1 00:00:09,664 --> 00:00:13,103 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is now something you can watch. Just go 2 00:00:13,144 --> 00:00:16,823 Speaker 1: to YouTube and search Mission Implausible podcasts, or click on 3 00:00:16,864 --> 00:00:17,864 Speaker 1: the link to our channel. 4 00:00:17,904 --> 00:00:22,784 Speaker 2: In our show notes, I'm John Cipher and I'm Jerry O'Shea. 5 00:00:23,264 --> 00:00:26,544 Speaker 2: We have over sixty years of experience as clandestine officers 6 00:00:26,624 --> 00:00:29,544 Speaker 2: in the CIA, serving in high risk areas all around 7 00:00:29,544 --> 00:00:30,784 Speaker 2: the world, and part. 8 00:00:30,584 --> 00:00:34,504 Speaker 3: Of our job was creating conspiracies to deceive our adversaries. 9 00:00:34,784 --> 00:00:37,504 Speaker 2: Now we're going to use that experience to investigate the 10 00:00:37,504 --> 00:00:40,504 Speaker 2: conspiracy theories everyone's talking about, as well as some you 11 00:00:40,584 --> 00:00:41,224 Speaker 2: may not have heard. 12 00:00:41,304 --> 00:00:43,584 Speaker 3: Could they be true or are we being manipulated? 13 00:00:43,664 --> 00:00:46,263 Speaker 2: We'll find out now on Mission Implausible. 14 00:00:49,064 --> 00:00:52,903 Speaker 1: This episode of Mission Implausible was recorded previously before the 15 00:00:52,944 --> 00:00:56,864 Speaker 1: government shut down, before the prosecution of Latisia Jams and 16 00:00:56,984 --> 00:00:58,104 Speaker 1: James Comey for. 17 00:00:58,224 --> 00:00:59,944 Speaker 4: A lot of stuff, all right. 18 00:00:59,984 --> 00:01:03,824 Speaker 2: Today's guest is Kendelanian. He's the Justice and Intelligence correspondent 19 00:01:03,864 --> 00:01:07,223 Speaker 2: for NBC News. He's also worked at the Los Angeles Times, 20 00:01:07,304 --> 00:01:10,184 Speaker 2: US Today, and other outlets. The probably more important, he 21 00:01:10,384 --> 00:01:13,504 Speaker 2: was a standout football star for the Williams College FS 22 00:01:13,744 --> 00:01:16,184 Speaker 2: and so Ken, I've known you for a while, and 23 00:01:16,224 --> 00:01:18,503 Speaker 2: I've known you as a reporter on the intelligence community, 24 00:01:18,503 --> 00:01:20,704 Speaker 2: and I think you did a great job there. However, 25 00:01:20,744 --> 00:01:24,103 Speaker 2: your timing on taking over the justice role is either 26 00:01:24,224 --> 00:01:27,384 Speaker 2: really really good or really really bad. I think we're 27 00:01:27,384 --> 00:01:30,104 Speaker 2: seeing some of the biggest changes we've seen in decades 28 00:01:30,143 --> 00:01:33,344 Speaker 2: of the Justice Department. If ever, we have actual conspiracy 29 00:01:33,344 --> 00:01:36,344 Speaker 2: theorists at top roles at the FBI, Justice and in 30 00:01:36,423 --> 00:01:38,783 Speaker 2: the intelligence community. So just to start off, what's your 31 00:01:38,824 --> 00:01:40,624 Speaker 2: take on that on your new beat? 32 00:01:41,063 --> 00:01:43,264 Speaker 4: First of all, John, I'm sure your listeners know that 33 00:01:43,304 --> 00:01:45,143 Speaker 4: you were much more of a lacrosse star than I 34 00:01:45,184 --> 00:01:47,624 Speaker 4: was a football star, So clear that up right away. 35 00:01:47,984 --> 00:01:50,664 Speaker 4: But yeah, the theme that you mentioned, the fact two 36 00:01:50,744 --> 00:01:55,304 Speaker 4: conspiracy theorists or prior conspiracy theorists running the FBI, is 37 00:01:55,304 --> 00:01:58,023 Speaker 4: a fascinating one and has been part of my daily 38 00:01:58,064 --> 00:02:01,024 Speaker 4: life and covering these guys because they made a lot 39 00:02:01,064 --> 00:02:06,023 Speaker 4: of money actually fomenting conspiracy theories about in particularly the FBI. 40 00:02:06,184 --> 00:02:09,744 Speaker 4: Now they're running the place, and what's been interesting me 41 00:02:09,824 --> 00:02:13,304 Speaker 4: is to see how they've navigated that how because they've 42 00:02:13,304 --> 00:02:15,664 Speaker 4: got a following out there that's expecting people to be 43 00:02:15,744 --> 00:02:18,064 Speaker 4: frog marchs out of the FBI and handcuffs, and that's 44 00:02:18,144 --> 00:02:22,824 Speaker 4: expecting answers on Jeffrey Epstein. And that's expecting Dan Bongino's 45 00:02:23,384 --> 00:02:26,304 Speaker 4: weird theory about the who planted the pipe bombs outside 46 00:02:26,344 --> 00:02:28,664 Speaker 4: the RNC and DNC to come to fruition, and of 47 00:02:28,664 --> 00:02:31,864 Speaker 4: course none of that can happen, so they've tried to 48 00:02:31,864 --> 00:02:34,424 Speaker 4: straddle it. For example, I'm sure you saw they gave 49 00:02:34,504 --> 00:02:37,144 Speaker 4: an interview to Maria Bartomo on Fox News where they 50 00:02:37,184 --> 00:02:41,144 Speaker 4: said flatly that Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. Dan Bongenius said, 51 00:02:41,144 --> 00:02:44,344 Speaker 4: I've seen the file. He committed suicide. Cash Ptel said 52 00:02:44,344 --> 00:02:45,904 Speaker 4: the same thing. 53 00:02:45,664 --> 00:02:48,984 Speaker 5: You said, Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide. 54 00:02:49,784 --> 00:02:50,784 Speaker 3: People don't believe it. 55 00:02:50,904 --> 00:02:54,864 Speaker 5: Well, I mean, listen, they have a right to their opinion. 56 00:02:54,944 --> 00:02:57,584 Speaker 5: But as someone who has worked as a public defender, 57 00:02:57,624 --> 00:02:59,864 Speaker 5: as a prosecutor, who's been in that prison system, who's 58 00:02:59,904 --> 00:03:03,144 Speaker 5: been in the Metropolitan Detention Center, who's been in segregated housing, 59 00:03:04,184 --> 00:03:06,104 Speaker 5: you know a suicide when you see one, and that's 60 00:03:06,144 --> 00:03:06,664 Speaker 5: what that was. 61 00:03:07,824 --> 00:03:08,904 Speaker 2: They killed themselves. 62 00:03:09,864 --> 00:03:12,544 Speaker 5: Again, you want me to I've seen the whole file. 63 00:03:12,744 --> 00:03:13,584 Speaker 3: He killed himself. 64 00:03:14,784 --> 00:03:19,384 Speaker 4: They got huge blowe for that from a there's probably 65 00:03:19,464 --> 00:03:22,144 Speaker 4: millions of Americans just do not believe that, and now 66 00:03:22,224 --> 00:03:25,544 Speaker 4: have turned against them. And they repeated it again yesterday 67 00:03:25,584 --> 00:03:29,464 Speaker 4: an interview with Brett Bear on Fox. But for other things, 68 00:03:29,824 --> 00:03:32,383 Speaker 4: so they're trying to they can't. What can they say 69 00:03:32,384 --> 00:03:34,624 Speaker 4: about the Epstein case, Like the evidence is in front 70 00:03:34,624 --> 00:03:37,704 Speaker 4: of them, right they But for other things, they've tried 71 00:03:37,704 --> 00:03:41,344 Speaker 4: to play into their previous conspiracy theories, like cash Bettel 72 00:03:41,464 --> 00:03:44,544 Speaker 4: said promised in this latest Fox interview that he is 73 00:03:44,584 --> 00:03:47,624 Speaker 4: going to show the public the real story of what 74 00:03:47,864 --> 00:03:51,264 Speaker 4: FBI assets were doing in the January sixth attack on 75 00:03:51,304 --> 00:03:53,784 Speaker 4: the Capitol. There's already been a thorough report by the 76 00:03:53,784 --> 00:03:56,384 Speaker 4: Department of Justice in Spector General in this which gave 77 00:03:56,504 --> 00:03:58,464 Speaker 4: chapter and verse on what was true and what was 78 00:03:58,504 --> 00:04:01,384 Speaker 4: false about that conspiracy theory. So I'm not sure what 79 00:04:01,504 --> 00:04:03,944 Speaker 4: else is left to be revealed, But you know, he 80 00:04:04,064 --> 00:04:05,784 Speaker 4: left the impression the public is going to know the 81 00:04:05,824 --> 00:04:09,184 Speaker 4: real story, and conservative media plays right into that, plays 82 00:04:09,224 --> 00:04:12,344 Speaker 4: it up The New York Post, Daily Mail, Fox. So 83 00:04:12,424 --> 00:04:14,624 Speaker 4: that's been really interesting to watch that dynamic. 84 00:04:14,864 --> 00:04:18,264 Speaker 3: So for Stop the Steal the conspiracy theory, there were 85 00:04:18,344 --> 00:04:21,863 Speaker 3: sixty two court cases. They lost sixty of them. Most 86 00:04:21,904 --> 00:04:24,303 Speaker 3: of them were just thrown out because there was no evidence, 87 00:04:24,303 --> 00:04:27,224 Speaker 3: it was without merit, and the two where they prevailed 88 00:04:27,704 --> 00:04:31,144 Speaker 3: were under minor conditions that really made no sense. And 89 00:04:31,784 --> 00:04:34,224 Speaker 3: I wanted to ask you, just knowing the judiciary and 90 00:04:34,264 --> 00:04:37,224 Speaker 3: the system, and the very fact that you would bring 91 00:04:37,464 --> 00:04:41,863 Speaker 3: sixty two cases and have sixty losses and two really 92 00:04:41,943 --> 00:04:44,863 Speaker 3: that don't really mean anything. Is that part of the 93 00:04:44,904 --> 00:04:48,584 Speaker 3: conspiracy to bring those cases? Or is that just like 94 00:04:48,743 --> 00:04:50,863 Speaker 3: trying hard? Where's the line? 95 00:04:50,943 --> 00:04:51,063 Speaker 2: Now? 96 00:04:51,303 --> 00:04:54,384 Speaker 4: That's a great question. I mean, look, and what's also 97 00:04:54,424 --> 00:04:56,944 Speaker 4: interesting is you don't hear much about that anymore, right, 98 00:04:57,024 --> 00:05:00,063 Speaker 4: Like they have power now. So there was some talk 99 00:05:00,063 --> 00:05:02,743 Speaker 4: about we're going to re examine the twenty twenty election, 100 00:05:02,984 --> 00:05:06,224 Speaker 4: and there is a weaponization task Force, let's not forget 101 00:05:06,303 --> 00:05:08,304 Speaker 4: that is supposedly looking at a lot of different things. 