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Speaker 1: Hey everyone, it's Ben Bollen again from the podcast Stuff

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Speaker 1: They Don't Want You to Know, and I'm back to

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Speaker 1: introduce another one of my favorite episodes of Wrongful Conviction. However,

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Speaker 1: before we do that, I'm here to tell you that

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Speaker 1: coming up next week, there are some truly exciting things

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Speaker 1: on the way from the Lava for Good team and myself,

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Speaker 1: so be sure to tune in for that now. This

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Speaker 1: week's release is another one that hits close to home

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Speaker 1: for me. This is a story about a serial rapist

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Speaker 1: that was perpetrating his crimes along a stretch of road

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Speaker 1: that runs through Atlanta into a separate jurisdiction just north

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Speaker 1: of the city, where only one of the police departments

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Speaker 1: got it right and the other well. Their district attorney

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Speaker 1: went to prison himself, so without any further ado, the

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Speaker 1: wrongful conviction of Willie Pete Williams.

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Speaker 2: This episode was recorded pre COVID at the Atlanta Innocence

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Speaker 2: Network conference in twenty nineteen. On April fifth, nineteen eighty five,

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Speaker 2: a woman was exiting her car at a parking lot

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Speaker 2: just north of Atlanta when a man approached, asking about

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Speaker 2: a woman named Carol. When he got close enough, he

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Speaker 2: pulled a gun, forced her into the passenger seat, drove

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Speaker 2: to a dead end, and proceeded to rape her. After

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Speaker 2: the attack, the victim went to the hospital for a

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Speaker 2: rape kit. With a well lit parking lot and over

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Speaker 2: forty five minutes with her attacker, she was able to

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Speaker 2: put together a composite sketch. On April tenth, a near

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Speaker 2: identical incident occurred along the same stretch of road. A

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Speaker 2: man approached a woman in a parking lot asking for

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Speaker 2: carol before using a threat of violence to get her

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Speaker 2: back into the car. However, this time the victim was

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Speaker 2: able to talk the attacker into leaving.

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Speaker 3: Before a rape occurred.

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Speaker 2: The police showed this would be victim the composite sketch,

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Speaker 2: and it appeared there was a serial rapist operating in

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Speaker 2: the North Atlanta area. Then, on April twenty eighth, Willie

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Speaker 2: Pete Williams, along with two of his friends, were stopped

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Speaker 2: by police for suspicious behavior in the area of the attacks.

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Speaker 2: Police noticed that Pete resembled the sketch and came up

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Speaker 2: with a reason to arrest him, saying that he gave

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Speaker 2: them false information in order to bring him in to

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Speaker 2: be photographed. His photo was shown to both women for

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Speaker 2: a positive ID. While Pete was locked up, three more

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Speaker 2: attacks would occur with the same mom, but it was

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Speaker 2: already too late. Pete Williams spent nearly twenty two years

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Speaker 2: in prison before DNA testing proved that another man was

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Speaker 2: responsible for all five attacks. This is Wrongful Conviction with

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Speaker 2: Jason Plumm. You're listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

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Speaker 2: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

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Speaker 2: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

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Speaker 2: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction.

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Speaker 2: This episode is going to be a very unique one.

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Speaker 2: We have with us Pete Williams, who served twenty two

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Speaker 2: years in Georgia prisons for a rape he did not commit.

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Speaker 2: Two rapes, actually they did not commit. And with him

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Speaker 2: is Drew Finling, who is a how can I say,

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Speaker 2: enigmatic character, famous for his work representing some of the

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Speaker 2: top hip hop artis in the world, and he's also

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Speaker 2: now the president of the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers.

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Speaker 2: He got involved in criminal defense work because of Pete's case,

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Speaker 2: but they never met it till today. Correct, So this

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Speaker 2: is going to be a fun ride and I'm excited

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Speaker 2: to be honest. So Pete, welcome, and the same to you, Drew. Absolutely,

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Speaker 2: And like I always say, Pete, I'm sorry you're here,

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Speaker 2: but I'm glad you're here. And I want to tell

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Speaker 2: your story because I think it's an important story for

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Speaker 2: a lot of reasons. I guess at the heart of

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Speaker 2: it is a mistaken witness identification more than one actually,

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Speaker 2: and it's a really important thing for us to talk

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Speaker 2: about because it's so common. But can you take us

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Speaker 2: back to I mean, this is a long time ago, right,

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Speaker 2: because you were exonerating in two thousand and seven, yes,

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Speaker 2: but the help of the Innocence Project. So this crime

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Speaker 2: goes all the way back to the mid eighties.

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Speaker 3: Right, yeah, eighty five?

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Speaker 2: And what were you up to back then? What was

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Speaker 2: your life like? What was going on in Pete's world?

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Speaker 4: Most An was working, I had dropped out of school,

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Speaker 4: really didn't have much going on other than freedom.

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Speaker 2: How old were you?

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Speaker 3: I just had twenty three.

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Speaker 2: So you're twenty three. You got charged with originally one.

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Speaker 3: Rape, right, yeah, one way right at the time.

