Speaker 3: you don't even need batteries, and it also petrifies me.

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Speaker 2: But it's also like you, if we're prepared, there's something

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Speaker 2: slightly comforting in that. Not that there's anything comforting about

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Speaker 2: what is happening right now, but you know, it does

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Speaker 2: happen in a flash, so it really done. You know again,

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Speaker 2: our hearts are with you, Texas. We can't say that enough.

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Speaker 4: Absolutely, and we'll keep everyone up to date as more

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Speaker 4: information comes out. This is true crime Tonight. We are

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Speaker 4: on iHeartRadio. I'm Courtney Armstrong here as always with Body

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Speaker 4: Moven and Stephanie Leidecker, and right now we're talking about

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Speaker 4: how to keep yourself safe in all kinds of situations.

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Speaker 4: We will also be talking about Bonnie Woodward and many

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Speaker 4: other things. We want to hear your thoughts, give us

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Speaker 4: a call. We're at eighty to eighty three to one

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Speaker 4: crime or hit us on the talkbacks on the iHeartRadio app.

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Speaker 4: You go to the top right corner and do you

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Speaker 4: just leave us a message and you're on the show

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Speaker 4: and we have a talkback right now.

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Speaker 5: High ladies, first time caller. This was Brian Kahlberger planned

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Speaker 5: this way in advance, if you remember correctly, his professor

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Speaker 5: knew Bundy, talked to Bundy and wrote an article or

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Speaker 5: books or whatever on Bundy. That is why he chose

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Speaker 5: Washington State so he could pick her brain on more

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Speaker 5: on Ted Bundy.

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Speaker 2: There was a big article about this. Yeah, even at

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Speaker 2: KAT we have interviewed her specifically, and look that can

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Speaker 2: be seen both ways. You know, she caught a lot

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Speaker 2: of heat early days, like oh, she gave the syllabus

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Speaker 2: to a killer and no, she was teaching a really smart,

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Speaker 2: wonderful class that was highly reputable. And on the flip

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Speaker 2: of that, you know, who could know that Brian Coberger

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Speaker 2: really was taking that information and applying it as a massacre.

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Speaker 3: Right, and you know this, I could talk about this

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Speaker 3: for two hours, I mean easily, right, this is like

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Speaker 3: my favorite subject. Yes, but yeah, you know, I did

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Speaker 3: he plan to go to the sales because she was there?

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Speaker 3: I think did he choose that because she is an

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Speaker 3: excellent professor, you know, and or did he choose it

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Speaker 3: because of Ted Bundy?

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Speaker 4: Interesting? I mean, who's to know. I think we all

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Speaker 4: slightly predict or at least I certainly do. There will

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Speaker 4: be interviews. I think Brian Coburger, you know, given the

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Speaker 4: fact that he searched for himself so many times after

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Speaker 4: the murders and was looking for parallels with Bundy and

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Speaker 4: posing like Bundy, I think he's going to be a

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Speaker 4: person who wants to have the attention and peraps through

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Speaker 4: that attention, we will at least garner something into what

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Speaker 4: was going on in his brain, and maybe we can

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Speaker 4: learn something from that. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I kind of sometimes wonder if that wasn't part of

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Speaker 3: all of this, right for the glory grab right for

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Speaker 3: him to be you know, studied and you know, be great. Listen,

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Speaker 3: he will never be great. He will never never, he

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Speaker 3: will never be great as what he took. First of all,

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Speaker 3: the victims were, by all accounts, incredible human beings, and

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Speaker 3: he will never never attain what they did in their

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Speaker 3: short lives, you know, throughout his life.

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Speaker 2: That's so true. And by the way, Courtney, I misremembering this.

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Speaker 2: Didn't we know for a fact that he was listening

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Speaker 2: to the Idaho Massacre podcast behind closed doors, but in

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Speaker 2: being in prison or in jail when he was still

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Speaker 2: in Moscow.

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Speaker 4: We were told that. We were absolutely told that I'm

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Speaker 4: try yeah, which was very serie and we talked about it.

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Speaker 4: Oh my god, it was an.

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Speaker 3: Odd you'll let me ask you something.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Does it make you feel because immediately I'm like, oh

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Speaker 3: my god, he heard me talking about him. That's immediately

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Speaker 3: what I go to. What do you go to when

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Speaker 3: you hear something like that? Do you get grossed out?

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Speaker 4: Because I do. I got skeeveed out. That's exactly I

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Speaker 4: got schemed out of just thinking of him hearing my voice.

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Speaker 4: I don't know my voice near yeah, yeah, yeah, horrific murderer.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I was just a guest and I'm creeped out.

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Speaker 6: Oh.

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Speaker 2: It actually definitely scared us. It really does make you

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Speaker 2: think for a moment, is somebody getting a kick out

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Speaker 2: of this? And that's unnerving. Now at the time, listen

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Speaker 2: now as we say this, it's very scary. What if

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Speaker 2: you're innocent. At the time, we didn't know if he

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Speaker 2: was guilty or not guilty. This was early on season one.

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Speaker 2: I mean, maybe I'm the only one that was a

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Speaker 2: little slow to this, but at the time, maybe he

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Speaker 2: was listening to everything regarding his case because he wanted

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Speaker 2: to know what the chatter was. Sure that kind of tracks, right,

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Speaker 2: That's how we sort of justified not being scared by it.

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Speaker 2: But it does speak to what we now know is

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Speaker 2: more of maybe somebody looking for more glory after all

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Speaker 2: is said and done. And you know, that's a scary,

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Speaker 2: unnerving piece of this case.

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Speaker 3: Like see, he dedicated his life to his education, right, well,

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Speaker 3: the latter part of his life to his education, and

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Speaker 3: I mean he could have gone on to do great things.

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Speaker 3: And here we are.

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Speaker 4: Here, we are listen, stay tuned. We have a big night.

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Speaker 4: We're going to be getting into to the Sandra Birchmore

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Speaker 4: case and it's parallels to Karen Reid. We're going to

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Speaker 4: find out more about the Titan submersible and we are

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Speaker 4: hopefully going to be hearing from you. Give us a

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Speaker 4: call eight A eight to three to one crime True

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Speaker 4: Crime Tonight.

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Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio, we're talking

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Speaker 2: true crime all the time. Listen, remember the Titan submersible.

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Speaker 2: It is that terrible tragedy that happened in that submarine.

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Speaker 2: So we're going to be getting a little bit deeper

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Speaker 2: into that case because again, there's so much to take

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Speaker 2: away from that one. And also, Sandra Berchman, this is

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Speaker 2: a case that we talked about a little bit in

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Speaker 2: previous episodes. There's this very real connection between this case

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Speaker 2: from twenty twenty one and the recent Karen Reid case. Courtney,

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Speaker 2: do you want to jump in and give us the

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Speaker 2: update there?

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Speaker 4: Absolutely so. Former police officer Matthew Farewell was charged with

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Speaker 4: killing a woman whose death was originally ruled a suicide.

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Speaker 4: So Sandra Birchmore, who at the time was approximately three

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Speaker 4: months pregnant when she was found dead. This happened in

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Speaker 4: twenty twenty one in Canton, Massachusetts, and she had told

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Speaker 4: before her death officer Matthew Farewell that she was pregnant

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Speaker 4: with his child. So that's the kind of setup. The

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Speaker 4: two of them met eleven years prior, back in twenty ten.

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Speaker 4: Santra birch Moore was only about twelve years old and

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Speaker 4: she had joined the Stouton Police Explorers program and she

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Speaker 4: attended it for several years and Matthew Farewell he was

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Speaker 4: there as a volunteer and that's how they met. So

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Speaker 4: she was very underrated at the time and he obviously

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Speaker 4: was not as a volunteer.

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Speaker 2: Was O.

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Speaker 4: No, he was not. He was, I believe twenty six

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Speaker 4: when it started. A couple of years later twenty twelve.

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Speaker 4: Documents state that Farewell began using different messaging to communicate

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Speaker 4: with her. And at this time she was fifteen, he

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Speaker 4: was twenty six. So again a big difference.

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Speaker 2: Now that's like not just a big difference. Who hasn't

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Speaker 2: like chased an older you know, relationship at that age

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Speaker 2: you think you know everything? Fifteen is illegal.

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Speaker 4: Right, Absolutely it is. And he is accused of sexually

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Speaker 4: assaulting Birchmore since she was fifteen years old. It was

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Speaker 4: sometimes it's believed that it was sometimes violent. Definitely sexual

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Speaker 4: relationship between the two of them, and also Officer Ferrell

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Speaker 4: would tell birch Moore, oh, you need to delete these

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Speaker 4: types of messages from her phone and from Facebook. So

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Speaker 4: he was well aware this was.

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Speaker 3: He knew what he was doing was wrong. He acknowledged

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Speaker 3: it of right or yeah, disgusting.

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Speaker 6: Kay.

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Speaker 4: So back in October of twenty twenty, and this is

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Speaker 4: according to court documents, Sandra Birchmore she he told Officer

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Speaker 4: Farewell that she was pregnant, that she wanted to keep

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Speaker 4: the child, and she said, I will keep silent about

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Speaker 4: your criminal acts. Basically, I won't let anyone know that

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Speaker 4: when I was underage we were having sex, which, as

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Speaker 4: you said, Stephanie, is illegal. So shortly after so that

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Speaker 4: was in October that she said I want to have

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Speaker 4: a baby with you. In December of twenty twenty, she

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Speaker 4: learned that she was pregnant, and a month after that,

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Speaker 4: this is January twenty twenty one, Sandra Birchmore's friend actually

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Speaker 4: called the police department where the officer worked, to report

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Speaker 4: this relationship, and apparently Officer Farewell was enraged. Very shortly

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Speaker 4: after that, Officer Farewell he asked Sandra Birchmore, can I

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Speaker 4: have a key to your apartment? This is again in Campton, Massachusetts,

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Speaker 4: and he begins what people alleged to be casing her apartment,

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Speaker 4: and once he had access, he was inspecting her bedroom.

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Speaker 4: He was going through her closets and Sandra Birchmark. She

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Speaker 4: found this behavior understandably really upsetting. She mentioned it to friends,

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Speaker 4: and what he has been found guilty of is strangling

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Speaker 4: her in her apartment and then staging it to look

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Speaker 4: like she committed suicide. But security video from her apartment

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Speaker 4: shows the very last day Sandra was alive, that security

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Speaker 4: video from the lobby showing him entering the building and

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Speaker 4: he was wearing a hoodie and a surgical mask.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he's trying to kind of I've seen this video.

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Speaker 3: He's trying to kind of like hide his identity, right,

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Speaker 3: Like he's trying to like shield who it actually is,

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Speaker 3: because you can see him go into the lobby, press

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Speaker 3: the elevator button, get on. Yeah, he's trying to like

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Speaker 3: he knows the cameras.

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Speaker 2: All right. Well, he's smart, you know, he's you know,

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Speaker 2: he's a law enforcement officer, that's right.

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Speaker 3: Okay.

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Speaker 4: A couple of days after the last time that Sandra

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Speaker 4: was seen alive, Canton police officers conduct a well being check.

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Speaker 4: She has found and they said she had been dead

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Speaker 4: for days and it was ruled again a suicide. So

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Speaker 4: here's where we are. And the officer, he is a

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Speaker 4: married father of two with a third who was born

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Speaker 4: just days after or even hours after Sandra Bertmore's death,

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Speaker 4: which is really an insane time for anybody who's about

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Speaker 4: to expect a child. It's learned of the investigation that

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Speaker 4: the officer he made and deleted Google searches like can

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Speaker 4: you revoke consent in Massachusetts?

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Speaker 3: You can't give consent if you're underage.

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Speaker 4: If you're underage, you that's right. He Ultimately, so this

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Speaker 4: disgraced officer, he resigned from the police department during this

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Speaker 4: ongoing probe, and the police chief reveals investigations of an

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Speaker 4: internal investigation. Now four officers have been accused and denied

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Speaker 4: of having relationships with this pool or girl.

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Speaker 2: How many four four? Oh my gosh, yeah, counted one, two,

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Speaker 2: three four. And by the way, it was speculated then

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Speaker 2: and got a lot of heat, but frankly the Karen

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Speaker 2: Read connection, which will get too soon, kind of overshadowed

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Speaker 2: that a little bit potentially.

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Speaker 4: That's right. So this girl, who again joined the program

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Speaker 4: when she was twelve years old to you know, learn

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Speaker 4: about police officers, gets embroiled into all of this. Ultimately,

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Speaker 4: a federal investigation revealed in their case against Matthew Farwell

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Speaker 4: that he did go and indeed murder her. And it

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Speaker 4: has since come out very recently in a DNA analysis

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Speaker 4: that Sandra Birchmore's unborn child was not actually fathered by

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Speaker 4: Matthew Farwell.

