1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff mom never told you. From how supports 2 00:00:06,519 --> 00:00:14,440 Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:17,000 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and today we're going to talk about 4 00:00:17,480 --> 00:00:23,319 Speaker 1: side crying reservation. Egg freezing. Okay, Yeah, you just take 5 00:00:23,400 --> 00:00:25,880 Speaker 1: your eggs and you put them in a little ice tray, 6 00:00:26,960 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: you run some water under it that you put it 7 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: in the freezer. Yep, and then yeah, you've got eggs 8 00:00:33,479 --> 00:00:35,599 Speaker 1: to go. Just don't get it mixed up with your 9 00:00:35,760 --> 00:00:39,440 Speaker 1: regular ice cube trays. Yeah, please, that could be That 10 00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:41,960 Speaker 1: could be bad, f y. That's not how egg freezing 11 00:00:42,000 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: works at all. Well, the reason why we're talking about 12 00:00:44,479 --> 00:00:47,159 Speaker 1: it is because a little while back now in October, 13 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: news broke that's starting in January, Facebook had begun offering 14 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:57,440 Speaker 1: up to twenty thousand dollars of egg freezing benefits for 15 00:00:57,560 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: employees under its lifetime surge to see reimbursement benefit. And 16 00:01:02,280 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: it's starting in Apple will begin offering the same deal. 17 00:01:07,720 --> 00:01:10,920 Speaker 1: And just f y, I JP Morgan and City Group 18 00:01:10,959 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 1: have already had this benefit. Why that hadn't made headlines? 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:19,600 Speaker 1: I don't know. UM, and Google will likely follow suit soon. Um. 20 00:01:19,640 --> 00:01:24,520 Speaker 1: But for whatever reason, this Facebook related news, perhaps because 21 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: of the Facebook connection to Cheryl Sandberg and leaning in 22 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:33,480 Speaker 1: and all of that. It generated so much conversation and 23 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 1: a social media freak out. Essentially, Yeah, there are all 24 00:01:37,040 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: sorts of voices that emerged on all sides of this 25 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:45,000 Speaker 1: argument over whether this benefit for women would really truly 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 1: help them advance in the workplace, especially considering it's price tag, 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 1: which is is nothing to sneeze at. But speaking of 28 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg and Lenan, Jessica Bennett, who does a lot 29 00:01:56,960 --> 00:01:59,920 Speaker 1: of work with the Lenin Foundation, wrote in Time, Maga 30 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:03,960 Speaker 1: seen that this whole egg freezing deal would be the 31 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:09,160 Speaker 1: great equalizer, and she said that it's a potential solution 32 00:02:09,240 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: to the so called myth of opting out, essentially arguing 33 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: that by allowing women to freeze their eggs and having 34 00:02:16,880 --> 00:02:20,960 Speaker 1: it covered because it is super expensive, you're letting them 35 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: choose when to have children and allowing them to choose 36 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:28,520 Speaker 1: to work harder, longer, and have kids when they're supposedly 37 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 1: ready now. Not surprisingly, when it comes to pretty much 38 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:39,400 Speaker 1: anything dealing with women choosing whether and when to have children, 39 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: it attracts a lot of controversy. Have a lot of 40 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,919 Speaker 1: people saying that's selfish, that's preposterous. This is technology gone 41 00:02:46,919 --> 00:02:48,839 Speaker 1: too far. So they are all of these voices also 42 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:52,640 Speaker 1: being tossed in, lots of accusations of women just wanting 43 00:02:52,680 --> 00:02:54,600 Speaker 1: to freeze away their eggs so that they can have 44 00:02:55,000 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 1: casual dating lives and then become mothers on their own 45 00:02:57,680 --> 00:03:00,360 Speaker 1: when they want to. What world that is? I really 46 00:03:00,360 --> 00:03:03,480 Speaker 1: don't know. UM. So that was sort of all the 47 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,839 Speaker 1: background noise to it. But when it comes to its 48 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,760 Speaker 1: impact on women's workplace life, on the opposite side of um, 49 00:03:10,840 --> 00:03:13,680 Speaker 1: Jessica Bennett talking about it being a great equalizer, we 50 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 1: have Harriet Mentor, for instance at the Guardians saying that 51 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:21,359 Speaker 1: it's really just another sign of tech companies in particular 52 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:24,640 Speaker 1: being out of touch with what women really need. And 53 00:03:24,680 --> 00:03:27,639 Speaker 1: also this is a new demand for women to give 54 00:03:27,680 --> 00:03:31,360 Speaker 1: themselves fully to their jobs. And that was a question 55 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 1: raised in my mind as well in terms of I 56 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 1: saw the news and I was like, Oh, how progressive, 57 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: and also oh wait are they what does? What is 58 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 1: the mess the ultimate message that it's sending. I have 59 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: a feeling the message was let's offer the richest benefits 60 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: possible to attract the like strongest female employees we can possible. 61 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,720 Speaker 1: But of course when it comes again to women choice 62 00:03:59,800 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: and child bearing, there's a lot of projection. Yeah, it's 63 00:04:04,320 --> 00:04:07,520 Speaker 1: it's interesting to look at all of those different voices, um, 64 00:04:07,560 --> 00:04:10,600 Speaker 1: because I think I think I fall somewhere in in 65 00:04:10,680 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 1: the middle of those two of those two ladies as 66 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: far as what they think it means. But um, we 67 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: have to talk about the science of egg freezing and 68 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:22,080 Speaker 1: what it even is, because contrary to the top of 69 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: the podcast, it is not popping your eggs in your 70 00:04:25,279 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 1: own freezer at home next year stoffers or link cuisine. True, 71 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:31,760 Speaker 1: I have I don't think there are any hacks on 72 00:04:31,760 --> 00:04:34,360 Speaker 1: the internet for how to retrieve your own eggs from 73 00:04:34,360 --> 00:04:38,359 Speaker 1: your ovaries. Although one day, ladies, perhaps one day um 74 00:04:38,400 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 1: in nineteen fifty three, the first human birth from thought 75 00:04:42,640 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: sperm happened, and in so it's taken a while, the 76 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:51,320 Speaker 1: first birth from a frozen oo site or egg happened. 