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Speaker 2: And let's talk about this awful rape which occurred on

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Speaker 2: April fifth, nineteen eighty five, which is when a woman

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Speaker 2: arrived at her apartment complex parking lot along Roswell Road,

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Speaker 2: just north of Atlanta, got out, but she got out,

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Speaker 2: a man approached, pretending that he was looking for someone,

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Speaker 2: but when he got close, he pulled a gun and

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Speaker 2: forced her back into the car, then drove her at

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Speaker 2: gunpoint to a dead end street where he raped her.

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Speaker 2: Then he drove her back to her apartment complex, and

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Speaker 2: then he left on foot. So the victim then went

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Speaker 2: to the police and the hospital for a rape kit,

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Speaker 2: which means there was a sample of the rapist DNA,

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Speaker 2: And that becomes important later because after all, there was

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Speaker 2: no DNA testing back in nineteen eighty five anyway, So

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Speaker 2: later on though, we're going to get to that. So

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Speaker 2: by now, the victim had spent a considerable amount of

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Speaker 2: time with her attacker, and as a result, she was

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Speaker 2: able to help the police put together a composite sketch.

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Speaker 2: And this attacker had a particular mo too. Can you

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Speaker 2: talk about that, Drew.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, So what had happened is Roswell Road is a

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Speaker 5: very long stretch of road in Atlanta. I want to

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Speaker 5: say it goes north and south, but I'm terrible with

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Speaker 5: things like that. But the real rapist was trolling up

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Speaker 5: and down and he would go to women and I

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Speaker 5: think they would kind of be in their twenties and

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Speaker 5: they would like blonde hair and blonde hair. And he

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Speaker 5: would say the same like have you seen and I

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Speaker 5: used to know the name Carol, Carol? Yeah, have you

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Speaker 5: seen Carol? And then he'd take him in the car.

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Speaker 2: Right. So, five days after the first rape, on April tenth,

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Speaker 2: nearly the same thing occurred along Roswell Road, although this

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Speaker 2: ended up being an attempted rape, but still the same, Hey,

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Speaker 2: do you know Carol or where's Carol? Accept his second

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Speaker 2: victim when he tried to get her to take off

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Speaker 2: her clothes. I don't know how, but she was able

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Speaker 2: to talk him out of raping her. She went to

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Speaker 2: the police. They hear this similar MO from just five

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Speaker 2: days before, and they show her the composite sketch and

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Speaker 2: she agreed that this sketch resembled her would be rapist. So, Pete,

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Speaker 2: you've got nothing to do with this. You had nothing

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Speaker 2: to do this, but you lived in the area, So

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Speaker 2: can you tell us how you were dragged into this?

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Speaker 2: When you and two friends got pulled over on Roswell

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Speaker 2: Road one night.

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Speaker 3: I was riding out right on Roswell and it was

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Speaker 3: stopping my car. It was stopped.

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Speaker 4: I was passing on the car, So it was a

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Speaker 4: compositive skates going around in that area. So the way

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Speaker 4: that they arrested me, they told that I gave them

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Speaker 4: false information. That's just to get me there and get

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Speaker 4: my photograph, my picture to show the witness because I

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Speaker 4: gave them information while I was staying everything adequate.

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Speaker 2: Oh, you gave them accurate information.

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Speaker 4: Yes, of course, yeah, And they said yeah, they said

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Speaker 4: it was false. So you know, I couldn't all get

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Speaker 4: the police. So you're stop by the police.

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Speaker 2: They have this composite sketch in the back of their

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Speaker 2: minds and they come up with a reason. They said

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Speaker 2: that you gave them false information, which wasn't true, but

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Speaker 2: they wanted an excuse to get your photograph to share

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Speaker 2: with these two women because they thought that you looked

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Speaker 2: enough like the sketch, so they arrested you.

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Speaker 3: Then what I was there for a while.

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Speaker 4: Wait, I was there maybe about four or five hours,

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Speaker 4: but it was a relative cheap.

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Speaker 3: Bomb, you know.

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Speaker 4: So I was born out maybe three to four hours

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Speaker 4: after I was arrested, and two weeks later I was

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Speaker 4: truble was rape, accuvate uselt and accovate us solomy, and

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Speaker 4: I was arrested and.

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Speaker 3: I didn't know what they was talking about.

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Speaker 2: Had you even heard about these?

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Speaker 3: I didn't have the slightest idea.

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Speaker 4: They said it was from POSSI circuling of rape was

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Speaker 4: out in that area, and I resembled it.

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Speaker 2: Now did that sketch actually resemble you? Yeah, it actually did, right,

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Speaker 2: So so you resembled the sketch.

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Speaker 3: So that was dead.

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Speaker 4: I didn't, you know, I didn't. I haven't raped anybody.

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Speaker 4: I just resembled it on positive sketch.

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Speaker 2: The sketch resembled you. And then I'm presuming you were

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Speaker 2: identified as well in the lineup on court.

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Speaker 4: Oh, it was a lineup, and I was identified doing

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Speaker 4: the trial as well.

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Speaker 2: I mean, we know that I witness misidentification is the

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Speaker 2: leading cause of runful convictions.

