WEBVTT - #525 Jason Flom with Willie "Pete" Williams

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<v Speaker 1>Hey everyone, it's Ben Bollen again from the podcast Stuff

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<v Speaker 1>They Don't Want You to Know, and I'm back to

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<v Speaker 1>introduce another one of my favorite episodes of Wrongful Conviction. However,

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<v Speaker 1>before we do that, I'm here to tell you that

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<v Speaker 1>coming up next week, there are some truly exciting things

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<v Speaker 1>on the way from the Lava for Good team and myself,

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<v Speaker 1>so be sure to tune in for that now. This

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<v Speaker 1>week's release is another one that hits close to home

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<v Speaker 1>for me. This is a story about a serial rapist

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<v Speaker 1>that was perpetrating his crimes along a stretch of road

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<v Speaker 1>that runs through Atlanta into a separate jurisdiction just north

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<v Speaker 1>of the city, where only one of the police departments

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<v Speaker 1>got it right and the other well. Their district attorney

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<v Speaker 1>went to prison himself, so without any further ado, the

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<v Speaker 1>wrongful conviction of Willie Pete Williams.

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<v Speaker 2>This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence

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<v Speaker 2>Network conference in twenty nineteen. On April fifth, nineteen eighty five,

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<v Speaker 2>a woman was exiting her car at a parking lot

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<v Speaker 2>just north of Atlanta when a man approached, asking about

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<v Speaker 2>a woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he

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<v Speaker 2>pulled a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove

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<v Speaker 2>to a dead end, and proceeded to rape her. After

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<v Speaker 2>the attack, the victim went to the hospital for a

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<v Speaker 2>rape kit. With a well lit parking lot and over

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<v Speaker 2>forty five minutes with her attacker, she was able to

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<v Speaker 2>put together a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near

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<v Speaker 2>identical incident occurred along the same stretch of road. A

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<v Speaker 2>man approached a woman in a parking lot asking for

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<v Speaker 2>carol before using a threat of violence to get her

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<v Speaker 2>back into the car. However, this time the victim was

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<v Speaker 2>able to talk the attacker into leaving.

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<v Speaker 3>Before a rape occurred.

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<v Speaker 2>The police showed this would be victim the composite sketch,

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<v Speaker 2>and it appeared there was a serial rapist operating in

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<v Speaker 2>the North Atlanta area. Then, on April twenty eighth, Willie

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<v Speaker 2>Pete Williams, along with two of his friends, were stopped

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<v Speaker 2>by police for suspicious behavior in the area of the attacks.

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<v Speaker 2>Police noticed that Pete resembled the sketch and came up

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<v Speaker 2>with a reason to arrest him, saying that he gave

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<v Speaker 2>them false information in order to bring him in to

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<v Speaker 2>be photographed. His photo was shown to both women for

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<v Speaker 2>a positive ID. While Pete was locked up, three more

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<v Speaker 2>attacks would occur with the same mom, but it was

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<v Speaker 2>already too late. Pete Williams spent nearly twenty two years

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<v Speaker 2>in prison before DNA testing proved that another man was

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<v Speaker 2>responsible for all five attacks. This is Wrongful Conviction with

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<v Speaker 2>Jason Plumm. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

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<v Speaker 2>to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

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<v Speaker 2>week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

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<v Speaker 2>Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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<v Speaker 2>This episode is going to be a very unique one.

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<v Speaker 2>We have with us Pete Williams, who served twenty two

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<v Speaker 2>years in Georgia prisons for a rape he did not commit.

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<v Speaker 2>Two rapes, actually they did not commit. And with him

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<v Speaker 2>is Drew Finling, who is a how can I say,

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<v Speaker 2>enigmatic character, famous for his work representing some of the

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<v Speaker 2>top hip hop artis in the world, and he's also

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<v Speaker 2>now the president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

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<v Speaker 2>He got involved in criminal defense work because of Pete's case,

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<v Speaker 2>but they never met it till today. Correct, So this

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<v Speaker 2>is going to be a fun ride and I'm excited

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<v Speaker 2>to be honest. So Pete, welcome, and the same to you, Drew. Absolutely,

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<v Speaker 2>And like I always say, Pete, I'm sorry you're here,

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<v Speaker 2>but I'm glad you're here. And I want to tell

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<v Speaker 2>your story because I think it's an important story for

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of reasons. I guess at the heart of

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<v Speaker 2>it is a mistaken witness identification more than one actually,

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<v Speaker 2>and it's a really important thing for us to talk

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<v Speaker 2>about because it's so common. But can you take us

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<v Speaker 2>back to I mean, this is a long time ago, right,

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<v Speaker 2>because you were exonerating in two thousand and seven, yes,

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<v Speaker 2>but the help of the Innocence Project. So this crime

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<v Speaker 2>goes all the way back to the mid eighties.

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<v Speaker 3>Right, yeah, eighty five?

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<v Speaker 2>And what were you up to back then? What was

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<v Speaker 2>your life like? What was going on in Pete's world?

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<v Speaker 4>Most An was working, I had dropped out of school,

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<v Speaker 4>really didn't have much going on other than freedom.

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<v Speaker 2>How old were you?

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<v Speaker 3>I just had twenty three.

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<v Speaker 2>So you're twenty three. You got charged with originally one.

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<v Speaker 3>Rape, right, yeah, one way right at the time.

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<v Speaker 2>And let's talk about this awful rape which occurred on

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<v Speaker 2>April fifth, nineteen eighty five, which is when a woman

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<v Speaker 2>arrived at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road,

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<v Speaker 2>just north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out,

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<v Speaker 2>a man approached, pretending that he was looking for someone,

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<v Speaker 2>but when he got close, he pulled a gun and

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<v Speaker 2>forced her back into the car, then drove her at

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<v Speaker 2>gunpoint to a dead end street where he raped her.

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<v Speaker 2>Then he drove her back to her apartment complex, and

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<v Speaker 2>then he left on foot. So the victim then went

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<v Speaker 2>to the police and the hospital for a rape kit,

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<v Speaker 2>which means there was a sample of the rapist DNA,

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<v Speaker 2>And that becomes important later because after all, there was

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<v Speaker 2>no DNA testing back in nineteen eighty five anyway, So

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<v Speaker 2>later on though, we're going to get to that. So

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<v Speaker 2>by now, the victim had spent a considerable amount of

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<v Speaker 2>time with her attacker, and as a result, she was

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<v Speaker 2>able to help the police put together a composite sketch.

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<v Speaker 2>And this attacker had a particular mo too. Can you

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<v Speaker 2>talk about that, Drew.