77 00:04:51,360 --> 00:04:54,760 Speaker 1: And so that's also something to keep in mind, kind 78 00:04:54,760 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 1: of in the back of your head as you listen 79 00:04:56,360 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 1: to all of this, is that sperm preservation and freezing 80 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,599 Speaker 1: has been happening for a long time with far less 81 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:09,919 Speaker 1: fanfare and consternation than egg freezing. But also the technology 82 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 1: of freezing egg successfully and then following those eggs and 83 00:05:14,240 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: using them to successfully um to then successfully implant, which 84 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: would then lead to hopefully a successful pregnancy, has been 85 00:05:23,880 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 1: a lot more recent in coming because it's the largest 86 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:29,880 Speaker 1: cell in the body, and it's surrounded by a bunch 87 00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: of liquid that tends to crystallize during freezing. And when 88 00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 1: that liquid crystallizes, it breaks down the cell structure. And 89 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:40,640 Speaker 1: obviously if that starts happening, it's not going to be 90 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: very it's not gonna have good outcomes, right, And so 91 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: in two thousand and four we get a scientist in 92 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,920 Speaker 1: Japan who developed the process of vitrification or flash freezing, 93 00:05:51,480 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: which has thus paved the way for more viable egg 94 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 1: freezing today. And that's when you see a lot more 95 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: women going to their doctor to ask about the possibility 96 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 1: of not just preserving eggs in case of health problems 97 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:10,000 Speaker 1: or or things like that, but to actually look into 98 00:06:10,040 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 1: elective egg freezing because they just want to delay childbirth. Yeah, 99 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: an elective egg freezing is a really new conversation because 100 00:06:18,520 --> 00:06:21,359 Speaker 1: up until the past few years, it was really only 101 00:06:21,520 --> 00:06:26,880 Speaker 1: cancer patients facing chemotherapy induced infertility or other medical conditions 102 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: that would adversely affect fertility, who were the most common 103 00:06:30,880 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: egg freezing patients. A lot of the conversation was simply 104 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:37,479 Speaker 1: directed to them, but now with the trification, the focus 105 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:44,000 Speaker 1: is shifted to the elective egg freezing and elective use 106 00:06:44,120 --> 00:06:47,240 Speaker 1: now in order to delay childbirth was the reason sided 107 00:06:47,240 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: by sixty four percent of respondence in a two thousand 108 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: ten study, and it was followed by egg freezing to 109 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,479 Speaker 1: then be used for in vitua fertilization and then for 110 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:03,040 Speaker 1: medical reasons at a distant second. So elective use has 111 00:07:03,080 --> 00:07:06,159 Speaker 1: shot up in popularity totally. Yeah, And so how does 112 00:07:06,200 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: it work? Do they Can you just go into the 113 00:07:08,440 --> 00:07:10,400 Speaker 1: doctor one day and elect to have this done or 114 00:07:10,440 --> 00:07:12,800 Speaker 1: is their lead up? Oh? Boy, is their lead up. 115 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:16,120 Speaker 1: You basically have to have somewhere between two and four 116 00:07:16,160 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: weeks of self administered hormone injections plus birth control, which 117 00:07:19,920 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 1: basically kind of shuts off your natural hormones, followed by 118 00:07:23,720 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 1: ten to fourteen days of more hormone injections to stimulate 119 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: mature egg production, and then these ripe and ready eggs 120 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:36,200 Speaker 1: are removed by an ultrasound guided needle and are immediately 121 00:07:36,280 --> 00:07:39,119 Speaker 1: frozen at a temperature of negative one dred and ninety 122 00:07:39,160 --> 00:07:43,960 Speaker 1: six degrees celsius or negative three degrees fahrenheit, and they 123 00:07:43,960 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: can be stored by some estimates up to ten years. 124 00:07:47,280 --> 00:07:51,640 Speaker 1: Then thought then usually injected with a sperm, which is 125 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: called intra cytoplasmic sperm injection. And then hopefully that union 126 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:01,560 Speaker 1: of the thought o site and sperm will develop into 127 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 1: an embryo which will then be implanted into a uterus, 128 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:11,840 Speaker 1: which will then hopefully lead to a successful pregnancy. Now 129 00:08:11,880 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: that's a lot of steps to get to hopefully baby 130 00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: in your arms. Um. So the question then is viability. 