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Speaker 1: This is a me eater podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten, and in my case, underwear. Listening to us,

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Speaker 1: you can't predict anything presented by First Light, creating proven

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Speaker 1: versatile hunting apparel from Marino bass layers to technical outerwear.

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Speaker 1: For every hunt, First Light, Go farther, stay longer. All right, everybody,

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Speaker 1: we're gonna dig deep on um. We're gonna dig deep

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Speaker 1: on wolverines today. We've got a lot of stuff to cover,

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Speaker 1: but we're gonna get way into wolverines with Rebecca Waters.

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Speaker 1: Is that right, Yes, Director of the Wolverine Foundation. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna start things off by fact checking Yanni. Do you

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Speaker 1: believe Rebecca? Do you believe that Yanni believes that a

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Speaker 1: wolverine hang out with his dad? Oh, and then one day,

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Speaker 1: how's it going? One day he kicks his dad's ass.

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Speaker 1: They're getting a big getting a big fight, and they're

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Speaker 1: basically like, fight, duke it out. He was saying that,

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Speaker 1: how it's a lot like people like you're raised by

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Speaker 1: your dad, eventually getting a giant fight, duke it out,

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Speaker 1: and then you separate ways, never to talk again. Do

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Speaker 1: I believe that he believes that? No? No No, no, no no, No,

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Speaker 1: do you know do you believe that's true about wolverines?

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Speaker 1: Do I believe that it's true? Um? I think so

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Speaker 1: that they will actually separate at a certain point, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: from their dad, from their from their parents. Yes. Do

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Speaker 1: you know if it's precipitated by a large fight. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's like a father son thing. Oh

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Speaker 1: you know, Um, I don't. I don't know that that

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Speaker 1: that we have recorded instances of father son fights like that,

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Speaker 1: So I'm not sure, you know, I don't know whether

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Speaker 1: I'm believing it or not believing it makes it true.

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Speaker 1: It's just I can tell you that we've never actually

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Speaker 1: observed that happening. But we have observed young male wolverines

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Speaker 1: coming into the territory of an older male wolverine and

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Speaker 1: getting into a big fight with them and kicking them out.

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Speaker 1: So maybe kicking the old man out, kicking the old

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Speaker 1: man out, but maybe not your dad, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: maybe it's just some random old man who you don't like. Wow,

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Speaker 1: that's like everybody knows the part about Oedipus about what

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Speaker 1: he happens with his mom, but they don't know what

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Speaker 1: happens with his dad. Do you know, I can't remember, okay,

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Speaker 1: Oedipus doesn't Oedipus the edible complex. Oedipus doesn't know that

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Speaker 1: he's He doesn't. He doesn't know that he like he's

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Speaker 1: not raised by his parents, but he thinks he's raised

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Speaker 1: by his parents. He does know he's adopted. And he

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Speaker 1: goes to like a witch doctor, and the witch doctor says,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you your future. What are you? What are

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Speaker 1: you smirking about? And he goes to a witch doctor?

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Speaker 1: What do you think? I love? He went to se

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Speaker 1: yes because I love the modernized er. He goes to

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Speaker 1: a same same witch doctor. The seer says, here's here's

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Speaker 1: your fortune, here's your what's the word. I'm looking for

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Speaker 1: your future? Here's your future. You're gonna kill your dad

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Speaker 1: and marry your mom. So he says, bet not. I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna run away, far away. But he doesn't know

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Speaker 1: he's adopted. Where does he wind up in another town?

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Speaker 1: What's he do? Kills his dad, marries his mom. I

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Speaker 1: don't know why that wolverine story made me think of that.

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Speaker 1: So we're gonna get into all We're gonna get into

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Speaker 1: um way into wolverines. I've been looking forward to this

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Speaker 1: for a long time. We'll sitting crimin ile sitting talk

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Speaker 1: about what would be the best animal to have. Someone

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Speaker 1: that knows a lot about said animal coming right, and

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Speaker 1: we'll we'll we'll reject animals. What do we reject? Recently?

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Speaker 1: Wasn't sexy enough for us? Well, we hit Mountain lions

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Speaker 1: a bunch. I was like, do you want panther jaguar?

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Speaker 1: And you were like a little less, Um, what was

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Speaker 1: the one that he's too? Well? I was into. You

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Speaker 1: were like that's just not sexy enough. Um, Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: wanted to do one like on Marmots or something like that.

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Speaker 1: I was like, no, I don't think it was Marmots.

