1 00:00:10,880 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: What's up. I'm Laura and I'm Alexa Kristen. Welcome back 2 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: at Landia. It's been too long. We have missed you 3 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:22,759 Speaker 1: so much. It's been more than a year. Alexa. The 4 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:25,279 Speaker 1: last time we were on the mic was early March. 5 00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:28,400 Speaker 1: Last time we had mics in front of our faces. 6 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:32,120 Speaker 1: We're in Brooklyn with Panoply, and now we are over 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,880 Speaker 1: at I Heart Radio with our friends, our new producer Ryan. 8 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: He's amazing, he's in the fam. It's just great to 9 00:00:40,159 --> 00:00:43,080 Speaker 1: be back, you know. Over the last year, of course, 10 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: Laura and I talk all the time, talk about what's 11 00:00:46,440 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: happening in the industry, talk about what's happening in business, 12 00:00:49,280 --> 00:00:52,560 Speaker 1: talk about what's happening in the world. And I think 13 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 1: we felt like it was really important to come back. 14 00:00:56,480 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: And you know, now more than ever, bring the outside in. 15 00:01:00,440 --> 00:01:04,720 Speaker 1: And I think what's really important is this mindset in 16 00:01:04,959 --> 00:01:09,200 Speaker 1: the way that we kind of push to pull, right, 17 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: we pushed to pull from the outside. I love them. 18 00:01:12,480 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: So we're gonna push at Landia to pull in new voices, 19 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: new faces, new thoughts. Speaking of new friends, um little 20 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,680 Speaker 1: sneak peek. Lisa Sherman from the Ad Council is going 21 00:01:25,680 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 1: to be on the show later in the season. UM. 22 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,440 Speaker 1: When we were on the show and recording with Lisa, 23 00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 1: we had a great idea kind of off mike with 24 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: her to do something to really highlight what the industry 25 00:01:39,160 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: can be doing kind of constantly, to be thinking about 26 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: um purpose, giving back, nonprofit. And so we created kind 27 00:01:47,960 --> 00:01:50,160 Speaker 1: of this special segment that we're going to be featuring 28 00:01:50,200 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 1: on the show called good Landia. And we'll be talking 29 00:01:53,560 --> 00:01:55,320 Speaker 1: a little bit later in the show about the good 30 00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:57,880 Speaker 1: Landia segment. UM for the month of October, we will 31 00:01:57,920 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 1: be focused on getting out the vote. We're also going 32 00:02:00,840 --> 00:02:03,600 Speaker 1: to be chatting later in the season with Ian Schaefer, 33 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: co founder and CEO of Kindred, talking about the intersection 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 1: of purpose and profit. And we have a big partnership 35 00:02:10,280 --> 00:02:13,040 Speaker 1: that we're announcing that brings you more of at Landia 36 00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:16,360 Speaker 1: off the mic um available every day. You can go 37 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:19,160 Speaker 1: and register now to our new digital zine with our 38 00:02:19,160 --> 00:02:23,480 Speaker 1: partners at new Stand at www dot new stand dot 39 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: com backslash new Landia. So new Landia is going to 40 00:02:27,240 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 1: be a curation of content from contributors around the industry. 41 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,360 Speaker 1: Go check that out. Register It is free to join. 42 00:02:33,639 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: So excited about it. And maybe there'll be some merch drops. 43 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 1: Maybe I think we're all in on the merch drops done, 44 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:41,560 Speaker 1: and we'd like to take a minute to thank our 45 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: partners over at Yield Move for helping us bring back 46 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: the show. We'll be chatting with the old Move over 47 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: the course of the next few episodes, talking about making 48 00:02:48,960 --> 00:02:51,959 Speaker 1: attention actionable, something Alexa and I have talked about at 49 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:54,519 Speaker 1: length on the show, so we're excited to dig back 50 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,960 Speaker 1: in with them in a four part mini series coming 51 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 1: too soon, thanks again to our launch partner, You'll know 52 00:03:00,000 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: yourm But that said, we have a big interview to 53 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: get to. We have a really special first episode and 54 00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 1: we were really excited about it. Malcolm Gladwell. It was 55 00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: an amazing conversation and I think you know what was 56 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:15,519 Speaker 1: really for me. There are a couple of great points 57 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: of clarity when he starts to talk about and you 58 00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: guys will hear it when he starts to talk about 59 00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:24,720 Speaker 1: storytelling in such a simple way with no pretense. For me, 60 00:03:24,840 --> 00:03:28,200 Speaker 1: I've got to underscore the no pretense because I feel 61 00:03:28,200 --> 00:03:34,240 Speaker 1: like right now, you know, as marketers, as advertisers, we 62 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:39,440 Speaker 1: need to do the best work and just be focused 63 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: on the best work with no pretense, none of the 64 00:03:42,000 --> 00:03:44,880 Speaker 1: pomp and circumstance, because that a lot of that's been 65 00:03:44,880 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: stripped away. I couldn't agree more. I think is a 66 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: real important reminder for brand marketers who are writing briefs 67 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: and sitting in the rooms making decisions about what narratives 68 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:59,640 Speaker 1: get put out into the world. So I'm excited for 69 00:03:59,680 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: everyone to hear this amazing first interview with Malcolm Gladwell. 70 00:04:14,560 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 1: Welcome back at Lantia. We are so excited to welcome 71 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:21,560 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, New York Times best selling author of books 72 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:25,320 Speaker 1: including The Tipping Point, Blank Outliers, David and Goliath, and Moore, 73 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:29,080 Speaker 1: including most recently Talking to Strangers. Go pick that up. 74 00:04:29,080 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 1: It's available now. Writer for The New Yorker, recognized as 75 00:04:32,800 --> 00:04:36,040 Speaker 1: one of Times one hundred most Influential People, podcast hosts 76 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,160 Speaker 1: of revisionist History and one of my personal favorites Broken Record, 77 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 1: and also co founder of Pushkin Industries. Malcolm, Welcome to Atlantia. 78 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:48,920 Speaker 1: Thank you. I'm glad to be here. Malcolm. We, you know, 79 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,960 Speaker 1: are huge fans of revisionist history and we love that. 80 00:04:54,279 --> 00:04:57,799 Speaker 1: You know, revisionist history is about the kind of story 81 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:01,279 Speaker 1: that was not told or the true behind a person 82 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: that wasn't recognized, and you're amazing kind of pulling these 83 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:11,680 Speaker 1: stories and these characters out of history and retelling a story. 