131 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,520 Speaker 1: What is the success rate? Well, the exciting thing that 132 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 1: has led up to this sparking interest around the elective 133 00:08:27,000 --> 00:08:32,520 Speaker 1: use of egg freezing is that vitrification in particular has 134 00:08:32,679 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 1: very much increased the success rate of falling viable eggs. 135 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,360 Speaker 1: So when you hear about plus success rates when it 136 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:45,320 Speaker 1: comes to egg freezing, that is not my friends, that 137 00:08:45,480 --> 00:08:51,480 Speaker 1: is not frozen egg too. Baby in your arms success rate. 138 00:08:51,520 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: That is success rate of following viable eggs, which is 139 00:08:56,040 --> 00:08:59,520 Speaker 1: you know, hailed as a success marker for vitrification. But 140 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 1: when it comes to using it for in the hopes 141 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: of getting pregnant, one day as that being your go 142 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 1: to in the case of, Okay, you got a job 143 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,400 Speaker 1: at Facebook, awesome, you want to really get in there, 144 00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:15,640 Speaker 1: or just delay childbirth for whatever reason. Choose your choice. 145 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,000 Speaker 1: I don't care you get your eggs frozen. It doesn't 146 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: necessarily mean that you will be able to plan out 147 00:09:22,720 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: that you won't necessarily be able to plan out becoming 148 00:09:25,520 --> 00:09:30,080 Speaker 1: a mother, right exactly. And a major sticking point in 149 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: elective egg freezing was the fact that it was classified 150 00:09:34,480 --> 00:09:39,200 Speaker 1: as an experimental procedure by the American Society for Reproductive Medicine. 151 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 1: A lot of their studies were like, yeah, um, the 152 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:46,400 Speaker 1: slow freezing method of egg freezing is okay, and people 153 00:09:46,440 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: do it, and a lot of cancer patients do it. 154 00:09:49,559 --> 00:09:52,520 Speaker 1: People who are about to undergo chemotherapy do it. Um. 155 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 1: But this whole vitrification thing, it's experimental, and so insurance 156 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: companies of course follow suit and they're not going to 157 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:02,560 Speaker 1: cover it. But in any twelve the American Society for 158 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: Reproductive Medicine took vitrification off of its experimental list, which 159 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: opened the door for a lot of women to then 160 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: seek it out as an option for them in their lives. However, 161 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,319 Speaker 1: in their report, on this when they took it off 162 00:10:16,360 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: of the Experimentalist. The American Society for Reproductive Medicine talks 163 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,280 Speaker 1: about how data on the safety, efficacy, cost effectiveness, and 164 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: emotional risks of elective egg freezing are insufficient to recommend 165 00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,360 Speaker 1: elective egg freezing for women, and they said making this 166 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: technology for the purpose of just deferring childbirth may give 167 00:10:38,520 --> 00:10:43,840 Speaker 1: women false hope and encourage women to delay childbearing. So basically, 168 00:10:43,920 --> 00:10:47,320 Speaker 1: the A s r M is saying to women, don't 169 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:50,839 Speaker 1: put all your eggs in one basket. Pun pun. We 170 00:10:50,880 --> 00:10:53,920 Speaker 1: can make puns, right, we can make some ocite crime 171 00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,120 Speaker 1: preservation puns. That's right. And the reason we're getting into 172 00:10:57,120 --> 00:11:00,200 Speaker 1: this level of detail and maybe offering these and in 173 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:06,120 Speaker 1: caveats is not to throw this new and exciting technology 174 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:09,720 Speaker 1: under the bus, but also to kind of highlight the 175 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,120 Speaker 1: fact that there was all of this controversy surrounding something 176 00:11:13,120 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: that clearly a lot of people reacting to it didn't 177 00:11:17,280 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: even understand the details of um. So let's get more 178 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: in to those details. Let's talk about the age factor, 179 00:11:25,200 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 1: because obviously, when it comes to delaying childbirth, a lot 180 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: of a lot of the women that are profiled in 181 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 1: articles about it, are in their early mid thirties even 182 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:39,560 Speaker 1: late thirties wanting to delay childbearing until their forties. And 183 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: we did a whole podcast on age and fertility, the 184 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:48,680 Speaker 1: whole biological clock thing, and we talked about how egg 185 00:11:48,760 --> 00:11:54,960 Speaker 1: quality does deteriorate with age, especially after age thirty eight. 186 00:11:55,320 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: So when it comes to the prime time for getting 187 00:11:58,200 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: your eggs frozen, doctors recomm and freezing by the early thirties. 188 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,520 Speaker 1: I mean, if you can freeze your eggs in your 189 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: early twenties, doctors are like, absolutely freeze those primo eggs. 190 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:13,520 Speaker 1: But that doesn't happen as much because if you are 191 00:12:13,559 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: thinking about having a kid at that time, chances are 192 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:20,559 Speaker 1: you might just have a kid at that time. Well, 193 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,520 Speaker 1: speaking more about the age factor, the average age of 194 00:12:23,559 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: women who are freezing their eggs for non cancer related 195 00:12:26,440 --> 00:12:31,240 Speaker 1: reasons is a little over age thirty seven. Um. But 196 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,319 Speaker 1: a story in Life Science they used an online fertility 197 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,720 Speaker 1: calculator and found that a woman who freezes fifteen eggs 198 00:12:39,000 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: at age thirty two has about a twenty eight percent 199 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:47,120 Speaker 1: chance of becoming pregnant by using them, although that chance 200 