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Speaker 1: We should just go through the mart No. Maybe, no,

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Speaker 1: I think it was Martin. No, no, no, no, no, no, no,

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Speaker 1: I think it was No. I think you were like

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Speaker 1: in shaping now shopping him. We got we're thinking about beavers.

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Speaker 1: Beaver a beaver biologist. No, she's a historian. While I

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Speaker 1: was in in Nashville at the Turkey convention that there's

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Speaker 1: some people pointing their fingers directly at the fisher cat

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Speaker 1: in Maine as to why the turkey populations are declining there.

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Speaker 1: I'll buy it there's a lot Chamber. Mike Chamber said, no,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't think so. Um Man, I'll report right now.

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Speaker 1: I was telling you guys, I'm covered in poison ivy,

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Speaker 1: which I was telling Brodi I didn't get real serious

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Speaker 1: about climate change now because to get poison ivy in

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Speaker 1: Michigan in February is unheard of. Yeah, I wish we

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Speaker 1: could drow up a visual for people. It's bad. And

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Speaker 1: here's the thing. Let me tell you. Yeah, well, zones,

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Speaker 1: So it's clearing up on my face. That's getting better here.

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Speaker 1: Oh that looks like the should I have my hands

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Speaker 1: the other week? Yeah, but it's not. So here's the deal.

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Speaker 1: We're hunting squirrels and zuck guy zuck. He for some

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Speaker 1: reason he had what he was like admiring the haft

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Speaker 1: of a big fox squirrel okay, which he called which

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Speaker 1: it annoys the hell out of me. He calls him

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Speaker 1: red squirrels, which confuses everybody because that's another word for

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Speaker 1: a pine squirrels. No one knows anybody's talking about that.

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Speaker 1: They don't have pies. I know they're like, you guys

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Speaker 1: call them something else. But down here, these big old

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Speaker 1: red squirrels, I'm like yeah, but they're not. They're fox

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Speaker 1: squirrels anyways, So he lays one. He had one laid

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Speaker 1: like on his arm, you know, and he gets he

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Speaker 1: I I have I'm like a twenty four hour delay

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Speaker 1: on poison ivy. But he gets it fast and he's like, man,

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Speaker 1: that's poison ivvy on my arm. I'm like, that can't

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Speaker 1: be poison ivy. He's like, man, I've had poison ivy

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Speaker 1: enough times. No, because they got on him and he

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Speaker 1: transferred from the squirrel because here's what he was telling me,

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Speaker 1: he's seen it that he sees this happen, you know,

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Speaker 1: the vines. So they're nesting, they're getting ready to nest

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Speaker 1: right now. No, he says, they gather that. Oh, they

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Speaker 1: gather that and line their nests with it this time

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Speaker 1: of year. So those suckers must be Oh yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: sure they're immune. So clean and squirrels, man, well did

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Speaker 1: you see it coming? Nothing like this has ever happened. Finally,

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Speaker 1: today it was the first day I haven't developed new spots. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: My wife thinks I'm like a lapper. I'm like, dude,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't work like that, you know. My question is, um, like,

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Speaker 1: did you shove one inside your shirt like how because

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Speaker 1: you get the oil on you and you just whatever

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Speaker 1: you do go to scratch. Like here, my forehead was

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Speaker 1: the first thing that got bad, just because rubbing it

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Speaker 1: on there. Yea. And that eurissiol can be um basically

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Speaker 1: like vaporized, I think, is there. I've gotten it in

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Speaker 1: my lungs and burnout. Yeah yeah, but it really sick

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Speaker 1: if you get it like on your wrists and ankles

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Speaker 1: and then you sweat, just that heat can actually carry

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Speaker 1: that uh that oil like up through your pant legs,

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Speaker 1: because how and how else do you literally get on

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Speaker 1: the inside of your thighs That's where I got it

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Speaker 1: anywhere where your skin, anywhere on your body where you

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Speaker 1: got real shitty skin, like thin, hasty, shitty skin, like

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Speaker 1: between your fingers. It's just my whole body. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I feel he'd be like right under like underneath your feet. No,

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Speaker 1: never there in between your fingers, inside the arch, not

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Speaker 1: the it's not the kind of shitty things. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: had running with poison oak one time, and it was

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Speaker 1: all inner thighs and like my stomach. It was just thin,

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Speaker 1: shitty areas on your hide. And that's not the first

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Speaker 1: time you've gotten it via another animal. No, I got it.