84 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,240 Speaker 1: What's the most unlikely kind of storyteller that you admire 85 00:05:17,800 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: most in the pastor present? Unlikely? Who's the unrecognized storyteller 86 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,440 Speaker 1: that you point to in your head. That's a really 87 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,240 Speaker 1: good idea good question. Well, I suppose in your definition 88 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:36,120 Speaker 1: of unlikely. I read a lot of thrillers, spy stories, 89 00:05:36,800 --> 00:05:40,160 Speaker 1: those kinds of things, and I tend to think that 90 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 1: if you want to learn how to tell a story, 91 00:05:42,880 --> 00:05:47,680 Speaker 1: that's the way, that's where to look. And so, you know, 92 00:05:47,720 --> 00:05:52,359 Speaker 1: I've read every Jack Reacher novel. I have read every 93 00:05:52,400 --> 00:05:56,159 Speaker 1: Stephen Hunter novel. I have read every John Lacarey novel. 94 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: When I was a kid, I read every Christie novel. 95 00:06:00,560 --> 00:06:02,760 Speaker 1: When I was even younger, I read every I think 96 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:05,760 Speaker 1: I read every Hardy Boys book. You know. I I've 97 00:06:05,800 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: always thought that that the principles of good storytelling our 98 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,839 Speaker 1: universal and people in the world of fiction are probably 99 00:06:13,880 --> 00:06:15,599 Speaker 1: a step ahead of those of us in the world 100 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:17,919 Speaker 1: of nonfiction, and that's what we ought to you know, 101 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,520 Speaker 1: there's just questions about a lot of it is about pacing. 102 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 1: You know, storytelling is fundamentally I think a question of pacing, 103 00:06:25,040 --> 00:06:29,120 Speaker 1: that things have to come at the right moment um, 104 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: and you if you rush it, it doesn't work, and 105 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,160 Speaker 1: if you are too slow, it doesn't work. And that's 106 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:39,600 Speaker 1: what not That's what novelists think about endlessly, and I 107 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,200 Speaker 1: don't know whether we in the nonfiction world pay enough 108 00:06:42,200 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: attention to that particular problem. Can we go a step 109 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: further and talk about storytelling in the advertising world. I 110 00:06:50,080 --> 00:06:52,479 Speaker 1: know a fun fact, Malcolm, that I learned about you 111 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:56,360 Speaker 1: recently is that, um, you wanted to start out of 112 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,800 Speaker 1: school a career in advertising, and so there must have 113 00:06:59,839 --> 00:07:03,320 Speaker 1: been and something about storytelling through the lens of advertising 114 00:07:03,360 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: and marketing that intrigued you. How would you take what 115 00:07:06,520 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 1: you just shared and apply that a step further to 116 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 1: storytelling as it applies to brands. Well, the reason I 117 00:07:14,320 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: was obsessed and I remained obsessed with advertising, and I 118 00:07:16,680 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 1: did you quite right. Coming out of college, what I 119 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:21,800 Speaker 1: really wanted to do was go and work for an 120 00:07:21,840 --> 00:07:26,080 Speaker 1: ad agency. I applied to I think sixteen agencies and 121 00:07:26,160 --> 00:07:28,840 Speaker 1: got sixteen rejections. So that's why I went into journalism, 122 00:07:28,840 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 1: Because I couldn't get a job with my first love. 123 00:07:30,680 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: But what I admired was the economy of advertising. The 124 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 1: idea that you can tell a story in a thirty 125 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:44,240 Speaker 1: second television commercial is to me so fantastic and unbelievable, 126 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 1: and my I've often I always think people who do 127 00:07:47,000 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: those ads are the the greatest of all storytellers. You 128 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:54,000 Speaker 1: know that famous line of Mark Twain's I wrote you 129 00:07:54,080 --> 00:07:56,520 Speaker 1: a long letter because I didn't have time to write 130 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,920 Speaker 1: you a short one, and his point being it's harder 131 00:07:58,960 --> 00:08:03,160 Speaker 1: to tell a story briefly then at length, is so true. 132 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:05,800 Speaker 1: And the idea that there are television commercials that for 133 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,880 Speaker 1: thirty seconds long, where you you feel like you have 134 00:08:10,200 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 1: entered into someone's experience and you feel like a story 135 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:16,400 Speaker 1: has been told from beginning to end in thirty seconds, 136 00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:19,680 Speaker 1: it's just unbelievable to me. I mean, I don't think 137 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: I could do it, which is why I'm in such 138 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:24,760 Speaker 1: of it. From time to time, I call up if 139 00:08:24,760 --> 00:08:26,360 Speaker 1: I see an that I really love. On more than 140 00:08:26,400 --> 00:08:29,720 Speaker 1: one occasion, I have tracked down the person responsible for 141 00:08:29,800 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 1: it just to talk to them. Can you tell us 142 00:08:33,160 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: about a time when you did that? Yeah, there was 143 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,040 Speaker 1: one very memorable one, there was a Heineken ad where 144 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:41,280 Speaker 1: there were a bunch of people, young people in the 145 00:08:41,360 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: back of a taxi cab and the taxi driver, who's 146 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: this crusty old guy is is playing up. I think 147 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: it's a bell deev Devot song. They all start singing along. 148 00:08:51,920 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: It's this lovely moment because it's I think it's a 149 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,760 Speaker 1: guy and two girls and they're clearly coming home from 150 00:08:57,760 --> 00:08:59,080 Speaker 1: that out of the town and they're just a little 151 00:08:59,080 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 1: bit tipsy, and they start singing along to that song. 152 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 1: And then the taxi driver joins in and he's like 153 00:09:06,600 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: a seventy year old, angry looking guy, and it's just 154 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,880 Speaker 1: so lovely, Like everything about it is perfect. And I 155 00:09:14,920 --> 00:09:17,079 Speaker 1: call it the guy I was gonna do something. I 156 00:09:17,240 --> 00:09:19,280 Speaker 1: never ended up writing about it, but I just wanted 157 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: to talk to the guy who did it, just just 158 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:25,559 Speaker 1: say like, I'm sorry, that's genius, Like everything about it. 159 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,079 Speaker 1: I just had him tell me how that aad came 160 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,599 Speaker 1: about and how it was filmed, and I feel like 161 00:09:31,640 --> 00:09:33,720 Speaker 1: we started a new show where I think we just 162 00:09:33,720 --> 00:09:36,960 Speaker 1: started a new show. Malcolm can critique ads and or 163 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 1: find out the origin story of them if anybody's interested 164 00:09:40,520 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: in making that show called pushkin there's a Google Chrome 165 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,199 Speaker 1: ad too that I never did I talk to the 166 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:48,800 Speaker 1: guy who did it, or did I talk to someone 167 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: who knew the guy did it. I once on um 168 00:09:53,000 --> 00:09:57,640 Speaker 1: abbot Kinney in Venice ran into somebody who said hello. 169 00:09:57,679 --> 00:09:59,520 Speaker 1: It turns out he worked for an emergency and we 170 00:09:59,520 --> 00:10:02,120 Speaker 1: started talking king about our favorite ads, and I started 171 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: talking about that Google Chrome ad where the father. If 172 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,920 Speaker 1: you're not crying fifteen seconds into this one, you have 173 00:10:10,000 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: no heart. It's unbelieval. It's the she's gone to college 174 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:18,160 Speaker 1: and she's emailing with her dad and there you don't 175 00:10:18,200 --> 00:10:22,319 Speaker 1: realize until halfway in that that her dad is all 176 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,440 Speaker 1: she has left. Mom has just died. And there they're 177 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: they're wondering about how they they're missing the mom and wondering. 