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Speaker 5: And look, I'm just not the biggest believer in the

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Speaker 5: composite sketch because the composite sketch becomes the perpetrator, not

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Speaker 5: the perpetrator, and so it just happened to have favored him.

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Speaker 5: And then it's the composite sketch and anybody that looks

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Speaker 5: like them that replaces who the actual perpetrator is. So

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Speaker 5: I'm just not a believer in the whole composite sketch thing.

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Speaker 5: I just don't like where they lead, as in convictions

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Speaker 5: of innocent people in cases like this.

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Speaker 2: So the charges were rape, aggravated assault, and aggravated sod

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Speaker 2: of me and true this is where you first entered

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Speaker 2: the picture. He became aware of Pete's case, and this

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Speaker 2: is at his trial where you were just a young

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Speaker 2: man just out of law school pretty much right at.

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Speaker 5: The time, I was twenty five years old. I was

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Speaker 5: fresh out of law school, and I was an assistant

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Speaker 5: public defender assigned to mister William's courtroom where his case

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Speaker 5: took place. And I made it my practice then that

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Speaker 5: was just watch every case I could. I got it

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Speaker 5: up and I loved my job as a public defender,

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Speaker 5: and I just had him to watch his case and

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Speaker 5: then really started learning about it, and I watched the trial.

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Speaker 5: So what had happened is Roswell Road is a very

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Speaker 5: long stretch of road in Atlanta, but at some point

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Speaker 5: along the road it is the city of Atlanta, and

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Speaker 5: then it's no longer the city of Atlanta. Well, the

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Speaker 5: real rapist because it wasn't mister Williams. Anybody that watched

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Speaker 5: the trial would realize that because I watched the trial

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Speaker 5: and I'll talk about that later, and it was obvious

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Speaker 5: he was innocent. So, Jason, here's the crazy thing. One

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Speaker 5: jurisdiction handling it was City of Atlanta police. On the

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Speaker 5: other part of the road was Fulton County police. To

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Speaker 5: this day, I don't know if anybody's looked into did

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Speaker 5: they ever talk to one another? And in fact, if

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Speaker 5: you remember, on the City of Atlanta side, the City

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Speaker 5: of Atlanta police called the person the Roswell Road rapist.

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Speaker 5: But yet on the other side of the sign was

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Speaker 5: this case involving mister Williams. And I've apparently he got

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Speaker 5: arrested and then eventually they arrested the other guy who

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Speaker 5: I think pled out. Your case was on the ninth floor,

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Speaker 5: His case was on the seventh floor. Was on the seven, Yeah,

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Speaker 5: he was on seventh, on the eighth You're right, yeah,

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Speaker 5: And he pled out during his trial and I went

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Speaker 5: and watched his also, because the Public Defender's office did

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Speaker 5: that case.

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Speaker 2: Wait, how far apart were the two difference?

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Speaker 5: I can't remember the dates they weren't too far apart.

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Speaker 5: But I watched his and I read up on his

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Speaker 5: and I was like, well, this guy did it, and

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Speaker 5: it was astonishing, And.

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Speaker 2: Let's go back to the pattern, right, because for whatever reason,

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Speaker 2: the attacker always did the same damn thing. Maybe he

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Speaker 2: thought that this was an effective way of him grabbing

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Speaker 2: these women, was by asking about this other woman, Carol

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Speaker 2: or Carolyn. Why he was fixating on that, Yeah, but

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Speaker 2: that was his thing. And he also had this car

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Speaker 2: that broke down a lot because a number of the

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Speaker 2: women and reported that. And what's crazy is that after

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Speaker 2: Pete was arrested, and three more attacks happened with the

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Speaker 2: same damn mL right, with exactly the same pattern, the

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Speaker 2: exact same pattern. And in fact, this man was responsible

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Speaker 2: clearly for all five attacks, but he only face charges

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Speaker 2: related to those three, And so the other two attacks

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Speaker 2: repined on you Pete and this other guy, Kenneth Wicker.

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Speaker 2: He finally got caught because his last victim heroically was

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Speaker 2: able to take down her attacker's license plate number. And

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Speaker 2: it turned out that Wicker lived right along Roswell Road

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Speaker 2: where all of these attacks were taking place, So it

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Speaker 2: would seem obvious to the casual observer that the DA

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Speaker 2: would hear about these other cases and this other arrest

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Speaker 2: and immediately stopped focusing on you, Pete. But that's not

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Speaker 2: what happened. And later all of this was brought up

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Speaker 2: in Europe, and I'm talking as early as nineteen eighty six,

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Speaker 2: but the DA just didn't fucking care about it then

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Speaker 2: or while he was prosecuting you in the first place.

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Speaker 5: Sir Jason, Pete and I we just met downstairs and

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Speaker 5: we immediately engaged in a conversation about what I'm about

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Speaker 5: to bring up which has bothered him to this day,

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Speaker 5: and I'm going to tell it to you. And that

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Speaker 5: is our system, right relies on ethical prosecutors. Unfortunately, for

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Speaker 5: Pete Williams, his prosecutor turned out to be not so ethical,

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Speaker 5: as we know from several things, including the fact that

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Speaker 5: he's serving a life sentence in his own murder case

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Speaker 5: right now.

