1 00:00:00,560 --> 00:00:04,400 Speaker 1: Hello, dear listener. It's Maria noo Josa. Today I'm going 2 00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:07,520 Speaker 1: to share with you an interview that Julio Ricardo Varela 3 00:00:07,720 --> 00:00:11,160 Speaker 1: and I recently did. The other podcast that I co host. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:13,840 Speaker 1: It's called In the Thick. If you don't subscribe to 5 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:17,320 Speaker 1: In the Thick, definitely do it right now. Anyway, we 6 00:00:17,360 --> 00:00:21,079 Speaker 1: sat down with Daniella Pierre Bravo. She's a reporter for 7 00:00:21,239 --> 00:00:25,799 Speaker 1: MSNBC's Morning Joe, and she also recently published a book. 8 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: It's titled The Other How to Own Your Power at 9 00:00:29,320 --> 00:00:32,920 Speaker 1: work as a Woman of Color. We talked about overcoming 10 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: imposter syndrome and biases within our own communities. We also 11 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,239 Speaker 1: talked about the inequalities and the systemic issues that a 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: lot of Latinas, Afro Latinas and Black women face in 13 00:00:46,000 --> 00:00:49,360 Speaker 1: the workplace. It was a really interesting conversation. I hope 14 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:52,800 Speaker 1: you enjoy it. Here it is our conversation with Daniela 15 00:00:52,880 --> 00:00:53,560 Speaker 1: Pierre Bravo. 16 00:00:54,320 --> 00:00:59,080 Speaker 2: For many black and brown women, it's people constantly questioning 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:04,039 Speaker 2: their worthiness and constantly questioning their seat at the table. 18 00:01:07,040 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: And PRX. It's In the Thick, a podcast about politics, 19 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: race and culture. I'm Maria Josa and I'm Hulacavarella. And 20 00:01:15,319 --> 00:01:18,199 Speaker 1: today a special guest based out of New York City 21 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,319 Speaker 1: is Daniella Pierre Bravo. She's a reporter for MSNBC's Morning Joe, 22 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:25,400 Speaker 1: you know that little show. An author of a new book. 23 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: It's called The Other How to Own your Power at 24 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:32,720 Speaker 1: work as a Woman of Color, Ala Daniela, Welcome to 25 00:01:32,800 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 1: the Thick. 26 00:01:33,600 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 3: Hey, guys, thank. 27 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:35,560 Speaker 2: You so much for having me. 28 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,880 Speaker 1: We're so happy to have you. And I'm actually recording 29 00:01:38,880 --> 00:01:40,959 Speaker 1: in the studio, so it's going to be nice and 30 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,560 Speaker 1: quiet on my end. I don't know about everybody else. 31 00:01:43,400 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 4: But I might have leaf blowers. 32 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 1: It's you know, who knows it is the season. So, Daniela, 33 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:52,240 Speaker 1: in your book you talk about you get really personal 34 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 1: because you want to really kind of label this otherness 35 00:01:58,240 --> 00:02:01,000 Speaker 1: that a lot of us feel when we're at work, 36 00:02:01,040 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: when we're trying to build our careers. I mean, this 37 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: is kind of like my whole life being the first 38 00:02:05,000 --> 00:02:08,280 Speaker 1: one right in all of my newsrooms. You write in 39 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: your book about imposter syndrome, about systemic oppression bias, and 40 00:02:13,320 --> 00:02:15,280 Speaker 1: we're going to get into all of that. But there's 41 00:02:15,280 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 1: something that we do here on our show, which we love, 42 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: which is we ask journalists how they're doing, like what's 43 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:27,400 Speaker 1: their emotional state of being? So now that your book 44 00:02:27,440 --> 00:02:31,280 Speaker 1: is out in the world, you know, what's your temperature check? 45 00:02:31,320 --> 00:02:32,640 Speaker 1: How are you feeling well? 46 00:02:32,639 --> 00:02:36,000 Speaker 2: Thank you for asking that. I don't really think about 47 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 2: it too much. And I think it's because I've had 48 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 2: a lot of practice being a DOCKER recipient. There's been 49 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,680 Speaker 2: a lot of high and lows that are kind of constant. 50 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: You know, working in news, it's hard not to take 51 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,600 Speaker 2: some of the stuff personal, just because being an immigrant 52 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:56,360 Speaker 2: and being a DOCKER recipient is so political and interwine 53 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,880 Speaker 2: with the news cycle in itself by the very nature 54 00:02:58,919 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 2: of it. And you know, I think I have to 55 00:03:03,160 --> 00:03:05,399 Speaker 2: take a temperature check, or try to take a temperature 56 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,680 Speaker 2: check each and every day because I'm trying something different, 57 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 2: which is not living in that survival mode. And I 58 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,359 Speaker 2: have a whole chapter about it and how it relates 59 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 2: to mental health in the book because even from when 60 00:03:20,520 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 2: I started my career, DACA has been in the news 61 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: and it's very much a part of who I am. 62 00:03:27,200 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 2: But you guys know this every you know, every year, 63 00:03:30,680 --> 00:03:34,920 Speaker 2: every other year in this last decade, it makes the 64 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:37,720 Speaker 2: news in some way, shape or form, there's an attack 65 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 2: on the program, the program's rescinded, there's a lawsuit, and 66 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:49,920 Speaker 2: somehow my community has to pretend that everything's okay. I 67 00:03:50,040 --> 00:03:51,880 Speaker 2: like to call it, and my therapist likes to call 68 00:03:51,920 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 2: it healthy compartmentalizing. 69 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: Oh there you go, healthy compartmentalization. 70 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:58,440 Speaker 4: Oh I haven't heard that one. 71 00:03:58,480 --> 00:03:59,160 Speaker 1: I'll take that. 72 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,640 Speaker 2: I just learned that. Yeah, I mean, it doesn't make 73 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:04,520 Speaker 2: it any easier, but you just kind of have to 74 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,320 Speaker 2: try to go on and just remind yourself to not 75 00:04:09,440 --> 00:04:12,680 Speaker 2: buy into that survival mode and just take care of 76 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,040 Speaker 2: yourself each and every day. Easier so than done. 77 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:17,880 Speaker 1: But by saying it, Danielle, you are letting other people 78 00:04:17,920 --> 00:04:22,279 Speaker 1: because you're right, yeah, just this whole DOCA roller coaster 79 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: is over the top, ridiculous, too much, and people oftentimes 80 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:29,880 Speaker 1: forget the deep emotional impact that it has on, as 81 00:04:29,920 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: you say, your community. So we really want to thank 82 00:04:31,800 --> 00:04:34,159 Speaker 1: you for bringing that up and thank you for giving 83 00:04:34,240 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: us the term of healthy compartmentalization. 