Speaker 1: What's up. I'm Laura and I'm Alexa Kristen. Welcome back
Speaker 1: at Landia. It's been too long. We have missed you
Speaker 1: so much. It's been more than a year. Alexa. The
Speaker 1: last time we were on the mic was early March.
Speaker 1: Last time we had mics in front of our faces.
Speaker 1: We're in Brooklyn with Panoply, and now we are over
Speaker 1: at I Heart Radio with our friends, our new producer Ryan.
Speaker 1: He's amazing, he's in the fam. It's just great to
Speaker 1: be back, you know. Over the last year, of course,
Speaker 1: Laura and I talk all the time, talk about what's
Speaker 1: happening in the industry, talk about what's happening in business,
Speaker 1: talk about what's happening in the world. And I think
Speaker 1: we felt like it was really important to come back.
Speaker 1: And you know, now more than ever, bring the outside in.
Speaker 1: And I think what's really important is this mindset in
Speaker 1: the way that we kind of push to pull, right,
Speaker 1: we pushed to pull from the outside. I love them.
Speaker 1: So we're gonna push at Landia to pull in new voices,
Speaker 1: new faces, new thoughts. Speaking of new friends, um little
Speaker 1: sneak peek. Lisa Sherman from the Ad Council is going
Speaker 1: to be on the show later in the season. UM.
Speaker 1: When we were on the show and recording with Lisa,
Speaker 1: we had a great idea kind of off mike with
Speaker 1: her to do something to really highlight what the industry
Speaker 1: can be doing kind of constantly, to be thinking about
Speaker 1: um purpose, giving back, nonprofit. And so we created kind
Speaker 1: of this special segment that we're going to be featuring
Speaker 1: on the show called good Landia. And we'll be talking
Speaker 1: a little bit later in the show about the good
Speaker 1: Landia segment. UM for the month of October, we will
Speaker 1: be focused on getting out the vote. We're also going
Speaker 1: to be chatting later in the season with Ian Schaefer,
Speaker 1: co founder and CEO of Kindred, talking about the intersection
Speaker 1: of purpose and profit. And we have a big partnership
Speaker 1: that we're announcing that brings you more of at Landia
Speaker 1: off the mic um available every day. You can go
Speaker 1: and register now to our new digital zine with our
Speaker 1: partners at new Stand at www dot new stand dot
Speaker 1: com backslash new Landia. So new Landia is going to
Speaker 1: be a curation of content from contributors around the industry.
Speaker 1: Go check that out. Register It is free to join.
Speaker 1: So excited about it. And maybe there'll be some merch drops.
Speaker 1: Maybe I think we're all in on the merch drops done,
Speaker 1: and we'd like to take a minute to thank our
Speaker 1: partners over at Yield Move for helping us bring back
Speaker 1: the show. We'll be chatting with the old Move over
Speaker 1: the course of the next few episodes, talking about making
Speaker 1: attention actionable, something Alexa and I have talked about at
Speaker 1: length on the show, so we're excited to dig back
Speaker 1: in with them in a four part mini series coming
Speaker 1: too soon, thanks again to our launch partner, You'll know
Speaker 1: yourm But that said, we have a big interview to
Speaker 1: get to. We have a really special first episode and
Speaker 1: we were really excited about it. Malcolm Gladwell. It was
Speaker 1: an amazing conversation and I think you know what was
Speaker 1: really for me. There are a couple of great points
Speaker 1: of clarity when he starts to talk about and you
Speaker 1: guys will hear it when he starts to talk about
Speaker 1: storytelling in such a simple way with no pretense. For me,
Speaker 1: I've got to underscore the no pretense because I feel
Speaker 1: like right now, you know, as marketers, as advertisers, we
Speaker 1: need to do the best work and just be focused
Speaker 1: on the best work with no pretense, none of the
Speaker 1: pomp and circumstance, because that a lot of that's been
Speaker 1: stripped away. I couldn't agree more. I think is a
Speaker 1: real important reminder for brand marketers who are writing briefs
Speaker 1: and sitting in the rooms making decisions about what narratives
Speaker 1: get put out into the world. So I'm excited for
Speaker 1: everyone to hear this amazing first interview with Malcolm Gladwell.
Speaker 1: Welcome back at Lantia. We are so excited to welcome
Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, New York Times best selling author of books
Speaker 1: including The Tipping Point, Blank Outliers, David and Goliath, and Moore,
Speaker 1: including most recently Talking to Strangers. Go pick that up.
Speaker 1: It's available now. Writer for The New Yorker, recognized as
Speaker 1: one of Times one hundred most Influential People, podcast hosts
Speaker 1: of revisionist History and one of my personal favorites Broken Record,
Speaker 1: and also co founder of Pushkin Industries. Malcolm, Welcome to Atlantia.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Malcolm. We, you know,
Speaker 1: are huge fans of revisionist history and we love that.
Speaker 1: You know, revisionist history is about the kind of story
Speaker 1: that was not told or the true behind a person
Speaker 1: that wasn't recognized, and you're amazing kind of pulling these
Speaker 1: stories and these characters out of history and retelling a story.
