WEBVTT - #332 Jason Flom with Dean Gillispie 0:00:02.480 --> 0:00:05.440 In August nineteen eighty eight, a serial rapist had already 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:09.719 struck twice in Dayton, Ohio, claiming three victims. The victims 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:12.640 descriptions of the assailant, as well as the event itself, 0:00:12.760 --> 0:00:16.400 were almost identical. The assailant pretended to be a security 0:00:16.400 --> 0:00:19.720 guardner's shopping center and accused the victims of shoplifting before 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:22.599 using their cars to drive them off into the woods 0:00:22.600 --> 0:00:26.920 to be orally sodomized and assaulted. He called himself Roger. 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:32.040 A composite sketch finally generated a long awaited lead. Roger 0:00:32.120 --> 0:00:34.960 Dean Gillespie was identified as a possible match by his 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.720 direct supervisor at work, although he typically went by Dean. 0:00:39.320 --> 0:00:42.120 All three victims identified him out of a photo lineup, 0:00:42.159 --> 0:00:45.560 and again later at his trial, sending him away for 0:00:45.720 --> 0:00:49.960 up to fifty six years. So it seems like that's 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:54.360 all there is to this story. But this is wrongful conviction. 0:01:08.040 --> 0:01:11.320 Welcome back to wrongful conviction. If I sound a little 0:01:11.360 --> 0:01:14.399 more sprightly than usual, it's because of the guy I'm 0:01:14.440 --> 0:01:17.440 going to be interviewing, who's got this infectious energy and 0:01:17.520 --> 0:01:22.039 smile and has just transcended this insane ordeal that he 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:26.000 went through so I am really excited today to have 0:01:26.080 --> 0:01:31.679 my friend Dean Gillespie on the show. Dean, Welcome to 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:35.440 Wrongful Conviction, Thank you, sir. And with Dean is the 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:38.560 co founder of the Hioliness's Project. Dean's case was their 0:01:38.800 --> 0:01:42.080 very first once, so we're very happy and honored to 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:43.560 have Mark Gotzi here with us. 0:01:43.840 --> 0:01:44.959 Thank you, happy to be here. 0:01:45.200 --> 0:01:48.120 And of course the other co founder was John Cranley, 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:49.880 who went on to become the mayor of Cincinnati, but 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.000 before all that, he worked to free innocent people like Dean. 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:56.000 So let's go back in time with YouTube. Dean, your 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:59.120 story is one that really needs to be told for 0:01:59.200 --> 0:02:03.800 so many reasons, from police misconduct, judicial misconduct, to what 0:02:03.920 --> 0:02:06.280 took place at your trial. We're more than half of 0:02:06.320 --> 0:02:10.040 the jury was ready to acquit before turning around and 0:02:10.160 --> 0:02:14.120 convicting you when they obviously had reasonable more than reasonable doubts, 0:02:14.280 --> 0:02:16.280 and then only for you and Mark to then turned 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.600 this whole thing around to make history in Ohio. But 0:02:19.120 --> 0:02:22.640 before any of this happened, you had like a really 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:23.440 good life. 0:02:23.760 --> 0:02:26.280 Well. I grew up in a middle class family. My 0:02:26.400 --> 0:02:29.320 dad worked at General Motors, my mother was a beautician, 0:02:29.600 --> 0:02:33.160 lived in a great neighborhood where the friends that were 0:02:33.240 --> 0:02:36.440 around me, you know, I knew my whole life. It's 0:02:36.440 --> 0:02:38.520 a beautiful place to grow up for me. I was 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:39.280 like beaver Cleaver. 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.359 What town was that in Fairborne, Ohio? 0:02:42.480 --> 0:02:46.280 Where the airplane was invented. I actually started working when 0:02:46.280 --> 0:02:48.680 I was fifteen with a friend of my dad's. He 0:02:48.800 --> 0:02:51.799 was a contractor. Then I graduated high school, my dad 0:02:51.840 --> 0:02:54.280 wanted me to go work at General Motors, which at 0:02:54.360 --> 0:02:56.320 that time was one of the best jobs in America. 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:59.400 You know, you get a GM, you were set. You know, 0:02:59.440 --> 0:03:02.720 my dad in the union, so he knew the right 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:06.240 union people to get me the job at the GM plant. 0:03:06.320 --> 0:03:09.239 I was going to the Community College for FI Science 0:03:09.280 --> 0:03:13.440 Technology to basically to get the job, which was a 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:16.760 plant protection at Geral Motors. And you're basically a fireman, 0:03:16.960 --> 0:03:20.320 so put in the applications. You know, Bam, there I 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:24.079 was with a cholb at Terrro Motors at eighteen. 