84 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,840 Speaker 4: Okay, that's it now, I know what to call it, 85 00:04:40,400 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 4: because it feels like that's been my life sometimes. But 86 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:49,240 Speaker 4: in your book, Daniella, you write about insert dramatic music, 87 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,160 Speaker 4: but it's something that Marie and I. 88 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:55,040 Speaker 1: Have talked about for years. 89 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:58,760 Speaker 4: Dunt dunta imposter syndrome, right, or that feeling that you 90 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:03,400 Speaker 4: only achieve succes because of luck as opposed to merit. 91 00:05:03,720 --> 00:05:08,040 Speaker 4: It's a sentiment that disproportionately affects black and brown communities, 92 00:05:08,200 --> 00:05:12,320 Speaker 4: and in your case, you said it was exacerbated by 93 00:05:12,360 --> 00:05:16,000 Speaker 4: being undocumented. But you also say this experience helped you 94 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 4: get to where you are. And I'm going to share 95 00:05:18,880 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 4: a quote from your book before I asked the question, 96 00:05:21,240 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 4: and you write, I found power in knowing that it 97 00:05:24,880 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 4: was up to me and only me, to go for 98 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:32,160 Speaker 4: what I wanted and that it could possibly, maybe somehow 99 00:05:32,200 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 4: work out, even when it felt like I was way 100 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 4: out of my league. That quote is a gut punch 101 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:44,040 Speaker 4: to me. So thank you for writing that and sharing that. 102 00:05:45,320 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 4: Being a reporter at MSNBC, in full disclosure, you have 103 00:05:48,880 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 4: an MSNBC contributor as one co host and an MSNBC 104 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 4: opinion columnist as another, so we are part of the 105 00:05:56,440 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 4: fam in the same we're kind of family, So get 106 00:05:58,680 --> 00:05:59,240 Speaker 4: that out of the way. 107 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:01,360 Speaker 1: You also have written two books. 108 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 4: You are now in a different position than you were 109 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,400 Speaker 4: when you first started out, So do you still feel 110 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:10,400 Speaker 4: like the other in your workplace. 111 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 2: You know, I hate the word the other, and I 112 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:17,040 Speaker 2: actually do. Yeah. I actually went back and forth on 113 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 2: whether or not I wanted to keep it as my title, 114 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:23,920 Speaker 2: but I decided to keep it because I knew it 115 00:06:24,040 --> 00:06:28,920 Speaker 2: was important to pinpoint the origins of that otherness so 116 00:06:28,960 --> 00:06:32,200 Speaker 2: that we could question it and then challenge it. I 117 00:06:32,279 --> 00:06:35,480 Speaker 2: think the way that I like to describe my otherness 118 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: now is a more empowered, evolved version than what I felt, 119 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:43,719 Speaker 2: you know, at the beginning of the workplace and even 120 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:47,479 Speaker 2: before then, when I was actually in the shadows. And 121 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: I think by the very nature of just having to 122 00:06:49,960 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 2: really be introspective about my journey and question the origins 123 00:06:54,480 --> 00:06:59,799 Speaker 2: of it and question the feeling of unworthiness right because 124 00:06:59,880 --> 00:07:02,360 Speaker 2: I didn't do it just for myself. I did it 125 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,719 Speaker 2: for this community of people who are going to be 126 00:07:05,760 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 2: reading the book and hopefully see themselves through it, so 127 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 2: that we can together question that sense of unworthiness and 128 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,600 Speaker 2: that sense of otherness, and that idea that our differences 129 00:07:17,640 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 2: are our liabilities. And Madia, you know this when you 130 00:07:21,400 --> 00:07:25,440 Speaker 2: are one of the first and only like that sense 131 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,200 Speaker 2: of saving yourself has to come through yourself, like you 132 00:07:30,400 --> 00:07:33,640 Speaker 2: have to be able to look this quote unquote imposter 133 00:07:33,720 --> 00:07:36,480 Speaker 2: syndrome in the eye and do it anyways. And I 134 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:41,120 Speaker 2: was thankful enough to have Rachika Tulshin contribute to this book, 135 00:07:41,160 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 2: who she's an incredible inclusion and diversity expert, and she 136 00:07:45,520 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 2: wrote that really powerful piece in Harvard Business about how 137 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:53,200 Speaker 2: we shouldn't tell women that they have the imposter syndrome 138 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 2: because imposter syndrome for white women and this so called 139 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 2: imposter syndrome for women of color two very different things. 140 00:08:01,640 --> 00:08:06,120 Speaker 2: And when that was first researched by psychologists in the 141 00:08:06,200 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 2: nineteen seventies, I believe it only really measured the lived 142 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,160 Speaker 2: experiences of white women. And so I really challenge that 143 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 2: idea of imposter syndrome when I talk to women of color, 144 00:08:17,760 --> 00:08:25,520 Speaker 2: because there are very systemic and bias and cultural parts 145 00:08:25,640 --> 00:08:28,640 Speaker 2: of how we're treated on an everyday basis and in 146 00:08:28,680 --> 00:08:32,960 Speaker 2: the workplace where we may feel like impostors. Right, But 147 00:08:33,080 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 2: the reality of it is that for many black and 148 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,880 Speaker 2: brown women, it's more than that. It's people constantly questioning 149 00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:44,560 Speaker 2: their worthiness and constantly questioning their seat at the table. 