Speaker 1: What's the most unlikely kind of storyteller that you admire
Speaker 1: most in the pastor present? Unlikely? Who's the unrecognized storyteller
Speaker 1: that you point to in your head. That's a really
Speaker 1: good idea good question. Well, I suppose in your definition
Speaker 1: of unlikely. I read a lot of thrillers, spy stories,
Speaker 1: those kinds of things, and I tend to think that
Speaker 1: if you want to learn how to tell a story,
Speaker 1: that's the way, that's where to look. And so, you know,
Speaker 1: I've read every Jack Reacher novel. I have read every
Speaker 1: Stephen Hunter novel. I have read every John Lacarey novel.
Speaker 1: When I was a kid, I read every Christie novel.
Speaker 1: When I was even younger, I read every I think
Speaker 1: I read every Hardy Boys book. You know. I I've
Speaker 1: always thought that that the principles of good storytelling our
Speaker 1: universal and people in the world of fiction are probably
Speaker 1: a step ahead of those of us in the world
Speaker 1: of nonfiction, and that's what we ought to you know,
Speaker 1: there's just questions about a lot of it is about pacing.
Speaker 1: You know, storytelling is fundamentally I think a question of pacing,
Speaker 1: that things have to come at the right moment um,
Speaker 1: and you if you rush it, it doesn't work, and
Speaker 1: if you are too slow, it doesn't work. And that's
Speaker 1: what not That's what novelists think about endlessly, and I
Speaker 1: don't know whether we in the nonfiction world pay enough
Speaker 1: attention to that particular problem. Can we go a step
Speaker 1: further and talk about storytelling in the advertising world. I
Speaker 1: know a fun fact, Malcolm, that I learned about you
Speaker 1: recently is that, um, you wanted to start out of
Speaker 1: school a career in advertising, and so there must have
Speaker 1: been and something about storytelling through the lens of advertising
Speaker 1: and marketing that intrigued you. How would you take what
Speaker 1: you just shared and apply that a step further to
Speaker 1: storytelling as it applies to brands. Well, the reason I
Speaker 1: was obsessed and I remained obsessed with advertising, and I
Speaker 1: did you quite right. Coming out of college, what I
Speaker 1: really wanted to do was go and work for an
Speaker 1: ad agency. I applied to I think sixteen agencies and
Speaker 1: got sixteen rejections. So that's why I went into journalism,
Speaker 1: Because I couldn't get a job with my first love.
Speaker 1: But what I admired was the economy of advertising. The
Speaker 1: idea that you can tell a story in a thirty
Speaker 1: second television commercial is to me so fantastic and unbelievable,
Speaker 1: and my I've often I always think people who do
Speaker 1: those ads are the the greatest of all storytellers. You
Speaker 1: know that famous line of Mark Twain's I wrote you
Speaker 1: a long letter because I didn't have time to write
Speaker 1: you a short one, and his point being it's harder
Speaker 1: to tell a story briefly then at length, is so true.
Speaker 1: And the idea that there are television commercials that for
Speaker 1: thirty seconds long, where you you feel like you have
Speaker 1: entered into someone's experience and you feel like a story
Speaker 1: has been told from beginning to end in thirty seconds,
Speaker 1: it's just unbelievable to me. I mean, I don't think
Speaker 1: I could do it, which is why I'm in such
Speaker 1: of it. From time to time, I call up if
Speaker 1: I see an that I really love. On more than
Speaker 1: one occasion, I have tracked down the person responsible for
Speaker 1: it just to talk to them. Can you tell us
Speaker 1: about a time when you did that? Yeah, there was
Speaker 1: one very memorable one, there was a Heineken ad where
Speaker 1: there were a bunch of people, young people in the
Speaker 1: back of a taxi cab and the taxi driver, who's
Speaker 1: this crusty old guy is is playing up. I think
Speaker 1: it's a bell deev Devot song. They all start singing along.
Speaker 1: It's this lovely moment because it's I think it's a
Speaker 1: guy and two girls and they're clearly coming home from
Speaker 1: that out of the town and they're just a little
Speaker 1: bit tipsy, and they start singing along to that song.
Speaker 1: And then the taxi driver joins in and he's like
Speaker 1: a seventy year old, angry looking guy, and it's just
Speaker 1: so lovely, Like everything about it is perfect. And I
Speaker 1: call it the guy I was gonna do something. I
Speaker 1: never ended up writing about it, but I just wanted
Speaker 1: to talk to the guy who did it, just just
Speaker 1: say like, I'm sorry, that's genius, Like everything about it.
Speaker 1: I just had him tell me how that aad came
Speaker 1: about and how it was filmed, and I feel like
Speaker 1: we started a new show where I think we just
Speaker 1: started a new show. Malcolm can critique ads and or
Speaker 1: find out the origin story of them if anybody's interested
Speaker 1: in making that show called pushkin there's a Google Chrome
Speaker 1: ad too that I never did I talk to the
Speaker 1: guy who did it, or did I talk to someone
Speaker 1: who knew the guy did it. I once on um
Speaker 1: abbot Kinney in Venice ran into somebody who said hello.