178 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: And as the dad is typing about the mother and 179 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 1: telling you the mother's dad, he all you see is 180 00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:38,440 Speaker 1: his key strokes, and his key strokes slowed down, and 181 00:10:38,480 --> 00:10:41,360 Speaker 1: it's just like at that moment, it's just it is 182 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 1: gut wrenching. Do you cry, ads? Do you correct? Oh? 183 00:10:45,160 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 1: My god, yeah, I totally cry. Why, I mean, of 184 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 1: course that's I cry. You remember the legendary Hallmark ads. Yeah, 185 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: I mean I was in tears. So the power of 186 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,240 Speaker 1: storytelling is obviously something that you've created, but it also 187 00:10:59,280 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: clearly reason rates with you. One of the things that 188 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:05,079 Speaker 1: we are curious to talk about is as you're such 189 00:11:05,120 --> 00:11:08,080 Speaker 1: a successful podcast host who has a massed an audience. 190 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:10,600 Speaker 1: I think you're something at three million downloads per episode 191 00:11:10,600 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: of Revisionist History, you know, thinking Malcolm about what it 192 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: takes to create or build an audience of that size, 193 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: but then also integrate brands into the conversation in such 194 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:23,880 Speaker 1: a way where you don't skip a beat and that 195 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 1: your audience is looking for the ads and or connects, 196 00:11:28,000 --> 00:11:30,960 Speaker 1: you know, sort of the message. Perhaps, How do you 197 00:11:31,040 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: think about integrating ads? I know you had some that 198 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: you've wanted to make over the years that never came 199 00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,400 Speaker 1: to fruition, one of which you shared around zip Recruiter 200 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:42,199 Speaker 1: and and the st Bernard. Can you talk to our 201 00:11:42,240 --> 00:11:46,680 Speaker 1: audience about how they should think about engaging with you 202 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,520 Speaker 1: as a podcast host and more importantly, connecting with your 203 00:11:49,559 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: audience in a meaningful way. Yeah, well, my I think 204 00:11:54,000 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: of my audience as as having a shared sensibility, not 205 00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: a shared demographic, and so I sort of know I 206 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: have an intuitive sense about why they're listening and why 207 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 1: they're reading my book, which is they I think they 208 00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:17,880 Speaker 1: share the same kind of curiosity I have and the 209 00:12:18,000 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 1: same sense of mischief. I don't take things that seriously, 210 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:25,800 Speaker 1: I mean every now and again, But I'm also I 211 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:29,120 Speaker 1: don't take myself, you know, insane these here. I mean, 212 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,000 Speaker 1: there's a kind of I don't know. There's a certain 213 00:12:31,800 --> 00:12:36,920 Speaker 1: there's a certain personality to revisionist history that um and 214 00:12:37,040 --> 00:12:39,480 Speaker 1: I think that the people who listen are people who 215 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:41,880 Speaker 1: don't necessarily agree with me, with people who just have 216 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:47,560 Speaker 1: that and appreciation for that personality. It's really my dad's personality. 217 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:55,199 Speaker 1: My father was someone who took like three things really seriously, mathematics, gardening, 218 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 1: and the Bible and nothing else. Everything else was up 219 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: for grabs. He could be convinced, he could joke about it, 220 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,200 Speaker 1: he could make fun of himself. I mean, outside of 221 00:13:05,200 --> 00:13:08,360 Speaker 1: those three realms, it just was Everything for him was 222 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:14,360 Speaker 1: a speculative exercise in in enjoyment and curiosity. And and 223 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:15,960 Speaker 1: I sort of in the same way, have a couple 224 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: of things that I'm passionate about, but the rest and 225 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,520 Speaker 1: I think people listen will share that, And so we're 226 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: interested in. I think of ideas as things that are 227 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: not just informative and interesting, but fun. I think it 228 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,800 Speaker 1: should be as fun to explore an idea as it 229 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 1: is to watch a movie or listen to an incredible song, 230 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 1: or go for an amazing walk, or whatever your choice 231 00:13:42,800 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 1: of pleasure is. So when I you know, when I 232 00:13:45,080 --> 00:13:47,720 Speaker 1: do an ad. I love to write my own ads 233 00:13:47,760 --> 00:13:53,400 Speaker 1: because I'm a frustrated copywriter, um and the best ones 234 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,440 Speaker 1: are the ones where I just bring that sensibility. So 235 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: Malcolm tell us a story about the same Bernard. Oh 236 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:01,920 Speaker 1: you had the same Bernard. Zippercruiter Red had a had 237 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:04,000 Speaker 1: a product they wanted to promote, which was a reverse. 238 00:14:04,080 --> 00:14:06,520 Speaker 1: Instead of employers looking for employees, it was going to 239 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:10,400 Speaker 1: be a potential employees would lose use ciprocruiter to look 240 00:14:10,440 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: for employers. And so I found this true story about 241 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:18,319 Speaker 1: a family like in the wilds of Minnesota who had 242 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:20,520 Speaker 1: a pet Saint Bernard, and the Saint Bernard got lost 243 00:14:20,640 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: and they had to go out looking for the St. Bernard, 244 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:25,680 Speaker 1: which of course is you know. St. Bernard's historically are 245 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:27,560 Speaker 1: the ones who looked for people lost in the snow, 246 00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: and they're Saint Bernard got lost in the snow. So 247 00:14:30,360 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 1: it was the perfect So the whole thing was about 248 00:14:32,760 --> 00:14:35,640 Speaker 1: this Saint Bernard who got lost, and it was it 249 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,200 Speaker 1: was this complicated hilarious, I thought, hilarious, perhaps not in 250 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:43,280 Speaker 1: real life allegory for what Zippercruiter was trying to do 251 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 1: with their But then sadly they decided they didn't want 252 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: to promote that, and so this is one of this 253 00:14:48,360 --> 00:14:51,040 Speaker 1: is this loss. This is like one of those you know, 254 00:14:51,120 --> 00:14:54,560 Speaker 1: in Soviet Russia, they would always be these legendary manuscripts 255 00:14:54,560 --> 00:14:56,520 Speaker 1: that never saw the lot of day. This is this 256 00:14:56,560 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: is the legendary laws Zippercruiter at I think you're more 257 00:14:59,760 --> 00:15:03,280 Speaker 1: of a creative director than you know, because every creative 258 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:07,160 Speaker 1: director experience is that pretty much every day with clients, 259 