1 00:00:02,480 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: In August nineteen eighty eight, a serial rapist had already 2 00:00:05,440 --> 00:00:09,719 Speaker 1: struck twice in Dayton, Ohio, claiming three victims. The victims 3 00:00:09,800 --> 00:00:12,640 Speaker 1: descriptions of the assailant, as well as the event itself, 4 00:00:12,760 --> 00:00:16,400 Speaker 1: were almost identical. The assailant pretended to be a security 5 00:00:16,400 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: guardner's shopping center and accused the victims of shoplifting before 6 00:00:19,840 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: using their cars to drive them off into the woods 7 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: to be orally sodomized and assaulted. He called himself Roger. 8 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:32,040 Speaker 1: A composite sketch finally generated a long awaited lead. Roger 9 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: Dean Gillespie was identified as a possible match by his 10 00:00:35,040 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 1: direct supervisor at work, although he typically went by Dean. 11 00:00:39,320 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: All three victims identified him out of a photo lineup, 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: and again later at his trial, sending him away for 13 00:00:45,720 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: up to fifty six years. So it seems like that's 14 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: all there is to this story. But this is wrongful conviction. 15 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: Welcome back to wrongful conviction. If I sound a little 16 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: more sprightly than usual, it's because of the guy I'm 17 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: going to be interviewing, who's got this infectious energy and 18 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:22,039 Speaker 1: smile and has just transcended this insane ordeal that he 19 00:01:22,080 --> 00:01:26,000 Speaker 1: went through so I am really excited today to have 20 00:01:26,080 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: my friend Dean Gillespie on the show. Dean, Welcome to 21 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction, Thank you, sir. And with Dean is the 22 00:01:35,480 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: co founder of the Hioliness's Project. Dean's case was their 23 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 1: very first once, so we're very happy and honored to 24 00:01:42,120 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: have Mark Gotzi here with us. 25 00:01:43,840 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 2: Thank you, happy to be here. 26 00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,120 Speaker 1: And of course the other co founder was John Cranley, 27 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:49,880 Speaker 1: who went on to become the mayor of Cincinnati, but 28 00:01:49,960 --> 00:01:53,000 Speaker 1: before all that, he worked to free innocent people like Dean. 29 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: So let's go back in time with YouTube. Dean, your 30 00:01:56,080 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 1: story is one that really needs to be told for 31 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,800 Speaker 1: so many reasons, from police misconduct, judicial misconduct, to what 32 00:02:03,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: took place at your trial. We're more than half of 33 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:10,040 Speaker 1: the jury was ready to acquit before turning around and 34 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:14,120 Speaker 1: convicting you when they obviously had reasonable more than reasonable doubts, 35 00:02:14,280 --> 00:02:16,280 Speaker 1: and then only for you and Mark to then turned 36 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,600 Speaker 1: this whole thing around to make history in Ohio. But 37 00:02:19,120 --> 00:02:22,640 Speaker 1: before any of this happened, you had like a really 38 00:02:22,760 --> 00:02:23,440 Speaker 1: good life. 39 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,280 Speaker 3: Well. I grew up in a middle class family. My 40 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,320 Speaker 3: dad worked at General Motors, my mother was a beautician, 41 00:02:29,600 --> 00:02:33,160 Speaker 3: lived in a great neighborhood where the friends that were 42 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 3: around me, you know, I knew my whole life. It's 43 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:38,520 Speaker 3: a beautiful place to grow up for me. I was 44 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:39,280 Speaker 3: like beaver Cleaver. 45 00:02:39,560 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: What town was that in Fairborne, Ohio? 46 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 3: Where the airplane was invented. I actually started working when 47 00:02:46,280 --> 00:02:48,680 Speaker 3: I was fifteen with a friend of my dad's. He 48 00:02:48,800 --> 00:02:51,799 Speaker 3: was a contractor. Then I graduated high school, my dad 49 00:02:51,840 --> 00:02:54,280 Speaker 3: wanted me to go work at General Motors, which at 50 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 3: that time was one of the best jobs in America. 51 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 3: You know, you get a GM, you were set. You know, 52 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:02,720 Speaker 3: my dad in the union, so he knew the right 53 00:03:02,800 --> 00:03:06,240 Speaker 3: union people to get me the job at the GM plant. 54 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 3: I was going to the Community College for FI Science 55 00:03:09,280 --> 00:03:13,440 Speaker 3: Technology to basically to get the job, which was a 56 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:16,760 Speaker 3: plant protection at Geral Motors. And you're basically a fireman, 57 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 3: so put in the applications. You know, Bam, there I 58 00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 3: was with a cholb at Terrro Motors at eighteen. 59 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 1: I mean that someone could get a job out of 60 00:03:26,520 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 1: high school that would have them, you know, pretty much 61 00:03:29,200 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 1: set up for life. Situations like that were dwindling a 62 00:03:32,240 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: number even back then, so this was really a valuable 63 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 1: position you had which sort of inadvertently made you a 64 00:03:38,200 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: target for a particularly unscrupulous person. 65 00:03:40,920 --> 00:03:44,800 Speaker 3: What we figured out during the course of this was 66 00:03:45,040 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 3: the boss at GM, which is a management non union. 67 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,000 Speaker 3: This guy was the head of security the five different 68 00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:56,480 Speaker 3: plants and GM and Dayton, and he had a friend 69 00:03:56,520 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 3: who he wanted to get the job, so he don't 70 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 3: like me now because I got the job. And this 71 00:04:04,800 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 3: guy would just stirring up crap with me and harassing 72 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:10,920 Speaker 3: me and just you know, dalking down to me and everything. 73 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 3: But you know, subsequently we come to find out that 74 00:04:14,800 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 3: he was so mad about it. We've proven four times 75 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:20,599 Speaker 3: in federal court that he was taking my information from 76 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:23,840 Speaker 3: General Motors to the police department he used to work at, 77 00:04:23,880 --> 00:04:26,600 Speaker 3: where his buddy was the head of the police department, 78 00:04:26,720 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 3: trying to get me hooked up on something. Wow, because 79 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:32,559 Speaker 3: it's a union shop. You just can't fire somebody because 80 00:04:32,600 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 3: you don't like him. You have to have, you know, 81 00:04:34,920 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 3: some kind of reason. That reason would be me getting 82 00:04:37,440 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 3: locked up and not showing up the work. 83 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:43,320 Speaker 1: And this sinister fock's name was Richard Wolfe, who then 84 00:04:43,600 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 1: did what he had already done previously when he heard 85 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:50,159 Speaker 1: about the crimes were about to talk about it. Now 86 00:04:50,160 --> 00:04:53,240 Speaker 1: this was August nineteen eighty eight. There were two gruesome 87 00:04:53,320 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 1: sex crimes, one on August fifth, and then the second 88 00:04:56,520 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: one involving two victims, was on August twentieth. The second 89 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,520 Speaker 1: one was reported first though. There were twenty two year 90 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:05,279 Speaker 1: old twin sisters. We're going to call them CW and BW. 91 00:05:05,800 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: This is around seven pm as they were getting into 92 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: their car outside of a Best Product store in Dayton, Ohio, 93 00:05:11,160 --> 00:05:13,840 Speaker 1: and they were kidnapped by a loan gunman. He then 94 00:05:14,000 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: said that he was a store security guard and his 95 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 1: name was Roger. 96 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 3: Yeah. 97 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 2: So the perpetrator sort of accused them of shoplifting, had 98 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,479 Speaker 2: a gun, and said you got to come with me, 99 00:05:23,960 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 2: pretending like you know, I'm going to take you around 100 00:05:25,839 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: the little you know, mall cop police station we've got 101 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,160 Speaker 2: here or whatever. Instead, he takes them off into the woods. 102 00:05:31,279 --> 00:05:34,200 Speaker 1: When they got there, he exposed himself fonald their breasts 103 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,680 Speaker 1: and forced them to perform oral sex on him. He 104 00:05:36,720 --> 00:05:39,440 Speaker 1: then blindfolded both women and forced them to lie down 105 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: in the backseat while he drove back to the Best 106 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:42,560 Speaker 1: Product store. 107 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 2: So there were some distinctive things that the perpetrator said 108 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 2: and did. Specifically, he would say things like, you know, 109 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,200 Speaker 2: I'm a contract killer for the CIA. I gain one 110 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 2: thousand dollars per hit. He had cigarettes, you know, was smoking. 