WEBVTT - ADLANDIA Returns with Malcolm Gladwell 0:00:10.880 --> 0:00:15.280 What's up. I'm Laura and I'm Alexa Kristen. Welcome back 0:00:15.640 --> 0:00:19.200 at Landia. It's been too long. We have missed you 0:00:19.800 --> 0:00:22.759 so much. It's been more than a year. Alexa. The 0:00:22.840 --> 0:00:25.279 last time we were on the mic was early March. 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:28.400 Last time we had mics in front of our faces. 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:32.120 We're in Brooklyn with Panoply, and now we are over 0:00:32.280 --> 0:00:36.880 at I Heart Radio with our friends, our new producer Ryan. 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:40.159 He's amazing, he's in the fam. It's just great to 0:00:40.159 --> 0:00:43.080 be back, you know. Over the last year, of course, 0:00:43.159 --> 0:00:46.440 Laura and I talk all the time, talk about what's 0:00:46.440 --> 0:00:48.960 happening in the industry, talk about what's happening in business, 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:52.560 talk about what's happening in the world. And I think 0:00:53.520 --> 0:00:55.760 we felt like it was really important to come back. 0:00:56.480 --> 0:00:59.920 And you know, now more than ever, bring the outside in. 0:01:00.440 --> 0:01:04.720 And I think what's really important is this mindset in 0:01:04.959 --> 0:01:09.200 the way that we kind of push to pull, right, 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:12.440 we pushed to pull from the outside. I love them. 0:01:12.480 --> 0:01:17.360 So we're gonna push at Landia to pull in new voices, 0:01:17.480 --> 0:01:22.320 new faces, new thoughts. Speaking of new friends, um little 0:01:22.360 --> 0:01:25.680 sneak peek. Lisa Sherman from the Ad Council is going 0:01:25.680 --> 0:01:29.080 to be on the show later in the season. UM. 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:32.440 When we were on the show and recording with Lisa, 0:01:32.720 --> 0:01:35.400 we had a great idea kind of off mike with 0:01:35.440 --> 0:01:39.120 her to do something to really highlight what the industry 0:01:39.160 --> 0:01:42.640 can be doing kind of constantly, to be thinking about 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:47.920 um purpose, giving back, nonprofit. And so we created kind 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.160 of this special segment that we're going to be featuring 0:01:50.200 --> 0:01:53.520 on the show called good Landia. And we'll be talking 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:55.320 a little bit later in the show about the good 0:01:55.360 --> 0:01:57.880 Landia segment. UM for the month of October, we will 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:00.800 be focused on getting out the vote. We're also going 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:03.600 to be chatting later in the season with Ian Schaefer, 0:02:03.800 --> 0:02:06.800 co founder and CEO of Kindred, talking about the intersection 0:02:06.840 --> 0:02:10.200 of purpose and profit. And we have a big partnership 0:02:10.280 --> 0:02:13.040 that we're announcing that brings you more of at Landia 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:16.360 off the mic um available every day. You can go 0:02:16.400 --> 0:02:19.160 and register now to our new digital zine with our 0:02:19.160 --> 0:02:23.480 partners at new Stand at www dot new stand dot 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.160 com backslash new Landia. So new Landia is going to 0:02:27.240 --> 0:02:30.480 be a curation of content from contributors around the industry. 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.360 Go check that out. Register It is free to join. 0:02:33.639 --> 0:02:36.280 So excited about it. And maybe there'll be some merch drops. 0:02:36.560 --> 0:02:39.760 Maybe I think we're all in on the merch drops done, 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:41.560 and we'd like to take a minute to thank our 0:02:41.600 --> 0:02:44.239 partners over at Yield Move for helping us bring back 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:46.560 the show. We'll be chatting with the old Move over 0:02:46.600 --> 0:02:48.919 the course of the next few episodes, talking about making 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.959 attention actionable, something Alexa and I have talked about at 0:02:52.040 --> 0:02:54.519 length on the show, so we're excited to dig back 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.960 