0:03:24.560 --> 0:03:26.440 I mean that someone could get a job out of 0:03:26.520 --> 0:03:29.160 high school that would have them, you know, pretty much 0:03:29.200 --> 0:03:32.120 set up for life. Situations like that were dwindling a 0:03:32.240 --> 0:03:35.240 number even back then, so this was really a valuable 0:03:35.240 --> 0:03:38.160 position you had which sort of inadvertently made you a 0:03:38.200 --> 0:03:40.680 target for a particularly unscrupulous person. 0:03:40.920 --> 0:03:44.800 What we figured out during the course of this was 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:49.080 the boss at GM, which is a management non union. 0:03:49.280 --> 0:03:52.000 This guy was the head of security the five different 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:56.480 plants and GM and Dayton, and he had a friend 0:03:56.520 --> 0:04:01.800 who he wanted to get the job, so he don't 0:04:01.920 --> 0:04:04.760 like me now because I got the job. And this 0:04:04.800 --> 0:04:07.920 guy would just stirring up crap with me and harassing 0:04:08.000 --> 0:04:10.920 me and just you know, dalking down to me and everything. 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.680 But you know, subsequently we come to find out that 0:04:14.800 --> 0:04:17.280 he was so mad about it. We've proven four times 0:04:17.320 --> 0:04:20.599 in federal court that he was taking my information from 0:04:20.720 --> 0:04:23.840 General Motors to the police department he used to work at, 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:26.600 where his buddy was the head of the police department, 0:04:26.720 --> 0:04:29.760 trying to get me hooked up on something. Wow, because 0:04:29.760 --> 0:04:32.559 it's a union shop. You just can't fire somebody because 0:04:32.600 --> 0:04:34.839 you don't like him. You have to have, you know, 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.440 some kind of reason. That reason would be me getting 0:04:37.440 --> 0:04:39.480 locked up and not showing up the work. 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:43.320 And this sinister fock's name was Richard Wolfe, who then 0:04:43.600 --> 0:04:48.080 did what he had already done previously when he heard 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.159 about the crimes were about to talk about it. Now 0:04:50.160 --> 0:04:53.240 this was August nineteen eighty eight. There were two gruesome 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.440 sex crimes, one on August fifth, and then the second 0:04:56.520 --> 0:05:00.000 one involving two victims, was on August twentieth. The second 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.520 one was reported first though. There were twenty two year 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:05.279 old twin sisters. We're going to call them CW and BW. 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:08.280 This is around seven pm as they were getting into 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:11.080 their car outside of a Best Product store in Dayton, Ohio, 0:05:11.160 --> 0:05:13.840 and they were kidnapped by a loan gunman. He then 0:05:14.000 --> 0:05:16.200 said that he was a store security guard and his 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:17.239 name was Roger. 0:05:17.600 --> 0:05:17.800 Yeah. 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:21.480 So the perpetrator sort of accused them of shoplifting, had 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:23.479 a gun, and said you got to come with me, 0:05:23.960 --> 0:05:25.720 pretending like you know, I'm going to take you around 0:05:25.839 --> 0:05:28.360 the little you know, mall cop police station we've got 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.160 here or whatever. Instead, he takes them off into the woods. 0:05:31.279 --> 0:05:34.200 When they got there, he exposed himself fonald their breasts 0:05:34.240 --> 0:05:36.680 and forced them to perform oral sex on him. He 0:05:36.720 --> 0:05:39.440 then blindfolded both women and forced them to lie down 0:05:39.440 --> 0:05:41.719 in the backseat while he drove back to the Best 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:42.560 Product store. 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.599 So there were some distinctive things that the perpetrator said 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.120 and did. Specifically, he would say things like, you know, 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.200 I'm a contract killer for the CIA. I gain one 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.520 thousand dollars per hit. He had cigarettes, you know, was smoking. 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.680 He mentioned at one point how he does this to 0:05:56.720 --> 0:05:59.080 women because he was molested by his grandfather when he 0:05:59.120 --> 0:06:01.600 was twelve. He said he was from Corpus Christi, Texas. 