111 00:05:54,680 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: He mentioned at one point how he does this to 112 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 2: women because he was molested by his grandfather when he 113 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:01,600 Speaker 2: was twelve. He said he was from Corpus Christi, Texas. 114 00:06:01,640 --> 00:06:03,640 Speaker 2: At one point he said he's from Columbus, Ohio. 115 00:06:03,800 --> 00:06:06,600 Speaker 1: He then fled with money from their purses, as well 116 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:09,680 Speaker 1: as a lighter and a pack of cigarettes. Now here's 117 00:06:09,720 --> 00:06:11,640 Speaker 1: the thing, Like these women reported this, this is all to 118 00:06:11,680 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: the police. And around the same time, a twenty eight 119 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 1: year old woman who were going to call SC totally 120 00:06:15,680 --> 00:06:18,040 Speaker 1: separates that reported that a man wearing sunglasses and armed 121 00:06:18,040 --> 00:06:22,000 Speaker 1: with a chrome handgun abducted her Samemo on August fifth. 122 00:06:22,240 --> 00:06:26,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, what happened is SC read the newspaper report of 123 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,280 Speaker 2: what happened to the twins. You know, once she read 124 00:06:28,279 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 2: the similarities, she decided she was going to come forward. 125 00:06:30,839 --> 00:06:33,040 Speaker 1: This woman said the attacker got into her car when 126 00:06:33,040 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: she came out of a store in a different shopping center. 127 00:06:35,240 --> 00:06:37,919 Speaker 1: This guy identified himself, according to her, as a security 128 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 1: guard and said his name was Roger. He ordered her 129 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 1: to drive behind a vacant building where he finled her 130 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:43,919 Speaker 1: breast and force her to perform oral sex. 131 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: So it was pretty clear to the police that the 132 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:49,799 Speaker 2: same guy was responsible for all three victims in both events. 133 00:06:50,200 --> 00:06:53,080 Speaker 1: Were rape kits done? Was there any testing done on 134 00:06:53,160 --> 00:06:56,600 Speaker 1: any of this type of you know, whether zerological or 135 00:06:56,720 --> 00:06:58,440 Speaker 1: other biological evidence? 136 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:02,359 Speaker 3: The BWNC a case, there was rape gets done on, 137 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:03,960 Speaker 3: We know that for sure. 138 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:07,200 Speaker 2: You know, they collected semen on the sweater of one 139 00:07:07,200 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: of the victims, and there were hairs that were collected, 140 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 2: you know. Unfortunately, this was an eighty eight you know, 141 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 2: before really DNA testing was known and widely used criminal investigations. 142 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 2: So the items in question that the perpetrator touched or 143 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: might have deposited biological material on were given back to 144 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 2: the victims by the police. So any chance for DNA 145 00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 2: testing was sort of ruined. 146 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:30,000 Speaker 1: Right, But no one even knew that until much later 147 00:07:30,040 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: when the Ohio Innos project kind of involved. But in 148 00:07:32,160 --> 00:07:34,840 Speaker 1: the immediate aftermath, there were these hairs that they would 149 00:07:34,880 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: eventually try to match with suspects by using hair microscopy, 150 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: which is a well known junk science. But they've actually 151 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,120 Speaker 1: got to find the suspects first, So They relied on 152 00:07:44,160 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: a composite sketch from the detailed descriptions that they had 153 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 1: received from all three victims, and the descriptions were consistent. 154 00:07:50,480 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they were very consistent all three victims. So 155 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:56,160 Speaker 2: he had his shirt unbuttoned and you could see this 156 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 2: big like rap medallion, very dark tan. 157 00:07:59,040 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 3: This was August. 158 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: Had acne along the jaw line, and he had very 159 00:08:03,720 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 2: specific color of hairs, brown with a reddish tint. And 160 00:08:06,720 --> 00:08:09,920 Speaker 2: they described him as tall and kind of a big guy, 161 00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:12,080 Speaker 2: and something like between one eighty and two fifty. I 162 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:14,600 Speaker 2: think there was a pretty broad range. The pant size 163 00:08:14,640 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 2: that they one of them provided was smaller would be 164 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:19,880 Speaker 2: a guy more like, you know, one hundred and eighty pounds, 165 00:08:19,880 --> 00:08:21,120 Speaker 2: two hundred pounds something like that. 166 00:08:21,280 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: So, Dean, did any of those very specific details match you. 167 00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,000 Speaker 3: No, they said the guy who attacked him had a 168 00:08:28,080 --> 00:08:31,520 Speaker 3: dark sun tan. I'm very irish. I burn and I 169 00:08:31,600 --> 00:08:34,480 Speaker 3: go back to white. You know. The person who attacked 170 00:08:34,559 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 3: him did not have a hairy chest because the medallion. 171 00:08:38,080 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 3: I got a bear suit on. I'm covered in hair. 172 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: The person who attacked him had severe acne scars on 173 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: both sides of his jawline. I did not have any 174 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,960 Speaker 3: of that stuff. The person who attacked him did not 175 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 3: have a cleft chin. I've got a cleft chin. I 176 00:08:53,800 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 3: started having gray hair on my temples in the tenth grade. 177 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,960 Speaker 1: Which is a feature that the victims would have mentioned 178 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: it been you. And also, I understand that you have 179 00:09:02,960 --> 00:09:04,239 Speaker 1: always hated cigarettes. 180 00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,080 Speaker 3: I absolutely hate cigarettes. My dad smoked most of my 181 00:09:07,160 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 3: life and I could I can't stand smell them. So 182 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 3: why am I even being looked at as a suspect? 183 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: And you had no idea that your moss Richard Wolf 184 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,120 Speaker 1: had it out for you. This bad I mean, on 185 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:21,840 Speaker 1: its face, the only thing about this crime that has 186 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:25,199 Speaker 1: any connection to you was the name Roger. Now, your 187 00:09:25,240 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 1: full name is Roger Dean Gillespie, but you've always gone 188 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: by Dean. But by the time you had been considered 189 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,000 Speaker 1: for this crime, a lot of time had passed by, 190 00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:36,680 Speaker 1: the case had gotten cold. So since it wasn't fresh 191 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: in the headlines, do we know what prompted him to 192 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:39,800 Speaker 1: try to bring you in. No. 193 00:09:39,960 --> 00:09:42,960 Speaker 3: He says that he's seen a newspaper article on a 194 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 3: bulletin board in the plant, and he went down and said, hey, 195 00:09:46,840 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 3: check this guy out. And the first time that he 196 00:09:49,640 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 3: went down there. He was seeing the detectives who were 197 00:09:52,960 --> 00:09:55,760 Speaker 3: in charge of that case when it very first started, 198 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 3: so they knew the case inside and out. They looked 199 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 3: at my DMV license and seeing that I didn't fit 200 00:10:02,559 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 3: the description at all. They knew the pants size, and 201 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,280 Speaker 3: when they looked at the hide and weight on me, 202 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 3: they knew I couldn't fit into pants, which I always 203 00:10:11,800 --> 00:10:14,080 Speaker 3: say one time in my life being fat was good 204 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 3: for me. 205 00:10:14,960 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: Well yeah, right, you would think. 206 00:10:17,800 --> 00:10:19,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, so you know, they've done a little right up 207 00:10:19,880 --> 00:10:22,440 Speaker 3: on it and disregarded me as a suspect, and that 208 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 3: was the end of it, you know with them. 209 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:27,559 Speaker 2: Yeah, so you know, Dean was eliminated as a suspect. 210 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,920 Speaker 2: Time went by. The detectives on the case who eliminated 211 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:32,640 Speaker 2: Dean retired and moved out of state. 212 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:36,079 Speaker 3: After they left. My boss his best friend who was 213 00:10:36,120 --> 00:10:39,520 Speaker 3: the chief of police. The chief's son was a detective. Now, 214 00:10:40,120 --> 00:10:43,600 Speaker 3: so my boss he went back with the same information 215 00:10:44,160 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 3: and said, check this guy out. I think that when 216 00:10:47,520 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 3: he was talking to this young new detective, with him 217 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 3: being a ex police officer and understand how the system worked, 218 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:57,680 Speaker 3: he was able to convince him that he was working 219 00:10:57,720 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: in the right track. And in the right guy. 220 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,080 Speaker 2: Detectives more twenty six years old, takes over the case 221 00:11:02,320 --> 00:11:05,400 Speaker 2: and the filed eliminating Dean disappears and we don't know 222 00:11:05,400 --> 00:11:07,199 Speaker 2: what happened to it. He just decides I'm going to 223 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,319 Speaker 2: go out and show the victims a photo spread with Dean. 224 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: And you know, you look at the photo spread, it's 225 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 2: clear that the other five came from the same source. 