00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 1: actually might be a high estimate. Yeah, the real world 201 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:54,760 Speaker 1: success rates are limited. And there still have been very 202 00:12:54,960 --> 00:12:59,240 Speaker 1: few berths from thought eggs. So keep in mind that 203 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:02,760 Speaker 1: the research catching up to this technology, and a lot 204 00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: of this research to on live births from uh O 205 00:13:07,920 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: cite cryo preservation are from women who have had fertility issues. So, 206 00:13:13,480 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 1: as the A s r M mentioned, it will be 207 00:13:17,440 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: interesting to see how these numbers would compare to women 208 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 1: who are doing more elective um egg freezing. But we'll 209 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: talk about what we know right now in terms of 210 00:13:26,760 --> 00:13:34,800 Speaker 1: success rates when we come right back from a quick break. 211 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,080 Speaker 1: So on the upside, and one of the reasons why 212 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: in two thousand twelve, the American Society for Reproductive Medicine 213 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:46,960 Speaker 1: or the a s r M took vitrification Office experimental 214 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: list is because the research conducted so far suggests that 215 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:57,040 Speaker 1: I V f intro in vitro fratilization success rates are 216 00:13:57,160 --> 00:14:02,440 Speaker 1: comparable for both frozen and fresh eggs, with no additional 217 00:14:02,559 --> 00:14:07,920 Speaker 1: risk of congenital abnormalities, but the implantation and pregnancy rates 218 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:12,480 Speaker 1: aren't a statistically sure bet. But the A s r 219 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,760 Speaker 1: M did point out, for instance, that eggs from European 220 00:14:14,800 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 1: downers under aged thirty resulted in pregnancy rates ranging from 221 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: thirty six to sixty one percent, so more reason for 222 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,680 Speaker 1: starting younger. I guess possibly um because there was a 223 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,680 Speaker 1: two thousand thirteen study from the A s r M 224 00:14:31,320 --> 00:14:34,840 Speaker 1: which is a meta analysis of the age specific probability 225 00:14:34,840 --> 00:14:39,120 Speaker 1: of live birth with mature oocite cryo preservation, which is 226 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: probably one of the most comprehensive studies we have on 227 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 1: this subject to date, and it found quote, for example, 228 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:48,400 Speaker 1: the probability of live birth for a thirty year old 229 00:14:48,440 --> 00:14:53,320 Speaker 1: woman who has two to six eggs thought is twenty 230 00:14:53,360 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 1: four point four to twenty four point one percent. With vitrification. 231 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,320 Speaker 1: When it comes to the slow for using process, the 232 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:06,000 Speaker 1: probability of live birth drops too, between nine and ten percent. 233 00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: And in this meta analysis they determined age forty four 234 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: to be the upper age limit to even offer vitrification 235 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: implantation of in other words, having the thought eggs implanted 236 00:15:20,680 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: into your well, the thought eggs then injected with sperm, 237 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:29,560 Speaker 1: then having that embryo implanted into your uterus. Although again 238 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: this is still such preliminary data because a lot of 239 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:35,840 Speaker 1: it has been based on infertil patients, so the picture 240 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,520 Speaker 1: could change if you look at fertile patients freezing specifically 241 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:46,200 Speaker 1: to delay childbirth not because of outside health reasons. Well, 242 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:48,440 Speaker 1: so we just threw a lot of science and a 243 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: lot of numbers at you. But let's get back to 244 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: that point that we brought up at the top of 245 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:57,760 Speaker 1: the podcast, where uh, certain writers have addressed the issue 246 00:15:57,920 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 1: of what this will mean for women in the world place. 247 00:16:00,600 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: Will it be the great equalizer that for instance, Jessica 248 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,360 Speaker 1: Bennett thinks it will be um And it plays into 249 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: a lot of the conversations that Kristen and I've had 250 00:16:09,920 --> 00:16:12,920 Speaker 1: on the podcast as far as the idea just the 251 00:16:12,960 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: idea of women having it all. That's right because almost 252 00:16:16,960 --> 00:16:20,480 Speaker 1: as soon as vitrification was taken off of its experimental 253 00:16:20,480 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: status in two thousand twelve, all of these trend stories 254 00:16:24,160 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: popped up on women in their mid to late thirties 255 00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:31,880 Speaker 1: freezing their eggs. And only as far back as two 256 00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,240 Speaker 1: thousand and twelve, it was clear in the tone of 257 00:16:34,240 --> 00:16:37,240 Speaker 1: a lot of these articles in response to it, that 258 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:42,560 Speaker 1: people were approaching it very cautiously, that it seemed strange 259 00:16:42,640 --> 00:16:44,320 Speaker 1: that these women were doing it. There was an air 260 00:16:44,360 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: of desperation about it. For instance, there was this New 261 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: York Times trend piece on parents and this is again 262 00:16:49,960 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve, this piece on parents funding their older 263 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: daughters egg freezing in the hopes that one day they 264 00:16:57,920 --> 00:17:03,080 Speaker 1: would have grandchildren because she just had and on Mr Wright. Yet. Yeah, 265 00:17:03,120 --> 00:17:06,520 Speaker 1: and not only do we have this piece on parents 266 