in with them in a four part mini series coming 0:02:56.960 --> 0:02:59.600 too soon, thanks again to our launch partner, You'll know 0:03:00.000 --> 0:03:02.160 yourm But that said, we have a big interview to 0:03:02.200 --> 0:03:05.280 get to. We have a really special first episode and 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:08.639 we were really excited about it. Malcolm Gladwell. It was 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.720 an amazing conversation and I think you know what was 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:15.519 really for me. There are a couple of great points 0:03:15.520 --> 0:03:17.880 of clarity when he starts to talk about and you 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:19.760 guys will hear it when he starts to talk about 0:03:19.760 --> 0:03:24.720 storytelling in such a simple way with no pretense. For me, 0:03:24.840 --> 0:03:28.200 I've got to underscore the no pretense because I feel 0:03:28.200 --> 0:03:34.240 like right now, you know, as marketers, as advertisers, we 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:39.440 need to do the best work and just be focused 0:03:39.480 --> 0:03:41.960 on the best work with no pretense, none of the 0:03:42.000 --> 0:03:44.880 pomp and circumstance, because that a lot of that's been 0:03:44.880 --> 0:03:48.200 stripped away. I couldn't agree more. I think is a 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:53.320 real important reminder for brand marketers who are writing briefs 0:03:53.480 --> 0:03:57.120 and sitting in the rooms making decisions about what narratives 0:03:57.120 --> 0:03:59.640 get put out into the world. So I'm excited for 0:03:59.680 --> 0:04:03.760 everyone to hear this amazing first interview with Malcolm Gladwell. 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.719 Welcome back at Lantia. We are so excited to welcome 0:04:17.800 --> 0:04:21.560 Malcolm Gladwell, New York Times best selling author of books 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:25.320 including The Tipping Point, Blank Outliers, David and Goliath, and Moore, 0:04:25.839 --> 0:04:29.080 including most recently Talking to Strangers. Go pick that up. 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:32.800 It's available now. Writer for The New Yorker, recognized as 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.040 one of Times one hundred most Influential People, podcast hosts 0:04:36.040 --> 0:04:39.160 of revisionist History and one of my personal favorites Broken Record, 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:43.520 and also co founder of Pushkin Industries. Malcolm, Welcome to Atlantia. 0:04:43.760 --> 0:04:48.920 Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Malcolm. We, you know, 0:04:49.600 --> 0:04:53.960 are huge fans of revisionist history and we love that. 0:04:54.279 --> 0:04:57.799 You know, revisionist history is about the kind of story 0:04:57.960 --> 0:05:01.279 that was not told or the true behind a person 0:05:01.360 --> 0:05:06.000 that wasn't recognized, and you're amazing kind of pulling these 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:11.680 stories and these characters out of history and retelling a story. 0:05:11.800 --> 0:05:17.240 What's the most unlikely kind of storyteller that you admire 0:05:17.800 --> 0:05:24.400 most in the pastor present? Unlikely? Who's the unrecognized storyteller 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:27.440 that you point to in your head. That's a really 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.240 good idea good question. Well, I suppose in your definition 0:05:30.240 --> 0:05:36.120 of unlikely. I read a lot of thrillers, spy stories, 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:40.160 those kinds of things, and I tend to think that 0:05:41.040 --> 0:05:42.760 if you want to learn how to tell a story, 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:47.680 that's the way, that's where to look. And so, you know, 0:05:47.720 --> 0:05:52.359 I've read every Jack Reacher novel. I have read every 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:56.159 Stephen Hunter novel. I have read every John Lacarey novel. 0:05:56.520 --> 0:05:59.159 When I was a kid, I read every Christie novel. 