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Speaker 1: This is Kelly Henderson and you are listening to the

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Speaker 1: Velvet Edge podcast. My guest this week is Dr Keith Campbell,

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Speaker 1: who is a nationally recognized expert on narcissism. His working

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Speaker 1: lectures expose the rise of narcissism and it's everyday influence

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Speaker 1: on every level of society. His new book, The New

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Speaker 1: Science of Narcissism talks about the new spectrum that researchers

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Speaker 1: are using to now measure narcissism, saying that just because

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Speaker 1: you have traits, it doesn't mean you are a full

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Speaker 1: blown narcissist. So we talked through the overuse of the

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Speaker 1: word as a description for things like ex boyfriends or

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Speaker 1: coworkers who are selfish or jerks. Maybe, but they're not

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Speaker 1: full blown narcissists. So what is that versus what are

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Speaker 1: traits that are actually narcissism and even what parts of

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Speaker 1: narcissism may actually help you in our culture. It turns

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Speaker 1: out we all fall somewhere on the scale, and we

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Speaker 1: broke down the role of things like celebrities, social media,

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Speaker 1: and even reality TV play in the rise of narcissism.

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Speaker 1: In a mirror, uh, here's our conversation. Okay, So I've

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Speaker 1: found you because I don't remember exactly what I was reading,

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Speaker 1: but there was an article talking about the overuse of

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Speaker 1: the word narcissism now and how you know, in our culture,

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Speaker 1: we're kind of like, I have this tendency to be like, oh,

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Speaker 1: my ex is such a narcissist. You know, I've had

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Speaker 1: this tendency to just associate the people I've dated in

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Speaker 1: the past with narcissists, and while they may be, what

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Speaker 1: I found so fascinating with what you're saying is that

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Speaker 1: there's a spectrum out there, and so I want to

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Speaker 1: kind of talk a little bit about that today and

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Speaker 1: just kind of our society's association with the word narcissism.

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Speaker 1: But could you start with just giving everyone kind of

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Speaker 1: a grand scale definition of the word narcissism. Yeah, for sure, um,

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Speaker 1: And I said, what you're telling me is something I've

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Speaker 1: I've heard, you know, from other people as well, and

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Speaker 1: it's the idea that we use the terminal narcissism and

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Speaker 1: we're kind of using it pejoratively. It's, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: about the X, and it's usually kind of negative, and

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Speaker 1: it's usually saying the person sort of we use it

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Speaker 1: like a jerk may be selfish jerk. So like, how

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Speaker 1: is the as just kind of a narcissist. I'm over it.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean? Well, he's kind of a selfish

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Speaker 1: jerk and cheated on me roses. He was just sort

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Speaker 1: of nice and boring and I just bailed on you know. Also,

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Speaker 1: so the narcissist you kind of get an idea across,

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Speaker 1: but it's not very it's not very detailed. And in

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Speaker 1: the in the world of psychology, the world of research,

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Speaker 1: where I like we have this like a more expansive

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Speaker 1: definition of narcissism and the capture some of these ideas

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Speaker 1: that I'll just go through it and stopped me if

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Speaker 1: I am too boring at any point. Um, But we

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Speaker 1: talked about narcissism first, is a trait, and that means

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Speaker 1: that people exist on a spectrum or continuum from sort

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Speaker 1: of head levels to low levels, and most people are

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Speaker 1: sort of in the middle. Because and when we talk

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Speaker 1: on narcissism, we really use two different we use two

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Speaker 1: different terms, and what most people are using is when

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Speaker 1: they talk about narcism, it's talking about what we call

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Speaker 1: grandiose narcissism, which is this this narcissism that has. Imagine

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Speaker 1: it having a sense of entitlement and thinking you're special

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Speaker 1: and important, maybe not being super empathetic with people, but

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Speaker 1: also being outgoing and confident and extroverted and may be

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Speaker 1: charismatic and maybe likable or energetic when you first meet

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Speaker 1: the person. And so when you take this combination of

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Speaker 1: kind of entitlement and self importance, that also likability and extroversion,

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Speaker 1: and you get this this kind of iron Man character

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Speaker 1: when a Tony Start character or politician character, it can

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Speaker 1: be it can be something that's that's very likable. Um.

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Speaker 1: So this grandiose narcissism is the trait we see in

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Speaker 1: actors and politicians and country music. You pily see some

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Speaker 1: of this, uh where people who are you know, rise

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Speaker 1: to success very easily, but you can have bad relationships

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Speaker 1: with him, which they'll talk about. Um. And then the

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Speaker 1: other side of narcissism is what we call vulnerable narcissism.

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Speaker 1: And this is what you see more in the clinical

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Speaker 1: world and clinical stettings, a therapy setting. And these are

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Speaker 1: folks that have that sense of entitlement, they think that

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Speaker 1: better than other people famous you know, same as grandiose narcissists,

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Speaker 1: but they also are a little bit insecure. They're kind

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Speaker 1: of depressed or anxious, they have some low self esteem,

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Speaker 1: They're vulnerable to criticism, so they're they're They're feelings are

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Speaker 1: threatened pretty easily. They go up and down, and and

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Speaker 1: how good they feel about themselves. And people who are

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Speaker 1: vulnerably narcissistic, we don't end up voting for for president.

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Speaker 1: They we don't end up seeing them perform, we don't

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Speaker 1: updating them quite as much because they're not outgoing and likable,

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Speaker 1: but they end up in these clinical offices with with

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Speaker 1: depression and anxiety because they're like, how can people don't

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Speaker 1: appreciate how great they am? How come people don't know

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Speaker 1: how attractive I am? You know? How come I'm not

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Speaker 1: getting all the girls? John is season of what I

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Speaker 1: have on a legend, but I'm scared to talk to anyone.

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Speaker 1: And so you have these two phases of narcissism that exists,

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Speaker 1: and both of them are traits on a continuum, and

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Speaker 1: you can have you can find people that are grandiose

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Speaker 1: and vulnerable, so they're they're grandiose, but they have thin

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Speaker 1: skin too, so you can get a mix. And then

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Speaker 1: the third way we talked about narcissism is a very

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Speaker 1: extreme form which is a personality disorder called narcissistic personality

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Speaker 1: disorder or mp D, and that is a very extreme

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Speaker 1: form of narcissism that's that leads to problems or impairment,

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Speaker 1: so they have a clinical disorder. Of clinical level of

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Speaker 1: narcissism has to be messing up your life in a

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Speaker 1: way that's so intense that you need therapy or treatment.

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Speaker 1: So maybe you're you're ruining your marriage because of your

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Speaker 1: in schidelity, or maybe you're ruining your business because you're

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Speaker 1: you're too overconfident and you don't take feedback from people

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Speaker 1: and you make a bunch of dumb risks and you

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Speaker 1: won't learn from mistakes. Or maybe you're you know, you're

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Speaker 1: investing poorly because you're always overestimating your ability, so that

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Speaker 1: it could be, you know, you could have your narcissism

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Speaker 1: that becomes so extreme that it messages if your life

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Speaker 1: and is a disorder. But you can be really narcissistic

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Speaker 1: and not of a disorder. It's just your personality. Okay.

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Speaker 1: I have so many questions about that part of it

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Speaker 1: because just like when yeah, I mean it's like what okay,

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Speaker 1: what I was saying about the ex boyfriend's situation, like,

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Speaker 1: I mean your description of a grandiose narcissist literally probably,

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Speaker 1: I mean it just really sounds like a lot of

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Speaker 1: max So, I mean they're you know, they're very charming,

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Speaker 1: you're very drawn to them and all of these things,

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Speaker 1: but it's when you actually get within the relationship that

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Speaker 1: it becomes a problem. So what question is though, like

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Speaker 1: if someone is just has a has a narcissistic traits

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Speaker 1: or like, well, I guess okay, let me start over

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Speaker 1: first question. Do we all have some narcissism in us? Yes,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's a continuum and sort of by definition,

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Speaker 1: we're all on there at some level of No, there's

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Speaker 1: if I gave narcissistic and narcissistic personality inventory, that hundred people.

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Speaker 1: Everybody's on there. Okay, but you're going to find a

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Speaker 1: certain number of people that are close to the top

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Speaker 1: and there's no real line we say, oh, that's narcissism

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Speaker 1: and that's not. It's but you're going to find a

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Speaker 1: certain amount of people that are at the high end.

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Speaker 1: But most people on narcissism measures are in the middle,

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Speaker 1: are fund of low. You know, it's just it's just

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Speaker 1: you find some that are in the high end. So

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Speaker 1: the way that you talk about it sounds like it's

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Speaker 1: not that big of a deal. But like what we

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Speaker 1: were saying about the X as, I'm like, oh, I

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Speaker 1: gotta get away from this person, Like it's so you know,

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Speaker 1: it's not it's not that big a deal for your AX.

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Speaker 1: It's a big deal for you, if that makes sense.

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Speaker 1: So so the relationship thing is so interesting and at

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Speaker 1: least to so many problems with narcissism, because as you

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Speaker 1: said that the X we're talking about just the generic

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Speaker 1: BRANDIOS and narcissistic X, not yours. To this in general,

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Speaker 1: some of he was charming, confident, probably likable when he

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Speaker 1: met him, seemed to know what he was doing, seemed

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Speaker 1: to have a way about life. You're getting a relationship

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Speaker 1: with somebody like that. The way the relationships work in

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Speaker 1: our culture generally is you you start a relationship that

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Speaker 1: usually starts kind of shallow and fun. You find somebody

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Speaker 1: who's sort of attractive, and you go out a few times.

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Speaker 1: It's really fun, you have a great time, you get

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Speaker 1: a rush, You're like, yeah, I really like this person.