00:17:06,560 --> 00:17:09,639 Speaker 1: providing for their daughters to be able to have children 267 00:17:09,680 --> 00:17:13,080 Speaker 1: at a later date, hopefully, we also have the trend 268 00:17:13,200 --> 00:17:18,560 Speaker 1: stories about women who have shelled out thousands of dollars 269 00:17:18,560 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: to go through this process and ending up having a 270 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:27,760 Speaker 1: more satisfying and relaxed dating life as a result. For instance, 271 00:17:27,800 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 1: Sarah Elizabeth Richards wrote an op ed in The Wall 272 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:34,920 Speaker 1: Street Journal in which she discussed spending fifty thousand dollars 273 00:17:34,960 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: on the whole egg freezing process and the fact that 274 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:42,080 Speaker 1: it revolutionized her dating life because suddenly she's not so 275 00:17:42,119 --> 00:17:46,879 Speaker 1: worried about weighing every man's ability to be a father 276 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,000 Speaker 1: and a husband and all this stuff. She can just 277 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: date to date and hopefully find love at her own 278 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 1: pace because she knows that she has her eggs banked. Yeah. 279 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 1: And what comes into a lot of these conversations are 280 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:06,800 Speaker 1: mentions of having it all, leaning in owning yourself and 281 00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,359 Speaker 1: still finding Mr. Wright. And like all of these things, 282 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:13,000 Speaker 1: it's a lot of Times. These stories on it which 283 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,480 Speaker 1: profile these um women in their men to late thirties 284 00:18:17,520 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: early forties, are very it's it fits a very particular 285 00:18:22,160 --> 00:18:28,320 Speaker 1: mold of this um woman today who um we almost 286 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: it's like it's not pity, but it's like this woman 287 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 1: trying to have it all and yet she's sacrificed love 288 00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,679 Speaker 1: for her career, but now she's found a way to 289 00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:42,120 Speaker 1: get it back. And and in that Wall Street Journal piece, 290 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: Richard's even tosses in a cheeky reference to leaning in 291 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 1: you know. She says, well, this is this is the 292 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: way that we can do it because we can legitimately 293 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: plan everything out, and she cites a lot of other 294 00:18:56,240 --> 00:18:59,480 Speaker 1: women saying that as soon as they freeze their eggs, 295 00:18:59,520 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 1: everything ing, all the dominoes seemed to fall right into place. 296 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,800 Speaker 1: And then we have a story that features Bridget Adams, 297 00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:11,520 Speaker 1: who launches the website egg surance dot com. Bridget was 298 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:15,960 Speaker 1: going through similar things to Richards and to the women 299 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:18,600 Speaker 1: featured in the New York Times piece on egg freezing, 300 00:19:19,040 --> 00:19:22,480 Speaker 1: wanting to have children, not finding the right man um 301 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,879 Speaker 1: and so she created this online community where women like 302 00:19:25,960 --> 00:19:28,840 Speaker 1: her could come together and trade tips and tricks and 303 00:19:28,880 --> 00:19:32,960 Speaker 1: advice and basically just communicate to each other about the 304 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: whole process. Yeah. And in the Time article featuring her 305 00:19:37,400 --> 00:19:41,000 Speaker 1: and other women as well, the lead was she's already 306 00:19:41,040 --> 00:19:43,320 Speaker 1: got a copy of Goodnight Moon to read to her 307 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:47,120 Speaker 1: unborn child. And so there is an air of that 308 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: with a lot of these profiles in terms of these women. 309 00:19:50,720 --> 00:19:52,560 Speaker 1: Look look at these women. They already have they already 310 00:19:52,560 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: have these books booked picked out. Some women already have 311 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: names picked out, and now they're freezing their eggs. And 312 00:19:58,200 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: there's so little recognition that of actual science. And I'm 313 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:07,000 Speaker 1: not trying to um criticize these women's approach at all, 314 00:20:07,119 --> 00:20:11,480 Speaker 1: it's more the portrayal, right, Yeah, And something that I 315 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 1: was gonna say as far as Richard's leaning in on 316 00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,359 Speaker 1: her reference and Bridget already having the books for her child, Like, 317 00:20:18,680 --> 00:20:22,439 Speaker 1: that's all wonderful and you absolutely should plan. Um. But 318 00:20:22,640 --> 00:20:24,679 Speaker 1: I mean, as we've kind of touched on earlier in 319 00:20:24,680 --> 00:20:30,840 Speaker 1: this episode, the science and the numbers don't very strongly 320 00:20:30,920 --> 00:20:33,159 Speaker 1: back up the assertion that you definitely will have a 321 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,440 Speaker 1: baby from this. And so while it is great any 322 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: time a woman can have a say over her reproductive 323 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,480 Speaker 1: choices in life, that's wonderful and women should have more 324 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:46,359 Speaker 1: choices for everything and be able to choose the lives 325 00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,359 Speaker 1: in the past that they want. However, a lot of 326 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: people in these articles point out like, well, that's great, 327 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:55,919 Speaker 1: you might end up forty two, totally ready to go, 328 00:20:56,000 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 1: have your eggs thought and create an embryo and be 329 00:20:58,560 --> 00:21:00,840 Speaker 1: ready to go, but it's just might not happen too 330 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,880 Speaker 1: So there's always the the fear out there that while 331 00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:09,280 Speaker 1: you've planned for this so carefully, things don't always go 332 00:21:09,280 --> 00:21:14,400 Speaker 1: according to plan. But regardless, fertility clinics offering egg freezing 