102 00:05:08,344 --> 00:05:11,023 Speaker 4: But you don't hear much about that because there isn't 103 00:05:11,024 --> 00:05:13,024 Speaker 4: the evidence out there. It might have taken. Why they 104 00:05:13,063 --> 00:05:16,664 Speaker 4: brought so many cases is there was a demand. Trump 105 00:05:16,784 --> 00:05:20,263 Speaker 4: kept saying find the evidence, and people at Ruvig Giuliani 106 00:05:20,344 --> 00:05:22,264 Speaker 4: were trying to satisfy him, and so they just went 107 00:05:22,303 --> 00:05:24,583 Speaker 4: into court with whatever they had and it wasn't much. 108 00:05:25,224 --> 00:05:28,784 Speaker 4: And the other interesting thing about that whole episode was 109 00:05:28,823 --> 00:05:32,143 Speaker 4: that one of the main parts of the effort of 110 00:05:32,224 --> 00:05:34,743 Speaker 4: Trump to baselessly say there was fraud. Was he wanted 111 00:05:34,743 --> 00:05:38,303 Speaker 4: the Justice Department to tell the country that there was fraud, 112 00:05:38,503 --> 00:05:41,424 Speaker 4: and he asked his senior he demanded really his senior 113 00:05:41,544 --> 00:05:44,704 Speaker 4: Justice Department officials to do that, and they all said no, 114 00:05:44,823 --> 00:05:48,144 Speaker 4: and they threatened to resign. These were his political appointees, 115 00:05:48,584 --> 00:05:51,664 Speaker 4: and they were essentially they were unsung heroes at the 116 00:05:51,664 --> 00:05:54,224 Speaker 4: moment because they they had sent out a letter because 117 00:05:54,224 --> 00:05:56,463 Speaker 4: what Trump wanted to do, saying we found fraud, we 118 00:05:56,464 --> 00:05:58,704 Speaker 4: need to investigate this. That would change the whole equation, 119 00:05:59,224 --> 00:06:02,424 Speaker 4: and they didn't. And none of those people are working 120 00:06:02,823 --> 00:06:05,704 Speaker 4: in the Trump Justice Department in the second term. There 121 00:06:05,704 --> 00:06:06,743 Speaker 4: aren't people like that there. 122 00:06:06,784 --> 00:06:06,904 Speaker 6: Now. 123 00:06:06,943 --> 00:06:09,303 Speaker 4: There are people who I think would do whatever he wanted, 124 00:06:09,303 --> 00:06:12,583 Speaker 4: would say yes to that request now, and that's pretty. 125 00:06:12,344 --> 00:06:15,263 Speaker 2: It is scary. So Jerry and I have been out 126 00:06:15,424 --> 00:06:17,784 Speaker 2: of government service for a while now, and I'm always 127 00:06:17,784 --> 00:06:19,984 Speaker 2: careful to not try to talk to people who are 128 00:06:19,984 --> 00:06:23,464 Speaker 2: inside and find out what's happening. But that's your job. 129 00:06:23,943 --> 00:06:26,584 Speaker 2: What's it like inside these places the extent that you're 130 00:06:26,584 --> 00:06:29,023 Speaker 2: getting reporting on that, are people leaving? Are people just 131 00:06:29,104 --> 00:06:32,224 Speaker 2: keeping their heads down? What are you learning about that? 132 00:06:32,544 --> 00:06:35,384 Speaker 4: John? Yet? People are leaving, and this is it's been 133 00:06:35,383 --> 00:06:40,023 Speaker 4: a real earthquake. It's hard to convey how unprecedented that work. 134 00:06:40,024 --> 00:06:42,584 Speaker 4: It's use all the time, how different this is than 135 00:06:42,623 --> 00:06:45,784 Speaker 4: any other administration in modern history, and how we didn't 136 00:06:45,784 --> 00:06:47,703 Speaker 4: really see this coming. Remember, people used to talk about 137 00:06:47,743 --> 00:06:50,624 Speaker 4: Schedule F. Donald Trump was going to implement Schedule F 138 00:06:50,704 --> 00:06:52,703 Speaker 4: to get rid of the senior the civil servants. It 139 00:06:52,743 --> 00:06:55,143 Speaker 4: turns out he didn't need to do that because he 140 00:06:55,264 --> 00:06:59,623 Speaker 4: was willing to fire people in what many experts say 141 00:06:59,623 --> 00:07:03,863 Speaker 4: are is legally questionable ways. He's willing to reassign civil 142 00:07:03,904 --> 00:07:07,263 Speaker 4: servants in ways that they probably could challenge. But it 143 00:07:07,303 --> 00:07:10,304 Speaker 4: turns out it's pretty expensive. I are a lawyer and 144 00:07:10,304 --> 00:07:13,023 Speaker 4: go to the Meritism's Protection Board and then you're still 145 00:07:13,064 --> 00:07:14,583 Speaker 4: out of a job anyway, and you don't have income 146 00:07:14,624 --> 00:07:17,184 Speaker 4: for two years. So people aren't doing that. So what 147 00:07:17,264 --> 00:07:20,264 Speaker 4: he's found is that he what they have found is 148 00:07:20,264 --> 00:07:23,864 Speaker 4: that they've been able to remove most of the top 149 00:07:23,904 --> 00:07:26,944 Speaker 4: officials at the Justice Department, many of the top officials 150 00:07:26,944 --> 00:07:30,584 Speaker 4: at the FBI, and targeted ways like they also they 151 00:07:30,584 --> 00:07:33,264 Speaker 4: fired all the prosecutors for most of the prosecutors who 152 00:07:33,344 --> 00:07:36,224 Speaker 4: worked for the Special Counsel Jack Smith case. These were 153 00:07:36,264 --> 00:07:39,624 Speaker 4: career prosecutors who had done Yeoman's work for the governments. 154 00:07:39,624 --> 00:07:42,944 Speaker 4: Many of the national security experts they've removed, for example, 155 00:07:43,384 --> 00:07:45,784 Speaker 4: many of the top officials in the National Security Division 156 00:07:45,824 --> 00:07:48,824 Speaker 4: of the Justice Department, a lot of the institutional memory, 157 00:07:48,824 --> 00:07:51,463 Speaker 4: and they did it by transferring them to things that 158 00:07:51,504 --> 00:07:53,384 Speaker 4: had nothing to do with their legal expertise, like the 159 00:07:53,424 --> 00:07:58,023 Speaker 4: Sanctuary City Task Force or some program to train judges overseas. 160 00:07:58,064 --> 00:07:59,664 Speaker 4: And after a while, these people said, you know, I 161 00:07:59,704 --> 00:08:01,783 Speaker 4: can go earn a good living in the private sector. 162 00:08:02,024 --> 00:08:05,064 Speaker 4: I'm not putting up with this anymore. And that expertise, 163 00:08:05,104 --> 00:08:07,424 Speaker 4: by the way, that's not easily rebuilt. You guys know 164 00:08:07,424 --> 00:08:09,064 Speaker 4: this because you work in government. That's going to take 165 00:08:10,184 --> 00:08:12,224 Speaker 4: to replenish. It's not just going to be like, oh, 166 00:08:12,224 --> 00:08:13,864 Speaker 4: a new president in four years, we can hire all 167 00:08:13,864 --> 00:08:17,144 Speaker 4: these people back. They're gone. The Civil Rights Division of 168 00:08:17,184 --> 00:08:20,584 Speaker 4: the Justice Department, more than half the lawyers, more than 169 00:08:20,624 --> 00:08:24,304 Speaker 4: have maybe sixty seventy percent have left because it's being 170 00:08:24,384 --> 00:08:26,984 Speaker 4: run by a person who's just turned civil rights enforcement 171 00:08:27,584 --> 00:08:32,304 Speaker 4: on its head. And you know, in the FBI, initially 172 00:08:32,344 --> 00:08:34,024 Speaker 4: there was a plan, we think there was a plan 173 00:08:34,104 --> 00:08:36,584 Speaker 4: to fire a mass amount of people who had worked 174 00:08:36,624 --> 00:08:39,304 Speaker 4: on January six. It was interesting the people that they 175 00:08:39,304 --> 00:08:41,984 Speaker 4: brought in to be the acting director, a man named 176 00:08:41,984 --> 00:08:44,304 Speaker 4: Brian Driscoll and a guy named Rob Cassane. They stood 177 00:08:44,384 --> 00:08:46,584 Speaker 4: up and they said no to that, and they I 178 00:08:46,624 --> 00:08:49,504 Speaker 4: think they were successful and they staved that off. But 179 00:08:49,544 --> 00:08:53,584 Speaker 4: nonetheless they removed basically all the top layer of management 180 00:08:54,384 --> 00:08:59,144 Speaker 4: assistant directors. There have been firings and removals of several 181 00:08:59,184 --> 00:09:02,384 Speaker 4: special agents in charge. Some we know about, others we 182 00:09:02,504 --> 00:09:05,464 Speaker 4: don't know. I'm trying to confirm and what the message 183 00:09:05,504 --> 00:09:08,424 Speaker 4: that that is sent is you toe the line or 184 00:09:08,583 --> 00:09:11,223 Speaker 4: you're out. You know. The first term, we saw bureaucracies 185 00:09:11,664 --> 00:09:15,424 Speaker 4: acting more normally and resisting things that they thought were illegal, 186 00:09:16,024 --> 00:09:17,504 Speaker 4: and it was a different group of people. Anyway, the 187 00:09:17,504 --> 00:09:20,384 Speaker 4: political appointees were We're not asking them to do these 188 00:09:20,463 --> 00:09:24,864 Speaker 4: kinds of extreme things. Now we're seeing political appointees turning 189 00:09:25,264 --> 00:09:28,904 Speaker 4: agencies the missions on their head, and civil servants feeling 190 00:09:28,904 --> 00:09:31,664 Speaker 4: compelled to go along or they know they're going to 191 00:09:31,703 --> 00:09:33,984 Speaker 4: lose their job. And you guys know that this is 192 00:09:34,024 --> 00:09:38,703 Speaker 4: not normal for government. This just doesn't happen. This Trump 193 00:09:38,744 --> 00:09:41,384 Speaker 4: administration very different from the first. 194 00:09:41,184 --> 00:09:44,384 Speaker 2: One and just to add to that is the FBI 195 00:09:44,463 --> 00:09:46,424 Speaker 2: and the CIA in the State Department. In many ways, 196 00:09:46,504 --> 00:09:48,944 Speaker 2: they're like what people probably know better as the military. 