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Speaker 2: The prosecutor.

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Speaker 5: The prosecutor, oh blot twist, yes, I mean yeah, and

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Speaker 5: was also eventually charged not only with that murder, which

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Speaker 5: he was found guilty of, but being the lawyer for

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Speaker 5: a drug operation when he was in private practice. So

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Speaker 5: not the best guy in the world. And I bring

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Speaker 5: that up only because you would fathom that a decent,

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Speaker 5: ethical prosecutor, which there are many of out there, would

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Speaker 5: have realized this having been the lead prosecutor mister Williams case,

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Speaker 5: and said, uh, oh, we got problems. And that never happened.

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Speaker 5: He never had the ethics of a prosecutor that realized

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Speaker 5: what you just said and wanted to put an end

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Speaker 5: to his illegal incarceration. It just didn't happen, and there

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Speaker 5: was a real breakdown.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm still trying to process this. This is a story.

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Speaker 2: I've heard a lot of stories and you know, doing

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Speaker 2: this since the early nineties.

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Speaker 5: The irony is Pete said to me outside we agreed.

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Speaker 5: How come that didn't become the biggest part of the

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Speaker 5: story of Pete Williams's illegal conviction and incarceration. As he said,

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Speaker 5: I was serving my sentence and my prosecutor was hearting

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Speaker 5: his sentence at the exact same time.

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Speaker 2: Oh so he went to prison while you were in this.

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Speaker 2: Well this is not the same.

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Speaker 4: Prison, not the same prison, but he went doing mind cusurrection.

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Speaker 2: Did you know that at the time?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I probably it.

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Speaker 5: Is on Tell me Jason was one of the biggest

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Speaker 5: cases in the history of Atlanta. Yeah, yeah, I can't

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Speaker 5: even think in my thirty plus years of practice of

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Speaker 5: a federal case that they changed venue. It was such

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Speaker 5: a big case. But they actually had to change venue

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Speaker 5: to Birmingham in his federal case, his murder case, they

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Speaker 5: changed venue as well, and did it somewhere in the woods.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, rural Georgia, somewhere, but they actually moved

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Speaker 5: his federal case to Birmingham because they just couldn't get

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Speaker 5: a jury in Atlanta. Fred Tokars is his name. It

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Speaker 5: was one of the biggest cases in the history of Atlanta.

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Speaker 2: So I took a second to look up Fred Tokars

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Speaker 2: and what I found out was batshit crazy, crazier than

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Speaker 2: what Pete and Drew had said. This Georgia prosecutor went

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Speaker 2: on to become a private attorney to some big time

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Speaker 2: drug dealers, but besides representing them, he was also helping

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Speaker 2: them hide their money in nightclubs, and eventually his wife, Sarah,

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Speaker 2: threatened to blow the whistle on his illegal and the

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Speaker 2: various activities, but instead of turning his life around, he

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Speaker 2: plotted to have her kidnapped and killed in front of

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Speaker 2: their four and six year old boys. Ricky and Mike.

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Speaker 2: I mean, what the actual buck. He was convicted of

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Speaker 2: racketeering in nineteen ninety four and eventually also convicted for

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Speaker 2: Sarah's murder, receiving a life sentence without the possibility of parole.

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Speaker 2: He was held in secret custody as a marked man,

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Speaker 2: and since this interview is recorded, despite his more treacherous

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Speaker 2: than usual situation in prison, Fred Tokers died in May

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Speaker 2: of twenty twenty in a Pennsylvania prison hospital due to

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Speaker 2: complications related to a neurological disorder.

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Speaker 5: And that was the prosecutor that put mister Williams away.

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Speaker 2: So, I mean, it's just an unbelievable twist of fate,

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Speaker 2: right that the guy who was responsible for ruining your

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Speaker 2: life ends up in May. The Pacers Foundation is a

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Speaker 2: proud supporter of this episode and of the Last Mile organization,

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Speaker 2: which provides business and tech training to help incarcerated individuals

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00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:20,600
Speaker 2: successfully and permanently re enter the workforce. The Pacers Foundation

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00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:24,040
Speaker 2: is committed to improving the lives of Hoosiers across Indiana,

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00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:28,760
Speaker 2: supporting organizations dedicated primarily to helping young people and students.

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Speaker 2: For more information on the work of the Pacers Foundation

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Speaker 2: or the Last Mile program visit Pacersfoundation dot org or

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Speaker 2: the Lastmile dot org. This episode is sponsored by AIG,

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Speaker 2: a leading global insurance company, and Paul Weiss Rifkin, Wharton

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Speaker 2: and Garrison, a leading international law firm. The AIG pro

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Speaker 2: Bono Program provides free legal services and other support to

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Speaker 2: many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need, and recently

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Speaker 2: they announced that work to reform the criminal justice system

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Speaker 2: will become a key pillar of the program's mission. Paul

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Speaker 2: Weiss has long had an unwavering commitment to providing impactful

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Speaker 2: pro bono legal assistance to the most vulnerable members of

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Speaker 2: our society and in support of the public interest, including

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Speaker 2: extensive work in the criminal justice area. You end up

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Speaker 2: getting sentenced to basically a life sentence. Yeah, forty five

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Speaker 2: years to life. And you were twenty four at the time. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: so forty five to life. And of course what I

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Speaker 2: five the life really means life because ultimately it'd be

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Speaker 2: sixty eight years old and they'd be asking you to

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Speaker 2: lead guilty.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and the way to ad my sonos lined up

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Speaker 4: fifteen teen and twenty do to fifteen one, I do

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Speaker 4: to fifteen do to team finish the team do to twining.