333 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:18,840 Speaker 1: have been reporting upticks and patients seeking the treatment. Clearly 334 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,879 Speaker 1: word has gotten out, but this is an issue again, 335 00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,800 Speaker 1: which is great, especially for um couples who have been 336 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: dealing with infertility or for women wanting to, you know, 337 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: take more control over their reproductive cycles. But this question, though, 338 00:21:34,880 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: this ultimate question that that really got me in Caroline 339 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,520 Speaker 1: thinking and talking about this, is this question of whether 340 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,560 Speaker 1: or not it is this great equalizer, particularly in the workplace, 341 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:48,200 Speaker 1: and when you look at the economics of egg freezing 342 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:51,480 Speaker 1: on top of the science and what we there's still 343 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:53,000 Speaker 1: a lot that we need to know in terms of 344 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:57,400 Speaker 1: viability and success rates. That might change in technology will 345 00:21:57,400 --> 00:22:02,119 Speaker 1: probably improve, But when it just simply comes to who 346 00:22:02,400 --> 00:22:08,440 Speaker 1: can access this service, it could be a great equalizer, 347 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: but for very few women. Yeah, and I mean this 348 00:22:11,440 --> 00:22:13,920 Speaker 1: goes back to a lot of the criticisms that we've 349 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:17,440 Speaker 1: heard about lean In, specifically in terms of, like, it's 350 00:22:17,520 --> 00:22:23,119 Speaker 1: wonderful advice. It's fantastic advice for career women, women who 351 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 1: are in a very specific segment of the working population. 352 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 1: But for a lot of women, like say, shift workers, waitresses, 353 00:22:30,840 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: things like that, the lean In advice doesn't apply to 354 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,240 Speaker 1: their working lives quite as well. And so it's kind 355 00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 1: of the same thing when you have companies like Google 356 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: and Facebook offering egg freezing. That's wonderful, but it is 357 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:49,640 Speaker 1: so expensive, and so it's really only open to very 358 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 1: specific segments of the population. Yeah. For instance, that Facebook 359 00:22:53,359 --> 00:22:58,200 Speaker 1: benefit covers up to of this, which might sound very 360 00:22:58,240 --> 00:23:01,760 Speaker 1: generous and it is very general us. However, that would 361 00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:05,880 Speaker 1: have not even covered half of what Sarah Elizabeth Richards, 362 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,640 Speaker 1: who wrote that Wall Street Journal apot an entire book 363 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,920 Speaker 1: about this um. That would have covered less than half 364 00:23:12,000 --> 00:23:15,159 Speaker 1: of the fifty thousand dollars that she spent on it. 365 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: Because the cost for a single cycle of egg retrieval 366 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 1: and freezing usually runs between five to eighteen thousand dollars, 367 00:23:25,440 --> 00:23:28,160 Speaker 1: not including the cost of hormone injections, which can run 368 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: a few grand, and egg storage which is typically five 369 00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 1: dollars per month, and the fact that it often requires 370 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 1: more than one cycle to retrieve enough viable eggs, so 371 00:23:39,720 --> 00:23:42,760 Speaker 1: at the end of the day, we're talking easily tens 372 00:23:42,760 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: of thousands of dollars. There are some clinics that offer 373 00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 1: financial breaks, but it is highly, highly costly, right and 374 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,280 Speaker 1: Dr Beth Kennard, who is the director of the Division 375 00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,480 Speaker 1: of Reproductive indo Chronology and Infertility at the Ohio State 376 00:23:57,560 --> 00:24:01,959 Speaker 1: University Wexner Medical Center, points out something else about the price. 377 00:24:02,560 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 1: She says that the first in vitro fertilization procedure was 378 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,560 Speaker 1: done back in nine but it's still not a technology 379 00:24:10,640 --> 00:24:13,320 Speaker 1: and a procedure that every woman can afford to do, 380 00:24:13,359 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: and it's been around for a while, and you take 381 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:19,679 Speaker 1: into account how new this vitrification processes, for instance, and 382 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:21,840 Speaker 1: the fact that it is so expensive, and it just 383 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,200 Speaker 1: makes sense that the price probably isn't going to come 384 00:24:24,200 --> 00:24:28,320 Speaker 1: down a significant amount anytime soon. And speaking more on 385 00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:32,720 Speaker 1: in vitro fertilization specifically UM. According to the CDC in twos, 386 00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:36,120 Speaker 1: about one point five percent of US bursts we're through 387 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:40,240 Speaker 1: assisted reproductive technology, which includes IVF. So that's still that's 388 00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:42,760 Speaker 1: still not a huge number. Yeah, I mean if if 389 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,120 Speaker 1: in Rebecca Mead made a great point about this at 390 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:50,000 Speaker 1: The New Yorker saying, fine, well, and good for you 391 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:54,280 Speaker 1: to offer this as part of a comprehensive surrogacy benefit 392 00:24:54,640 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: package to your employees companies, go for it. However, if 393 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:03,400 Speaker 1: we really want to tackle that myth of opting out 394 00:25:03,480 --> 00:25:08,840 Speaker 1: the whole motherhood versus career, all of these conversations that 395 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,800 Speaker 1: even as a woman who is not a mother, I 396 00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,200 Speaker 1: think about a lot in terms of is this something? 