Speaker 1: It turns out he worked for an emergency and we
Speaker 1: started talking king about our favorite ads, and I started
Speaker 1: talking about that Google Chrome ad where the father. If
Speaker 1: you're not crying fifteen seconds into this one, you have
Speaker 1: no heart. It's unbelieval. It's the she's gone to college
Speaker 1: and she's emailing with her dad and there you don't
Speaker 1: realize until halfway in that that her dad is all
Speaker 1: she has left. Mom has just died. And there they're
Speaker 1: they're wondering about how they they're missing the mom and wondering.
Speaker 1: And as the dad is typing about the mother and
Speaker 1: telling you the mother's dad, he all you see is
Speaker 1: his key strokes, and his key strokes slowed down, and
Speaker 1: it's just like at that moment, it's just it is
Speaker 1: gut wrenching. Do you cry, ads? Do you correct? Oh?
Speaker 1: My god, yeah, I totally cry. Why, I mean, of
Speaker 1: course that's I cry. You remember the legendary Hallmark ads. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I was in tears. So the power of
Speaker 1: storytelling is obviously something that you've created, but it also
Speaker 1: clearly reason rates with you. One of the things that
Speaker 1: we are curious to talk about is as you're such
Speaker 1: a successful podcast host who has a massed an audience.
Speaker 1: I think you're something at three million downloads per episode
Speaker 1: of Revisionist History, you know, thinking Malcolm about what it
Speaker 1: takes to create or build an audience of that size,
Speaker 1: but then also integrate brands into the conversation in such
Speaker 1: a way where you don't skip a beat and that
Speaker 1: your audience is looking for the ads and or connects,
Speaker 1: you know, sort of the message. Perhaps, How do you
Speaker 1: think about integrating ads? I know you had some that
Speaker 1: you've wanted to make over the years that never came
Speaker 1: to fruition, one of which you shared around zip Recruiter
Speaker 1: and and the st Bernard. Can you talk to our
Speaker 1: audience about how they should think about engaging with you
Speaker 1: as a podcast host and more importantly, connecting with your
Speaker 1: audience in a meaningful way. Yeah, well, my I think
Speaker 1: of my audience as as having a shared sensibility, not
Speaker 1: a shared demographic, and so I sort of know I
Speaker 1: have an intuitive sense about why they're listening and why
Speaker 1: they're reading my book, which is they I think they
Speaker 1: share the same kind of curiosity I have and the
Speaker 1: same sense of mischief. I don't take things that seriously,
Speaker 1: I mean every now and again, But I'm also I
Speaker 1: don't take myself, you know, insane these here. I mean,
Speaker 1: there's a kind of I don't know. There's a certain
Speaker 1: there's a certain personality to revisionist history that um and
Speaker 1: I think that the people who listen are people who
Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with me, with people who just have
Speaker 1: that and appreciation for that personality. It's really my dad's personality.
Speaker 1: My father was someone who took like three things really seriously, mathematics, gardening,
Speaker 1: and the Bible and nothing else. Everything else was up
Speaker 1: for grabs. He could be convinced, he could joke about it,
Speaker 1: he could make fun of himself. I mean, outside of
Speaker 1: those three realms, it just was Everything for him was
Speaker 1: a speculative exercise in in enjoyment and curiosity. And and
Speaker 1: I sort of in the same way, have a couple
Speaker 1: of things that I'm passionate about, but the rest and
Speaker 1: I think people listen will share that, And so we're
Speaker 1: interested in. I think of ideas as things that are
Speaker 1: not just informative and interesting, but fun. I think it
Speaker 1: should be as fun to explore an idea as it
Speaker 1: is to watch a movie or listen to an incredible song,
Speaker 1: or go for an amazing walk, or whatever your choice
Speaker 1: of pleasure is. So when I you know, when I
Speaker 1: do an ad. I love to write my own ads
Speaker 1: because I'm a frustrated copywriter, um and the best ones
Speaker 1: are the ones where I just bring that sensibility. So
Speaker 1: Malcolm tell us a story about the same Bernard. Oh
Speaker 1: you had the same Bernard. Zippercruiter Red had a had
Speaker 1: a product they wanted to promote, which was a reverse.