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Speaker 5: It was consecutive sentences.

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Speaker 2: So how did you deal with this? I mean, you're

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Speaker 2: behind bars, convicted rapist, looking at spending your the rest

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Speaker 2: of your life there? How did you find the strength

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Speaker 2: to even continue on and ultimately contact and reach out

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Speaker 2: and get this incredible team behind you that led to

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Speaker 2: your exoneration and you know, vindication.

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Speaker 4: Mm. Well, my first ten year of priism, man, I

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Speaker 4: was stayed in the whole segregation of fault all the time,

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Speaker 4: in subordination because I felt like there was no hope,

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Speaker 4: so I might as well be part of the prism,

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Speaker 4: you know. And I met this guy after ten years.

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Speaker 4: He's sung gospel and he always went to church, and

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Speaker 4: he would always happen, you know, and he had more

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Speaker 4: time than that. He had a life sent and some time,

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Speaker 4: but he never showed it. He never showed it. And

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Speaker 4: I wanted to know why, you know why. It wasn't

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Speaker 4: about it, he said the church, Man, I seen in

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Speaker 4: the gospel. It makes me feel better. So I used

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Speaker 4: to go out and saying it first, because I really

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Speaker 4: didn't know any gospels, you know what I mean. But

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Speaker 4: once I got to going and listening to gospel, a

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Speaker 4: few gospel songs, and I started liking it when I

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Speaker 4: became part or choir for about five years, and that's

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Speaker 4: where a guy was in there. He had a booklet

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Speaker 4: concerning MCENT projects. So I got it and I started

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Speaker 4: writing him and told him that it was I had

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Speaker 4: some evidence.

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Speaker 2: Was this Georgia and is project or New York and.

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Speaker 3: Georgia and Georgia.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And they got concerned to what kind of evidence

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Speaker 4: you had? So I was writing 'em and I told 'em,

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Speaker 4: and some way they got a hold of it. They

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Speaker 4: said they had destroyed it here and what eighty seven?

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Speaker 4: They said they destroyed all that.

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Speaker 3: But Cliff.

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Speaker 4: Some way, Cliff had talked to some at the GBI,

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Speaker 4: being some female, and she allowed him.

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Speaker 3: Back there and lo and behold, that was my uh evidence.

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Speaker 2: And the evidence at the Georgia Bureau of Investigation that

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Speaker 2: Pete is referring to is the real rapist DNA sample

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Speaker 2: from the rape kit, and they were finally able to

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Speaker 2: test it to not only exclude Pete, but they also

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Speaker 2: tested against the DNA of the man who had pleaded

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Speaker 2: guilty to those other rapes that had happened during the

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Speaker 2: same time period. A long roswell road and sure enough, Bengo,

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Speaker 2: it's him. But of course this incredible revelation did not

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Speaker 2: come without roadblocks and even being told that the evidence

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Speaker 2: was destroyed, which we hear a lot when fighting cases

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Speaker 2: like these, And Drew, let's go back to you on this.

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Speaker 2: It's I mean, it's just nuts that we don't have

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Speaker 2: a nationwide standard for maintaining evidence. In fact, practices are

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Speaker 2: different all over. Some are good and some are, like,

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Speaker 2: let's face it, like a third world country.

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Speaker 5: There's really no national consistency. And so you know when

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Speaker 5: you say earlier, which I completely agree with, that we

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Speaker 5: probably have well over one hundred thousand innocent people in

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Speaker 5: our prison systems, and that's probably a low number. We

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Speaker 5: think about if we had consistency in the preservation of evidence,

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Speaker 5: what would we'd be able to do. It's really going

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Speaker 5: to require a coordinated effort. But it's the only right

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Speaker 5: thing to do.

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Speaker 2: There's just absolutely no argument against it. There's nothing bad

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Speaker 2: about preserving evidence.

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Speaker 5: Well, there's nothing bad about preserving evidence. But then you

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Speaker 5: hear about the Georgia Innocence Project. I went down to

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Speaker 5: making on behalf of them and argued about just having

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Speaker 5: somebody's testing done and prosecutors objected to testing being done.

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Speaker 5: Why would you ever object to testing being done? Why

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Speaker 5: would you ever object to being able to check off

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Speaker 5: the list the possibility that somebody innocent is in jail

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Speaker 5: for many years, if not their life. And it's that

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Speaker 5: same type of flawed logic that would have some say, well,

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Speaker 5: we don't need to take up the room, We don't

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Speaker 5: need to do the logistics aren't there for storage. You

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Speaker 5: could just fathom the arguments that are coming, you know,

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Speaker 5: because prosecutors want to believe and law enforcement want to

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Speaker 5: believe that once they have a conviction, it's the right conviction,

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Speaker 5: and so you can always deal with that sentiment, which

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Speaker 5: is wrong. Yeah, that's the sentiment. It's the same sentiment

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Speaker 5: that dictates around the country when good folks are fighting

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Speaker 5: a behalf of the innocents project to have testing done

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Speaker 5: and they're in courtrooms at the podium facing prosecutors that

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Speaker 5: don't want testing to be done.