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<v Speaker 5>Yeah, So what had happened is Roswell Road is a

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<v Speaker 5>very long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to

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<v Speaker 5>say it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with

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<v Speaker 5>things like that. But the real rapist was trolling up

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<v Speaker 5>and down and he would go to women and I

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<v Speaker 5>think they would kind of be in their twenties and

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<v Speaker 5>they would like blonde hair and blonde hair. And he

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<v Speaker 5>would say the same like have you seen and I

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<v Speaker 5>used to know the name Carol, Carol? Yeah, have you

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<v Speaker 5>seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car.

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<v Speaker 2>Right. So, five days after the first rape, on April tenth,

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<v Speaker 2>nearly the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this

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<v Speaker 2>ended up being an attempted rape, but still the same, Hey,

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<v Speaker 2>do you know Carol or where's Carol? Accept his second

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<v Speaker 2>victim when he tried to get her to take off

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<v Speaker 2>her clothes. I don't know how, but she was able

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<v Speaker 2>to talk him out of raping her. She went to

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<v Speaker 2>the police. They hear this similar MO from just five

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<v Speaker 2>days before, and they show her the composite sketch and

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<v Speaker 2>she agreed that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So, Pete,

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<v Speaker 2>you've got nothing to do with this. You had nothing

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<v Speaker 2>to do this, but you lived in the area, So

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<v Speaker 2>can you tell us how you were dragged into this?

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<v Speaker 2>When you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell

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<v Speaker 2>Road one night.

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<v Speaker 3>I was riding out right on Roswell and it was

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<v Speaker 3>stopping my car. It was stopped.

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<v Speaker 4>I was passing on the car, So it was a

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<v Speaker 4>compositive skates going around in that area. So the way

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<v Speaker 4>that they arrested me, they told that I gave them

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<v Speaker 4>false information. That's just to get me there and get

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<v Speaker 4>my photograph, my picture to show the witness because I

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<v Speaker 4>gave them information while I was staying everything adequate.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, you gave them accurate information.

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<v Speaker 4>Yes, of course, yeah, And they said yeah, they said

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<v Speaker 4>it was false. So you know, I couldn't all get

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<v Speaker 4>the police. So you're stop by the police.

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<v Speaker 2>They have this composite sketch in the back of their

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<v Speaker 2>minds and they come up with a reason. They said

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<v Speaker 2>that you gave them false information, which wasn't true, but

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<v Speaker 2>they wanted an excuse to get your photograph to share

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<v Speaker 2>with these two women because they thought that you looked

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<v Speaker 2>enough like the sketch, so they arrested you.

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<v Speaker 3>Then what I was there for a while.

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<v Speaker 4>Wait, I was there maybe about four or five hours,

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<v Speaker 4>but it was a relative cheap.

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<v Speaker 3>Bomb, you know.

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<v Speaker 4>So I was born out maybe three to four hours

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<v Speaker 4>after I was arrested, and two weeks later I was

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<v Speaker 4>truble was rape, accuvate uselt and accovate us solomy, and

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<v Speaker 4>I was arrested and.

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't know what they was talking about.

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<v Speaker 2>Had you even heard about these?

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't have the slightest idea.

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<v Speaker 4>They said it was from POSSI circuling of rape was

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<v Speaker 4>out in that area, and I resembled it.

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<v Speaker 2>Now did that sketch actually resemble you? Yeah, it actually did, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So so you resembled the sketch.

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<v Speaker 3>So that was dead.

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<v Speaker 4>I didn't, you know, I didn't. I haven't raped anybody.

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<v Speaker 4>I just resembled it on positive sketch.

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<v Speaker 2>The sketch resembled you. And then I'm presuming you were

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<v Speaker 2>identified as well in the lineup on court.

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<v Speaker 4>Oh, it was a lineup, and I was identified doing

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<v Speaker 4>the trial as well.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, we know that I witness misidentification is the

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<v Speaker 2>leading cause of runful convictions.

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<v Speaker 5>And look, I'm just not the biggest believer in the

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<v Speaker 5>composite sketch because the composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not

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<v Speaker 5>the perpetrator, and so it just happened to have favored him.

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<v Speaker 5>And then it's the composite sketch and anybody that looks

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<v Speaker 5>like them that replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So

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<v Speaker 5>I'm just not a believer in the whole composite sketch thing.

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<v Speaker 5>I just don't like where they lead, as in convictions

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<v Speaker 5>of innocent people in cases like this.

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<v Speaker 2>So the charges were rape, aggravated assault, and aggravated sod

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<v Speaker 2>of me and true this is where you first entered

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<v Speaker 2>the picture. He became aware of Pete's case, and this

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<v Speaker 2>is at his trial where you were just a young

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<v Speaker 2>man just out of law school pretty much right at.

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<v Speaker 5>The time, I was twenty five years old. I was

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<v Speaker 5>fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant

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<v Speaker 5>public defender assigned to mister William's courtroom where his case

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<v Speaker 5>took place. And I made it my practice then that

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<v Speaker 5>was just watch every case I could. I got it

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<v Speaker 5>up and I loved my job as a public defender,

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<v Speaker 5>and I just had him to watch his case and

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<v Speaker 5>then really started learning about it, and I watched the trial.

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<v Speaker 5>So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very

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<v Speaker 5>long stretch of road in Atlanta, but at some point

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<v Speaker 5>along the road it is the city of Atlanta, and

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<v Speaker 5>then it's no longer the city of Atlanta. Well, the

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<v Speaker 5>real rapist because it wasn't mister Williams. Anybody that watched

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<v Speaker 5>the trial would realize that because I watched the trial

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<v Speaker 5>and I'll talk about that later, and it was obvious

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<v Speaker 5>he was innocent. So, Jason, here's the crazy thing. One

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<v Speaker 5>jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police. On the

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<v Speaker 5>other part of the road was Fulton County police. To

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<v Speaker 5>this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into did

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<v Speaker 5>they ever talk to one another? And in fact, if

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<v Speaker 5>you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the City

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<v Speaker 5>of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist.

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<v Speaker 5>But yet on the other side of the sign was

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<v Speaker 5>this case involving mister Williams. And I've apparently he got

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<v Speaker 5>arrested and then eventually they arrested the other guy who

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<v Speaker 5>I think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor,

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<v Speaker 5>His case was on the seventh floor. Was on the seven, Yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>he was on seventh, on the eighth You're right, yeah,

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<v Speaker 5>And he pled out during his trial and I went

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<v Speaker 5>and watched his also, because the Public Defender's office did

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<v Speaker 5>that case.

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<v Speaker 2>Wait, how far apart were the two difference?

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<v Speaker 5>I can't remember the dates they weren't too far apart.