0:06:00.560 --> 0:06:02.760 When I was even younger, I read every I think 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:05.760 I read every Hardy Boys book. You know. I I've 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:09.560 always thought that that the principles of good storytelling our 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.839 universal and people in the world of fiction are probably 0:06:13.880 --> 0:06:15.599 a step ahead of those of us in the world 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:17.919 of nonfiction, and that's what we ought to you know, 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.520 there's just questions about a lot of it is about pacing. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:24.919 You know, storytelling is fundamentally I think a question of pacing, 0:06:25.040 --> 0:06:29.120 that things have to come at the right moment um, 0:06:29.279 --> 0:06:32.320 and you if you rush it, it doesn't work, and 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:35.160 if you are too slow, it doesn't work. And that's 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:39.600 what not That's what novelists think about endlessly, and I 0:06:39.640 --> 0:06:42.200 don't know whether we in the nonfiction world pay enough 0:06:42.200 --> 0:06:45.440 attention to that particular problem. Can we go a step 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:50.000 further and talk about storytelling in the advertising world. I 0:06:50.080 --> 0:06:52.479 know a fun fact, Malcolm, that I learned about you 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:56.360 recently is that, um, you wanted to start out of 0:06:56.440 --> 0:06:59.800 school a career in advertising, and so there must have 0:06:59.839 --> 0:07:03.320 been and something about storytelling through the lens of advertising 0:07:03.360 --> 0:07:06.400 and marketing that intrigued you. How would you take what 0:07:06.520 --> 0:07:10.320 you just shared and apply that a step further to 0:07:10.480 --> 0:07:14.240 storytelling as it applies to brands. Well, the reason I 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.640 was obsessed and I remained obsessed with advertising, and I 0:07:16.680 --> 0:07:19.280 did you quite right. Coming out of college, what I 0:07:19.360 --> 0:07:21.800 really wanted to do was go and work for an 0:07:21.840 --> 0:07:26.080 ad agency. I applied to I think sixteen agencies and 0:07:26.160 --> 0:07:28.840 got sixteen rejections. So that's why I went into journalism, 0:07:28.840 --> 0:07:30.560 Because I couldn't get a job with my first love. 0:07:30.680 --> 0:07:35.560 But what I admired was the economy of advertising. The 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.480 idea that you can tell a story in a thirty 0:07:38.480 --> 0:07:44.240 second television commercial is to me so fantastic and unbelievable, 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:46.960 and my I've often I always think people who do 0:07:47.000 --> 0:07:50.280 those ads are the the greatest of all storytellers. You 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.000 know that famous line of Mark Twain's I wrote you 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:56.520 a long letter because I didn't have time to write 0:07:56.520 --> 0:07:58.920 you a short one, and his point being it's harder 0:07:58.960 --> 0:08:03.160 to tell a story briefly then at length, is so true. 0:08:03.240 --> 0:08:05.800 And the idea that there are television commercials that for 0:08:05.840 --> 0:08:09.880 thirty seconds long, where you you feel like you have 0:08:10.200 --> 0:08:13.480 entered into someone's experience and you feel like a story 0:08:13.520 --> 0:08:16.400 has been told from beginning to end in thirty seconds, 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.680 it's just unbelievable to me. I mean, I don't think 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:21.480 I could do it, which is why I'm in such 0:08:22.440 --> 0:08:24.760 of it. From time to time, I call up if 0:08:24.760 --> 0:08:26.360 I see an that I really love. On more than 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:29.720 one occasion, I have tracked down the person responsible for 0:08:29.800 --> 0:08:33.120 it just to talk to them. Can you tell us 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:35.280 about a time when you did that? Yeah, there was 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.040 one very memorable one, there was a Heineken ad where 0:08:38.040 --> 0:08:41.280 there were a bunch of people, young people in the 0:08:41.360 --> 0:08:45.600 back of a taxi cab and the taxi driver, who's 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.400 this crusty old guy is is playing up. I think 0:08:48.440 --> 0:08:51.760 it's a bell deev Devot song. They all start singing along. 