197 00:09:48,984 --> 00:09:50,904 Speaker 2: Like you don't become an army general or a Marine 198 00:09:50,984 --> 00:09:53,623 Speaker 2: general or an admiral by just signing up and when 199 00:09:53,624 --> 00:09:55,544 Speaker 2: you're in your mid twenties they make it. It takes 200 00:09:55,624 --> 00:09:58,583 Speaker 2: years and years of experience. It takes a long time 201 00:09:58,624 --> 00:10:02,104 Speaker 2: to create that expertise, that knowledge, that wide ability to lead, 202 00:10:02,504 --> 00:10:05,463 Speaker 2: that knowledge of these complicated and complex systems. It takes years. 203 00:10:05,504 --> 00:10:08,504 Speaker 2: That's why all the admirals and generals are in their fifties. 204 00:10:08,624 --> 00:10:11,863 Speaker 2: It's not just the and so you lose those people. 205 00:10:11,944 --> 00:10:13,784 Speaker 2: It isn't as if you just can turn the keys 206 00:10:13,824 --> 00:10:16,424 Speaker 2: over or when you leave, if new people come in, 207 00:10:17,184 --> 00:10:18,503 Speaker 2: you're losing that expertise. 208 00:10:18,944 --> 00:10:21,144 Speaker 4: And I know most of your listeners know this, you 209 00:10:21,144 --> 00:10:23,184 Speaker 4: guys know this, but just to explain and make it 210 00:10:23,384 --> 00:10:25,224 Speaker 4: very clear, these we're talking about people who are not 211 00:10:25,384 --> 00:10:29,784 Speaker 4: political appointees. They are civil servants. They've served Republicans, they've 212 00:10:29,824 --> 00:10:32,344 Speaker 4: served Democrats. They were in the first Trump administration. They 213 00:10:32,384 --> 00:10:34,304 Speaker 4: didn't like everything they were asked to do, but they 214 00:10:34,343 --> 00:10:36,784 Speaker 4: did it. Some of them were appointed in the first 215 00:10:36,784 --> 00:10:39,863 Speaker 4: Trump administration. The head of the Public Integrity Unit, which 216 00:10:39,904 --> 00:10:41,544 Speaker 4: is by the way, has been disbanded. We could talk 217 00:10:41,583 --> 00:10:44,944 Speaker 4: about that at the Justice Department was a Republican Trump appointee. 218 00:10:45,144 --> 00:10:48,144 Speaker 4: But yet those people, anybody who is deemed to have 219 00:10:48,223 --> 00:10:50,743 Speaker 4: done things that the Trump folks didn't like in the 220 00:10:50,784 --> 00:10:53,944 Speaker 4: Biden administration, they're out. And again they're supposed to be 221 00:10:53,984 --> 00:10:56,703 Speaker 4: protected by civil service rules. The idea behind civil service 222 00:10:57,144 --> 00:11:00,544 Speaker 4: is that you're insulated from politics and from political demands, 223 00:11:00,544 --> 00:11:04,224 Speaker 4: but that system has come under real strain in this administration. 224 00:11:04,463 --> 00:11:07,024 Speaker 3: So Ken, I think one of the things that is 225 00:11:07,544 --> 00:11:11,623 Speaker 3: really different and is also scared and touches on conspiracy, 226 00:11:12,024 --> 00:11:16,464 Speaker 3: is now the relationship between the DOJ and the White House. 227 00:11:16,664 --> 00:11:19,024 Speaker 3: It was there was always a there was always a 228 00:11:19,064 --> 00:11:21,144 Speaker 3: wall between them, and there needed to be because the 229 00:11:21,184 --> 00:11:24,384 Speaker 3: DOJ and the FBI needed to be a political and 230 00:11:24,424 --> 00:11:27,263 Speaker 3: that's not really the case anymore. So what are your 231 00:11:27,304 --> 00:11:31,544 Speaker 3: concerns about the White House just telling and the Justice 232 00:11:31,544 --> 00:11:36,264 Speaker 3: Department being okay with investigating and bringing cases against political 233 00:11:36,264 --> 00:11:40,064 Speaker 3: opponents for political reasons, and b what happens when they 234 00:11:40,064 --> 00:11:42,664 Speaker 3: start to go to court or people are pressured to 235 00:11:42,664 --> 00:11:44,623 Speaker 3: plead guilty and you won't have to go through the 236 00:11:45,343 --> 00:11:48,263 Speaker 3: process is often the most painful thing, right, you got 237 00:11:48,304 --> 00:11:51,184 Speaker 3: to get lawyers. You could lose. But if you plead guilty, 238 00:11:51,504 --> 00:11:54,223 Speaker 3: which is what they really what they want. And so 239 00:11:54,703 --> 00:11:56,944 Speaker 3: what's your sort of sense one where we are now 240 00:11:56,984 --> 00:11:58,144 Speaker 3: and where you see us going. 241 00:11:58,184 --> 00:12:01,904 Speaker 4: Maybe you're putting your finger on another unprecedented keep. I 242 00:12:01,984 --> 00:12:05,024 Speaker 4: hate to use that word. It's an earthquake of a development. Really, 243 00:12:05,424 --> 00:12:08,464 Speaker 4: for the first time in the post Watergate era, we 244 00:12:08,624 --> 00:12:11,024 Speaker 4: have a Justice to Apartment that has thrown out the 245 00:12:11,103 --> 00:12:15,264 Speaker 4: idea of being independent and of not having contacts with 246 00:12:15,304 --> 00:12:17,984 Speaker 4: the White House on individual criminal cases. And we have 247 00:12:18,384 --> 00:12:21,824 Speaker 4: and said they're completely in lockstep with the White House 248 00:12:21,824 --> 00:12:24,104 Speaker 4: and the president. You've got an Attorney general, we've all 249 00:12:24,103 --> 00:12:27,304 Speaker 4: seen her on Fox, but she says openly she's a 250 00:12:27,343 --> 00:12:29,224 Speaker 4: friend and ally of the president. She's there to carry 251 00:12:29,223 --> 00:12:32,184 Speaker 4: out the president policies. In the last administration, Marrik Garland, 252 00:12:32,504 --> 00:12:33,824 Speaker 4: by the end, he didn't even want to be in 253 00:12:33,824 --> 00:12:36,344 Speaker 4: the same room with Joe Biden. He was investigating his son. 254 00:12:36,784 --> 00:12:39,224 Speaker 4: You know, there was no love loss between that White 255 00:12:39,264 --> 00:12:42,704 Speaker 4: House and that Justice Department, and Garland took pains to 256 00:12:42,744 --> 00:12:46,144 Speaker 4: be independent. It is completely the opposite here for decades, 257 00:12:46,144 --> 00:12:48,784 Speaker 4: there's been a White House contacts policy that restricts who 258 00:12:48,784 --> 00:12:51,544 Speaker 4: with the White House can talk to certain people that 259 00:12:51,664 --> 00:12:55,024 Speaker 4: Justice armored about criminal investigations. We don't know exactly what 260 00:12:55,103 --> 00:12:57,383 Speaker 4: happened with that policy, but we don't believe that it's 261 00:12:57,424 --> 00:13:00,784 Speaker 4: being followed. And again we don't have the details because 262 00:13:01,264 --> 00:13:04,304 Speaker 4: it's hard to penetrate the Trump inner workings about who 263 00:13:04,343 --> 00:13:07,984 Speaker 4: exactly is Stephen Miller talking to the Attorney general, which 264 00:13:08,064 --> 00:13:10,544 Speaker 4: levers are being pulled, But we know very clearly that, 265 00:13:10,703 --> 00:13:14,104 Speaker 4: for example, Donald Trump signed an executive order in the 266 00:13:14,103 --> 00:13:18,504 Speaker 4: Oval Office, essentially ordering They called it a review, not 267 00:13:18,583 --> 00:13:20,984 Speaker 4: an investigation. In a review, probably the lawyers use that 268 00:13:21,024 --> 00:13:24,264 Speaker 4: word of Chris Krebs, the former head of the Cybersecurity Agency, 269 00:13:24,304 --> 00:13:26,664 Speaker 4: and then lo and behold, a few weeks later we 270 00:13:26,703 --> 00:13:30,104 Speaker 4: reported that he's under criminal investigation. And that is chilling. 271 00:13:30,144 --> 00:13:33,144 Speaker 4: That is the idea that a president can essentially direct 272 00:13:33,144 --> 00:13:35,304 Speaker 4: a criminal investigation of a political opponent. 273 00:13:35,703 --> 00:13:37,784 Speaker 2: And yeah, he was appointed by Trump the first time. 274 00:13:37,824 --> 00:13:40,424 Speaker 4: Exactly, and why Trump doesn't like the fact that he 275 00:13:40,424 --> 00:13:43,264 Speaker 4: said the twenty twenty election was free and fair and 276 00:13:43,343 --> 00:13:46,184 Speaker 4: free from fraud. But to your point earlier, Jerry, what 277 00:13:46,223 --> 00:13:48,664 Speaker 4: are the consequences of this, because there still is a 278 00:13:48,703 --> 00:13:51,424 Speaker 4: court system and you still need a jury verdict to 279 00:13:51,463 --> 00:13:55,264 Speaker 4: convict somebody, So that is really hard to do. But 280 00:13:56,064 --> 00:13:59,984 Speaker 4: as you mentioned, just being under federal criminal investigation is expensive. 281 00:14:00,384 --> 00:14:04,104 Speaker 4: It causes anguish, it causes problems for people. It's something 282 00:14:04,144 --> 00:14:06,744 Speaker 4: that nobody wants to do. I mean, Chris Krebs had 283 00:14:06,784 --> 00:14:10,144 Speaker 4: to leave his company, and despite him leave a company, 284 00:14:10,264 --> 00:14:12,904 Speaker 4: they still that company. Members of that company still lost 285 00:14:12,984 --> 00:14:16,223 Speaker 4: their security clearances. They're in the cybersecurity business, they need those. 286 00:14:16,544 --> 00:14:19,144 Speaker 4: So these are the kind of things that are happening. 287 00:14:19,224 --> 00:14:22,704 Speaker 4: This White House has shown no compunction about going after 288 00:14:23,184 --> 00:14:28,024 Speaker 4: its enemies using whatever power can removing security clearances. We 289 00:14:28,064 --> 00:14:30,384 Speaker 4: can talk about what's been happening with the law firms. 