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Speaker 1: This is great. And then after a few months you

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Speaker 1: started becoming more emotionally intimate with the person. She started

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Speaker 1: focusing on caring. You start focusing on, hey, maybe we

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Speaker 1: want to make a commitment, you know, maybe we could

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Speaker 1: even want to move in, or maybe we want to

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Speaker 1: get married all love, you know, and that transition that

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Speaker 1: happens in relationships if you want to take them to

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Speaker 1: the next level. With people who in narcissistics, that doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen well because when you get to that part about

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Speaker 1: the emotion and commitment and you know you can't hit

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Speaker 1: on all my friends and you know you've got to

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Speaker 1: be there emotionally, that doesn't That's not their field, that's

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Speaker 1: not where they do really well. So when you get

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Speaker 1: to that phase in the relationship, that usually starts to

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Speaker 1: fall apart or can start to fall apart, right, Okay,

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Speaker 1: go ahead, sorry and so no, so what what often happened?

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Speaker 1: I mean the story is that you know, you get

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Speaker 1: in the relationship, you're in it a few months, things

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Speaker 1: aren't going well. You start going, well, maybe I'm doing

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Speaker 1: something wrong. Why am I? Why is this gun not

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Speaker 1: as interested you seem to be. Maybe there's something wrong

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Speaker 1: with me. I'll try to be nicer, I'll try to

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Speaker 1: be more loving, well, lo and behold if you're more loving,

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Speaker 1: that kind of pushes the person away because they go,

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Speaker 1: I get away with anything. Now it's sort of backfires

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Speaker 1: and it falls apart and the person that the narcissist

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Speaker 1: is onto somebody else already, and you're sitting there for

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Speaker 1: the next three months. And what the hell do I

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Speaker 1: do wrong? I'm an idiot? How did I not see

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Speaker 1: that coming? What? Or more on? You know, I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: a bad person who can't handle relationships, And like, no,

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Speaker 1: you're totally fine. You just kind with somebody when that

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Speaker 1: interested in commitment, they're interested, and they're interested in commitment

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Speaker 1: on their terms, but not on the terms that work

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Speaker 1: for both of you. So, yeah, will you say that

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Speaker 1: it's so, it's not an issue for them. Isn't that

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Speaker 1: creating problems in their life? It isn't so. I was

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Speaker 1: a little glid when I said that. And it does

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Speaker 1: cause issues for the narcissists, but those issues are usually

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Speaker 1: a little more long term. So what happens to the

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Speaker 1: ex boyfriend is he goes through this relationship a few

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Speaker 1: times because and he looks around and he goes to

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Speaker 1: my friends are married, and to see some of that

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Speaker 1: families and they and they're getting something, they have this

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Speaker 1: love and I don't have that, and maybe I'm missing something.

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Speaker 1: Maybe I need to figure out how to change so

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Speaker 1: I can have a little more committed relationship. And that's

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Speaker 1: when you start seeing people in narcissistics start seeing that

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Speaker 1: their life choices have some consequences. Does that make sense

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Speaker 1: a little later? And and and when I hear from people,

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Speaker 1: you know, I hear from I hear from ten people

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Speaker 1: who had a bad relationship with some needing narcissistic. For

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Speaker 1: everybody who says, look, I'm kind of a narcissistic Keith

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Speaker 1: and I and I want love and I want a family,

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Speaker 1: I'm just I'm not I'm blowing it. Yeah, you know,

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Speaker 1: But that's when but that does happen. It's just usually

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Speaker 1: a little more long term. So it's just a little

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Speaker 1: later once they start realizing or seeing other people go

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Speaker 1: through that process. Yeah, I think, you know. And it's

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Speaker 1: the way, it's the way relationships work in our culture

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Speaker 1: because we have these sort of love attraction relationships and

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Speaker 1: the very individualistic. If you go find do you know whatever,

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Speaker 1: you'll find people in Tinder. If we were in India,

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Speaker 1: um and you know, it's the arranged marriage, then this

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be an issue because you can end up with

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Speaker 1: somebody and then you'd actually learn to love them. Okay,

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Speaker 1: I see, So when does it actually become a problem

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Speaker 1: because you say, like, you know, maybe we all have

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Speaker 1: a little bit of narcissism in us, and um, I

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Speaker 1: do want to talk a little bit about that test

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Speaker 1: that you can take. But if there's a spectrum and

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Speaker 1: we're all on it in some capacity, when is it

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Speaker 1: actually an issue? Is it when it becomes a disorder

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Speaker 1: or is it just if you're super high and narcissism, Like,

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Speaker 1: how does it? What does that look like? You know,

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Speaker 1: I think that's a it's a great question. And I

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Speaker 1: generally think of personality traits as trade offs, meaning, you know,

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Speaker 1: narcissism really would help me in certain situations like doing

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Speaker 1: podcasts for example, or you know, I stand out there

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Speaker 1: and tell the world you're a legends, you know, or

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Speaker 1: you're next. But I mean you gotta ask an ego

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Speaker 1: to do that. And and there are other times when

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Speaker 1: ego really hurts you. So if I'm with my kids,

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Speaker 1: are with my dog, or I'm with my wife and

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Speaker 1: you know, we're trying to talk and I'm trying to listen,

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Speaker 1: you know, my ego sort of interferes um. And so

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Speaker 1: the way I'd like to think about it is that

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Speaker 1: we really want our personality to be flexible and adapt

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Speaker 1: to the situation. So we want to be able to

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Speaker 1: be confident when it's time to be confident, but when

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Speaker 1: it's not time to be confident, we need to be

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Speaker 1: able to dial that back. And maybe we want to

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Speaker 1: be super creative when it's time to be creative, but

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Speaker 1: when we're not, you know, when it's time to just

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Speaker 1: get in line with all the rules, we want to

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Speaker 1: turn that back. And you know, so we have these

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Speaker 1: different traits and they and they're they work, you know,

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Speaker 1: in different places we want it more or less. And

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Speaker 1: so kind of a healthy personality is some of these

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Speaker 1: psychologically flexible I meaning they can they can move around

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Speaker 1: these traits the on what they need. Where people get

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Speaker 1: in trouble is when they become rigid or inflexible and

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Speaker 1: they they can't really change one way all the time. Yes,

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Speaker 1: no matter what the situation is. It's like, what about

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Speaker 1: my ego needs Like dude, pandemic, you know, right, you know,

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Speaker 1: getting your you're not getting your burger Man, that's a pandemic,

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Speaker 1: like my burgers pandemic. Man, let it go. If you

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Speaker 1: can't just let it go, you're gonna suffer because you're like,

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Speaker 1: where are my needs being met? You know, once you

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Speaker 1: were thinking about your needs? Everyone's struggling right now, my friend. Okay,

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Speaker 1: well tell me a little more about ego needs, because

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Speaker 1: I will tell you this. When I was reading your book,

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Speaker 1: The New Science of Narcissism, I'm reading it and I'm like,

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Speaker 1: you know, I was, like I said earlier, I'm like

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Speaker 1: all my excess. Then I'm reading it and I'm reading

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Speaker 1: all these traits, and I was like, holy shit, am

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Speaker 1: I a narcissist? Like you start to like put yourself

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Speaker 1: on it. I started to really ask myself these hard

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Speaker 1: questions and like what you just said about ego needs,

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Speaker 1: Like we all have needs, right, especially in like a

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Speaker 1: relationship for instance, Like where is the line I guess

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Speaker 1: is what I'm trying to figure out of just getting

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Speaker 1: needs met and being in a healthy relationship and being

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Speaker 1: a healthy person versus being on the opposite end of that.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I guess, like what you're saying, just say,

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Speaker 1: staying in the ego place all the time. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: you know, a lot of this is about balance and

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Speaker 1: being in your industry and everything else. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're in a celebrity field. You've got to look like

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Speaker 1: a celebrity, and so that's important one place I think

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Speaker 1: it's really important. I feel, Look, you can worry about

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Speaker 1: your ego and being the best and being the hottest

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Speaker 1: and being the most popular, and that's all cool as

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Speaker 1: long as you're a loving person, as long as you

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Speaker 1: have connections, as long as you have compassion. And so

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Speaker 1: when I look at all the problems of narcissum, because

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Speaker 1: it's very easy just to look at you're a narcissistic,

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Speaker 1: don't be such an ego? Me like, well, then who's

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Speaker 1: gonna jump on stage reciting poetry. Who's gonna put up

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Speaker 1: those crazy pictures that look like you know, the kid

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Speaker 1: drew them and say it's modern art. You need an

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Speaker 1: ego for somebody to do. So what I usually think

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Speaker 1: at least, and this is my own life too, you know,

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Speaker 1: we all struggle with this. It's like, if you're still

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Speaker 1: able to have those compassionate connections with people, if you're

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Speaker 1: able to reach out and help people, if you're loving

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Speaker 1: the people. Um that that will buffer you from getting

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Speaker 1: taken over by your ego. So for me, and it's

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Speaker 1: just my personal practice because I have an ego, is

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Speaker 1: I try to always the funnel stuff through my heart

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Speaker 1: like it is my heart opened, it's my heart working.

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Speaker 1: Am I looking around? And if I do that, I go.

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Speaker 1: You know, you're not going to get in too much trouble.

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Speaker 1: You get some trouble, but you're not going to be

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Speaker 1: a total juror. Every day you're focusing on like expanding

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Speaker 1: your a pass and be for the love a little bit,

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Speaker 1: being more connected if you're loving person. Yeah, you you

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Speaker 1: probably know people like this kind of egomaniacs, but they

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Speaker 1: really try to be loving, They try to be generous.

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Speaker 1: It's not always there because sometimes they're just taught up

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Speaker 1: in their own thing and they go back to it. Look,

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Speaker 1: I can work for somebody like that. I know they're trying.

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Speaker 1: So that to me is that because if you start

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Speaker 1: fiving the ego directly and saying, look, I don't want

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Speaker 1: to be popular, I don't want to be hot. You

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Speaker 1: kind of do want to be hot, you know, I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't want to be ugly? Well, right, and be

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Speaker 1: like trying to talk yourself self out of being successful,

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Speaker 1: like I don't want to be successful or you know,

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Speaker 1: like what then why are we going to work every day?