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<v Speaker 5>But I watched his and I read up on his

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<v Speaker 5>and I was like, well, this guy did it, and

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<v Speaker 5>it was astonishing, And.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's go back to the pattern, right, because for whatever reason,

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<v Speaker 2>the attacker always did the same damn thing. Maybe he

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<v Speaker 2>thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing

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<v Speaker 2>these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol

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<v Speaker 2>or Carolyn. Why he was fixating on that, Yeah, but

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<v Speaker 2>that was his thing. And he also had this car

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<v Speaker 2>that broke down a lot because a number of the

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<v Speaker 2>women and reported that. And what's crazy is that after

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<v Speaker 2>Pete was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the

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<v Speaker 2>same damn mL right, with exactly the same pattern, the

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<v Speaker 2>exact same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible

0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:19.200
<v Speaker 2>clearly for all five attacks, but he only face charges

0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:22.480
<v Speaker 2>related to those three, And so the other two attacks

0:12:22.520 --> 0:12:25.440
<v Speaker 2>repined on you Pete and this other guy, Kenneth Wicker.

0:12:25.480 --> 0:12:29.280
<v Speaker 2>He finally got caught because his last victim heroically was

0:12:29.320 --> 0:12:32.720
<v Speaker 2>able to take down her attacker's license plate number. And

0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:36.880
<v Speaker 2>it turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road

0:12:36.920 --> 0:12:41.240
<v Speaker 2>where all of these attacks were taking place, So it

0:12:41.280 --> 0:12:46.640
<v Speaker 2>would seem obvious to the casual observer that the DA

0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:49.880
<v Speaker 2>would hear about these other cases and this other arrest

0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:55.640
<v Speaker 2>and immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete. But that's not

0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.480
<v Speaker 2>what happened. And later all of this was brought up

0:12:59.520 --> 0:13:03.800
<v Speaker 2>in Europe, and I'm talking as early as nineteen eighty six,

0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:08.480
<v Speaker 2>but the DA just didn't fucking care about it then

0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.200
<v Speaker 2>or while he was prosecuting you in the first place.

0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:16.439
<v Speaker 5>Sir Jason, Pete and I we just met downstairs and

0:13:16.480 --> 0:13:19.600
<v Speaker 5>we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm about

0:13:19.640 --> 0:13:21.400
<v Speaker 5>to bring up which has bothered him to this day,

0:13:21.400 --> 0:13:22.520
<v Speaker 5>and I'm going to tell it to you. And that

0:13:22.640 --> 0:13:28.560
<v Speaker 5>is our system, right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for

0:13:28.720 --> 0:13:32.920
<v Speaker 5>Pete Williams, his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical,

0:13:33.640 --> 0:13:36.000
<v Speaker 5>as we know from several things, including the fact that

0:13:36.040 --> 0:13:38.280
<v Speaker 5>he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case

0:13:38.440 --> 0:13:38.840
<v Speaker 5>right now.

0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:39.599
<v Speaker 2>The prosecutor.

0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:44.000
<v Speaker 5>The prosecutor, oh blot twist, yes, I mean yeah, and

0:13:44.480 --> 0:13:48.200
<v Speaker 5>was also eventually charged not only with that murder, which

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:51.000
<v Speaker 5>he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer for

0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.840
<v Speaker 5>a drug operation when he was in private practice. So

0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:56.720
<v Speaker 5>not the best guy in the world. And I bring

0:13:56.760 --> 0:13:59.680
<v Speaker 5>that up only because you would fathom that a decent,

0:14:00.120 --> 0:14:03.240
<v Speaker 5>ethical prosecutor, which there are many of out there, would

0:14:03.280 --> 0:14:06.559
<v Speaker 5>have realized this having been the lead prosecutor mister Williams case,

0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:11.200
<v Speaker 5>and said, uh, oh, we got problems. And that never happened.

0:14:11.200 --> 0:14:15.079
<v Speaker 5>He never had the ethics of a prosecutor that realized

0:14:15.240 --> 0:14:18.600
<v Speaker 5>what you just said and wanted to put an end

0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:22.720
<v Speaker 5>to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen, and there

0:14:22.760 --> 0:14:23.640
<v Speaker 5>was a real breakdown.

0:14:24.680 --> 0:14:27.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I'm still trying to process this. This is a story.

0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:30.600
<v Speaker 2>I've heard a lot of stories and you know, doing

0:14:30.640 --> 0:14:32.000
<v Speaker 2>this since the early nineties.

0:14:32.520 --> 0:14:35.960
<v Speaker 5>The irony is Pete said to me outside we agreed.

0:14:36.160 --> 0:14:38.400
<v Speaker 5>How come that didn't become the biggest part of the

0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:43.280
<v Speaker 5>story of Pete Williams's illegal conviction and incarceration. As he said,

0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:46.800
<v Speaker 5>I was serving my sentence and my prosecutor was hearting

0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:50.040
<v Speaker 5>his sentence at the exact same time.

0:14:50.280 --> 0:14:52.800
<v Speaker 2>Oh so he went to prison while you were in this.

0:14:52.880 --> 0:14:54.080
<v Speaker 2>Well this is not the same.

0:14:53.920 --> 0:14:57.560
<v Speaker 4>Prison, not the same prison, but he went doing mind cusurrection.

0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:58.960
<v Speaker 2>Did you know that at the time?

0:14:59.080 --> 0:15:00.160
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I probably it.

0:15:00.200 --> 0:15:02.440
<v Speaker 5>Is on Tell me Jason was one of the biggest

0:15:02.920 --> 0:15:06.240
<v Speaker 5>cases in the history of Atlanta. Yeah, yeah, I can't

0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:08.800
<v Speaker 5>even think in my thirty plus years of practice of

0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:12.240
<v Speaker 5>a federal case that they changed venue. It was such

0:15:12.280 --> 0:15:15.240
<v Speaker 5>a big case. But they actually had to change venue

0:15:15.240 --> 0:15:18.320
<v Speaker 5>to Birmingham in his federal case, his murder case, they

0:15:18.400 --> 0:15:20.880
<v Speaker 5>changed venue as well, and did it somewhere in the woods.

0:15:20.920 --> 0:15:23.840
<v Speaker 5>I don't know, rural Georgia, somewhere, but they actually moved

0:15:23.840 --> 0:15:26.360
<v Speaker 5>his federal case to Birmingham because they just couldn't get

0:15:26.360 --> 0:15:29.280
<v Speaker 5>a jury in Atlanta. Fred Tokars is his name. It

0:15:29.320 --> 0:15:31.280
<v Speaker 5>was one of the biggest cases in the history of Atlanta.