226 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:16,560 Speaker 2: Dean's was a glossy and the other ones were matts. 227 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: He's got a different color background. The victims to described 228 00:11:19,360 --> 00:11:22,240 Speaker 2: the perpetrators having a wide face, So the picture used 229 00:11:22,240 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 2: of Dean is like his face is taking up the 230 00:11:24,400 --> 00:11:26,440 Speaker 2: entire square, so it makes his head look really big 231 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,000 Speaker 2: and his face wide, whereas the other five are all 232 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:31,480 Speaker 2: like back more like torso shots. And so if you 233 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:33,920 Speaker 2: look at it, you go five of these are fillers, 234 00:11:34,040 --> 00:11:37,320 Speaker 2: which one doesn't fit clearly it's this one. 235 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: First off, I have no animosity toward the victims in 236 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:44,320 Speaker 3: this case because they were done wrong and they were 237 00:11:44,400 --> 00:11:47,600 Speaker 3: lied to, just like I was. And you got to remember, 238 00:11:47,640 --> 00:11:50,319 Speaker 3: this case is two and a half years old. 239 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:52,720 Speaker 2: And studies show that you know when it's a stranger rape, 240 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: your ability to identify accurately decreases steadily from the time 241 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:59,240 Speaker 2: it happens, and it's essentially down to chance by eleven months. 242 00:11:59,360 --> 00:12:01,560 Speaker 2: And so you're sticking a photo spread up in front 243 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:05,480 Speaker 2: of somebody two years after the fact with an extremely 244 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 2: suggestive lineup. That's a very dangerous situation. 245 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, they were revictimized, right, but now with 246 00:12:12,240 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: the victims identifying you, they had what they needed to 247 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 1: get an arrest warrant, even though, as we've already mentioned, 248 00:12:18,360 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: other than the name Roger, you and the assailant had 249 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: very little in common. It's why the initial lead detectives 250 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:26,559 Speaker 1: eliminated you as a suspect. And there's more that they 251 00:12:26,600 --> 00:12:31,080 Speaker 1: discovered that should have eliminated you again, but tunnel vision 252 00:12:31,120 --> 00:12:34,360 Speaker 1: and you know, perhaps maybe the detective Scott More, feeling 253 00:12:34,400 --> 00:12:37,559 Speaker 1: some kind of twisted obligation to his father's best friend, 254 00:12:37,760 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: may have been why they continued their pursuit of you. 255 00:12:41,120 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 3: Dean. 256 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:44,520 Speaker 1: I mean, when did you first find out that you 257 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,280 Speaker 1: were being targeted in this way? 258 00:12:46,480 --> 00:12:49,840 Speaker 3: I got a letter called a demand letter to come 259 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 3: into the police department, and because I'm a dumbass, I 260 00:12:54,760 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 3: went in and he questioned me about these incidents. Where 261 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,199 Speaker 3: were you at on this day, which was two years before. 262 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 3: Who knows where they were at two years ago, But 263 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:06,560 Speaker 3: because I didn't know, he felt like I wasn't answering 264 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: his questions. So weeks later is when they came to 265 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:12,840 Speaker 3: the house. They tore my house apart. You know, there's 266 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,360 Speaker 3: supposed to be a gun involved and everything else. I 267 00:13:15,360 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 3: didn't have guns. There was no clothing or anything that 268 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,720 Speaker 3: even came close to the type of attire this person 269 00:13:21,840 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 3: was wearing. 270 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 1: Okay, so that you're arrested and taking out in jail. 271 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:27,720 Speaker 3: We go through the arraiement and everything. They reduced the 272 00:13:27,800 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 3: bond down enough for me to get out, and I 273 00:13:31,000 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 3: am in a frantic mode to try to figure out 274 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,120 Speaker 3: where I was at during this time. And I was 275 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:40,520 Speaker 3: very lucky enough to have two friends who kept calendars 276 00:13:40,520 --> 00:13:44,160 Speaker 3: of events. You know, I was in Morehead, Kentucky on 277 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 3: one of the days of these crimes that took place 278 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:49,800 Speaker 3: with my friends. We were skinning and fishing and just 279 00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 3: having fun at the lake. And the other one we 280 00:13:53,200 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 3: were with some friends who had came in from college 281 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:56,880 Speaker 3: and we were out with them. 282 00:13:57,280 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: Unfortunately, alibi witnesses are often easily explained away by the prosecution. 283 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,720 Speaker 1: As people who are willing to lie for you, including 284 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:07,400 Speaker 1: about your ability to tan. They had photographic evidence of 285 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:09,360 Speaker 1: how it would have been impossible for you to tan, 286 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 1: but it had no effect, nor did pointing out all 287 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: the other discrepancies, amongst so many other tactics. During pre 288 00:14:15,480 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 1: Charlie defense tried to suppress the identifications for the same 289 00:14:18,600 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 1: reasons we had mentioned earlier, which is how outrageously suggested 290 00:14:22,880 --> 00:14:23,720 Speaker 1: the lineups were. 291 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:26,200 Speaker 2: It's harder to get these things suppressed even when they're suggestive. 292 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:26,920 Speaker 3: We see this a lot. 293 00:14:27,160 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 2: The current case law by the Supreme Court is completely 294 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:32,640 Speaker 2: out of date, doesn't reflect science, and that needs a 295 00:14:32,720 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 2: change eventually. But yeah, they allowed it in and they 296 00:14:35,120 --> 00:14:36,080 Speaker 2: allowed the identification. 297 00:14:36,480 --> 00:14:38,520 Speaker 1: So I want our audience to take notice here these 298 00:14:38,560 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: are the steps that our guests, usually incompetent attorneys, did 299 00:14:42,000 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 1: not take. That you might be telling yourself that you'd 300 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: make sure that you and your lawyer would take. But 301 00:14:49,720 --> 00:14:52,760 Speaker 1: it still made no difference to judge allowed in the IDs, 302 00:14:52,800 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 1: and the jury was not moved by the alby witnesses 303 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 1: nor any of the discrepancies between Dean and the assailant, 304 00:14:58,040 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: so he was found guilty. But the war sentencing a 305 00:15:01,240 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: defense investigator learned that hairs recovered from the victims that 306 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: were said to have been lost had not only not 307 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 1: been lost, but the crime lab had actually tested them 308 00:15:09,640 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: against Dean and excluded him. 309 00:15:12,320 --> 00:15:14,760 Speaker 2: They found some hairs that had been on the victim's 310 00:15:14,760 --> 00:15:17,280 Speaker 2: sweaters from the August twentieth event with the twins, and 311 00:15:17,440 --> 00:15:20,200 Speaker 2: they did not belong to Dean Glyspie, and so he 312 00:15:20,280 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 2: got a new trial where they could introduce that the 313 00:15:22,080 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: hairs found on the victims did not belong to Dean Gilyspian. 314 00:15:24,560 --> 00:15:24,680 Speaker 3: Right. 315 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: This seemed compelling at the time, but har microscopy is 316 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: shaky science. At best. You might be able to eliminate 317 00:15:30,520 --> 00:15:34,320 Speaker 1: someone from inclusion, but making a match with any degree 318 00:15:34,320 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 1: of certainty is total horseshit. It could be said that 319 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,360 Speaker 1: practitioners of this junk science might be willing to say anything, 320 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:43,000 Speaker 1: but this is the state's evidence, and given the opportunity, 321 00:15:43,040 --> 00:15:45,920 Speaker 1: they still didn't try to budge the evidence and fix 322 00:15:45,960 --> 00:15:49,760 Speaker 1: it on Dean. But the idea that he could simply 323 00:15:49,880 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: not have physically been the man they were describing should 324 00:15:53,240 --> 00:15:56,040 Speaker 1: have been enough on top of his alibi, for which 325 00:15:56,040 --> 00:15:59,640 Speaker 1: there were over twenty witnesses. So Dean what do you 326 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 1: remember about the second trial? 