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:03.640 At one point he said he's from Columbus, Ohio. 0:06:03.800 --> 0:06:06.600 He then fled with money from their purses, as well 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:09.680 as a lighter and a pack of cigarettes. Now here's 0:06:09.720 --> 0:06:11.640 the thing, Like these women reported this, this is all to 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:13.359 the police. And around the same time, a twenty eight 0:06:13.440 --> 0:06:15.679 year old woman who were going to call SC totally 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.040 separates that reported that a man wearing sunglasses and armed 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:22.000 with a chrome handgun abducted her Samemo on August fifth. 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:26.200 Yeah, what happened is SC read the newspaper report of 0:06:26.200 --> 0:06:28.280 what happened to the twins. You know, once she read 0:06:28.279 --> 0:06:30.520 the similarities, she decided she was going to come forward. 0:06:30.839 --> 0:06:33.040 This woman said the attacker got into her car when 0:06:33.040 --> 0:06:35.120 she came out of a store in a different shopping center. 0:06:35.240 --> 0:06:37.919 This guy identified himself, according to her, as a security 0:06:37.920 --> 0:06:40.000 guard and said his name was Roger. He ordered her 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.160 to drive behind a vacant building where he finled her 0:06:42.160 --> 0:06:43.919 breast and force her to perform oral sex. 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.040 So it was pretty clear to the police that the 0:06:46.080 --> 0:06:49.799 same guy was responsible for all three victims in both events. 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:53.080 Were rape kits done? Was there any testing done on 0:06:53.160 --> 0:06:56.600 any of this type of you know, whether zerological or 0:06:56.720 --> 0:06:58.440 other biological evidence? 0:06:58.680 --> 0:07:02.359 The BWNC a case, there was rape gets done on, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:03.960 We know that for sure. 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.200 You know, they collected semen on the sweater of one 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.080 of the victims, and there were hairs that were collected, 0:07:10.200 --> 0:07:12.920 you know. Unfortunately, this was an eighty eight you know, 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:17.360 before really DNA testing was known and widely used criminal investigations. 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:20.920 So the items in question that the perpetrator touched or 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:23.720 might have deposited biological material on were given back to 0:07:23.720 --> 0:07:26.680 the victims by the police. So any chance for DNA 0:07:26.760 --> 0:07:28.200 testing was sort of ruined. 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:30.000 Right, But no one even knew that until much later 0:07:30.040 --> 0:07:32.120 when the Ohio Innos project kind of involved. But in 0:07:32.160 --> 0:07:34.840 the immediate aftermath, there were these hairs that they would 0:07:34.880 --> 0:07:38.000 eventually try to match with suspects by using hair microscopy, 0:07:38.160 --> 0:07:40.920 which is a well known junk science. But they've actually 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:44.120 got to find the suspects first, So They relied on 0:07:44.160 --> 0:07:46.960 a composite sketch from the detailed descriptions that they had 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.360 received from all three victims, and the descriptions were consistent. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.400 Yeah, so they were very consistent all three victims. So 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.160 he had his shirt unbuttoned and you could see this 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.760 big like rap medallion, very dark tan. 0:07:59.040 --> 0:07:59.720 This was August. 0:08:00.160 --> 0:08:03.720 Had acne along the jaw line, and he had very 0:08:03.720 --> 0:08:06.680 specific color of hairs, brown with a reddish tint. And 0:08:06.720 --> 0:08:09.920 they described him as tall and kind of a big guy, 0:08:10.120 --> 0:08:12.080 and something like between one eighty and two fifty. I 0:08:12.120 --> 0:08:14.600 think there was a pretty broad range. The pant size 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:17.760 that they one of them provided was smaller would be 0:08:17.800 --> 0:08:19.880 a guy more like, you know, one hundred and eighty pounds, 0:08:19.880 --> 0:08:21.120 two hundred pounds something like that. 0:08:21.280 --> 0:08:25.480 So, Dean, did any of those very specific details match you. 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:28.000 No, they said the guy who attacked him had a 0:08:28.080 --> 0:08:31.520 dark sun tan. I'm very irish. I burn and I 0:08:31.600 --> 0:08:34.480 go back to white. You know. The person who attacked 0:08:34.559 --> 0:08:37.640 him did not have a hairy chest because the medallion. 