0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:36.200
<v Speaker 2>So I took a second to look up Fred Tokars

0:15:36.280 --> 0:15:40.880
<v Speaker 2>and what I found out was batshit crazy, crazier than

0:15:40.920 --> 0:15:44.880
<v Speaker 2>what Pete and Drew had said. This Georgia prosecutor went

0:15:44.920 --> 0:15:47.120
<v Speaker 2>on to become a private attorney to some big time

0:15:47.200 --> 0:15:50.840
<v Speaker 2>drug dealers, but besides representing them, he was also helping

0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:55.600
<v Speaker 2>them hide their money in nightclubs, and eventually his wife, Sarah,

0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:58.360
<v Speaker 2>threatened to blow the whistle on his illegal and the

0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:02.840
<v Speaker 2>various activities, but instead of turning his life around, he

0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.720
<v Speaker 2>plotted to have her kidnapped and killed in front of

0:16:06.720 --> 0:16:09.240
<v Speaker 2>their four and six year old boys. Ricky and Mike.

0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:15.640
<v Speaker 2>I mean, what the actual buck. He was convicted of

0:16:15.800 --> 0:16:19.680
<v Speaker 2>racketeering in nineteen ninety four and eventually also convicted for

0:16:19.760 --> 0:16:24.360
<v Speaker 2>Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility of parole.

0:16:24.800 --> 0:16:27.480
<v Speaker 2>He was held in secret custody as a marked man,

0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:31.280
<v Speaker 2>and since this interview is recorded, despite his more treacherous

0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:35.600
<v Speaker 2>than usual situation in prison, Fred Tokers died in May

0:16:35.640 --> 0:16:40.080
<v Speaker 2>of twenty twenty in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to

0:16:40.160 --> 0:16:43.080
<v Speaker 2>complications related to a neurological disorder.

0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:47.880
<v Speaker 5>And that was the prosecutor that put mister Williams away.

0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.080
<v Speaker 2>So, I mean, it's just an unbelievable twist of fate,

0:16:51.320 --> 0:16:55.400
<v Speaker 2>right that the guy who was responsible for ruining your

0:16:55.480 --> 0:17:08.239
<v Speaker 2>life ends up in May. The Pacers Foundation is a

0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.760
<v Speaker 2>proud supporter of this episode and of the Last Mile organization,

0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.000
<v Speaker 2>which provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals

0:17:16.080 --> 0:17:20.600
<v Speaker 2>successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation

0:17:20.760 --> 0:17:24.040
<v Speaker 2>is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana,

0:17:24.160 --> 0:17:28.760
<v Speaker 2>supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people and students.

0:17:29.240 --> 0:17:31.800
<v Speaker 2>For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation

0:17:32.080 --> 0:17:36.000
<v Speaker 2>or the Last Mile program visit Pacersfoundation dot org or

0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:42.480
<v Speaker 2>the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG,

0:17:42.800 --> 0:17:46.840
<v Speaker 2>a leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton

0:17:46.920 --> 0:17:50.399
<v Speaker 2>and Garrison, a leading international law firm. The AIG pro

0:17:50.440 --> 0:17:54.080
<v Speaker 2>Bono Program provides free legal services and other support to

0:17:54.280 --> 0:17:58.960
<v Speaker 2>many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently

0:17:59.040 --> 0:18:01.800
<v Speaker 2>they announced that work to reform the criminal justice system

0:18:01.800 --> 0:18:04.760
<v Speaker 2>will become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul

0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:09.160
<v Speaker 2>Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful

0:18:09.200 --> 0:18:12.199
<v Speaker 2>pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of

0:18:12.200 --> 0:18:15.760
<v Speaker 2>our society and in support of the public interest, including

0:18:15.920 --> 0:18:25.159
<v Speaker 2>extensive work in the criminal justice area. You end up

0:18:25.160 --> 0:18:30.520
<v Speaker 2>getting sentenced to basically a life sentence. Yeah, forty five

0:18:30.600 --> 0:18:34.600
<v Speaker 2>years to life. And you were twenty four at the time. Yeah,

0:18:34.680 --> 0:18:36.680
<v Speaker 2>so forty five to life. And of course what I

0:18:36.760 --> 0:18:40.000
<v Speaker 2>five the life really means life because ultimately it'd be

0:18:40.040 --> 0:18:41.800
<v Speaker 2>sixty eight years old and they'd be asking you to

0:18:41.840 --> 0:18:42.359
<v Speaker 2>lead guilty.

0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.280
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, and the way to ad my sonos lined up

0:18:45.320 --> 0:18:48.720
<v Speaker 4>fifteen teen and twenty do to fifteen one, I do

0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:51.960
<v Speaker 4>to fifteen do to team finish the team do to twining.

0:18:52.400 --> 0:18:53.879
<v Speaker 5>It was consecutive sentences.

0:18:55.840 --> 0:18:58.400
<v Speaker 2>So how did you deal with this? I mean, you're

0:18:58.440 --> 0:19:02.200
<v Speaker 2>behind bars, convicted rapist, looking at spending your the rest

0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:04.960
<v Speaker 2>of your life there? How did you find the strength

0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:08.720
<v Speaker 2>to even continue on and ultimately contact and reach out

0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.639
<v Speaker 2>and get this incredible team behind you that led to

0:19:11.680 --> 0:19:14.720
<v Speaker 2>your exoneration and you know, vindication.

0:19:16.240 --> 0:19:19.119
<v Speaker 4>Mm. Well, my first ten year of priism, man, I

0:19:19.160 --> 0:19:22.240
<v Speaker 4>was stayed in the whole segregation of fault all the time,

0:19:22.920 --> 0:19:27.480
<v Speaker 4>in subordination because I felt like there was no hope,

0:19:28.400 --> 0:19:31.200
<v Speaker 4>so I might as well be part of the prism,

0:19:32.160 --> 0:19:36.280
<v Speaker 4>you know. And I met this guy after ten years.

0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.320
<v Speaker 4>He's sung gospel and he always went to church, and

0:19:39.359 --> 0:19:41.920
<v Speaker 4>he would always happen, you know, and he had more

0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:44.080
<v Speaker 4>time than that. He had a life sent and some time,

0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.040
<v Speaker 4>but he never showed it. He never showed it. And

0:19:48.000 --> 0:19:50.040
<v Speaker 4>I wanted to know why, you know why. It wasn't

0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:51.879
<v Speaker 4>about it, he said the church, Man, I seen in

0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:54.840
<v Speaker 4>the gospel. It makes me feel better. So I used

0:19:54.840 --> 0:19:56.720
<v Speaker 4>to go out and saying it first, because I really

0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:58.840
<v Speaker 4>didn't know any gospels, you know what I mean. But

0:19:59.160 --> 0:20:01.720
<v Speaker 4>once I got to going and listening to gospel, a

0:20:01.760 --> 0:20:04.960
<v Speaker 4>few gospel songs, and I started liking it when I

0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:09.160
<v Speaker 4>became part or choir for about five years, and that's

0:20:09.200 --> 0:20:11.680
<v Speaker 4>where a guy was in there. He had a booklet

0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:16.000
<v Speaker 4>concerning MCENT projects. So I got it and I started

0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:18.040
<v Speaker 4>writing him and told him that it was I had

0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:19.080
<v Speaker 4>some evidence.