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Speaker 1: Like I feel like there's a part of us all

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Speaker 1: that says I want to be successful, and that looks

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Speaker 1: different for different people. But um, yeah, the opposite extremes

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Speaker 1: seems a little in humane almost like they're just kind

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Speaker 1: of impossible, like an impossible standard to meet, right And

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Speaker 1: I so that's why I think it's that again, if

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Speaker 1: you focus on the heart, um, it keeps you from saying, look,

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Speaker 1: my goal is to be powerful so I can crush people,

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Speaker 1: and instead my goal is to be powerful and once

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Speaker 1: I'm here, I'm going to try to lift people up

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Speaker 1: with me. I'm going to try to share the view

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Speaker 1: with people. I'm gonna try to maybe climb back down

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Speaker 1: in the mountain and give people some kIPS or help

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Speaker 1: them out, you know, try to bring something back to

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Speaker 1: the people. So I think, I mean, I think conceptualize

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Speaker 1: in your life where there's some part in there, where

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Speaker 1: there's some part of that bottom line that's going out

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Speaker 1: to other people, is a way to balance stats. Um,

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Speaker 1: because you know, he goes there it's it's just that's

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Speaker 1: just we have a very competitive, individualistic society and you

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Speaker 1: need some of it. Yeah, So can there be times

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Speaker 1: in your life where you're more narcissistic than other times

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Speaker 1: that you mentioned? Um? You know, like there's times where

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Speaker 1: a person might be extremely loving or whatever, but then

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Speaker 1: there could be times where they get sucked back into

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Speaker 1: their own stuff. And I know, for instance, I've had

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Speaker 1: like this year, for instance, I had a lot of

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Speaker 1: really big blows work wise, or I was just like

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Speaker 1: super encompassed by a lot of things happening in my

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Speaker 1: personal life. And then of course we all are with

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Speaker 1: this pandemic, right, so I have not felt like my best,

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Speaker 1: most loving self at all the time. Um So is

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Speaker 1: that typical? Like are there times where we can be

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Speaker 1: a little more healthy and staying and out of the

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Speaker 1: ego place and then tom's where you just get absorbed

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Speaker 1: by it for everyone? Or is that just me? I

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Speaker 1: think I think it's you know, there's there's obviously differences

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Speaker 1: between people. But there's two things you've touched on that

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Speaker 1: I think you're really important. One is that there's a

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Speaker 1: general idea that if we if we're well rested and

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Speaker 1: we're stress free. It's much easier to be nice than

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Speaker 1: when we're tired and and and and stressed out or

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Speaker 1: depleted or exhausted. You've gotten work all day. Let's imagine

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Speaker 1: I'm waiting tables, I'm a server at from fancy place

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Speaker 1: and you know, in in uh Nashville, and I'm working hard,

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Speaker 1: you know, pandemics over and I'm smiling at people who

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Speaker 1: are mean to me for eight hours. And I go

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Speaker 1: home to my boyfriend and he's like as a day,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, shut up, I'm exhausted. And so you just

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Speaker 1: get exhausted. And we kind of run our world where

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Speaker 1: we try to be really nice to strangers and we

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Speaker 1: and then we we save our meetness for those we love.

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Speaker 1: It's a very strange system. We so I think that

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Speaker 1: to be our best self, and I'm most loving self,

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Speaker 1: you know, getting sleep, getting rest, eating nutritious tie it,

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Speaker 1: not being you know, on a on a sugar low

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Speaker 1: with it. Just like the clinicians, the clinicals, like collegists

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Speaker 1: always say hungry, angry will only tie. Those are guide

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Speaker 1: of that, you know, those kind of things that will

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Speaker 1: lead to stress. And if you you know, if if

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Speaker 1: when you're stressed and become narcissistic, it's gonna make it worse.

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Speaker 1: You're still you're sure not gonna be more loving. You

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Speaker 1: might be more angry, you might be more hostile. Um So,

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Speaker 1: I think just a general ease and life will help

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Speaker 1: the other thing, or ages you developmental trends, and you

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Speaker 1: know you're you're eighteen nineteen, you're gonna be more focused

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Speaker 1: on yourself twenty one. You know, you you're trying to

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Speaker 1: build a career, You're trying to figure out who you are.

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Speaker 1: And then at some point maybe you go, Okay, I've

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Speaker 1: got I've got my foot in the career, I'm building something.

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Speaker 1: Now i want to step out and have a family,

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Speaker 1: and maybe then I've got to be less self focused,

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Speaker 1: you know. And then maybe once my family is going

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Speaker 1: to gotta get my kids looked at my kids through college,

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Speaker 1: so I gotta be self focused again. To so, some

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Speaker 1: models in psychology talk about life is a sort of

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Speaker 1: a series of cycles, and some more narcissistic, the more interpersonal.

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Speaker 1: Um And some people talk about life is when you know,

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Speaker 1: there's this sort of major cycle. When you're young, you're

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Speaker 1: you're a little more selfish, and when you get older

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Speaker 1: and you get sort of put into the system. You

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Speaker 1: get married, you work, you're kind of doing your thing.

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Speaker 1: You become a little more socialized, you're a little less narcissistic,

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Speaker 1: you're a little more focused on the system. Okay, that

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Speaker 1: makes actual total sense because I think about when I

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Speaker 1: graduated college and I was like applying for my first jobs,

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Speaker 1: I had such an entitlement. This is what I always

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Speaker 1: tell like young twenties some things. I literally was like, Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna walk into these places and they're going to

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Speaker 1: be so happy to hire me, you know, and then

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Speaker 1: you get out there and you're like, oh, wait, first

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Speaker 1: of all, there's a million other people just like me,

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Speaker 1: and um they you know, either they had they are

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Speaker 1: more hard working, or they went to a better school,

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Speaker 1: or they made better grades. Like there's all these different

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Speaker 1: things that I think reality hits and you switch out

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Speaker 1: of that entitlement. But I've seen a lot of people

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Speaker 1: really struggle with that or you know, like that's it's

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Speaker 1: a huge tip I try to give like my young

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Speaker 1: interns that work for me and stuff is just like

425
00:22:58,080 --> 00:23:01,239
Speaker 1: stop thinking that you deserve any thing and really like

426
00:23:01,359 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: put the work in to earn it. Yeah, and that

427
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 1: I mean this is one of the I mean, I

428
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:11,080
Speaker 1: wrote a lot about generational differences in the past, and

429
00:23:11,160 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: this stuff comes up, and some of it's developmental and

430
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:17,240
Speaker 1: it's but yeah, you're you're told for a long period

431
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:20,200
Speaker 1: of time that you're awesome, and you're in school and

432
00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: you're told you're awesome, and you're told you're gonna be

433
00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 1: a winner and you're not and no one promised you

434
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 1: that and it's not fair and it really sucks. And

435
00:23:31,000 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 1: so that transition you get your ego crash. It's really

436
00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:39,639
Speaker 1: painful to people. Yeah, and that's why I give the

437
00:23:39,680 --> 00:23:42,920
Speaker 1: example to like gig wave surfers or fighters or people

438
00:23:43,000 --> 00:23:45,440
Speaker 1: like that are awesome, super nice because they just have

439
00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,280
Speaker 1: got crushed so many times, they've lost so many times.

440
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:53,320
Speaker 1: They become humble and really more loving in a way. Um,

441
00:23:53,359 --> 00:23:55,640
Speaker 1: but what's interesting about your story too, is you went

442
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:58,240
Speaker 1: for it. You're like I thought I was a cat act.

443
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: I went for it. So at least you went for it,

444
00:24:01,560 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 1: you know, And and you know, I grew up. I

445
00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:07,520
Speaker 1: I was you know, when I was young, I was

446
00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,600
Speaker 1: really secure, really anxious, and uh, you know, I go

447
00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: for stuff, but it was just gut check controlled. Yeah,

448
00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:18,480
Speaker 1: you know, if anyone liked me, I was like, oh

449
00:24:18,520 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: my god, they must not know who I am. And

450
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,159
Speaker 1: and that's not fun either. So you know that that

451
00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:27,560
Speaker 1: ego when you start something isn't bad to go out

452
00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: there and do it, as long as you're able to

453
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,159
Speaker 1: sort of take that ego off pretty quickly when you

454
00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:37,000
Speaker 1: realize you're you know, you're not that special. That was

455
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:41,119
Speaker 1: a huge one. And it's hard, and and and the

456
00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:43,520
Speaker 1: other thing. I think it's funny when you're bringing this up,

457
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,760
Speaker 1: because I am you know, I started judging myself as

458
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:48,679
Speaker 1: I got older and studied this. I thought, you know,

459
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: when I'm the dumbest person at the table, that's when

460
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:55,959
Speaker 1: I know what I've made it so academic, yeah, as

461
00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,120
Speaker 1: an academic. So I've gone to dinner and I've looked

462
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:00,800
Speaker 1: around the table. I's likes this, all these people I've

463
00:25:00,800 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: ever seen in my right, and I thought, I'm sitting

464
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:06,360
Speaker 1: with them and you shouldn't be here. This is as

465
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: good as a kid. Well that's such a good way

466
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:10,400
Speaker 1: to look at it, though, because we all I think

467
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: a lot of times what I hear people say or

468
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:15,159
Speaker 1: what I deal with is that um imposter syndrome. And

469
00:25:15,160 --> 00:25:17,000
Speaker 1: so instead of going oh my god, I shouldn't be here.

470
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 1: You're just like happy to be there with these people.

471
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:24,400
Speaker 1: It's it's, it's, it's, it's. It's a way of kind

472
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 1: of just embracing and Foster syndrome a little more. Foster

473
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,720
Speaker 1: syndrome is is totally normal, and it's you know, it's

474
00:25:31,760 --> 00:25:34,840
Speaker 1: normal for people, especially when you're rising through a system.

475
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 1: So every time you start something like, oh my god,

476
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,399
Speaker 1: I'm a gratitude Oh my god, I'm a professor. This

477
00:25:39,560 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: is crazy, you know, and you kind of do that

478
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: your whole life. Um. But but if you're not doing that,

479
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 1: you know, I always tell my students, it's very easy

480
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 1: to set up a world where like you don't get

481
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 1: rattled and you're the you know everything. You just set

482
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: up a very small world for yourself when you're the

483
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:01,119
Speaker 1: boss and and you won't be threatened and um, and

484
00:26:01,200 --> 00:26:04,879
Speaker 1: you won't grow. But if you want to grow, you

485
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: have to be comfortable being an idiot and being the

486
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:11,960
Speaker 1: dumbest portion love that though, yes, that is so true.