397 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: Can I handle this in my reproductive future? If we 398 00:25:18,080 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 1: really want to tackle that, it's going to take a 399 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:25,000 Speaker 1: lot more than some egg freezing benefits. Because American women 400 00:25:25,359 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: continue to evase issues such as the fact that we 401 00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,560 Speaker 1: have limited availability to subsidize care for preschool children. There 402 00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:35,800 Speaker 1: is quote the resistance of corporate culture, too flexible or 403 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:39,119 Speaker 1: reduced hours for the parents of young children, an a 404 00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: lack of federally mandated paid family leave. The US is 405 00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:46,560 Speaker 1: far behind so many other countries when it comes to 406 00:25:46,800 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: maternity and paternity leave as well. There there's a lot 407 00:25:52,960 --> 00:25:57,600 Speaker 1: going on that egg freezing is not going to fix. 408 00:25:57,760 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: And I think that something as hyperbolic as the Great 409 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,720 Speaker 1: Equalizer needs to be accessible to more than just the 410 00:26:05,880 --> 00:26:11,119 Speaker 1: very top elite percent of women who are getting jobs 411 00:26:11,119 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: at these top elite companies. Yeah, and I mean it 412 00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:17,280 Speaker 1: is great. I mean we've established as you've said this, like, 413 00:26:17,320 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: it is great that these companies are offering it, of course, 414 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,200 Speaker 1: but it it just seems like they're trying to fill 415 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: in the gaps that they can, um, because we have 416 00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,000 Speaker 1: I mean, we're in the dark ages in our country 417 00:26:30,040 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 1: as far as providing these types of benefits to mothers 418 00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:36,120 Speaker 1: and families who are looking to have children, take care 419 00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:38,840 Speaker 1: of children, but also continue to work and have a 420 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:43,960 Speaker 1: full life that way. Um, I agree totally with Rebecca 421 00:26:44,000 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: me that we have so many, just like society issues 422 00:26:47,400 --> 00:26:51,119 Speaker 1: in our country that needs to be examined. It's great 423 00:26:51,200 --> 00:26:54,480 Speaker 1: that this egg freezing thing is an option for people. 424 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 1: That's wonderful that anytime you can, like I said, anytime 425 00:26:57,320 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: you can have control every reproductive health. But the criticism 426 00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: comes in when it's only open to a very certain 427 00:27:03,880 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 1: segment of people well, and even for that segment of 428 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: people that the option might be financially available too, it's 429 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,320 Speaker 1: still crucial to understand the science behind it and understand 430 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:22,760 Speaker 1: that there are a lot of steps involved and it 431 00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:27,720 Speaker 1: isn't necessarily locking down a guaranteed future, and perhaps so 432 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,440 Speaker 1: as the data continues to roll in on the success rates, 433 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:38,320 Speaker 1: particularly for um fertile women, taking advantage of elective vitrification 434 00:27:39,119 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: is maybe taking a step back to and also addressing 435 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:48,159 Speaker 1: the social and cultural factors at work that create so 436 00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,159 Speaker 1: much panic and freak out over the idea yet again 437 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: of women having some potential, say over childbearing. Yeah, I 438 00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,520 Speaker 1: mean we we haven't even gotten fully into that issue 439 00:28:02,680 --> 00:28:04,359 Speaker 1: in this episode, because I feel like that could be 440 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,600 Speaker 1: its own episode. But I mean, Christen and I definitely 441 00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:08,320 Speaker 1: were talking about the comments that we saw on a 442 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,840 Speaker 1: lot of these articles featuring these women who had made 443 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:13,800 Speaker 1: this life choice, and a lot of people again it 444 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:18,439 Speaker 1: was the the old refrain of how selfish. Um. It 445 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: was the refrain of you know, you're going against nature 446 00:28:21,560 --> 00:28:26,680 Speaker 1: or God, Um, you are breaking up what family should be, 447 00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 1: when in reality it's like, okay, first of all, just 448 00:28:29,160 --> 00:28:32,360 Speaker 1: lay off these women for making their personal choices. But 449 00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,119 Speaker 1: but second of all, a lot of these women that 450 00:28:34,160 --> 00:28:37,600 Speaker 1: are featured in these stories, they do want a family. 451 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,400 Speaker 1: They do want a life partner to raise a child with. 452 00:28:41,880 --> 00:28:45,360 Speaker 1: But because of just the way that things are structured 453 00:28:45,440 --> 00:28:48,160 Speaker 1: and the way that things have shaken out, you know, 454 00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 1: their career has come first, or they just haven't found 455 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,680 Speaker 1: the right person. But I heard in a lot of 456 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: those stories to the echoes of this to me tired 457 00:28:57,520 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: and outdated and honestly us leading myth of having it all. Yeah, 458 00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: I think that it's time to get rid of that 459 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: goal post because it is a complete mirage. But now 460 00:29:10,080 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: we want to hear from you. I have a feeling 461 00:29:12,120 --> 00:29:15,560 Speaker 1: there are a lot of thoughts running through listeners heads 462 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: right now, and we