0:08:38.080 --> 0:08:39.920 I got a bear suit on. I'm covered in hair. 0:08:40.559 --> 0:08:43.800 The person who attacked him had severe acne scars on 0:08:43.880 --> 0:08:46.800 both sides of his jawline. I did not have any 0:08:46.840 --> 0:08:49.960 of that stuff. The person who attacked him did not 0:08:50.120 --> 0:08:53.760 have a cleft chin. I've got a cleft chin. I 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:57.760 started having gray hair on my temples in the tenth grade. 0:08:57.920 --> 0:08:59.960 Which is a feature that the victims would have mentioned 0:08:59.920 --> 0:09:02.880 it been you. And also, I understand that you have 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:04.239 always hated cigarettes. 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.080 I absolutely hate cigarettes. My dad smoked most of my 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:10.000 life and I could I can't stand smell them. So 0:09:10.880 --> 0:09:13.280 why am I even being looked at as a suspect? 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:17.079 And you had no idea that your moss Richard Wolf 0:09:17.200 --> 0:09:19.120 had it out for you. This bad I mean, on 0:09:19.200 --> 0:09:21.840 its face, the only thing about this crime that has 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:25.199 any connection to you was the name Roger. Now, your 0:09:25.240 --> 0:09:28.080 full name is Roger Dean Gillespie, but you've always gone 0:09:28.120 --> 0:09:31.400 by Dean. But by the time you had been considered 0:09:31.760 --> 0:09:34.000 for this crime, a lot of time had passed by, 0:09:34.080 --> 0:09:36.680 the case had gotten cold. So since it wasn't fresh 0:09:36.760 --> 0:09:38.720 in the headlines, do we know what prompted him to 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:39.800 try to bring you in. No. 0:09:39.960 --> 0:09:42.960 He says that he's seen a newspaper article on a 0:09:42.960 --> 0:09:46.400 bulletin board in the plant, and he went down and said, hey, 0:09:46.840 --> 0:09:49.560 check this guy out. And the first time that he 0:09:49.640 --> 0:09:52.920 went down there. He was seeing the detectives who were 0:09:52.960 --> 0:09:55.760 in charge of that case when it very first started, 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.400 so they knew the case inside and out. They looked 0:09:58.400 --> 0:10:02.520 at my DMV license and seeing that I didn't fit 0:10:02.559 --> 0:10:06.120 the description at all. They knew the pants size, and 0:10:06.160 --> 0:10:08.280 when they looked at the hide and weight on me, 0:10:08.600 --> 0:10:11.760 they knew I couldn't fit into pants, which I always 0:10:11.800 --> 0:10:14.080 say one time in my life being fat was good 0:10:14.080 --> 0:10:14.400 for me. 0:10:14.960 --> 0:10:17.520 Well yeah, right, you would think. 0:10:17.800 --> 0:10:19.840 Yeah, so you know, they've done a little right up 0:10:19.880 --> 0:10:22.440 on it and disregarded me as a suspect, and that 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:24.760 was the end of it, you know with them. 0:10:25.200 --> 0:10:27.559 Yeah, so you know, Dean was eliminated as a suspect. 0:10:27.720 --> 0:10:30.920 Time went by. The detectives on the case who eliminated 0:10:31.000 --> 0:10:32.640 Dean retired and moved out of state. 0:10:32.800 --> 0:10:36.079 After they left. My boss his best friend who was 0:10:36.120 --> 0:10:39.520 the chief of police. The chief's son was a detective. Now, 0:10:40.120 --> 0:10:43.600 so my boss he went back with the same information 0:10:44.160 --> 0:10:47.440 and said, check this guy out. I think that when 0:10:47.520 --> 0:10:50.920 he was talking to this young new detective, with him 0:10:50.960 --> 0:10:54.360 being a ex police officer and understand how the system worked, 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:57.680 he was able to convince him that he was working 0:10:57.720 --> 0:10:59.520 in the right track. And in the right guy. 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.080 Detectives more twenty six years old, takes over the case 0:11:02.320 --> 0:11:05.400 and the filed eliminating Dean disappears and we don't know 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.199 what happened to it. He just decides I'm going to 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.319 go out and show the victims a photo spread with Dean. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.800 And you know, you look at the photo spread, it's 0:11:11.840 --> 0:11:14.000 clear that the other five came from the same source. 0:11:14.160 --> 0:11:16.560 Dean's was a glossy and the other ones were matts. 