290 00:14:30,624 --> 00:14:32,384 Speaker 2: Your media are the ones that are supposed to protect us, 291 00:14:32,384 --> 00:14:34,984 Speaker 2: So keep doing what you can there. But to go 292 00:14:35,024 --> 00:14:37,104 Speaker 2: to a little bit a conspiracy thing recently, I don't 293 00:14:37,104 --> 00:14:40,464 Speaker 2: know if you saw this report about Fort Knox. So 294 00:14:40,824 --> 00:14:44,104 Speaker 2: Fort Knox supposedly where the gold is, the government controls it. 295 00:14:44,144 --> 00:14:47,264 Speaker 2: There's like any government, so there's regular reviews, there's people there, 296 00:14:47,304 --> 00:14:49,984 Speaker 2: there's security. Donald Trump has kept up this thing that, oh, 297 00:14:50,104 --> 00:14:52,224 Speaker 2: maybe the gold is not there. Then it turns out 298 00:14:52,224 --> 00:14:56,224 Speaker 2: his son runs a company that benefits by this. He's 299 00:14:56,504 --> 00:14:58,984 Speaker 2: spread the word that maybe the gold is not safe 300 00:14:58,984 --> 00:15:01,304 Speaker 2: and maybe it's not there, which raises the price of gold, 301 00:15:01,344 --> 00:15:04,504 Speaker 2: which helps his son specifically with his gold company and 302 00:15:04,544 --> 00:15:07,224 Speaker 2: these type of things. And then people around him, you know, 303 00:15:07,264 --> 00:15:10,544 Speaker 2: On Musk and others, they amplify this and they create 304 00:15:10,584 --> 00:15:13,024 Speaker 2: this fake story completely out of whole clock that oh 305 00:15:13,024 --> 00:15:15,304 Speaker 2: my god, maybe the gold's not safe, which of course 306 00:15:15,384 --> 00:15:17,944 Speaker 2: is silly. He's a president of the United States, get it. 307 00:15:18,104 --> 00:15:21,384 Speaker 2: He could get the answer in five minutes. And in fact, 308 00:15:21,384 --> 00:15:23,104 Speaker 2: you don't. Those of us who work in the company, 309 00:15:23,064 --> 00:15:24,544 Speaker 2: you don't need to even try to get the answer, 310 00:15:24,544 --> 00:15:26,784 Speaker 2: because of course it's safe. That's what. There's a whole 311 00:15:27,064 --> 00:15:28,064 Speaker 2: institution behind this. 312 00:15:29,264 --> 00:15:32,744 Speaker 6: Fort Knox is synonymous with security. It's the place where 313 00:15:32,744 --> 00:15:37,264 Speaker 6: America's gold reserves are stored. But are those legendary vaults 314 00:15:37,344 --> 00:15:40,944 Speaker 6: actually empty? President Trump and Elon Musk want to see 315 00:15:40,984 --> 00:15:41,904 Speaker 6: for themselves. 316 00:15:42,264 --> 00:15:44,184 Speaker 2: We're going to go into Fort Knox to make sure 317 00:15:44,184 --> 00:15:46,584 Speaker 2: the gold is there. He'll be totally surprised. 318 00:15:46,624 --> 00:15:47,384 Speaker 6: We opened the door. 319 00:15:47,424 --> 00:15:49,864 Speaker 2: We'll say it is nothing here. They stole this too. 320 00:15:50,264 --> 00:15:52,184 Speaker 2: We're actually going to Fort Knox to see if the 321 00:15:52,184 --> 00:15:56,224 Speaker 2: gold is there, because maybe somebody stole the gold, tons 322 00:15:56,264 --> 00:15:56,704 Speaker 2: of gold. 323 00:15:57,464 --> 00:16:01,744 Speaker 4: The idea that millions of people believe this stuff is 324 00:16:01,904 --> 00:16:04,384 Speaker 4: disturbing in and of itself, right, like this thing that's 325 00:16:04,384 --> 00:16:06,184 Speaker 4: self evident to you and me, of course, the goal, 326 00:16:06,504 --> 00:16:09,904 Speaker 4: And even Chuck Krassley, a Republican senator Trump ally, I remember, 327 00:16:10,064 --> 00:16:12,184 Speaker 4: said right away, I was in Fort Knox a few 328 00:16:12,264 --> 00:16:14,264 Speaker 4: years ago. I saw the goal that's there, but that 329 00:16:14,304 --> 00:16:17,024 Speaker 4: didn't stop people from believing it. So that's that. But 330 00:16:17,144 --> 00:16:18,984 Speaker 4: in terms of the corruption, look, I this is not 331 00:16:19,024 --> 00:16:21,184 Speaker 4: what I report on a daily basis, but I've been 332 00:16:21,304 --> 00:16:24,144 Speaker 4: watching it and I read a great piece by Peter 333 00:16:24,184 --> 00:16:26,104 Speaker 4: Baker in the New York Times that really laid out 334 00:16:26,224 --> 00:16:30,264 Speaker 4: how this we again, this is a thing that we 335 00:16:30,384 --> 00:16:33,224 Speaker 4: have never seen before in the modern history of the presidency. 336 00:16:33,344 --> 00:16:35,504 Speaker 4: I mean, look, we all you know, historians have now 337 00:16:35,584 --> 00:16:38,824 Speaker 4: shown that LBJ was pretty corrupt, he had the TV stations. 338 00:16:39,264 --> 00:16:42,904 Speaker 4: Nixon did what Nixon did. But this is massive. And 339 00:16:43,024 --> 00:16:44,904 Speaker 4: first of all, Donald Trump was the first in the 340 00:16:44,904 --> 00:16:47,064 Speaker 4: first term. He was the first president in the modern 341 00:16:47,064 --> 00:16:49,624 Speaker 4: era who didn't put his holdings in a blind trust 342 00:16:49,624 --> 00:16:53,184 Speaker 4: and disassociate himself from his businesses. But it was the 343 00:16:53,184 --> 00:16:54,824 Speaker 4: things that we were worried about in the first term, 344 00:16:54,904 --> 00:16:57,784 Speaker 4: like which foreign governments were buying hotel rooms at the 345 00:16:57,824 --> 00:17:01,864 Speaker 4: Trump hotel, are quaint in comparison with what we're seeing now. 346 00:17:02,144 --> 00:17:04,984 Speaker 4: As you mentioned the dinner where people paid millions of 347 00:17:04,984 --> 00:17:08,824 Speaker 4: dollars to essentially dine with Trump. The deals that his 348 00:17:08,984 --> 00:17:12,424 Speaker 4: son and in law are making the crypto, the meme 349 00:17:12,504 --> 00:17:15,744 Speaker 4: coin not just it's unbelievable that he's able to they 350 00:17:15,824 --> 00:17:18,224 Speaker 4: the family, are able to enrich themselves this way as 351 00:17:18,224 --> 00:17:22,344 Speaker 4: they're deregulating crypto and taking actions that fuel crypto boom. 352 00:17:22,744 --> 00:17:25,104 Speaker 2: And well, in the tariffs, you this whole thing, I'm 353 00:17:25,104 --> 00:17:27,024 Speaker 2: going to put these big tariffs on. But if you 354 00:17:27,144 --> 00:17:29,344 Speaker 2: come to me personally, you're Apple, and you come to 355 00:17:29,384 --> 00:17:31,544 Speaker 2: me personally and say, okay, I'll give you, I'll give 356 00:17:31,544 --> 00:17:33,224 Speaker 2: you a break, but you've got to do things for me, 357 00:17:33,344 --> 00:17:36,064 Speaker 2: it's just old fashioned corruption, like Jerry and I saw 358 00:17:36,064 --> 00:17:37,264 Speaker 2: overseas for many years. 359 00:17:37,424 --> 00:17:39,384 Speaker 4: It seems that way, and even as this is going 360 00:17:39,424 --> 00:17:41,744 Speaker 4: on on, Trump and his aides to dismantled all the 361 00:17:41,824 --> 00:17:46,064 Speaker 4: mechanisms that would check that corruption, whether it's firing the 362 00:17:46,104 --> 00:17:49,384 Speaker 4: inspector generals, or doing away with the public Integrity section 363 00:17:49,464 --> 00:17:52,024 Speaker 4: of the Justice Department. By the way, I'm not sure 364 00:17:52,024 --> 00:17:54,384 Speaker 4: that any of those entities could have dealt with a 365 00:17:54,504 --> 00:17:57,104 Speaker 4: president who is doing these things in the wake of 366 00:17:57,144 --> 00:17:59,864 Speaker 4: a Supreme Court decision that said the presidence immune prostitution. 367 00:17:59,944 --> 00:18:01,704 Speaker 4: So I don't know if any of this would have helped, 368 00:18:01,744 --> 00:18:03,904 Speaker 4: but at least it might have exposed more some of 369 00:18:03,944 --> 00:18:05,864 Speaker 4: this stuff. You might have had if you had an 370 00:18:05,904 --> 00:18:09,744 Speaker 4: independent FBI, then they saw this, they might investigate, you know, 371 00:18:09,784 --> 00:18:12,464 Speaker 4: and at least start an investigation. But we have none 372 00:18:12,504 --> 00:18:15,824 Speaker 4: of that. And so you know, there's there's the stuff 373 00:18:15,824 --> 00:18:17,384 Speaker 4: we know about and then there's the stuff we don't 374 00:18:17,384 --> 00:18:17,744 Speaker 4: know about it. 375 00:18:27,864 --> 00:18:30,744 Speaker 3: So Ken, John and I and you we all have 376 00:18:30,864 --> 00:18:35,664 Speaker 3: something in common. We are all enemies of the state. Now, 377 00:18:35,864 --> 00:18:38,783 Speaker 3: went back when we were in Cia, the state we 378 00:18:38,784 --> 00:18:42,264 Speaker 3: were enemies of was like Russia, North Korea, Iran, And 379 00:18:42,304 --> 00:18:44,544 Speaker 3: now you're the current White House calling members of the 380 00:18:44,624 --> 00:18:47,264 Speaker 3: of the of the media enemies of the state. So 381 00:18:47,664 --> 00:18:50,024 Speaker 3: how we got around, you know, we found people who 382 00:18:50,024 --> 00:18:54,344 Speaker 3: were in those states who couldn't stand as agents. Often right, 383 00:18:54,424 --> 00:18:57,904 Speaker 3: they would volunteer and then we would handle them securely 384 00:18:58,384 --> 00:19:00,624 Speaker 3: to make sure that the information got to where it 385 00:19:00,704 --> 00:19:05,104 Speaker 3: was the truth. So now is sort of an enemy 386 00:19:05,144 --> 00:19:07,584 Speaker 3: of the state, said tongue in cheek, And I think 387 00:19:07,584 --> 00:19:12,024 Speaker 3: you're a present of democracy. A What is your relationship 388 00:19:12,184 --> 00:19:16,304 Speaker 3: to the Justice Department, folks, And are you still able 389 00:19:16,424 --> 00:19:19,864 Speaker 3: to get people to talk to you offline and tell 390 00:19:19,904 --> 00:19:21,864 Speaker 3: you the truth because there's a lot of fear about 391 00:19:21,864 --> 00:19:24,424 Speaker 3: being hunted down and fired. I guess what I want 392 00:19:24,464 --> 