1 00:00:09,039 --> 00:00:10,680 Speaker 1: Pure evil. 2 00:00:11,920 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 2: That is the way that not one, but two men 3 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:17,599 Speaker 2: have been described. 4 00:00:18,079 --> 00:00:20,200 Speaker 1: What else do they have in common? 5 00:00:20,360 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: Well, allegedly many many dead bodies. 6 00:00:26,880 --> 00:00:28,560 Speaker 1: I'm talking about of course. 7 00:00:28,640 --> 00:00:34,680 Speaker 2: Ted Bundy, who immediately springs to mind whenever a serial 8 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 2: killer or pure evil is named. But now, according to 9 00:00:40,640 --> 00:00:46,040 Speaker 2: many parallels between Ted Bundy, who is called the Coyamega Killer, 10 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 2: but he actually killed many, many more women than those 11 00:00:49,880 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 2: murdered in the Kyomega House, many parallels are being drawn 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:01:03,360 Speaker 2: between Ted Bundy and Brian Berger, now accused of murdering 13 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:09,480 Speaker 2: four beautiful young Idaho students. We believe in their sleep, 14 00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 2: in their sleep or falling asleep or in bed in 15 00:01:14,680 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 2: the early early morning hours around three am. When Ted 16 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,440 Speaker 2: Bundy was finally caught after two escapes by the way 17 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 2: and convicted and put in the penitentiary, many people thought 18 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: it would never happen again. 19 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:40,920 Speaker 3: Wow, were we wrong? I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. 20 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:42,160 Speaker 3: Thank you for being with. 21 00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 2: Us here at Foxination in series XM one eleven. Take 22 00:01:47,120 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 2: a listen to parallels of evil the Bundy in Idaho killing. 23 00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 2: I can only imagine what was going through his mind, 24 00:01:56,040 --> 00:02:03,360 Speaker 2: the plotting, the planning, the scheming, is very evocative of 25 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:08,480 Speaker 2: the Ted Bundy case because we know now that those 26 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:12,680 Speaker 2: victims were spying on and stalked upun to slight these victims. 27 00:02:12,560 --> 00:02:14,880 Speaker 1: And there's really no doubt about it. 28 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:20,560 Speaker 2: The comparisons of the parallels between the mo's modus operandi 29 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 2: method of operation between Bundy killings and the Idaho murders 30 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:35,360 Speaker 2: are eerie, actually very eerie in their similarities. Take a 31 00:02:35,440 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 2: listen to who I now consider to be my friend, 32 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: Cheryl Thomas. 33 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:45,560 Speaker 3: When you read the headlines out of Idaho, what did 34 00:02:45,600 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 3: you think? 35 00:02:47,240 --> 00:02:50,320 Speaker 4: I was really saddened to hear about the news that 36 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 4: that happened. 37 00:02:51,800 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: That needs brings Cheryl Thomas out of Quarta has been 38 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 1: in there unlawfully attempt to kill a human being. 39 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:57,200 Speaker 2: Too. 40 00:02:57,240 --> 00:02:59,040 Speaker 1: With Cheryl Thomas by being her about him. 41 00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:02,239 Speaker 3: Back to the arcust moment about her life the night 42 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,040 Speaker 3: she was attacked in her own. 43 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 4: Bed my serial killer Ted Bundy, I could relate. It 44 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,760 Speaker 4: was a click immediately reaction to that scene. 45 00:03:15,080 --> 00:03:18,720 Speaker 2: Take a listen now to the neighbor of Cheryl Thomas 46 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: who was attacked that night by Ted Bundy. 47 00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:23,240 Speaker 1: This is Debbie, says Rellie. 48 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 5: We had been some sleep, we'd come in that night 49 00:03:25,560 --> 00:03:29,240 Speaker 5: from being out together, and I had heard this. Our 50 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:31,240 Speaker 5: house was up on blocks and I heard this loud 51 00:03:31,280 --> 00:03:34,840 Speaker 5: banging and it startled me. I woke up and I 52 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 5: listened for a little bit, and then woke my roommate 53 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,120 Speaker 5: up and I said, there's something going on next door. 54 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 5: And the thing is the wall between Cheryl's side and 55 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 5: our side was so thin that we could actually talk 56 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 5: to each other through a wall. And we had a 57 00:03:49,200 --> 00:03:52,680 Speaker 5: system that if there's something we're not feeling right about, 58 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 5: we're going to call you. You need to answer your phone, 59 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 5: no matter what well. I called over there. I could 60 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,960 Speaker 5: hear the phone ringing, I could hear Cheryl whimpering, but 61 00:04:03,320 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 5: I just had this real unsettling feeling sick to my stomach. 62 00:04:07,600 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: I had no idea what was going on. 63 00:04:09,120 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 5: We thought maybe her cat was having kittens, and there 64 00:04:11,960 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 5: was all this commotion in Churyl's room. 65 00:04:13,920 --> 00:04:17,560 Speaker 2: For that with me an all star panel to analyze 66 00:04:17,560 --> 00:04:21,800 Speaker 2: and decipher what we're learning as more and more evidence 67 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:25,600 Speaker 2: comes in about the Idaho murders. But first I want 68 00:04:25,640 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 2: to go to Fox News digital investigative reporter Audrey Conklin. Now, 69 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:34,160 Speaker 2: just then, Audrey, from our friends at News Nation, We 70 00:04:34,160 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: were hearing, Debbie Ciccarelli, and it sounds so much like 71 00:04:40,800 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 2: what Dylan Mortenson said that she heard something and she 72 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:50,440 Speaker 2: wasn't quite sure what it sounded like. Now here, Debbie 73 00:04:50,480 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: says it sound thought she heard a cat mewing, but 74 00:04:54,240 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 2: what she heard were Bundy's victims moaning during and after 75 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 2: the attack. 76 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 6: Audrey, Yes, I mean, we've heard similarities from the murders 77 00:05:06,440 --> 00:05:10,599 Speaker 6: in Moscow that straining or other kinds of noises, banging 78 00:05:10,640 --> 00:05:12,400 Speaker 6: could be heard through the walls. 79 00:05:13,520 --> 00:05:15,479 Speaker 7: We know that there was a dog in the building. 80 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,800 Speaker 7: It's un sure if the dog made any noise. But 81 00:05:19,160 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 7: both of these communities in the nineteen seventies and then 82 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:29,160 Speaker 7: last fall were close knit college communities, close in their 83 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 7: relationships and close in proximity. So there are a lot 84 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:36,640 Speaker 7: of similarities between these two crimes. 85 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: To Joseph Scott Morgan, professor of Forensics at Jacksonville State University, 86 00:05:42,000 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 2: author A Blood Beneath My Fate, and host Body Bags 87 00:05:46,200 --> 00:05:51,400 Speaker 2: with Joe Scott Morgan, who, by the way, is commemorating 88 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:56,040 Speaker 2: the one hundred episode of Body Bags this week. 89 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:57,040 Speaker 1: Amazingly. 