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:11,680 Speaker 1: cutting room floor, cutting room floor. I want to do 260 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,160 Speaker 1: if I ever did an AD show, I want to 261 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: I just want to play all those the ones that 262 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 1: never made it, I think are the fun ones. I 263 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:22,160 Speaker 1: want to hear all the ones that I just think 264 00:15:22,160 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: that that would be hilarious. You've talked a lot about 265 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: your voice, and there's been a lot of you know, 266 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,800 Speaker 1: folks who have written about your voice as a writer 267 00:15:31,200 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: as a storyteller. Was there a time when you realize 268 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,920 Speaker 1: you had galvanized your own voice and that perspective. Was 269 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,640 Speaker 1: there like a specific moment that you realized or was 270 00:15:43,680 --> 00:15:46,800 Speaker 1: it over time? I mean the first time I ever 271 00:15:48,520 --> 00:15:51,160 Speaker 1: it was starting the podcast. It was you know, uh, 272 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:56,360 Speaker 1: doing the podcast was the first time when I really 273 00:15:56,400 --> 00:16:00,000 Speaker 1: had to use my voice, right, like literally, yes, literally 274 00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,200 Speaker 1: use my voice. And so, and I realized I have 275 00:16:02,240 --> 00:16:07,560 Speaker 1: a different spoken sensibility, slightly difference so than written sensibility. 276 00:16:07,800 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: At least my running tends to be a lot more straightforward. 277 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: There's still some playfulness there, but it's not as in person. 278 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,000 Speaker 1: In speech, I'm more playful than I am in writing. 279 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 1: And so it was not until I formally was required 280 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: to use my voice and tell stories this way that 281 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:31,600 Speaker 1: I began to realize, oh, you know, this is actually 282 00:16:32,680 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: assided myself that I really like and think is fun 283 00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: and that people will respond to. What's it done for 284 00:16:38,640 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: your storytelling? I mean, you've talked about this a bit, 285 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: but if you feel like more expressive in audio in voice, 286 00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: has it changed the way you tell the stories? The 287 00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: thing about podcast is you don't have to you can 288 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: meander a little bit in a way you can in print. 289 00:16:56,600 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 1: And it's that's really that's that suits me because I 290 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 1: am a man and I there's tons of asides that 291 00:17:05,800 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: I want to go on, Like in one of the 292 00:17:08,160 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: podcasts episodes is coming up in season five with this 293 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: little moment, I'm talking about his painting, and this is 294 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: a particular van go that, in its long history, was 295 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 1: once owned by the heiress to the Kmart fortune who 296 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: lived in Detroit. And what's hilarious about her life is 297 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:26,119 Speaker 1: that she was briefly for a year married to a 298 00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:31,040 Speaker 1: Swedish baron and she convinces him to move from London 299 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: to Detroit, and the marriage lasts six months and he's 300 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:36,879 Speaker 1: out of there. Of course, it's Detroit in the fifties. 301 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:41,120 Speaker 1: What Swedish baron from London is gonna want, it's gonna 302 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,480 Speaker 1: survive and move to Detroit. So it's like that kind 303 00:17:44,520 --> 00:17:46,840 Speaker 1: of thing. If you're writing about it, do you put 304 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:49,840 Speaker 1: that in? Sort of hard because it's that story, That 305 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:53,679 Speaker 1: little digression requires a certain tone of voice, right, But 306 00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:55,680 Speaker 1: in a podcast, of course you put it in because 307 00:17:55,680 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: it's hilarious. So it's like, it's just there's so much 308 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:02,760 Speaker 1: more playfulness inherently in and that's the thing about the 309 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:06,440 Speaker 1: ads to the ads are just it's just so much fun. 310 00:18:06,680 --> 00:18:08,879 Speaker 1: It's just there's so much you can do if you 311 00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 1: put your mind to it in that space when you 312 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: when you incorporate ads into a podcast. I was blown 313 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:18,680 Speaker 1: away by the subtle yet impactful insight you shared at 314 00:18:18,680 --> 00:18:21,119 Speaker 1: a dinner not that long ago, Malcolm, when you talked 315 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,160 Speaker 1: audio book sales surpassing print. I got stuck on it 316 00:18:25,560 --> 00:18:28,280 Speaker 1: and I'm still stuck on it because I think there's 317 00:18:28,280 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 1: something that's so true how you can develop a relationship 318 00:18:31,240 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 1: through spoken word versus written but also just a sign 319 00:18:34,640 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: of the times and how people are choosing to consume content, 320 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: and so much that I believe you're going to be 321 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,840 Speaker 1: the first author to hit a million audiobook sales. Is 322 00:18:42,880 --> 00:18:44,879 Speaker 1: that accurate? I don't know what in the first I 323 00:18:44,920 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: don't know how many Michelle Obama is sold, but I 324 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,760 Speaker 1: don't I don't imagine there are a ton of others. Yes, 325 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: approaching a million audio book sales and that surpassing print 326 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:56,040 Speaker 1: for the first time was a sort of thing to 327 00:18:56,080 --> 00:18:59,120 Speaker 1: think about as I'm sure now you're thinking about format 328 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: and so much that you share that you don't know 329 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:03,679 Speaker 1: that you might ever write a book again. So what 330 00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:05,760 Speaker 1: is that signal to you in in terms of the 331 00:19:05,800 --> 00:19:08,040 Speaker 1: way people want to engage and they want to learn 332 00:19:08,160 --> 00:19:10,720 Speaker 1: and interact with hosts and all the other things that 333 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 1: it might point to. Well, it's I mean, I should 334 00:19:14,480 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: say that I don't think books are dead. Far from it. 335 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 1: This is first of all an indication of just my 336 00:19:22,359 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: shifting interests that I like this way of storytelling. I 337 00:19:26,320 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: like working with groups. It's much more of a team 338 00:19:30,119 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: exercise to do something in audio. I like how emotional 339 00:19:34,000 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: audio is. That's what those are the kinds of stories 340 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: I want to tell these days. I like how you 341 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,120 Speaker 1: know they will come on point when brands like Pushkin 342 00:19:45,680 --> 00:19:49,840 Speaker 1: will clearly we're going to be selling our audiobooks directly 343 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: at some point, there'll be no intermediary. I love that 344 00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: the book business has, for obvious reasons, has all kinds 345 00:19:56,760 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: of intermediary steps. You need printers and distribute tars and 346 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: trucks and bookstores and you know, on and on and 347 00:20:03,320 --> 00:20:06,560 Speaker 1: on and on. I love the idea of finishing something 348 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: on a Monday and sending it out to my audience 349 00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,800 Speaker 1: on a Tuesday. That's kind of great. And boy am 350 00:20:11,800 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 1: I grateful in the middle of this pandemic that my 351 00:20:15,680 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 1: audiobook is more popular than my physical book because people 352 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,879 Speaker 1: aren't going to bookstores right now, you know, they can 353 00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,639 Speaker 1: sload it online. But you know, there's something there's just 354 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:27,600 Speaker 1: something really powerful about the immediacy of this particular experience 355 00:20:28,200 --> 00:20:30,440 Speaker 1: and that appeals to me a lot at the moment 356 00:20:30,480 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 1: as a storyteller. At the end, I believe it was 357 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,159 Speaker 1: season one of Revisionist History. Alex and I went to 358 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 1: see you do a live reading at the Apple Store 359 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: in soho Um and I just remember the two of 360 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:46,840 Speaker 1: us sitting at the back watching. It was like being 361 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,000 Speaker 1: at a at a concert standing room only, and you know, 362 00:20:50,160 --> 00:20:54,040 Speaker 1: everyone was leaning forward and couldn't wait to ask questions 363 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,879 Speaker 1: At the end, how do you think about sort of 364 00:20:56,880 --> 00:21:00,359 Speaker 1: that two way relationship that podcasting might allow you to have. 365 00:21:00,640 --> 00:21:02,840 Speaker 1: Is it any different than when you would be doing 366 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:05,640 Speaker 1: the book tour? Do you find more in between moments 367 00:21:05,720 --> 00:21:08,800 Speaker 1: to engage during a season and especially during the time 368 00:21:08,840 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: of COVID, How how are you engaging with your audience 369 00:21:12,280 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: or and how do you imagine you were moving forward? Well, 370 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: it's a much more intimate relationship with the audience um 371 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:21,439 Speaker 1: the minute they can hear your voice. So if you 372 00:21:21,480 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: think about this to backtrack fro a moment um, the 373 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,560 Speaker 1: people who have the most intimate relationship with their audiences 374 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:34,800 Speaker 1: are people who are on television, so actors sometimes, although 375 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:37,760 Speaker 1: the actor thing is weird because the person is often 376 00:21:37,840 --> 00:21:40,800 Speaker 1: relating to the actor, to a character and not when 377 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:43,400 Speaker 1: I think, you know, when I meet Jennifer Anderson, I'm 378 00:21:43,440 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: not thinking about Jennifer Andison. I'm thinking about our character 379 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:49,959 Speaker 1: and friends. Right, So there's a real intimacy when you 380 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 1: hear someone in a in a consistent context um and 381 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 1: they become a part of your the kind of the 382 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:03,800 Speaker 1: furnace sure of your life. You it's not a it 383 00:22:04,000 --> 00:22:06,800 Speaker 1: becomes there's a there's a you know you almost This 384 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:09,679 Speaker 1: is we know that weird thing where if you if 385 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:12,919 Speaker 1: you were to run into someone like that, you're not 386 00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,160 Speaker 1: sure whether to call them by their first or last name, 387 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,960 Speaker 1: because they seem like they're now with an author, you 388 00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: don't have that if you're writing a book, people don't 389 00:22:22,720 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: think of you as a friend. They don't feel like 390 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: they know you. They you know, there's you're sort of abstract. 391 00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: Podcasting is much closer to the first model. And so 392 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: you know, you people who come up to me now 393 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 1: because of my podcasts, they're approaching me not as a 394 00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 1: celebrity but as a friend. That's a really interesting that's different. Um, 395 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,280 Speaker 1: it's no, you never hear Mr glaud bow which I 396 00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:54,000 Speaker 1: would hear in the book Days it's Mr Gladbow O, 397 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: could you sign my book? Now? It's like Malcolm, it's 398 00:22:58,320 --> 00:23:01,000 Speaker 1: like and the way they approach she was totally different. 399 00:23:01,000 --> 00:23:03,720 Speaker 1: It's like the distance is gone. It's like not in 400 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:06,680 Speaker 1: a not just way, it's actually lovely. It's like there's 401 00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:09,560 Speaker 1: no it's just like a they feel like they've been 402 00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:11,480 Speaker 1: having a conversation with me and they want to continue 403 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,160 Speaker 1: the conversation. And that's powerful stuff. That's amazing, right, That's 404 00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:19,760 Speaker 1: that's the gold standard that you know when you're if 405 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: you're interested in building. I really have a sense now 406 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:26,560 Speaker 1: that I am actively building an audience. There's a community 407 00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:30,119 Speaker 1: of people out there who are waiting for the next episode. 408 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:33,520 Speaker 1: And who are you know who just kind of to 409 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: use a sixties expression, who like dig what's big revisions history? Right, 410 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:43,200 Speaker 1: It's like that's kind of great, like that we were 411 00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:47,159 Speaker 1: doing some research before this and book sales for some 412 00:23:47,320 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 1: of your earlier books, like The Tipping Point reached two 413 00:23:50,760 --> 00:23:54,440 Speaker 1: million book sales worldwide. It's interesting to think about each 414 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,800 Speaker 1: episode reaches three million and sort of carrying that audience 415 00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 1: along as you know it you're going into You said 416 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: season five, just how incredible it is to build that 417 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,879 Speaker 1: audience over time. And you've used this phrase in the 418 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 1: previous conversation of the idea of having loyalty over novelty, 419 00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:12,919 Speaker 1: which I think we're going to put on a T 420 00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,879 Speaker 1: shirt because it's we love that. It's something that we 421 00:24:15,920 --> 00:24:20,200 Speaker 1: would talk to brands and media companies about all the time, 422 00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:24,640 Speaker 1: which was stopped going for the kind of lowest common denominator. 423 00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:29,000 Speaker 1: Make it valuable to write, make it valuable to someone. 424 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:31,840 Speaker 1: In the minute you do that, you start to differentiate yourself. 