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Speaker 4: To me, why would you want to destroy ivernandek trio person.

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Speaker 2: And identify the actual perpetrator like it does.

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Speaker 3: I don't even know what to think of that. I

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Speaker 3: don't Thank.

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Speaker 2: God they hadn't actually destroyed the evidence from your case

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Speaker 2: because they actually exculpated you, and it ended up causing

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Speaker 2: you to be released from prison on January twenty third,

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Speaker 2: two thousand and seven. And subsequently it matched up to

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Speaker 2: Kenneth Wicker, who had already pleaded guilty all those years ago.

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Speaker 2: He was then arrested on February ninth, two thousand and

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Speaker 2: seven for the April fifth and tenth incidents. Then four

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Speaker 2: days later, you were granted a new trial on February

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Speaker 2: thith thirteenth, and the DA subsequently dropped all charges.

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Speaker 4: Dropped all the charge you know, they took the rape

438
00:24:08,160 --> 00:24:10,479
Speaker 4: and everything away from my report.

439
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,120
Speaker 2: So you were in court when.

440
00:24:12,080 --> 00:24:14,080
Speaker 3: All the charges were actually dropped.

441
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:15,520
Speaker 2: And what was that like?

442
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:15,760
Speaker 3: How?

443
00:24:15,880 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 2: Who was there? A lot of family? Was it a

444
00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:18,760
Speaker 2: hot Yeah?

445
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:21,960
Speaker 4: My family, My family there, and there was a lot

446
00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:23,919
Speaker 4: of people, you know, they was happy for me, you know,

447
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 4: even people I didn't know, you know, like even the

448
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,520
Speaker 4: police is. And as a matter of fact, one of

449
00:24:29,560 --> 00:24:32,000
Speaker 4: the police that was used to take me back and forth,

450
00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,560
Speaker 4: the colt, and she came down and said, I always

451
00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:35,560
Speaker 4: knew you was innocent.

452
00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:37,359
Speaker 2: Wow, how'd that feel?

453
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:41,040
Speaker 3: Wonderful man, wonderful.

454
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 2: And it's worth noting that in about fifty percent of

455
00:24:45,080 --> 00:24:49,800
Speaker 2: the instance project cases where DNA has has exculpated an

456
00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,040
Speaker 2: exonerate led to the exoneration of an innocent person. It

457
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:56,240
Speaker 2: has also led to the identification of the guilty person.

458
00:24:56,400 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: That's absolutely right, and in those cases, of course, that

459
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: person has gone on to have committed other heinous crimes.

460
00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:06,600
Speaker 3: Yes, when you.

461
00:25:06,560 --> 00:25:08,399
Speaker 2: Lock up the wrong person, you stop looking for the

462
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,879
Speaker 2: right person, and then that person that's out there is

463
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: most likely going to go and do what they did again.

464
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,640
Speaker 2: It's just a practical issue of we should all want

465
00:25:18,760 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: to clean up these systems as best we can so

466
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: that ourselves and our families are safe.

467
00:25:24,760 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 5: I mean, well, you know, look, Jason, I think it's

468
00:25:27,800 --> 00:25:30,960
Speaker 5: it's symptomatic of a larger issue. It's a symptomatic of

469
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 5: our problem with mass incarceration of this country. I think

470
00:25:35,080 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 5: it's all that is really tied in. We don't as

471
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 5: defense attorneys and accuse citizens. You know, we don't control

472
00:25:43,520 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 5: the fact that, as you well know, we represent five

473
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:48,960
Speaker 5: percent of the world's population, but closing in on twenty

474
00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:52,000
Speaker 5: five percent of the world's incarcerated population. We don't dictate that.

475
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 5: And I don't want this to be a session where

476
00:25:54,119 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 5: I'm kind of talking about prosecutors, but they control so much.

477
00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 5: Pete's case is emblematic of the problem. You had a

478
00:26:01,560 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 5: prosecutor with an antisocial disorder that went on to be

479
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,720
Speaker 5: involved in a murder himself, and as a twenty five

480
00:26:07,800 --> 00:26:11,080
Speaker 5: year old, fresh out of law school kid, I watched

481
00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,680
Speaker 5: what I thought was an unethical prosecution, and I watched

482
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 5: a man lose his freedom because to this prosecutor, it

483
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,560
Speaker 5: was a game. It wasn't about justice, and that's why Peede,

484
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,280
Speaker 5: I made a decision that I was going to spend

485
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 5: the rest of my life defending people because of your case.