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Speaker 3: Really did they say, who's did it belong to? Any

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Speaker 3: of the four they did?

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Speaker 4: That has not been revealed, That is not known. But

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Speaker 4: the federal prosecutor, he was quoted saying, listen, he doesn't

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Speaker 4: have to be the father. He just has to think

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Speaker 4: that he's the father, and that is what gives him

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Speaker 4: the motive to be homicidal.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, you're listening to true crime tonight on iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 3: I'm Body Moven and I'm here with Stephanie Leidecker and

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Speaker 3: Courtney Armstrong and we're in the middle of talking about

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Speaker 3: the murder of Sandra Birchmore. Courtney was there there's something

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Speaker 3: this this police officer that is accused of murdering Sandra Burchmore.

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Speaker 3: He has a twin brother, right, there's something with him.

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Speaker 3: Because I followed this a while ago, Yeah, lost track

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Speaker 3: of it. There's something with his brother. He recently like

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Speaker 3: lost police certificate. Is he involved in some way because

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Speaker 3: he basically can't be a cop anymore.

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Speaker 4: Do we know his twin? I don't, but we should definitely.

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Speaker 3: Well maybe somebody out there does and they can call us.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, please like jump in and join the conversation.

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Speaker 3: I'm going from memory here.

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Speaker 2: And just in case you don't know that Karen Reid

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Speaker 2: case too, because that is a big ticket item because

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Speaker 2: that's obviously the retrial that happened so recently. Karen Reid

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Speaker 2: was you know, charged and was tried twice for allegedly

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Speaker 2: murdering or running over her then boyfriend with her lexus

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Speaker 2: on a very stormy night. She since has been released.

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Speaker 2: It was a miss, you know, she was found not guilty.

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Speaker 2: And remember that Canton police officers. It's been a little

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Speaker 2: bit brought into question about how that investigation was handled,

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Speaker 2: particularly because the victim in that case, John O'Keefe, was

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Speaker 2: also an officer and they were at this house and

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Speaker 2: a party. Also many officers, same department, also same prosecutor

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Speaker 2: as her case. So there are some very real parallels

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Speaker 2: between the Karen Reid case. Impossible law enforcement misconduct.

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Speaker 4: That's right. It's the Norfolk County DA's office, Stephanie that

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Speaker 4: handled both cases. So that does absolutely raise concerns from

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Speaker 4: the public, and it should about is their conflict of interest,

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Speaker 4: is their personal bias, is their lack of transparency, and

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Speaker 4: these prosecutors are to a default protecting their own. So

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Speaker 4: it's a really it's a pretty messy case. Quickly, I

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Speaker 4: just got re caught up. Yeah, so he was one

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Speaker 4: of the four. The twin brother was one of the four.

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Speaker 2: I knew the twin brothers were both having a relationship,

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Speaker 2: a sexual relationship with an underaged girl who mysteriously is

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Speaker 2: found dead by suicide just right after announcing that she

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Speaker 2: may be pregnant with one of the officers. By the way,

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Speaker 2: it is important to note, Courty, I don't want us

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Speaker 2: to because I got a little stuck on this fact

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Speaker 2: myself earlier today. It was discovered today that this particular

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Speaker 2: officer that allegedly was impregnated this young girl, that those

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Speaker 2: tests came back negative. However, that's today. He was arrested

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Speaker 2: a while ago and thought perhaps or at least had

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Speaker 2: been told perhaps right that he was the father. So

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Speaker 2: whether he was or wasn't is kind of a little irrelevant,

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Speaker 2: although very important, and we don't want to disparage anybody.

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Speaker 2: So again, allegedly allegedly allegedly, he claims his innocence, but

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Speaker 2: as long as he was under the feeling that he

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Speaker 2: was potentially going to be outed for having a relationship

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Speaker 2: with an underage girl, that still tracks.

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Speaker 4: It does.

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Speaker 3: And I want to just be clear. The twin brother

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Speaker 3: that also had a relationship with her didn't start the

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Speaker 3: relationshipship until after she was eighteen, so he did not

433
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 3: still brothers. I know it's weird, but yeah, I just

434
00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:20,840
Speaker 3: want to.

435
00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,080
Speaker 4: I mean, it's a it's a good clarification.

436
00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 3: I don't want to accuse this guy of something that

437
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 3: you know, but it was still inappropriate though, So he

438
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:32,480
Speaker 3: got desertified. He's no longer a police officer.

439
00:22:32,720 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 7: Wow.

440
00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,719
Speaker 4: Okay, probably because she was in the program run by

441
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,000
Speaker 4: the police and it as a minor. So we will

442
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 4: continue to be following this. There's a court hearing. It's

443
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:46,359
Speaker 4: scheduled for August fourth, so a couple of weeks from now.

444
00:22:46,760 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 4: And again, the other officers have yet to be charged

445
00:22:50,520 --> 00:22:52,960
Speaker 4: with while this investigation continues.

446
00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:56,879
Speaker 3: So yeah, and he doesn't. The twin brothers not facing

447
00:22:56,880 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 3: any criminal charges. He just can't be a cop anymore.

448
00:22:59,400 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: Wow. By the way, what a bummer for the great

449
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:04,200
Speaker 2: cops that are doing such good work in that department

450
00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:06,720
Speaker 2: and also in the area. So this is not a

451
00:23:06,760 --> 00:23:09,960
Speaker 2: stain on many, but it's important that we sort of

452
00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,680
Speaker 2: discuss the ones that are sort of spoiling the pool, right.

453
00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:14,720
Speaker 3: I want to know who the other three were. Were

454
00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,000
Speaker 3: they all cops or you know, what's the situation there.

455
00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,119
Speaker 3: I'm going to follow up on that.

456
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think a lot more will come to

457
00:23:20,880 --> 00:23:23,120
Speaker 4: clarity as the trial begins.

458
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:26,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure. Well, coming up next, we're going to

459
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,520
Speaker 3: be diving into the Titan submersible explosion. Why did it

460
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,000
Speaker 3: continue to operate despite so many people saying there were problems?

461
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:34,639
Speaker 3: Don't forget to give us a call at eight eight

462
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:37,400
Speaker 3: eight thirty one crime, or set us a talk back

463
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:39,720
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app with your thoughts on any of

464
00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:41,680
Speaker 3: the cases we're discussing, or let us know if the

465
00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:44,000
Speaker 3: case you want us to start digging into. Thank you

466
00:23:44,040 --> 00:23:45,720
Speaker 3: so much, stay right here, it's your friends.

467
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:58,600
Speaker 2: No, Welcome back to true Crime Tonight on iHeartRadio. We're

468
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,920
Speaker 2: talking true crime all the time, so listen. Later on

469
00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,000
Speaker 2: the show, we're going to be talking about the Titan

470
00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 2: submarine and the tragedy that occurred there. Also the Barry

471
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:09,520
Speaker 2: more few case some new developments potentially on his secret

472
00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: life in Arizona. But first we have a talkback.

473
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 8: Hey body, Courtney and Stephanie. I'm Adrian from Australia. I

474
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:19,680
Speaker 8: wondered if you'd heard about the mushroom trial everyone's talking

475
00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:23,080
Speaker 8: about down Under. The verdicts came from the jury this

476
00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:25,959
Speaker 8: week was a very exciting end to trial. It's been

477
00:24:26,000 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 8: going on for about ten weeks now. It's a weird

478
00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 8: case where a woman served a deadly meal that killed

479
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 8: three of her relatives. Look it up mushroom trial Australia.

480
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:37,879
Speaker 2: Wow. First of all, how exciting that you can listen

481
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 2: in Australia. Thank you all so much for leaving that

482
00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: talk back. I'm not familiar with that case at all.

483
00:24:42,800 --> 00:24:45,960
Speaker 2: That she may be kill people with her mushrooms in

484
00:24:46,040 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 2: her meals.

485
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,639
Speaker 4: Yes, with her beef Wellington. By the way, hearing your accent, A,

486
00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 4: it is very cool that we're in Australia and b

487
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 4: I'd lived there for six months and it's maybe my

488
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:56,800
Speaker 4: favorite sound on earthysis.

489
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,879
Speaker 3: All my producers for the mall were it was an

490
00:24:58,880 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 3: Australian production company and so when I hear an Australian accent,

491
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 3: it makes me so warmentingly because they were such lovely people.

492
00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, what is it about an Australian accent love an

493
00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 2: Australian everyone, Yeah, yeah, no doubt, no yelland also so fun.

494
00:25:13,880 --> 00:25:15,120
Speaker 2: Oh I loved you so great.

495
00:25:15,200 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 3: I loved to But the mushroom, I mean, this was

496
00:25:17,320 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 3: a cool This was They deliberated for six days, that was.

497
00:25:21,280 --> 00:25:22,480
Speaker 3: That's a long deliberation.

498
00:25:22,720 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 4: That is.

499
00:25:23,359 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: So she's accused of killing like her mother in law,

500
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 3: Courtney and her.

501
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 4: Yeah it's Aaron Patterson. She's fifty years old. She is Australian,

502
00:25:32,680 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 4: just like you, listener. And she was found guilty after

503
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 4: that long deliberation body of murdering three folks attempting to

504
00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 4: murder a fourth by serving them beef Wellington, least with

505
00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 4: these poisonous death cap mushrooms.

506
00:25:46,200 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 3: Death cap mushrooms intentionally.

507
00:25:48,320 --> 00:25:52,320
Speaker 2: It wasn't as though she was like unknowingly well she

508
00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 2: said deadly beef Wellington.

509
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 3: She says that. She says she was just trying to

510
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,199
Speaker 3: improve the taste of the beef Wellington, and so she

511
00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:02,159
Speaker 3: added these mushrooms, right.

512
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 4: That's right. However, the jury disagrees, as did the prosecutor.

513
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 4: So the defense did claim total accident, but the prosecution

514
00:26:12,280 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 4: said that she had deliberately used them, and this was

515
00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 4: she served this lunch to her former in laws Don

516
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,240
Speaker 4: and Gale said yeah, and her mother in law's sister.

517
00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 4: Those three humans died and then Heather's husband, Ian Wilkinson

518
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 4: was alive, but was also an attempted murder.

519
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,240
Speaker 2: So she was just trying to wipe out her in

520
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 2: laws in her husband's entire family with mushrooms. This is incredible.

521
00:26:41,760 --> 00:26:43,959
Speaker 3: But here's why I don't Here's what I don't know,

522
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:45,919
Speaker 3: And maybe our listener can call.

523
00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 2: In, Yeah, call us back, we need more info.

524
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:51,119
Speaker 3: What I don't know is if her defense was, oh,

525
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:53,160
Speaker 3: I was just trying to improve the taste, why didn't

526
00:26:53,160 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 3: she get sick because she didn't eat it right? Obviously?

527
00:26:57,440 --> 00:27:00,080
Speaker 2: Sometimes, I mean I cook a lot and for so

528
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,480
Speaker 2: all set I'm terrible at it. So Courtney Armstrong is

529
00:27:03,520 --> 00:27:06,080
Speaker 2: a great cook. Body you and I maybe I need

530
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 2: to I'm going to die, right, I cannot cook. It

531
00:27:08,920 --> 00:27:12,199
Speaker 2: would kill intentionally with our food, you know it? Just

532
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: I mean, I know enough to know that a certain

533
00:27:14,880 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 2: mushroom may not be appropriate.

534
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 4: Well, the evidence suggests that Aaron Patterson did because she

535
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,280
Speaker 4: had online searches about these quote death cap mushrooms. No,

536
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:30,320
Speaker 4: and she also admitted to dumping out a food dehydrator

537
00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 4: and lying about it. So no, I don't think it

538
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 4: was an accidental. Let me spice up my Wellington and

539
00:27:35,560 --> 00:27:37,200
Speaker 4: it was an accident, not the.

540
00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 2: Case, tragic story. I'm so glad we got tipped off

541
00:27:41,200 --> 00:27:41,640
Speaker 2: to that one.

542
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 4: Yes, and she's facing a potential life sentence and we

543
00:27:44,800 --> 00:27:47,040
Speaker 4: will definitely come back when we know what the sentence is.

544
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:48,800
Speaker 4: But thank you so much for that talk though.

545
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. I love that we're in Australia. I had no idea.