0:11:16.600 --> 0:11:19.160 He's got a different color background. The victims to described 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:22.240 the perpetrators having a wide face, So the picture used 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:24.280 of Dean is like his face is taking up the 0:11:24.400 --> 0:11:26.440 entire square, so it makes his head look really big 0:11:26.480 --> 0:11:29.000 and his face wide, whereas the other five are all 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:31.480 like back more like torso shots. And so if you 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:33.920 look at it, you go five of these are fillers, 0:11:34.040 --> 0:11:37.320 which one doesn't fit clearly it's this one. 0:11:37.480 --> 0:11:41.040 First off, I have no animosity toward the victims in 0:11:41.120 --> 0:11:44.320 this case because they were done wrong and they were 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:47.600 lied to, just like I was. And you got to remember, 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.319 this case is two and a half years old. 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.720 And studies show that you know when it's a stranger rape, 0:11:52.720 --> 0:11:56.160 your ability to identify accurately decreases steadily from the time 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:59.240 it happens, and it's essentially down to chance by eleven months. 0:11:59.360 --> 0:12:01.560 And so you're sticking a photo spread up in front 0:12:01.600 --> 0:12:05.480 of somebody two years after the fact with an extremely 0:12:05.720 --> 0:12:08.280 suggestive lineup. That's a very dangerous situation. 0:12:08.679 --> 0:12:12.160 Yeah, I mean, they were revictimized, right, but now with 0:12:12.240 --> 0:12:15.240 the victims identifying you, they had what they needed to 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:18.320 get an arrest warrant, even though, as we've already mentioned, 0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.720 other than the name Roger, you and the assailant had 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.760 very little in common. It's why the initial lead detectives 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:26.559 eliminated you as a suspect. And there's more that they 0:12:26.600 --> 0:12:31.080 discovered that should have eliminated you again, but tunnel vision 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:34.360 and you know, perhaps maybe the detective Scott More, feeling 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.559 some kind of twisted obligation to his father's best friend, 0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.960 may have been why they continued their pursuit of you. 0:12:41.120 --> 0:12:41.360 Dean. 0:12:41.440 --> 0:12:44.520 I mean, when did you first find out that you 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:46.280 were being targeted in this way? 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:49.840 I got a letter called a demand letter to come 0:12:49.880 --> 0:12:54.720 into the police department, and because I'm a dumbass, I 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:59.440 went in and he questioned me about these incidents. Where 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.199 were you at on this day, which was two years before. 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:04.120 Who knows where they were at two years ago, But 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.560 because I didn't know, he felt like I wasn't answering 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:09.960 his questions. So weeks later is when they came to 0:13:10.080 --> 0:13:12.840 the house. They tore my house apart. You know, there's 0:13:12.840 --> 0:13:15.360 supposed to be a gun involved and everything else. I 0:13:15.360 --> 0:13:18.520 didn't have guns. There was no clothing or anything that 0:13:18.600 --> 0:13:21.720 even came close to the type of attire this person 0:13:21.840 --> 0:13:22.200 was wearing. 0:13:22.240 --> 0:13:24.959 Okay, so that you're arrested and taking out in jail. 0:13:24.800 --> 0:13:27.720 We go through the arraiement and everything. They reduced the 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:30.960 bond down enough for me to get out, and I 0:13:31.000 --> 0:13:33.959 am in a frantic mode to try to figure out 0:13:34.000 --> 0:13:37.120 where I was at during this time. And I was 0:13:37.320 --> 0:13:40.520 very lucky enough to have two friends who kept calendars 0:13:40.520 --> 0:13:44.160 of events. You know, I was in Morehead, Kentucky on 0:13:44.160 --> 0:13:46.360 one of the days of these crimes that took place 0:13:46.840 --> 0:13:49.800 with my friends. We were skinning and fishing and just 0:13:49.840 --> 0:13:53.200 having fun at the lake. And the other one we 0:13:53.200 --> 0:13:55.800 were with some friends who had came in from college 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:56.880 and we were out with them. 0:13:57.280 --> 0:14:01.199 Unfortunately, alibi witnesses are often easily explained away by the prosecution. 