425 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,800 Speaker 1: I think, especially right now, the world is kind of 426 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,080 Speaker 1: grappling with that, like how do they proceed, especially kind 427 00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: of post COVID, what is meaningful? How do we kind 428 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:43,840 Speaker 1: of proceed to be ourselves? Which is a kind of 429 00:24:44,000 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 1: interesting question. I don't know if you have thought, Yeah, 430 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 1: this loyalty novelty thing has a number of different interesting dimensions, um, 431 00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,720 Speaker 1: but one is that loyalty is a conversation and novelty 432 00:24:58,800 --> 00:25:03,119 Speaker 1: is a monologue. WHOA wha did you just hear what 433 00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: Malcolm said, Ryan, let's rewind that we got to hear 434 00:25:06,880 --> 00:25:15,640 Speaker 1: it again. Loyalty is a conversation and novelty as a monologue. 435 00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:18,720 Speaker 1: And so and then he applies both to people like 436 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 1: me and also to brands that if you want loyalty, 437 00:25:22,800 --> 00:25:25,080 Speaker 1: you have to have find a way to to have 438 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,680 Speaker 1: a conversation with those who you are. So to give 439 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,240 Speaker 1: you an example, we we just got them as an advertiser. 440 00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,359 Speaker 1: Actually because I'm such so in love with the brand. 441 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:38,480 Speaker 1: I'm a runner and there's this new sportswear brand called 442 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:42,639 Speaker 1: track Smith, which is like the cool running brand and 443 00:25:42,680 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 1: the stuff is really really I mean I'm wearing I 444 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:49,160 Speaker 1: wear it like all the time I met the guy 445 00:25:49,200 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 1: who found the company. I mean, I'm I'm in the 446 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,159 Speaker 1: tank for this cumpy. I'll be honest, as there are 447 00:25:53,200 --> 00:25:57,000 Speaker 1: a lot of runners, I know. It's just beautiful stuff 448 00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,800 Speaker 1: made for runners, by runners, and you. The reason it 449 00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 1: can that brand connects to me is I feel like 450 00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: it's a conversation, not a literal conversation, but I feel 451 00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: like they're when I look at the way the stuff 452 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,879 Speaker 1: they're putting out changes over time. It's almost as if 453 00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:18,960 Speaker 1: they're like responding to what runners like me want that 454 00:26:19,040 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 1: there are you know, it's people like me making stuff 455 00:26:21,840 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: for people like me. I don't know, So that's that 456 00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,160 Speaker 1: strikes me. That's that's loyalty and action, you know. I 457 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:31,080 Speaker 1: My suspicion is I'll be wearing that brand ten years 458 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:33,359 Speaker 1: from now. I really do believe that. But if the 459 00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: brands were thinking the way you're talking about things and 460 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: giving themselves license to actually grow and not just grow 461 00:26:41,920 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: the bottom line, but grow the relationship in a meaningful way, 462 00:26:45,800 --> 00:26:48,680 Speaker 1: I think we would see very different, very different work, 463 00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,760 Speaker 1: very different products. Steven and Goliath hit me in a 464 00:26:51,920 --> 00:26:56,280 Speaker 1: very different way. And one of the things that you said, um, 465 00:26:56,440 --> 00:26:59,399 Speaker 1: I actually think it's in your promo for Masterclass, was 466 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: why did you lose? Right? Because they've become so big 467 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,480 Speaker 1: and so powerful that they actually lose the ability to see, 468 00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 1: and that Goliath literally and physically lost his ability to see. 469 00:27:13,280 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: We're in this really interesting era if I take that 470 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: into the media world, in the consumer world, um, where 471 00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:25,760 Speaker 1: the ad dollars are dominated by a couple of players, right, 472 00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:31,360 Speaker 1: and they're sitting on rings of data and analytics about us, 473 00:27:31,440 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: about our behaviors, about everything right, how we live, where 474 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,880 Speaker 1: we live, all that stuff. But does that really actually 475 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:41,959 Speaker 1: help them in the long run. There's something that's a 476 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: bigger question here, um that if they want to have 477 00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:49,679 Speaker 1: this discourse, if they want to have that relationship, you know, 478 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:51,639 Speaker 1: do they get to the place where they're too big 479 00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,120 Speaker 1: to see even though they've got all of the information 480 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: to see. What do you think about that? What's the 481 00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: future with where all this consolidation is making the goliath? 482 00:28:04,280 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: I think this a lot with I'm a car nut. 483 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:10,639 Speaker 1: I spend huge amounts of every day on car websites, 484 00:28:11,000 --> 00:28:15,240 Speaker 1: and the stereotypical obvious example of this is General Motors 485 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,440 Speaker 1: and Generals is an interesting It's interesting in a number 486 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: of ways because as a car fanatic, I am aware 487 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 1: of the fact, as are all car fonetics, that General 488 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,159 Speaker 1: Motors makes really good cars and has now for the 489 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: last ten fifteen years at least four or five of 490 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:36,159 Speaker 1: their cars are world class automnbills, which is for a 491 00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:39,959 Speaker 1: car manufacturer, given the constraints they're under with their legacy 492 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 1: cos with there is really high and I just think, 493 00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:45,960 Speaker 1: how on earth can a company that probably spends what 494 00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 1: to three billion dollars a year on advertising, So that's 495 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,920 Speaker 1: over the last ten years thirty billion dollars in communicating 496 00:28:54,920 --> 00:28:58,720 Speaker 1: with the largely the American public has been unable to 497 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,480 Speaker 1: communicate the fact that they make really good cars. There 498 00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:04,520 Speaker 1: has to be there must be many explanations for that, 499 00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: but one is that it's just it must be just 500 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 1: something about side. I mean, there's something about I mean, 501 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:13,400 Speaker 1: I look at their advertising. I don't I don't want 502 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,600 Speaker 1: to step on anyone's does, but there's nothing particularly compelling 503 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,160 Speaker 1: about it. It certainly doesn't communicate the idea that they 504 00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:23,520 Speaker 1: make really good cars, um, you know, which is kind 505 00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:28,000 Speaker 1: of shocking, Like, you know, I really obviously example, forgive 506 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,640 Speaker 1: me what I riff on this. You know, the Chevy 507 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:34,400 Speaker 1: um Bolt previously the volt is A is one of 508 00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:38,840 Speaker 1: the best electric cars in the world and has been 509 00:29:39,040 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: for I mean, it is a gold standard e V. 510 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:44,680 Speaker 1: How is it that nobody knows that fact. How is 511 00:29:44,720 