546
00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,520
Speaker 3: That's exciting. It's so fun. So I'm going to be

547
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 3: talking about the Titan. Yes, you guys, I know very little. Yeah,

548
00:27:57,560 --> 00:28:00,879
Speaker 3: I listen, this is kind of getting crazy town with

549
00:28:00,880 --> 00:28:03,480
Speaker 3: this Titan a little bit. There's been a couple documentaries

550
00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 3: that have come out about the Titan and about all

551
00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 3: the experts who worked on the Titan, because listen, these

552
00:28:09,520 --> 00:28:12,200
Speaker 3: are really smart people. There's obviously experts in their field

553
00:28:12,520 --> 00:28:15,000
Speaker 3: that are building this and you know, consulting on it

554
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:17,760
Speaker 3: and working on the boat that has it, that dumps

555
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:19,919
Speaker 3: it into the ocean and all that. Well, apparently the

556
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 3: guy that ran it stocked and rushed. So his goal

557
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 3: was to use like super cutting edge technology to open

558
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: up the deep sea for civilians. Right, It's kind of

559
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 3: like SpaceX, you know, how Elon Musk is opening up

560
00:28:34,400 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 3: or trying, you know, for regular people to go into space.

561
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 3: He was kind of doing this for you know, the

562
00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,440
Speaker 3: unexplored depths of the sea, because there's you know, the

563
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 3: ocean is completely un explored. So he that was his

564
00:28:46,840 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 3: goal of ocean Gate was to make you know, the

565
00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:52,719
Speaker 3: titan accessible or the Titanic accessible to everyone. Like how

566
00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 3: exciting would that be? Never for me, a claustrophobic, I

567
00:28:55,520 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 3: would die. However, other people really want to go see it.

568
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:02,480
Speaker 3: So what happened was they use this carbon fiber hole. Listen,

569
00:29:02,520 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 3: I'm not a scientist, It's okay, So keep that in mind.

570
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 2: You are close to a scientist.

571
00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:08,480
Speaker 3: I'm a data scientist.

572
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I really are. So I'm edger in my seat

573
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: right now. I'm buying all there's this.

574
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,080
Speaker 3: Carbon fiber hole, this carbon fiber hole, and it's it's

575
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 3: experimental material that's used because it lowers like the cost

576
00:29:21,160 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 3: of everything, right, so obviously they're going to choose this,

577
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 3: but it's never really worked at these depths with this pressure. Okay,

578
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 3: So it can't constantly withstand the pressure of the depth

579
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:35,000
Speaker 3: that the Titanic is at. And there's two of these

580
00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:37,440
Speaker 3: holes that were built for the Titan submersiabule. Because the

581
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 3: first one cracked, yes, first one cracked, right, yes, And

582
00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 3: expert after expert after expert tried to warn him like,

583
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,239
Speaker 3: this is not the this is not sustainable, this is

584
00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 3: going to kill people.

585
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: And it's not safe.

586
00:29:51,720 --> 00:29:55,920
Speaker 3: And it's not safe. And so ocean Gate equipped the

587
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,360
Speaker 3: Titan with the all these internal acoustic monitoring systems to

588
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 3: detect real time i'm sounds from the whole such as

589
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 3: like creeks and cracks and pops and doodads right, indicating

590
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 3: like stress of the whole. And the system was part

591
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:13,120
Speaker 3: of oceans Gates real time whole health monitoring is what

592
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 3: they called it. And it's intended to alert the crew

593
00:30:15,600 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 3: of any microfractures that are happening and listen, with these

594
00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 3: kinds of pressures, a microfracture is a death sentence, right

595
00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 3: of course, I mean you can't, okay. So ocean Gate

596
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:31,960
Speaker 3: used these acoustics to in place of third party certifications

597
00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 3: or traditional pressure vessel testing methods.

598
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 4: So it sounds like corners were being cut just in

599
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,440
Speaker 4: order to get to the great unknown and maybe even

600
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 4: make a name for yourself. If you're the CEO right listen,

601
00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 4: you're listening to True crime tonight. We're talking true crime

602
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,360
Speaker 4: all the time. I'm Courtney. I'm here with Stephanie and Body,

603
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,320
Speaker 4: and we want you to be here with us. Right now.

604
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 4: We're talking about the Titans submersible. But we are up

605
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 4: for anything you are, So give us a call eighty

606
00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 4: eight one crime or send us a talk back. So Body,

607
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 4: in terms of potentially cutting corners, didn't. Several employees express

608
00:31:08,240 --> 00:31:09,240
Speaker 4: safety concerns.

609
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: Oh and had to be like lost very impactful important jobs.

610
00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, like really important.

611
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 2: There are important people too that were scientists.

612
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:22,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. I watched a documentary. I think it was on HBO.

613
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:23,800
Speaker 2: The Netflix one has very good.

614
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:25,680
Speaker 3: I haven't seen that one yet, but I watched the

615
00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 3: one on HBO, and there there was a lady who's

616
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:32,840
Speaker 3: like a really smart lady. I can't remember what her

617
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 3: role was, but she was like literally let go and

618
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 3: she's on the ship, like she took a little booie

619
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:42,160
Speaker 3: and left because there was a rush, yeah, or rushed

620
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,680
Speaker 3: off didn't. He was like, it's kind of been explained

621
00:31:44,720 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: like a cult. Either get in line or you're out,

622
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 3: like he was. He would ignore them, he would threaten them,

623
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:52,280
Speaker 3: or he would fire him. He straight up said that

624
00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 3: it would be nothing for him to spend fifty grand

625
00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 3: to ruin someone's life. He proceeded to put money where

626
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:01,680
Speaker 3: his mouth was. After David Lockridge, he was the head

627
00:32:01,720 --> 00:32:04,920
Speaker 3: operator of the company's submercibles, was fired after expressing his

628
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 3: concerns about the safety of the vehicle. This guy, Lockridge

629
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:11,360
Speaker 3: proceeded to file an OSHA complaint, expressing his consounds like

630
00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 3: he went to OSHA. Yeah he was ocean Gate, to

631
00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: which ocean Gate responded by countersuing him for breach of contract.

632
00:32:19,800 --> 00:32:22,920
Speaker 3: So yeah, Oh and my friend Michelle by the way,

633
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: the science teacher, she's incredible that I told you guys

634
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: about before. Yeah, she said they bought they she's obsessed

635
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:31,719
Speaker 3: with the Titan, you guys, Okay, So she just texted

636
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,920
Speaker 3: me and she said they bought expired carbon fiber. So

637
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:39,160
Speaker 3: carbon fiber is like literally fiber, it's intertwined and it

638
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 3: could it can go bad.

639
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,000
Speaker 2: And he knew it, by the way, he knew cutting

640
00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,560
Speaker 2: every corner. It wasn't as though he was operating in

641
00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 2: a vacuum. He was operating with real information in front

642
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: of him. And there has been chatter or it was alleged, allegedly,

643
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 2: allegedly allegedly that this guy's Courtney Armstrong's favorite word of megalomania.

644
00:32:56,880 --> 00:33:00,120
Speaker 4: Megalomania, that's what yes, you did was.

645
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 2: A megalomaniac or a narcissist who was like a one

646
00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 2: track mind and had you know, was putting pennies before humans,

647
00:33:08,000 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 2: but also that he may have had a death wish.

648
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:12,120
Speaker 2: You know, there was that infamous video if you guys

649
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,240
Speaker 2: haven't seen it of when this occurred, which was such

650
00:33:15,240 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 2: a huge tragedy. Remember there was.

651
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,880
Speaker 3: A father and a son, many people was coming to Laysia.

652
00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:22,480
Speaker 3: I was cut off from society when this happened. I

653
00:33:22,520 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 3: always have any idea.

654
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, awful, and nobody knew where he was. And then

655
00:33:26,240 --> 00:33:28,840
Speaker 2: we now know that there was a video of his

656
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,760
Speaker 2: wife who was watching and there was this boom that

657
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 2: was very unusual and allegedly allegedly allegedly she really was

658
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,400
Speaker 2: not very reactive, as though he was on a death

659
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,720
Speaker 2: wish and was putting these other humans in this in.

660
00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 2: They're enthusiasts, right, They're like, we love the Titanic. This

661
00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:49,000
Speaker 2: is their wish to be able to have this moment,

662
00:33:49,160 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: and he has taken advantage of them with potentially a

663
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,520
Speaker 2: wish to die in his own and go out big.

664
00:33:54,760 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 4: I wonder, and I don't know, and I'm excited to

665
00:33:56,720 --> 00:33:59,040
Speaker 4: watch all of these documentaries. You guys have me very

666
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,960
Speaker 4: fired up about this, But I wonder if it's a

667
00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 4: death wish. Again, I don't know this man. I just

668
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 4: heard his name for the first time, or is it

669
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 4: You want to believe so firmly that what you have created,

670
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 4: you are the one to provide greatness to the world,

671
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 4: to explore the deep seas, and you believe even in

672
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 4: the face of evidence.

673
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:21,200
Speaker 3: They were using these acoustics that you mentioned as like

674
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:23,920
Speaker 3: they're warning and you just can't do that. You have

675
00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:27,760
Speaker 3: to have actual systems in place because an implosion happens

676
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 3: in milliseconds. In milliseconds, and this is true crime adjacent

677
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,040
Speaker 3: because the US United States Coastguard is looking at filing

678
00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 3: criminal charges.

679
00:34:36,600 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 2: So Diddy, I know, we've taken a Diddy break for

680
00:34:38,840 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: a hot minute, but there's been some new developments today

681
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 2: in terms of his sentencing hearing. So, body, what do

682
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: you have?

683
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,000
Speaker 3: I mean, this is kind of news to me too.

684
00:34:46,160 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 4: Today.

685
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 3: This happened today, and I don't really know all the

686
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 3: wonderful details, but I'm going to go through it pretty quickly.

687
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: So today there was a hearing for to hear arguments

688
00:34:56,600 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 3: on why Diddy should receive an earlier sentencing date, but

689
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 3: it was adjourned without any arguments being presented. So defense

690
00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:07,440
Speaker 3: attorneys and federal prosecutors initially agreed to a September twenty

691
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 3: second sentencing date, so they scheduled his hearing to propose

692
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,160
Speaker 3: his date to the judge. Well, all of a sudden,

693
00:35:13,480 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 3: they just said abandoned the hearing and said, noah, we're good.

694
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:21,959
Speaker 3: And so it's not immediately clear why the defense apparently abandoned,

695
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 3: at least for now, their attempt to secure expedited sentencing.

696
00:35:26,480 --> 00:35:28,560
Speaker 3: But it was abandoned, and nobody knows why.

697
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:31,160
Speaker 2: Well, they're probably getting their ducks in a row because

698
00:35:31,160 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 2: they want did He home much sooner, you know, to

699
00:35:33,200 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 2: see the defense's team. You know, October seems like a

700
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: lifetime away, given he was found not guilty. If you

701
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: haven't been following did He was found guilty on the

702
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,400
Speaker 2: major charges that would have put him behind bars for life.

703
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 2: He has been brought up on guilty charges for the

704
00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,240
Speaker 2: two lesser charges. And listen, this is a very divisive topic.

705
00:35:50,440 --> 00:35:53,160
Speaker 2: Don't get me started. But you know, look, he's been

706
00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: found not guilty. Now he's serving time and was denied bail.

707
00:35:56,280 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 2: Is October appropriate? Is December appropriate? Probably according to his

708
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: defense team, tomorrow is appropriate.

709
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 4: But this is very curious to me. And as you said, body,

710
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 4: it's it's just coming out because then apparently attorneys for

711
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:15,040
Speaker 4: both sides sent yet another joint statement, so prosecution defens

712
00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 4: is on board. They sent it to the judge saying, hey,

713
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 4: guess what, you know, we actually agree to what you

714
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 4: originally said, Judge. Let's go ahead and keep what you

715
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 4: said for October third. It's so odd to me.

716
00:36:28,760 --> 00:36:31,480
Speaker 2: Huh, we should have Jarrett Farantino on to discuss this,

717
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: because I don't.

718
00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:33,720
Speaker 4: That is curious. It is curious.

719
00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:35,719
Speaker 2: It doesn't really track. We have to assume that did.

720
00:36:35,719 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: He thought he was going to be maybe home the

721
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 2: night that the initial verdict came in. He was denied

722
00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:45,919
Speaker 2: bill because you know, Cassie Venturin, another victim, also said

723
00:36:45,920 --> 00:36:48,200
Speaker 2: they felt that they were in danger. Should he be

724
00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:52,520
Speaker 2: sent home? That is something that we all know he did.