90 00:05:57,120 --> 00:05:59,680 Speaker 2: Congratulations on that, Joe Scott Morgan, all the good you 91 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,120 Speaker 2: have done in this world just got the words of 92 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,640 Speaker 2: Dylan Mortenson. Just keep coming to mind what we know 93 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:12,039 Speaker 2: of her words anyway, Guys, Dylan Mortenson is one. 94 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:14,280 Speaker 1: Of the two surviving roommates. 95 00:06:14,720 --> 00:06:20,560 Speaker 2: Dylan Mortenson, we believe, actually saw the murderer who had 96 00:06:20,720 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: just slain four sleeping or sleepy college students in Idaho 97 00:06:26,680 --> 00:06:30,040 Speaker 2: and described him good for her. She went back in 98 00:06:30,120 --> 00:06:31,760 Speaker 2: her room and shut her door and locked it, not 99 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,719 Speaker 2: realizing I don't think anyway what she had actually seen 100 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 2: or what had actually happened upstairs. But then you've got 101 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 2: Bethany Funk also we don't know what she's going to say, 102 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:46,600 Speaker 2: who may very well have slept through the whole thing, 103 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:50,440 Speaker 2: but remembered the words of Dylan Mortenson. And how that 104 00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 2: compares to what Debbie Citrurelli heard. It's almost identical, it is. 105 00:06:56,760 --> 00:07:01,200 Speaker 8: And thanks for having me on today, Nancy, Yeah, it 106 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 8: really is. And in such close proximity to evil, and 107 00:07:05,440 --> 00:07:08,240 Speaker 8: it is pure evil, you know, when we begin to 108 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:12,480 Speaker 8: and as you've talked about, these parallels relative between Bundy 109 00:07:12,520 --> 00:07:16,240 Speaker 8: and Coburger and these events that have gone down, and 110 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 8: you have people that are, you know, just in the 111 00:07:19,760 --> 00:07:23,760 Speaker 8: eye of the stormy they just get brushed by it, 112 00:07:24,280 --> 00:07:29,120 Speaker 8: but they've wreaked havoc in their wake, these monsters along 113 00:07:29,160 --> 00:07:31,760 Speaker 8: the way, and these people are all that are left 114 00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 8: behind to bear witness to this, at least potentially as 115 00:07:35,160 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 8: an ear witness or an eyewitness. In Dylan's case in particular. 116 00:07:38,960 --> 00:07:42,800 Speaker 8: You know, she's actually the person that we get that identifier, 117 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:45,880 Speaker 8: that big identifier. Do you remember back those months ago 118 00:07:45,920 --> 00:07:48,600 Speaker 8: where she talked about the bushy eyebrows, you know, and 119 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:51,560 Speaker 8: that was the one thing that kind of resonated in 120 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:52,679 Speaker 8: this particular case. 121 00:07:56,600 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 3: Hi, guys, Nancy Grace here, please join us now on 122 00:08:00,080 --> 00:08:04,800 Speaker 3: Fox Nation for a brand new investigation, Parallels of Evil 123 00:08:05,080 --> 00:08:10,280 Speaker 3: the Bundy and Idaho killings. In this gripping special investigation, 124 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:14,640 Speaker 3: we bring together an incredible panel of guests who analyze 125 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: disturbing similarities of evil between these horrible crimes. We speak 126 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:28,080 Speaker 3: with two female Ted Bundy survivors, Karen Pryor and Cheryl Thomas, 127 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 3: who described their life before and after they were victims 128 00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:38,320 Speaker 3: of Ted Bundy. We also speak with the renowned private 129 00:08:38,320 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 3: investigator Bill Warner who worked the cases, and Ted Bundy's 130 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 3: defense attorney, John Henry Brown. We traveled to Moscow, Idaho, 131 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:52,040 Speaker 3: to speak with Washington State University students and interview neighbors 132 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 3: of Brian Coburger. One neighbor shares exclusive insights about the 133 00:08:57,720 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 3: suspect in the Idaho killings, Brian Coburger. Don't miss Parallels 134 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 3: of Evil, the Bundy and I Hope Killings, streaming now 135 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:09,000 Speaker 3: exclusively on Fox. 136 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 9: Nation Time Stories with Nancy Grease. 137 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: You know, I was just thinking, I want to go 138 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: to John Henry Brown. Guys, I know you've heard that 139 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:38,520 Speaker 2: name before. He is a renowned lawyer and was Ted 140 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 2: Bundy's former defense lawyer. 141 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 3: That must give you nightmares at night. You can find 142 00:09:43,559 --> 00:09:47,600 Speaker 3: John Henry Brown at j h B for John Henry 143 00:09:47,640 --> 00:09:52,120 Speaker 3: Brown Lawyer dot com. John, thank you for being with us. 144 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:54,920 Speaker 1: John. Do you go by John or Henry or John Henry? 145 00:09:55,040 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 10: Oh, either one side. I do a lot of things. 146 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to go with John. Okay, John. 147 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:06,439 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about all the literally thousands of criminal defendants 148 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:10,000 Speaker 2: that went before me as a prosecutor in intercity Atlanta, 149 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 2: very very high crime volume. I mean I would get 150 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 2: one hundred and fifty new felony cases a week, and 151 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,280 Speaker 2: many of those were it sounds like a lot many 152 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: of those were theft by taking theft, by receiving a 153 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 2: stolen car, coup pulls over stolen car. 154 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 1: There's four guys in it. They all get charged, all right. 155 00:10:28,800 --> 00:10:31,960 Speaker 3: That's easy to deal with unless they're you know, have 156 00:10:32,040 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 3: a bad record or a simple possession of marijuana or cocaine. 157 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: You know, it's straight to rehab for you and next. 158 00:10:40,440 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: There's so many cases that are easily disposed of. 159 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: But there are. 160 00:10:45,800 --> 00:10:50,600 Speaker 3: Those John Henry Brown that when the person walks in 161 00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:55,400 Speaker 3: the room, the particular judge I had would want me 162 00:10:55,840 --> 00:10:58,320 Speaker 3: to meet with a defense attorney and bring in the 163 00:10:58,360 --> 00:11:01,560 Speaker 3: defendant in the conference room. He could be charged with 164 00:11:01,640 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 3: mass murder, cereal rapists, didn't matter, and we would go 165 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 3: through the case and I would explain what the state 166 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 3: had at that juncture against them and offer a plea 167 00:11:10,640 --> 00:11:12,240 Speaker 3: deal or just say no deal. 168 00:11:12,280 --> 00:11:14,160 Speaker 1: You're going to trial, you big a hole. 169 00:11:14,800 --> 00:11:19,880 Speaker 2: So long story short, there were those defendants that when 170 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,199 Speaker 2: they would walk in and then walk out later, you 171 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 2: just had the creepiest feeling about them. Did you ever 172 00:11:30,280 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 2: have that feeling about Bundy? 173 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 10: Oh? Yeah, constantly. 174 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: Oh gosh, okay, I didn't know if you were going 175 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:41,520 Speaker 3: to go to your grave going He's innocent. But that said, Okay, 176 00:11:41,520 --> 00:11:43,720 Speaker 3: I want to hear about the creepy feeling. Are you listening, 177 00:11:43,760 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 3: doctor Bethany Marshall? Okay, you're not going to find any 178 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 3: of this and your psychoanalytic books. This is true, Okay, 179 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 3: John Henry Brown, I want to hear about the feeling. 