150 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:49,600 Speaker 2: So that word hits differently for our community, and I 151 00:08:49,600 --> 00:08:51,360 Speaker 2: think That's why I spoke about it in the way 152 00:08:51,360 --> 00:08:53,480 Speaker 2: that I did in the book was because I really 153 00:08:53,520 --> 00:08:57,559 Speaker 2: wanted to open this dialogue from somebody from our community 154 00:08:57,600 --> 00:08:58,439 Speaker 2: for our community. 155 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: No, I mean, I love as you know, this is 156 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:02,599 Speaker 1: something that I've been writing about, and I think the 157 00:09:02,640 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 1: whole conversation about, well, how we want to define it, 158 00:09:06,320 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 1: how we want to discuss it, how we decide to 159 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 1: combat the imposter syndrome. Which, by the way, I don't 160 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: think I told you this story, Daniella, but I might 161 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:18,199 Speaker 1: as well my favorite because I ask all powerful women 162 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:20,800 Speaker 1: to tell me what happens when they hear the little 163 00:09:20,880 --> 00:09:24,080 Speaker 1: voice in their head that's like, you can't do this. 164 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: Who do you think you are, Lorca, because you think 165 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 1: you can be in this space. And the person who 166 00:09:30,800 --> 00:09:34,560 Speaker 1: gave me the best advice was Rita Moreno, who said 167 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,600 Speaker 1: she labels the little voice that gets into her brain. 168 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 1: She has a name for her, and then she punishes 169 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 1: the little voice and sends her up to her room 170 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:48,920 Speaker 1: and locks the door, so that the little voice is like, no, 171 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: it is that's castillata. You cannot come out and take 172 00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:54,960 Speaker 1: over my brain, which I think is it's a way 173 00:09:55,000 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: in which we are always trying to take up space 174 00:09:57,640 --> 00:10:01,200 Speaker 1: and understand our role in the space. You also in 175 00:10:01,280 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 1: your book talk about the grateful mindset. The grateful mindset 176 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:09,199 Speaker 1: is actually something that I've learned a lot more by 177 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 1: being a professor and having students who are in class 178 00:10:15,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: and their first gen and they're feeling a lot of stress. 179 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,040 Speaker 1: I mean, they're really dealing with some intense mental health 180 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:27,360 Speaker 1: challenges and the parents are like, no, bittle they are 181 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:29,480 Speaker 1: or you know, it could be so much worse and 182 00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,640 Speaker 1: you should be so grateful. Tress is something that you 183 00:10:33,679 --> 00:10:37,959 Speaker 1: write about, and I understand this, right, I understand it 184 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:42,439 Speaker 1: writ large, but you actually want to talk about this 185 00:10:42,559 --> 00:10:46,560 Speaker 1: grateful mindset as a concept that can actually bring us 186 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:50,080 Speaker 1: some harm. So talk a little bit about like when 187 00:10:50,120 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: you became aware of like esk, I'm tired of Like no, yes, 188 00:10:56,960 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 1: When did you realize like this is not like something 189 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,680 Speaker 1: that's going to help me process what I'm going through? 190 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:05,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, just first off saying that the feeling of 191 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 2: being grateful, I think in general, is a beautiful quality 192 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 2: that is passed on by generations in our immigrant culture. 193 00:11:12,800 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 2: I think for me, when it started to turn sour 194 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:21,920 Speaker 2: is when I realized that I was overcompensating and doing 195 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 2: things because I felt like there was a gatekeeper to 196 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,400 Speaker 2: my success. And I think that's what being overly grateful does. 197 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 2: It limits you and what you feel you can earn, 198 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 2: as if if you stop being grateful, that sense of 199 00:11:39,320 --> 00:11:43,280 Speaker 2: success or that sense of open doors will somehow disappear. 200 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,400 Speaker 2: It's like we're so tethered to that sense of that 201 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,280 Speaker 2: path being dictated by somebody else that if we stop 202 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:53,880 Speaker 2: being grateful or asking for more, we're going to be 203 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,160 Speaker 2: punished in some way or we're going to get fired 204 00:11:56,200 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 2: if we ask for more. 205 00:11:57,679 --> 00:11:57,959 Speaker 4: Right. 206 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: And there's also deep Catholic guilt that runs through him. 207 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:05,400 Speaker 2: Oh my god, don't get me started. Yeah, totally still 208 00:12:05,440 --> 00:12:06,040 Speaker 2: dealing with it. 209 00:12:06,080 --> 00:12:08,040 Speaker 1: And I'm no longer practicing Catholic. 210 00:12:08,200 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 4: I'm it's fifty three years old, you know. 211 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think that one part of it, obviously 212 00:12:13,960 --> 00:12:16,840 Speaker 2: is exemplified in my career, right, how much money I 213 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,560 Speaker 2: ask for? When do I say no to things? 214 00:12:19,720 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 4: Right? 215 00:12:19,920 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: Because if I say no, will I look ungrateful? And 216 00:12:23,040 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 2: the other part, I think kind of filters out of 217 00:12:26,280 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 2: this kind of career bubble, which is the inability to 218 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: really vocalize our needs sometimes. Yeah, and you know, I 219 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:37,040 Speaker 2: do a lot of other things outside of MORIEO. I 220 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 2: write books, I do speaking events, and sometimes I feel 221 00:12:40,640 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 2: like people and this is not just my experience, but 222 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 2: it's also the experience of other women of color that 223 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:49,360 Speaker 2: I've also identified in the book, where they'll do things 224 00:12:49,360 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 2: for free and they they don't know when to, you know, 225 00:12:53,480 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: put a price to their value or their energy. And 226 00:12:57,080 --> 00:13:01,520 Speaker 2: it's not the same for white men or even white women, right, 227 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:06,200 Speaker 2: and so again it's that blockage of constantly feeling like, 228 00:13:06,320 --> 00:13:14,320 Speaker 2: oh no, right. And so it's something that even today 229 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm working at and it's one of 230 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: the things that I really want to impart with young people. 