0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.199
<v Speaker 2>Was this Georgia and is project or New York and.

0:20:21.160 --> 0:20:21.919
<v Speaker 3>Georgia and Georgia.

0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:24.880
<v Speaker 4>Yeah, And they got concerned to what kind of evidence

0:20:24.880 --> 0:20:27.520
<v Speaker 4>you had? So I was writing 'em and I told 'em,

0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:29.600
<v Speaker 4>and some way they got a hold of it. They

0:20:29.680 --> 0:20:32.560
<v Speaker 4>said they had destroyed it here and what eighty seven?

0:20:32.640 --> 0:20:33.879
<v Speaker 4>They said they destroyed all that.

0:20:34.000 --> 0:20:34.639
<v Speaker 3>But Cliff.

0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:37.520
<v Speaker 4>Some way, Cliff had talked to some at the GBI,

0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:39.720
<v Speaker 4>being some female, and she allowed him.

0:20:39.560 --> 0:20:44.960
<v Speaker 3>Back there and lo and behold, that was my uh evidence.

0:20:46.320 --> 0:20:49.919
<v Speaker 2>And the evidence at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation that

0:20:50.000 --> 0:20:53.600
<v Speaker 2>Pete is referring to is the real rapist DNA sample

0:20:53.640 --> 0:20:55.760
<v Speaker 2>from the rape kit, and they were finally able to

0:20:55.840 --> 0:20:58.480
<v Speaker 2>test it to not only exclude Pete, but they also

0:20:58.520 --> 0:21:00.919
<v Speaker 2>tested against the DNA of the man who had pleaded

0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:03.399
<v Speaker 2>guilty to those other rapes that had happened during the

0:21:03.480 --> 0:21:07.200
<v Speaker 2>same time period. A long roswell road and sure enough, Bengo,

0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:12.000
<v Speaker 2>it's him. But of course this incredible revelation did not

0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:16.760
<v Speaker 2>come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence

0:21:16.800 --> 0:21:20.040
<v Speaker 2>was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases

0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.720
<v Speaker 2>like these, And Drew, let's go back to you on this.

0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:26.479
<v Speaker 2>It's I mean, it's just nuts that we don't have

0:21:26.520 --> 0:21:31.840
<v Speaker 2>a nationwide standard for maintaining evidence. In fact, practices are

0:21:31.840 --> 0:21:34.960
<v Speaker 2>different all over. Some are good and some are, like,

0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.160
<v Speaker 2>let's face it, like a third world country.

0:21:37.680 --> 0:21:42.200
<v Speaker 5>There's really no national consistency. And so you know when

0:21:42.200 --> 0:21:45.000
<v Speaker 5>you say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we

0:21:45.080 --> 0:21:48.000
<v Speaker 5>probably have well over one hundred thousand innocent people in

0:21:48.320 --> 0:21:51.480
<v Speaker 5>our prison systems, and that's probably a low number. We

0:21:51.600 --> 0:21:56.440
<v Speaker 5>think about if we had consistency in the preservation of evidence,

0:21:56.520 --> 0:21:58.959
<v Speaker 5>what would we'd be able to do. It's really going

0:21:59.000 --> 0:22:02.240
<v Speaker 5>to require a coordinated effort. But it's the only right

0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:02.639
<v Speaker 5>thing to do.

0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:07.280
<v Speaker 2>There's just absolutely no argument against it. There's nothing bad

0:22:07.440 --> 0:22:08.680
<v Speaker 2>about preserving evidence.

0:22:08.960 --> 0:22:12.720
<v Speaker 5>Well, there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you

0:22:12.800 --> 0:22:15.960
<v Speaker 5>hear about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to

0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:19.960
<v Speaker 5>making on behalf of them and argued about just having

0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:24.200
<v Speaker 5>somebody's testing done and prosecutors objected to testing being done.

0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:27.080
<v Speaker 5>Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why

0:22:27.080 --> 0:22:31.240
<v Speaker 5>would you ever object to being able to check off

0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:34.119
<v Speaker 5>the list the possibility that somebody innocent is in jail

0:22:34.200 --> 0:22:36.600
<v Speaker 5>for many years, if not their life. And it's that

0:22:36.800 --> 0:22:41.120
<v Speaker 5>same type of flawed logic that would have some say, well,

0:22:41.160 --> 0:22:42.920
<v Speaker 5>we don't need to take up the room, We don't

0:22:42.920 --> 0:22:46.199
<v Speaker 5>need to do the logistics aren't there for storage. You

0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:48.600
<v Speaker 5>could just fathom the arguments that are coming, you know,

0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:51.879
<v Speaker 5>because prosecutors want to believe and law enforcement want to

0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:54.800
<v Speaker 5>believe that once they have a conviction, it's the right conviction,

0:22:55.160 --> 0:22:58.840
<v Speaker 5>and so you can always deal with that sentiment, which

0:22:58.880 --> 0:23:01.880
<v Speaker 5>is wrong. Yeah, that's the sentiment. It's the same sentiment

0:23:02.320 --> 0:23:05.639
<v Speaker 5>that dictates around the country when good folks are fighting

0:23:05.640 --> 0:23:08.359
<v Speaker 5>a behalf of the innocents project to have testing done

0:23:08.440 --> 0:23:11.639
<v Speaker 5>and they're in courtrooms at the podium facing prosecutors that

0:23:11.840 --> 0:23:13.600
<v Speaker 5>don't want testing to be done.

0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.720
<v Speaker 4>To me, why would you want to destroy ivernandek trio person.

0:23:20.160 --> 0:23:22.399
<v Speaker 2>And identify the actual perpetrator like it does.

0:23:22.480 --> 0:23:25.240
<v Speaker 3>I don't even know what to think of that. I

0:23:25.280 --> 0:23:26.639
<v Speaker 3>don't Thank.

0:23:26.400 --> 0:23:28.960
<v Speaker 2>God they hadn't actually destroyed the evidence from your case

0:23:29.000 --> 0:23:34.480
<v Speaker 2>because they actually exculpated you, and it ended up causing

0:23:34.520 --> 0:23:37.639
<v Speaker 2>you to be released from prison on January twenty third,

0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:42.679
<v Speaker 2>two thousand and seven. And subsequently it matched up to

0:23:42.920 --> 0:23:47.520
<v Speaker 2>Kenneth Wicker, who had already pleaded guilty all those years ago.

0:23:48.560 --> 0:23:51.800
<v Speaker 2>He was then arrested on February ninth, two thousand and

0:23:51.800 --> 0:23:56.880
<v Speaker 2>seven for the April fifth and tenth incidents. Then four

0:23:56.960 --> 0:23:59.879
<v Speaker 2>days later, you were granted a new trial on February

0:23:59.880 --> 0:24:04.760
<v Speaker 2>thith thirteenth, and the DA subsequently dropped all charges.