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Speaker 1: The worst I've ever gotten was from a wild pig

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Speaker 1: that landed me in the hospital, and I wound up

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Speaker 1: in a Jewish hospital. And the last thing the doctor

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Speaker 1: said to me when she's walking out the door, I'm

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Speaker 1: not kidding you. I'm not joking. She's walking out the

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Speaker 1: door and she turns and says, stay away from pigs. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I when I told the story, she's kind of like,

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Speaker 1: what the fucking thing's gonna happen? But now you're a

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Speaker 1: climate No, this is what you know, like Nimby, like

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Speaker 1: not in my backyard. Yeah, this is what This is

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Speaker 1: my wake up call? Man, um So, Yanni, real quick

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Speaker 1: hit that owl hoot. Yanni was just at an owl

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Speaker 1: hoot and explain this now. I was at the National

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Speaker 1: Turkey Federation's annual convention down in Nashville, Tennessee, and unfortunately,

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Speaker 1: the only competent calling competition that I got to go

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Speaker 1: and watch was the owl Hoot and the Gobble because

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Speaker 1: it was later in the evening. We were recording turkey

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Speaker 1: stories from nine to four every day. We got forty

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Speaker 1: one serious was Phil? Phil did he go to the

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Speaker 1: Tiki Barn? Downer. Oh yeah, I say you had the

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Speaker 1: picture of us at the tiki bar. I didn't get that,

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Speaker 1: which is very It's not the normal tiki bar. This

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Speaker 1: place is like robot themed, and instead of having Jimmy

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Speaker 1: Buffett playing, it's got Furgie playing. And the next table

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Speaker 1: down to has had some twenty year old gals standing

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Speaker 1: up apping Furgie at full capacity. I was quite entertained

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Speaker 1: that we ran into a lady with a pet possum

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Speaker 1: or something. That's right, it must have been a different place.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how we got crowd there. Yeah, we

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Speaker 1: got I don't know how we got on the subject

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Speaker 1: with her, but she had had a pet possum. AnyWho, Um,

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Speaker 1: we got forty one. It was cool. I was telling

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Speaker 1: you a story from Mike Chamberlain. It was pretty interesting. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I want you to touch on that. I want you

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Speaker 1: to touch on that turkey call in your hand. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: the the air and friction contests were going on during

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Speaker 1: the day, so I didn't get to go and check

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Speaker 1: those out, but one evening we went and checked out

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Speaker 1: Ala hooting and then gobbling. I was surprised to find

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Speaker 1: out out of the thirty six competitors for ali hooting,

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Speaker 1: only one uses natural voice. Everybody else is running a hooter, Like,

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Speaker 1: I can't believe that you're allowed to use I can't

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Speaker 1: believe that you'd be allowed to use a hooter. That's

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Speaker 1: That's Yanni's train of thought too. They were, um, and

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Speaker 1: I was surprised that they didn't have both, but they said,

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Speaker 1: it literally just comes down to participation. They said, we

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Speaker 1: could open up a voice calling out hooting, you know section, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and just nobody would be in there. He just and

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Speaker 1: it's only recent the last ten years, ten to fifteen,

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Speaker 1: I think these were developed, and they just sound so

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Speaker 1: much more realistic that the voice guys can't compete with

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Speaker 1: the with the hooter. But yeah, I felt the same

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Speaker 1: way even with the with the gobbling. I thought that,

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Speaker 1: you know, because when we were recording stories, we had

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Speaker 1: some great storytellers that could gobble, you know, within their story,

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Speaker 1: and it just brings so much the story. Yeah, yeah, definitely,

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Speaker 1: maybe a little better. HER's still a little high pitched,

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Speaker 1: you know, but uh anyways, um, yeah, I was surprised

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Speaker 1: to not hear voice callers. Um, so there's a Phelps

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Speaker 1: game calls now has a thing called out the Harrison

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Speaker 1: hooter and I didn't even know when I'm watching James

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Speaker 1: Harrison on stage that I didn't put two and two together,

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Speaker 1: that the hooters that were at my house that I

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Speaker 1: was trying to blow on and it didn't even sound

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Speaker 1: like a train whistle. And my wife's like, please put

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Speaker 1: those away. Stop, you're not making owl sounds. I'm watching him,

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Speaker 1: and then later I run into him at the show.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, Phelps t shirt, Oh okay, and I

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Speaker 1: put two and two together, and then he ran through

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Speaker 1: and gave me the one oh one who who had

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Speaker 1: the bear grease hat on? That was another competitor. I

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Speaker 1: didn't run into him, but he was using a mouth call, yes,

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Speaker 1: like a hooter like this, and he very likely was

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Speaker 1: using this one because out of thirty six competitors, ten

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Speaker 1: or twelve we're actually running the Harrison Hood, not the crylic.