231 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,280 Speaker 2: And it's a whole reason why I wrote this mental 232 00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,760 Speaker 2: health chapter, because I think it really goes hand in 233 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 2: hand because for a long time, that sense of not 234 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 2: wanting to ask for more and being covered in that 235 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 2: gratefulness also had to do with the shame of not 236 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 2: being fully understood and not giving myself the room to 237 00:13:40,720 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 2: fully show up as I was, and I hid behind 238 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:46,120 Speaker 2: that gratefulness for a long time. 239 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 4: I was going to say, part of what you're bringing 240 00:13:49,640 --> 00:13:55,679 Speaker 4: up is super intentional, right, that we don't question, you know, Madia, 241 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 4: the way you brought it up, you know, the Catholic guilt, 242 00:13:58,520 --> 00:14:02,199 Speaker 4: the cultural foundation that leads to this type of thinking 243 00:14:02,240 --> 00:14:06,280 Speaker 4: that has never been truly challenged, right in a way 244 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:11,520 Speaker 4: that I've seen in the past. Right, So, how do 245 00:14:11,600 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 4: you begin to break that in these communities? Because you 246 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:17,880 Speaker 4: know my experience growing up in Puerto Rico, it's like 247 00:14:17,960 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 4: I didn't want to always do things. I just wanted 248 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:24,680 Speaker 4: to be me. But that was seen as like you're deficient, 249 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:28,920 Speaker 4: You're caring too much about yourself, you're too selfish, right, 250 00:14:29,000 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 4: And then it kind of comes back and it's like 251 00:14:31,840 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 4: those type of qualities where you talk about self care 252 00:14:35,720 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 4: aren't valued in our community. So how do you start 253 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 4: pushing that? How do you start challenging that besides your book, 254 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:44,720 Speaker 4: and I'm talking about specifically the communities that you grew 255 00:14:44,800 --> 00:14:48,320 Speaker 4: up in, you know, being formally undocumented, how do you push. 256 00:14:48,120 --> 00:14:48,560 Speaker 1: Through all that? 257 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I self care was something that was definitely not taught. 258 00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 2: I mean I had parents who worked two in three jobs, 259 00:14:55,680 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 2: and I saw my mom work her third shift with 260 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 2: this flaring artthritis and she would still like wait tables 261 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 2: and here I am on my cushy cubicle job. Like, 262 00:15:05,040 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 2: who am I to complain about anything? I really started 263 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 2: to think about this and question this and change during 264 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 2: the pandemic, and I wrote this article for Cosmo about 265 00:15:15,480 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 2: how I had been constantly using my productivity as a 266 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:23,400 Speaker 2: way to find my own value and that my worth 267 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 2: was predicated on my productivity because that's how I saw, 268 00:15:26,960 --> 00:15:28,800 Speaker 2: you know, was a way of success in my family. 269 00:15:29,520 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 2: And I think for me as a doctor recipient, anytime 270 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 2: that we feel like we want to ask for more, 271 00:15:37,440 --> 00:15:39,480 Speaker 2: we feel like we don't want to talk about our 272 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 2: stories and show how worthy we are than we're ungrateful. 273 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:47,640 Speaker 2: And I think I had stopped writing stories. This is 274 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:50,920 Speaker 2: how I've broken the cycle for myself. I have stopped 275 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 2: writing stories of how deserving I am because I work 276 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,000 Speaker 2: in media and I have a great job. Because it 277 00:15:59,080 --> 00:16:01,520 Speaker 2: wasn't until I I really wrote this book where I 278 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:05,160 Speaker 2: realized I was doubling down on this model minority sort 279 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: of concept and that for many different ways it was 280 00:16:09,440 --> 00:16:12,640 Speaker 2: hurting not just me and my sense of worth, but 281 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:17,160 Speaker 2: it was tainting my whole community in an unrealistic way. 282 00:16:18,240 --> 00:16:21,760 Speaker 2: And that for me is a way to kind of 283 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 2: peel back the layers of saying with something like DACA. 284 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 2: While I'm incredibly grateful the opportunities that it's given me, 285 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,920 Speaker 2: right ten years later, there's still a looming anxiety and 286 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 2: uncertainty over my head. And in order for us to 287 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:43,120 Speaker 2: change the dialogue, we have to change the narrative of 288 00:16:43,160 --> 00:16:46,840 Speaker 2: our lived experiences. So I think I've done my own 289 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 2: kind of personal statement by writing my experience in a 290 00:16:52,720 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 2: different way. 291 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: So it's interesting, nan Yeta, because and that's why you know, 292 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,760 Speaker 1: reading your book hit hard. I'm going to be straight 293 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,880 Speaker 1: up honest, because I always am all the time. I mean, 294 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:19,199 Speaker 1: I still feel even though I've achieved right all this 295 00:17:19,480 --> 00:17:22,719 Speaker 1: like dreamy success, right, I still feel like I have 296 00:17:22,760 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: to say yes almost all the time. And it's my kids, actually, 297 00:17:27,840 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 1: my adult kids were like, uh, you need to say 298 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: no more often, and I'm just like, yeah, but this 299 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: is historic, but this is important. And I think you're right. 