0:24:04.920 --> 0:24:08.160
<v Speaker 4>Dropped all the charge you know, they took the rape

0:24:08.160 --> 0:24:10.479
<v Speaker 4>and everything away from my report.

0:24:10.680 --> 0:24:12.120
<v Speaker 2>So you were in court when.

0:24:12.080 --> 0:24:14.080
<v Speaker 3>All the charges were actually dropped.

0:24:14.760 --> 0:24:15.520
<v Speaker 2>And what was that like?

0:24:15.640 --> 0:24:15.760
<v Speaker 3>How?

0:24:15.880 --> 0:24:17.760
<v Speaker 2>Who was there? A lot of family? Was it a

0:24:17.800 --> 0:24:18.760
<v Speaker 2>hot Yeah?

0:24:18.840 --> 0:24:21.960
<v Speaker 4>My family, My family there, and there was a lot

0:24:21.960 --> 0:24:23.919
<v Speaker 4>of people, you know, they was happy for me, you know,

0:24:24.040 --> 0:24:26.760
<v Speaker 4>even people I didn't know, you know, like even the

0:24:26.800 --> 0:24:29.520
<v Speaker 4>police is. And as a matter of fact, one of

0:24:29.560 --> 0:24:32.000
<v Speaker 4>the police that was used to take me back and forth,

0:24:32.080 --> 0:24:34.560
<v Speaker 4>the colt, and she came down and said, I always

0:24:34.640 --> 0:24:35.560
<v Speaker 4>knew you was innocent.

0:24:36.240 --> 0:24:37.359
<v Speaker 2>Wow, how'd that feel?

0:24:39.320 --> 0:24:41.040
<v Speaker 3>Wonderful man, wonderful.

0:24:41.960 --> 0:24:45.080
<v Speaker 2>And it's worth noting that in about fifty percent of

0:24:45.080 --> 0:24:49.800
<v Speaker 2>the instance project cases where DNA has has exculpated an

0:24:49.800 --> 0:24:52.040
<v Speaker 2>exonerate led to the exoneration of an innocent person. It

0:24:52.080 --> 0:24:56.240
<v Speaker 2>has also led to the identification of the guilty person.

0:24:56.400 --> 0:25:00.720
<v Speaker 2>That's absolutely right, and in those cases, of course, that

0:25:00.800 --> 0:25:05.800
<v Speaker 2>person has gone on to have committed other heinous crimes.

0:25:05.960 --> 0:25:06.600
<v Speaker 3>Yes, when you.

0:25:06.560 --> 0:25:08.399
<v Speaker 2>Lock up the wrong person, you stop looking for the

0:25:08.480 --> 0:25:11.879
<v Speaker 2>right person, and then that person that's out there is

0:25:12.200 --> 0:25:14.840
<v Speaker 2>most likely going to go and do what they did again.

0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:18.640
<v Speaker 2>It's just a practical issue of we should all want

0:25:18.760 --> 0:25:21.200
<v Speaker 2>to clean up these systems as best we can so

0:25:21.240 --> 0:25:23.920
<v Speaker 2>that ourselves and our families are safe.

0:25:24.760 --> 0:25:27.640
<v Speaker 5>I mean, well, you know, look, Jason, I think it's

0:25:27.800 --> 0:25:30.960
<v Speaker 5>it's symptomatic of a larger issue. It's a symptomatic of

0:25:31.440 --> 0:25:35.040
<v Speaker 5>our problem with mass incarceration of this country. I think

0:25:35.080 --> 0:25:40.040
<v Speaker 5>it's all that is really tied in. We don't as

0:25:40.080 --> 0:25:43.440
<v Speaker 5>defense attorneys and accuse citizens. You know, we don't control

0:25:43.520 --> 0:25:46.280
<v Speaker 5>the fact that, as you well know, we represent five

0:25:46.280 --> 0:25:48.960
<v Speaker 5>percent of the world's population, but closing in on twenty

0:25:48.960 --> 0:25:52.000
<v Speaker 5>five percent of the world's incarcerated population. We don't dictate that.

0:25:52.440 --> 0:25:54.080
<v Speaker 5>And I don't want this to be a session where

0:25:54.119 --> 0:25:58.200
<v Speaker 5>I'm kind of talking about prosecutors, but they control so much.

0:25:58.520 --> 0:26:01.520
<v Speaker 5>Pete's case is emblematic of the problem. You had a

0:26:01.560 --> 0:26:04.359
<v Speaker 5>prosecutor with an antisocial disorder that went on to be

0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:07.720
<v Speaker 5>involved in a murder himself, and as a twenty five

0:26:07.800 --> 0:26:11.080
<v Speaker 5>year old, fresh out of law school kid, I watched

0:26:11.080 --> 0:26:14.680
<v Speaker 5>what I thought was an unethical prosecution, and I watched

0:26:14.680 --> 0:26:18.040
<v Speaker 5>a man lose his freedom because to this prosecutor, it

0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:21.560
<v Speaker 5>was a game. It wasn't about justice, and that's why Peede,

0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:23.280
<v Speaker 5>I made a decision that I was going to spend

0:26:23.320 --> 0:26:25.520
<v Speaker 5>the rest of my life defending people because of your case.

0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:27.320
<v Speaker 5>It was just a job. At that point. I didn't

0:26:27.320 --> 0:26:29.400
<v Speaker 5>know anything about a public defender. I never even met

0:26:29.400 --> 0:26:31.679
<v Speaker 5>a lawyer until my first law school class. I have

0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:35.600
<v Speaker 5>humble beginnings, but your case dictated to me what I

0:26:35.600 --> 0:26:48.399
<v Speaker 5>wanted to spend the rest of my life doing. I

0:26:48.480 --> 0:26:51.520
<v Speaker 5>watched that prosecutor game the system. It was just a

0:26:51.560 --> 0:26:56.639
<v Speaker 5>game to him, and unfortunately, the power that being a

0:26:56.680 --> 0:27:02.760
<v Speaker 5>prosecutor brings is often results in misguided prosecutions because they

0:27:02.800 --> 0:27:05.920
<v Speaker 5>have the ability, if they handle ethically, to make sure

0:27:06.000 --> 0:27:08.200
<v Speaker 5>to the best of their ability, that just doesn't happen

0:27:08.520 --> 0:27:11.520
<v Speaker 5>to make sure that evidence is preserved, to make sure

0:27:11.640 --> 0:27:14.919
<v Speaker 5>that there is proper identification procedures, and they have the

0:27:15.000 --> 0:27:17.960
<v Speaker 5>ability to be that wall, that last wall of justice