327 00:16:01,680 --> 00:16:05,800 Speaker 3: Things got weird because one of my friends is a 328 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:12,080 Speaker 3: pretty proficient smart ass, and when the prosecutor asked him, 329 00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 3: do you know Roger Gillespie, he said, I sure do, 330 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,400 Speaker 3: and he said he's in the courtroom and he said 331 00:16:19,440 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 3: he sure is, and he said, will you pointing him 332 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:24,600 Speaker 3: out to us, and he said, he's the guy in 333 00:16:24,680 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 3: the back sitting with the gray haired lady, which was 334 00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 3: my mom and dad. Because my name is Roger Dean 335 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:33,760 Speaker 3: Gillespie my whole entire life. The only name I've ever 336 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,160 Speaker 3: used is Dean Gillespie. My dad is Roger. All my friends, 337 00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 3: some of them didn't even know that my first name 338 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,280 Speaker 3: was Roger. So when he got off the stand, the 339 00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,040 Speaker 3: prosecutor went to a sidebar we had twenty two other 340 00:16:46,080 --> 00:16:49,560 Speaker 3: people to testify for me, and complained that all these 341 00:16:49,600 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 3: people grew up with me, they knew me my whole life, 342 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 3: and they were going to life for me, and they 343 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 3: cut all of the rest of the witnesses on my side. 344 00:16:57,800 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: Wow, that's is that legal? 345 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:01,480 Speaker 3: It worked? 346 00:17:01,480 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: Then there was more than just these witnesses that he 347 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,280 Speaker 1: had an extreme dislike for cigarettes. 348 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 2: They had pictures of him before all this happened inside 349 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: his truck on the dashboard. He had a thank you 350 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,800 Speaker 2: for not smoking plastic sticker, like a bumper sticker. He's 351 00:17:14,800 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 2: stuck on his dashboard and he's like the most irish, 352 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:19,880 Speaker 2: whitest guy ever. I mean, you know, you have these 353 00:17:19,880 --> 00:17:22,200 Speaker 2: pictures of him before all this happened, where he's out 354 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 2: at lakes with all his friends and they're in boats 355 00:17:24,280 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 2: and they're skiing, and then you know, they'd be in 356 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,480 Speaker 2: drinking beers that night and everybody's really tan, and he's 357 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 2: like beat red, even though he had sunscreen on and 358 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,400 Speaker 2: a T shirt, so he literally cannot tan. On top 359 00:17:34,440 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 2: of that, he's somebody. It's a family trait that had 360 00:17:36,920 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 2: been going gray since ninth grade. In high school. They 361 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,359 Speaker 2: called him the silver Fox, and the victims were very 362 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:44,879 Speaker 2: specific that it was brown with a reddish tent. He 363 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:46,920 Speaker 2: didn't have a reddish tent. And they were asked on 364 00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:48,399 Speaker 2: the stand did he have any gray, and they all 365 00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:48,880 Speaker 2: said no. 366 00:17:49,359 --> 00:17:54,160 Speaker 1: There was all this evidence, and sure enough it resonated 367 00:17:54,240 --> 00:17:55,000 Speaker 1: with the jury. 368 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,760 Speaker 3: I think it was two days they deliberated, and they 369 00:17:59,800 --> 00:18:03,400 Speaker 3: came out eight to four, eight for acquittal, four for conviction, 370 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,919 Speaker 3: and the judge told him to go to lunch and 371 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 3: come back and study on it some more. They came 372 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:13,520 Speaker 3: back out again at eight to four. 373 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: You know, it's actually kind of amazing that the jury 374 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,960 Speaker 2: was eight four for acquittal when you have three victims 375 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,639 Speaker 2: on the stand crying who were actually raped, and you 376 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:23,359 Speaker 2: have all that emotion and they're saying, I'm one hundred 377 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:25,880 Speaker 2: percent positive that's the guy. That guy's getting convicted, even 378 00:18:25,880 --> 00:18:28,439 Speaker 2: if there's all these things that don't match. So you 379 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 2: know the fact that they were eight to four to 380 00:18:29,800 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 2: acquit at the beginning, it shows you how bad the 381 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 2: case was against him. And then the judge gives them 382 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 2: what's called a dynamite charger, an Allen charge, and sends 383 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 2: him back. 384 00:18:38,000 --> 00:18:41,919 Speaker 3: And this is what happened after that. He said, I 385 00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 3: have a fishing trip. I don't want to be here. 386 00:18:45,840 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 3: If you don't reach a verdict, You're going to be 387 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 3: sequestered until you do, which means you are going to 388 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 3: leave here to a hotel, no contact, and we will 389 00:18:56,240 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 3: come back in until you reach a verdict. Forty forty 390 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 3: five minutes later, they just came back said all up, 391 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:21,480 Speaker 3: said Gilly, And like I say, I grew up in 392 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 3: just a great, beautiful world, and I go into a 393 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 3: close maximum security prison where seventy percent of these people 394 00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 3: are never getting out. Your life means nothing to them. 395 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 3: The violence is overwhelming. You know, I've been in bar 396 00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 3: fights or whatever as a kid, but I've never seen 397 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 3: anything like this. You know, when you're in prison and 398 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,960 Speaker 3: you get into a fight, you are fighting for your 399 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 3: life every time they want to test you. Soon as 400 00:19:52,320 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 3: you get in here, what are you gonna do? You know, 401 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 3: you're gonna be a punk and give your stuff every 402 00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:59,520 Speaker 3: commissary time, and everything you own is gonna be tooken 403 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,399 Speaker 3: by some where. You're going to fight. Luckily, you know, 404 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:04,639 Speaker 3: I was a big enough guy, and I was very 405 00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:07,520 Speaker 3: very well first in fighting, and that helped me a 406 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:09,719 Speaker 3: little bit. But still get your ass beat. You know. 407 00:20:09,800 --> 00:20:12,880 Speaker 3: I started reading a lot, and I started doing artwork 408 00:20:12,920 --> 00:20:15,679 Speaker 3: and listen to a lot of music and try to 409 00:20:15,720 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 3: stay out of the way the best I could. 410 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:20,119 Speaker 1: And somehow or other, you did, and you managed to 411 00:20:20,160 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 1: figure out how to not only survive, but to fight, 412 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 1: to continue to fight what was really not just an 413 00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:28,320 Speaker 1: uphill battle, but a virtually hopeless battle. I mean, you'd 414 00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:29,879 Speaker 1: seen the worst of what they could do to a 415 00:20:29,920 --> 00:20:36,040 Speaker 1: person and yet you managed to continue to advocate for yourself. 416 00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:39,439 Speaker 3: You know, my mom fought and fought and fought, and 417 00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:43,400 Speaker 3: she was not giving up on nothing. So I never 418 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 3: lost hope. I always knew that I was coming out 419 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,280 Speaker 3: there because I didn't do this. They would file a 420 00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:53,000 Speaker 3: brief file emotion and then you know, you wait and 421 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:55,800 Speaker 3: you get all excited about it, and then you get 422 00:20:55,800 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 3: denied and that crushes it. And you start talking to 423 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,680 Speaker 3: these lawyers and they start explaining to you, Oh, we're 424 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:02,959 Speaker 3: going to do this, and we're going to do this, 425 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:05,919 Speaker 3: so you get a little bit more hope, and it's like, well, 426 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 3: how long is that going to take? Well, you know 427 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 3: it's not gonna happen overnight, so you know, the years 428 00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:15,159 Speaker 3: just start clicking off while you're filing these motions and 429 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 3: they keep getting denied, to the point of I said, 430 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:21,040 Speaker 3: do not send me these motions no more. I don't 431 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:22,720 Speaker 3: want to read them. I don't want to see them 432 00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:25,440 Speaker 3: because I get too hyped up. I just want to 433 00:21:25,480 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 3: get my mind into a state where it's the same 434 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 3: every day and not keep doing this up and down thing. 435 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 3: I tried to clear my mind every day and then 436 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 3: start the next day to be as positive and as 437 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,000 Speaker 3: happy as I could be every day just to try 438 00:21:39,040 --> 00:21:39,960 Speaker 3: to keep my sanity. 