Speaker 1: Instead of employers looking for employees, it was going to
Speaker 1: be a potential employees would lose use ciprocruiter to look
Speaker 1: for employers. And so I found this true story about
Speaker 1: a family like in the wilds of Minnesota who had
Speaker 1: a pet Saint Bernard, and the Saint Bernard got lost
Speaker 1: and they had to go out looking for the St. Bernard,
Speaker 1: which of course is you know. St. Bernard's historically are
Speaker 1: the ones who looked for people lost in the snow,
Speaker 1: and they're Saint Bernard got lost in the snow. So
Speaker 1: it was the perfect So the whole thing was about
Speaker 1: this Saint Bernard who got lost, and it was it
Speaker 1: was this complicated hilarious, I thought, hilarious, perhaps not in
Speaker 1: real life allegory for what Zippercruiter was trying to do
Speaker 1: with their But then sadly they decided they didn't want
Speaker 1: to promote that, and so this is one of this
Speaker 1: is this loss. This is like one of those you know,
Speaker 1: in Soviet Russia, they would always be these legendary manuscripts
Speaker 1: that never saw the lot of day. This is this
Speaker 1: is the legendary laws Zippercruiter at I think you're more
Speaker 1: of a creative director than you know, because every creative
Speaker 1: director experience is that pretty much every day with clients,
Speaker 1: cutting room floor, cutting room floor. I want to do
Speaker 1: if I ever did an AD show, I want to
Speaker 1: I just want to play all those the ones that
Speaker 1: never made it, I think are the fun ones. I
Speaker 1: want to hear all the ones that I just think
Speaker 1: that that would be hilarious. You've talked a lot about
Speaker 1: your voice, and there's been a lot of you know,
Speaker 1: folks who have written about your voice as a writer
Speaker 1: as a storyteller. Was there a time when you realize
Speaker 1: you had galvanized your own voice and that perspective. Was
Speaker 1: there like a specific moment that you realized or was
Speaker 1: it over time? I mean the first time I ever
Speaker 1: it was starting the podcast. It was you know, uh,
Speaker 1: doing the podcast was the first time when I really
Speaker 1: had to use my voice, right, like literally, yes, literally
Speaker 1: use my voice. And so, and I realized I have
Speaker 1: a different spoken sensibility, slightly difference so than written sensibility.
Speaker 1: At least my running tends to be a lot more straightforward.
Speaker 1: There's still some playfulness there, but it's not as in person.
Speaker 1: In speech, I'm more playful than I am in writing.
Speaker 1: And so it was not until I formally was required
Speaker 1: to use my voice and tell stories this way that
Speaker 1: I began to realize, oh, you know, this is actually
Speaker 1: assided myself that I really like and think is fun
Speaker 1: and that people will respond to. What's it done for
Speaker 1: your storytelling? I mean, you've talked about this a bit,
Speaker 1: but if you feel like more expressive in audio in voice,
Speaker 1: has it changed the way you tell the stories? The
Speaker 1: thing about podcast is you don't have to you can
Speaker 1: meander a little bit in a way you can in print.
Speaker 1: And it's that's really that's that suits me because I
Speaker 1: am a man and I there's tons of asides that
Speaker 1: I want to go on, Like in one of the
Speaker 1: podcasts episodes is coming up in season five with this
Speaker 1: little moment, I'm talking about his painting, and this is
Speaker 1: a particular van go that, in its long history, was
Speaker 1: once owned by the heiress to the Kmart fortune who
Speaker 1: lived in Detroit. And what's hilarious about her life is
Speaker 1: that she was briefly for a year married to a
Speaker 1: Swedish baron and she convinces him to move from London
Speaker 1: to Detroit, and the marriage lasts six months and he's
Speaker 1: out of there. Of course, it's Detroit in the fifties.
Speaker 1: What Swedish baron from London is gonna want, it's gonna
Speaker 1: survive and move to Detroit. So it's like that kind
Speaker 1: of thing. If you're writing about it, do you put
Speaker 1: that in? Sort of hard because it's that story, That
Speaker 1: little digression requires a certain tone of voice, right, But
Speaker 1: in a podcast, of course you put it in because
Speaker 1: it's hilarious. So it's like, it's just there's so much
Speaker 1: more playfulness inherently in and that's the thing about the
Speaker 1: ads to the ads are just it's just so much fun.
Speaker 1: It's just there's so much you can do if you
Speaker 1: put your mind to it in that space when you
Speaker 1: when you incorporate ads into a podcast. I was blown
Speaker 1: away by the subtle yet impactful insight you shared at
Speaker 1: a dinner not that long ago, Malcolm, when you talked
Speaker 1: audio book sales surpassing print. I got stuck on it
Speaker 1: and I'm still stuck on it because I think there's
Speaker 1: something that's so true how you can develop a relationship
Speaker 1: through spoken word versus written but also just a sign
Speaker 1: of the times and how people are choosing to consume content,
Speaker 1: and so much that I believe you're going to be
Speaker 1: the first author to hit a million audiobook sales. Is
Speaker 1: that accurate? I don't know what in the first I
Speaker 1: don't know how many Michelle Obama is sold, but I
Speaker 1: don't I don't imagine there are a ton of others. Yes,
Speaker 1: approaching a million audio book sales and that surpassing print
Speaker 1: for the first time was a sort of thing to
Speaker 1: think about as I'm sure now you're thinking about format
Speaker 1: and so much that you share that you don't know
Speaker 1: that you might ever write a book again. So what
Speaker 1: is that signal to you in in terms of the
Speaker 1: way people want to engage and they want to learn
Speaker 1: and interact with hosts and all the other things that
Speaker 1: it might point to. Well, it's I mean, I should
Speaker 1: say that I don't think books are dead. Far from it.