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: it that nobody knows that dollar for dollar, the Corvette 512 00:29:47,680 --> 00:29:49,680 Speaker 1: right now is probably the greatest sports car made in 513 00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:53,880 Speaker 1: the world, or that the Chevy SS is a car 514 00:29:54,000 --> 00:29:58,040 Speaker 1: that every single car nut in America would die to 515 00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,920 Speaker 1: own a Chevy s S if they could find one, 516 00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:02,920 Speaker 1: or you know, I could go on like I don't, 517 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,120 Speaker 1: I just don't. Just baffles me totally. Do you think 518 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,120 Speaker 1: it's because we when you look at like an advertising 519 00:30:09,120 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: brief and I'm curious to think about, like are their 520 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,280 Speaker 1: book briefs? Right? Like when you go and you think 521 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:16,240 Speaker 1: about telling a story, right and you come up with 522 00:30:16,280 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: an idea for what that's going to be. Do you 523 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: start with what the objective is and how many books 524 00:30:21,520 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 1: you need to sell and what you hope the output 525 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,560 Speaker 1: is on the other side of that narrative, or do 526 00:30:27,600 --> 00:30:31,040 Speaker 1: you go into writing a story or a book or 527 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 1: or creating an episode of revisionist history because there's a 528 00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: conversation you want to have with people connection you're trying 529 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:41,400 Speaker 1: to make. That's where the disconnect I think between because 530 00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:43,120 Speaker 1: I've heard you say this, Malcolm, and we've said it 531 00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,760 Speaker 1: many times on this show. People don't hate ads, they 532 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: hate bad ads, and and does that all begin further 533 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:53,440 Speaker 1: upstream in the brief or you're more focused on the 534 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,960 Speaker 1: transactional outcome than the relationship with the people who are transacting. Yeah, No, 535 00:30:59,080 --> 00:31:00,560 Speaker 1: I think I think you have mean you would know 536 00:31:00,640 --> 00:31:03,520 Speaker 1: way better than me. But um, you're the But I 537 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:05,959 Speaker 1: think you're right. There's some there is some kind of 538 00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 1: fundamental there's something I don't know what the what the 539 00:31:09,440 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: institutional processes that is causing this gulf between the audience 540 00:31:16,480 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: and the product. Um, but you're right, they're not. We 541 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,200 Speaker 1: don't we When I sit down and do an episode, 542 00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 1: I write a book or do an episode of vision History, 543 00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 1: I don't start with my expectations of how many UM 544 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:31,960 Speaker 1: downloads we're gonna shift, right, It's not even it didn't 545 00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:34,560 Speaker 1: even occur to me. I I just think about what's 546 00:31:34,560 --> 00:31:37,240 Speaker 1: an interesting story to tell, and I have faith that 547 00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:40,719 Speaker 1: if I tell it in a compelling way, people will 548 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: gravitate towards it. Um. I don't even know what the 549 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: downloads are. I mean, I care less. It's not my 550 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 1: it's not my problem, you know. My problem is to 551 00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:52,680 Speaker 1: tell great stories. Jacob Weisberg, your business partner, want me 552 00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:59,240 Speaker 1: to say three million downloads per episode US? But but 553 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,120 Speaker 1: can we can we stick on that for a second. 554 00:32:01,160 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 1: How do you know when you've landed on a book 555 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:08,320 Speaker 1: ready idea? Mm hmm. If you had tried to figure 556 00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 1: out ahead of time, you never would do it. Um 557 00:32:11,240 --> 00:32:15,520 Speaker 1: and that's those are the hair raising ones, because you know, 558 00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:18,480 Speaker 1: you commit a lot of time and investment in something 559 00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:23,800 Speaker 1: without knowing whether it's going to pan out. And um uh, 560 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: you know I did this. In this upcoming season, we 561 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:31,040 Speaker 1: have a four part series on this Air Force general 562 00:32:31,040 --> 00:32:34,959 Speaker 1: called Curtis LeMay. It was originally one one episode, then 563 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: it became two, then it became three, then it became four. Um. 564 00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 1: And just because I got into it and realized, oh, 565 00:32:41,440 --> 00:32:43,560 Speaker 1: there's another side to this and oh wait a minute, 566 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 1: I don't think about this guy the same way now 567 00:32:45,840 --> 00:32:49,440 Speaker 1: that I did a month ago. Um. I was constantly 568 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:52,440 Speaker 1: updating and revising and adding to my understanding. And that 569 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:55,600 Speaker 1: turned out Now that's the heart of the of the 570 00:32:55,880 --> 00:32:58,040 Speaker 1: of the of the of the season. That was not 571 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: something I could have in January A. I would have 572 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:06,160 Speaker 1: said something completely different. Um. And that's that's curiosity, just 573 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:13,160 Speaker 1: being an agnostic to where the story takes you. So, Malcolm, 574 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: what is your kill? By d I Y? What would 575 00:33:16,520 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: you kill in the world? What would you purchase a chore? 576 00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: And what would you do yourself? Anything? Anything? Anything? Anything? 577 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: So what would I would you get rid of if 578 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,560 Speaker 1: you could strike from existing on the earth? What would 579 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 1: it be, Oh god, so many things. Um, golf I 580 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: get rid of, so that all golf courses could be 581 00:33:41,480 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: converted to running. Um, of course they're perfect for running. 582 00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:49,840 Speaker 1: Um think that's what. Okay, I'll kill golf. What's the 583 00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: next one? Which what would I acquire by? What would 584 00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:57,640 Speaker 1: you buy? What I would buy would be, um, probably 585 00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:02,360 Speaker 1: a car of some kind. Um, I think I would buy. 586 00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:08,560 Speaker 1: I would love to own a I mean you mean anything, 587 00:34:08,600 --> 00:34:14,720 Speaker 1: anything unlimited. Oh, then I would buy a BMW Z eight, 588 00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:18,160 Speaker 1: which is a no longer hasn't been you know, the 589 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:20,919 Speaker 1: last one was made I think in probably two thousand seven, 590 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:26,040 Speaker 1: one of the world's most gorgeous sports cars. Um, they're new, 591 00:34:26,080 --> 00:34:28,040 Speaker 1: like they're a hundred and fifty grand, so a little 592 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:30,840 Speaker 1: rich to my taste at the moment. But um, if 593 00:34:30,880 --> 00:34:33,800 Speaker 1: this game is writing me is giving me a blank 594 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: check getting getting Z eight And then the last one 595 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:44,640 Speaker 1: is yourself. Yeah, so what would you create? Make nothing 596 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: you've done before? Well, I'd like to. I can't do it, 597 00:34:48,440 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 1: but if I were not a journalist, I would Another 598 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: one of the things I would have always loved to 599 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:59,160 Speaker 1: be with was a developer. I would like to build 600 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,240 Speaker 1: something like a house My brother is a very handy. 