439 00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:42,359 Speaker 1: I tell you, one of the sator people, I know 440 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,879 Speaker 1: maybe I'm missing something. But and then in two thousand 441 00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,399 Speaker 1: and three, you get a break when you'll highly missis 442 00:21:48,440 --> 00:21:49,800 Speaker 1: project began representing you. 443 00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:50,200 Speaker 3: Right. 444 00:21:50,280 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 2: So in November of two thousand and two, I got 445 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:55,240 Speaker 2: hired as a law professor teach criminal law at the 446 00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,399 Speaker 2: University of Cincinnati College of Law. But I wasn't going 447 00:21:57,440 --> 00:21:59,520 Speaker 2: to start un till the following year when classes start 448 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:02,520 Speaker 2: August of two thousand and three. And John Cranley was 449 00:22:02,560 --> 00:22:05,080 Speaker 2: a city councilman at that time in Cincinnati. He later 450 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 2: became the mayor, and he wanted to do something positive 451 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 2: with his law degree in addition to be a city 452 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:12,639 Speaker 2: council so he was trying to start an innocence project 453 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 2: at u SEE Law School. Couldn't get the dean to bite, 454 00:22:14,800 --> 00:22:17,600 Speaker 2: couldn't get any professors to bite. So I get hired, 455 00:22:17,640 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 2: and I have been a prosecutor by this point in time. 456 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 2: I was very bought into the idea that people are 457 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:23,920 Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted and we need to make some reforms in 458 00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 2: the system. So when he approaches me and says, I've 459 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 2: been trying to get this school to start one will 460 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:29,240 Speaker 2: you help run it with me? And I'm like, yeah, 461 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 2: let's do it. So we have our first fundraiser shortly 462 00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 2: after I was hired. It was November of two thousand 463 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,720 Speaker 2: and two, and there's some newspaper coverage of that fundraiser, 464 00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:43,120 Speaker 2: and in January, Wana Gillispie, Dean's mom, before I even 465 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:45,800 Speaker 2: had started at u See Law, before we'd officially launched 466 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,119 Speaker 2: the Innocence Project, she tracks me down, comes to my 467 00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 2: office with a big box of files and says, you 468 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: know you're going to take this case. It starts like 469 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 2: pitching it to me. My son's Ennison. He didn't do this, 470 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:58,359 Speaker 2: so it was literally the first one we were looking into. 471 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 2: Our first angle we started looking at the case in 472 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,159 Speaker 2: two thousand and three was to see if there was 473 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,320 Speaker 2: any DNA to test, and there were some hairs that 474 00:23:05,359 --> 00:23:08,359 Speaker 2: were collected off of the victim's sweaters, but it turns 475 00:23:08,400 --> 00:23:10,000 Speaker 2: out that most of them belonged to them. We did 476 00:23:10,000 --> 00:23:12,480 Speaker 2: do DNA testing on those, but they were irrelevant. They 477 00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:14,840 Speaker 2: didn't match Dean, they didn't match anybody. Most of them 478 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 2: were the victim's own hairs. There was no semen that 479 00:23:17,800 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 2: was actually preserved that we could test, even though there 480 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:22,840 Speaker 2: was some at the crime scene. We tried to see 481 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:25,360 Speaker 2: if there was anything. Again, our history tells us that 482 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,760 Speaker 2: they'll say things are destroyed, but when you really dig in, 483 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,120 Speaker 2: sometimes you'll find the semen even though they said they 484 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:32,479 Speaker 2: destroyed it. But in this case, it really was destroyed. 485 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:34,000 Speaker 2: There was nothing we could do other than the hairs, 486 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:35,399 Speaker 2: which turned out to be uneventful. 487 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 1: So now without the easier of the irrefutable smoking gun 488 00:23:39,280 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: evidence seminal DNA in a rape case, you had to 489 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 1: buckle in and prove it with a more full investigation. 490 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: And Dean's case, because it's just so monstrously egregious, there 491 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 1: was plenty of it, including a more likely suspect during 492 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: the initial investigation, which was a guy named Kevin Cobb. 493 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 2: So at some point after Dean was convicted, a phone 494 00:24:03,040 --> 00:24:06,040 Speaker 2: call had come in to I believe his attorney's office. 495 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:08,399 Speaker 2: Somebody had made an anonymous phone call saying the guy 496 00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:10,520 Speaker 2: who committed these crimes, his name is Kevin Cobb. It 497 00:24:10,600 --> 00:24:13,159 Speaker 2: was like a notation to that effect in the file. 498 00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 2: And this person wouldn't give their name. They said, you know, 499 00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,119 Speaker 2: I worked with him at Correctional Institute. But he's the 500 00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,199 Speaker 2: one who committed these crimes at Dean Gillispies And so 501 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: we start investigating Kevin Cobb. First thing we do is 502 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,160 Speaker 2: get his rap sheet. He has a history of pretending 503 00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,960 Speaker 2: to be a police officer, flashing a badge and committing crimes. 504 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: And you start looking into those cases. You know he's 505 00:24:32,960 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 2: arrested in this year of domestic violence. So we go 506 00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 2: pull that file and we can get the name of 507 00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:40,000 Speaker 2: the female victim. So we start going and talking to 508 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 2: some of these ex girlfriends and stuff, and what do 509 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: we find out. He would get drunk and tell people 510 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:47,639 Speaker 2: he's a contract killer for the CIA, gets a thousand 511 00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,120 Speaker 2: dollars per hit. He told one girlfriend I was molested 512 00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:53,879 Speaker 2: by my grandfather when I was twelve. He tells people 513 00:24:53,880 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: he's from Columbus, Ohio and Corpus Christi, Texas. In fact, 514 00:24:57,080 --> 00:24:59,120 Speaker 2: he had been stationed in the Marines at Corpus Christy 515 00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,200 Speaker 2: for a while. Exactly what the rapist said. We talked 516 00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,200 Speaker 2: to people who knew him back at the same time 517 00:25:04,359 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 2: of these crimes, to the point of going to his 518 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 2: high school, getting his senior yearbook, tracking down people that 519 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:12,399 Speaker 2: had lived in that town and knew him around the 520 00:25:12,400 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 2: same age. We found incidents of him wearing a medallion 521 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,879 Speaker 2: around the same year, flashing a badge, pretending to be 522 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:20,160 Speaker 2: a cop. We found incidents of him using the name 523 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:22,680 Speaker 2: of Roger. We heard the history of how he developed 524 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,760 Speaker 2: that fake name. There was a mentally challenged young man 525 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,840 Speaker 2: in their town named Roger who would walk around town 526 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 2: and Kevin Cobb would make fun of him, would imitate 527 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 2: him and say I'm Roger, you know, mimicking Roger's voice, 528 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:39,399 Speaker 2: And when he was acting crazy, he would take on 529 00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: this Roger persona. So we had incidents where he would 530 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:44,040 Speaker 2: commit crimes, flash of badge and use the name of Roger. 531 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 2: And then we get a picture of him from nineteen 532 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 2: eighty eight, and composite sketches are usually not very accurate, 533 00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 2: but it looks just like the composite sketch. We found 534 00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 2: out from the people who knew him that he got 535 00:25:54,920 --> 00:25:57,440 Speaker 2: very tan in the summer, he was a smoker. Everything 536 00:25:57,520 --> 00:25:59,760 Speaker 2: just matched up. It was uncanny. 537 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:05,439 Speaker 1: An Ohio Corrections Officer, Jesus Christ. I mean almost all 538 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,080 Speaker 1: of the villains in this story are part of the system. 539 00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,160 Speaker 1: And I say almost because not only did the initial 540 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: investigators Fritz and Bailey do the right thing. But now, 541 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 1: in the lead up to filing the two thousand and 542 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 1: seven post conviction filing, the former Ohio Attorney General Jim 543 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,160 Speaker 1: Pietrow actually joined Dean's legal team. 544 00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,239 Speaker 2: The main allegations were the Kevin Cobb, but also the 545 00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 2: fact that the original investigation had eliminated Dean. We were 546 00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 2: able to talk to Fritz and Bailey, who told us 547 00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,840 Speaker 2: all about the original investigation. They gave us affidavits that 548 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 2: they had created reports eliminating Dean as a suspect. They 549 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: talked about the pant size discrepancy, everything else, that those 550 00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:41,920 Speaker 2: had disappeared and the jury had never heard about them. 551 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,280 Speaker 2: So there were multiple claims that we filed in two 552 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 2: thousand and seven. 