180 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 10: Well, when I first met it, he came across as 181 00:11:56,320 --> 00:11:59,319 Speaker 10: kind of a cricature of a preppy sort of guy. 182 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:01,840 Speaker 10: But really got creepy was he was out of custody 183 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,480 Speaker 10: after you've been released in Utah. 184 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:09,200 Speaker 3: Oh my stars, wait wait wait, wait, that's right. He 185 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,480 Speaker 3: was out of custody. 186 00:12:11,920 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: Free to continue killing people. 187 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 3: And you said he was like a caricature of a 188 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 3: preppy person. 189 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: What do you mean by that? 190 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 10: Oh? You know he was. He was trying to blend 191 00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:27,800 Speaker 10: in with the Republican folks in Washington. We had a 192 00:12:27,800 --> 00:12:30,720 Speaker 10: really great governor back there, Dan Evans was our governor, 193 00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,360 Speaker 10: and I ended up working for Dan. That's how I 194 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 10: got to ted is that somebody in Dan's staff recommended 195 00:12:36,880 --> 00:12:40,800 Speaker 10: me jed. The really creepy things started happening when you know, 196 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 10: I meet with him on Saturday, and then the next 197 00:12:43,880 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 10: Wednesday he'd show up to be wearing like the exact 198 00:12:46,200 --> 00:12:48,839 Speaker 10: same clothes I was wearing. And he'd asked me where 199 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 10: I hit my clothes wearing? Hit my shoes? What kind 200 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:52,640 Speaker 10: of car I drove? What kind of women? 201 00:12:52,160 --> 00:12:52,920 Speaker 1: The Okay? 202 00:12:52,960 --> 00:12:55,560 Speaker 3: Why there's just wait, John Henry, you're telling me so 203 00:12:55,679 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 3: much to the rest of the panel, please cite this in. 204 00:12:59,200 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: I've got I've got to ferret this out. Wait. So 205 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:03,520 Speaker 1: he had to ask you where where. 206 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:05,199 Speaker 2: Did you get that jacket? Where'd you get that shirt? 207 00:13:05,280 --> 00:13:07,720 Speaker 2: What card you drive? What women do you date? I 208 00:13:07,760 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 2: find that interesting. He just throws the women in like 209 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 2: you can buy one at the mall. 210 00:13:12,120 --> 00:13:14,760 Speaker 3: Where'd you get that shirt? Where'd you get that day? 211 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: Where'd she come from? Okay, that's a whole other can 212 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,240 Speaker 3: of worms. But then he'd show up wearing like the 213 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:22,640 Speaker 3: same outfit essentially that you were wearing. 214 00:13:22,840 --> 00:13:24,600 Speaker 10: Right, and one of the creepiest I don't know if 215 00:13:24,600 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 10: you know about I wrote a book. 216 00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,680 Speaker 1: Wait, no, I did not know about you. But what 217 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:29,880 Speaker 1: is the name of your book? 218 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 10: It's called The Devil's Defender. 219 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: The Devil's Defender is that on Amazon? 220 00:13:34,679 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 10: Yeah? Actually, Amazon editor has voted at the best non fiction. 221 00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,800 Speaker 1: Book of that year, but best what book? 222 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 10: Best nonfiction of that year. 223 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 2: The Devil's Defender. Oh okay, I know what I'm going 224 00:13:45,280 --> 00:13:47,440 Speaker 2: to do on vacation. I'm reading The Devil's Defender. 225 00:13:48,120 --> 00:13:51,640 Speaker 10: So one of the creepiest things in the whole Bundee 226 00:13:51,880 --> 00:13:56,280 Speaker 10: adventure was he told me in Tallahassee and the jail there, 227 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,680 Speaker 10: when I'd secured a plea barb for chet. I don't 228 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 10: know a lot of people don't know that, but I 229 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,040 Speaker 10: had secured a flea blogging to save his life. And 230 00:14:03,520 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 10: one of those meetings in the jail in Tallahassee, he 231 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 10: I'm walking out of the jail cell. They gave me 232 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:12,240 Speaker 10: free access to him, and he said, the reason you've 233 00:14:12,240 --> 00:14:15,160 Speaker 10: been my advisor so long and attorney at times is 234 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 10: because we're so much oud life. 235 00:14:16,920 --> 00:14:18,160 Speaker 1: But that made you feel good. 236 00:14:18,480 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 10: I remember looking in the mirror in this cheap hotel 237 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 10: in Tallahassee and saying, you know, why are you doing this? 238 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 10: This is you don't want to be around this kind 239 00:14:25,200 --> 00:14:28,400 Speaker 10: of evil. I never believe people could be born evil 240 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:34,000 Speaker 10: until I met Ched, So my attitude about that changed dramatically. 241 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: Okay, do you think he's haunted you? 242 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:37,600 Speaker 10: I don't think so. 243 00:14:37,920 --> 00:14:40,160 Speaker 2: I was ready for a good ghost story right now 244 00:14:40,200 --> 00:14:41,320 Speaker 2: and then you just blew it. 245 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: Thank you. 246 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:44,120 Speaker 10: Huh No. I think you and I have some similarities 247 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:47,760 Speaker 10: that when I'm nineteen seventy one in Washington, c when 248 00:14:47,800 --> 00:14:50,240 Speaker 10: I was in law school, my girlfriend was in Berkeley 249 00:14:50,280 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 10: going to graduate school and she was murdered. So I 250 00:14:53,640 --> 00:14:57,200 Speaker 10: have this kind of a dual role of zealous coming 251 00:14:57,240 --> 00:14:59,360 Speaker 10: on defense attorney and at the same time being the 252 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,440 Speaker 10: victim of homicide. She was in Berkeley, and I didn't 253 00:15:02,520 --> 00:15:04,640 Speaker 10: of course, didn't they get anything to do with it. 254 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,200 Speaker 10: I could never live with myself. But he did tell 255 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:10,760 Speaker 10: me later on in communications that he was active in 256 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:14,240 Speaker 10: California as well as seven or eight other states. As 257 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:16,000 Speaker 10: if I could jump to something that I think is 258 00:15:16,080 --> 00:15:22,440 Speaker 10: kind of interesting between between he and Colberger is Colberger 259 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 10: goes from a state Washington, where there's no death penalty 260 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:32,720 Speaker 10: and an insanity defense to a state ten miles away 261 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:36,280 Speaker 10: where there's no insanity defense and there's a death penalty. 262 00:15:37,040 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 10: When Tad escaped the first time in Aspen, I threw 263 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:43,840 Speaker 10: when he got arrested and went to him in the 264 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 10: Picking County jail in Aspen and the Picking County courthouses. 265 00:15:48,880 --> 00:15:50,200 Speaker 10: Who have you been there? Nanty. 266 00:15:50,320 --> 00:15:52,360 Speaker 3: Yes, And not only have I been there, I have 267 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 3: interviewed a sheriff, a rookie sheriff that transported Bundy. 268 00:15:59,000 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: What a story I've told. 269 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 10: Yeah, I visited him a couple of days. That's after 270 00:16:03,200 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 10: his first escape anyway. So I go down to the 271 00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 10: holding cell in the basement, which is the old fashioned 272 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 10: kind with the flat bars, and Ted's sleeping on the floor, 273 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,320 Speaker 10: and one of the guards kicks the gate, said you 274 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 10: got to visit visitor Bundy. And then Ted wakes up, 275 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 10: looks at me, and he goes, John, did you figure 276 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 10: out which one of those guys pushed me out of 277 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 10: the window. 