487
00:26:13,119 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 1: And then when you start doing you start going, oh

488
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 1: my god, look how surrounded by these on such idiot

489
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:20,760
Speaker 1: you know, and I'm on the stage with all these

490
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:24,159
Speaker 1: great people and you start getting reinforced for that this

491
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:27,399
Speaker 1: is great, I'm doing it right. You start to be

492
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: able to embrace your you know, your failings, and that's

493
00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 1: when you start to grow. Yes, the new thing I

494
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,040
Speaker 1: started doing too. When I feel that feeling of like,

495
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:37,919
Speaker 1: oh God, I don't know what I'm doing or I'm

496
00:26:37,920 --> 00:26:40,480
Speaker 1: starting something new and I see other people doing it

497
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,520
Speaker 1: so easily, what I try to say to myself now

498
00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: is um to like, look at what they're doing, look

499
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,840
Speaker 1: at what they're doing well, and learn from it and

500
00:26:49,880 --> 00:26:51,600
Speaker 1: just go I can do that too. I'm in the

501
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:54,080
Speaker 1: same place now. Maybe you don't know how to do

502
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 1: it yet, but like I like how he does that,

503
00:26:56,920 --> 00:26:59,000
Speaker 1: or I like how she does this part, and just

504
00:26:59,040 --> 00:27:04,439
Speaker 1: take take those lessons instead. Yes, because one of the

505
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: things that happens with narcissism. You see this with with

506
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,840
Speaker 1: rulnable narcissism in particular grandiose as well as you see anything.

507
00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: So you know, I'll look at those people. It's so

508
00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: easy for them. It's just not fair. You screw them.

509
00:27:19,280 --> 00:27:21,920
Speaker 1: I'm going to trip them up, talk on their back,

510
00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,679
Speaker 1: I'm gonna shame them, and you know, so you know,

511
00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 1: I see myself doing stuff like that, I'm gonna go,

512
00:27:27,480 --> 00:27:31,840
Speaker 1: you just sound like an envious little child. You're acting,

513
00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 1: you know, and it's much better to say, look at

514
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:37,320
Speaker 1: these people that are so successful, but I'm so glad

515
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,679
Speaker 1: they did this because I can learn from them, and I,

516
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,399
Speaker 1: like you said, take what they're doing well and apply

517
00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,560
Speaker 1: it to me and modify it and this is awesome

518
00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,920
Speaker 1: and then all internalized. But you feel like if your

519
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 1: ego to be able to do that, they look, I'm learning,

520
00:27:52,080 --> 00:27:56,040
Speaker 1: I'm i'm growing, I'm changing. This is the process, and

521
00:27:56,640 --> 00:27:58,680
Speaker 1: there's a there's a step to do that because you're

522
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: not the best. Right. I want to talk a little

523
00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,720
Speaker 1: bit about measuring narcissism, because you have a lot in

524
00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,800
Speaker 1: your book about actually the science by which you guys

525
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 1: are starting to change how you measure narcissism. And we

526
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:17,919
Speaker 1: mentioned a little bit the n P I and UM.

527
00:28:17,960 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: I took the test and I had a hard time

528
00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:23,760
Speaker 1: because some of the questions I felt like I didn't

529
00:28:23,800 --> 00:28:27,080
Speaker 1: identify with either, and some of the questions I felt

530
00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: like I could identify with both, and so then it

531
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:34,080
Speaker 1: was like, how do I answer? Yeah, that's a strange test.

532
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 1: So UM, a little bit of history. There was a.

533
00:28:38,960 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: There has been several ways we've measured narcissism, but the

534
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: testic really popular in the eighties and it's still so

535
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:51,640
Speaker 1: and strong. It's called the Narcissistic Personality Inventory, and it's

536
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 1: a it's a strange test, and that most of what

537
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:57,080
Speaker 1: we do. If you take a psychology to we'll say,

538
00:28:57,160 --> 00:28:58,920
Speaker 1: you know, we'll put it on a five point scale.

539
00:28:59,240 --> 00:29:00,720
Speaker 1: You know, if I ruled world, there would be a

540
00:29:00,760 --> 00:29:04,040
Speaker 1: much better place. One to five. Five is definitely not

541
00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: at all. It's usually how you do it. So but

542
00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: there's problems with self report, and you know, sometimes people

543
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 1: just say what they think is the right thing to say.

544
00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,560
Speaker 1: And so what they did with this scale and some

545
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 1: others at the time, as they use what's called a

546
00:29:19,640 --> 00:29:22,560
Speaker 1: forced choice, So they give you two questions and you

547
00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 1: have to pick one. But the challenges both those questions

548
00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: are kind of socially acceptable. So for example, it might

549
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,880
Speaker 1: be hey, Keith, if you rule the rule the world,

550
00:29:33,920 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 1: it would be a much better place versus ruling the

551
00:29:37,160 --> 00:29:39,640
Speaker 1: world frightens the hell out of me. So I have

552
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: to make a choice, and I'm thinking, if I rule

553
00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:44,720
Speaker 1: the world, I couldn't do any better than anyone else.

554
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:49,000
Speaker 1: What I know I'm not that narcissistic, but does it

555
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: scare the hell out of me? Oh? I think it'd

556
00:29:51,280 --> 00:29:55,080
Speaker 1: be super fun to rule. Is exactly what was happening

557
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,320
Speaker 1: to me when I was taking it? So which, so

558
00:29:57,360 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 1: which one do I pick? And then it's kind of

559
00:29:59,360 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: fifty fifth And so what that means is your score

560
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 1: is probably gonna you can probably flip the narcissistic one

561
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,920
Speaker 1: on one and the non narcissistic another and probably hit up.

562
00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:11,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to ask you what your score was unless

563
00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,240
Speaker 1: you want to tell me. But I don't think I

564
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 1: do because I got it and and I was like what

565
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: but but but a lot of times that's just the framing,

566
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:26,239
Speaker 1: and you see the framing with that, it makes it

567
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:29,840
Speaker 1: interesting because you're answering with those forced choice you're gonna

568
00:30:29,840 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: answer a little differently. If it were one to five scale,

569
00:30:33,400 --> 00:30:35,440
Speaker 1: you might say, if I rule the world, you know,

570
00:30:35,640 --> 00:30:39,800
Speaker 1: be a much better place as three out of five? Totally? Yes, right?

571
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 1: So is it accurate though, that's the question, is that

572
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: how we're measuring narcissism? And if so, is that a

573
00:30:47,880 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 1: very accurate way to do that? It's um that forced

574
00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 1: choice format that it works reasonally well but I think

575
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,800
Speaker 1: a five point Lifers scale is a better I mean,

576
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:07,680
Speaker 1: sorry to these words, it's more psychometrically sound. So I mean,

577
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 1: my student Brittany built one. So we built some five

578
00:31:10,600 --> 00:31:13,360
Speaker 1: point scale. It's the nice thing about the n PI.

579
00:31:13,480 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: And the reason I like the force choice for people

580
00:31:16,280 --> 00:31:19,400
Speaker 1: to take it's because we have so many people are

581
00:31:19,400 --> 00:31:23,000
Speaker 1: taking at forty I am version, and we have a

582
00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:25,720
Speaker 1: pretty good idea. What the means ars's it makes it

583
00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: easy to compare yourself to other people. What do you

584
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 1: mean meaning if if you got, let's say that the

585
00:31:31,840 --> 00:31:35,120
Speaker 1: forty point Narcissism scale, and I can say, you know,

586
00:31:35,160 --> 00:31:37,840
Speaker 1: the average score is about you know, for some of

587
00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:40,200
Speaker 1: your age it's probably uh, I'm just gonna say at

588
00:31:40,280 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 1: thirteen and twelve, I don't know. And the average score,

589
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: ever president is estimated to maybe the twenty five, and

590
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: the average comedian maybe it's the nineteen and you so

591
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: you kind of you can kind of get numbers for

592
00:31:54,640 --> 00:32:00,160
Speaker 1: it because we've done it with so many samples. Um,

593
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: But it would be much better if we had a

594
00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: five point scale that we've given to all those different people. Right,

595
00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:08,760
Speaker 1: we just don't have it. It's just the history of

596
00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:11,280
Speaker 1: how this was made, and how it kind of stuck

597
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 1: stuck around, and you know, we we built better scale

598
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:19,520
Speaker 1: since then, but they're just not as they're just um

599
00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: haven't been used as much, so it's harder to find

600
00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,920
Speaker 1: comparison groups, and they're a little longer than things. Yeah. Well,

601
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: I will say when I took it and I got

602
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 1: my score and it was higher than I would have liked,

603
00:32:31,920 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: I have first was like, oh my gosh, Oh my gosh.

604
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:38,360
Speaker 1: And but then like I started reading or kept reading more,

605
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:40,240
Speaker 1: and you were saying, like, if you score high, don't

606
00:32:40,240 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: be alarmed. It's just interesting to recognize that maybe some

607
00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:46,520
Speaker 1: traits about you. So then I started thinking through kind

608
00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:48,520
Speaker 1: of my year, like I was saying to you earlier,

609
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,680
Speaker 1: and I actually think I answered some of the questions

610
00:32:51,800 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 1: based on how I've been lately, whereas when I look

611
00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: at my life on a grander scheme of like even

612
00:32:59,560 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: like maybe when I'm in my healthier place, the answer

613
00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 1: is different. So it's like it's not always one or

614
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:07,200
Speaker 1: the other. And so I just it kind of made

615
00:33:07,200 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: me think about, Okay, well, maybe right now this is

616
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,479
Speaker 1: something that I could look at in certain characteristics are

617
00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: in certain areas of my life, even maybe where I've

618
00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,480
Speaker 1: been a little bit too self focused or too self absorbed,

619
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 1: and then I can look at it and go, Okay,

620
00:33:21,560 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: what can I do better? Do you know what I'm saying? Absolutely?

621
00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,480
Speaker 1: And um, I think that. So first of all, these

622
00:33:28,480 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: score like your personality is going to fluctuate over time.