300 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 1: I think we do determine so much of our worth, 301 00:17:39,800 --> 00:17:43,679 Speaker 1: especially as immigrants, by the work that we do. So 302 00:17:44,200 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: as you know, there's a whole conversation about rest, right 303 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:49,680 Speaker 1: and giving into the rest. I have a very high 304 00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:52,439 Speaker 1: powered friend who's like, I'm going to take a nap 305 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:56,719 Speaker 1: because I'm just going to give in to needing to 306 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: stop and slow down. I love the fact that. I mean, 307 00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,119 Speaker 1: what I love about your generation, Danielle, is that you 308 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: actually are coming up with terms. You are coming up 309 00:18:04,560 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: with ways to structurally respond. When you're talking about this 310 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:13,320 Speaker 1: with young people, like are they just like, oh my god, 311 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,639 Speaker 1: she's giving us the key to the Holy Grail? Like 312 00:18:16,720 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: we understand, right, Like we're going to have to work hard, 313 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,919 Speaker 1: but also pat ourselves on the back a little bit, 314 00:18:22,040 --> 00:18:25,480 Speaker 1: take a rest. Yeah, understand that. Yes, gratitude is essential, 315 00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 1: but there's another thing, right that's going on. So yeah, 316 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:30,680 Speaker 1: what's the response been. 317 00:18:31,000 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: I think gen Z is a lot smarter than our generations. 318 00:18:35,040 --> 00:18:39,160 Speaker 2: And I think that it's partly big influences because they 319 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:42,119 Speaker 2: have women like you, Maria to look up to, who 320 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: have done their own thing and have built incredible influence 321 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,959 Speaker 2: by leaning into our community and doing the things. Because 322 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,800 Speaker 2: one looks at you, Maria, you know, and you know 323 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 2: how invigorated you are by doing the things that feel 324 00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 2: authentic and true to you. And I think that is 325 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 2: very exemplatory to this new generation that's coming up. It's 326 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,320 Speaker 2: by no coincidence that we have things like the quiet quitting, 327 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 2: the Great resignation. Now, McKinsey came out with the study 328 00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 2: that I did reporting on, which is the great breakup. Right, So, 329 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,200 Speaker 2: now that these women are leaving their companies by drones, 330 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 2: primarily women of color, they're not leaving the workplace altogether, 331 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,520 Speaker 2: but they're breaking up with the companies that no longer 332 00:19:25,640 --> 00:19:28,800 Speaker 2: give them the value back where they feel like they're 333 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:33,040 Speaker 2: putting so much in and they're walking away from that 334 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 2: glass ceiling and feeling empowered that they're going to get 335 00:19:37,240 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 2: around it by going to other companies. And I think 336 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,639 Speaker 2: there has been a turn with my generation, but even 337 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 2: more so with gen Z where they are hardworking. This 338 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:50,320 Speaker 2: is not the same conversation for women and men entering 339 00:19:50,359 --> 00:19:52,800 Speaker 2: the first and second year, right, like you should not 340 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: take naps and you should put your head down and 341 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:57,480 Speaker 2: do the work for the first year or two right 342 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,040 Speaker 2: until you grow that value. I think a lot of 343 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:04,240 Speaker 2: them are better at discerning as we move up the 344 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,679 Speaker 2: ladder and we see the inequalities that happen, right that 345 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,639 Speaker 2: men are being paid more, you know, we're being passed 346 00:20:10,720 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: up by those promotions, Like there is less of a 347 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:19,560 Speaker 2: threshold of patience towards it because they've seen the injustices 348 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 2: of their avuelas and their grandmas and the aunts and 349 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 2: the moms about that injustice. They know that they have 350 00:20:26,280 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: more to offer, right, Like this generation coming up Gen 351 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:34,440 Speaker 2: Z is the most diverse generation ever, So they can 352 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 2: see that trend and they see where we're going, and 353 00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: I think they've got it a little bit more figured 354 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 2: out than our generations have. But they have great examples. 355 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,200 Speaker 2: They're coming into the workplace with that message of self 356 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 2: care and that girl boss hustle culture is just not 357 00:20:49,480 --> 00:20:52,439 Speaker 2: in vogue anymore, and that it depletes you from doing 358 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,439 Speaker 2: the things that are actually going to give you energy 359 00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:59,680 Speaker 2: to change the workplace in a way where you leave 360 00:20:59,680 --> 00:21:02,720 Speaker 2: done gabed and you're not like beat down because you've 361 00:21:02,720 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 2: given all your energy away. 362 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 4: Wow, there's some truth there. I like to think a 363 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 4: little bit of the parents played a role. 364 00:21:08,920 --> 00:21:09,320 Speaker 1: That's just me. 365 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 4: That's just me being selfish, you know, with two gen 366 00:21:11,400 --> 00:21:12,280 Speaker 4: Z kids. 367 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,919 Speaker 2: But absolutely yeah. I mean it's having those examples that 368 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 2: have come before them. And again it's much as the 369 00:21:19,119 --> 00:21:21,719 Speaker 2: injustices that I think that they've seen that they're not 370 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 2: going to have patients for, but also the examples of 371 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:28,199 Speaker 2: success of what could be and feeling that sense of 372 00:21:28,240 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 2: like I deserve this right. I am the first person 373 00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 2: of my family to do this. I am confident and 374 00:21:33,640 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 2: I don't lack a confidence problem. But I lack the 375 00:21:36,600 --> 00:21:39,439 Speaker 2: opportunity of equal ground in this space that I'm in. 376 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:40,600 Speaker 2: I'm going to find it elsewhere. 