00:19:26,584 Speaker 3: to hear is I want you to assure us and 393 00:19:26,664 --> 00:19:29,783 Speaker 3: listeners that, yeah, you can keep people safe and they 394 00:19:29,824 --> 00:19:32,104 Speaker 3: can find ways to talk to you to talk about 395 00:19:32,144 --> 00:19:33,783 Speaker 3: the truth of what's going on. 396 00:19:34,024 --> 00:19:37,064 Speaker 4: The great question, Jerry, And the answer is absolutely yes. 397 00:19:37,864 --> 00:19:41,344 Speaker 4: In an atmosphere like this, people want to talk more 398 00:19:41,384 --> 00:19:44,824 Speaker 4: than ever. People who had never talked before are talking now. 399 00:19:45,264 --> 00:19:47,504 Speaker 4: My relationship with the Justice Department, frankly, is a cordial 400 00:19:47,544 --> 00:19:50,544 Speaker 4: with the Public Affairs Department that Pam Bondi appointees. They're 401 00:19:50,584 --> 00:19:53,624 Speaker 4: perfectly nice people and we have a working relationship, and 402 00:19:53,664 --> 00:19:55,464 Speaker 4: I of course give them a chance. If there's a 403 00:19:55,464 --> 00:19:57,304 Speaker 4: critical story, I give them a chance to come and 404 00:19:57,344 --> 00:19:59,664 Speaker 4: I tell them what we're about to report, and I 405 00:19:59,704 --> 00:20:03,624 Speaker 4: take their point of view into account. But thankfully there 406 00:20:03,624 --> 00:20:05,984 Speaker 4: are people inside both the FBI and the dj and 407 00:20:06,024 --> 00:20:09,624 Speaker 4: other places that are willing to take risks and to 408 00:20:09,624 --> 00:20:12,584 Speaker 4: tell us things that they're not telling us classified things. 409 00:20:12,624 --> 00:20:14,784 Speaker 4: By the way, they're not going to violate the law 410 00:20:14,944 --> 00:20:17,224 Speaker 4: to do this, but that's okay. We don't need to 411 00:20:17,264 --> 00:20:20,344 Speaker 4: know that. They're telling us what's happening, what moves are 412 00:20:20,344 --> 00:20:23,704 Speaker 4: being made policy wise, what personnel who's getting fired, just 413 00:20:23,864 --> 00:20:27,944 Speaker 4: the basic workings of these organizations. And frankly, the FBI 414 00:20:28,384 --> 00:20:31,424 Speaker 4: leadership has been very annoyed by some stories, including one 415 00:20:31,424 --> 00:20:35,384 Speaker 4: I did about Dan Bongino having a large security detail, 416 00:20:35,944 --> 00:20:39,224 Speaker 4: and has started leak hunts, leak investigations, and they've been 417 00:20:39,264 --> 00:20:42,864 Speaker 4: polygraphing people inside the FBI, and you guys know what that. 418 00:20:43,184 --> 00:20:44,984 Speaker 4: You guys know the implications of that, and so. 419 00:20:45,024 --> 00:20:48,544 Speaker 3: They don't really work, all right. They only tell whether 420 00:20:48,584 --> 00:20:50,824 Speaker 3: you're nervous. They can't tell whether you're lying or not. 421 00:20:50,904 --> 00:20:53,184 Speaker 2: And if you want loyalty, if you start polygraphing people, 422 00:20:53,184 --> 00:20:54,864 Speaker 2: there goes that exactly. 423 00:20:54,504 --> 00:20:56,664 Speaker 4: Right, Exactly you would if you were trying to recruit 424 00:20:56,664 --> 00:20:59,664 Speaker 4: people at a foreign government agency, you would just be 425 00:20:59,824 --> 00:21:02,824 Speaker 4: thrilled to hear that the bosses are polygraphing people and 426 00:21:02,984 --> 00:21:05,824 Speaker 4: dealing them with suspicion. So yeah, but the answer is yes. 427 00:21:06,024 --> 00:21:10,024 Speaker 4: You know, the vast majority of people inside these institutions 428 00:21:10,064 --> 00:21:12,384 Speaker 4: are not happy with things that are happening. It's not 429 00:21:12,424 --> 00:21:14,384 Speaker 4: that they're against everything Donald Trump wants to do. They may, 430 00:21:14,384 --> 00:21:17,744 Speaker 4: for example, be perfectly happy with cracking down on immigration 431 00:21:18,264 --> 00:21:20,544 Speaker 4: or whatever, but they see a corrosion of the rule 432 00:21:20,584 --> 00:21:23,144 Speaker 4: of law, particularly the way the FBI and the DOJ 433 00:21:23,344 --> 00:21:26,024 Speaker 4: have been treated, and they're acting accordingly. 434 00:21:26,224 --> 00:21:28,264 Speaker 2: Obviously, the Jake Tapper book that came out, and he's 435 00:21:28,264 --> 00:21:31,464 Speaker 2: making the rounds about the Biden health story, what's your 436 00:21:31,504 --> 00:21:32,024 Speaker 2: take on that? 437 00:21:32,384 --> 00:21:35,624 Speaker 4: Look, I think Jake Tapper has said and others have 438 00:21:35,744 --> 00:21:38,304 Speaker 4: said that, Look, the media has some answering to do 439 00:21:38,544 --> 00:21:42,464 Speaker 4: about that, about why we missed what was obviously evidence 440 00:21:42,504 --> 00:21:46,304 Speaker 4: of cognitive decline and why we allowed or didn't make 441 00:21:46,304 --> 00:21:48,944 Speaker 4: a bigger fuss about the fact that the President wasn't 442 00:21:48,944 --> 00:21:51,864 Speaker 4: doing interviews. I mean, we of course reported on that 443 00:21:51,904 --> 00:21:54,504 Speaker 4: and took note of it. And then my personal experience 444 00:21:54,504 --> 00:21:57,424 Speaker 4: with this story was when Rob Herr issued the Special 445 00:21:57,504 --> 00:22:00,664 Speaker 4: Council report and talked about well meaning a literly man 446 00:22:00,704 --> 00:22:03,664 Speaker 4: with a poor memory. I reported on that, and the 447 00:22:03,824 --> 00:22:07,664 Speaker 4: pushback from the White House was intense. And then when 448 00:22:08,104 --> 00:22:10,544 Speaker 4: I actually was the first to write the story that 449 00:22:10,704 --> 00:22:13,584 Speaker 4: remember when Joe Biden right after that complained that Rob 450 00:22:13,664 --> 00:22:15,944 Speaker 4: her brought up his dead son, and how I dare he? 451 00:22:16,344 --> 00:22:17,984 Speaker 4: What is this guy doing bring up my dead son? 452 00:22:17,984 --> 00:22:20,584 Speaker 4: And I immediately was able to figure out that's not 453 00:22:20,744 --> 00:22:23,384 Speaker 4: what happened. Actually, Joe Biden brought up his dead son. 454 00:22:23,944 --> 00:22:26,784 Speaker 4: And even though they knew the transcript eventually would be out, 455 00:22:26,864 --> 00:22:30,184 Speaker 4: White House officials just simply lied about that. And I 456 00:22:30,304 --> 00:22:33,584 Speaker 4: use that word not it's not an insignificant word to use. 457 00:22:33,664 --> 00:22:35,904 Speaker 4: And they just were not on the level and they 458 00:22:35,984 --> 00:22:38,624 Speaker 4: put they pushed back. They just wanted to win the day, 459 00:22:38,704 --> 00:22:40,784 Speaker 4: win the news cycle, even knowing that they would be 460 00:22:40,864 --> 00:22:43,264 Speaker 4: exposed later. And then recently when the audio of that 461 00:22:43,264 --> 00:22:45,864 Speaker 4: interview came out, it was even worse. So yeah, there 462 00:22:45,944 --> 00:22:48,504 Speaker 4: was a I don't know if different authors have had 463 00:22:48,544 --> 00:22:51,024 Speaker 4: different takes on this. Chris Whipple wrote a book and 464 00:22:51,144 --> 00:22:53,344 Speaker 4: his conclusion was it wasn't a cover up, it was 465 00:22:53,464 --> 00:22:56,344 Speaker 4: wilful blindness. People you had good days and bad days, 466 00:22:56,384 --> 00:22:59,664 Speaker 4: and people around him really believed he was effective to function. 467 00:22:59,744 --> 00:23:02,584 Speaker 4: I think Jake Tapper's book leans more into some people 468 00:23:02,624 --> 00:23:05,624 Speaker 4: covered some stuff up. I don't know what the ultimate 469 00:23:05,664 --> 00:23:08,544 Speaker 4: answer is there, but it clearly now people are coming 470 00:23:08,544 --> 00:23:11,224 Speaker 4: to grips with the fact that had Biden gotten out 471 00:23:11,704 --> 00:23:13,664 Speaker 4: and he served one term as he said he was 472 00:23:13,704 --> 00:23:15,584 Speaker 4: going to do at one point, and there was a 473 00:23:15,624 --> 00:23:19,024 Speaker 4: normal primary, maybe the world would be much different today. 474 00:23:19,144 --> 00:23:21,824 Speaker 2: Those of us who've taken history and political science courses 475 00:23:22,144 --> 00:23:24,144 Speaker 2: in the lead up to our president jobs understand that 476 00:23:24,264 --> 00:23:26,184 Speaker 2: one of the key jobs, maybe the key job of 477 00:23:26,184 --> 00:23:29,064 Speaker 2: a president, is to communicate, to explain to the people 478 00:23:29,064 --> 00:23:31,144 Speaker 2: what he's doing, why they're doing it. And as we 479 00:23:31,224 --> 00:23:34,304 Speaker 2: led up to this election, if the economy was doing well, 480 00:23:34,344 --> 00:23:36,304 Speaker 2: and if he did have policies who were helping the 481 00:23:36,344 --> 00:23:38,904 Speaker 2: average worker, and in red states and these other places, 482 00:23:39,064 --> 00:23:41,784 Speaker 2: they did a really poor job of communicating to the 483 00:23:41,824 --> 00:23:44,904 Speaker 2: public what was going on. So I really hold them 484 00:23:45,184 --> 00:23:49,224 Speaker 2: responsible for their failure or his failure to communicate effectively, 485 00:23:49,264 --> 00:23:51,904 Speaker 2: and the people around him to get him to communicate effectively, 486 00:23:51,944 --> 00:23:54,264 Speaker 2: and if he couldn't so, then perhaps call it out. 487 00:23:54,304 --> 00:23:56,464 Speaker 2: I still think he's a million times better than Trump, 488 00:23:56,464 --> 00:23:59,464 Speaker 2: But nonetheless, if we're going to be honest brokers here, 489 00:23:59,464 --> 00:24:01,864 Speaker 2: we have to explain where we think people are going wrong, 490 00:24:02,104 --> 00:24:03,944 Speaker 2: and you and the media have to do that too, 491 00:24:03,984 --> 00:24:05,824 Speaker 2: even though you get attacked from both sides. 