623
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 1: It's going to change in some ways that are kind

624
00:33:33,920 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 1: of uh, developmentally appropriate. You know, most people over time

625
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,880
Speaker 1: they become maybe a little nicer as they get older.

626
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,400
Speaker 1: Maybe they get old, they get a little less open

627
00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:47,000
Speaker 1: to experience when they're in their oldest age, a little

628
00:33:47,000 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 1: more you know, concrete now they think. So there are

629
00:33:49,520 --> 00:33:51,720
Speaker 1: already these sort of changes people go to. But also

630
00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:57,480
Speaker 1: if you measure even uh narcissistic personality inventory the extreme forms,

631
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,840
Speaker 1: people will have it and they won't have it for

632
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:03,800
Speaker 1: six months, it will come back. So people are fluctuating

633
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: around these stores depending on what's going on in the

634
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,000
Speaker 1: right So we're saying that it makes perfect sense, just

635
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: like it would for anxiety. You know, anxiety stores are

636
00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: much higher. I don't know, they're much higher. What I

637
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: can tell channing with people that anxiety and depression has

638
00:34:19,760 --> 00:34:24,640
Speaker 1: probably gone up during the pandemic. Sure, yeah, yes, seems

639
00:34:24,719 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: that way in the data. You know, I don't publicly

640
00:34:27,160 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: try to be a little more cautious, but yeah, just

641
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: the ones I talk to you people like that. I

642
00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 1: think dosing and medicine is probably going up and no

643
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,800
Speaker 1: one's done their study on it. Yeah, like an anxiety meds,

644
00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:39,279
Speaker 1: I've got people doses and going up because I've only

645
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,920
Speaker 1: heard that anecdotally. Um so, I mean that's an example

646
00:34:44,040 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 1: where people are changing because of the of the social situation,

647
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: and narcissism could do that as well. And it's tired

648
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 1: of you just people are so isolated right now, totally

649
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: well right, I mean you're with yourself all the time,

650
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 1: So it makes it a lot easier to just focus

651
00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:01,719
Speaker 1: on you and your needs and all of that stuff, right,

652
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:03,880
Speaker 1: because that's you know, all, what do you do? You're

653
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,040
Speaker 1: stuck with your kids and you're trying to just survive.

654
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,239
Speaker 1: You sing yourself and everyone's like, what do you got?

655
00:35:08,320 --> 00:35:10,360
Speaker 1: Six months? So you're going to become a great person,

656
00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:15,239
Speaker 1: feel like, look but it's so depressed. Yeah, going to

657
00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:17,840
Speaker 1: get out of bed, maybe eat and they make it

658
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,799
Speaker 1: tell five soil I can start drinking, right, and but

659
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,480
Speaker 1: this is but this is America. And like we're a

660
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,920
Speaker 1: high cheating culture and like, well, did you learn Spanish exactly?

661
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:37,799
Speaker 1: You don't know Spanish. That's it. So so it's just

662
00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: we live in this you know, there's a lot of

663
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:45,560
Speaker 1: pressure to perform um and uh and it's I love

664
00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,759
Speaker 1: it about America, I know anti America anyway, love that,

665
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 1: but it's also exhausting and death for people to just employed.

666
00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 1: For people that look at your freaking pandemic, I'm depressed.

667
00:35:56,440 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: I don't know what to do. I just want to sleep, right,

668
00:35:59,800 --> 00:36:02,239
Speaker 1: you know, I just want to survive this thing and

669
00:36:02,239 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 1: then I'll work up on the other side. You know, Well,

670
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 1: let's kind of talk about that then, because you mentioned

671
00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 1: our society being such a you know, a highly like

672
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:16,480
Speaker 1: performance based society, and I think the pandemic has clearly

673
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: rocked that for a lot of people. I know that's

674
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: been a huge thing. For me is like asking myself

675
00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:23,440
Speaker 1: the questions who am I now? Because so much of

676
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,920
Speaker 1: my identity was wrapped up into my work and my

677
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,920
Speaker 1: public life like you were talking about, and just validation

678
00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:32,560
Speaker 1: from that and who I work with in that celebrity

679
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,600
Speaker 1: world and all of that, and when that's ripped away,

680
00:36:35,880 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 1: you're faced with yourself and a lot of other questions.

681
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: But typically in our world, we have this society that's

682
00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:47,480
Speaker 1: super heavy focused on social media and your appearance that

683
00:36:47,520 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 1: way and the perception that you're putting out there, even

684
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,000
Speaker 1: the reality TV stuff. I was reading in your book

685
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:58,760
Speaker 1: that there's a high narcissistic um personality rate amongst reality

686
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,680
Speaker 1: TV stars because because of the drama that they're expected

687
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:06,440
Speaker 1: to bring, and that's like a very typical characteristic right

688
00:37:06,920 --> 00:37:09,720
Speaker 1: of ye. So can you talk a little bit about

689
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,319
Speaker 1: that and just like our society are we are we

690
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:17,359
Speaker 1: actually like creating a narcissistic society or making it more

691
00:37:17,360 --> 00:37:23,799
Speaker 1: acceptable to be narcissistic. Uh, yeah, that's a lot. There's

692
00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,440
Speaker 1: a lot in the question. I'm just trying to break

693
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: it down a little bit. But so a few a

694
00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:33,720
Speaker 1: few things you've mentioned. One is, you know, we build

695
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:38,440
Speaker 1: a professional identity. Um, many of us because of the

696
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 1: breakdown and sort of work and jobs, we all kind

697
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: of our own bosh. We have to build personal brands.

698
00:37:44,760 --> 00:37:46,560
Speaker 1: So it's not just you just it's not just you

699
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: have to be nice, Keith. It's not just you need

700
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:50,680
Speaker 1: to know a few dad jokes to get you know,

701
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,040
Speaker 1: you just you know, but you also need a brand,

702
00:37:53,640 --> 00:37:55,560
Speaker 1: and you're killing twenty year olds. You've got to build

703
00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,120
Speaker 1: a brand, and it's it's hard. So there's just all

704
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,000
Speaker 1: this pressure on building these social brands. And you know,

705
00:38:02,080 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: we we build brands and we get feedback for those

706
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,280
Speaker 1: you know, so here's who I am, here's my feedback,

707
00:38:07,320 --> 00:38:11,320
Speaker 1: and social media, of course makes it super easy. Here's

708
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:13,920
Speaker 1: my brand, Let me share it on the Instagram. I mean,

709
00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:16,160
Speaker 1: if you're stylist, you're probably doing a lot of Instagram.

710
00:38:16,239 --> 00:38:19,080
Speaker 1: I don't know, but you know, yeah, that would be

711
00:38:19,239 --> 00:38:21,479
Speaker 1: you know, that's very common. See what you want to show,

712
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: what your performance and how good you are, and and

713
00:38:24,000 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: and and say you're sort of curating a brand all

714
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,080
Speaker 1: the time and getting feedback, and other people are doing

715
00:38:29,120 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: the same thing, and you're constantly working on each other

716
00:38:32,719 --> 00:38:35,799
Speaker 1: and helping each other, fighting with each other whatever to

717
00:38:35,920 --> 00:38:38,719
Speaker 1: do the build these brands and this stuff, and then

718
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 1: it all stops, and like who am I? I mean,

719
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 1: I all I know is I'm a machine that builds

720
00:38:46,400 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: brands and an identity and gets feedback. And when that

721
00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,800
Speaker 1: feedback stops, it all just kind of self to the bottom.

722
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,919
Speaker 1: And that's you know, an existential crisis. I mean, that's

723
00:38:56,000 --> 00:38:57,719
Speaker 1: kind of what happened to Who am I? What am

724
00:38:57,760 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: I here for? Uh? So I think that's this is

725
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:05,000
Speaker 1: gonna this transition, I guess, you know, when I try

726
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,640
Speaker 1: to think of positive stuff about the pandemic, which I've

727
00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:09,799
Speaker 1: tried to do a few times, especially when it's really

728
00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: depressed by it is, it's going to give people a

729
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: chance to really look inward. And and a lot of

730
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 1: people are reflecting on what they're doing and who they

731
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: want to be. And it's just right for me? And

732
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: if it's not right, what should I do that's more

733
00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:26,239
Speaker 1: authentic or it's more real. And you know, everybody's like,

734
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:28,880
Speaker 1: I'm moving to Montana. I don't know everybody. I know

735
00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,200
Speaker 1: it's moving to Montana. And you've been you've been to

736
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:37,879
Speaker 1: Voltana to the Winner. But it's beautiful, but they never

737
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,960
Speaker 1: have you know, they're just like good for you. You know,

738
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 1: maybe I'll move to Montana. So so that I think

739
00:39:44,480 --> 00:39:47,520
Speaker 1: people are having that issue. Uh And I think this

740
00:39:47,680 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: is like what is bringing up with you? Is bring

741
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: It's happened with a lot of people. It's just identity

742
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:56,799
Speaker 1: is so hooked into a rapidly moving economy and when

743
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:00,440
Speaker 1: that's gone. You know, it all kind of falls apart.

744
00:40:00,560 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: The other issue is about how we're selecting people for

745
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,680
Speaker 1: a lot of these things, and social media select and

746
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 1: when I use the word seless, so this is sort

747
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:15,160
Speaker 1: of this just like an industry term. But selecx for

748
00:40:15,400 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: means it pulls forward, attracts, or draws in, um, narcissism.

749
00:40:22,080 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 1: So social media pulls for narcissism, meaning we all use

750
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:30,800
Speaker 1: social media some another, but people in narcissistic tend to

751
00:40:30,840 --> 00:40:33,879
Speaker 1: be really better at it. They tend to have more connections,

752
00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:39,120
Speaker 1: more friends, more interactions. Um, you know, it takes selfies

753
00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: and they feel good about it and they share them

754
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,160
Speaker 1: and it's just easier for them to use social media.

755
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:50,719
Speaker 1: Social media select for narcissism, such a grandiose narcissism. Reality

756
00:40:50,800 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 1: television select for narcissism because you you need a bunch

757
00:40:56,360 --> 00:40:59,120
Speaker 1: of people who want to be famous for nothing except

758
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:04,520
Speaker 1: for amos, Right, who who wants to do that? Well,

759
00:41:04,640 --> 00:41:08,120
Speaker 1: somebody who sported an narcissistic like I want to be famous?