601 00:35:03,280 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: If my d I I would be I would ship 602 00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 1: my brother down to where I am and we would 603 00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:16,200 Speaker 1: build the loveliest little, you know, small gorgeous cottage um 604 00:35:16,239 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 1: which would serve as at whatever office, guest room, recording studio, whatever, 605 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,960 Speaker 1: recording studio, whatever. But that's what I would I would 606 00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:30,000 Speaker 1: build something really small and really beautiful, tucked into the woods. Malcolm, 607 00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:33,759 Speaker 1: Thank you. This was amazing fun. Yes, so much. You're 608 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,120 Speaker 1: welcome back anytime. If people want to get in touch 609 00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: with you to do host reads, how can they get 610 00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: in touch with you? They should get in touch with 611 00:35:42,880 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: head a Faint. Go to the pushkin dot fm website 612 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:50,720 Speaker 1: and email our director of marketing, head a Faint and 613 00:35:50,840 --> 00:35:54,160 Speaker 1: she will line it all up. Malcolm, thank you so 614 00:35:54,239 --> 00:36:00,239 Speaker 1: much for joining us. Thank guys, Bye bye. What a 615 00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:02,840 Speaker 1: first episode? Did we just drop the mic? Here? Was 616 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 1: that the whole season? In one take? I'm joining Malcolm 617 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,959 Speaker 1: Glad while Agency r Us and we just talked about 618 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:10,080 Speaker 1: that mic drop in the middle of the conversation. That 619 00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 1: is definitely going on some merch. Yeah, it's definitely going 620 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:18,320 Speaker 1: on some merch. Loyalty is a conversation. Novelty is a monologue. 621 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,799 Speaker 1: I think that's probably one of the things that the 622 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:25,280 Speaker 1: industry needs to think about the most. When we're chasing 623 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:31,240 Speaker 1: right the cheap and chasing something that's cute and chasing 624 00:36:31,360 --> 00:36:34,880 Speaker 1: something that's just an eyeball. Everyone wants to have this 625 00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:37,879 Speaker 1: deep relationship with their customer. Everyone wants to actually make 626 00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:40,200 Speaker 1: their brand means something. No one wants to have a 627 00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:47,120 Speaker 1: brand that is fair weather, that is shallow. Everyone wants 628 00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 1: to build something, So we actually have to go build it. 629 00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:53,239 Speaker 1: We actually have to go put the energy into it. Well, 630 00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: when you think about starting with the outcomes before we 631 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: even get to the thing we're talking about, we already 632 00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 1: know what we wanted to do, before we even have 633 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:05,839 Speaker 1: an idea. Yeah, I love he actually talks about this. 634 00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:08,640 Speaker 1: He said, I don't know what is happening in the 635 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:13,240 Speaker 1: industry or in the institutional process that there's a golf 636 00:37:13,600 --> 00:37:17,280 Speaker 1: between the audience and the product and we're actually creating 637 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,560 Speaker 1: it because that golf actually doesn't exist. So when we're 638 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 1: in our process of briefing to your point, we're actually 639 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:29,200 Speaker 1: going for the KPI and the outcome and that instead 640 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:33,400 Speaker 1: of the relationship, right, and and by that you've already 641 00:37:33,400 --> 00:37:36,759 Speaker 1: failed the reality of what he said is like, I 642 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:42,320 Speaker 1: don't think about three million plus downloads per episode before 643 00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 1: I think about the idea. I'm not even thinking about 644 00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:50,320 Speaker 1: it at all. A great idea, a great story will deliver. 645 00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:53,600 Speaker 1: But it's the truth because at the end of the day, 646 00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:59,080 Speaker 1: making good and being able to discern what good is, 647 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,240 Speaker 1: that's kind of all it's about. And speaking of good, 648 00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:08,839 Speaker 1: I think it's time for good Landia. Good landy uh So, 649 00:38:08,880 --> 00:38:11,720 Speaker 1: in our first ever good Landia, we wanted to partner 650 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,879 Speaker 1: with the AD Council. It's really highlight and support initiatives 651 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: that are moving our industry and society forward. So for 652 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:21,160 Speaker 1: this month of October, we're gonna be totally focused on voting. 653 00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: Make sure you have a plan to vote. So, speaking 654 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,160 Speaker 1: of having a plan, the AD Council developed a campaign 655 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: in partnership with Viacom CBS called Vote for Your Life. 656 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:33,320 Speaker 1: It makes it easy for potential voters to register to 657 00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:36,239 Speaker 1: vote and make a plan to vote early. If you 658 00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:38,440 Speaker 1: want to vote by mail or if you prefer to 659 00:38:38,520 --> 00:38:41,440 Speaker 1: drop your ballot off in person at a local dropbox 660 00:38:41,600 --> 00:38:45,120 Speaker 1: or county election office, time is running out. The election 661 00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 1: is just weeks away November three, so request a ballot 662 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,680 Speaker 1: in time to be counted. Don't wait, go to vote 663 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:54,640 Speaker 1: for your life dot com and make sure you vote. 664 00:38:55,040 --> 00:39:06,520 Speaker 1: This is a message from good Landia. So what an episode, 665 00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:09,840 Speaker 1: first episode, so many new people to thank at I 666 00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,479 Speaker 1: heart first and foremost want to thank our producer new 667 00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:18,360 Speaker 1: on the Mike with us, Ryan Marts. Thank you so much. Ryan. 668 00:39:18,640 --> 00:39:20,839 Speaker 1: Why don't you give them a little hello with that 669 00:39:21,200 --> 00:39:27,000 Speaker 1: velvety voice, Little Hello, little perfect Bryan Martz on the Mike, 670 00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:29,400 Speaker 1: Laura hit it with the list of all of our 671 00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 1: friends and family I heart who have been so good 672 00:39:31,520 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: to us and helped us get back on air. Big 673 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: thank you to Bob Conal, Carter, Andy, Eric Gayle Val, 674 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: Michael Jen We appreciate you. Thank you so much for 675 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,520 Speaker 1: this opportunity. And speaking of family, to the at Landia family. 676 00:39:44,719 --> 00:39:46,839 Speaker 1: We are so happy to be back. Thank you for 677 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: all the love, all the messages, all the when are 678 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,160 Speaker 1: you coming back? We are back, So tell your friends, 679 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:55,960 Speaker 1: tell your family. We'll see you in two weeks.