492 00:24:06,024 --> 00:24:08,624 Speaker 4: I agree, and the polls show that the public was 493 00:24:08,704 --> 00:24:11,864 Speaker 4: way ahead of us, the media or whoever, the elites 494 00:24:12,224 --> 00:24:14,784 Speaker 4: they thought he was too old from jump seventy percent 495 00:24:15,264 --> 00:24:17,744 Speaker 4: at one point, and so I don't know why more 496 00:24:17,744 --> 00:24:20,384 Speaker 4: people didn't listen to that, but that signal was certainly there. 497 00:24:20,704 --> 00:24:24,344 Speaker 3: You have a long history of watching, of following national security. 498 00:24:24,824 --> 00:24:29,584 Speaker 3: Now have you seen since WMD in Rock have you 499 00:24:29,744 --> 00:24:33,904 Speaker 3: seen anything at all what happened with the assessment over 500 00:24:34,344 --> 00:24:38,664 Speaker 3: Venezuela where the intelligence community comes out and says that 501 00:24:38,704 --> 00:24:44,263 Speaker 3: there is no or almost no evidence of control by 502 00:24:44,264 --> 00:24:47,864 Speaker 3: the Venezuelan government of these criminal gangs and it's not 503 00:24:47,944 --> 00:24:50,744 Speaker 3: an invasion. And then you've got the number two with 504 00:24:50,824 --> 00:24:55,264 Speaker 3: the DNI saying basically, change this. The president doesn't like this. 505 00:24:55,264 --> 00:24:57,944 Speaker 3: This is politicization we haven't seen since the Iraq War, 506 00:24:57,984 --> 00:25:00,424 Speaker 3: and of course that didn't go real well for us 507 00:25:00,424 --> 00:25:03,064 Speaker 3: when we got politicized. So what's your sense on that. 508 00:25:03,464 --> 00:25:05,904 Speaker 4: I agree with you one hundred percent, and I think 509 00:25:05,904 --> 00:25:09,624 Speaker 4: but I think it speaks really it was comforting and 510 00:25:09,664 --> 00:25:11,984 Speaker 4: it speaks well for the intelligence community that they didn't 511 00:25:12,064 --> 00:25:14,704 Speaker 4: change a thing, like, they didn't buckle under that pressure. 512 00:25:14,784 --> 00:25:19,264 Speaker 4: They got fired, that's true, and so what will happen 513 00:25:19,304 --> 00:25:21,824 Speaker 4: the next time? That's a fair point. But the analysts 514 00:25:21,824 --> 00:25:24,864 Speaker 4: who produced the underlying work presumably didn't get fired. You 515 00:25:24,904 --> 00:25:27,104 Speaker 4: can't fire them all. I don't know. Again, I'm not 516 00:25:27,144 --> 00:25:30,264 Speaker 4: covering the intelligence community as intensely right now, but I'm 517 00:25:30,344 --> 00:25:32,744 Speaker 4: told that there's been less of that the kind of 518 00:25:32,784 --> 00:25:35,904 Speaker 4: purges that we're seeing at FBI and DJ. It's harder 519 00:25:35,944 --> 00:25:37,864 Speaker 4: to do that at the CIA. In d and I, 520 00:25:37,904 --> 00:25:41,384 Speaker 4: We'll see. It's just very it's very scary. 521 00:25:41,584 --> 00:25:43,664 Speaker 3: But was this a conspiray? I mean, did Joe Kent? 522 00:25:43,904 --> 00:25:46,904 Speaker 3: Just is it it like they just know the White 523 00:25:46,904 --> 00:25:50,464 Speaker 3: House wouldn't like it? Or are they not writing anything down? 524 00:25:50,504 --> 00:25:52,864 Speaker 3: Are they getting on a phone call and saying, is 525 00:25:52,864 --> 00:25:56,344 Speaker 3: it you know somebody Steven Miller saying, you know, kill this. 526 00:25:56,344 --> 00:25:58,784 Speaker 3: This is a conspiracy, I want you to do this. 527 00:25:59,224 --> 00:26:01,664 Speaker 3: And Joe Kent was just the one caught writing the note. 528 00:26:02,024 --> 00:26:04,424 Speaker 3: How much of a conspiracy is this or do they 529 00:26:04,464 --> 00:26:04,744 Speaker 3: just know? 530 00:26:05,024 --> 00:26:07,784 Speaker 4: I just remember, in the first term, it was well 531 00:26:07,824 --> 00:26:11,544 Speaker 4: known that you don't bring up Russia or things related 532 00:26:11,544 --> 00:26:14,424 Speaker 4: to Russia and intel briefings, because then the boss would 533 00:26:14,424 --> 00:26:16,624 Speaker 4: go in a bad direction. And so it's there are 534 00:26:16,624 --> 00:26:19,024 Speaker 4: a lot of things around Trump that people around him 535 00:26:19,064 --> 00:26:21,384 Speaker 4: just know that this is what he wants, this is 536 00:26:21,424 --> 00:26:23,664 Speaker 4: the smart thing to do. So it would not surprise 537 00:26:23,704 --> 00:26:25,984 Speaker 4: me at all if it was just like him or 538 00:26:26,024 --> 00:26:28,504 Speaker 4: someone else taking the initiative and saying, let's take another 539 00:26:28,504 --> 00:26:28,904 Speaker 4: look at that. 540 00:26:29,064 --> 00:26:31,064 Speaker 2: So one thing you are having to work on a 541 00:26:31,104 --> 00:26:32,744 Speaker 2: lot now is you look at justice point is the 542 00:26:32,784 --> 00:26:36,384 Speaker 2: issue of immigration? What are you learning now? I do 543 00:26:36,424 --> 00:26:38,704 Speaker 2: think it's true at the beginning of the Biden administration 544 00:26:39,264 --> 00:26:41,424 Speaker 2: he did send signals that brought a lot of immigrants 545 00:26:41,544 --> 00:26:44,384 Speaker 2: to our shores, or legal immigrants. But I also see 546 00:26:44,424 --> 00:26:46,944 Speaker 2: these stories that in the last year there's probably more 547 00:26:47,464 --> 00:26:50,064 Speaker 2: illegal immigrants that were pushed out by the Bide administration 548 00:26:50,144 --> 00:26:52,904 Speaker 2: than there have been by the Trump administration. Despite all 549 00:26:52,944 --> 00:26:55,104 Speaker 2: the stories and the sort of cruelty, we see, what's 550 00:26:55,144 --> 00:26:57,024 Speaker 2: the truth there? What are you learning about the whole 551 00:26:57,064 --> 00:27:00,504 Speaker 2: issue of border protection and immigration and illegal immigration? 552 00:27:00,864 --> 00:27:03,384 Speaker 4: Again, this is I'm not the expert on this. Someone 553 00:27:03,424 --> 00:27:05,704 Speaker 4: else covers this for us, but I watch it closely 554 00:27:05,824 --> 00:27:07,704 Speaker 4: and I think The story of the Biden administration was, 555 00:27:07,744 --> 00:27:10,584 Speaker 4: as you said, wide open doors in the beginning. Then 556 00:27:10,624 --> 00:27:14,384 Speaker 4: they realized this is a problem. They started slowly closing 557 00:27:14,424 --> 00:27:17,344 Speaker 4: the doors, and by the end there was very little movement. 558 00:27:17,384 --> 00:27:20,064 Speaker 4: But they didn't tell that story effectively again going back 559 00:27:20,064 --> 00:27:23,544 Speaker 4: to communication, in part because some of their base, you know, 560 00:27:23,704 --> 00:27:25,144 Speaker 4: it was not a good story that for some of 561 00:27:25,184 --> 00:27:27,184 Speaker 4: their race, and they didn't agree with that policy, but 562 00:27:27,224 --> 00:27:29,584 Speaker 4: they certainly didn't weren't able to communicate to the public 563 00:27:29,624 --> 00:27:32,064 Speaker 4: that hey, by the way, we've shut the door. This 564 00:27:32,224 --> 00:27:35,344 Speaker 4: is not the first two years. But Trump has done things. 565 00:27:35,464 --> 00:27:37,984 Speaker 4: Trump has taken it much further, obviously, and border crossings 566 00:27:38,024 --> 00:27:41,184 Speaker 4: are almost non existent now. But it was interesting. I 567 00:27:41,184 --> 00:27:43,184 Speaker 4: actually did some I had to do some live shots 568 00:27:43,184 --> 00:27:46,864 Speaker 4: today on this immigration issue because they've there were some 569 00:27:47,024 --> 00:27:50,784 Speaker 4: people removed from their jobs inside of because the White 570 00:27:50,784 --> 00:27:54,264 Speaker 4: House is frustrated with the pace of deportations, and it 571 00:27:54,304 --> 00:27:57,424 Speaker 4: turns out it's hard to deport people. Like the promise 572 00:27:57,464 --> 00:28:00,584 Speaker 4: of mass deportations, that's really hard to do. So, like 573 00:28:00,904 --> 00:28:04,023 Speaker 4: if there are ten million undocumented immigrants in this country. 574 00:28:04,304 --> 00:28:06,824 Speaker 4: I think the Trump administration said in April they had 575 00:28:06,824 --> 00:28:09,104 Speaker 4: removed one hundred and forty thousand. That's a drop in 576 00:28:09,104 --> 00:28:12,344 Speaker 4: the bucket. Right last fall, there were documents that showed 577 00:28:12,344 --> 00:28:16,064 Speaker 4: there were four hundred thousand undocumented immigrants with criminal convictions, 578 00:28:16,104 --> 00:28:20,304 Speaker 4: including twenty nine thousand felony convictions. Most of those people 579 00:28:20,344 --> 00:28:24,144 Speaker 4: are still here because they're hard to find. It's manpower intensive. 