553 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,840 Speaker 1: So things now appear to be looking up. After all, 554 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,320 Speaker 1: you had the super compelling alternative suspect evidence about Kevin Cobb. 555 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,200 Speaker 1: In addition to Jim Petrow and your team, the original 556 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: detective Fritz and Bailey were on board and supporting the 557 00:26:57,680 --> 00:26:59,879 Speaker 1: Brady claim that all of their work from the initial 558 00:27:00,000 --> 00:27:03,399 Speaker 1: investigation had been disappeared or gone missing and therefore was 559 00:27:03,440 --> 00:27:06,080 Speaker 1: not shared with the defense. It seems like you finally 560 00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: really had momentum on your side. 561 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:10,399 Speaker 2: The judge that Dean had at that time who had 562 00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: taken over for the trial judge. His name was aj Wagner, 563 00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 2: and we could not have drawn a worse judge, extremely 564 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:19,720 Speaker 2: hostile to the idea that somebody could be wrongfully convicted 565 00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,760 Speaker 2: that eyewitnessed it can be wrong, extremely hostile to basically us. 566 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,720 Speaker 2: And we presented the evidence and he denied it outright 567 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 2: without a hearing, so we had to appeal. The appellate 568 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,200 Speaker 2: court denied us on the Brady claim, which is the 569 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,800 Speaker 2: missing file, but said that the judge should have had 570 00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,760 Speaker 2: a hearing on Kevin Cobb. So at that point the 571 00:27:39,800 --> 00:27:43,040 Speaker 2: case breaks in half. The Brady claim, since we lost 572 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 2: in the Court of Appeals, continues up the appellate chain 573 00:27:45,840 --> 00:27:48,200 Speaker 2: to the High Supreme Court, and the Kevin Cobb part 574 00:27:48,280 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 2: of it is sent back down the lower step to 575 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 2: the trial court for a hearing, which is like a trial. 576 00:27:53,280 --> 00:27:55,159 Speaker 1: And we'll catch up with the Brady portion of the 577 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:56,919 Speaker 1: case in a bit, but first you've got to go 578 00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: back to the trial court with the Kevin Cobb issue 579 00:27:59,240 --> 00:28:01,240 Speaker 1: in front of this super hostile judge. 580 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:04,280 Speaker 2: Again, just to show you what type of judge aj 581 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: Wagner was there was a whole other part of the 582 00:28:07,160 --> 00:28:11,120 Speaker 2: case where Dean on the August twentieth incident was actually 583 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 2: camping in Kentucky with friends, and when his investigator had 584 00:28:15,160 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 2: gone down to try to get the receipts to show 585 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:19,439 Speaker 2: he had been camping that weekend, they were missing. So 586 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:21,520 Speaker 2: of course they cross examined more on the stand during 587 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 2: the trial and he's like, no, I never went down there. 588 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,560 Speaker 2: I never took those receipts. When it became public we 589 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: were working on the case, a cop reached out to 590 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: us who said, I actually know that he did go 591 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: down there, because he admitted it to me, and we 592 00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: tried to get an affidavit from him, and the officer said, 593 00:28:34,680 --> 00:28:36,399 Speaker 2: I can't cross the blue line like that. I just 594 00:28:36,440 --> 00:28:38,040 Speaker 2: want you to know you're on the right track. And 595 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: at that point I started secretly recording this officer. So 596 00:28:42,080 --> 00:28:44,120 Speaker 2: when we go to file for Dean in two thousand 597 00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:47,280 Speaker 2: and seven, we attach Affi Davids saying what this guy 598 00:28:47,320 --> 00:28:49,479 Speaker 2: had said to us. They file a response and they 599 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 2: get this cop to say, I never said that they're lying, 600 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,240 Speaker 2: blah blah blah blah blah. On our reply brief. We 601 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,320 Speaker 2: go we got you on tape talking about it. So 602 00:28:56,680 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 2: AJ Wagner denies us on that claim. Again, we don't 603 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 2: have a hearing. And after it's over and the case 604 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 2: goes to a Court of Appeals, I get a call 605 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 2: saying AJ Wagner wants to have a status conference. I'm thinking, 606 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:09,360 Speaker 2: why does he want a status conference? The case is 607 00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 2: in the Court of Appeals. Now, this is like not 608 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 2: even his jurisdiction. So we get on this teleconference on 609 00:29:13,360 --> 00:29:15,800 Speaker 2: the phone. The Prosecutor's on the phone and Jim Petro's 610 00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,200 Speaker 2: on the phone, and AJ Wagner goes, oh, thanks everybody 611 00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 2: for coming together. Yeah, I just wanted to get the 612 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: parties together because Professor Godsee secretly recorded a police officer 613 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:27,840 Speaker 2: without his knowledge, which is a federal crime. And I'm 614 00:29:27,880 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 2: letting everybody know that I'm turning the evidence over to 615 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,520 Speaker 2: federal prosecutors. And then there was this like awkward pause, 616 00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: and Jim Petrow goes, Judge, it's not a federal crime 617 00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,160 Speaker 2: to secretly record a police officer. It's legal in Ohio. 618 00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,680 Speaker 2: And then Judge Wagner goes, Dan, this is the name 619 00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: of the prosecutor. 620 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 3: Is that your view? Yeah, Judge, I. 621 00:29:46,760 --> 00:29:51,600 Speaker 2: Don't think it's illegal, and AJ Wagner goes, well, I'll 622 00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 2: look into it a little bit, Mark, and it just 623 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:56,560 Speaker 2: hangs up the phone and I never hear anything about 624 00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,800 Speaker 2: it again. That shows you what kind of judges we 625 00:29:58,840 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 2: sometimes deal with. An Aja Wagner's about as bad as 626 00:30:00,920 --> 00:30:12,640 Speaker 2: a kids. 627 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,280 Speaker 1: So the Brady claim was still being litigated in the 628 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:21,400 Speaker 1: background as the Kevin Cobb issue was being sent back 629 00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 1: down to the trial court. And now AJ Wagner was 630 00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,440 Speaker 1: expected to be impartial when he was being forced by 631 00:30:27,440 --> 00:30:29,160 Speaker 1: the appellate court to hear all of the evidence that 632 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: you had compiled on Kevin Cobb, especially after he had 633 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:35,760 Speaker 1: embarrassed himself in front of his colleagues and the veteran 634 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,760 Speaker 1: prosecutors he had spoken to about indicting Mark. Right, and 635 00:30:39,960 --> 00:30:41,840 Speaker 1: this guy is your judge. 636 00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: So we had a hearing in front of AJ Wagner, 637 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 2: which is like a trial. That's what we call witnesses. 638 00:30:47,400 --> 00:30:49,880 Speaker 2: They come and testify about Kevin Cobb. You know, we 639 00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 2: call these ex girlfriends, these people that Kevin Cobb had 640 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:55,080 Speaker 2: committed crimes against, who talked about He used the name Roger. 641 00:30:55,200 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: He flashed a badge. You know, he was very tan. 642 00:30:58,280 --> 00:30:59,920 Speaker 2: He claimed to be a contract killer for the CEA, 643 00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 2: all those things I talked about that make an uncanny 644 00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,000 Speaker 2: match from Kevin Cobb to this crime, and then Judge 645 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:09,400 Speaker 2: Wagner summarily dismissed it. So we then appealed that back 646 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 2: up to the Court of Appeals. Meanwhile, the half that 647 00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,280 Speaker 2: we lost on the Brady claim and the appellate court, 648 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,160 Speaker 2: we appealed to the highest Supreme Court, where we lost. 649 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: At that point, since it was a constitutional claim Brady, 650 00:31:21,120 --> 00:31:23,440 Speaker 2: that gave us jurisdiction to take the case into what's 651 00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 2: called federal habeas, So we filed a federal habeas petition. 