278 00:16:23,440 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 1: After his escape? 279 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,840 Speaker 2: For those of you that don't know, Bundy escaped out 280 00:16:28,520 --> 00:16:31,520 Speaker 2: an upstairs window in the courthouse. I believe it was 281 00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 2: the law library, wasn't it, John Henry. 282 00:16:33,680 --> 00:16:36,720 Speaker 10: Yes. During that meeting with him, or one of those 283 00:16:36,760 --> 00:16:40,440 Speaker 10: games over a few days, I advised him to waive 284 00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:44,040 Speaker 10: extradition from Utah, where they kill people all the time 285 00:16:44,560 --> 00:16:47,400 Speaker 10: in the duckt tally the cases to go to Colorado. 286 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 10: Because I got to Colorado death pedalty statue was probably 287 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:55,120 Speaker 10: un constitutional. So I told him that, and Ted asked me. 288 00:16:55,200 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 10: He said, well, John where would I go if I 289 00:16:56,840 --> 00:16:59,040 Speaker 10: really wanted to get the death penalty? And you know 290 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:03,240 Speaker 10: what I said, Florida, Florida or Texas. Then he escapes 291 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 10: the second time and goes to the number of states 292 00:17:06,040 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 10: and ends up in ann Arbor, Michigan, which did not 293 00:17:09,880 --> 00:17:12,399 Speaker 10: have the death devily at that point. And he's watching 294 00:17:12,440 --> 00:17:15,480 Speaker 10: the Rose Bowl and she's a little ticker tape on 295 00:17:15,520 --> 00:17:17,479 Speaker 10: the bottom and said on the escaped he's already been 296 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,680 Speaker 10: gone for a day and a half. But he goes 297 00:17:20,720 --> 00:17:24,760 Speaker 10: from state to state where there is insanity defenses and 298 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 10: no death enalty, and goes to a small college down 299 00:17:28,560 --> 00:17:32,800 Speaker 10: in Florida. And so Colberger goes from Washington state where 300 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 10: there's really no death dealty and there's active insanity defense 301 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 10: to a state where various no defendent insanity defense and 302 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:43,160 Speaker 10: they have the death penel. 303 00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 2: Well, and hey, don't rush through your stories. What you're 304 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,239 Speaker 2: telling us are thanks. Many people don't know. 305 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 1: I have never known. 306 00:17:52,560 --> 00:17:57,159 Speaker 2: So Del Carson with me, high profile lawyer out of Jacksonville, 307 00:17:57,200 --> 00:18:02,880 Speaker 2: former FED with the FBI, instructor at the FBI Academy, 308 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:07,560 Speaker 2: who taught the case of Ted Bundy and author of 309 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 2: Arrest Proof for Yourself, you can find him at del 310 00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:13,800 Speaker 2: Carson Law dot com. Deal what about that, I've never 311 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 2: heard that story where John Henry Brown walks in, they 312 00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:22,439 Speaker 2: wake Bundy up, and he goes, hey, who pushed me 313 00:18:22,480 --> 00:18:23,720 Speaker 2: through that library window? 314 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:27,240 Speaker 1: He had tried he escapes, I mean the right. 315 00:18:27,359 --> 00:18:32,360 Speaker 11: The anecdotal stories that emanate out of people like this 316 00:18:32,480 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 11: is pretty incredible, really, and it surprises me some that 317 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 11: you know, these attacks both the Kyle MegaHouse and in Idaho. 318 00:18:43,480 --> 00:18:46,679 Speaker 11: You know, we're done basically at the same time, not 319 00:18:46,800 --> 00:18:50,679 Speaker 11: the same day. Bundy's was done on a Tuesday, and 320 00:18:50,920 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 11: people don't realize that the Bureau and other agencies at 321 00:18:54,680 --> 00:19:00,919 Speaker 11: that time set out investigators, police officers who identify everybody 322 00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 11: in field interrogations that were wandering around Tallahassee during that 323 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 11: period of time, you know, from ten PM until five am, 324 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:17,560 Speaker 11: and we found that roughly sixty percent of the people 325 00:19:17,640 --> 00:19:21,600 Speaker 11: who were walking around in Tallahassee back in seventy four 326 00:19:22,320 --> 00:19:27,760 Speaker 11: were convicted criminals. So that was something that my takeaway 327 00:19:27,840 --> 00:19:31,600 Speaker 11: from that all was that people who wander around in 328 00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 11: the middle of the night, even in a college town, 329 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 11: really are causing trouble and looking for trouble and certainly 330 00:19:38,000 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 11: that was Bundy, you know, who went in as an 331 00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 11: anger excitation rapist and killed two girls and injured severely 332 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,800 Speaker 11: some others. I mean, it's similar to what Coburger did 333 00:19:50,840 --> 00:19:55,840 Speaker 11: in terms of his anger excitation, which of course we 334 00:19:55,920 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 11: recognize now he was able to slaughter five people terrible. 335 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,880 Speaker 10: Therefore beds the night out on that prime. 336 00:20:03,080 --> 00:20:05,359 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, you know, I want to go to doctor 337 00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 2: Bethany Marshall and then Bill Warner joining us Doctor Bethany 338 00:20:08,640 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 2: Marshall joining us Psychoanalyside of Beverly Hills at doctor Bethanymarshall 339 00:20:14,200 --> 00:20:20,520 Speaker 2: dot com Doctor Bethany Hearing John Henry Brown speaking about 340 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 2: Ted Bundy, it reinforces what we have been told about Bundy, 341 00:20:26,480 --> 00:20:30,640 Speaker 2: that he could be charming and witty and funny and 342 00:20:30,760 --> 00:20:37,040 Speaker 2: blend in. So these women meeting him were immediately put 343 00:20:37,119 --> 00:20:37,639 Speaker 2: at ease. 344 00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:40,439 Speaker 1: He was really good at it. 345 00:20:40,800 --> 00:20:44,159 Speaker 12: Of course, Nancy. And this is how we learn about sociopaths. 346 00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:47,280 Speaker 12: It's not from reading out of a textbook or looking 347 00:20:47,320 --> 00:20:50,560 Speaker 12: at the research or even walking through a jail. It's 348 00:20:50,640 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 12: through hearing stories from people like John where he has 349 00:20:54,840 --> 00:20:58,720 Speaker 12: this up close and personal experience like we're going to 350 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 12: have with Coberger in thecoming trial. And the clothing aspect 351 00:21:03,119 --> 00:21:06,400 Speaker 12: is so fascinating to me. I could pick apart all 352 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:09,119 Speaker 12: these details, but I'll just pick up on a couple 353 00:21:09,160 --> 00:21:13,359 Speaker 12: of them. One detail is the clothing. He wanted to 354 00:21:13,440 --> 00:21:16,960 Speaker 12: dress like John. He wanted to charm and impress John. 355 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:20,439 Speaker 12: And I'm thinking about a male associopath who came to 356 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,879 Speaker 12: my office in Beverly Hills, who was about to be 357 00:21:22,960 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 12: unguided for this multi level marketing scheme where he had 358 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 12: taken millions and millions of dollars from people. It was 359 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:33,320 Speaker 12: like a cult. People would gather in this huge room 360 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:35,959 Speaker 12: and kind of worship him. They would all do this 361 00:21:36,440 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 12: laying on a hand ceremony where the crowd would ripple 362 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,160 Speaker 12: from the back to the front and you know, send 363 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 12: positive energy and light towards him. And the first thing 364 00:21:46,160 --> 00:21:48,800 Speaker 12: I noticed when I opened the door to my waiting 365 00:21:48,840 --> 00:21:52,959 Speaker 12: room in Beverly Hills