580 00:28:24,144 --> 00:28:25,504 Speaker 4: You have to have a strike force, you have to 581 00:28:25,704 --> 00:28:28,104 Speaker 4: arm people to go out, especially the day, and that's 582 00:28:28,144 --> 00:28:31,064 Speaker 4: why they've ordered the FBI to spend like thirty percent 583 00:28:31,064 --> 00:28:34,784 Speaker 4: of their time working on immigration matters, which is very 584 00:28:34,824 --> 00:28:36,624 Speaker 4: frustrating for a lot of FBI people I talked to, 585 00:28:36,664 --> 00:28:39,744 Speaker 4: and it's probably taking resources away from counter terrorism and 586 00:28:39,784 --> 00:28:43,824 Speaker 4: counter espionage because they can't deliver on their promise to 587 00:28:43,824 --> 00:28:46,264 Speaker 4: deport all these people unless they The only way really 588 00:28:46,264 --> 00:28:48,744 Speaker 4: they could do it is to start having mass workplace rates, 589 00:28:48,784 --> 00:28:51,344 Speaker 4: really just showing up and vacuuting people up, and that 590 00:28:51,384 --> 00:28:53,624 Speaker 4: would cause a lot of problems for the economy, It 591 00:28:53,624 --> 00:28:57,504 Speaker 4: would cause maybe the general public would not be appreciative 592 00:28:57,504 --> 00:28:57,744 Speaker 4: of that. 593 00:28:58,024 --> 00:29:02,184 Speaker 3: So we've got this court now, and surprisingly Cony Baird 594 00:29:02,224 --> 00:29:05,744 Speaker 3: and Kevinaugh are surprising a lot of people. And this 595 00:29:06,504 --> 00:29:10,184 Speaker 3: is the last pastion and case after k ends up 596 00:29:10,224 --> 00:29:13,984 Speaker 3: in the Supreme Court. What's your sense on the court's 597 00:29:14,024 --> 00:29:17,464 Speaker 3: makeup and where its limits are and how it can 598 00:29:17,504 --> 00:29:21,504 Speaker 3: be pressured, if anything, that's the last barrier right, and 599 00:29:21,544 --> 00:29:24,424 Speaker 3: what happens if and when it comes to Trump defying 600 00:29:24,464 --> 00:29:25,264 Speaker 3: the Supreme Court. 601 00:29:25,664 --> 00:29:27,624 Speaker 4: I probably can give you the conventional wisdom on this, 602 00:29:27,664 --> 00:29:30,384 Speaker 4: which is, as you said, it's pretty clear that Cony, 603 00:29:30,384 --> 00:29:33,944 Speaker 4: Barrett and Kavanaugh on a lot of these issues are 604 00:29:33,984 --> 00:29:36,384 Speaker 4: not sympathetic to what the Trump administration is trying to do, 605 00:29:36,424 --> 00:29:37,544 Speaker 4: and so a lot of people think it'll be a 606 00:29:37,544 --> 00:29:40,264 Speaker 4: lot of seven to cases. What we're seeing in the 607 00:29:40,264 --> 00:29:43,264 Speaker 4: lower courts is that the Trump administration is getting it's 608 00:29:43,344 --> 00:29:46,824 Speaker 4: claw cleaned on everything from Harvard to the law firms 609 00:29:46,824 --> 00:29:50,304 Speaker 4: to immigration cases. It's starting the losses are really starting 610 00:29:50,344 --> 00:29:52,904 Speaker 4: out up at The Administration's answer to that is this 611 00:29:52,944 --> 00:29:56,104 Speaker 4: is a judicial coup. These horrible judges are standing in 612 00:29:56,144 --> 00:29:59,024 Speaker 4: the way of democracy, which is really scary rhetoric and 613 00:29:59,584 --> 00:30:01,704 Speaker 4: Rais's questions about at what point will they try to 614 00:30:01,744 --> 00:30:04,664 Speaker 4: defy court order? The main bulwark against a lot of 615 00:30:04,704 --> 00:30:06,704 Speaker 4: the things that the Trump administration has tried to do 616 00:30:06,744 --> 00:30:10,544 Speaker 4: that many people think is illegal and on constitution, and 617 00:30:10,704 --> 00:30:13,344 Speaker 4: it remains to be seen how many of these are 618 00:30:13,344 --> 00:30:15,624 Speaker 4: going to win in the Supreme Court. But what we've 619 00:30:15,624 --> 00:30:18,064 Speaker 4: seen so far is that again seven to two seems 620 00:30:18,104 --> 00:30:19,584 Speaker 4: like a smart a smart bet. 621 00:30:19,664 --> 00:30:21,144 Speaker 2: Let me go back to something I do know. You 622 00:30:21,264 --> 00:30:22,664 Speaker 2: did a lot of work out. You spend a number 623 00:30:22,664 --> 00:30:25,784 Speaker 2: of years reporting on the intelligence community and CIA, of 624 00:30:25,944 --> 00:30:28,384 Speaker 2: just you know your experience from that. What do you 625 00:30:28,464 --> 00:30:31,864 Speaker 2: take away from what you learned about the intelligence community? 626 00:30:32,184 --> 00:30:33,624 Speaker 2: And you can give us some good stuff and some 627 00:30:33,664 --> 00:30:35,264 Speaker 2: bad stuff, or if you don't have any good stuff, 628 00:30:35,264 --> 00:30:35,984 Speaker 2: just the bad stuff. 629 00:30:36,184 --> 00:30:38,864 Speaker 4: No, it's both, of course, it's both. Like what I learned, 630 00:30:38,944 --> 00:30:42,464 Speaker 4: it was fascinating, And the CIA used to come into 631 00:30:42,464 --> 00:30:44,784 Speaker 4: this fresh having read all the books and watched the movies, 632 00:30:44,824 --> 00:30:47,184 Speaker 4: and there's a mystique about the CIA, and the CIA 633 00:30:47,224 --> 00:30:50,024 Speaker 4: did incredible things, and particularly after nine to eleven. So 634 00:30:50,144 --> 00:30:52,904 Speaker 4: that was fascinating to meet people like you, John and Mark, 635 00:30:52,984 --> 00:30:55,464 Speaker 4: Polly Moroblis and you Jerry. I mean, just like the 636 00:30:55,544 --> 00:30:59,224 Speaker 4: intelligence comunity is full of quiet heroes, and I've been 637 00:30:59,264 --> 00:31:02,584 Speaker 4: really fast and privileged to meet people and hear their stories. 638 00:31:02,784 --> 00:31:04,544 Speaker 4: And then on the other side you realize in some 639 00:31:04,544 --> 00:31:07,584 Speaker 4: ways the CIA is also another government bureaucracy like the 640 00:31:07,584 --> 00:31:10,664 Speaker 4: Agriculture Department, and you have people who complain about the 641 00:31:10,704 --> 00:31:13,104 Speaker 4: pace of things and write books about how they they 642 00:31:13,104 --> 00:31:16,264 Speaker 4: weren't able to do the intelligent collection that they wanted 643 00:31:16,264 --> 00:31:18,104 Speaker 4: to do when they were a knock in Europe or whatever. 644 00:31:18,624 --> 00:31:21,064 Speaker 4: Or for example, I did a story many years ago 645 00:31:21,104 --> 00:31:24,264 Speaker 4: about when I actually under their Freedom of Information Act, 646 00:31:24,264 --> 00:31:26,464 Speaker 4: I got a bunch of Inspector General reports that talked 647 00:31:26,464 --> 00:31:30,304 Speaker 4: about the management culture of the CIA being bad and 648 00:31:30,384 --> 00:31:33,144 Speaker 4: there was no training for managers and people were elevated 649 00:31:33,144 --> 00:31:36,024 Speaker 4: who had no business being managers. And then you know, 650 00:31:36,064 --> 00:31:37,904 Speaker 4: a survey actually that showed that a lot of people 651 00:31:37,904 --> 00:31:39,864 Speaker 4: were leaving because of bad management. And I heard that 652 00:31:39,904 --> 00:31:42,104 Speaker 4: story over and over again, people saying, this is a 653 00:31:42,104 --> 00:31:45,424 Speaker 4: great place, but like, I can't advance here. I feel 654 00:31:45,464 --> 00:31:48,424 Speaker 4: that my manager is terrible, so I'm leaving. And then 655 00:31:48,424 --> 00:31:50,704 Speaker 4: of course there was the post nine to eleven debate 656 00:31:50,744 --> 00:31:53,864 Speaker 4: about the interrogation issues and the black sites and stuff, 657 00:31:53,904 --> 00:31:56,744 Speaker 4: and I was so interesting to cover the evolution of that, 658 00:31:56,944 --> 00:31:59,144 Speaker 4: which is amazing that it's still being litigated in the 659 00:31:59,144 --> 00:32:02,344 Speaker 4: Guantanamo cases. Well, let me ask you this, though, what's 660 00:32:02,344 --> 00:32:04,704 Speaker 4: your take on how are millennials Because you know, I 661 00:32:04,744 --> 00:32:06,704 Speaker 4: haven't really come to the CIA closely for a number 662 00:32:06,704 --> 00:32:10,704 Speaker 4: of years. Now, how are the younger generation getting integrating 663 00:32:10,744 --> 00:32:14,344 Speaker 4: themselves into that bureaucratic structure. Are they thriving? Are they 664 00:32:14,504 --> 00:32:15,384 Speaker 4: changing the place? 665 00:32:15,744 --> 00:32:17,984 Speaker 3: Sort of? I think two things. One is, when we 666 00:32:18,024 --> 00:32:21,064 Speaker 3: went in, I think you saw it as a calling, right, 667 00:32:21,144 --> 00:32:23,704 Speaker 3: it was like it's like you're a policeman or a priest. 668 00:32:24,224 --> 00:32:26,704 Speaker 3: It's like it's something you do your whole life. And 669 00:32:26,744 --> 00:32:29,224 Speaker 3: I think younger people and which is Nael like I'll 670 00:32:29,264 --> 00:32:30,824 Speaker 3: come in and do this for two or three years 671 00:32:30,824 --> 00:32:33,064 Speaker 3: and then get out. And I don't think we thought 672 00:32:33,064 --> 00:32:35,984 Speaker 3: they were. But to be a good case officer, you 673 00:32:36,024 --> 00:32:38,144 Speaker 3: can't do it in three years. I mean it takes 674 00:32:38,184 --> 00:32:41,944 Speaker 3: ten to twelve years sometimes until you really understand enough 675 00:32:41,984 --> 00:32:44,344 Speaker 3: to be able to run a small station or something 676 00:32:44,384 --> 00:32:47,504 Speaker 3: like that. And the other thing is, whereas John and 677 00:32:47,504 --> 00:32:49,744 Speaker 3: I came from the Stone Age, I mean we actually 678 00:32:49,904 --> 00:32:52,344 Speaker 3: entered the agency before they had computers. They were just 679 00:32:53,104 --> 00:32:59,704 Speaker 3: phasing out electric typewriters. But today separating anybody under the 680 00:32:59,744 --> 00:33:03,304 Speaker 3: age of thirty from their telephone is almost impossible. And 681 00:33:03,344 --> 00:33:06,384 Speaker 3: yet it's a death threat for us because it records 682 00:33:06,384 --> 00:33:08,824 Speaker 3: where you are, what you do, who you talked with. 683 00:33:09,144 --> 00:33:12,824 Speaker 3: So how you socialize and how you interact with the 684 00:33:12,864 --> 00:33:16,464 Speaker 3: world without one of those devices is really difficult for 685 00:33:16,544 --> 00:33:19,344 Speaker 3: people under thirty, but pretty easy for John and I. 686 00:33:19,344 --> 00:33:21,984 Speaker 2: I can remember talking to sort of older guys, you know, 687 00:33:22,064 --> 00:33:24,024 Speaker 2: when we were still in and they left. They were like, oh, 688 00:33:24,064 --> 00:33:25,584 Speaker 2: it's not the same as it was, and I'm like, 689 00:33:25,744 --> 00:33:27,944 Speaker 2: my god, we're doing amazing things. So I always said 690 00:33:27,944 --> 00:33:29,744 Speaker 2: to myself when I leave, I'm not going to be 691 00:33:29,784 --> 00:33:31,744 Speaker 2: that way talking about how bad it is now and 692 00:33:31,784 --> 00:33:34,664 Speaker 2: how they don't do it. And so I'm sure there's still, 693 00:33:34,664 --> 00:33:36,664 Speaker 2: you know, incredible work being done here. But the one 694 00:33:36,704 --> 00:33:38,384 Speaker 2: bitch I do here when I talk to people who 695 00:33:38,424 --> 00:33:41,824 Speaker 2: are still in sort of senior people running management overseas, 696 00:33:41,944 --> 00:33:44,424 Speaker 2: is like to get people to go out and do 697 00:33:44,584 --> 00:33:46,624 Speaker 2: the work overseas. It's hard, Like they all want to 698 00:33:46,624 --> 00:33:48,464 Speaker 2: be on the computer. It's like you need to go 699 00:33:48,544 --> 00:33:50,824 Speaker 2: out and actually meet physical people, and they're. 700 00:33:50,624 --> 00:33:52,824 Speaker 4: Like, tell us send an email. 