377 00:21:41,240 --> 00:21:46,000 Speaker 4: Ye all right, Well, you did mention the systemic inequities 378 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 4: that contribute to feelings of otherness for many black and 379 00:21:50,119 --> 00:21:53,480 Speaker 4: brown women. And just to reiterate and get into more 380 00:21:53,480 --> 00:21:56,480 Speaker 4: detail of what you raised previously, the fact that Latina's 381 00:21:56,480 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 4: with an associate degree or higher earn on average, one 382 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:04,840 Speaker 4: third of what non Latino white men with similar degrees 383 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:08,160 Speaker 4: earned one third, right, Yeah, And the fact that Latino 384 00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 4: women earn fifty seven cents for every dollar a non 385 00:22:12,680 --> 00:22:16,920 Speaker 4: Latino white man earns. So that is facts, that is real. 386 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 4: That is what people are fighting against. So our producer, 387 00:22:21,640 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 4: also named Daniela Daniela djo Garson spoke to s Mitra Kalita, 388 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:28,879 Speaker 4: who's been on the show with us in the past, 389 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:32,159 Speaker 4: and Mitra is the co founder of URL Media and 390 00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:36,640 Speaker 4: publisher of Epicenter NYC, about how our communities can work 391 00:22:36,880 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 4: against these systems of inequity. 392 00:22:39,119 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 1: So let's take a listen. 393 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:44,440 Speaker 3: One, everyone else is trying to figure it out to right. 394 00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:50,000 Speaker 3: And two, there's so much of the way people of 395 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,919 Speaker 3: color are set up at work that is in the 396 00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 3: singular ascent, meaning the promotion, the salary, increase, your next 397 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 3: race is your more resources, more empire, building, more people 398 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 3: on your team, and we always want more and more 399 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,399 Speaker 3: and more. Corporate America is set up in a really 400 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 3: singular manner. And every time I'm in a community gathering 401 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:18,359 Speaker 3: like that I'm describing, I'm always struck by how many 402 00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 3: of us actually ascended together and how critical that support 403 00:23:25,600 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 3: of my fellow insecure people of color has been. 404 00:23:32,280 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 2: In order for us to get to the next level. 405 00:23:34,960 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 4: Wow, you know, Metre always drops incredible knowledge. But Daniella, 406 00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:44,119 Speaker 4: you actually created an organization called accessol which helps early 407 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 4: to middle career women gain access to the next step 408 00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,159 Speaker 4: in their career through mentorship, exclusive content, and community. So 409 00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,359 Speaker 4: tell us more about ACCESSO. What are some examples of 410 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 4: how your organization is breaking down barriers for those who 411 00:23:57,520 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 4: come after you, like the passing of the baton. 412 00:24:00,240 --> 00:24:02,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, so this is a community that I had created 413 00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:05,680 Speaker 2: during the pandemic, and it's called access so because it's 414 00:24:06,200 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 2: giving access to not only just community and mentorship, but 415 00:24:10,400 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 2: a dialogue, which I think is something that a lot 416 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 2: of the women that I spoke to for this book 417 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 2: and I kind of didn't have at the beginning of 418 00:24:18,680 --> 00:24:21,880 Speaker 2: the workplace, which is, how do we talk about these 419 00:24:21,880 --> 00:24:28,640 Speaker 2: incredibly important topics of salary, of dealing with microaggressions, of 420 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 2: figuring out how to deal with conscious and unconscious bias, 421 00:24:33,080 --> 00:24:36,920 Speaker 2: and a safe space where there are women that are 422 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: going through the exact same thing, and how can we 423 00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,200 Speaker 2: discuss that so that we can not only just get 424 00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:47,880 Speaker 2: mentorship from somebody above us, but that lateral mentorship as well. 425 00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:51,600 Speaker 2: So I've created these sessions that happen year round where 426 00:24:52,040 --> 00:24:55,800 Speaker 2: I bring together groups of six to seven women for 427 00:24:55,960 --> 00:24:58,880 Speaker 2: the duration of about three months, and we meet bi 428 00:24:58,960 --> 00:25:02,679 Speaker 2: monthly and guided by a mentor, whether it's myself or 429 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 2: somebody else that's high up in their organizations, that leads 430 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,520 Speaker 2: these not just conversations and dialogues, but we have the 431 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:14,720 Speaker 2: kind of role plays and we talk about the things 432 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,159 Speaker 2: that you really can't talk about with your coworkers, but 433 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 2: with a community that really understands these plights and these 434 00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:25,440 Speaker 2: acute ways in which women of color are slighted at work, 435 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:29,159 Speaker 2: and I think that what we've learned through this community 436 00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: is that more than anything, it's that feeling of not 437 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 2: being alone in that that can be really empowering to 438 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:42,120 Speaker 2: push back in real time. And I think sometimes we 439 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 2: just need to feel like we're not alone. Aside from 440 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:46,399 Speaker 2: having a script and how to deal with it right 441 00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 2: because we go through that, like how to deal with 442 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 