0:08:51.920 --> 0:08:53.760 It's this lovely moment because it's I think it's a 0:08:53.760 --> 0:08:57.760 guy and two girls and they're clearly coming home from 0:08:57.760 --> 0:08:59.080 that out of the town and they're just a little 0:08:59.080 --> 0:09:02.760 bit tipsy, and they start singing along to that song. 0:09:03.040 --> 0:09:06.560 And then the taxi driver joins in and he's like 0:09:06.600 --> 0:09:10.760 a seventy year old, angry looking guy, and it's just 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:14.880 so lovely, Like everything about it is perfect. And I 0:09:14.920 --> 0:09:17.079 call it the guy I was gonna do something. I 0:09:17.240 --> 0:09:19.280 never ended up writing about it, but I just wanted 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:21.520 to talk to the guy who did it, just just 0:09:21.559 --> 0:09:25.559 say like, I'm sorry, that's genius, Like everything about it. 0:09:25.920 --> 0:09:29.079 I just had him tell me how that aad came 0:09:29.120 --> 0:09:31.599 about and how it was filmed, and I feel like 0:09:31.640 --> 0:09:33.720 we started a new show where I think we just 0:09:33.720 --> 0:09:36.960 started a new show. Malcolm can critique ads and or 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.480 find out the origin story of them if anybody's interested 0:09:40.520 --> 0:09:44.160 in making that show called pushkin there's a Google Chrome 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.199 ad too that I never did I talk to the 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:48.800 guy who did it, or did I talk to someone 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.920 who knew the guy did it. I once on um 0:09:53.000 --> 0:09:57.640 abbot Kinney in Venice ran into somebody who said hello. 0:09:57.679 --> 0:09:59.520 It turns out he worked for an emergency and we 0:09:59.520 --> 0:10:02.120 started talking king about our favorite ads, and I started 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:06.040 talking about that Google Chrome ad where the father. If 0:10:06.080 --> 0:10:09.920 you're not crying fifteen seconds into this one, you have 0:10:10.000 --> 0:10:14.120 no heart. It's unbelieval. It's the she's gone to college 0:10:14.400 --> 0:10:18.160 and she's emailing with her dad and there you don't 0:10:18.200 --> 0:10:22.319 realize until halfway in that that her dad is all 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:25.440 she has left. Mom has just died. And there they're 0:10:25.600 --> 0:10:28.880 they're wondering about how they they're missing the mom and wondering. 0:10:29.280 --> 0:10:32.160 And as the dad is typing about the mother and 0:10:32.160 --> 0:10:35.040 telling you the mother's dad, he all you see is 0:10:35.080 --> 0:10:38.440 his key strokes, and his key strokes slowed down, and 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:41.360 it's just like at that moment, it's just it is 0:10:41.880 --> 0:10:45.120 gut wrenching. Do you cry, ads? Do you correct? Oh? 0:10:45.160 --> 0:10:47.679 My god, yeah, I totally cry. Why, I mean, of 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:53.040 course that's I cry. You remember the legendary Hallmark ads. Yeah, 0:10:53.080 --> 0:10:55.200 I mean I was in tears. So the power of 0:10:55.280 --> 0:10:59.240 storytelling is obviously something that you've created, but it also 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.160 clearly reason rates with you. One of the things that 0:11:02.240 --> 0:11:05.079 we are curious to talk about is as you're such 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:08.080 a successful podcast host who has a massed an audience. 0:11:08.080 --> 0:11:10.600 I think you're something at three million downloads per episode 0:11:10.600 --> 0:11:13.560 of Revisionist History, you know, thinking Malcolm about what it 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:17.760 takes to create or build an audience of that size, 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:22.080 but then also integrate brands into the conversation in such 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:23.880 a way where you don't skip a beat and that 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:27.840 your audience is looking for the ads and or connects, 0:11:28.000 --> 0:11:30.960 you know, sort of the message. Perhaps, How do you 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.000 think about integrating ads? I know