725
00:36:52,560 --> 00:36:55,120
Speaker 2: He himself claimed to he was a violent guy, So

726
00:36:55,800 --> 00:36:58,160
Speaker 2: that doesn't really track. I'm so curious if anybody has

727
00:36:58,160 --> 00:37:00,240
Speaker 2: the answer. Call us a three one crime.

728
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 3: And then a juror came out and basically said, yeah.

729
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:05,879
Speaker 3: A juror came out and said that they're kind of

730
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,399
Speaker 3: insulted that people are saying that did he got off

731
00:37:08,400 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 3: because of like celebrity influence, and that you know, the

732
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:15,759
Speaker 3: quote was highly insulting and belittling to the jury and

733
00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: the deliberation process, and that the juror said that they

734
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,480
Speaker 3: heard a legal pundit on Thursday night imply that Comb's

735
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 3: celebrity may have played a role in the verdict. And

736
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,000
Speaker 3: this juror said, you know, we spent over two days deliberating.

737
00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:30,279
Speaker 3: Our decision was based solely on the evidence presented and

738
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:32,520
Speaker 3: how the law is stated. So the juror did not

739
00:37:32,600 --> 00:37:34,239
Speaker 3: want to be named because you know they're going to

740
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 3: get harassed, right absolute, But I can see if I

741
00:37:39,719 --> 00:37:42,239
Speaker 3: can spend you spent what seven and a half eight

742
00:37:42,280 --> 00:37:42,759
Speaker 3: weeks of.

743
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 4: Your life doing a civic duties, doing a civic duty,

744
00:37:46,680 --> 00:37:51,040
Speaker 4: but we'll see I hold out hope. Prosecutor Maureen Comy.

745
00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:54,400
Speaker 4: She has said the only things exceptional about this defendant

746
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 4: are his wealth, violence, and praisiness, and she wants severe incarceration.

747
00:37:59,239 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 2: Wow, and you're listening to True Crime tonight. We're talking

748
00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:04,360
Speaker 2: true crime all the time. We'll be back. If you

749
00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:06,879
Speaker 2: lose any of this, catch us on the podcast right after.

750
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 2: Welcome back to True Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. Courtney, you've

751
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 2: been following this Alexander brothers case in Miami. Well, and

752
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 2: there's a new development there.

753
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 4: Yeah, speaking of trials, we will not be covering. So

754
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 4: we mentioned this just a couple of days ago that

755
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,520
Speaker 4: a guy named o had Fisherman. He had been charged

756
00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 4: with sexual battery. This was along with the Alexander brothers,

757
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:46,320
Speaker 4: Orin and a Laon and it stemmed from an alleged

758
00:38:46,520 --> 00:38:50,239
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen assault. Well, guess what, one day before Charles

759
00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:55,839
Speaker 4: supposed to start, he has been cleared and what Yes,

760
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:59,880
Speaker 4: the charge was dropped. This guy produced O Hot Fisherman.

761
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 4: He produced a timestamp video and it was apparently good

762
00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:06,320
Speaker 4: enough evidence that showed that he was on a boat

763
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 4: close to the place where a woman said she had

764
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 4: been attacked, but it was basically he said, here's my

765
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,400
Speaker 4: video alibi and it's been dropped.

766
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,719
Speaker 3: Wow, if he can prove, if he can prove he

767
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,719
Speaker 3: wasn't there, right, like mm hmm, that's how it should work.

768
00:39:19,840 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 2: And he was being wrongfully accused, yet he had spent

769
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:27,040
Speaker 2: time in custody awaiting this trial. So yeah, that's a travesty.

770
00:39:27,160 --> 00:39:27,719
Speaker 2: What do you make of.

771
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 3: Well, I mean is it a travesty though? I mean,

772
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:31,720
Speaker 3: if he's innocent, he's innocent, right.

773
00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 2: Right, But if you're being wrongfully accused and you have

774
00:39:33,680 --> 00:39:37,479
Speaker 2: to spend time, yeah, awaiting trial, right, grind bars away

775
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 2: from your loved ones and your family and your names

776
00:39:39,640 --> 00:39:41,880
Speaker 2: in the press. And yes, that's absolutely you know your

777
00:39:41,920 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 2: life might be wrecked as a result, and you have

778
00:39:45,280 --> 00:39:48,960
Speaker 2: video proof that you were being wrongly accused. That's dangerous stuff.

779
00:39:49,000 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 3: Oh, it absolutely is, Yes, of course, yes, yes, so.

780
00:39:52,440 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 4: You know this man is off. What will be coming

781
00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:59,800
Speaker 4: is the Alexander brothers will will have their day in

782
00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,800
Speaker 4: unless I guess things shockingly change, and that is set

783
00:40:03,920 --> 00:40:07,440
Speaker 4: for the top of twenty twenty six, for January. And

784
00:40:07,560 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 4: this case involves more than sixty victims who said they

785
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 4: were assaulted by one or more of the brothers. Wow,

786
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 4: so that is all to come and all three of

787
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 4: the Alexander brothers are pleading not guilty. And now as

788
00:40:21,640 --> 00:40:24,440
Speaker 4: we await that trial in twenty twenty six, let's go

789
00:40:24,520 --> 00:40:25,280
Speaker 4: to a talk.

790
00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 9: Back a true grab tonight. I had a quick question.

791
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 9: I was just listening to that standard birche more question,

792
00:40:30,640 --> 00:40:34,080
Speaker 9: and do you guys think psychological abuse or grooming to

793
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 9: be treated on par with physical violence in the sentencing?

794
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 9: Hoping you guys can answer it.

795
00:40:39,800 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 3: I mean grooming for sure. I mean grooming is, yeah,

796
00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:44,360
Speaker 3: one hundred percent.

797
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,720
Speaker 2: What grooming is, just in case someone's not totally aware

798
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 2: of what that word even means, because you know, to

799
00:40:49,920 --> 00:40:52,400
Speaker 2: some it sounds like brushing your hair right and shutting

800
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 2: your legs. You know, really grooming is somebody who's with

801
00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,360
Speaker 2: very big mal intention, who wants to kind of suck

802
00:40:59,480 --> 00:41:02,200
Speaker 2: a victim into their world. It's kind of like, you know,

803
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:05,080
Speaker 2: the guy that's I'm spacing on a good example, but

804
00:41:05,320 --> 00:41:08,880
Speaker 2: you know, promising great things. It's fine, and it's fine

805
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: with people that.

806
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 3: Are steady, you know, young and impressionable and you know,

807
00:41:13,000 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 3: are looking for guidance in their life. And that now

808
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 3: they've got this adult giving them attention and whatnot, and yeah,

809
00:41:19,840 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 3: they're susceptible. And so that's that you're that's grooming. And

810
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 3: you know, I'm sorry, Courney, what oh.

811
00:41:25,560 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 4: It's going to say, Yeah, criminal grooming just more on

812
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:30,640
Speaker 4: what you're saying it is. It's it's manipulative, it's deceptive,

813
00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 4: and it's a process who is employed by you largely predators,

814
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:40,200
Speaker 4: to establish a relationship, an emotional connection with someone who's vulnerable,

815
00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 4: whether they are a minor or whether there's some kind

816
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:46,720
Speaker 4: of at risk adult, and they they start the grooming

817
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 4: process with what feels like a really comfortable dynamic, and

818
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:55,880
Speaker 4: it can manifest into really nefarious things like sexual abuse,

819
00:41:56,040 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 4: like financial fraud or other illegal facts. Right.

820
00:41:59,560 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 3: But you know the issue is going to come into

821
00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 3: because grooming is not physical. It's not something you can see, right,

822
00:42:05,360 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: So you know, courts require evidence beyond a reasonable doubt,

823
00:42:08,600 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 3: which can be hard to obtain in non physical cases.

824
00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:15,359
Speaker 3: You know, it's a slippery slope of concerns, and you know,

825
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:19,640
Speaker 3: some worry that people will over misuse false allegations and

826
00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 3: you know, exaggerated claims without sufficient evidence. So I do

827
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 3: think it's a slippery slope. But when it comes to grooming,

828
00:42:25,760 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 3: I think that absolutely needs to be treated more criminally.

829
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 3: But as far as psychological abuse, it's just hard to

830
00:42:32,239 --> 00:42:35,400
Speaker 3: prove because courts require beyond reasonable doubt. But thanks you

831
00:42:35,400 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 3: for the talk back.

832
00:42:36,040 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 4: That was it was a great dook back, and I

833
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:42,480
Speaker 4: actually I have a hard time even with what you

834
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,000
Speaker 4: just said, body, I don't know that it should be

835
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:50,040
Speaker 4: used more because what is that line and how slippery

836
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 4: is that slope and where do people fall? And how

837
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 4: is it proven?

838
00:42:54,239 --> 00:42:57,480
Speaker 2: That's the thing, and that's why individual there's no real

839
00:42:57,680 --> 00:42:59,680
Speaker 2: broad stroke that you guys going to get into a

840
00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 2: fight right now?

841
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 4: Do you want to?

842
00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 2: No?

843
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,200
Speaker 3: I mean I can see, I've can see why it's

844
00:43:08,239 --> 00:43:11,120
Speaker 3: a problem. I mean I just said why it's a problem.

845
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:14,160
Speaker 3: I can I totally understand. Yea, you know the thing,

846
00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 3: But I mean, do you just let it go forever

847
00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:18,080
Speaker 3: like grooming's okay because.

848
00:43:17,840 --> 00:43:19,719
Speaker 2: You can't prove it. No, it's hard. It's one of

849
00:43:19,760 --> 00:43:22,240
Speaker 2: those things that can become when it's like the perfect

850
00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: example would be in the Epstein case, like we were

851
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,960
Speaker 2: talking about yesterday. PS we're having Lisa Bryant, the director

852
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:32,880
Speaker 2: and executive producer of the Netflix documentary Filthy Rich based

853
00:43:32,920 --> 00:43:37,759
Speaker 2: on this Epstein story tomorrow. Yes, that's right, it's Wednesday tomorrow. Yes,

854
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:40,040
Speaker 2: signe at the time. So just as a heads up,

855
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,480
Speaker 2: but grooming in that example, just for you know, the

856
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 2: clarity would be, you know, Geeling Maxwell, for example, who's

857
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:52,040
Speaker 2: serving time for being maybe Epstein's right hand woman as

858
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 2: a woman to say the young girls, Oh you know,

859
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 2: come it's fine, Oh yeah, come in here, it's fine.

860
00:43:57,080 --> 00:44:00,560
Speaker 2: A little massage, it's fine. That's a grooming pro right.

861
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:04,040
Speaker 2: It's not just like, hey, do something dastardly or do

862
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:08,400
Speaker 2: something illegal, or do something that pushes your boundaries, personal boundaries,

863
00:44:08,400 --> 00:44:11,600
Speaker 2: I might add, it's like little bit slow and steady

864
00:44:11,960 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: and yeah, taking advantage of the vulnerable.

865
00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:17,520
Speaker 4: And this even reminds me of something I don't even

866
00:44:17,520 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 4: remember if we spoke about it on the show or otherwise.

867
00:44:20,400 --> 00:44:24,080
Speaker 4: But there was a documentary I watched. I believe it

868
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,920
Speaker 4: was on Netflix. I believe it was called Quiet on

869
00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:28,560
Speaker 4: the Set, but I'll need to double check.

870
00:44:28,719 --> 00:44:29,040
Speaker 7: Oh.

871
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:31,720
Speaker 2: Perfect. It was a great example of grooming.

872
00:44:31,920 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 4: Yes, and it was child stars in the Nickelodeon sphere.

873
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:40,080
Speaker 4: So there you are, and you have these adult producers

874
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,960
Speaker 4: and these adult actors, and of course your entire trust

875
00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 4: is there and ps your parents. You should feel safe

876
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 4: because your parents are three feet away off set. But

877
00:44:48,200 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 4: that's enough to gain complete trust in these children and

878
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:55,000
Speaker 4: put them in horrible situations.

879
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 3: Why I go to look out for quiet on set?

880
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:00,279
Speaker 3: On HBO Max, Yeah, so this is true crime Tonight

881
00:45:00,320 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 3: on iHeartRadio, I'm body movin And I'm here with Stephanie

882
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,799
Speaker 3: Leidecker and Courtney Armstrong and we're just kind of giving,

883
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,440
Speaker 3: you know, a little update on all the new headlines

884
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 3: for tonight. Courtney, what about the slippery slope that you're

885
00:45:12,239 --> 00:45:15,000
Speaker 3: talking about. Let's I just I just can't. Let's get

886
00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 3: back to fighting. Are fighting again? We need a bell?