Speaker 1: This is first of all an indication of just my
Speaker 1: shifting interests that I like this way of storytelling. I
Speaker 1: like working with groups. It's much more of a team
Speaker 1: exercise to do something in audio. I like how emotional
Speaker 1: audio is. That's what those are the kinds of stories
Speaker 1: I want to tell these days. I like how you
Speaker 1: know they will come on point when brands like Pushkin
Speaker 1: will clearly we're going to be selling our audiobooks directly
Speaker 1: at some point, there'll be no intermediary. I love that
Speaker 1: the book business has, for obvious reasons, has all kinds
Speaker 1: of intermediary steps. You need printers and distribute tars and
Speaker 1: trucks and bookstores and you know, on and on and
Speaker 1: on and on. I love the idea of finishing something
Speaker 1: on a Monday and sending it out to my audience
Speaker 1: on a Tuesday. That's kind of great. And boy am
Speaker 1: I grateful in the middle of this pandemic that my
Speaker 1: audiobook is more popular than my physical book because people
Speaker 1: aren't going to bookstores right now, you know, they can
Speaker 1: sload it online. But you know, there's something there's just
Speaker 1: something really powerful about the immediacy of this particular experience
Speaker 1: and that appeals to me a lot at the moment
Speaker 1: as a storyteller. At the end, I believe it was
Speaker 1: season one of Revisionist History. Alex and I went to
Speaker 1: see you do a live reading at the Apple Store
Speaker 1: in soho Um and I just remember the two of
Speaker 1: us sitting at the back watching. It was like being
Speaker 1: at a at a concert standing room only, and you know,
Speaker 1: everyone was leaning forward and couldn't wait to ask questions
Speaker 1: At the end, how do you think about sort of
Speaker 1: that two way relationship that podcasting might allow you to have.
Speaker 1: Is it any different than when you would be doing
Speaker 1: the book tour? Do you find more in between moments
Speaker 1: to engage during a season and especially during the time
Speaker 1: of COVID, How how are you engaging with your audience
Speaker 1: or and how do you imagine you were moving forward? Well,
Speaker 1: it's a much more intimate relationship with the audience um
Speaker 1: the minute they can hear your voice. So if you
Speaker 1: think about this to backtrack fro a moment um, the
Speaker 1: people who have the most intimate relationship with their audiences
Speaker 1: are people who are on television, so actors sometimes, although
Speaker 1: the actor thing is weird because the person is often
Speaker 1: relating to the actor, to a character and not when
Speaker 1: I think, you know, when I meet Jennifer Anderson, I'm
Speaker 1: not thinking about Jennifer Andison. I'm thinking about our character
Speaker 1: and friends. Right, So there's a real intimacy when you
Speaker 1: hear someone in a in a consistent context um and
Speaker 1: they become a part of your the kind of the
Speaker 1: furnace sure of your life. You it's not a it
Speaker 1: becomes there's a there's a you know you almost This
Speaker 1: is we know that weird thing where if you if
Speaker 1: you were to run into someone like that, you're not
Speaker 1: sure whether to call them by their first or last name,
Speaker 1: because they seem like they're now with an author, you
Speaker 1: don't have that if you're writing a book, people don't
Speaker 1: think of you as a friend. They don't feel like
Speaker 1: they know you. They you know, there's you're sort of abstract.
Speaker 1: Podcasting is much closer to the first model. And so
Speaker 1: you know, you people who come up to me now
Speaker 1: because of my podcasts, they're approaching me not as a
Speaker 1: celebrity but as a friend. That's a really interesting that's different. Um,
Speaker 1: it's no, you never hear Mr glaud bow which I
Speaker 1: would hear in the book Days it's Mr Gladbow O,
Speaker 1: could you sign my book? Now? It's like Malcolm, it's
Speaker 1: like and the way they approach she was totally different.
Speaker 1: It's like the distance is gone. It's like not in
Speaker 1: a not just way, it's actually lovely. It's like there's
Speaker 1: no it's just like a they feel like they've been
Speaker 1: having a conversation with me and they want to continue
Speaker 1: the conversation. And that's powerful stuff. That's amazing, right, That's
Speaker 1: that's the gold standard that you know when you're if
Speaker 1: you're interested in building. I really have a sense now
Speaker 1: that I am actively building an audience. There's a community
Speaker 1: of people out there who are waiting for the next episode.
Speaker 1: And who are you know who just kind of to
Speaker 1: use a sixties expression, who like dig what's big revisions history? Right,
Speaker 1: It's like that's kind of great, like that we were
Speaker 1: doing some research before this and book sales for some
Speaker 1: of your earlier books, like The Tipping Point reached two
Speaker 1: million book sales worldwide. It's interesting to think about each
Speaker 1: episode reaches three million and sort of carrying that audience
Speaker 1: along as you know it you're going into You said
Speaker 1: season five, just how incredible it is to build that
Speaker 1: audience over time. And you've used this phrase in the
Speaker 1: previous conversation of the idea of having loyalty over novelty,
Speaker 1: which I think we're going to put on a T
Speaker 1: shirt because it's we love that. It's something that we
Speaker 1: would talk to brands and media companies about all the time,
Speaker 1: which was stopped going for the kind of lowest common denominator.
Speaker 1: Make it valuable to write, make it valuable to someone.
Speaker 1: In the minute you do that, you start to differentiate yourself.