want to hear from you on 463 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: this issue. What do you think about it? And would 464 00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: you take advantage of this? Have you taken advantage of this? 465 00:29:25,280 --> 00:29:27,360 Speaker 1: If you're a woman who has frozen her eggs, we 466 00:29:27,440 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: absolutely want to hear from you too. Mom Stuff at 467 00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,320 Speaker 1: how stuffworks dot com is our email address. You can 468 00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:35,480 Speaker 1: also tweet us at mom stuff, podcasts and messages on Facebook, 469 00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,640 Speaker 1: and we've got a couple of messages to share with 470 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 1: you when we come right back from a quick break 471 00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:46,800 Speaker 1: and now back to the show. Well, I've got a 472 00:29:46,800 --> 00:29:51,240 Speaker 1: Facebook message here from Maddie about our episode on vegetarianism 473 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: or being a Pythagorean if you're old school like that, 474 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: he writes. My name is Matt from Sydney, Australia. I've 475 00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: been listening to the podcast for a while now and 476 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 1: thoroughly enjoy it. I only just listened to the vegetarian 477 00:30:03,400 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: episode and had some thoughts. I've been vigo now for 478 00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: two years. I grew up in a very neat centric 479 00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: family and circle of friends. I was even an apprentice 480 00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 1: butcher for a couple of years. I decided to stop 481 00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: eating meat, mostly for environmental reasons. I understand the ethical 482 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:21,920 Speaker 1: and health aspect of it too, but it was the 483 00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:25,040 Speaker 1: waste resources and farmland that cattle needed that really got 484 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,040 Speaker 1: to me. I do have to admit that I'm still 485 00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 1: a little overweight, but try to keep it fairly healthy. 486 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,200 Speaker 1: It wasn't until I listened to the podcast I realized 487 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: the vast majority of my friends who are vegetarian and 488 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,800 Speaker 1: are vegan are indeed female. When I first stopped eating meat, 489 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: the most grief I got was definitely from my male 490 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 1: meat eating friends. It also is still to have to 491 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: be the only person at a very big family at 492 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 1: Christmas who doesn't partake in the two turkeys and two 493 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,520 Speaker 1: hands we have every year. But my family is starting 494 00:30:51,560 --> 00:30:53,720 Speaker 1: to get used to it. But it's when I go 495 00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 1: out with my guy friends that it's the toughest. I 496 00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,640 Speaker 1: don't know if they're just curious or recognize that I'm 497 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,720 Speaker 1: an easy target, but I get a lot of slack 498 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:04,040 Speaker 1: from them, to the point to where I've actually lost 499 00:31:04,120 --> 00:31:06,760 Speaker 1: friendships because of it. It's probably for the best, but 500 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:10,440 Speaker 1: it sucks that some people can still be so against 501 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: the idea. It confuses me. It confuses me to matt Um. 502 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Sarah about our Women 503 00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: in the Art of Dying episode where Kristen and I 504 00:31:23,000 --> 00:31:28,640 Speaker 1: interviewed Kate Sweeney Um. Sarah shares a great story. She says, 505 00:31:28,920 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is necessarily a death ritual, 506 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: but my aunt Roxanne, who passed about three years ago 507 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,360 Speaker 1: from breast cancer, requested that some of her ashes be 508 00:31:36,440 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 1: left in Japan, where she was born. I happen to 509 00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 1: travel there about a year after her passing, and ended 510 00:31:41,600 --> 00:31:43,640 Speaker 1: up taking a small bag of her ashes with me. 511 00:31:44,080 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: I spread them in this beautiful snow covered canyon in 512 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:50,280 Speaker 1: a national park, but it wasn't easy. As I was 513 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: pulling her ashes out from my coat pocket, a large 514 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,800 Speaker 1: male Japanese macaque monkey jumped out and charged me. I 515 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:01,160 Speaker 1: tried walking away for man, but he kept jumping up 516 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:03,200 Speaker 1: at my hands, grabbing for the crinkly bag that he 517 00:32:03,240 --> 00:32:05,680 Speaker 1: thought had food. I ended up having to turn my 518 00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: back on the greedy monkey to quickly pass the ashes 519 00:32:08,120 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: off to my boyfriend, who then walked one way down 520 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 1: the path while I walked the other way with the 521 00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,479 Speaker 1: snow monkey following me. The mccaque was eventually distracted by 522 00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,080 Speaker 1: another group of tourists passing by with the crinkly items, 523 00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 1: and I was able to spread my aunt's ashes in peace. 524 00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure she was the one who sent the monkey, 525 00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:27,880 Speaker 1: as she always had a mischievous sense of humor. So 526 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:31,160 Speaker 1: thank you so much for your story, Sarah, and I'm 527 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:34,360 Speaker 1: not laughing at you. I'm laughing with you, and thanks 528 00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: everybody who's written into us. Mom Stuff at house stutworks 529 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 1: dot com is our email address. 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