was his clothing. He had like 366 00:21:53,480 --> 00:22:00,560 Speaker 12: Gucci pants, protest sunglasses, some kind of fancy shoes. I mean, 367 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 12: he was really dressed like he was going to be 368 00:22:04,440 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 12: out on a photo shoot. And I knew in a 369 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 12: second I had this creepy feeling of he's trying to 370 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:13,240 Speaker 12: impress me. He's like a chameleon. It's like the clothes 371 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,959 Speaker 12: make the man. He thinks that if I see all 372 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,600 Speaker 12: this beautiful clothing, I'm not going to see through to 373 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 12: the heart of who he really is. So the clothing 374 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,359 Speaker 12: aspect doesn't surprise me. The idea of I think you 375 00:22:25,440 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 12: said sixty four percent of people wandering around in the 376 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 12: middle of the night in a college town being criminals 377 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 12: of some sort, and the fact that with Coberger and Bundy, 378 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 12: both these crimes took place in sorority houses, and this 379 00:22:39,840 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 12: doesn't surprise me. This parallel because women between the ages 380 00:22:44,320 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 12: of eighteen and twenty two or twenty three, they're young, 381 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:54,320 Speaker 12: they're beautiful, they're out and about. They are readily available 382 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 12: the sociopath. The sociopath can walk up, doc to them, 383 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:03,120 Speaker 12: charm them, figure out where they live, and typically they 384 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,119 Speaker 12: have very low levels of security around them. And I 385 00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,199 Speaker 12: could go on and on, but these girls are like 386 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:12,560 Speaker 12: sitting ducks. And I think this is one of the 387 00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:17,000 Speaker 12: most prominent similarities I see is in the victim selection 388 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 12: and the profiling of the women that two of these 389 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 12: two men murdered guys. 390 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:26,720 Speaker 2: We explore all of this and parallels of Evil, which 391 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 2: is running right now on Fox Nation. 392 00:23:29,600 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: It was a herculean effort. 393 00:23:32,160 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 3: We all went to Idaho in the snow, in the cold, 394 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:42,280 Speaker 3: retraced coburger steps, visited the crime scene. Take a listen 395 00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:47,760 Speaker 3: to Parallels of Evil the Bundy in Idaho killing. 396 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:52,040 Speaker 2: Standing right here, I can see straight in the sliding 397 00:23:52,040 --> 00:23:56,160 Speaker 2: glass doors you see inside, and it's not even illuminated 398 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:01,359 Speaker 2: right now. This makes it very clear to me how 399 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 2: easy it was to get to that downstairs sliding glass door. 400 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,800 Speaker 2: We've been asked many times how close is this to campus. Well, 401 00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:13,840 Speaker 2: there's a Seve McCay house right there. I can see 402 00:24:13,880 --> 00:24:16,600 Speaker 2: in their windows. Right behind that is a hill that 403 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,760 Speaker 2: we have been seeing people walking back and forth to classes. 404 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 2: The campus water tower is right there, and all along 405 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 2: this street in front of eleven twenty two King, all 406 00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 2: day long into the night, students with their backpacks have 407 00:24:31,240 --> 00:24:34,879 Speaker 2: been going back and forth to classes into campus. So 408 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 2: this is a vantage point with a bird's eye views. 409 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:43,120 Speaker 2: I wonder if by the time this goes to a jury, 410 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 2: if the jury is going to be brought here, if 411 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,080 Speaker 2: they're going to stand here just like I'm standing here, 412 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:54,560 Speaker 2: just like where I think Brian Coburger stood here at night, 413 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,600 Speaker 2: in the cover of darkness, looking in at the girls. 414 00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:02,000 Speaker 1: It's the birds view into their bedrooms. 415 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:07,639 Speaker 2: Everything we could think of to explore and investigate this case, 416 00:25:07,760 --> 00:25:14,520 Speaker 2: to Coburger's apartment, to his neighbors, to his school, everywhere 417 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 2: we could think of that Coburger was. 418 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: We went. Listen to this. We are off the pavement. 419 00:25:22,560 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 2: Now we're on a dirt top road, seemingly in the 420 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:31,760 Speaker 2: middle of nothing, following Coburger's route from the so called 421 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 2: murder house back to his apartment in Pullman. And as 422 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,520 Speaker 2: you can see, there is nothing, no lights, no homes, 423 00:25:40,760 --> 00:25:44,480 Speaker 2: no businesses as far as the I can see. I 424 00:25:44,640 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 2: just got out of this SCV and looked around that night. 425 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 2: Could be anywhere. If you don't want to run into anybody, 426 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 2: this is the place to be. It is pitch dark 427 00:25:58,280 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 2: out there. 428 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 1: You can't see. 429 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 2: Thing past forty feet in front of your car, and 430 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,240 Speaker 2: there are a million places to hide. A nine. 431 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,080 Speaker 1: You don't just fall onto this back road right here. 432 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 1: You got to know where you're going. 433 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 8: Between two. 434 00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 2: Snowdrifts on either side, you got to know where you're. 435 00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,320 Speaker 3: Going to Bill Warren joining me private investigator, you can 436 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:31,920 Speaker 3: find him at WBPI dot com. Bill, thank you for 437 00:26:31,960 --> 00:26:32,680 Speaker 3: being with us. 438 00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:33,080 Speaker 1: Bill. 439 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 2: Have you ever encountered a client, a defendant, a suspect 440 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:41,480 Speaker 2: who just used evil? 441 00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 5: Oh? 442 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:42,399 Speaker 10: Of course not. 443 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 13: But what I find most interesting, though, is what John 444 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 13: mentioned about Bundy during the trial and Tallahassee. Bundy never 445 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,919 Speaker 13: really would admit to his guilt. Even when he was 446 00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 13: offered a plea deal for seventy five years in prison, 447 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 13: he passed on it and went ahead with a trial. 448 00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,600 Speaker 13: Of course, has felled guilty and went to old sparky. 449 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:11,800 Speaker 13: But I'm seeing sort of a parallel with Dka already. 