486
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,320
Speaker 5: It was just a job. At that point. I didn't

487
00:26:27,320 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 5: know anything about a public defender. I never even met

488
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,679
Speaker 5: a lawyer until my first law school class. I have

489
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,600
Speaker 5: humble beginnings, but your case dictated to me what I

490
00:26:35,600 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 5: wanted to spend the rest of my life doing. I

491
00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:51,520
Speaker 5: watched that prosecutor game the system. It was just a

492
00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:56,639
Speaker 5: game to him, and unfortunately, the power that being a

493
00:26:56,680 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 5: prosecutor brings is often results in misguided prosecutions because they

494
00:27:02,800 --> 00:27:05,920
Speaker 5: have the ability, if they handle ethically, to make sure

495
00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,200
Speaker 5: to the best of their ability, that just doesn't happen

496
00:27:08,520 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 5: to make sure that evidence is preserved, to make sure

497
00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:14,919
Speaker 5: that there is proper identification procedures, and they have the

498
00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 5: ability to be that wall, that last wall of justice

499
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:20,240
Speaker 5: to say, you know, I don't I don't need a

500
00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 5: motion to suppress identification because as the prosecutor, I don't

501
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:26,720
Speaker 5: like the way this went down. We talk so much

502
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:29,879
Speaker 5: about ourselves as defense attorneys and what our job is,

503
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,200
Speaker 5: but we need to be spending a lot of time

504
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,199
Speaker 5: looking at the other side of the courtroom. And I

505
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,640
Speaker 5: get that there's integrity units closing up, but it needs

506
00:27:38,680 --> 00:27:40,560
Speaker 5: to be a lot greater than that. It needs to

507
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 5: be a lot better than just every once in a

508
00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,720
Speaker 5: while a progressive prosecutor running for office. It needs to

509
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,560
Speaker 5: be all over the country because he has the benefit

510
00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 5: of this happening in Atlanta, But when we go to

511
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:58,080
Speaker 5: the rural South, the smaller communities in Mississippi and Alabama

512
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 5: and Tennessee, sadly so a lot of Pete Williams that

513
00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:08,000
Speaker 5: are serving life sentences from prosecutors that were as misguided

514
00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:10,480
Speaker 5: and as corrupt as the one in his case.

515
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,160
Speaker 2: And that's why it's so important for people to get

516
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,400
Speaker 2: out and vote in prosecutor races because most people don't.

517
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 2: The number of people that vote in these races is

518
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:21,200
Speaker 2: so small that if you don't think your vote makes

519
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 2: a difference, it does. I mean we've seen races that

520
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 2: ended up in a dead heat like Tiede. You know,

521
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 2: like your vote is important. And if your one of

522
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,240
Speaker 2: these people think, oh, I'm not going to vote in

523
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: the psidential election, it doesn't matter. Yes it does. It

524
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 2: matters in the presidentialism, but it matters a lot more

525
00:28:35,119 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 2: in your local elections where your your DA is running

526
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:43,480
Speaker 2: and you know, and electing a progressive prosecutor, which that's

527
00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: not even the right word, a fair prosecutor could affect

528
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:48,320
Speaker 2: your life as well, because this could happen to you,

529
00:28:48,320 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: It could happen to Pete, it could happen to anybody.

530
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:51,920
Speaker 2: We see it over and over again on this show.

531
00:28:52,400 --> 00:28:54,400
Speaker 2: And then let's even talk about it from a purely

532
00:28:54,400 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 2: fiscal level, you know, for any conservatives that are listening,

533
00:28:57,440 --> 00:28:59,560
Speaker 2: When we think about the amount of money that the

534
00:28:59,640 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: tax of Georgia paid well upwards of a million dollars,

535
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:05,560
Speaker 2: probably closer to two million dollars to keep Pete locked up,

536
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:08,680
Speaker 2: and then any other income that he would have been

537
00:29:08,720 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: able to earn and pay taxes on and you know

538
00:29:12,280 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: all the rest of this stuff. That's a pretty big

539
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,880
Speaker 2: thing too. I just learned the other day on a

540
00:29:16,920 --> 00:29:20,680
Speaker 2: tangential note, that we spend forty million dollars a day

541
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 2: in America on pre trial detention, right just because people

542
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:28,000
Speaker 2: can't post bail. Forty million a day to lock people

543
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: up who haven't been convicted of anything. That's a day.

544
00:29:31,640 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: That's your tax dollars at work and mine, by the way,

545
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:37,560
Speaker 2: and whoever's listening, it's nuts. I mean, we lock up

546
00:29:37,560 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 2: more people than Russia and China combined. Back to your

547
00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,640
Speaker 2: previous point, we locked black people up at six times

548
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,719
Speaker 2: the rate of South Africa at the height of apartheid.

549
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,120
Speaker 2: And if you're a woman listening, then you should just

550
00:29:49,280 --> 00:29:52,320
Speaker 2: process this for a second, because while you know what

551
00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:55,880
Speaker 2: Drew said is certainly scary and true about us having

552
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,000
Speaker 2: twenty five percent of the world's prison population, we have

553
00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 2: thirty three percent of the world's female prison population. That

554
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: means one out of every three women in prison in

555
00:30:04,160 --> 00:30:07,040
Speaker 2: the world is in America, which is such a small

556
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:09,920
Speaker 2: country when you look at the vast world that's out there,

557
00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:11,800
Speaker 2: and the more we can do to get out there

558
00:30:12,000 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 2: and spread the message. And the more you do to

559
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,520
Speaker 2: get out there and vote and get active and volunteer,

560
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 2: go to Georgia Innis's project a website, you know, learn more.