Speaker 1: I think, especially right now, the world is kind of
Speaker 1: grappling with that, like how do they proceed, especially kind
Speaker 1: of post COVID, what is meaningful? How do we kind
Speaker 1: of proceed to be ourselves? Which is a kind of
Speaker 1: interesting question. I don't know if you have thought, Yeah,
Speaker 1: this loyalty novelty thing has a number of different interesting dimensions, um,
Speaker 1: but one is that loyalty is a conversation and novelty
Speaker 1: is a monologue. WHOA wha did you just hear what
Speaker 1: Malcolm said, Ryan, let's rewind that we got to hear
Speaker 1: it again. Loyalty is a conversation and novelty as a monologue.
Speaker 1: And so and then he applies both to people like
Speaker 1: me and also to brands that if you want loyalty,
Speaker 1: you have to have find a way to to have
Speaker 1: a conversation with those who you are. So to give
Speaker 1: you an example, we we just got them as an advertiser.
Speaker 1: Actually because I'm such so in love with the brand.
Speaker 1: I'm a runner and there's this new sportswear brand called
Speaker 1: track Smith, which is like the cool running brand and
Speaker 1: the stuff is really really I mean I'm wearing I
Speaker 1: wear it like all the time I met the guy
Speaker 1: who found the company. I mean, I'm I'm in the
Speaker 1: tank for this cumpy. I'll be honest, as there are
Speaker 1: a lot of runners, I know. It's just beautiful stuff
Speaker 1: made for runners, by runners, and you. The reason it
Speaker 1: can that brand connects to me is I feel like
Speaker 1: it's a conversation, not a literal conversation, but I feel
Speaker 1: like they're when I look at the way the stuff
Speaker 1: they're putting out changes over time. It's almost as if
Speaker 1: they're like responding to what runners like me want that
Speaker 1: there are you know, it's people like me making stuff
Speaker 1: for people like me. I don't know, So that's that
Speaker 1: strikes me. That's that's loyalty and action, you know. I
Speaker 1: My suspicion is I'll be wearing that brand ten years
Speaker 1: from now. I really do believe that. But if the
Speaker 1: brands were thinking the way you're talking about things and
Speaker 1: giving themselves license to actually grow and not just grow
Speaker 1: the bottom line, but grow the relationship in a meaningful way,
Speaker 1: I think we would see very different, very different work,
Speaker 1: very different products. Steven and Goliath hit me in a
Speaker 1: very different way. And one of the things that you said, um,
Speaker 1: I actually think it's in your promo for Masterclass, was
Speaker 1: why did you lose? Right? Because they've become so big
Speaker 1: and so powerful that they actually lose the ability to see,
Speaker 1: and that Goliath literally and physically lost his ability to see.
Speaker 1: We're in this really interesting era if I take that
Speaker 1: into the media world, in the consumer world, um, where
Speaker 1: the ad dollars are dominated by a couple of players, right,
Speaker 1: and they're sitting on rings of data and analytics about us,
Speaker 1: about our behaviors, about everything right, how we live, where
Speaker 1: we live, all that stuff. But does that really actually
Speaker 1: help them in the long run. There's something that's a
Speaker 1: bigger question here, um that if they want to have
Speaker 1: this discourse, if they want to have that relationship, you know,
Speaker 1: do they get to the place where they're too big
Speaker 1: to see even though they've got all of the information
Speaker 1: to see. What do you think about that? What's the
Speaker 1: future with where all this consolidation is making the goliath?
Speaker 1: I think this a lot with I'm a car nut.
Speaker 1: I spend huge amounts of every day on car websites,
Speaker 1: and the stereotypical obvious example of this is General Motors
Speaker 1: and Generals is an interesting It's interesting in a number
Speaker 1: of ways because as a car fanatic, I am aware
Speaker 1: of the fact, as are all car fonetics, that General
Speaker 1: Motors makes really good cars and has now for the
Speaker 1: last ten fifteen years at least four or five of
Speaker 1: their cars are world class automnbills, which is for a
Speaker 1: car manufacturer, given the constraints they're under with their legacy
Speaker 1: cos with there is really high and I just think,
Speaker 1: how on earth can a company that probably spends what
Speaker 1: to three billion dollars a year on advertising, So that's
Speaker 1: over the last ten years thirty billion dollars in communicating
Speaker 1: with the largely the American public has been unable to
Speaker 1: communicate the fact that they make really good cars. There
Speaker 1: has to be there must be many explanations for that,
Speaker 1: but one is that it's just it must be just
Speaker 1: something about side. I mean, there's something about I mean,
Speaker 1: I look at their advertising. I don't I don't want
Speaker 1: to step on anyone's does, but there's nothing particularly compelling
Speaker 1: about it. It certainly doesn't communicate the idea that they
Speaker 1: make really good cars, um, you know, which is kind
Speaker 1: of shocking, Like, you know, I really obviously example, forgive
Speaker 1: me what I riff on this. You know, the Chevy
Speaker 1: um Bolt previously the volt is A is one of
Speaker 1: the best electric cars in the world and has been
Speaker 1: for I mean, it is a gold standard e V.