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.720 As people who are willing to lie for you, including 0:14:03.720 --> 0:14:07.400 about your ability to tan. They had photographic evidence of 0:14:07.440 --> 0:14:09.360 how it would have been impossible for you to tan, 0:14:09.559 --> 0:14:11.880 but it had no effect, nor did pointing out all 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:15.320 the other discrepancies, amongst so many other tactics. During pre 0:14:15.480 --> 0:14:18.520 Charlie defense tried to suppress the identifications for the same 0:14:18.600 --> 0:14:22.800 reasons we had mentioned earlier, which is how outrageously suggested 0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:23.720 the lineups were. 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:26.200 It's harder to get these things suppressed even when they're suggestive. 0:14:26.240 --> 0:14:26.920 We see this a lot. 0:14:27.160 --> 0:14:29.920 The current case law by the Supreme Court is completely 0:14:29.960 --> 0:14:32.640 out of date, doesn't reflect science, and that needs a 0:14:32.720 --> 0:14:35.120 change eventually. But yeah, they allowed it in and they 0:14:35.120 --> 0:14:36.080 allowed the identification. 0:14:36.480 --> 0:14:38.520 So I want our audience to take notice here these 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:42.000 are the steps that our guests, usually incompetent attorneys, did 0:14:42.000 --> 0:14:45.640 not take. That you might be telling yourself that you'd 0:14:45.680 --> 0:14:49.680 make sure that you and your lawyer would take. But 0:14:49.720 --> 0:14:52.760 it still made no difference to judge allowed in the IDs, 0:14:52.800 --> 0:14:55.160 and the jury was not moved by the alby witnesses 0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:57.920 nor any of the discrepancies between Dean and the assailant, 0:14:58.040 --> 0:15:01.160 so he was found guilty. But the war sentencing a 0:15:01.240 --> 0:15:04.240 defense investigator learned that hairs recovered from the victims that 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:06.440 were said to have been lost had not only not 0:15:06.560 --> 0:15:09.640 been lost, but the crime lab had actually tested them 0:15:09.640 --> 0:15:12.160 against Dean and excluded him. 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.760 They found some hairs that had been on the victim's 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:17.280 sweaters from the August twentieth event with the twins, and 0:15:17.440 --> 0:15:20.200 they did not belong to Dean Glyspie, and so he 0:15:20.280 --> 0:15:22.080 got a new trial where they could introduce that the 0:15:22.080 --> 0:15:24.360 hairs found on the victims did not belong to Dean Gilyspian. 0:15:24.560 --> 0:15:24.680 Right. 0:15:24.720 --> 0:15:27.360 This seemed compelling at the time, but har microscopy is 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:30.480 shaky science. At best. You might be able to eliminate 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:34.320 someone from inclusion, but making a match with any degree 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:37.160 of certainty is total horseshit. It could be said that 0:15:37.360 --> 0:15:40.360 practitioners of this junk science might be willing to say anything, 0:15:40.360 --> 0:15:43.000 but this is the state's evidence, and given the opportunity, 0:15:43.040 --> 0:15:45.920 they still didn't try to budge the evidence and fix 0:15:45.960 --> 0:15:49.760 it on Dean. But the idea that he could simply 0:15:49.880 --> 0:15:53.240 not have physically been the man they were describing should 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:56.040 have been enough on top of his alibi, for which 0:15:56.040 --> 0:15:59.640 there were over twenty witnesses. So Dean what do you 0:15:59.720 --> 0:16:01.480 remember about the second trial? 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:05.800 Things got weird because one of my friends is a 0:16:05.800 --> 0:16:12.080 pretty proficient smart ass, and when the prosecutor asked him, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:16.600 do you know Roger Gillespie, he said, I sure do, 0:16:16.920 --> 0:16:19.400 and he said he's in the courtroom and he said 0:16:19.440 --> 0:16:22.160 he sure is, and he said, will you pointing him 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.600 out to us, and he said, he's the guy in 0:16:24.680 --> 0:16:28.200 the back sitting with the gray haired lady, which was 0:16:28.240 --> 0:16:31.360 my mom and dad. Because my name is Roger Dean 0:16:31.400 --> 0:16:33.760 Gillespie my whole entire life. The only name I've ever 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.160 used is Dean Gillespie. My dad is Roger. All my friends, 0:16:37.280 --> 0:16:39.080 some of them didn't even know that my first name 0:16:39.160 --> 0:16:42.280 was Roger. So when he got off the stand, the 0:16:42.320 --> 0:16:46.040 prosecutor went to a sidebar we had twenty two other 0:16:46.080 --> 0:16:49.560 people to testify for me, and complained that all these 0:16:49.600 --> 0:16:51.920 people grew up with me, they knew me my whole life, 0:16:52.000 --> 0:16:54.080 and they were going to life for me, and they 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:57.560 cut all of the rest of the witnesses on my side. 0:16:57.800 --> 0:16:59.680 Wow, that's is that legal? 