450 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:16,280 Speaker 13: When he was arringed recently, the judge asked for you know, 451 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 13: guilty and not guilty plea. He wouldn't talk, and the 452 00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,479 Speaker 13: attorney for him, two attorneys for him, didn't weigh in 453 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:27,879 Speaker 13: with you know, a non guilty or guilty. The judge 454 00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 13: had to give the not guilty plea. It looks to 455 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:35,280 Speaker 13: me like Coburger is trying to overtake his attorneys already, 456 00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:39,040 Speaker 13: he's going to make a show of this, which of 457 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 13: course Bundy did big time. Looking into both of these guys, Faberger, 458 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 13: is he does he want to be Bundy? I think 459 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,440 Speaker 13: he does Folberger to me, I see this this clone 460 00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:52,120 Speaker 13: of Bundy. 461 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:54,600 Speaker 10: This is John Henry. Let me jump in here on 462 00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,520 Speaker 10: because there's been a lot of discussions about why his 463 00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:03,159 Speaker 10: attorney at Coberger's attorneys asked the replea. And there's no 464 00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:07,240 Speaker 10: insanity defense in Idaho, which is interesting because I thought 465 00:28:07,240 --> 00:28:13,040 Speaker 10: it was constitutional under mcgontten. But anyway, when I've tried 466 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,159 Speaker 10: tied or three indred cases and been doing this for 467 00:28:16,160 --> 00:28:18,199 Speaker 10: a long time, if I have a client that I 468 00:28:18,200 --> 00:28:23,600 Speaker 10: think is incompetence, legally incompetent, I will not allow them 469 00:28:23,640 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 10: to Replease. I don't think you're here at all. 470 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:28,199 Speaker 2: Well wait a minute, John Henry Brown, I see what 471 00:28:28,200 --> 00:28:33,320 Speaker 2: you're saying. Because mental incompetency everybody different from insanity. Insanity 472 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 2: under the Ole McNaughton rule, which is brought to the 473 00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 2: US from Great Britain, where we get our common law 474 00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 2: is did you know right from wrong at the time 475 00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 2: of the incident. 476 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,400 Speaker 1: If you didn't, you're crazy. 477 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,640 Speaker 2: Incompetency means you can you're you're so out of it 478 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, you cannot. 479 00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:51,000 Speaker 1: Assist your lawyers at trial. 480 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,760 Speaker 2: Now, this jurisdiction Idaho does have incompetency if he can 481 00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 2: interplea and stand up and say not guilty. 482 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 1: That indicse he can help his lawyer, which. 483 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:07,160 Speaker 3: Would, as John Henry Brown is pointing out, defeat an 484 00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:08,880 Speaker 3: incompetency claim. 485 00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: That's very stupid, right. 486 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 10: I think ethically a defense lawyer can't allow its plis 487 00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:17,760 Speaker 10: to make a plea if the lawyer has reasonable beliefs 488 00:29:17,800 --> 00:29:21,120 Speaker 10: that they may be incompetent. Now may be the only 489 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 10: card to play in Idaho. 490 00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: It may be. 491 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 2: But what they'll do is send him to a hospital 492 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:28,400 Speaker 2: and get him quote well unquote and an old face trial. 493 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 10: Yes, exactly. 494 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:45,080 Speaker 9: Time stories with Nancy Grace. 495 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,400 Speaker 2: I want to follow up on something to Augy Conklin 496 00:29:50,560 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 2: and Joe Scott Morgan, Joe Scott. First to you, Professor Forensics, 497 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:59,600 Speaker 2: Jacksonville State University, Joe Scott, we're talking about how. 498 00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: Charming Bundy was. 499 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:09,200 Speaker 2: I well, describe what he would do post mortem after 500 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:11,400 Speaker 2: murdering his victims. 501 00:30:11,760 --> 00:30:14,160 Speaker 8: Well, one of the things that he would do is 502 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 8: he would he was actually somewhat of a necrophile, Nancy, 503 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,920 Speaker 8: which means that he was intimate with the dead. 504 00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:26,040 Speaker 3: Why do you talk like that he had sex with 505 00:30:26,120 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 3: dead bodies and dead body parts. 506 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,120 Speaker 1: That's what you're saying, yeah, he did. 507 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:36,680 Speaker 8: Well, No, I don't think that it's trauma at all, certainly, 508 00:30:36,720 --> 00:30:41,640 Speaker 8: And I've seen cases like this involving serial serial perpetrators 509 00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,600 Speaker 8: in the past, particularly when they get into areas like 510 00:30:44,640 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 8: the posing of the dead, this kind of fantastical thing 511 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:47,800 Speaker 8: that they do. 512 00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 2: He was freak yeah, redress the victims, put makeup on them, 513 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 2: and he. 514 00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 8: Would actually go back and disinter the dead as well. 515 00:30:57,200 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 8: And so yeah, there's there's that kind of thread that 516 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 8: runs through this, and it's almost like a continued destruction 517 00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 8: of the dead to be able to manipulate them, play 518 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 8: around with them, those sorts of things, which adds a 519 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 8: completely a different layer of horror to all of this, 520 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 8: and it really goes to how deeply sadistic he was. 521 00:31:19,200 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 8: And you know, one other other fact about Bundy is 522 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:26,760 Speaker 8: that Bundy derived quite a bit of pleasure from a 523 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 8: very specific thing, and that's biting. He enjoyed biting his 524 00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 8: victims because he could actually experience their discomfort and their 525 00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,800 Speaker 8: pain as a result of driving his teeth, you know, 526 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:42,920 Speaker 8: for instance, into their backside, into their shoulders, into their 527 00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 8: back and of course, back then, bite Mark was still 528 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 8: held in very high esteem and it was actually used well. 529 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,360 Speaker 2: Bundy did have an unusual set of chompers. 530 00:31:54,080 --> 00:31:54,960 Speaker 8: He did. 531 00:31:54,960 --> 00:31:57,560 Speaker 2: He did stumpared to biding into jello. I don't put 532 00:31:57,560 --> 00:31:59,360 Speaker 2: a lot of stock in forensic dentistry. 533 00:31:59,560 --> 00:31:59,720 Speaker 10: No. 534 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 2: In Brundy's case, his teeth marks were so unusual that 535 00:32:06,360 --> 00:32:08,000 Speaker 2: I think it can be trusted. 536 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:09,400 Speaker 1: In Bundy's. 537 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:15,360 Speaker 10: The bite Martin Kenna is not really persuasive, and because 538 00:32:15,400 --> 00:32:20,360 Speaker 10: it wasn't Joe Nancy was pigs that the odontologist had 539 00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 10: people bite into, which I had had some fun with him. 540 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 10: At one point it. 541 00:32:24,520 --> 00:32:28,480 Speaker 2: Was Margaret Bowman that had the bite marks. Thank you 542 00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,240 Speaker 2: John Henry Brown for telling me that. 543 00:32:30,800 --> 00:32:32,520 Speaker 10: Another thing to keep in mind with one of the 544 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,960 Speaker 10: things that I find striking about Colberg and Brundy is 545 00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:40,479 Speaker 10: that there was no sex involved in the death of 546 00:32:40,560 --> 00:32:44,200 Speaker 10: the women at Cairomega, And there was no sex as 547 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,840 Speaker 10: far as I know, as far as the situation. You're right, 548 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 10: and I talked to Ted about these things that length. 