you had some that 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:36.440 you've wanted to make over the years that never came 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.400 to fruition, one of which you shared around zip Recruiter 0:11:39.600 --> 0:11:42.199 and and the st Bernard. Can you talk to our 0:11:42.240 --> 0:11:46.680 audience about how they should think about engaging with you 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:49.520 as a podcast host and more importantly, connecting with your 0:11:49.559 --> 0:11:54.000 audience in a meaningful way. Yeah, well, my I think 0:11:54.000 --> 0:11:58.720 of my audience as as having a shared sensibility, not 0:11:58.800 --> 0:12:04.800 a shared demographic, and so I sort of know I 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:09.920 have an intuitive sense about why they're listening and why 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:14.960 they're reading my book, which is they I think they 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:17.880 share the same kind of curiosity I have and the 0:12:18.000 --> 0:12:23.160 same sense of mischief. I don't take things that seriously, 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:25.800 I mean every now and again, But I'm also I 0:12:25.800 --> 0:12:29.120 don't take myself, you know, insane these here. I mean, 0:12:29.120 --> 0:12:31.000 there's a kind of I don't know. There's a certain 0:12:31.800 --> 0:12:36.920 there's a certain personality to revisionist history that um and 0:12:37.040 --> 0:12:39.480 I think that the people who listen are people who 0:12:39.480 --> 0:12:41.880 don't necessarily agree with me, with people who just have 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:47.560 that and appreciation for that personality. It's really my dad's personality. 0:12:47.800 --> 0:12:55.199 My father was someone who took like three things really seriously, mathematics, gardening, 0:12:55.360 --> 0:12:59.440 and the Bible and nothing else. Everything else was up 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.720 for grabs. He could be convinced, he could joke about it, 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:05.200 he could make fun of himself. I mean, outside of 0:13:05.200 --> 0:13:08.360 those three realms, it just was Everything for him was 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:14.360 a speculative exercise in in enjoyment and curiosity. And and 0:13:14.400 --> 0:13:15.960 I sort of in the same way, have a couple 0:13:16.000 --> 0:13:18.520 of things that I'm passionate about, but the rest and 0:13:18.559 --> 0:13:21.520 I think people listen will share that, And so we're 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:25.559 interested in. I think of ideas as things that are 0:13:25.600 --> 0:13:31.160 not just informative and interesting, but fun. I think it 0:13:31.160 --> 0:13:33.800 should be as fun to explore an idea as it 0:13:33.880 --> 0:13:38.920 is to watch a movie or listen to an incredible song, 0:13:39.360 --> 0:13:42.800 or go for an amazing walk, or whatever your choice 0:13:42.800 --> 0:13:45.040 of pleasure is. So when I you know, when I 0:13:45.080 --> 0:13:47.720 do an ad. I love to write my own ads 0:13:47.760 --> 0:13:53.400 because I'm a frustrated copywriter, um and the best ones 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.440 are the ones where I just bring that sensibility. So 0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:58.760 Malcolm tell us a story about the same Bernard. Oh 0:13:58.800 --> 0:14:01.920 you had the same Bernard. Zippercruiter Red had a had 0:14:01.960 --> 0:14:04.000 a product they wanted to promote, which was a reverse. 0:14:04.080 --> 0:14:06.520 Instead of employers looking for employees, it was going to 0:14:06.600 --> 0:14:10.400 be a potential employees would lose use ciprocruiter to look 0:14:10.440 --> 0:14:14.160 for employers. And so I found this true story about 0:14:14.440 --> 0:14:18.319 a family like in the wilds of Minnesota who had 0:14:18.320 --> 0:14:20.520 a pet Saint Bernard, and the Saint Bernard got lost 0:14:20.640 --> 0:14:22.200 and they had to go out looking for the St. Bernard, 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:25.680 which of course is you know. St. Bernard's historically are 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:27.560 the ones who looked for people lost in the snow, 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:29.960 and they're Saint Bernard got lost in the snow. So 0:14:30.360 --> 0:14:32.760 it was the perfect So the whole thing was about 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:35.640 this Saint Bernard who got lost, and it was it 0:14:35.760 --> 0:14:39.200 was this complicated hilarious, I thought, hilarious, perhaps not in 0:14:39.240 --> 0:14:43.280 real life allegory for what Zippercruiter was trying to do 0:14:43.360 --> 0:14:45.960 with their But then sadly they decided they didn't want 0:14:46.000 --> 0:14:48.280 to promote that, and so this is one of this 0:14:48.360 --> 0:14:51.040 is this loss. This is like one of those you know, 0:14:51.120 --> 0:14:54.560 in Soviet Russia, they would always be these legendary manuscripts 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:56.520 that never saw the lot of day. This is this 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.640 is the legendary laws Zippercruiter at I think you're more 0:14:59.760 --> 0:15:03.280 of a creative director than you know, because every creative 0:15:03.320 --> 0:15:07.160 director experience is that pretty much every day with clients, 0:15:07.520 --> 0:15:11.680 cutting room floor, cutting room floor. I want to do 0:15:11.720 --> 0:15:15.160 if I ever did an AD show, I want to 0:15:15.200 --> 0:15:18.600 I just want to play all those the ones that 0:15:18.680 --> 0:15:20.320 never made it, I think are the fun ones. I 0:15:20.320 --> 0:15:22.160 want to hear all the ones that I just think 0:15:22.160 --> 0:15:25.280 that that would be hilarious. You've talked a lot about 0:15:25.320 --> 0:15:27.520 your voice, and there's been a lot of you know, 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:30.800 folks who have written about your voice as a writer 0:15:31.200 --> 0:15:36.520 as a storyteller. Was there a time when you realize 0:15:36.560 --> 0:15:39.920 you had galvanized your own voice and that perspective. Was 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:43.640 there like a specific moment that you realized or was 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.800 it over time? I mean the first time I ever 0:15:48.520 --> 0:15:51.160 it was starting the podcast. It was you know, uh, 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:56.360 doing the podcast was the first time when I really 0:15:56.400 --> 0:16:00.000 had to use my voice, right, like literally, yes, literally 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.200 use my voice. And so, and I realized I have 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:07.560 a different spoken sensibility, slightly difference so than written sensibility. 0:16:07.800 --> 0:16:11.280 At least my running tends to be a lot more straightforward. 0:16:11.440 --> 0:16:17.200 There's still some playfulness there, but it's not as in person. 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.000 In speech, I'm more playful than I am in writing. 0:16:20.120 --> 0:16:25.200 And so it was not until I formally was required 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:27.600 to use my voice and tell stories this way that 0:16:28.080 --> 0:16:31.600 I began to realize, oh, you know, this is actually 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:35.520 assided myself that I really like and think is fun 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:38.600 and that people will respond to. What's it done for 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:41.440 your storytelling? I mean, you've talked about this a bit, 0:16:41.560 --> 0:16:47.240 but if you feel like more expressive in audio in voice, 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:50.840 has it changed the way you tell the stories? The 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:53.680 thing about podcast is you don't have to you can 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:56.600 meander a little bit in a way you can in print. 0:16:56.600 --> 0:16:59.200 And it's that's really that's that suits me because I 0:16:59.200 --> 0:17:05.280 am a man and I there's tons of asides that 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.080 I want to go on, Like in one of the 0:17:08.160 --> 0:17:11.600 podcasts episodes is coming up in season five with this 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:13.800 little moment, I'm talking about his painting, and this is 0:17:13.840 --> 0:17:17.040 a particular van go that, in its long history, was 0:17:17.080 --> 0:17:20.240 once owned by the heiress to the Kmart fortune who 0:17:20.280 --> 0:17:23.320 lived in Detroit. And what's hilarious about her life is 0:17:23.359 --> 0:17:26.119 that she was briefly for a year married to a 0:17:26.240 --> 0:17:31.040 Swedish baron and she convinces him to move from London 0:17:31.200 --> 0:17:34.639 to Detroit, and the marriage lasts six months and he's 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:36.879 out of there. Of course, it's Detroit in the fifties. 