760
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: Why do you want to be saying I just want

761
00:41:10,200 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: people to think I'm cool. Well, that's the culture that's

762
00:41:14,680 --> 00:41:17,040
Speaker 1: been created, right, Like the Kardashians. I always use them

763
00:41:17,080 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: as the example. And first of all, I have to

764
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,480
Speaker 1: give you the little note that I did a reality

765
00:41:21,520 --> 00:41:24,680
Speaker 1: TV show and it was I was but I was

766
00:41:24,800 --> 00:41:27,000
Speaker 1: terrible at it. And that's that's why this is so

767
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: fascinating to me. I actually did not enjoy it very much,

768
00:41:30,120 --> 00:41:32,799
Speaker 1: but I was looking at it from a brand perspective

769
00:41:32,840 --> 00:41:36,160
Speaker 1: of you can't beat that exposure. However, it ended up

770
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:38,840
Speaker 1: biting me in the ass because of my inability to

771
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 1: do it, the way that that system is set up,

772
00:41:43,120 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 1: and um, and it kind of backfired on me. But

773
00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: what I've noticed, um is just like that, you know,

774
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:54,120
Speaker 1: the the Kardashian culture of it. They make it so

775
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 1: it looks just so glamorous to just get famous for

776
00:41:58,800 --> 00:42:02,160
Speaker 1: doing nothing or having a sex tape or being rich

777
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:04,080
Speaker 1: or you know, any of those things, and it makes

778
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: it so attainable that I think that the culture that

779
00:42:07,600 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 1: we've created is one of people just like lusting after that. Almost. Oh,

780
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: I mean absolutely, And that's really I would love to

781
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:23,600
Speaker 1: I want to hear it was I'm really curious. Okay, yeah,

782
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,440
Speaker 1: I think this stuff that's is so fascinating, and I

783
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:29,080
Speaker 1: don't I've never been on reality television. But I've talked

784
00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: to the camera people and stuff, and I've heard a

785
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:34,960
Speaker 1: lot of it is you select people want to be

786
00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 1: famous and then they're drinking, and people kind of set

787
00:42:38,120 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: up fights and set up drama. Producers will do this.

788
00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:44,400
Speaker 1: I mean, one person told me, so, you know, the

789
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: only people on reality television or real is Jackass. H

790
00:42:50,239 --> 00:42:53,399
Speaker 1: forgot about that. Yeah, the guy was like, I work

791
00:42:53,480 --> 00:42:57,399
Speaker 1: with Jackass, and those guys are truly crazy and everything else,

792
00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:00,399
Speaker 1: you know, everything else is kind of you know, there's

793
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,040
Speaker 1: a lot of alcohol. It's kind of controlled. Their scripts

794
00:43:03,040 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: that are being built in all the time and narratives,

795
00:43:05,960 --> 00:43:08,080
Speaker 1: and I don't know if it's true. I haven't done

796
00:43:08,200 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 1: well I could tell you. I'll just tell you from

797
00:43:10,000 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: my experience. What I did end up realizing that I

798
00:43:13,080 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 1: enjoyed about it was that I the second season. I

799
00:43:17,239 --> 00:43:19,680
Speaker 1: was on two seasons, and the second season I kind

800
00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: of just leaned in and opened up about things I

801
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 1: was struggling with and that was a way for me

802
00:43:25,320 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 1: to connect because then I started getting, you know, on

803
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,520
Speaker 1: social media, lots of messages from people who had been

804
00:43:30,520 --> 00:43:33,840
Speaker 1: through the same thing, and I really enjoyed that aspect

805
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:35,919
Speaker 1: of it. I love to connect with people. I love

806
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 1: hearing stories of people who have gone through the same

807
00:43:38,520 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 1: thing as me, Like it just makes me feel not

808
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: so alone in this world. Um. However, the person I

809
00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:45,880
Speaker 1: was on the show very cavalley. I'll just say it,

810
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: but it was. It was a reality TV star from

811
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:52,440
Speaker 1: the past show and so the way that that dynamic

812
00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,359
Speaker 1: was set up was it was supposed to be real

813
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: at first and then they kind of shifted as a

814
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,680
Speaker 1: show needed more ratings, and I just couldn't do it. Like,

815
00:43:59,719 --> 00:44:03,600
Speaker 1: I literally couldn't do it because it wasn't It's not

816
00:44:03,680 --> 00:44:06,640
Speaker 1: my wiring to just fake something. You know. It's just

817
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 1: like a weird dynamic to me, but it is. It

818
00:44:09,239 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: is set up like that a lot and one person

819
00:44:12,360 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 1: and the producers are controlling the narrative, which is just bizarre.

820
00:44:16,520 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 1: It's weird. But some people like it even when it's negative,

821
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 1: because it doesn't it's not you know, any publicity is

822
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,239
Speaker 1: good publicity, right, You're getting attention, you're getting your name

823
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 1: out there, and like and when I you know, you've

824
00:44:32,040 --> 00:44:35,360
Speaker 1: been abound celebrity. But I just say that academics like

825
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:37,640
Speaker 1: you stick your head out out of the foxhold. Somebody's

826
00:44:37,640 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 1: gonna shoot you. Right, generally have the people hate your

827
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:46,480
Speaker 1: That's exactly right. I learned that lesson. I mean, I'll

828
00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:49,120
Speaker 1: do this podcast and I'll probay somebody writer viudes like

829
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:52,399
Speaker 1: a Campbell, what an idiot? You don't know anything? You know?

830
00:44:52,800 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: And you know, Annie Spats that's my favorite when they

831
00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: come in like it has nothing to do with what

832
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:01,080
Speaker 1: you said. That's what always tells me. It's like, God,

833
00:45:01,120 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: you're sad. I'm like, oh, that's the nature of it. Like,

834
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: that's just the nature for modern society. You know, they

835
00:45:11,000 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 1: put you out there and people love you know, they

836
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 1: it's nice getting the same. But some people dislike at

837
00:45:16,880 --> 00:45:20,640
Speaker 1: tension because they feel they matter and it makes sense.

838
00:45:20,760 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know. Probably I'd probably go on

839
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:27,640
Speaker 1: reality show US and neither out. Don't do it, don't

840
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:32,080
Speaker 1: do it? It Well, it feels good until it doesn't,

841
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like the attention feels nice

842
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:37,239
Speaker 1: when it's working for you, but when it doesn't, it

843
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:42,080
Speaker 1: doesn't feel so good. That's yeah. I um yeah, fame

844
00:45:42,280 --> 00:45:47,600
Speaker 1: is anyway with my you know, with research. Every one

845
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: you write an article. So back in the back in

846
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: the day when Facebook came out, Um, I was I

847
00:45:53,800 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 1: was looking. I was like, oh my god, there's narcissist.

848
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:58,359
Speaker 1: So I got my said Laura, I'm like, let's study this.

849
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,439
Speaker 1: And that's when we just kind of first figured out

850
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: that there is some link between narcissism and special media.

851
00:46:04,239 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 1: And there's been a lot of research since, but we

852
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:10,040
Speaker 1: first had the study. Some newspaper picked it up and

853
00:46:10,080 --> 00:46:14,840
Speaker 1: said facebookers are narcissists. That became like the headline on

854
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:18,120
Speaker 1: the Drudge Report. And you know, I'm getting hate mail,

855
00:46:18,160 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: and my my first law im like Laurens go talk

856
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: to people in deep famous and she's like, I love

857
00:46:23,320 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: this fame for about a day and then a day

858
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 1: and it happened. It's just like, fame sucks. It's not

859
00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:33,080
Speaker 1: that greatly. How is that hate mail going? Right? This

860
00:46:33,120 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: is all But it was really cool because she got

861
00:46:36,600 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 1: to go through a whole theme cycle in the day

862
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:43,000
Speaker 1: and and learned that it's really not as great as

863
00:46:43,000 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: it sounds. But that's a hard lesson to learn unless

864
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:48,280
Speaker 1: you do it, because because you want to be famous.

865
00:46:48,400 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: This is America, of course, and no one, no one,

866
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,960
Speaker 1: as much as you could go yeah, but you're getting

867
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:57,320
Speaker 1: all this hate mail or these bullies. Everyone's kind of like, yeah,

868
00:46:57,440 --> 00:47:00,320
Speaker 1: but you get X, Y and Z, that seems so

869
00:47:00,400 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: much better. And I guess it just depends on what's

870
00:47:02,040 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: more important to you. But for me, it wasn't worth it.

871
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: Like I I did not enjoy the death threats or

872
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:09,960
Speaker 1: the bullying or the like. That's not worth it to me.

873
00:47:10,000 --> 00:47:11,920
Speaker 1: I would rather just go about my life, you know.

874
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,359
Speaker 1: But for some people, they don't care. But that's really

875
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,680
Speaker 1: interesting for narcissism, because you think about narcissism is like,

876
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: you don't have that that interpersonal love. Peace isn't as important.

877
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:25,640
Speaker 1: It's not that you can't love, but that piece of

878
00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,720
Speaker 1: love isn't as important as that peace for being loved

879
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 1: or being admired. Interesting, so people like, you know what, sure,

880
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,439
Speaker 1: some people hate me, but I noticed, and that matters more.

881
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:41,680
Speaker 1: When I go to bed at night, I'm sort of thinking, night,

882
00:47:41,800 --> 00:47:45,719
Speaker 1: I noticed. That's pretty bitching. Yeah, And other people are like,

883
00:47:45,840 --> 00:47:48,040
Speaker 1: you know, I want to be loved and that's pretty good,

884
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 1: and a lot of us, you know, want those and

885
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:53,399
Speaker 1: we go to beig going in loved and my puppies here,

886
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: but kind of wish I was famous and noticed, and

887
00:47:56,000 --> 00:47:58,319
Speaker 1: you know, other people are going out I'm famous I

888
00:47:58,360 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: wish my puppies were here. It's a it's a tradeoff.