2: microaggressions in the moment, how to compose an email to 443 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:52,560 Speaker 2: somebody that we want to reach out to we have 444 00:25:52,640 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 2: no connection with, right when we go through those really 445 00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 2: practical things. But aside from that is really understanding that 446 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:01,440 Speaker 2: you're not alone in these moments can feel really lonely 447 00:26:01,520 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 2: as women of color, so that you can become empowered 448 00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:08,280 Speaker 2: to actually use all of this content that we're learning 449 00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 2: in real time. 450 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: It's interesting because you know, obviously I'm of a different 451 00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: generation and there were not a lot of women. I mean, 452 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: there were no Lettinas in the media right on a 453 00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 1: national scale. But my mentor, Sandy Ratley, who was a 454 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,520 Speaker 1: black woman older than me, did give me the way 455 00:26:25,600 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: to kind of understand my process. But it was not 456 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:32,280 Speaker 1: a group. It was like one person. And I think 457 00:26:32,280 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 1: what you're pointing to Daniela. You know, again putting this 458 00:26:35,760 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: into larger context, right, the rise of labor movements, the 459 00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:43,840 Speaker 1: rise of unionization, the rise of the great resignation, as 460 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,520 Speaker 1: it were. I just am thinking about how you put 461 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:52,280 Speaker 1: together that with something that is a culture that is 462 00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: much more centered on well being and inclusivity. And I 463 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: think about how you handle this because you work in 464 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:02,600 Speaker 1: an incredibly competitive place. I mean MSNBC like any other 465 00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,400 Speaker 1: cable network. You know, it's high intensity, it's it's deeply competitive. 466 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:11,480 Speaker 1: It is you know, oftentimes looking over your shoulder, not 467 00:27:11,640 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 1: knowing when your company's going to be bought. How do 468 00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:15,720 Speaker 1: you do that? I mean, I love the fact that 469 00:27:15,760 --> 00:27:18,240 Speaker 1: you really are attempting to create this culture that is 470 00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: centered on well being and a sense of well being, 471 00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: but at the same time taking up space, yeah, demanding more, 472 00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:29,919 Speaker 1: you know, wanting to be more inclusive, which means that 473 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:33,320 Speaker 1: we're going to be pushing buttons all the time. So 474 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,719 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about those contradictions and how you 475 00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:37,080 Speaker 1: make it through well. 476 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:39,800 Speaker 2: First of all, I think it's important to know the 477 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:45,560 Speaker 2: power of sometimes causing dissonance, which is counterintuitive and uncomfortable, 478 00:27:46,160 --> 00:27:48,320 Speaker 2: because anytime you're going to have an idea different than 479 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 2: anybody else, or you stop being the person that you know, 480 00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:55,359 Speaker 2: puts her head down and says yes to everything, in 481 00:27:55,400 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 2: volunteers for everything, you're going to cause dissonance. So that's 482 00:27:58,480 --> 00:27:59,880 Speaker 2: one of the things that I've really had to lean 483 00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,360 Speaker 2: in to an understand. I will say, I'm fortunate enough 484 00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:06,200 Speaker 2: that I have had a role model like Mika Brazenski 485 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,040 Speaker 2: who has modeled this and of which I have created 486 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: and helped develop a platform that has this exact message 487 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 2: at know your value, right, So taking care of yourself, 488 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:21,600 Speaker 2: knowing your value and growing it in a way that 489 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:24,719 Speaker 2: understands when your stock is up, but also when your 490 00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,639 Speaker 2: stock is down, and you know, I think there's a 491 00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 2: lot of things at play here. It's not as easy 492 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 2: as that. I mean, she is somebody who has had 493 00:28:32,080 --> 00:28:34,360 Speaker 2: advocated for me in rooms that I have not had 494 00:28:34,440 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: access to at the beginning of my career, and that 495 00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:40,600 Speaker 2: certainly helped me ascend faster than that maybe it would 496 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:42,400 Speaker 2: have if I was on my own. And I think 497 00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:46,080 Speaker 2: that's a message to how leaders and people who don't 498 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 2: just want to be mentors but actually want to be 499 00:28:47,840 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 2: sponsors in young women's lives should do it. I also 500 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:54,719 Speaker 2: think that, to be completely honest with you, I've been 501 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: at this organization for ten years. I've seen the change 502 00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:03,800 Speaker 2: of leadership many times over, and I've seen the nuances 503 00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:11,160 Speaker 2: on how to navigate politics and structures of a corporate 504 00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:15,200 Speaker 2: company like the one I work at, and I've learned 505 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:19,040 Speaker 2: to kind of figure out what the rules are and 506 00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,520 Speaker 2: know where I could work around them. That's the truth 507 00:29:22,600 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 2: of it. And I think that anybody who works in 508 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 2: corporate America where they've been in this place where things 509 00:29:27,360 --> 00:29:31,320 Speaker 2: are changing right towards our benefit. It might have not 510 00:29:31,520 --> 00:29:34,160 Speaker 2: always been easy, but I think I have stuck with 511 00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:38,440 Speaker 2: it enough where I've gotten smart on what the rules 512 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,640 Speaker 2: of the game are right for somewhere like corporate America, 513 00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,480 Speaker 2: like the place I work at, but understanding the real 514 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,920 Speaker 2: shifts that are happening, and being there while those things 515 00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 2: are happening, and raising my hand and showing why I'm 516 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 2: of value in this point of time. 517 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 4: Listen, before we go, we're going to move on to 518 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:10,560 Speaker 4: our final segment, which we call laos the last one 519 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 4: before you go, Last call, whatever. 