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:01.480 It worked? 0:17:01.480 --> 0:17:05.040 Then there was more than just these witnesses that he 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:07.280 had an extreme dislike for cigarettes. 0:17:07.400 --> 0:17:10.280 They had pictures of him before all this happened inside 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.080 his truck on the dashboard. He had a thank you 0:17:12.119 --> 0:17:14.800 for not smoking plastic sticker, like a bumper sticker. He's 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:17.840 stuck on his dashboard and he's like the most irish, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:19.880 whitest guy ever. I mean, you know, you have these 0:17:19.880 --> 0:17:22.200 pictures of him before all this happened, where he's out 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:24.240 at lakes with all his friends and they're in boats 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:25.879 and they're skiing, and then you know, they'd be in 0:17:26.160 --> 0:17:28.480 drinking beers that night and everybody's really tan, and he's 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:30.919 like beat red, even though he had sunscreen on and 0:17:31.040 --> 0:17:34.400 a T shirt, so he literally cannot tan. On top 0:17:34.440 --> 0:17:36.879 of that, he's somebody. It's a family trait that had 0:17:36.920 --> 0:17:39.040 been going gray since ninth grade. In high school. They 0:17:39.040 --> 0:17:42.359 called him the silver Fox, and the victims were very 0:17:42.400 --> 0:17:44.879 specific that it was brown with a reddish tent. He 0:17:44.880 --> 0:17:46.920 didn't have a reddish tent. And they were asked on 0:17:46.960 --> 0:17:48.399 the stand did he have any gray, and they all 0:17:48.440 --> 0:17:48.880 said no. 0:17:49.359 --> 0:17:54.160 There was all this evidence, and sure enough it resonated 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:55.000 with the jury. 0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:59.760 I think it was two days they deliberated, and they 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.400 came out eight to four, eight for acquittal, four for conviction, 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.919 and the judge told him to go to lunch and 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:10.840 come back and study on it some more. They came 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.520 back out again at eight to four. 0:18:14.080 --> 0:18:16.760 You know, it's actually kind of amazing that the jury 0:18:16.840 --> 0:18:18.960 was eight four for acquittal when you have three victims 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:21.639 on the stand crying who were actually raped, and you 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:23.359 have all that emotion and they're saying, I'm one hundred 0:18:23.359 --> 0:18:25.880 percent positive that's the guy. That guy's getting convicted, even 0:18:25.880 --> 0:18:28.439 if there's all these things that don't match. So you 0:18:28.440 --> 0:18:29.800 know the fact that they were eight to four to 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:32.639 acquit at the beginning, it shows you how bad the 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.280 case was against him. And then the judge gives them 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:37.480 what's called a dynamite charger, an Allen charge, and sends 0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:37.840 him back. 0:18:38.000 --> 0:18:41.919 And this is what happened after that. He said, I 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:45.040 have a fishing trip. I don't want to be here. 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:48.199 If you don't reach a verdict, You're going to be 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:51.960 sequestered until you do, which means you are going to 0:18:52.119 --> 0:18:55.920 leave here to a hotel, no contact, and we will 0:18:56.240 --> 0:19:01.240 come back in until you reach a verdict. Forty forty 0:19:01.240 --> 0:19:03.760 five minutes later, they just came back said all up, 0:19:03.760 --> 0:19:21.480 said Gilly, And like I say, I grew up in 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:27.479 just a great, beautiful world, and I go into a 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:32.119 close maximum security prison where seventy percent of these people 0:19:32.640 --> 0:19:36.440 are never getting out. Your life means nothing to them. 0:19:36.840 --> 0:19:40.320 The violence is overwhelming. You know, I've been in bar 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:42.800 fights or whatever as a kid, but I've never seen 0:19:42.840 --> 0:19:46.080 anything like this. You know, when you're in prison and 0:19:46.119 --> 0:19:48.960 you get into a fight, you are fighting for your 0:19:49.040 --> 0:19:52.320 life every time they want to test you. Soon as 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:53.760 you get in here, what are you gonna do? You know, 0:19:54.280 --> 0:19:56.480