549 00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,640 Speaker 10: He would more often than not not have sex with 550 00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 10: his victims, but there are times when he would. 551 00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:57,720 Speaker 2: I guess he was more to having sex with him 552 00:32:57,760 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 2: after they were dead and their body parts. 553 00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,680 Speaker 1: What about it? Jos Scott the. 554 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:04,880 Speaker 8: Fact again playing with the dead, you know, where you 555 00:33:05,000 --> 00:33:08,760 Speaker 8: have this inanimate individual that they can manipulate, and you 556 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,840 Speaker 8: see it in a lot of these cases. You just 557 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,520 Speaker 8: look at Dahmer, you know, he wanted to create these 558 00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:16,160 Speaker 8: kind of zombies that he could manipulate and do things 559 00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 8: with them, and otherwise an uncontrolled life. Perhaps I don't 560 00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:23,400 Speaker 8: know I'm getting into doctor Bethany's area, but suffice it 561 00:33:23,480 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 8: to say that, you know, it was a depraved mind, 562 00:33:29,160 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 8: certainly in his particular case. And we see a lot 563 00:33:31,720 --> 00:33:33,880 Speaker 8: of these, and that's one of the things that really 564 00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:37,400 Speaker 8: goes to coburger for me, Nancy, because he had access 565 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 8: to this particular dwelling. We don't think that at this 566 00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 8: point in time that there's any kind of sexual assault, 567 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 8: but that doesn't mean that these were not a sexualized 568 00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,360 Speaker 8: event and he could be living this stuff out in 569 00:33:49,400 --> 00:33:55,960 Speaker 8: his mind. I've always been interested, very interested since that apartment, 570 00:33:56,080 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 8: since that home in Idaho was so easily accessible. Had 571 00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:02,600 Speaker 8: he been in there before? Did he have a hide 572 00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,200 Speaker 8: perhaps in one of those closets. Did they look for 573 00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,440 Speaker 8: touch DNA? Did they look for old seminal stains in 574 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,000 Speaker 8: those closets where he could sit there and observe individuals, 575 00:34:12,160 --> 00:34:16,239 Speaker 8: perhaps the victims that he targeted, and watch everything they 576 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 8: were doing without him, without them knowing that he was there. 577 00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 11: Joe, what about the stab wounds in their appearance, where 578 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:23,399 Speaker 11: were they? 579 00:34:23,960 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 8: Well, the stab wounds are through over multiple surfaces from 580 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 8: what we're understanding right now, And of course there's a 581 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 8: lot of people that allege this is a people in 582 00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 8: academia that there is a close correlation between stabbing and 583 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,719 Speaker 8: sexualization of the dead. It's the thought of thrusting with 584 00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:46,480 Speaker 8: a knife over and over and over. It's a penetrative 585 00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:51,319 Speaker 8: event and again you' wreaking just incredible havoc. There's an 586 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:55,279 Speaker 8: awareness of it too. There is an awareness certainly on 587 00:34:55,280 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 8: one of the victims that we know of, because she's 588 00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 8: got defensive wounds on her where she was a where 589 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 8: that she was being stabbed. And I think you probably 590 00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 8: derive pleasure from the guys. 591 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:06,319 Speaker 2: I want to circle back to Audrey Conklin, joining us 592 00:35:06,360 --> 00:35:10,399 Speaker 2: investigative crime reporter for Fox News Digital, who has been 593 00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,680 Speaker 2: on the Coburger case from the get go. Audrey, again, 594 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 2: thank you for being with us when in our special 595 00:35:17,000 --> 00:35:20,280 Speaker 2: investigation Parallels of Evil, where we go back to Ida 596 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,640 Speaker 2: and retrace steps and visit every location that we can 597 00:35:25,719 --> 00:35:30,920 Speaker 2: think of to shine light on the investigation. We began 598 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: comparing Bundy and Coburger. Now, Audrey, did you hear us 599 00:35:38,120 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 2: talking about how Bundy could be very charming and could 600 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,680 Speaker 2: blend in even with his own lawyer, John Henry Brown, 601 00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,960 Speaker 2: who's with us right now. I'm thinking about Coburger and 602 00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: how he tried to insinuate himself in the victims' lives 603 00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,920 Speaker 2: on social media. So he was stalking them long before 604 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:02,920 Speaker 2: they were murdered, based on what we've been told. 605 00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:04,840 Speaker 1: Anyway, we don't. 606 00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:08,760 Speaker 2: Know if the girls read it or not, but trying 607 00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,319 Speaker 2: to insinuate himself in their lives. But he did not 608 00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:16,120 Speaker 2: have the natural charm that Bundy had. 609 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:18,400 Speaker 1: He couldn't turn it on and turn it off. Listen. 610 00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:22,080 Speaker 14: When I met his dad, he was like, so a 611 00:36:22,160 --> 00:36:24,400 Speaker 14: song was down outside at first because the gun was 612 00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:27,239 Speaker 14: out there. Brian must have been organizing the out of 613 00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:29,960 Speaker 14: the apartment. He was like, why should beat my son? 614 00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 10: Brian? 615 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: And he has some trouble making trend sometime. 616 00:36:33,000 --> 00:36:36,640 Speaker 14: And then he came down and he was a little odd, 617 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:38,320 Speaker 14: you know, but I'm kind of honest on people, so 618 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:39,360 Speaker 14: I didn't think much of it. 619 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 2: Remember how he almost, well not almost, he did get 620 00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 2: thrown out of bars for walking up to women and 621 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:50,960 Speaker 2: trying to, I guess, flirt with him. And his opening 622 00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:52,919 Speaker 2: line would be, Hey, what's your home address? 