0:27:17.960 --> 0:27:20.240
<v Speaker 5>to say, you know, I don't I don't need a

0:27:20.320 --> 0:27:24.000
<v Speaker 5>motion to suppress identification because as the prosecutor, I don't

0:27:24.040 --> 0:27:26.720
<v Speaker 5>like the way this went down. We talk so much

0:27:26.720 --> 0:27:29.879
<v Speaker 5>about ourselves as defense attorneys and what our job is,

0:27:30.200 --> 0:27:32.200
<v Speaker 5>but we need to be spending a lot of time

0:27:32.960 --> 0:27:36.199
<v Speaker 5>looking at the other side of the courtroom. And I

0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:38.640
<v Speaker 5>get that there's integrity units closing up, but it needs

0:27:38.680 --> 0:27:40.560
<v Speaker 5>to be a lot greater than that. It needs to

0:27:40.560 --> 0:27:42.440
<v Speaker 5>be a lot better than just every once in a

0:27:42.520 --> 0:27:45.720
<v Speaker 5>while a progressive prosecutor running for office. It needs to

0:27:45.760 --> 0:27:48.560
<v Speaker 5>be all over the country because he has the benefit

0:27:49.080 --> 0:27:52.399
<v Speaker 5>of this happening in Atlanta, But when we go to

0:27:52.560 --> 0:27:58.080
<v Speaker 5>the rural South, the smaller communities in Mississippi and Alabama

0:27:58.160 --> 0:28:02.600
<v Speaker 5>and Tennessee, sadly so a lot of Pete Williams that

0:28:02.680 --> 0:28:08.000
<v Speaker 5>are serving life sentences from prosecutors that were as misguided

0:28:08.400 --> 0:28:10.480
<v Speaker 5>and as corrupt as the one in his case.

0:28:10.640 --> 0:28:13.160
<v Speaker 2>And that's why it's so important for people to get

0:28:13.160 --> 0:28:16.400
<v Speaker 2>out and vote in prosecutor races because most people don't.

0:28:16.800 --> 0:28:19.000
<v Speaker 2>The number of people that vote in these races is

0:28:19.040 --> 0:28:21.200
<v Speaker 2>so small that if you don't think your vote makes

0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:23.679
<v Speaker 2>a difference, it does. I mean we've seen races that

0:28:23.760 --> 0:28:26.280
<v Speaker 2>ended up in a dead heat like Tiede. You know,

0:28:26.400 --> 0:28:29.040
<v Speaker 2>like your vote is important. And if your one of

0:28:29.040 --> 0:28:30.240
<v Speaker 2>these people think, oh, I'm not going to vote in

0:28:30.240 --> 0:28:32.240
<v Speaker 2>the psidential election, it doesn't matter. Yes it does. It

0:28:32.280 --> 0:28:34.600
<v Speaker 2>matters in the presidentialism, but it matters a lot more

0:28:35.119 --> 0:28:38.120
<v Speaker 2>in your local elections where your your DA is running

0:28:39.120 --> 0:28:43.480
<v Speaker 2>and you know, and electing a progressive prosecutor, which that's

0:28:43.480 --> 0:28:46.400
<v Speaker 2>not even the right word, a fair prosecutor could affect

0:28:46.440 --> 0:28:48.320
<v Speaker 2>your life as well, because this could happen to you,

0:28:48.320 --> 0:28:50.280
<v Speaker 2>It could happen to Pete, it could happen to anybody.

0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:51.920
<v Speaker 2>We see it over and over again on this show.

0:28:52.400 --> 0:28:54.400
<v Speaker 2>And then let's even talk about it from a purely

0:28:54.400 --> 0:28:57.200
<v Speaker 2>fiscal level, you know, for any conservatives that are listening,

0:28:57.440 --> 0:28:59.560
<v Speaker 2>When we think about the amount of money that the

0:28:59.640 --> 0:29:02.960
<v Speaker 2>tax of Georgia paid well upwards of a million dollars,

0:29:03.000 --> 0:29:05.560
<v Speaker 2>probably closer to two million dollars to keep Pete locked up,

0:29:06.240 --> 0:29:08.680
<v Speaker 2>and then any other income that he would have been

0:29:08.720 --> 0:29:12.120
<v Speaker 2>able to earn and pay taxes on and you know

0:29:12.280 --> 0:29:14.400
<v Speaker 2>all the rest of this stuff. That's a pretty big

0:29:14.440 --> 0:29:16.880
<v Speaker 2>thing too. I just learned the other day on a

0:29:16.920 --> 0:29:20.680
<v Speaker 2>tangential note, that we spend forty million dollars a day

0:29:20.680 --> 0:29:24.480
<v Speaker 2>in America on pre trial detention, right just because people

0:29:24.520 --> 0:29:28.000
<v Speaker 2>can't post bail. Forty million a day to lock people

0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:31.320
<v Speaker 2>up who haven't been convicted of anything. That's a day.

0:29:31.640 --> 0:29:34.200
<v Speaker 2>That's your tax dollars at work and mine, by the way,

0:29:34.480 --> 0:29:37.560
<v Speaker 2>and whoever's listening, it's nuts. I mean, we lock up

0:29:37.560 --> 0:29:39.800
<v Speaker 2>more people than Russia and China combined. Back to your

0:29:39.840 --> 0:29:42.640
<v Speaker 2>previous point, we locked black people up at six times

0:29:42.640 --> 0:29:44.719
<v Speaker 2>the rate of South Africa at the height of apartheid.

0:29:45.120 --> 0:29:49.120
<v Speaker 2>And if you're a woman listening, then you should just

0:29:49.280 --> 0:29:52.320
<v Speaker 2>process this for a second, because while you know what

0:29:52.440 --> 0:29:55.880
<v Speaker 2>Drew said is certainly scary and true about us having

0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:58.000
<v Speaker 2>twenty five percent of the world's prison population, we have

0:29:58.040 --> 0:30:01.600
<v Speaker 2>thirty three percent of the world's female prison population. That

0:30:01.880 --> 0:30:04.120
<v Speaker 2>means one out of every three women in prison in

0:30:04.160 --> 0:30:07.040
<v Speaker 2>the world is in America, which is such a small

0:30:07.040 --> 0:30:09.920
<v Speaker 2>country when you look at the vast world that's out there,

0:30:10.040 --> 0:30:11.800
<v Speaker 2>and the more we can do to get out there

0:30:12.000 --> 0:30:13.520
<v Speaker 2>and spread the message. And the more you do to

0:30:13.520 --> 0:30:16.520
<v Speaker 2>get out there and vote and get active and volunteer,

0:30:16.600 --> 0:30:20.160
<v Speaker 2>go to Georgia Innis's project a website, you know, learn more.