652 00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 1: So this Brady issue that the initial detectives Fritz and 653 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: Bailey had ruled Dean out as a suspect and the 654 00:31:32,480 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: file was hidden from the defense. They received a hearing 655 00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: at federal court on this issue in front of Judge 656 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,240 Speaker 1: Michael Murrs. Fritz and Bailey testified again about all the 657 00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:44,240 Speaker 1: physical discrepancies that they had written a report about, the hair, 658 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 1: the skin, the cleft chin, the pants couldn't have fit, 659 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 1: so you must have quit. In addition, they were suspicious 660 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,560 Speaker 1: of Wolfe's tip, calling it quote unquote particularly unreliable because 661 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 1: the composite sketch had been posted at the GM plant 662 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: since shortly after the assaults, but Wolfe only went to 663 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 1: the police after a nasty fight resulting in Dean being fired. 664 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: So they wrote this report about Dean not being a 665 00:32:07,120 --> 00:32:09,960 Speaker 1: viable suspect and it was never seen by the defense, 666 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: along with the campground receipts that the chief's son, Scott Moore, 667 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: never turned over either. And the decision came down on 668 00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:19,479 Speaker 1: December sixteenth, twenty eleven. 669 00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:21,400 Speaker 2: You know, in this day and age, when they issued 670 00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 2: a decision, they email it. An email had come from 671 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 2: the federal court, and I see that we won the case. 672 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 2: He threw out Dean's conviction based on the Brady claim. 673 00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 2: So I immediately drive up to Dayton, which is only 674 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 2: about forty five minutes from Cincinnati. I don't tell anybody, 675 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:38,240 Speaker 2: and I knock on the door of Dean's mom and dad, 676 00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,760 Speaker 2: Wan and Roger Gillispie for twenty years. 677 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 3: Well we won Dean's case. What judge murs throughout the. 678 00:32:45,240 --> 00:33:05,440 Speaker 4: Counts kidd me, oh my god, come. 679 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:06,200 Speaker 3: In here to have a seat. 680 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: This is the sound, the heart wrenching sound of a 681 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,400 Speaker 1: mother's grief. But it all means that her boy was 682 00:33:17,480 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: finally coming home after so many years lost. And it 683 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:23,120 Speaker 1: took about a week for you to get out. You 684 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: were released on bond with an ankle monitor, just in 685 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: time for the holidays. 686 00:33:27,400 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 3: A US Marshall came and got me. It was December 687 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,240 Speaker 3: twenty second, so everyone was basically shut down and closing 688 00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:39,440 Speaker 3: up for the holidays. So she picks me up and 689 00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:42,320 Speaker 3: I'm like, where's everybody at what's going on? She goes 690 00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:44,480 Speaker 3: right down the road. So we drive down the road 691 00:33:44,560 --> 00:33:47,440 Speaker 3: to a bowling alley right around the corner from the prison. 692 00:33:47,480 --> 00:33:50,120 Speaker 3: You could actually see the place from the wreckyard on 693 00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,040 Speaker 3: the back side of the prison when you're walking the track. 694 00:33:53,800 --> 00:33:57,280 Speaker 3: And I go into this bowling alley. All my family's there, 695 00:33:57,440 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 3: all my friends, the media was everywhere. One of them 696 00:34:01,000 --> 00:34:03,640 Speaker 3: asked me, how does it feel to be free? And 697 00:34:03,720 --> 00:34:07,640 Speaker 3: I'm like, I'm looking around the room and I knew 698 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,600 Speaker 3: all these people that were bowling because they were guards 699 00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:14,719 Speaker 3: from the prison. It was Garden League bowling night from 700 00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:18,600 Speaker 3: the prison. And it's like, oh my god, man, am 701 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:20,359 Speaker 3: I free? Or am I a purgatory? 702 00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: It was very much of legal purgatory, because yeah, you 703 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,880 Speaker 1: were released, but you were wearing an ankle monitor and 704 00:34:26,920 --> 00:34:30,640 Speaker 1: the case had not been officially dismissed. Meanwhile, the other issue, 705 00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,960 Speaker 1: the alternative suspect Kevin Cobb, that was still being litigated. 706 00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:37,000 Speaker 1: Now last we checked, AJ Wagner had just denied you 707 00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:39,520 Speaker 1: on that issue, and your team appealed to the decision. 708 00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 2: Four months later, in April of twenty twelve, we went 709 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:45,160 Speaker 2: in the Court of Appeals on Kevin Cobb. So he's 710 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 2: like double released. He's the only exonery I know of 711 00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 2: in the country that was exonerated twice on two totally 712 00:34:51,160 --> 00:34:53,160 Speaker 2: independent grounds, Like if you take away the Brady, he 713 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 2: still would have been exonerated on Kevin Cobb. If you 714 00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:57,320 Speaker 2: take away Kevin Cobby, he still would have been exonerated 715 00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,360 Speaker 2: on Brady. And they're totally independent of one another. So 716 00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: he was like double exoneration. 717 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 1: So the state would have to fight this on two 718 00:35:04,719 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: fronts in order to get you back in and considering 719 00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:09,440 Speaker 1: the evidence in this, a normal person would just let 720 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:11,600 Speaker 1: this go right, So you guys filed to have the 721 00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,720 Speaker 1: charges dismissed and that was dragged out until twenty fifteen 722 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:18,760 Speaker 1: when Montgomery Court of Common Please Judge Stephen Dankoff granted 723 00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:21,920 Speaker 1: the motion to dismiss the indictment. The state appealed it 724 00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:24,680 Speaker 1: dragged it out for another two years. Of July twenty six, 725 00:35:24,719 --> 00:35:29,480 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen, so almost six years later, the decision was 726 00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,320 Speaker 1: finally upheld and the case was dismissed. 727 00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,480 Speaker 3: That was the federal side, the Brady violation, that was 728 00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 3: in the federal court, and that's what got dismissed there, 729 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 3: And then we had alternate suspect in the state court. 730 00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 3: I didn't get officially all the way done until December 731 00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:51,560 Speaker 3: ninth of twenty twenty one. 732 00:35:52,080 --> 00:35:55,560 Speaker 1: Ten years. I mean not only your time, but their time, 733 00:35:56,040 --> 00:36:00,359 Speaker 1: which actually belongs to the taxpayers and the public. I mean, 734 00:36:00,480 --> 00:36:03,919 Speaker 1: considering all the shit that we all now know about 735 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:08,799 Speaker 1: this case, like why continue this charade? 736 00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,239 Speaker 3: And you gotta look at the money. You gotta look 737 00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:12,960 Speaker 3: at the money that was wasted. It was just, you know, 738 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,319 Speaker 3: waste it on frivolous nothing. Just like what are you doing? Right? 739 00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:20,279 Speaker 1: And think of all the better things they could have 740 00:36:20,280 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: been doing with their time and our money. You know, 741 00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,440 Speaker 1: I can't imagine that a single one of their constituents 742 00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:30,000 Speaker 1: wants this done in their name. This was the alternative 743 00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,600 Speaker 1: suspect part of the case. We're not positive that Kevin 744 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,600 Speaker 1: Cobb was the assailant, but the evidence certainly pointed in 745 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:40,360 Speaker 1: his direction. And in continuing to try to maintain Dean's conviction, 746 00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: they just doubled down on letting whoever the actual assailant was, 747 00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:46,640 Speaker 1: go free and stay free. Another thing that I can 748 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:50,400 Speaker 1: bet that all of their constituents would be firmly opposed to. 749 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:54,840 Speaker 1: But now you've finally been fully exonerated, and there's a 750 00:36:54,920 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: bittersweetness to this part of the story. You pursued Miami 751 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: Township Police Department as well as the tech to Scott 752 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:01,880 Speaker 1: more Civilly Right. 753 00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:06,480 Speaker 3: For the civil suit. In November of twenty two, we 754 00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,000 Speaker 3: started a week of preparation for the federal civil suit. 755 00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 3: We went through a two week trial. The PTSD was 756 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,880 Speaker 3: off the charts for me. It was just unbelievable to 757 00:37:17,920 --> 00:37:20,279 Speaker 3: sit through all that. But we get through it and 758 00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 3: the judge sent them back to deliberate, and they deliberated 759 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:28,520 Speaker 3: about three hours. They asked one question and that was 760 00:37:28,840 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 3: do legal fees come out of damages? And then we knew, like, 761 00:37:34,120 --> 00:37:36,319 Speaker 3: oh shit, they're on the right track. They went to 762 00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,440 Speaker 3: lunch and then came back set us in the court 763 00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:44,120 Speaker 3: and then they got to the money amount of damages 764 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,920 Speaker 3: and it was a shot around the world at forty 765 00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,400 Speaker 3: five million dollars. 