623 00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, well that didn't work. The emails or the social 624 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 3: media didn't work. So I wonder if he then escalated 625 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 3: a spy on them in some manner the way just 626 00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 3: Scott Morgan is describing. So what do you make of 627 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 3: his just innate, unsophisticated, and somewhat of stumbling bumpkin approach 628 00:37:18,160 --> 00:37:22,320 Speaker 3: to women. Audrey Conkline, that's a stark difference between the two. 629 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:25,840 Speaker 7: It is, And that's kind of the difference between a 630 00:37:25,920 --> 00:37:29,720 Speaker 7: crime in the nineteen seventies and today we have. Social 631 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 7: media is a huge part of it, right, And there's 632 00:37:32,120 --> 00:37:36,399 Speaker 7: speculation that he followed the victims on social media. They 633 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,239 Speaker 7: were in sororities, as we know, they had social media 634 00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,920 Speaker 7: presences that were public. They had pretty pictures on Instagram 635 00:37:43,080 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 7: and other accounts, So yeah, their social lives were out 636 00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:50,600 Speaker 7: there for him to see. And if he was not 637 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,760 Speaker 7: having luck with them online, because a lot of flirting 638 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,640 Speaker 7: takes place online or even just talking communication nowadays between 639 00:37:57,640 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 7: college students. You know, we know from the affidavit that 640 00:38:02,239 --> 00:38:06,920 Speaker 7: he drove by the house before the crimes, and after 641 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:10,719 Speaker 7: the and after the murders or allegedly you know, his 642 00:38:11,239 --> 00:38:15,360 Speaker 7: car was picked up in that area. So we know 643 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 7: that there was a speculator, a fascination there with the victims. 644 00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:23,440 Speaker 7: And we also know that he was a PhD student 645 00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:26,600 Speaker 7: studying criminology at a nearby university that was about a 646 00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 7: ten minute drive. 647 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: Away to doctor Bethany. 648 00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,600 Speaker 3: What about the fact that was just brought out doctor 649 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:42,480 Speaker 3: Bethany that neither Bundy nor Coburger had sex right these victims, 650 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:44,399 Speaker 3: and I'm not talking about all the victims, I'm talking 651 00:38:44,440 --> 00:38:48,160 Speaker 3: about the coy Omega victims and the Idaho victims. 652 00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 12: I think that Coberger and Bundy were so perverse, so 653 00:38:53,239 --> 00:38:59,719 Speaker 12: depraved that normal penetration asking a girl out, wowing them 654 00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 12: to them to dinner, a courting them, maybe eventually marrying 655 00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:11,200 Speaker 12: or having sex, these normal interactions between adults. They were 656 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,880 Speaker 12: too far gone. They were too far down the depravity scale. 657 00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:19,040 Speaker 12: So the fact that that they didn't penetrate doesn't mean 658 00:39:19,080 --> 00:39:23,000 Speaker 12: that it wasn't sexual in nature. It could be as 659 00:39:23,080 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 12: Joe Scott Morgan pointed out, as they were as a 660 00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,919 Speaker 12: Coburger perhaps hanging out in the closet watching these students 661 00:39:30,960 --> 00:39:35,120 Speaker 12: masturbating to thoughts of them, and not just thoughts of 662 00:39:35,600 --> 00:39:39,799 Speaker 12: caressing them, having sex with them, penetrating them, but masturbating 663 00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 12: to the thoughts of plunging the knife into them, which, 664 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,359 Speaker 12: as another panelist pointed out, is kind of a pseudo sexual. 665 00:39:46,120 --> 00:39:46,760 Speaker 10: Type of act. 666 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,760 Speaker 12: Plunging the knife like plunging the penis. And remember, Coburger, 667 00:39:51,880 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 12: there was another victim where she took a suitcase out 668 00:39:54,200 --> 00:39:57,680 Speaker 12: of her car, rummaged the items about out, took a 669 00:39:57,719 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 12: pair of underwear, and then stuffed it into a couple 670 00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:02,880 Speaker 12: hop holder, which I also thought was sort of a 671 00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 12: depraved pseudo sexual act. And you know, rage, anger, sadism, 672 00:40:08,680 --> 00:40:11,440 Speaker 12: all kind of coalesce in the mind of a serial killer. 673 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 12: So it could be that Coburger was stabbing the victims 674 00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 12: and then he was in a sexual frenzy stopped to masturbate. 675 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 12: You know, I know, it's hard to imagine all of 676 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 12: that happening at once, or masturbated on the way home, 677 00:40:25,080 --> 00:40:27,920 Speaker 12: so we can't think of it as sex in the 678 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:28,719 Speaker 12: normal way. 679 00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:34,120 Speaker 11: Many of these offenders have sexual erect insufficiency and can't 680 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,360 Speaker 11: do it anyway. That's part of their dilemma which makes them, 681 00:40:38,440 --> 00:40:40,200 Speaker 11: for some of them, crazy. 682 00:40:39,760 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 10: As they are. 683 00:40:40,680 --> 00:40:44,520 Speaker 2: That is Del Carson speaking John Henry Brown, quick question, 684 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:50,880 Speaker 2: as you have watched the Coburger case unfold, what memories 685 00:40:50,920 --> 00:40:54,520 Speaker 2: has it brought back to you regarding your time with 686 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:56,520 Speaker 2: Ted Bundy and how do you compare it. 687 00:40:56,520 --> 00:40:59,759 Speaker 10: To Wed like to see Nancy And everybody should know 688 00:40:59,840 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 10: that Ted actually gave me a release of the attorney 689 00:41:02,200 --> 00:41:05,800 Speaker 10: client privilege, otherwise I would not be having this conversation. Okay, 690 00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 10: what tep is you remember? I'm sure you've seen the 691 00:41:11,080 --> 00:41:14,400 Speaker 10: composite drawing done by witnesses at Caro Banka of the 692 00:41:14,400 --> 00:41:16,640 Speaker 10: guy going up the stairs with a stick in his hands. 693 00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:21,520 Speaker 10: And now anybody in the task Force in Washington or 694 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,960 Speaker 10: Idaho or Utah or Colorado would immediately say that's Ted Bundy. 695 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:30,440 Speaker 10: But we didn't have social media back then. We didn't 696 00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:33,919 Speaker 10: have communication between police authorities the way we do now. 697 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:37,120 Speaker 10: Because any of the task Force members in this area 698 00:41:37,320 --> 00:41:42,160 Speaker 10: or Colorado or Utah would say that's Ted Bundy, it 699 00:41:42,200 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 10: would be solved immediately because that's strikingly similar composite of Ted, 700 00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:52,319 Speaker 10: what I found is, you know, I think all I 701 00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 10: can say is that both incidents and the ones we 702 00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,280 Speaker 10: know about what Ted are, the ones that are alleged 703 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 10: against Skoburger, are rage, and being a sociopath does not 704 00:42:02,680 --> 00:42:05,719 Speaker 10: being crazy. Sociopaths don't always have to be criminals. I 705 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:10,439 Speaker 10: mean sometimes there, let's say politicians. The rage is what 706 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:13,919 Speaker 10: The first thing I thought about when I heard about 707 00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 10: Cobger was the rage and how the rage was similar 708 00:42:18,080 --> 00:42:21,480 Speaker 10: to Ted's and the reasons for that. I don't know 709 00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 10: that he was a sociopath or the question about it 710 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 10: in my mind. I don't know about Coburger. I'd be 711 00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:32,200 Speaker 10: speculating at this point, but the rage is really scary, 712 00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:36,800 Speaker 10: and I don't know. I wonder. I wonder whether the 713 00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,280 Speaker 10: authorities are investigating the possibility of other homicides with Coberger. 714 00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:46,600 Speaker 3: Yes, yes, guys, we explore this and so much more 715 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 3: in Parallels of Evil play now on Foxination. I want 716 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,840 Speaker 3: to thank all of my guests that joined me today, 717 00:42:54,560 --> 00:42:59,359 Speaker 3: and I'll see you again lady and gentlemen in round two. 718 00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:01,160 Speaker 1: Goodbye, said