889
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,040
Speaker 1: And the other thing you mentioned in there as I

890
00:48:05,080 --> 00:48:09,600
Speaker 1: have a student who actually studies celebrities, um Patrick, and

891
00:48:09,680 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: he and what he's noticed in some of his work

892
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:18,800
Speaker 1: is that people who are being authentic and revealing things

893
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:23,560
Speaker 1: like uh, talking about you know, coming out videos or

894
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,920
Speaker 1: coming out of crass, coming out of gay or coming

895
00:48:26,920 --> 00:48:30,400
Speaker 1: out as you know, having some sort of trauma or whatever,

896
00:48:31,160 --> 00:48:35,279
Speaker 1: people really respond to that that it's a way that

897
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 1: people can gain followers and gain status. And he told

898
00:48:40,200 --> 00:48:42,440
Speaker 1: me in my students just like I said, not, I

899
00:48:42,480 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: don't know this as well. So but what he's told

900
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: me in certain people will just do these coming out

901
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:51,400
Speaker 1: videos over and over. What do you mean so meaning

902
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:54,080
Speaker 1: they'll they'll do a video on YouTube and say, yeah,

903
00:48:54,080 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 1: I just you know, I want to talk about the

904
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,400
Speaker 1: depression I had in high school and how I almost

905
00:48:59,440 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: fill myself. Okay, I've never shared this before, and you

906
00:49:02,600 --> 00:49:07,799
Speaker 1: talk about it, and then six months later they go,

907
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:10,319
Speaker 1: you know that depression video works so well, they do

908
00:49:10,360 --> 00:49:13,719
Speaker 1: it again. We talked about this much, but let me

909
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 1: talk about some of the depression I suffered back in

910
00:49:16,520 --> 00:49:20,000
Speaker 1: high school. Wait, so this, well do it again. They'll

911
00:49:20,040 --> 00:49:22,920
Speaker 1: do it again. But that's okay. That's what my question

912
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,279
Speaker 1: is between like these lines of what is what is

913
00:49:27,560 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 1: like healthy or I don't even know healthy is the

914
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:32,880
Speaker 1: right word, but an appropriate amount of narcissism, and like

915
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,319
Speaker 1: what is the difference between what you just described and

916
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:40,239
Speaker 1: then like someone who's just authentically Like when you say that,

917
00:49:40,320 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: I started to think it through what I've done, because

918
00:49:42,080 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: I'm pretty open about a lot of my life. But

919
00:49:45,320 --> 00:49:49,000
Speaker 1: I always feel and I don't maybe I'm just completely

920
00:49:49,280 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: um not in touch with myself at all. I don't

921
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:54,840
Speaker 1: feel like that, but like what I feel is when

922
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 1: I'm like it feels like connecting with people, and like

923
00:49:58,200 --> 00:50:01,279
Speaker 1: when I feel in my au athentic self, when I'm

924
00:50:01,320 --> 00:50:04,560
Speaker 1: actually just being genuine about what's actually going on versus

925
00:50:04,600 --> 00:50:08,040
Speaker 1: like trying to make my life seem perfect or presenting

926
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: this perfect picture. And so for me, like I have

927
00:50:11,440 --> 00:50:14,239
Speaker 1: been really open, but am I just like the way

928
00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 1: you made it sound just now is that people use

929
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 1: that and kind of like I'm doing air quotes authenticity

930
00:50:20,840 --> 00:50:25,800
Speaker 1: to get more followers, which doesn't feel authentic at all. Actually,

931
00:50:26,920 --> 00:50:30,160
Speaker 1: so every time in nature there's something authentic like a

932
00:50:30,200 --> 00:50:33,359
Speaker 1: poisonous snake or that makes you sick if you eat it,

933
00:50:33,480 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 1: or a poisonous fish. There will be a mimic who

934
00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:39,640
Speaker 1: will do the same thing because it works, but they

935
00:50:39,640 --> 00:50:43,839
Speaker 1: won't have the authenticity. There will be a butterfly that's

936
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: poisonous that no one else eats, so all the birds

937
00:50:46,400 --> 00:50:48,360
Speaker 1: won't eat it, and it will bit another butterfly that

938
00:50:48,400 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 1: looks kind of the same that's pretty healthy, and so

939
00:50:52,560 --> 00:50:56,000
Speaker 1: and so what happens is um, when you have something

940
00:50:56,040 --> 00:50:59,799
Speaker 1: that people respond to, like authenticity at scale. So so

941
00:51:00,040 --> 00:51:02,879
Speaker 1: talking about you know, and this is a very powerful thing.

942
00:51:03,000 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: If you're willing to reveal things about yourself, people will

943
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:10,160
Speaker 1: respond to it. People will do that authentically because that's

944
00:51:10,239 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: other wire. They feel that there's anyway they feel there's

945
00:51:14,640 --> 00:51:19,920
Speaker 1: an authentic self and an inauthentic self. Other people don't

946
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,680
Speaker 1: have that same wiring. They're they're more willing to kind

947
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,759
Speaker 1: of shift theirselves around for the situation. And in the

948
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:29,040
Speaker 1: West we see that it's sort of manipulative or inauthentic,

949
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:31,759
Speaker 1: but some sometimes that might not see it's just that

950
00:51:31,840 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: it could be called acting and there could be a

951
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: skill um and some people will will use acting to

952
00:51:40,680 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 1: to kind of get the same rewards, so rather than

953
00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,800
Speaker 1: real tears, their tears might be inauthentic, but in their eyes,

954
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: they're like, look, it's working. I'm doing this performance and

955
00:51:53,200 --> 00:51:56,160
Speaker 1: people are people are responding to it in an authentic,

956
00:51:56,200 --> 00:51:59,120
Speaker 1: emotional way, just as like if I recited to play

957
00:51:59,200 --> 00:52:04,239
Speaker 1: by Yates or play the George Martin song and see

958
00:52:04,239 --> 00:52:06,399
Speaker 1: the sad country guy, I'm trying. I'm sorry, I'm trying

959
00:52:06,440 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 1: to relate to your audience. With George Martin. George Jones

960
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 1: was like, yes, yes, I was going to. I mixed

961
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:21,080
Speaker 1: up the rat pack with it with the country pack.

962
00:52:24,320 --> 00:52:26,880
Speaker 1: But you know, but but you know, like you know,

963
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 1: George Jones, if that guy crying every time he sings

964
00:52:29,880 --> 00:52:32,560
Speaker 1: the song, you know, the rooms in the house, I mean,

965
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,399
Speaker 1: it's it's a performance, so so I like to think

966
00:52:36,440 --> 00:52:38,960
Speaker 1: that there's a lot of room there, and you know,

967
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:41,279
Speaker 1: and some people are like, look, I can perform and

968
00:52:41,320 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: really do this, and maybe I don't feel it, but

969
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:45,840
Speaker 1: I perform, and other people like I really wanted to

970
00:52:45,880 --> 00:52:53,040
Speaker 1: be authentic, um, but that that connection um of revealing

971
00:52:53,120 --> 00:52:57,000
Speaker 1: parts of yourself is really an important way to form relationships.

972
00:52:57,239 --> 00:52:59,719
Speaker 1: But everybody and that you form them all the time

973
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 1: doing you you know, you tell and usually it works

974
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:05,000
Speaker 1: and you say, yeah, I hear something about myself and

975
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:08,359
Speaker 1: I said, yeah, here's something about it. Myself vulnerable too,

976
00:53:08,400 --> 00:53:11,000
Speaker 1: and we both we both kind of share these things

977
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 1: a little bit and get to know each other. Um.

978
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: So it's a it's a it's a really powerful way

979
00:53:15,560 --> 00:53:17,719
Speaker 1: to bring people together. But I can use that on

980
00:53:17,840 --> 00:53:20,040
Speaker 1: social media to look, I'm in the share part of myself.

981
00:53:20,080 --> 00:53:22,080
Speaker 1: Everyone in the audience is going, I'm in a share

982
00:53:22,120 --> 00:53:25,000
Speaker 1: part of myself with you. And all of a a sudden,

983
00:53:25,200 --> 00:53:29,840
Speaker 1: like a thousand fans, you think we're buddies, But aren't

984
00:53:29,880 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: you kind of in some ways like I didn't you

985
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:35,279
Speaker 1: connect on the same on a level of understanding of

986
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 1: each other? I mean, maybe you do, you know, I

987
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:45,720
Speaker 1: think so. I mean I have, you know, relationships with

988
00:53:45,719 --> 00:53:49,399
Speaker 1: with artists and and did I who I've never met,

989
00:53:49,480 --> 00:53:53,160
Speaker 1: but I feel like I understand their emotions, you know.

990
00:53:53,200 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 1: I listened to their lyrics and helps me understand how

991
00:53:56,360 --> 00:54:00,799
Speaker 1: I'm feeling. Um. You know, so I think I don't

992
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:02,799
Speaker 1: want to say all this stuff that's good or all

993
00:54:02,800 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: this stuff is bad. I trying to look at I

994
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:08,840
Speaker 1: try to look at things as much as possible as tradeoffs. Yeah.

995
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,600
Speaker 1: Actually really like that tradeoff piece. I think that's huge,

996
00:54:13,800 --> 00:54:17,080
Speaker 1: especially in you know, in businesses that involved, you know,

997
00:54:17,160 --> 00:54:22,640
Speaker 1: being attractive and getting people to like you just going

998
00:54:22,680 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: to be a tradeoff and being in the public eye.