887
00:45:19,560 --> 00:45:21,920
Speaker 2: Okay, so edge of my seat, IM right in the middle.

888
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: What's the solution?

889
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 3: We just let this one.

890
00:45:24,520 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: What is the solution?

891
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 4: So I'm not really there yet. I'm still milling the question. However,

892
00:45:30,239 --> 00:45:33,280
Speaker 4: I feel like a lot of people fall into letter

893
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:36,640
Speaker 4: of the law versus spirit of the law. And I

894
00:45:36,680 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 4: find myself usually on the side of letter of the

895
00:45:39,760 --> 00:45:44,880
Speaker 4: law of what is and that's it's a it feels ephemeral,

896
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 4: almost grooming. You know, it's there. How are you proving

897
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 4: it and I don't even know is that illegal?

898
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:52,359
Speaker 2: Yes?

899
00:45:52,440 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 4: I don't know, well it is.

900
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 2: I'm asking if you know the answer to this join

901
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 2: US eight eight eight on crime. But the Didty case

902
00:45:59,719 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: that we been covering, you know, endlessly, including tonight. Listen,

903
00:46:03,600 --> 00:46:06,279
Speaker 2: that's another example. You know, victims were saying that they

904
00:46:06,280 --> 00:46:09,480
Speaker 2: were in this necessary bubble, that they were getting employed

905
00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: within a bubble, or they were in love with somebody

906
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,440
Speaker 2: who lived in a bubble that had violence and drugs in,

907
00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:20,520
Speaker 2: you know, wild inappropriate behavior, and as a result, little

908
00:46:20,520 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: by little, they're meaning the victims, their boundaries were being stretched,

909
00:46:25,920 --> 00:46:28,560
Speaker 2: and next thing you know, you're knee deep into a

910
00:46:28,640 --> 00:46:31,719
Speaker 2: situation that on its nose you would never say yes to.

911
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:34,960
Speaker 2: But you know, slow and steady, slow and steady, suddenly

912
00:46:35,080 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: you're you're in over your head. That's the theory.

913
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:41,440
Speaker 4: I see. I absolutely see what you're saying. I guess

914
00:46:41,440 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 4: for me, going back to the you know, the letter

915
00:46:43,360 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 4: of the law, once it crosses over and you are

916
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 4: into what was actually charged of the fraud, the force

917
00:46:52,320 --> 00:46:55,759
Speaker 4: and coersion. Okay, then there's force, then there's beatings, and

918
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,880
Speaker 4: then there's coercion of I will kick you out of

919
00:46:58,880 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 4: your house. That's word. You know that I understand in

920
00:47:03,239 --> 00:47:05,279
Speaker 4: a sort of black and white manner. Does that make sense?

921
00:47:05,320 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: I think you're I think you're both right. I think.

922
00:47:09,960 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 3: I think you've defended your position. Well, I have an update,

923
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 3: a rather weird one off the wall.

924
00:47:15,840 --> 00:47:19,880
Speaker 2: Jimmy Hoffa, Oh Long Island. Yeah, this is an island,

925
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 2: floor of Long Island. This is I'm from Long Island.

926
00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:23,799
Speaker 2: The haf A story was.

927
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:24,880
Speaker 4: I'm from Detroit.

928
00:47:25,440 --> 00:47:28,879
Speaker 3: Lahafa's Detroit, Like you know, go go go, let's tell

929
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:33,480
Speaker 3: us everything. So has the mystery been potentially solved fifty

930
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 3: years later? Like where he's at? Like, you know, did

931
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:41,400
Speaker 3: Heraldo do the solving in the same do you remember

932
00:47:41,440 --> 00:47:44,360
Speaker 3: that lock and key cabinet? Oh my gosh, okay, so

933
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:47,280
Speaker 3: fifty year old mystery who killed Jimmy Hoffa in Where's

934
00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 3: his Body? Well, a trio of people have come forward.

935
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:52,680
Speaker 3: I saw this actually being reported on News Nation, and

936
00:47:52,719 --> 00:47:53,960
Speaker 3: of course I was like, oh, we got to talk

937
00:47:54,000 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 3: about this because it's just kind of quirky and interesting.

938
00:47:56,960 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 3: So they've come forward claiming to have the answers, and

939
00:47:59,719 --> 00:48:02,960
Speaker 3: they created an event. This is where I get kind

940
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,640
Speaker 3: of like, okay, guys, they created an event by an

941
00:48:05,680 --> 00:48:12,120
Speaker 3: investigative reporter, Scott Bernstein. He's a retired federal prosecutor Richard Convertino,

942
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 3: and a former mobster termed informant Novae Taco. They're going

943
00:48:17,600 --> 00:48:21,840
Speaker 3: to host an eighty minute presentation at Macomb Community College

944
00:48:21,840 --> 00:48:24,960
Speaker 3: that will include the actual name of the person who

945
00:48:25,080 --> 00:48:28,239
Speaker 3: killed Jimmy Hoffa. Now here's the rube.

946
00:48:27,960 --> 00:48:29,640
Speaker 2: You gotta pay to go to the Okay, so give

947
00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,959
Speaker 2: a little of the backstory though to even like, why

948
00:48:32,000 --> 00:48:33,400
Speaker 2: would Jimmy Hoffa be killed in the.

949
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,360
Speaker 3: First place, Well, he was kind of like the union

950
00:48:36,400 --> 00:48:40,960
Speaker 3: guy right in the for the autoworkers Teamsters. Teamsters is

951
00:48:41,400 --> 00:48:45,680
Speaker 3: successful largely in part to things that Jimmy Hoffa did

952
00:48:45,719 --> 00:48:48,359
Speaker 3: back in the day. He's an Indiana native. He spent

953
00:48:48,400 --> 00:48:51,439
Speaker 3: most of his life as a union organizer based out

954
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,600
Speaker 3: of Michigan, and he quickly rose to the ranks within

955
00:48:54,640 --> 00:48:57,920
Speaker 3: the International Brotherhood of Teamsters. He was selected as a

956
00:48:58,000 --> 00:49:02,080
Speaker 3: union's president in the late nineteen fifties. Both Haffa and

957
00:49:02,320 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 3: the union allegedly, allegedly allegedly had a lot of ties

958
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 3: to the mob right, yes, yes, okay, allegedly you know,

959
00:49:11,400 --> 00:49:14,439
Speaker 3: like when you're watching all this, like all those old

960
00:49:14,520 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 3: mob document Haffa is always being brought up. So he

961
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 3: disappeared and hasn't been seen since.

962
00:49:21,239 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: So you know, the theory is that he was buried

963
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: in cement, right, that's where like these cements shoes.

964
00:49:26,320 --> 00:49:28,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what we've heard that's been But here here's

965
00:49:28,880 --> 00:49:30,000
Speaker 3: the thing we're not going to know. We got to

966
00:49:30,000 --> 00:49:31,200
Speaker 3: pay thirty dollars ago this event.

967
00:49:31,239 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 4: We're going to want to.

968
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:34,799
Speaker 2: Know, Okay, so we're going to have to get this answer.

969
00:49:34,520 --> 00:49:37,320
Speaker 4: For We're going to have to I think this money,

970
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:41,080
Speaker 4: it's marketed brilliantly and ps I actually I didn't go

971
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:43,319
Speaker 4: through the entire purchase process, but I wanted to make

972
00:49:43,360 --> 00:49:45,200
Speaker 4: sure it was real, and I did. You can buy

973
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:48,240
Speaker 4: buy a ticket at thirty dollars. But the Detroit News

974
00:49:48,280 --> 00:49:52,719
Speaker 4: they asked one of the presenters, Bernstein, They said, if

975
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 4: you have this information, why haven't you alerted the FBI?

976
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:59,480
Speaker 4: And his response was, the agency already.

977
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:02,800
Speaker 2: Knows, agency already knows famous last words.

978
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,319
Speaker 4: Yeah, so I can't wait. We will come back with

979
00:50:05,360 --> 00:50:07,279
Speaker 4: the conclusion and listen and maybe I'll have egg on

980
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:09,440
Speaker 4: my face and they do know where he is.

981
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,520
Speaker 2: And also some interesting TSA news I know it's been

982
00:50:12,560 --> 00:50:15,520
Speaker 2: a big travel weekend. People are kind of at the

983
00:50:15,560 --> 00:50:19,560
Speaker 2: airport's getting back hopefully from some lovely vacations, and we

984
00:50:19,680 --> 00:50:25,080
Speaker 2: got some interesting information about this tessay. Global entry paperwork.

985
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 2: People have that because they want to be able to

986
00:50:27,640 --> 00:50:31,640
Speaker 2: get through customs very quickly from country to country. And if,

987
00:50:31,640 --> 00:50:34,600
Speaker 2: in fact, you go and get your World Entry pass,

988
00:50:34,760 --> 00:50:36,799
Speaker 2: if you will, it just makes a line so much

989
00:50:36,840 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 2: smarter and quicker because they have your information and you

990
00:50:39,880 --> 00:50:42,000
Speaker 2: have to do an interview in advance, and it's a

991
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,080
Speaker 2: bit of a process. Right, I do not have mine

992
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:46,040
Speaker 2: because it is a bit of a process and you

993
00:50:46,160 --> 00:50:48,560
Speaker 2: have to go in person. But we're just learning, you know.

994
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 2: I'll let you guys give the headline there. But it

995
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 2: does seem like there's some information that you sign which

996
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,880
Speaker 2: also gives away some privacy that might not be travel

997
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:00,720
Speaker 2: related as correct.

998
00:51:01,719 --> 00:51:05,759
Speaker 4: So yeah, the government monitors Global Entry travelers daily, even

999
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,840
Speaker 4: if you aren't traveling, so you do not need to

1000
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:12,400
Speaker 4: board a plane or leave your house. And if you

1001
00:51:12,440 --> 00:51:15,839
Speaker 4: have a Global Entry pass, the federal government can spy

1002
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:18,960
Speaker 4: on you daily. As you said, Stephanie, this little nugget

1003
00:51:19,000 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 4: of information it was kind of quietly revealed in a

1004
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:26,759
Speaker 4: Department of Homeland Security's latest and annual performance report. So

1005
00:51:27,000 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 4: God bless whichever reporter is reading these reports. But it

1006
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 4: didn't just talk about the huge growth in the number

1007
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,759
Speaker 4: of people in these Trusted Traveler programs, the TSA pre

1008
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:40,600
Speaker 4: and Global Entry, but also the number of those travelers

1009
00:51:40,640 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 4: who've been kicked out of the program.

1010
00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's really interesting. So I guess the assertion there

1011
00:51:45,800 --> 00:51:48,839
Speaker 2: is that if you have this entry card, you think

1012
00:51:48,880 --> 00:51:51,520
Speaker 2: it's for I'm just using this as a silly example. Hey,

1013
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to Partis and going to be in France,

1014
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,520
Speaker 2: I'm coming back into the United States. We have heard

1015
00:51:57,560 --> 00:51:59,680
Speaker 2: stories which seems appropriate, like you might have to answer

1016
00:51:59,760 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: question or you get pulled aside by you know, listen,

1017
00:52:03,160 --> 00:52:05,320
Speaker 2: these are tough times. But I think the bigger piece

1018
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,239
Speaker 2: of this question, and again, if anybody listening knows the

1019
00:52:08,320 --> 00:52:11,000
Speaker 2: answer to this eight eight eight three one crime, please

1020
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,160
Speaker 2: call us. It seems like there's this now reach that

1021
00:52:14,320 --> 00:52:18,080
Speaker 2: stretches beyond just travel privacy, but rather at any time

1022
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 2: you no longer would need a warrant, or you would

1023
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 2: no longer need a reason or probable cause to be

1024
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:28,759
Speaker 2: going into somebody's you know, private files or private photographs

1025
00:52:28,880 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 2: or emails, et cetera. You sort of are giving that

1026
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 2: right away. I think I'm understanding that correctly. And if

1027
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:37,799
Speaker 2: if i'm not, please it's all I understood me.

1028
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 3: I'm glad I only ever fly to Oakland because I

1029
00:52:40,280 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 3: like you know what I mean.

1030
00:52:41,800 --> 00:52:44,040
Speaker 2: I don't pull you aside there nice social media.

1031
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,239
Speaker 3: Listen, do not monitor my social media.

1032
00:52:46,480 --> 00:52:46,680
Speaker 6: You know.

1033
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:48,960
Speaker 3: It's the thing that I'm posting about.