520 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 3: You know. 521 00:30:17,880 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: To say, the last one before you go, The last call, 522 00:30:20,080 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: Last call? 523 00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,640 Speaker 2: Do you know Londa. 524 00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,440 Speaker 1: And Chile. So tell us what is something that brings 525 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: you joy, something that makes you feel inspired, something you 526 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:34,760 Speaker 1: do that makes you feel inspired. 527 00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,480 Speaker 2: It's funny that you asked that, because I've only really 528 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,760 Speaker 2: as of late, really lean into that. I think for 529 00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: a long time, I was just kind of like, my 530 00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:46,320 Speaker 2: work is my my joy, and my work is is 531 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,200 Speaker 2: where I find, you know, ease and pleasure. But like 532 00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:51,080 Speaker 2: the reality of it is that we have to kind 533 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,280 Speaker 2: of find other ways to do that. I've found joy 534 00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:58,320 Speaker 2: in like little places like my dog Benji. Benji is 535 00:30:58,360 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: my little rescue Morky. 536 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry his name's Benji. Oh, I love it. 537 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:04,520 Speaker 2: I will say that I can't take credit for his 538 00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 2: name because he came named he's a rescue and he 539 00:31:07,840 --> 00:31:11,520 Speaker 2: looks exactly like Benji the dog from the movie And. 540 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:13,320 Speaker 4: Okay, you just bringing me back to like when I 541 00:31:13,400 --> 00:31:16,600 Speaker 4: was ten in the seventies and I love that movie. 542 00:31:16,920 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 2: I'll have to share a picture of him. He's so cute. Yeah, 543 00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:22,400 Speaker 2: please do, yes, I will. And moving my body. I 544 00:31:22,480 --> 00:31:25,720 Speaker 2: know that sounds silly, but like tennis, like nowadays, I 545 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 2: can tell when my spirits are down, like if I 546 00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,240 Speaker 2: haven't had a walk that day or anything, like that 547 00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 2: walking to get coffee. I don't care what they say 548 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 2: about the five dollars lattes. It's part of my mental 549 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,320 Speaker 2: health bucket. Like, that's what I do. I do my 550 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 2: walks every day with Benji. I go get my cappuccino 551 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:45,560 Speaker 2: in Brooklyn, And you know, it's just the little things. 552 00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:48,800 Speaker 1: It is the little things. In many ways, it is 553 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,360 Speaker 1: the little things. Hey, Benji, one day you're going to 554 00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: have to meet Benito and we're going to go out 555 00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: for a doggy playdate. 556 00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: Oh I love that. We have to get that. 557 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:58,400 Speaker 4: Benji, meet Benito, Benito meet Benji. 558 00:31:58,680 --> 00:31:59,000 Speaker 2: Yes. 559 00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:03,320 Speaker 1: Daniel Lapi, Bravo reporter at MSNBC, author of the Other 560 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: How to Own Your Power at work as a Woman 561 00:32:05,840 --> 00:32:08,480 Speaker 1: of Color, Thank you so much for joining Juu and 562 00:32:08,560 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: me and this really wonderful conversation. We're so happy we 563 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: finally were able to get you on and thank you 564 00:32:13,160 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 1: for all you do in the world. 565 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 2: Daniella, thank you, this was so fun. Thank you so much. Guys. 566 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: I'm Mariano Hosa and I'm Julio. Dear listener, remember to 567 00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: go to Apple Podcasts to rate and review us. Also, 568 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,040 Speaker 1: remember you can listen to in the Thic on all 569 00:32:28,280 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 1: major podcast platforms. Check us out on the web at 570 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 1: Inthethik dot org, follow us on Twitter and on Instagram 571 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,400 Speaker 1: at in the Thick Show, Like us on Faye book, 572 00:32:37,560 --> 00:32:40,920 Speaker 1: and tell your friends and family to listen. This episode 573 00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: was produced by our New York Women's foundation Ignite fellow 574 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,360 Speaker 1: Daniela Hey, you got so great job. Daniela in the 575 00:32:47,440 --> 00:32:50,480 Speaker 1: Thik is also produced by Nor Sadi and Harshanahta, with 576 00:32:50,560 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 1: editorial support from Fernanda Santos. Our audio engineering team is 577 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: Definitely Lebou, Julia Carusso, Gabriel Abyez and JJ Grubin are. 578 00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:01,040 Speaker 1: Marketing manager is res Luna. Thanks to Rattle bett Is 579 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: for recording me. The music you heard is courtesy of 580 00:33:03,320 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: nothing I have kept NCZK Records. We'll see you on 581 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:10,040 Speaker 1: our next episode. Dear listener, remember not yes, take up 582 00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:14,400 Speaker 1: some space and uh yeah, stay positive. We'd love that. 583 00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,280 Speaker 2: See you later, yeah, and stay grateful peace. 584 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,040 Speaker 3: The opinions expressed by the guests and contributors in this 585 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 3: podcast are their own and do not necessarily reflect the 586 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:42,000 Speaker 3: views of Futuro Media or its employees.