999
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,799
Speaker 1: It's really hard to people. You've talked about that, Yeah,

1000
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:31,000
Speaker 1: but I mean it can be even in everyday life,

1001
00:54:31,000 --> 00:54:32,959
Speaker 1: even if you're not in the public eye, Like you said,

1002
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 1: when you go to work, you might have to put

1003
00:54:34,520 --> 00:54:37,600
Speaker 1: on a certain demeanor that if you take home, is

1004
00:54:38,120 --> 00:54:41,200
Speaker 1: not gonna consistently work in your relationships. And so I

1005
00:54:41,239 --> 00:54:44,000
Speaker 1: think that's like an interesting the tradeoff piece or like

1006
00:54:44,040 --> 00:54:47,919
Speaker 1: you could be one way but maybe not all the time. Yes,

1007
00:54:48,080 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: and and being flexible with you you are in saying

1008
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,840
Speaker 1: look on this way, here, on this way, here, underneath

1009
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:56,920
Speaker 1: it all, I try to be a moral, ethical person

1010
00:54:57,040 --> 00:55:00,640
Speaker 1: who wants to grow and be you know, learn and grow. Yeah,

1011
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,440
Speaker 1: do good. And you know I have this broader self,

1012
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 1: but I'm willing to modify it in different environments, um

1013
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 1: to kind of get what I need and be a

1014
00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: better person. Right, So what do we need to be

1015
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,920
Speaker 1: on the lookout, Because I mean your book really kind

1016
00:55:13,920 --> 00:55:16,280
Speaker 1: of details the way you guys are measuring it these days.

1017
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:18,239
Speaker 1: I do highly recommend this to you guys if you

1018
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:21,640
Speaker 1: are interested in narcissism. It was very fascinating to me.

1019
00:55:21,719 --> 00:55:26,040
Speaker 1: You also really break down um narcissism and relationships, which

1020
00:55:26,640 --> 00:55:28,279
Speaker 1: for me personally, it was a really great thing. I

1021
00:55:28,280 --> 00:55:30,080
Speaker 1: didn't know you had another book called When You Love

1022
00:55:30,080 --> 00:55:32,520
Speaker 1: a Man who Loves Himself. I'm like going to order

1023
00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:37,520
Speaker 1: that a music go ahead, And I always say I

1024
00:55:37,560 --> 00:55:40,360
Speaker 1: wrote that when you love hi man loves Himself. I

1025
00:55:40,400 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: wrote that when I was a assistant professor and I

1026
00:55:44,960 --> 00:55:47,600
Speaker 1: went to so many dinners with women who are like,

1027
00:55:47,960 --> 00:55:50,239
Speaker 1: you're talking about my ex husband. Yeah, you know, you're

1028
00:55:50,239 --> 00:55:53,400
Speaker 1: talking about my ex boyfriend. I just kind of wrote it.

1029
00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 1: So the data, but it it gets those ideas across.

1030
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 1: I think that was the goal a least. Well, So

1031
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: what is it that we need to be on the

1032
00:56:02,400 --> 00:56:05,799
Speaker 1: lookout for situations like that, like in relationships and then

1033
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 1: also situations with yourself, Because as I said, I was

1034
00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,880
Speaker 1: reading this book kind of noticing some things that I

1035
00:56:11,920 --> 00:56:13,960
Speaker 1: was like, hmmm, I do kind of do that sometimes

1036
00:56:13,960 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 1: and maybe I don't like love that about myself. So

1037
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:18,719
Speaker 1: what should we be on the lookout and when is

1038
00:56:18,760 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: it a worrisome trait versus or when is it a

1039
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:26,279
Speaker 1: just a part of your personality trait to then like

1040
00:56:26,320 --> 00:56:32,080
Speaker 1: a worrisome trait or maybe even a disorder. Yeah, so, um,

1041
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:36,360
Speaker 1: the looking at other people piece is it's hard because

1042
00:56:36,480 --> 00:56:39,640
Speaker 1: people who are really narcissistic don't often present that way.

1043
00:56:39,840 --> 00:56:42,719
Speaker 1: If they want you to like them, they might act

1044
00:56:42,800 --> 00:56:45,799
Speaker 1: that way if you're just waiting tables on them, but

1045
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:50,239
Speaker 1: if you're in a dating situation or workplace you're hiring them,

1046
00:56:50,280 --> 00:56:54,080
Speaker 1: you know, you don't see it necessarily, right. So one

1047
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:56,880
Speaker 1: big thing to do with people's just look at their history.

1048
00:56:57,640 --> 00:57:00,840
Speaker 1: And people who an arcissistic love the history of wrecked

1049
00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:05,959
Speaker 1: relationships behind him. You'll see a trail of victims. Um,

1050
00:57:06,000 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 1: if you look and you see this, like with the

1051
00:57:08,000 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 1: meat too stuff, you're you know, one name will come

1052
00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:13,440
Speaker 1: up and they'll be ten other names. So there's often

1053
00:57:13,520 --> 00:57:16,240
Speaker 1: you know described it before as people are really narcissistic,

1054
00:57:16,320 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 1: almost being like hurricanes. They go through life and just

1055
00:57:18,880 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: leave a trail of destruction behind him, and they might

1056
00:57:22,160 --> 00:57:24,160
Speaker 1: seem really appealing, but you go back and you'll see

1057
00:57:24,160 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: that trail. But it's hard to do in yourself. You know,

1058
00:57:30,680 --> 00:57:34,200
Speaker 1: in our research and and and student Chelsea Sleep did

1059
00:57:34,200 --> 00:57:36,040
Speaker 1: a lot of this work. It was great, but she

1060
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,520
Speaker 1: asked people. You know, the idea was originally years ago.

1061
00:57:39,560 --> 00:57:42,240
Speaker 1: I thought people in arcissistic district care. They're like, I'm

1062
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,240
Speaker 1: a dick, but I don't care. I do only care

1063
00:57:44,240 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 1: about myself. It doesn't really matter. And we looked at

1064
00:57:48,480 --> 00:57:51,960
Speaker 1: hundreds of people and it really seems like people in

1065
00:57:52,120 --> 00:57:54,760
Speaker 1: arctostistics see it. It can be a problem. And where

1066
00:57:54,800 --> 00:57:58,520
Speaker 1: they see that problem, it's primarily interpersonal, meaning they just

1067
00:57:59,240 --> 00:58:02,280
Speaker 1: there's this idea I don't have the love or affection

1068
00:58:02,360 --> 00:58:05,560
Speaker 1: I need in my life. So they might say, yeah,

1069
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,680
Speaker 1: I need more narcissism, but work because I'm not successful enough.

1070
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 1: I need to be more aggressive, more competitive, more lookout

1071
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: for number one. But in my in my personal life,

1072
00:58:16,320 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: I want more love. And so my sense for people

1073
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:24,840
Speaker 1: is if if you feel you're missing connection or emotional intimacy,

1074
00:58:26,480 --> 00:58:29,400
Speaker 1: your capacity for love is smaller than it should be.

1075
00:58:29,440 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 1: I think those are things you can work on and

1076
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:34,120
Speaker 1: they're not going to mess up your work. You know,

1077
00:58:34,200 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: being a more loving person isn't going to make you

1078
00:58:36,360 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 1: a worse country music star. I mean it might It

1079
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,480
Speaker 1: might actually make you better because there's gonna be a

1080
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: you know, if somebody's gonna have to put together a

1081
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:49,600
Speaker 1: production shoot for something and I say, yeah, I want Keith.

1082
00:58:49,800 --> 00:58:52,360
Speaker 1: He's not a total jerk. He's easy to get along with.

1083
00:58:53,640 --> 00:58:56,000
Speaker 1: I don't want Keith, or I don't want Keith because

1084
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,880
Speaker 1: he's kind of a prima donna. You know, we don't

1085
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:01,760
Speaker 1: freaking diva. We don't need a diva on this site.

1086
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:06,360
Speaker 1: We just need people who are cool and and work.

1087
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 1: They talk about this sometimes it's the no asshole rules.

1088
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,360
Speaker 1: If you're that phrase, this is kind of a workplace

1089
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:16,120
Speaker 1: version of it. It's not too much celebrity, but people.

1090
00:59:16,240 --> 00:59:18,439
Speaker 1: You know, there's even a book called the no Asshole Rule,

1091
00:59:18,520 --> 00:59:21,560
Speaker 1: but it's a policy in hiring when you say, look,

1092
00:59:21,680 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: even though no matter how calendared this person is, if

1093
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:26,360
Speaker 1: they're if they're kind of a jerk, I don't want

1094
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 1: him around. And so this is something organizations will use

1095
00:59:30,960 --> 00:59:33,520
Speaker 1: just as a screening device, like I don't you know,

1096
00:59:33,680 --> 00:59:35,480
Speaker 1: I don't care how good you are. You've got to

1097
00:59:35,520 --> 00:59:39,760
Speaker 1: be a decent human being. So that that interpersonal piece,

1098
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:42,560
Speaker 1: being a nice person getting along with people, that's where

1099
00:59:42,600 --> 00:59:46,120
Speaker 1: I really try to focus. Okay, I really like that.

1100
00:59:46,440 --> 00:59:48,920
Speaker 1: The book is called The New Science of Narcissism. It

1101
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:52,200
Speaker 1: comes out September twenty nine. UM Dr Campbell. Where else

1102
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:59,240
Speaker 1: can people find you? Uh W Keith Campbell dot com?

1103
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:05,080
Speaker 1: What site? And UM Narcissism Lab dot com. We put

1104
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:08,000
Speaker 1: together a site with some of the narcissism tesla and

1105
01:00:08,040 --> 01:00:10,280
Speaker 1: there if people want to try umph. I think we've

1106
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 1: got three up there, the NPI and a Vulnerable measure

1107
01:00:14,680 --> 01:00:18,640
Speaker 1: UM to those two places. Nice. Okay, well, you guys

1108
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:20,240
Speaker 1: go check him out. Like I said, the book comes

1109
01:00:20,240 --> 01:00:22,600
Speaker 1: out on September twenty nine. I'm gonna put the link

1110
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:27,080
Speaker 1: to purchase it in my bio of this podcast, especially

1111
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:29,280
Speaker 1: if you know anything about narcissism. I do feel like

1112
01:00:29,280 --> 01:00:31,800
Speaker 1: this book dives into like a little deeper of the

1113
01:00:31,920 --> 01:00:34,440
Speaker 1: study of how you guys are measuring it now, what

1114
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,080
Speaker 1: you're learning. It was just it was very, very interesting

1115
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,360
Speaker 1: to me. So I really appreciate you being here and

1116
01:00:40,440 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 1: sharing all of that with us, and you guys go

1117
01:00:43,600 --> 01:00:45,640
Speaker 1: check out the book and thank you guys for listening.