1034
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:51,560
Speaker 4: It impacts a lot of people, it really does. The

1035
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,399
Speaker 4: number of known traveler number holders who have TSA pre

1036
00:52:55,520 --> 00:53:00,239
Speaker 4: check global Entry, it's over thirty one million people. That's

1037
00:53:00,280 --> 00:53:03,319
Speaker 4: a lot. And in the fine print of applying for

1038
00:53:03,400 --> 00:53:07,840
Speaker 4: Global Entry, the Department says, quote consent is implied to

1039
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 4: constant review. Again, even when you're not traveling. So if

1040
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 4: you're sitting there on your couch and writing what the

1041
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:18,640
Speaker 4: federal government maybe sees is a little questionable, you could

1042
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:19,800
Speaker 4: be up for debate.

1043
00:53:20,200 --> 00:53:24,000
Speaker 2: And who's deciding what's questionable? Right? I use clear? I

1044
00:53:24,000 --> 00:53:25,480
Speaker 2: don't do you guys ever use that. It's like you

1045
00:53:25,480 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 2: put your eyes in the machine and then I don't

1046
00:53:28,120 --> 00:53:30,520
Speaker 2: know it. It's actually very efficient and I don't know.

1047
00:53:30,719 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 2: I definitely should read the fine print I want to

1048
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,520
Speaker 2: do a detail that if they have they in the office.

1049
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, if they have your eyeball biometric Stephanie. I'm not

1050
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,080
Speaker 4: sure your quote in the Clear.

1051
00:53:40,960 --> 00:53:44,080
Speaker 2: First in the Scary movie for sure. Yeah, but yeah

1052
00:53:44,080 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 2: you do you put your you put your eye I'm

1053
00:53:45,640 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 2: not This is not a dig against Clear. I use it,

1054
00:53:47,640 --> 00:53:51,200
Speaker 2: but it is very efficient. But it is interesting that

1055
00:53:51,400 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 2: they do have your pupils as the identifier.

1056
00:53:54,480 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 4: Interesting and Global Entry does too, and I yeah, I

1057
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 4: remember doing it, So no Paris for us. I think, body,

1058
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,080
Speaker 4: you're the only one in the Clear, and actually having

1059
00:54:05,080 --> 00:54:07,279
Speaker 4: traveled with you, Stephanie, I do feel like Clear the

1060
00:54:07,320 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 4: total aside, you got through the lines faster than I

1061
00:54:09,960 --> 00:54:11,080
Speaker 4: did with Global Entry.

1062
00:54:11,480 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 2: I don't know what happens there, but it is like

1063
00:54:14,000 --> 00:54:17,480
Speaker 2: the fastest dash imaginable. So again we're not promoting it.

1064
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:21,080
Speaker 2: I don't know the fine print, so just saying it

1065
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 2: is interesting though that we do sign up for stuff

1066
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:26,560
Speaker 2: sometimes without really realizing the implications. That obviously falls over

1067
00:54:26,640 --> 00:54:29,799
Speaker 2: into the obvious category of social media and you know,

1068
00:54:29,920 --> 00:54:33,200
Speaker 2: sort of giving our privacy away, so larger unload. But

1069
00:54:33,440 --> 00:54:36,160
Speaker 2: I just I totally think it's interesting and we should

1070
00:54:36,160 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 2: do sort of a privacy alert. Yogi agrees, he does,

1071
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 2: He agrees.

1072
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:44,239
Speaker 3: He's very emphatic about.

1073
00:54:45,920 --> 00:54:49,239
Speaker 4: I think it's Hafa got him. Actually, what does Yogi know?

1074
00:54:49,520 --> 00:54:52,400
Speaker 4: Is he involved in this present?

1075
00:54:54,160 --> 00:54:59,280
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, Yogi needs a passport? Interesting? So yeah,

1076
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 2: that's it. We'll put a in it from there. But

1077
00:55:00,960 --> 00:55:03,520
Speaker 2: if anybody has any details that they want to share,

1078
00:55:04,200 --> 00:55:05,000
Speaker 2: we'd love to hear it.

1079
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 4: Absolutely. Okay, here is something that I know. I've been

1080
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:14,000
Speaker 4: talking your ear off for many weeks now, and I

1081
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 4: got so deeply sucked in. It was at twenty twenty.

1082
00:55:18,000 --> 00:55:20,959
Speaker 4: I watched again several weeks ago and it was called

1083
00:55:21,000 --> 00:55:24,200
Speaker 4: I've Killed for You and is one of the most twisty, turny,

1084
00:55:24,280 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 4: kind of unimaginable cases I've seen. In a minute, let's

1085
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 4: hear it.

1086
00:55:28,120 --> 00:55:29,720
Speaker 2: Tell us everything, Courtney Armstrong.

1087
00:55:30,280 --> 00:55:33,839
Speaker 4: So in twenty ten, in a place called Alton, Illinois,

1088
00:55:34,280 --> 00:55:37,840
Speaker 4: Bonnie Woodward was murdered. You're listening to true Crime tonight,

1089
00:55:38,160 --> 00:55:40,239
Speaker 4: please call us. We want to hear from you. We're

1090
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,720
Speaker 4: at eight eight eight three one crime. Follow us along

1091
00:55:43,760 --> 00:55:46,120
Speaker 4: on body Woodward or whatever you want to talk about.

1092
00:55:46,239 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 4: So there we are. It's twenty ten. This case took

1093
00:55:49,800 --> 00:55:53,319
Speaker 4: eight years to be solved. But let's just go back

1094
00:55:53,360 --> 00:55:56,560
Speaker 4: to what happened. Bonnie Woodward two was by all accounts,

1095
00:55:56,640 --> 00:56:00,359
Speaker 4: lovely forty eight year old nursing home worker, and she

1096
00:56:00,480 --> 00:56:03,960
Speaker 4: was last seen June twenty fifth. She had four children,

1097
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:07,080
Speaker 4: two were biological and two were adopted when a former

1098
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,799
Speaker 4: husband died. So she was just a real caregiver. If

1099
00:56:09,840 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 4: you know how hard it is to work in a

1100
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,919
Speaker 4: nursing home as a caregiver's.

1101
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 2: Aid it requires sainthood, you know, it is such a

1102
00:56:17,080 --> 00:56:22,200
Speaker 2: really tremendously difficult job. And yes, it describes her so well.

1103
00:56:23,120 --> 00:56:27,359
Speaker 4: So Bonnie didn't come home from work and you could

1104
00:56:27,360 --> 00:56:32,000
Speaker 4: set her whereabouts two o'clock. So immediately her living boyfriend, Gary,

1105
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:36,160
Speaker 4: he called her and is missing. So Gary, everyone always

1106
00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:40,880
Speaker 4: knows you go to the romantic partner first. So Gary

1107
00:56:41,160 --> 00:56:44,239
Speaker 4: is a felon, and the two of them had had

1108
00:56:44,360 --> 00:56:49,279
Speaker 4: some domestic issues. So Bonnie's missing, Gary's called her in.

1109
00:56:49,760 --> 00:56:52,000
Speaker 4: All the police know in this moment is that Gary

1110
00:56:52,040 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 4: is a felon. The next day, officers went to where

1111
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:59,000
Speaker 4: Bonnie worked at the nursing home and her red truck,

1112
00:56:59,120 --> 00:57:02,840
Speaker 4: which she loved and saved up four and was incredibly special,

1113
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,480
Speaker 4: it was left abandoned in the parking lot. The windows

1114
00:57:06,480 --> 00:57:09,879
Speaker 4: were rowed down, and coworkers in fact had seen her

1115
00:57:10,320 --> 00:57:12,880
Speaker 4: just the day before when she went missing, and she

1116
00:57:13,040 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 4: was talking to a man. He had short salt and

1117
00:57:15,800 --> 00:57:19,600
Speaker 4: pepper hair, and he was in a silver car. It

1118
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:23,360
Speaker 4: looked like a Chevy Malibu. And coworker said she got

1119
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 4: out of her red truck and got into the car.

1120
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:31,760
Speaker 4: It looked willingly like the man. Okay, Gary, her Bonnie's boyfriend.

1121
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:34,680
Speaker 4: He does not match the description. But you know who

1122
00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:35,960
Speaker 4: does match the description.

1123
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:38,920
Speaker 3: Let me guess her ex husband or something.

1124
00:57:39,320 --> 00:57:44,440
Speaker 4: Very very close, her ex boyfriend. Yeah, that's right, why

1125
00:57:44,720 --> 00:57:47,360
Speaker 4: so enter So now the police start looking at the

1126
00:57:47,400 --> 00:57:51,120
Speaker 4: ex boyfriend, Chester, and he has been known to have

1127
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 4: short Sultan pepper hair. And Chester's father actually had a

1128
00:57:54,960 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 4: similar car to the one that people said they saw

1129
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:03,040
Speaker 4: him get into. And Bonnie live in. Boyfriend Gary very contentious,

1130
00:58:03,080 --> 00:58:06,960
Speaker 4: bad relationship, No one got along at all when police

1131
00:58:07,000 --> 00:58:10,280
Speaker 4: so it feels very suspicious. Police dive in when they

1132
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 4: find Chester. Turns out he doesn't match the description. His

1133
00:58:13,640 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 4: hair is now long, he has a beard. But the

1134
00:58:16,240 --> 00:58:19,600
Speaker 4: police did something I found very odd. They decide to

1135
00:58:20,040 --> 00:58:24,440
Speaker 4: have both Chester and his father who everyone said, Oh

1136
00:58:24,480 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 4: my god, this car must be Chester's father's car. They

1137
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,200
Speaker 4: had them both in the investigation room at the same time.

1138
00:58:30,400 --> 00:58:31,800
Speaker 4: Have you guys ever heard of that?

1139
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,439
Speaker 2: I think they're not supposed to do that because again,

1140
00:58:34,480 --> 00:58:37,320
Speaker 2: you're aligning your stories right, So the fear would be

1141
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:42,840
Speaker 2: that somebody's confession, or somebody's evidentiary information, or somebody's memory,

1142
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,400
Speaker 2: it could all get intertwined. So, yeah, you set.

1143
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,000
Speaker 3: Even facial even like facial like faces. I look at you,

1144
00:58:50,200 --> 00:58:52,640
Speaker 3: make you stop talking about something that I shouldn't be saying,

1145
00:58:52,680 --> 00:58:54,360
Speaker 3: Like I could be giving you the evil eye and

1146
00:58:54,360 --> 00:58:57,080
Speaker 3: you'll stop talking, you know. Yeah, they would normally not

1147
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:58,280
Speaker 3: do that. That's very interesting.

1148
00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:03,880
Speaker 4: So that occur. Turns out it's neither Bonnie's living boyfriend

1149
00:59:04,120 --> 00:59:07,560
Speaker 4: nor her ex. They're both cleared. Okay, we're now three

1150
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,160
Speaker 4: days into this investigation. Here's where things get weird. So

1151
00:59:11,600 --> 00:59:15,600
Speaker 4: Bonnie is mother and stepmother to a total of four children,

1152
00:59:15,920 --> 00:59:19,600
Speaker 4: and three days into the investigation, officers find out that

1153
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 4: her Bonnie's seventeen year old stepdaughter, Heather, she had been

1154
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:25,880
Speaker 4: reported missing a week before.

1155
00:59:26,680 --> 00:59:30,320
Speaker 2: Yes, how is this not getting connected? Like within seconds?

1156
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:33,840
Speaker 4: Because it was sold to a different police department.

1157
00:59:34,320 --> 00:59:38,480
Speaker 3: So Bonnie has a stepdaughter and she's seventeen, and Bonnie's

1158
00:59:38,520 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 3: stepdaughter is also missing. Did they go missing on the

1159
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 3: same day.

1160
00:59:42,200 --> 00:59:45,840
Speaker 4: No, the daughter, the stepdaughter, the seventeen year old Heather,

1161
00:59:46,120 --> 00:59:49,880
Speaker 4: she had gone missing a week prior, and just it

1162
00:59:49,960 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 4: was never connected because again it was two different local

1163
00:59:53,320 --> 00:59:57,520
Speaker 4: police offices, but close enough. So now it's a dual investigation.

1164
00:59:58,120 --> 00:59:58,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1165
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:02,600
Speaker 2: Stories unbelieve and a little confusing. So that's crazy.

1166
01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 3: Well, you're listening to True Crimes tonight, I kind of

1167
01:00:05,000 --> 01:00:06,479
Speaker 3: want to hear the rest of the story, So stick

1168
01:00:06,520 --> 01:00:08,680
Speaker 3: around for that and give us a call with your

1169
01:00:08,720 --> 01:00:11,920
Speaker 3: thoughts eighty eight thirty one Crime, or use a talkback

1170
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 3: on the iHeartRadio app. Stay right here with your crimes mappp.