Speaker 1: How is it that nobody knows that fact. How is
Speaker 1: it that nobody knows that dollar for dollar, the Corvette
Speaker 1: right now is probably the greatest sports car made in
Speaker 1: the world, or that the Chevy SS is a car
Speaker 1: that every single car nut in America would die to
Speaker 1: own a Chevy s S if they could find one,
Speaker 1: or you know, I could go on like I don't,
Speaker 1: I just don't. Just baffles me totally. Do you think
Speaker 1: it's because we when you look at like an advertising
Speaker 1: brief and I'm curious to think about, like are their
Speaker 1: book briefs? Right? Like when you go and you think
Speaker 1: about telling a story, right and you come up with
Speaker 1: an idea for what that's going to be. Do you
Speaker 1: start with what the objective is and how many books
Speaker 1: you need to sell and what you hope the output
Speaker 1: is on the other side of that narrative, or do
Speaker 1: you go into writing a story or a book or
Speaker 1: or creating an episode of revisionist history because there's a
Speaker 1: conversation you want to have with people connection you're trying
Speaker 1: to make. That's where the disconnect I think between because
Speaker 1: I've heard you say this, Malcolm, and we've said it
Speaker 1: many times on this show. People don't hate ads, they
Speaker 1: hate bad ads, and and does that all begin further
Speaker 1: upstream in the brief or you're more focused on the
Speaker 1: transactional outcome than the relationship with the people who are transacting. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: I think I think you have mean you would know
Speaker 1: way better than me. But um, you're the But I
Speaker 1: think you're right. There's some there is some kind of
Speaker 1: fundamental there's something I don't know what the what the
Speaker 1: institutional processes that is causing this gulf between the audience
Speaker 1: and the product. Um, but you're right, they're not. We
Speaker 1: don't we When I sit down and do an episode,
Speaker 1: I write a book or do an episode of vision History,
Speaker 1: I don't start with my expectations of how many UM
Speaker 1: downloads we're gonna shift, right, It's not even it didn't
Speaker 1: even occur to me. I I just think about what's
Speaker 1: an interesting story to tell, and I have faith that
Speaker 1: if I tell it in a compelling way, people will
Speaker 1: gravitate towards it. Um. I don't even know what the
Speaker 1: downloads are. I mean, I care less. It's not my
Speaker 1: it's not my problem, you know. My problem is to
Speaker 1: tell great stories. Jacob Weisberg, your business partner, want me
Speaker 1: to say three million downloads per episode US? But but
Speaker 1: can we can we stick on that for a second.
Speaker 1: How do you know when you've landed on a book
Speaker 1: ready idea? Mm hmm. If you had tried to figure
Speaker 1: out ahead of time, you never would do it. Um
Speaker 1: and that's those are the hair raising ones, because you know,
Speaker 1: you commit a lot of time and investment in something
Speaker 1: without knowing whether it's going to pan out. And um uh,
Speaker 1: you know I did this. In this upcoming season, we
Speaker 1: have a four part series on this Air Force general
Speaker 1: called Curtis LeMay. It was originally one one episode, then
Speaker 1: it became two, then it became three, then it became four. Um.
Speaker 1: And just because I got into it and realized, oh,
Speaker 1: there's another side to this and oh wait a minute,
Speaker 1: I don't think about this guy the same way now
Speaker 1: that I did a month ago. Um. I was constantly
Speaker 1: updating and revising and adding to my understanding. And that
Speaker 1: turned out Now that's the heart of the of the
Speaker 1: of the of the of the season. That was not
Speaker 1: something I could have in January A. I would have
Speaker 1: said something completely different. Um. And that's that's curiosity, just
Speaker 1: being an agnostic to where the story takes you. So, Malcolm,
Speaker 1: what is your kill? By d I Y? What would
Speaker 1: you kill in the world? What would you purchase a chore?
Speaker 1: And what would you do yourself? Anything? Anything? Anything? Anything?
Speaker 1: So what would I would you get rid of if
Speaker 1: you could strike from existing on the earth? What would
Speaker 1: it be, Oh god, so many things. Um, golf I
Speaker 1: get rid of, so that all golf courses could be
Speaker 1: converted to running. Um, of course they're perfect for running.
Speaker 1: Um think that's what. Okay, I'll kill golf. What's the
Speaker 1: next one? Which what would I acquire by? What would
Speaker 1: you buy? What I would buy would be, um, probably
Speaker 1: a car of some kind. Um, I think I would buy.
Speaker 1: I would love to own a I mean you mean anything,
Speaker 1: anything unlimited. Oh, then I would buy a BMW Z eight,
Speaker 1: which is a no longer hasn't been you know, the
Speaker 1: last one was made I think in probably two thousand seven,
Speaker 1: one of the world's most gorgeous sports cars. Um, they're new,
Speaker 1: like they're a hundred and fifty grand, so a little
Speaker 1: rich to my taste at the moment. But um, if
Speaker 1: this game is writing me is giving me a blank
Speaker 1: check getting getting Z eight And then the last one
Speaker 1: is yourself. Yeah, so what would you create? Make nothing
Speaker 1: you've done before? Well, I'd like to. I can't do it,
Speaker 1: but if I were not a journalist, I would Another
Speaker 1: one of the things I would have always loved to
Speaker 1: be with was a developer. I would like to build
Speaker 1: something like a house My brother is a very handy.