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:41.120 What Swedish baron from London is gonna want, it's gonna 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:44.480 survive and move to Detroit. So it's like that kind 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:46.840 of thing. If you're writing about it, do you put 0:17:46.840 --> 0:17:49.840 that in? Sort of hard because it's that story, That 0:17:49.880 --> 0:17:53.679 little digression requires a certain tone of voice, right, But 0:17:53.760 --> 0:17:55.680 in a podcast, of course you put it in because 0:17:55.680 --> 0:17:58.520 it's hilarious. So it's like, it's just there's so much 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.760 more playfulness inherently in and that's the thing about the 0:18:02.800 --> 0:18:06.440 ads to the ads are just it's just so much fun. 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:08.879 It's just there's so much you can do if you 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.399 put your mind to it in that space when you 0:18:11.520 --> 0:18:14.399 when you incorporate ads into a podcast. I was blown 0:18:14.440 --> 0:18:18.680 away by the subtle yet impactful insight you shared at 0:18:18.680 --> 0:18:21.119 a dinner not that long ago, Malcolm, when you talked 0:18:21.200 --> 0:18:25.160 audio book sales surpassing print. I got stuck on it 0:18:25.560 --> 0:18:28.280 and I'm still stuck on it because I think there's 0:18:28.280 --> 0:18:31.120 something that's so true how you can develop a relationship 0:18:31.240 --> 0:18:34.600 through spoken word versus written but also just a sign 0:18:34.640 --> 0:18:37.800 of the times and how people are choosing to consume content, 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:39.840 and so much that I believe you're going to be 0:18:39.880 --> 0:18:42.840 the first author to hit a million audiobook sales. Is 0:18:42.880 --> 0:18:44.879 that accurate? I don't know what in the first I 0:18:44.920 --> 0:18:47.040 don't know how many Michelle Obama is sold, but I 0:18:47.400 --> 0:18:49.760 don't I don't imagine there are a ton of others. Yes, 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:53.080 approaching a million audio book sales and that surpassing print 0:18:53.119 --> 0:18:56.040 for the first time was a sort of thing to 0:18:56.080 --> 0:18:59.120 think about as I'm sure now you're thinking about format 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:01.119 and so much that you share that you don't know 0:19:01.160 --> 0:19:03.679 that you might ever write a book again. So what 0:19:03.840 --> 0:19:05.760 is that signal to you in in terms of the 0:19:05.800 --> 0:19:08.040 way people want to engage and they want to learn 0:19:08.160 --> 0:19:10.720 and interact with hosts and all the other things that 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.480 it might point to. Well, it's I mean, I should 0:19:14.480 --> 0:19:18.560 say that I don't think books are dead. Far from it. 0:19:19.119 --> 0:19:21.679 This is first of all an indication of just my 0:19:22.359 --> 0:19:26.240 shifting interests that I like this way of storytelling. I 0:19:26.320 --> 0:19:30.080 like working with groups. It's much more of a team 0:19:30.119 --> 0:19:33.680 exercise to do something in audio. I like how emotional 0:19:34.000 --> 0:19:36.960 audio is. That's what those are the kinds of stories 0:19:37.000 --> 0:19:41.240 I want to tell these days. I like how you 0:19:41.280 --> 0:19:45.120 know they will come on point when brands like Pushkin 0:19:45.680 --> 0:19:49.840 will clearly we're going to be selling our audiobooks directly 0:19:50.240 --> 0:19:52.600 at some point, there'll be no intermediary. I love that 0:19:53.000 --> 0:19:56.760 the book business has, for obvious reasons, has all kinds 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:00.359 of intermediary steps. You need printers and distribute tars and 0:20:00.400 --> 0:20:03.280 trucks and bookstores and you know, on and on and 0:20:03.320 --> 0:20:06.560 on and on. I love the idea of finishing something 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:08.919 on a Monday and sending it out to my