1171
01:00:27,160 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 2: Welcome back to true Crime tonight on iHeartRadio. We're talking

1172
01:00:30,160 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 2: true crime all the time, and listen. We're going to

1173
01:00:32,240 --> 01:00:34,160
Speaker 2: get to the rest of this story because this Bonnie

1174
01:00:34,160 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 2: Woodward story that we are hearing from Courtney edge of

1175
01:00:36,600 --> 01:00:39,080
Speaker 2: our seats. But we also have Christine with a call.

1176
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 2: Hi Christine, what's your call?

1177
01:00:41,040 --> 01:00:41,240
Speaker 6: Hi?

1178
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:42,480
Speaker 7: Guys, how are you tonight?

1179
01:00:42,840 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 2: So good?

1180
01:00:44,200 --> 01:00:47,320
Speaker 7: I've been listening and you guys did the segment about

1181
01:00:47,320 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 7: the Titan submersible and what happened. But I have a

1182
01:00:50,680 --> 01:00:54,640
Speaker 7: question for you guys, kind of an opinion thing. Do

1183
01:00:54,680 --> 01:00:59,960
Speaker 7: you think that because ocean Gate is an American based company,

1184
01:01:00,720 --> 01:01:03,640
Speaker 7: do you think that the government should have stepped in

1185
01:01:04,160 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 7: to regulate extreme tourism life.

1186
01:01:07,920 --> 01:01:09,240
Speaker 4: Yeah, what a good question.

1187
01:01:09,560 --> 01:01:11,400
Speaker 2: Yeah you think so. I think so.

1188
01:01:12,360 --> 01:01:16,280
Speaker 7: Jeff Bezos got FAA approval for Blue Origin to take

1189
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:18,960
Speaker 7: his Taurus up to the edge of space, and I

1190
01:01:19,080 --> 01:01:21,960
Speaker 7: know that the time was in international waters, but it's

1191
01:01:21,960 --> 01:01:23,680
Speaker 7: still an American based.

1192
01:01:23,320 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 2: Company, right right. Oh, it's a very layered smart question.

1193
01:01:27,920 --> 01:01:31,880
Speaker 3: I don't know. Listen, I'm obsessed with Chernobyl and I

1194
01:01:32,000 --> 01:01:34,479
Speaker 3: want to go to Chernobyl so bad. And I would

1195
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,800
Speaker 3: be devastated if I finally had the opportunity to go

1196
01:01:38,040 --> 01:01:41,120
Speaker 3: and I wasn't allowed to because the United States. Listen,

1197
01:01:41,320 --> 01:01:43,760
Speaker 3: let's pretend to chernobyls in San Diego or something, Okay,

1198
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 3: Like I would be devastated, pretty big trip. The government

1199
01:01:47,160 --> 01:01:49,120
Speaker 3: was like, you can't do that. Like, I'm the one

1200
01:01:49,320 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 3: who's taking the risk. I understand the risks. I know

1201
01:01:52,480 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 3: that I'm going to Chernobyl. That's I could probably die.

1202
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:57,120
Speaker 3: Like I know that go to dopl if you could

1203
01:01:57,160 --> 01:02:02,600
Speaker 3: probably die because I'm obsessed what Chernobyl, Why, I don't know.

1204
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:04,439
Speaker 3: I like nuclear reactors. I can't.

1205
01:02:04,480 --> 01:02:07,360
Speaker 2: I cannot fair fair, fair, Sorry, I digress.

1206
01:02:07,520 --> 01:02:12,040
Speaker 4: No, that Christine was making was that, Yeah, Jeff Bezos

1207
01:02:12,120 --> 01:02:14,640
Speaker 4: had to get it cleared by the FAA. That's the government,

1208
01:02:14,720 --> 01:02:18,320
Speaker 4: right right, I'm talking this out loud. Yeah, and do

1209
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,480
Speaker 4: we the Titanic that we were obviously just talking about,

1210
01:02:21,640 --> 01:02:24,160
Speaker 4: they did not have permission.

1211
01:02:24,320 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 2: Correct, No, they didn't file any of the correct information.

1212
01:02:27,760 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 2: And Christine doesn't be and if I'm wrong, but it

1213
01:02:29,560 --> 01:02:32,680
Speaker 2: seemed as though they were actually avoiding any of the

1214
01:02:32,760 --> 01:02:36,560
Speaker 2: checks and balances, in fact, maybe even going out of

1215
01:02:36,600 --> 01:02:41,120
Speaker 2: their way to undermine the checks and balances. Which if

1216
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 2: you love Chernobyl and you're putting your life into your listen,

1217
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:46,000
Speaker 2: I've gone skydiving for example, right, you know you don't

1218
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 2: jump out of an airplane and think, oh my goodness,

1219
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:50,320
Speaker 2: it's the plane's fault if I if I hit the

1220
01:02:50,360 --> 01:02:53,439
Speaker 2: ground user error. So we are signing your life away.

1221
01:02:53,480 --> 01:02:57,600
Speaker 2: I guess for some things, these like thrill adventures. But

1222
01:02:57,760 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 2: I think in the and correct me if I'm wrong, Christine,

1223
01:03:00,080 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 2: I think in the titan example, that the participants, although

1224
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:07,600
Speaker 2: they signed all the waivers, maybe they thought that this was,

1225
01:03:07,760 --> 01:03:11,080
Speaker 2: you know, safety tested and had had had some successful

1226
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:13,000
Speaker 2: missions before. Would you still go to Chernobyl if you

1227
01:03:13,080 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 2: knew full well nobody had ever gone there and come

1228
01:03:15,720 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 2: out alive on your little vacation body.

1229
01:03:19,440 --> 01:03:19,880
Speaker 3: I don't know.

1230
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,160
Speaker 2: Someone's got a cause on that. Don't go to Chernobyl

1231
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:24,920
Speaker 2: and die. I would be so sad.

1232
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:29,040
Speaker 4: But someone was the first skydiver, right, I.

1233
01:03:29,000 --> 01:03:31,400
Speaker 2: Mean I know that was by by the way, it's questionable.

1234
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 2: And for the record, I hated skydiving and thought it

1235
01:03:33,840 --> 01:03:35,840
Speaker 2: was so scary and cried the whole way, So I

1236
01:03:35,880 --> 01:03:38,000
Speaker 2: should not be the barometer. I loved it.

1237
01:03:38,080 --> 01:03:40,840
Speaker 3: I just I mean, I think it would be important

1238
01:03:40,880 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 3: for those those checks and balances to be certified and whatnot.

1239
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,160
Speaker 3: But who who does the certification? Is the United States

1240
01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,920
Speaker 3: government because it's it's it's an American company or is

1241
01:03:51,960 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 3: it like what regula what regulatory body decides whether or

1242
01:03:56,800 --> 01:03:58,680
Speaker 3: not I can go to the Titanic.

1243
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 4: Well that's a good point because if it's outside the

1244
01:04:00,920 --> 01:04:03,880
Speaker 4: bounds of where the government itself is going, who is

1245
01:04:03,920 --> 01:04:06,640
Speaker 4: setting the standards? Yeah, I think this is obviously such

1246
01:04:06,640 --> 01:04:08,720
Speaker 4: an intriguing question to all of us. I'm going to

1247
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,840
Speaker 4: lean to personal responsibility and if you sign up for it,

1248
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 4: and you pay with it for your own money, and

1249
01:04:16,280 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 4: you make the choice, and.

1250
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:22,280
Speaker 2: So not sure if the person who you're signing up for, like,

1251
01:04:22,320 --> 01:04:24,240
Speaker 2: for example, I go, well, I guess, I mean, I'm

1252
01:04:24,240 --> 01:04:26,960
Speaker 2: answering my own question, right, I went tandem skydiving, not

1253
01:04:27,000 --> 01:04:28,760
Speaker 2: to make this at all about me, but as a

1254
01:04:28,800 --> 01:04:32,200
Speaker 2: baseline example, I didn't really interview the man who's I

1255
01:04:32,320 --> 01:04:35,000
Speaker 2: strapped my body to and jumped out of an airplane

1256
01:04:35,200 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 2: with So yeah, that would be user error on my part.

1257
01:04:38,680 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 2: But if people hadn't ever done a skydive before, I

1258
01:04:42,040 --> 01:04:44,040
Speaker 2: don't know that I would recreationally do that. I don't know.

1259
01:04:44,040 --> 01:04:45,720
Speaker 2: This is a tough one, Christine. I don't know what

1260
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:48,240
Speaker 2: they do in Canada, but we need to have some answers.

1261
01:04:48,360 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, listen, thank you Christine for the call so much.

1262
01:04:51,480 --> 01:04:54,440
Speaker 4: But you know what, what about climbing? Pretty sure, it's

1263
01:04:54,440 --> 01:04:58,760
Speaker 4: Mount Everest and there's been multiple deaths. Well, I mean

1264
01:04:58,840 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 4: there's it's all the time right now, It's all the time,

1265
01:05:02,120 --> 01:05:06,560
Speaker 4: and yet people still continue to go. So should people

1266
01:05:06,680 --> 01:05:09,640
Speaker 4: regulate that I think the answer is no. I think

1267
01:05:10,000 --> 01:05:13,160
Speaker 4: it's it's an assumed personal risk as long as it

1268
01:05:13,200 --> 01:05:15,960
Speaker 4: is not hurting others nearby.

1269
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,760
Speaker 2: But let's just say this. What if I'm using back

1270
01:05:18,760 --> 01:05:22,880
Speaker 2: the most baseline skydiving example, I elect to go skydiving.

1271
01:05:22,960 --> 01:05:25,640
Speaker 2: I fill out all the materials, but what I'm not

1272
01:05:25,920 --> 01:05:29,240
Speaker 2: told is that the plane that I am skydiving on

1273
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:33,120
Speaker 2: has like no engine or is ill equipped. It has

1274
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:36,640
Speaker 2: not it has not passed regulations so I'm signing up

1275
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:39,760
Speaker 2: or it's not registered, or it's not registered, it hasn't

1276
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:42,400
Speaker 2: been serviced. Like there's some baseline things that you have

1277
01:05:42,480 --> 01:05:45,200
Speaker 2: to assume are being considered. Like in the submarine, you know,

1278
01:05:45,240 --> 01:05:46,840
Speaker 2: these people didn't sign up and be like, hope the

1279
01:05:46,840 --> 01:05:49,160
Speaker 2: guy knows what he's doing. No, they were working under

1280
01:05:49,160 --> 01:05:51,520
Speaker 2: the assumption that this was the guy, this is the expert.

1281
01:05:51,520 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 2: It's called the titan going to the Titanic. It's their

1282
01:05:53,760 --> 01:05:57,400
Speaker 2: lifetime dream. They charge so much money, so they're assuming

1283
01:05:57,440 --> 01:05:59,920
Speaker 2: that this guy knew what was up when instead he

1284
01:06:00,200 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 2: was just cooking the books and doing things his own way.

1285
01:06:03,400 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 2: So on the one hand, yes, it's like user error

1286
01:06:06,000 --> 01:06:08,600
Speaker 2: by like when I like when skydiving, I landed I

1287
01:06:08,800 --> 01:06:12,360
Speaker 2: was like covered from from chin to me with dirt

1288
01:06:12,400 --> 01:06:14,640
Speaker 2: because I was just dragged across the thing because like

1289
01:06:14,720 --> 01:06:17,800
Speaker 2: there's really not a ton of info. But you know that.

1290
01:06:17,960 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 2: But I was assuming that the plane would be safe.

1291
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:22,440
Speaker 2: If I don't know how to land correctly, that's on me,

1292
01:06:22,720 --> 01:06:25,000
Speaker 2: I mean, but also every personal responsibility.

1293
01:06:25,120 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 4: Yeah, personal responsibility and everyone who went and Stephanie, maybe

1294
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 4: they should have asked, you know, what are where is

1295
01:06:30,680 --> 01:06:33,040
Speaker 4: your engine or you know the parts that went wrong?

1296
01:06:33,120 --> 01:06:34,640
Speaker 4: I know it wasn't the engine, Christine.

1297
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:36,440
Speaker 2: That was a great question. Thank you for joining us.

1298
01:06:36,440 --> 01:06:39,680
Speaker 3: Got a thinking, definitely got a sinking, Courtney, Can you continue.

1299
01:06:39,280 --> 01:06:43,120
Speaker 2: To finishing up to know about Bonnie in this tragedy?