561
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:25,040
Speaker 2: Contact NACDL. What is it, NACDL dot org exactly, NACDL

562
00:30:25,080 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 2: dot org. That's National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers dot org.

563
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:30,600
Speaker 5: So I'm glad you brought up kind of where people

564
00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 5: fall on the political continuum. You should know that the

565
00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 5: term just finished and there's a new governor here. But

566
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:40,200
Speaker 5: our last governor, Nathan dial As a Republican, two term Republican,

567
00:30:40,360 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 5: and the National Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers gave him

568
00:30:43,680 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 5: a Champion I gave him a Champion of Justice Award

569
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:48,680
Speaker 5: for his work on criminal justice reform. And so you

570
00:30:48,760 --> 00:30:51,200
Speaker 5: hit on it. No matter where you are, left wing,

571
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:54,560
Speaker 5: right wing, no wing, we are any period of time

572
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 5: right now where people are really focusing on criminal justice reform.

573
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,640
Speaker 5: And I think that you bring up all the numbers,

574
00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:06,040
Speaker 5: they're startling and it can impact anybody, you know, whether

575
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,680
Speaker 5: it's the fact that our prison systems are warehousing the

576
00:31:08,720 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 5: mentally ill an adult autistic population. There's so many things

577
00:31:13,440 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 5: that attract people. The National Association of Criminal Defense lawyers.

578
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,520
Speaker 5: As you know, we have our foundation for criminal justice

579
00:31:21,800 --> 00:31:24,959
Speaker 5: and we really embrace non lawyers to be part of it.

580
00:31:25,400 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 5: Our long term goal is to get non lawyers into

581
00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:31,800
Speaker 5: our leadership track. Let them be trustees. We need people

582
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 5: to reach out to us. We just want everyday citizens

583
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,920
Speaker 5: to be involved, come to our meetings, and Jason's right,

584
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 5: there may not be an election that may impact your

585
00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 5: life more than who your local district attorney is. Have

586
00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 5: them answer to your questions. Folks need to take these

587
00:31:49,160 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 5: stories to heart, and which is why this podcast is

588
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,240
Speaker 5: so important. They need to understand that not everybody is

589
00:31:56,280 --> 00:31:58,959
Speaker 5: going to be blessed with the opportunity to connect up

590
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,000
Speaker 5: with the Innocence Project. So listen to podcasts like this

591
00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 5: and get involved the most you can.

592
00:32:05,680 --> 00:32:09,120
Speaker 2: And that is once again an ACDL dot org National

593
00:32:09,120 --> 00:32:13,160
Speaker 2: Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. Now we have this tradition

594
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,120
Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction, which is my favorite part of the show,

595
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,200
Speaker 2: which is where I get to just sit back and

596
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 2: listen and I leave the microphones on for you guys

597
00:32:25,120 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 2: for any closing thoughts that you want to share. And

598
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 2: because Pete is the honored guest here, not that you're not,

599
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 2: but you know, he's the star of the show. I'm

600
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:38,520
Speaker 2: going to let him go last, and so drew any

601
00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:39,720
Speaker 2: parting shots.

602
00:32:40,760 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 5: Pete. I just want to wish you the best and

603
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 5: let you know that the tragedy that occurred to you

604
00:32:49,600 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 5: influence the course of my existence. So my family, all

605
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 5: my clients, I want to hug you.

606
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:03,200
Speaker 2: Pete.

607
00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 3: Oh.

608
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 4: I'm glad y'all had it broadcast to let people know

609
00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 4: that things like that actually happen. People do go to

610
00:33:12,280 --> 00:33:16,160
Speaker 4: jail wrong for their convicted, and I'm just glad you

611
00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:20,080
Speaker 4: all been a publan note that these things actually happen.

612
00:33:26,720 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. You can listen

613
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:31,760
Speaker 2: to this and all the Lava for Good podcasts one

614
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 2: week early and ad free by subscribing to Lava for

615
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 2: Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I want to thank our

616
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 2: production team, Connor Hall and Kathleen Fink, as well as

617
00:33:40,800 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 2: my fellow executive producers Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wartis, and Jeff Clibern.

618
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:46,840
Speaker 2: The music in this production was supplied by three time

619
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:50,000
Speaker 2: OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us

620
00:33:50,000 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 2: across all social media platforms at Lava for Good and

621
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: at Wrongful Conviction. You can also follow me on Instagram

622
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 2: at it's Jason Flamm. Wrongful Conviction is a production of

623
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: Lava for Good podcast and association with Signal Company Number One.

624
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:05,240
Speaker 5: We have worked hard to ensure that all facts reported

625
00:34:05,280 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 5: in this show are accurate. The views and opinions expressed

626
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,439
Speaker 5: by the individuals featured in this show are their own

627
00:34:10,520 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 5: and do not necessarily reflect those of love of for

628
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:13,319
Speaker 5: Good