audience 0:20:08.920 --> 0:20:11.800 on a Tuesday. That's kind of great. And boy am 0:20:11.800 --> 0:20:15.639 I grateful in the middle of this pandemic that my 0:20:15.680 --> 0:20:19.080 audiobook is more popular than my physical book because people 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:20.879 aren't going to bookstores right now, you know, they can 0:20:20.880 --> 0:20:23.639 sload it online. But you know, there's something there's just 0:20:23.720 --> 0:20:27.600 something really powerful about the immediacy of this particular experience 0:20:28.200 --> 0:20:30.440 and that appeals to me a lot at the moment 0:20:30.480 --> 0:20:32.879 as a storyteller. At the end, I believe it was 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:36.159 season one of Revisionist History. Alex and I went to 0:20:36.240 --> 0:20:40.520 see you do a live reading at the Apple Store 0:20:40.640 --> 0:20:43.679 in soho Um and I just remember the two of 0:20:43.720 --> 0:20:46.840 us sitting at the back watching. It was like being 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:50.000 at a at a concert standing room only, and you know, 0:20:50.160 --> 0:20:54.040 everyone was leaning forward and couldn't wait to ask questions 0:20:54.080 --> 0:20:56.879 At the end, how do you think about sort of 0:20:56.880 --> 0:21:00.359 that two way relationship that podcasting might allow you to have. 0:21:00.640 --> 0:21:02.840 Is it any different than when you would be doing 0:21:02.920 --> 0:21:05.640 the book tour? Do you find more in between moments 0:21:05.720 --> 0:21:08.800 to engage during a season and especially during the time 0:21:08.840 --> 0:21:12.200 of COVID, How how are you engaging with your audience 0:21:12.280 --> 0:21:15.600 or and how do you imagine you were moving forward? Well, 0:21:15.640 --> 0:21:19.240 it's a much more intimate relationship with the audience um 0:21:19.320 --> 0:21:21.439 the minute they can hear your voice. So if you 0:21:21.480 --> 0:21:25.600 think about this to backtrack fro a moment um, the 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.560 people who have the most intimate relationship with their audiences 0:21:29.080 --> 0:21:34.800 are people who are on television, so actors sometimes, although 0:21:34.840 --> 0:21:37.760 the actor thing is weird because the person is often 0:21:37.840 --> 0:21:40.800 relating to the actor, to a character and not when 0:21:40.840 --> 0:21:43.400 I think, you know, when I meet Jennifer Anderson, I'm 0:21:43.440 --> 0:21:46.760 not thinking about Jennifer Andison. I'm thinking about our character 0:21:46.800 --> 0:21:49.959 and friends. Right, So there's a real intimacy when you 0:21:51.200 --> 0:21:56.760 hear someone in a in a consistent context um and 0:21:56.800 --> 0:21:59.600 they become a part of your the kind of the 0:21:59.640 --> 0:22:03.800 furnace sure of your life. You it's not a it 0:22:04.000 --> 0:22:06.800 becomes there's a there's a you know you almost This 0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:09.679 is we know that weird thing where if you if 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:12.919 you were to run into someone like that, you're not 0:22:12.960 --> 0:22:15.160 sure whether to call them by their first or last name, 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.960 because they seem like they're now with an author, you 0:22:20.000 --> 0:22:22.399 don't have that if you're writing a book, people don't 0:22:22.720 --> 0:22:26.080 think of you as a friend. They don't feel like 0:22:26.119 --> 0:22:29.280 they know you. They you know, there's you're sort of abstract. 0:22:29.560 --> 0:22:32.840 Podcasting is much closer to the first model. And so 0:22:32.960 --> 0:22:35.560 you know, you people who come up to me now 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.879 because of my podcasts, they're approaching me not as a 0:22:39.920 --> 0:22:47.840 celebrity but as a friend. That's a really interesting that's different. Um, 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:50.280 it's no, you never hear Mr glaud bow which I 0:22:50.280 --> 0:22:54.000 would hear in the book Days it's Mr Gladbow O, 0:22:54.000 --> 0:22:58.280 could you sign my book? Now? It's like Malcolm, it's 0:22:58.320 --> 0:23:01.000 like and the way they approach she was totally different. 0:23:01.000 --> 0:23:03.720 It's like the distance is gone. It's like not in 0:23:03.760 --> 0:23:06.680 a not just way, it's actually lovely. It's like there's 0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:09.560