1300
01:06:43,280 --> 01:06:47,000
Speaker 4: Okay, very very quick recap. Bonnie Woodward forty eight year

1301
01:06:47,040 --> 01:06:51,200
Speaker 4: old nursing home worker from Alton, Illinois. She goes missing

1302
01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:55,680
Speaker 4: in twenty ten. She has four children, one of whom

1303
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 4: is her seventeen year old stepdaughter named Heather. So if

1304
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:03,240
Speaker 4: you have listening, you know that through a twisty turvy investigation,

1305
01:07:03,760 --> 01:07:08,400
Speaker 4: both Bonnie's live in boyfriend and her ex boyfriend, both

1306
01:07:08,440 --> 01:07:12,520
Speaker 4: who had some messy law backgrounds, they have been cleared

1307
01:07:12,800 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 4: what they did learn in The investigation is that Bonnie's

1308
01:07:15,720 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 4: seventeen year old stepdaughter, Heather, had been reported missing one

1309
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:23,400
Speaker 4: week prior to Bonnie going missing, but it was to

1310
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 4: a different police department, so now it's a dual investigation.

1311
01:07:27,400 --> 01:07:29,000
Speaker 2: And they lived in the same residence.

1312
01:07:29,440 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 3: Does correct police when I go missing, right, I'll imagine

1313
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 3: you're not going to go missing.

1314
01:07:34,280 --> 01:07:36,440
Speaker 2: Ever, we won't see if I went missing, God forbid,

1315
01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:38,760
Speaker 2: I would imagine that the police would want to talk

1316
01:07:38,800 --> 01:07:40,880
Speaker 2: to everybody that I live with. Yeah, of course they'd

1317
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:42,840
Speaker 2: at the Albert house.

1318
01:07:42,920 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 3: It's crazy to me, right, Albert's Yeah, I agree, and

1319
01:07:46,800 --> 01:07:49,920
Speaker 3: it's crazy. But they didn't really news like this, and

1320
01:07:49,960 --> 01:07:51,960
Speaker 3: I tried to dig this up, so I don't know

1321
01:07:52,000 --> 01:07:55,600
Speaker 3: if it was that. Maybe again, Heather was seventeen, and

1322
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:57,760
Speaker 3: maybe she would go out of the house, maybe a

1323
01:07:57,800 --> 01:07:58,760
Speaker 3: couple of days at a.

1324
01:07:58,720 --> 01:08:02,520
Speaker 4: Time, and okay, you know she's missing. So she's missing,

1325
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 4: and the police didn't know because again she was reported

1326
01:08:05,280 --> 01:08:09,560
Speaker 4: to a different police department. So Heather as soon as

1327
01:08:09,600 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 4: the investigators find out, now there's two people missing from

1328
01:08:12,520 --> 01:08:16,800
Speaker 4: the same home. Well, Heather resurfaces one week later, and

1329
01:08:17,439 --> 01:08:20,720
Speaker 4: it turns out that she had been staying away purposely

1330
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:25,679
Speaker 4: until her eighteenth birthday. And for what it's worth, it's

1331
01:08:25,760 --> 01:08:29,800
Speaker 4: one of the most odd police videos I've ever seen. Again,

1332
01:08:29,920 --> 01:08:32,679
Speaker 4: she's an eighteen year old woman at this point, and

1333
01:08:32,960 --> 01:08:36,799
Speaker 4: this is not poking fun making hey, but she's speaking

1334
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:41,360
Speaker 4: like maybe a six year old. I want my I'm

1335
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 4: not going to mimic her, but I want my daddy

1336
01:08:43,960 --> 01:08:46,400
Speaker 4: book book. I want to be at the library. In

1337
01:08:46,439 --> 01:08:48,840
Speaker 4: any case, that's her affect, and there was no it

1338
01:08:48,920 --> 01:08:53,280
Speaker 4: didn't appear that there there was anything neurologically different about her.

1339
01:08:53,560 --> 01:08:57,320
Speaker 4: In any case, she's back. It's staggering. The police don't

1340
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:01,200
Speaker 4: know how to make heads or tails. What bonnie stepdaughter,

1341
01:09:01,240 --> 01:09:03,519
Speaker 4: Heather says was again she wanted to be out of

1342
01:09:03,520 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 4: the house until she was eighteen. She claims that Bonnie,

1343
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:10,360
Speaker 4: by all accounts wonderful, was terrible to her, and she

1344
01:09:10,479 --> 01:09:14,280
Speaker 4: had been staying with this nice family that she met

1345
01:09:14,320 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 4: from church. What and yeah, So the seventeen year old

1346
01:09:17,920 --> 01:09:21,599
Speaker 4: Heather had made friends with this boy at church named

1347
01:09:21,680 --> 01:09:23,760
Speaker 4: Nate and she went to stay with him and his

1348
01:09:23,840 --> 01:09:28,240
Speaker 4: lovely parents. The family is the Carols. They're both upstanding

1349
01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:31,800
Speaker 4: professionals in the medical field. Okay, no one knows what's

1350
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:35,200
Speaker 4: going on. But when investigators do go to dig into

1351
01:09:35,240 --> 01:09:38,080
Speaker 4: a little bit more where Heather has been, they see

1352
01:09:38,360 --> 01:09:42,599
Speaker 4: father Roger Carroll of the Carroll family that he matches

1353
01:09:42,640 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 4: the general description of a man with salt pepper hair,

1354
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:52,280
Speaker 4: as does his car. Yes, and so the Carols, the

1355
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,520
Speaker 4: Monica and Roger. They ask for a lawyer and immediately

1356
01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 4: lock it up. But Heather, the seventeen year old, she

1357
01:10:00,040 --> 01:10:03,280
Speaker 4: continue speaking to officers. Turns out that Heather had gone

1358
01:10:03,560 --> 01:10:06,720
Speaker 4: with the Carroll family mom, dad, and the sixteen year

1359
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:10,040
Speaker 4: old son Nate. She went with them to a lake house. Okay,

1360
01:10:10,360 --> 01:10:14,400
Speaker 4: but on the day of Bonnie's disappearance, Dad, whose hair

1361
01:10:14,520 --> 01:10:19,040
Speaker 4: matches the description and car matches, he had come back

1362
01:10:19,160 --> 01:10:22,280
Speaker 4: to where Bonnie was that day a day early and

1363
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:27,080
Speaker 4: left Bonnie and the mom on vacation. Why so why,

1364
01:10:27,200 --> 01:10:29,479
Speaker 4: They just said they kind of felt like it, but

1365
01:10:29,560 --> 01:10:33,759
Speaker 4: it was very suspicious to the authorities. Yes, three months

1366
01:10:33,760 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 4: go by and then this man, Roger Carroll, the dad

1367
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:41,400
Speaker 4: who was keeping the stepdaughter of Bonnie for the week.

1368
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:44,360
Speaker 4: His fingerprints are found on Bonnie's truck, but this was

1369
01:10:44,400 --> 01:10:48,960
Speaker 4: not enough to charge him Dad, who by no means

1370
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:51,880
Speaker 4: new Bonnie. He only knew the seventeen year old daughter.

1371
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:54,880
Speaker 4: It turns out he came home from vacation with his

1372
01:10:54,920 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 4: sixteen year old son the day that Bonnie, forty eight

1373
01:10:57,880 --> 01:11:01,839
Speaker 4: year old went missing and shot her to death. Lured

1374
01:11:01,880 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 4: her to his house and said, hey, I have your

1375
01:11:04,360 --> 01:11:07,720
Speaker 4: stepdaughter come to my house, shot her to death, and

1376
01:11:07,760 --> 01:11:11,160
Speaker 4: then made his sixteen year old son, who cracked the

1377
01:11:11,200 --> 01:11:14,320
Speaker 4: case after he was given immunity. They he made his

1378
01:11:14,400 --> 01:11:17,519
Speaker 4: sixteen year old son help burn her body for an

1379
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:21,720
Speaker 4: entire day and night stalking a fire. And yeah, so

1380
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:25,080
Speaker 4: Heather was bait to bring her there. And there's no

1381
01:11:25,560 --> 01:11:28,320
Speaker 4: real rationale. Bonnie never did anything.

1382
01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:32,160
Speaker 6: I was gonna say, what this guy she did it

1383
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:36,200
Speaker 6: because he was remember her, Bonnie's seventeen year old stepdaughter

1384
01:11:36,280 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 6: was staying with their family, and she had said, hey, Bonnie.

1385
01:11:40,000 --> 01:11:44,080
Speaker 4: Is mean to me, and somehow that leapt to well,

1386
01:11:44,200 --> 01:11:46,639
Speaker 4: I'll kill her and have my sixteen year old burner

1387
01:11:46,720 --> 01:11:50,479
Speaker 4: for a day and a night. Really wild stuff.

1388
01:11:50,640 --> 01:11:52,759
Speaker 3: And you said this is on twenty twenty.

1389
01:11:52,920 --> 01:11:57,200
Speaker 4: This was a twenty twenty it's striving on story. Yeah,

1390
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:00,040
Speaker 4: so even though there was no body, prosecutor secured a

1391
01:12:00,040 --> 01:12:03,200
Speaker 4: first degree murdered conviction because of the Sun sixteen at

1392
01:12:03,200 --> 01:12:07,680
Speaker 4: the time, and Roger Carroll received a sixty five year sentence.

1393
01:12:08,080 --> 01:12:12,360
Speaker 4: But this is now on appeal, so we'll be following

1394
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:14,599
Speaker 4: this story and we'll see if it takes as long

1395
01:12:14,640 --> 01:12:16,799
Speaker 4: for me to tell it, which I don't think is possible.

1396
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:20,160
Speaker 4: But that is a story of poor Bonnie. Woodward did

1397
01:12:20,200 --> 01:12:22,639
Speaker 4: a really good job. That is a complicated tale.

1398
01:12:22,640 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 2: And Courtney Armstrong, you finally I finally understand it, like

1399
01:12:26,160 --> 01:12:28,320
Speaker 2: I've been sort of knocking my head against the wall. Remember,

1400
01:12:28,439 --> 01:12:30,840
Speaker 2: like you guys all can sell like I can never

1401
01:12:31,040 --> 01:12:33,960
Speaker 2: follow that. So that was the very first time. Thank

1402
01:12:34,000 --> 01:12:36,639
Speaker 2: you for you know, laying that out so clearly. It's

1403
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:38,640
Speaker 2: so tragic. It's, guys, a monster.

1404
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:42,320
Speaker 3: Poor Bonnie. Yeah, so Heather Bonnie, Heather was bat Now

1405
01:12:42,439 --> 01:12:44,360
Speaker 3: did Heather get accused of anything.

1406
01:12:44,840 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 4: No, and it doesn't appear she doesn't.

1407
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:51,960
Speaker 3: She knows act in the interrogation room was for nothing.

1408
01:12:52,240 --> 01:12:53,920
Speaker 4: I think she was trying to keep herself out of

1409
01:12:53,920 --> 01:12:58,000
Speaker 4: trouble because she knew that the police were looking for her. Wow,

1410
01:12:58,000 --> 01:13:00,599
Speaker 4: But no, she didn't think the main and who killed

1411
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:02,360
Speaker 4: Bonnie actually did it.

1412
01:13:02,479 --> 01:13:04,080
Speaker 2: Okay, that's weird, that's unbelieving.

1413
01:13:04,080 --> 01:13:05,880
Speaker 3: I'm gonna have to watch this twenty twenty.

1414
01:13:06,000 --> 01:13:07,879
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's it's quite a watch.

1415
01:13:08,320 --> 01:13:10,240
Speaker 2: Wow. Well you know again, I know we just talked

1416
01:13:10,240 --> 01:13:12,120
Speaker 2: about this, but you know, we have a huge show tomorrow.

1417
01:13:12,160 --> 01:13:14,160
Speaker 2: So even though we're wrapping up tonight, we want to

1418
01:13:14,160 --> 01:13:17,120
Speaker 2: make sure that you guys are sticking with us. Lisa Bryant,

1419
01:13:17,360 --> 01:13:22,759
Speaker 2: director and executive producer of the Netflix documentary centering around Epstein,

1420
01:13:23,280 --> 01:13:26,080
Speaker 2: will be answering questions, so make sure you call us.

1421
01:13:26,280 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 2: It's been an amazing night. Our hearts are with Texas everyone,

1422
01:13:29,240 --> 01:13:31,680
Speaker 2: so please send a prayer and love. We wish you

1423
01:13:31,720 --> 01:13:33,200
Speaker 2: all well. Be safe. Good night,