701 00:33:53,184 --> 00:33:56,304 Speaker 3: So I was in Iraq, for example, and I got 702 00:33:56,344 --> 00:34:03,304 Speaker 3: to tell the young people who were there they were committed, idealistic, often, 703 00:34:03,504 --> 00:34:06,024 Speaker 3: if not the majority of them were giving up jobs. 704 00:34:06,144 --> 00:34:08,544 Speaker 3: They came out of great schools with great prospects. They 705 00:34:08,584 --> 00:34:10,464 Speaker 3: gave up jobs where they can be earning two or 706 00:34:10,464 --> 00:34:13,863 Speaker 3: three times as much to serve in Bagdad and take 707 00:34:13,984 --> 00:34:16,904 Speaker 3: huge risks and be away from their family. And I 708 00:34:16,984 --> 00:34:20,784 Speaker 3: got to say, I think every generation of CIOs, not all, 709 00:34:21,344 --> 00:34:25,383 Speaker 3: but probably the majority, really go in because they want 710 00:34:25,384 --> 00:34:28,104 Speaker 3: to serve, and they believe in what they're doing, and 711 00:34:28,143 --> 00:34:30,743 Speaker 3: they understand the agency has issues warts and all, but 712 00:34:30,783 --> 00:34:32,623 Speaker 3: at the end of the day, they really want to 713 00:34:32,663 --> 00:34:35,464 Speaker 3: be part of something that they hope is mostly a 714 00:34:35,504 --> 00:34:42,384 Speaker 3: force for good. And I think that's still the same today. 715 00:34:53,864 --> 00:34:56,744 Speaker 4: I've noticed in the Trump era is just a greater 716 00:34:56,864 --> 00:35:01,424 Speaker 4: concern from our lawyers about, for example, the idea of 717 00:35:01,824 --> 00:35:03,823 Speaker 4: are the are these going to be the first? Is 718 00:35:03,824 --> 00:35:06,183 Speaker 4: this gonna be the first administration to prosecute a journalist 719 00:35:06,223 --> 00:35:08,623 Speaker 4: under the Espionage Act, Because as you guys know, that's 720 00:35:08,663 --> 00:35:10,584 Speaker 4: always been out there there. It's a threat the laws 721 00:35:10,623 --> 00:35:13,343 Speaker 4: written as it's illegal to publish classified information. And the 722 00:35:13,344 --> 00:35:15,904 Speaker 4: Bush administration they considered it and they said, we're not 723 00:35:15,984 --> 00:35:18,623 Speaker 4: doing this. That's a worry, And so that's something new 724 00:35:18,663 --> 00:35:21,984 Speaker 4: that you don't even worry about that in previous administrations. 725 00:35:22,223 --> 00:35:26,504 Speaker 4: There's guidelines, for example, about subpoenaing journalist records, and Merrik 726 00:35:26,544 --> 00:35:29,504 Speaker 4: Garland basically said we're not doing that, and they just 727 00:35:29,623 --> 00:35:32,503 Speaker 4: you know, Pambodi repealed those guidelines. Those are the things 728 00:35:32,783 --> 00:35:33,184 Speaker 4: I worry. 729 00:35:33,223 --> 00:35:36,823 Speaker 2: I think that's a real threat. I think they're I 730 00:35:36,824 --> 00:35:38,783 Speaker 2: think they believe that a lot of the public doesn't 731 00:35:38,783 --> 00:35:41,143 Speaker 2: follow understand these things, and if they're told that the 732 00:35:41,183 --> 00:35:44,183 Speaker 2: media is doing something wrong, and large enough portion of 733 00:35:44,223 --> 00:35:45,504 Speaker 2: the population will believe that. 734 00:35:45,743 --> 00:35:49,223 Speaker 3: What's a journalist these days? Is a podcast journalist? Is 735 00:35:49,263 --> 00:35:53,783 Speaker 3: Tim Poole a journalist? Is arguably snowed and right he 736 00:35:53,864 --> 00:35:57,584 Speaker 3: goes online? Is he a journalist? You obviously are, But 737 00:35:57,984 --> 00:35:59,183 Speaker 3: what's a journalist? Now? 738 00:35:59,384 --> 00:36:01,504 Speaker 4: That's an old question, This dilemma has been with us 739 00:36:01,504 --> 00:36:03,223 Speaker 4: for a long time, but it's really You're right, it's 740 00:36:03,304 --> 00:36:05,864 Speaker 4: really pronounced and more exacerbated in the age of the 741 00:36:05,904 --> 00:36:08,783 Speaker 4: podcast and sub stack. And look, my kids, I don't 742 00:36:08,824 --> 00:36:10,783 Speaker 4: think my kids can answer what a journalist is. They're 743 00:36:10,783 --> 00:36:14,343 Speaker 4: constantly they're getting bombarded with information they don't know the 744 00:36:14,384 --> 00:36:17,623 Speaker 4: source of it. The videos on TikTok, who made that? 745 00:36:17,703 --> 00:36:18,703 Speaker 4: Is that person credible? 746 00:36:19,024 --> 00:36:19,223 Speaker 6: Look? 747 00:36:19,263 --> 00:36:21,104 Speaker 4: All I can say is like the journalism and I 748 00:36:21,263 --> 00:36:25,424 Speaker 4: practice before we say something before we report something, it 749 00:36:25,464 --> 00:36:29,784 Speaker 4: goes through layers of vetting, not just editors and senior executives. 750 00:36:29,783 --> 00:36:32,384 Speaker 4: But then we have a standards department because back in 751 00:36:32,464 --> 00:36:35,584 Speaker 4: nineteen ninety six there was a scandal where Dateline put 752 00:36:35,584 --> 00:36:37,903 Speaker 4: a bomb on a gas tank because they were trying 753 00:36:37,904 --> 00:36:39,783 Speaker 4: to show that the gas tank blew up and they 754 00:36:40,024 --> 00:36:42,383 Speaker 4: gave it a little help. President of NBC lost their job. 755 00:36:42,464 --> 00:36:45,024 Speaker 4: So ever since, it's been a very robust standards operation. 756 00:36:45,424 --> 00:36:49,144 Speaker 4: Lawyers look at it, and that's true of most mainstream 757 00:36:49,304 --> 00:36:51,663 Speaker 4: news organizations, and it's not true of Joe Rogan, right, 758 00:36:51,703 --> 00:36:53,984 Speaker 4: it's not true of some people on Substack. 759 00:36:54,064 --> 00:36:56,384 Speaker 3: We don't do it on this podcast either, because we 760 00:36:56,464 --> 00:36:57,544 Speaker 3: just say whatever the hell we want. 761 00:36:57,663 --> 00:36:59,863 Speaker 4: But you could your self censor because you're not going 762 00:36:59,944 --> 00:37:02,064 Speaker 4: to slander someone like you know, there's certain things you 763 00:37:02,064 --> 00:37:06,223 Speaker 4: wouldn't say that. But that's not really a satisfactory answer. 764 00:37:06,464 --> 00:37:09,064 Speaker 4: But that is one way to separate what is a 765 00:37:09,104 --> 00:37:11,823 Speaker 4: traditional journalist from this new kind of thing is like, 766 00:37:12,783 --> 00:37:15,623 Speaker 4: how is the information at it? What's the reporting process? 767 00:37:15,783 --> 00:37:20,064 Speaker 3: So every administration can be some of its character can 768 00:37:20,104 --> 00:37:22,703 Speaker 3: be judged by like the jokes they tell about it. 769 00:37:22,703 --> 00:37:24,783 Speaker 3: So I don't know if you've heard any Trump two 770 00:37:24,783 --> 00:37:27,343 Speaker 3: point zero jokes or anything. But I've been looking at 771 00:37:27,384 --> 00:37:29,984 Speaker 3: I haven't seen any good ones. Was like, how do 772 00:37:30,064 --> 00:37:32,383 Speaker 3: you get Trump to change a light bulb? Tell them? 773 00:37:32,464 --> 00:37:33,384 Speaker 1: Joe Biden put it in. 774 00:37:35,504 --> 00:37:39,343 Speaker 2: Well, I can I apologize for Jerry's stupid joke. I 775 00:37:39,384 --> 00:37:41,623 Speaker 2: do want to thank you. I don't want to keep 776 00:37:41,663 --> 00:37:43,183 Speaker 2: you too long. You have important work to do, and 777 00:37:43,223 --> 00:37:44,584 Speaker 2: you want to thank you for what you're doing. I 778 00:37:44,623 --> 00:37:46,303 Speaker 2: hope you keep it up. It's a tough time to 779 00:37:46,344 --> 00:37:48,584 Speaker 2: be a journalist, and I thank so much for spending 780 00:37:48,584 --> 00:37:49,104 Speaker 2: time with us. 781 00:37:49,544 --> 00:37:52,143 Speaker 4: It's been my privilege. John and Jerry, thanks so much. 782 00:37:56,663 --> 00:38:01,663 Speaker 1: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Cipher, 783 00:38:02,024 --> 00:38:06,424 Speaker 1: and Jonathan Stern. The associate producer is Rachel Harner. Mission 784 00:38:06,424 --> 00:38:09,863 Speaker 1: Implausible it's a production of Honorable Mention and a Bobble 785 00:38:09,944 --> 00:38:11,903 Speaker 1: Pictures for iHeart Podcasts.