Speaker 1: If my d I I would be I would ship
Speaker 1: my brother down to where I am and we would
Speaker 1: build the loveliest little, you know, small gorgeous cottage um
Speaker 1: which would serve as at whatever office, guest room, recording studio, whatever,
Speaker 1: recording studio, whatever. But that's what I would I would
Speaker 1: build something really small and really beautiful, tucked into the woods. Malcolm,
Speaker 1: Thank you. This was amazing fun. Yes, so much. You're
Speaker 1: welcome back anytime. If people want to get in touch
Speaker 1: with you to do host reads, how can they get
Speaker 1: in touch with you? They should get in touch with
Speaker 1: head a Faint. Go to the pushkin dot fm website
Speaker 1: and email our director of marketing, head a Faint and
Speaker 1: she will line it all up. Malcolm, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for joining us. Thank guys, Bye bye. What a
Speaker 1: first episode? Did we just drop the mic? Here? Was
Speaker 1: that the whole season? In one take? I'm joining Malcolm
Speaker 1: Glad while Agency r Us and we just talked about
Speaker 1: that mic drop in the middle of the conversation. That
Speaker 1: is definitely going on some merch. Yeah, it's definitely going
Speaker 1: on some merch. Loyalty is a conversation. Novelty is a monologue.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably one of the things that the
Speaker 1: industry needs to think about the most. When we're chasing
Speaker 1: right the cheap and chasing something that's cute and chasing
Speaker 1: something that's just an eyeball. Everyone wants to have this
Speaker 1: deep relationship with their customer. Everyone wants to actually make
Speaker 1: their brand means something. No one wants to have a
Speaker 1: brand that is fair weather, that is shallow. Everyone wants
Speaker 1: to build something, So we actually have to go build it.
Speaker 1: We actually have to go put the energy into it. Well,
Speaker 1: when you think about starting with the outcomes before we
Speaker 1: even get to the thing we're talking about, we already
Speaker 1: know what we wanted to do, before we even have
Speaker 1: an idea. Yeah, I love he actually talks about this.
Speaker 1: He said, I don't know what is happening in the
Speaker 1: industry or in the institutional process that there's a golf
Speaker 1: between the audience and the product and we're actually creating
Speaker 1: it because that golf actually doesn't exist. So when we're
Speaker 1: in our process of briefing to your point, we're actually
Speaker 1: going for the KPI and the outcome and that instead
Speaker 1: of the relationship, right, and and by that you've already
Speaker 1: failed the reality of what he said is like, I
Speaker 1: don't think about three million plus downloads per episode before
Speaker 1: I think about the idea. I'm not even thinking about
Speaker 1: it at all. A great idea, a great story will deliver.
Speaker 1: But it's the truth because at the end of the day,
Speaker 1: making good and being able to discern what good is,
Speaker 1: that's kind of all it's about. And speaking of good,
Speaker 1: I think it's time for good Landia. Good landy uh So,
Speaker 1: in our first ever good Landia, we wanted to partner
Speaker 1: with the AD Council. It's really highlight and support initiatives
Speaker 1: that are moving our industry and society forward. So for
Speaker 1: this month of October, we're gonna be totally focused on voting.
Speaker 1: Make sure you have a plan to vote. So, speaking
Speaker 1: of having a plan, the AD Council developed a campaign
Speaker 1: in partnership with Viacom CBS called Vote for Your Life.
Speaker 1: It makes it easy for potential voters to register to
Speaker 1: vote and make a plan to vote early. If you
Speaker 1: want to vote by mail or if you prefer to
Speaker 1: drop your ballot off in person at a local dropbox
Speaker 1: or county election office, time is running out. The election
Speaker 1: is just weeks away November three, so request a ballot
Speaker 1: in time to be counted. Don't wait, go to vote
Speaker 1: for your life dot com and make sure you vote.
Speaker 1: This is a message from good Landia. So what an episode,
Speaker 1: first episode, so many new people to thank at I
Speaker 1: heart first and foremost want to thank our producer new
Speaker 1: on the Mike with us, Ryan Marts. Thank you so much. Ryan.
Speaker 1: Why don't you give them a little hello with that
Speaker 1: velvety voice, Little Hello, little perfect Bryan Martz on the Mike,
Speaker 1: Laura hit it with the list of all of our
Speaker 1: friends and family I heart who have been so good
Speaker 1: to us and helped us get back on air. Big
Speaker 1: thank you to Bob Conal, Carter, Andy, Eric Gayle Val,
Speaker 1: Michael Jen We appreciate you. Thank you so much for
Speaker 1: this opportunity. And speaking of family, to the at Landia family.
Speaker 1: We are so happy to be back. Thank you for
Speaker 1: all the love, all the messages, all the when are
Speaker 1: you coming back? We are back, So tell your friends,
Speaker 1: tell your family. We'll see you in two weeks.