766 00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:53,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, obviously no amount of money would ever 767 00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 1: give you that time back. But you know it is 768 00:37:55,560 --> 00:37:58,720 Speaker 1: the largest verdict in Ohio state history. Correct. 769 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, I wouldn't do it again for a hundred million dollars. 770 00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,560 Speaker 3: You couldn't say in nineteen ninety one, We're gonna send 771 00:38:04,600 --> 00:38:07,200 Speaker 3: you to prison for twenty years for one hundred million dollars. 772 00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 3: I wouldn't do it. First. You got to survive the 773 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 3: twenty years. You know, there is no way in the 774 00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:15,440 Speaker 3: world any money, you know, send me back to twenty 775 00:38:15,480 --> 00:38:18,359 Speaker 3: five years old. Do that. You know, keep your money 776 00:38:18,400 --> 00:38:20,839 Speaker 3: and put me back in that era. But you know 777 00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,839 Speaker 3: that you can't get it back. And that was one 778 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:25,799 Speaker 3: of my things with the PTSD in the court was 779 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,279 Speaker 3: when they talked about the amount of time and they 780 00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:33,160 Speaker 3: would always say, you can never get that back. And 781 00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 3: while I'm sitting there, it is just like smacking me 782 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 3: in the face, like my God, it's gone and it 783 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:42,799 Speaker 3: isn't coming back. This here is not going to make 784 00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:44,880 Speaker 3: that come back. I mean, I've got a lot of 785 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,279 Speaker 3: things I want to do. Got car building on my mind. 786 00:38:47,320 --> 00:38:49,920 Speaker 3: I'm doing one now, Just things like that. I'm setting 787 00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,520 Speaker 3: up a trust for my great niece who's seven, you know, 788 00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,240 Speaker 3: to hopefully, you know, make this money grow into something 789 00:38:56,280 --> 00:39:00,799 Speaker 3: that would be a legacy. But definitely going to be 790 00:39:00,840 --> 00:39:02,560 Speaker 3: supporting our Ohio project. 791 00:39:02,800 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 1: I'd like to encourage our audience to support the Ohio 792 00:39:05,280 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 1: Innocence Project. We're gonna have LinkedIn the bio because without them, 793 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:12,200 Speaker 1: Dean would not be out here with us along with 794 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:13,440 Speaker 1: so many others. 795 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,120 Speaker 3: Yeah, I I was the first case the Ohio Instance 796 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:21,480 Speaker 3: Project took the fourteenth person we got out. Artist is 797 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 3: our twenty year anniversary. We've got thirty nine people out. 798 00:39:24,560 --> 00:39:29,200 Speaker 1: Well, Mark, you, Jennifer, the whole crew. You're all doing 799 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,560 Speaker 1: phenomenal work. And here's to the next thirty nine. And 800 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,759 Speaker 1: now we go to the closing of our show. So 801 00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:42,080 Speaker 1: of course this is called closing arguments. I love this 802 00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:45,160 Speaker 1: segment and I love it because it's a part where 803 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,160 Speaker 1: I get to, first of all, thank you two for 804 00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:51,799 Speaker 1: being here and sharing this incredible, incredible story with me 805 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:54,920 Speaker 1: and our amazing audience. And so how this works is 806 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:56,759 Speaker 1: I'm gonna turn my microphone off, kick back in my 807 00:39:56,840 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: chair with my headphones on, close my eyes, and just 808 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: listen to any closing thoughts that you guys want to share. Mark, 809 00:40:03,760 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: why don't you start and Dean, you take us off 810 00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: into the sunset. 811 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:12,719 Speaker 2: A grave injustice occurred against Dean. Grave injustices and unfairness 812 00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,040 Speaker 2: occurred to people all the time. And you can say, well, 813 00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,640 Speaker 2: you know, how can we take this and how can 814 00:40:19,680 --> 00:40:23,000 Speaker 2: he get complete vindication? And you can dream of the 815 00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,520 Speaker 2: steps that you would go through to win your case, 816 00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 2: to get free to then you know, win some huge 817 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,200 Speaker 2: settlement right in the face of the cop who did 818 00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:34,160 Speaker 2: this to you. That's like the movie Shawshank Redemption, where 819 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,000 Speaker 2: he gets his revenge and everything turns out the way 820 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,279 Speaker 2: it should. In real life, that doesn't happen. It never 821 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:44,080 Speaker 2: happens the way it should. But in Dean's case it did. 822 00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,479 Speaker 2: And you know, we sat in prison and talked about 823 00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:48,280 Speaker 2: his wrongful conviction all the way back in two thousand 824 00:40:48,280 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 2: and three and two thousand and four, and it looked 825 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:52,680 Speaker 2: like such a long shot to get this overturned, and 826 00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,920 Speaker 2: everything that should have happened to vindicate him just happened 827 00:40:55,960 --> 00:40:59,520 Speaker 2: like a Hollywood story. And I'm so happy for him. 828 00:40:59,520 --> 00:40:59,920 Speaker 3: I wish this. 829 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,080 Speaker 2: I wish other people who've had these wrawful convictions happened 830 00:41:03,120 --> 00:41:05,600 Speaker 2: to them could have the Hollywood story play out the 831 00:41:05,600 --> 00:41:06,120 Speaker 2: way it has. 832 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,240 Speaker 3: People always ask what is the fix? What is the fix? 833 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,560 Speaker 3: I don't know that there's a fix. I feel like 834 00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:19,120 Speaker 3: we need term limits on prosecutors. We need to figure 835 00:41:19,160 --> 00:41:22,520 Speaker 3: out this system where the judge is put in place, 836 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,040 Speaker 3: like the federal system, because when you have a judge 837 00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,400 Speaker 3: who's going to be on your television saying I'm going 838 00:41:28,480 --> 00:41:31,600 Speaker 3: to be tough on crime, he's already formulated an opinion, 839 00:41:32,160 --> 00:41:36,160 Speaker 3: so he's biased to start with. I think that's a 840 00:41:36,280 --> 00:41:40,440 Speaker 3: start in this. But we got other issues with this problem, 841 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,440 Speaker 3: and that is the folks who are in states that 842 00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 3: don't get compensated. They also don't get credit for Social Security, 843 00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:51,800 Speaker 3: and that is a huge issue for folks who are 844 00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:53,400 Speaker 3: going to have to work the rest of their life. 845 00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,279 Speaker 3: We need to try to figure out a fix for that. 846 00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,400 Speaker 3: I know that's a huge undertaking and complicated thing, but 847 00:41:59,600 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 3: we got to have compensation across America. Until then, we 848 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,279 Speaker 3: need to fix the social security so so folks can 849 00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 3: not have to work their whole life because they spent 850 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,359 Speaker 3: time in prison. And didn't pay in. And thank God 851 00:42:11,400 --> 00:42:14,280 Speaker 3: for the Innocence Project, thank God for Barry and Peter, 852 00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,400 Speaker 3: you know, the projects all across America. And you know, 853 00:42:17,520 --> 00:42:20,520 Speaker 3: I can't never say enough about Mark Gazzi who saved 854 00:42:20,520 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 3: my life, and the kids who work at our program 855 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,759 Speaker 3: with the University of Cincinnati Law School. Just you know, 856 00:42:26,160 --> 00:42:30,239 Speaker 3: support these organizations because this is still going on. This 857 00:42:30,320 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 3: is still happening. The man just got out of Arizona 858 00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 3: with fifty three years in so this can't keep going. 859 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:46,160 Speaker 3: It can't keep happening. We've got to fix this problem. 860 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,319 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Rafel Conviction. I'd like to 861 00:42:49,360 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis, 862 00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:56,320 Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production 863 00:42:56,440 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. 864 00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,400 Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, 865 00:43:03,680 --> 00:43:07,359 Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and on Twitter at 866 00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On 867 00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: all three platforms. You can also follow me on both 868 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:17,920 Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason Flam. Wrongful Conviction is 869 00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,640 Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good. Podcasts and association with 870 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,160 Speaker 1: signal Company Number one