0:30:20.520 --> 0:30:25.040
<v Speaker 2>Contact NACDL. What is it, NACDL dot org exactly, NACDL

0:30:25.080 --> 0:30:27.960
<v Speaker 2>dot org. That's National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers dot org.

0:30:28.240 --> 0:30:30.600
<v Speaker 5>So I'm glad you brought up kind of where people

0:30:30.640 --> 0:30:34.120
<v Speaker 5>fall on the political continuum. You should know that the

0:30:34.200 --> 0:30:36.280
<v Speaker 5>term just finished and there's a new governor here. But

0:30:36.360 --> 0:30:40.200
<v Speaker 5>our last governor, Nathan dial As a Republican, two term Republican,

0:30:40.360 --> 0:30:43.680
<v Speaker 5>and the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers gave him

0:30:43.680 --> 0:30:46.000
<v Speaker 5>a Champion I gave him a Champion of Justice Award

0:30:46.080 --> 0:30:48.680
<v Speaker 5>for his work on criminal justice reform. And so you

0:30:48.760 --> 0:30:51.200
<v Speaker 5>hit on it. No matter where you are, left wing,

0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:54.560
<v Speaker 5>right wing, no wing, we are any period of time

0:30:54.720 --> 0:30:58.920
<v Speaker 5>right now where people are really focusing on criminal justice reform.

0:30:59.280 --> 0:31:01.640
<v Speaker 5>And I think that you bring up all the numbers,

0:31:01.880 --> 0:31:06.040
<v Speaker 5>they're startling and it can impact anybody, you know, whether

0:31:06.080 --> 0:31:08.680
<v Speaker 5>it's the fact that our prison systems are warehousing the

0:31:08.720 --> 0:31:13.120
<v Speaker 5>mentally ill an adult autistic population. There's so many things

0:31:13.440 --> 0:31:17.920
<v Speaker 5>that attract people. The National Association of Criminal Defense lawyers.

0:31:18.560 --> 0:31:21.520
<v Speaker 5>As you know, we have our foundation for criminal justice

0:31:21.800 --> 0:31:24.959
<v Speaker 5>and we really embrace non lawyers to be part of it.

0:31:25.400 --> 0:31:28.120
<v Speaker 5>Our long term goal is to get non lawyers into

0:31:28.120 --> 0:31:31.800
<v Speaker 5>our leadership track. Let them be trustees. We need people

0:31:31.800 --> 0:31:34.440
<v Speaker 5>to reach out to us. We just want everyday citizens

0:31:34.480 --> 0:31:37.920
<v Speaker 5>to be involved, come to our meetings, and Jason's right,

0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:42.360
<v Speaker 5>there may not be an election that may impact your

0:31:42.360 --> 0:31:45.480
<v Speaker 5>life more than who your local district attorney is. Have

0:31:45.600 --> 0:31:49.120
<v Speaker 5>them answer to your questions. Folks need to take these

0:31:49.160 --> 0:31:52.720
<v Speaker 5>stories to heart, and which is why this podcast is

0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:56.240
<v Speaker 5>so important. They need to understand that not everybody is

0:31:56.280 --> 0:31:58.959
<v Speaker 5>going to be blessed with the opportunity to connect up

0:31:59.000 --> 0:32:02.000
<v Speaker 5>with the Innocence Project. So listen to podcasts like this

0:32:02.120 --> 0:32:04.160
<v Speaker 5>and get involved the most you can.

0:32:05.680 --> 0:32:09.120
<v Speaker 2>And that is once again an ACDL dot org National

0:32:09.120 --> 0:32:13.160
<v Speaker 2>Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. Now we have this tradition

0:32:13.680 --> 0:32:17.120
<v Speaker 2>at Wrongful Conviction, which is my favorite part of the show,

0:32:17.680 --> 0:32:20.200
<v Speaker 2>which is where I get to just sit back and

0:32:20.320 --> 0:32:24.280
<v Speaker 2>listen and I leave the microphones on for you guys

0:32:25.120 --> 0:32:28.760
<v Speaker 2>for any closing thoughts that you want to share. And

0:32:29.000 --> 0:32:33.000
<v Speaker 2>because Pete is the honored guest here, not that you're not,

0:32:33.160 --> 0:32:35.160
<v Speaker 2>but you know, he's the star of the show. I'm

0:32:35.200 --> 0:32:38.520
<v Speaker 2>going to let him go last, and so drew any

0:32:38.920 --> 0:32:39.720
<v Speaker 2>parting shots.

0:32:40.760 --> 0:32:45.360
<v Speaker 5>Pete. I just want to wish you the best and

0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:48.680
<v Speaker 5>let you know that the tragedy that occurred to you

0:32:49.600 --> 0:32:54.160
<v Speaker 5>influence the course of my existence. So my family, all

0:32:54.240 --> 0:32:56.600
<v Speaker 5>my clients, I want to hug you.

0:33:02.600 --> 0:33:03.200
<v Speaker 2>Pete.

0:33:04.280 --> 0:33:04.960
<v Speaker 3>Oh.

0:33:05.480 --> 0:33:09.080
<v Speaker 4>I'm glad y'all had it broadcast to let people know

0:33:09.160 --> 0:33:12.200
<v Speaker 4>that things like that actually happen. People do go to

0:33:12.280 --> 0:33:16.160
<v Speaker 4>jail wrong for their convicted, and I'm just glad you

0:33:16.320 --> 0:33:20.080
<v Speaker 4>all been a publan note that these things actually happen.

0:33:26.720 --> 0:33:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

0:33:29.360 --> 0:33:31.760
<v Speaker 2>to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

0:33:31.800 --> 0:33:34.760
<v Speaker 2>week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

0:33:34.840 --> 0:33:37.640
<v Speaker 2>Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

0:33:37.680 --> 0:33:40.800
<v Speaker 2>production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

0:33:40.800 --> 0:33:44.680
<v Speaker 2>my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clibern.

0:33:44.760 --> 0:33:46.840
<v Speaker 2>The music in this production was supplied by three time

0:33:46.920 --> 0:33:50.000
<v Speaker 2>OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

0:33:50.000 --> 0:33:53.040
<v Speaker 2>across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

0:33:53.120 --> 0:33:56.120
<v Speaker 2>at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

0:33:56.120 --> 0:33:59.000
<v Speaker 2>at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

0:33:59.080 --> 0:34:02.680
<v Speaker 2>Lava for Good podcast and association with Signal Company Number One.

0:34:02.840 --> 0:34:05.240
<v Speaker 5>We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

0:34:05.280 --> 0:34:08.080
<v Speaker 5>in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed

0:34:08.080 --> 0:34:10.439
<v Speaker 5>by the individuals featured in this show are their own

0:34:10.520 --> 0:34:13.000
<v Speaker 5>and do not necessarily reflect those of love of for

0:34:13.080 --> 0:34:13.319
<v Speaker 5>Good