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Speaker 1: You know, some of them um tape it all up

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Speaker 1: in black electrical tape so that the other competitors can't

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Speaker 1: see what call they're usually. I like it. He said

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Speaker 1: that even some of them will add like another four

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Speaker 1: or five inches. It doesn't do any not for any

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Speaker 1: other room, and just to throw people off to what call.

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Speaker 1: There one of the East Coast goose tutors. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: i'll be probably by the time this airs, I'll have

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Speaker 1: posted a video. James Harrison given me the one on

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Speaker 1: one on how to use it, and yeah, there's a

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Speaker 1: couple of great tips. The best tip though, he said,

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Speaker 1: when you hold it, you make like an okay symbol

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Speaker 1: with the one hand that you're gonna hold the call with,

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Speaker 1: and then your other hand comes around. You want to

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Speaker 1: cut the bottom of the call, as if holding a

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Speaker 1: baby chicken. A chick. I'm with you, right, so it's

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Speaker 1: head sticking out of your hands. You're controlling it, but

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Speaker 1: you're not squishing it, right, so a little bit of

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Speaker 1: air can get out. After that, you make the same notes.

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Speaker 1: Who cooks for you? Who cooks for you? All? Um?

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Speaker 1: Rip it. I got a lot to tell you about

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Speaker 1: this because we're I've got on order coming. You might

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Speaker 1: already have it. The piliated woodpecker call that can that

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Speaker 1: can also sound like the screech or the scream of

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Speaker 1: a bard owl. Yeah, yeah, that gets them god one

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Speaker 1: you think so? Yeah, I mean it's the stuff that

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Speaker 1: you like. It's super loud and super high. Their goblin

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Speaker 1: because I don't think their goblin because they think it

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Speaker 1: sounded exactly like an owl. No, no, no no, but it's

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Speaker 1: a sound that just carries. That's what Chamberlain out of

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Speaker 1: study his point when I brought up your point that

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Speaker 1: you always make, which is what you just said, his point,

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Speaker 1: He's like, yes, but if you sound like a real owl,

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Speaker 1: you might get other owls going on other ridges that

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Speaker 1: are then reaching turkeys that your sound, whatever you decided

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Speaker 1: to use, is not reaching. And thus you're sort of

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Speaker 1: being able to broadcast farther and possibly hear other turkeys.

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Speaker 1: Pretty soon the whole county's got and then everybody else

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Speaker 1: is gonna get all the turkeys waking up the woods. Um,

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Speaker 1: all right, here it goes. So there's your little chick

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Speaker 1: Harrison hooter. This is a Phelps Harrison hooter. Yeah. I

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Speaker 1: like that little role in the end, But now do

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Speaker 1: it with no call. I have a hard time rolling

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Speaker 1: for whatever reason. Again, it does sound better at the call.

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Speaker 1: The do a far off out buhicle for everybody is

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Speaker 1: the out way off. I want to do this often.

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be one. So far you're not even

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Speaker 1: gonna go over there. That's too cool. I'd go after that,

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Speaker 1: they'll just turn the volume down. Um, okay, go ahead.

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Speaker 1: That well, I could keep blowing on that thing, but

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Speaker 1: real quick, the uh chamber, doctor chamber, the unkillable turkey.

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Speaker 1: Can you hit that real quick for us? I will,

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Speaker 1: and I'll go to say too that it was cool.

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Speaker 1: Out of forty one stories, it was great to start

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Speaker 1: recognizing the different themes that flowed through these stories, and

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Speaker 1: not just because it's a theme of stories that people

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Speaker 1: like to tell, but what people think is important or

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Speaker 1: important to them to come and tell you about. It's

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Speaker 1: a lot of first timers, a lot of first time

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Speaker 1: turkey stories, a lot of mentorship stories, a lot of

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Speaker 1: family type stories. You know, I was out with my

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Speaker 1: kids or my kid whatever, I took my dad first first,

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Speaker 1: and the one that got away or the unkillable turkey,

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Speaker 1: or one fella called this bird the boss, which we've

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Speaker 1: heard before. But anyways, Yeah, Mike had a story and

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Speaker 1: I'll summarize it quickly, but basically, this turkey he thinks

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Speaker 1: cannot be killed because he's developed a tactic whereas he

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Speaker 1: comes closer, as he realizes that he's being fooled with,

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Speaker 1: he'll actually fly up into trees out of shotgun range.

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Speaker 1: And then hot from tree to tree, or sit on

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Speaker 1: one limb, walking back and forth and looking for the

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Speaker 1: hand that is supposed to be there. And then once

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Speaker 1: he says, once he clears it out and there's no

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Speaker 1: hen just pitches and flies off the other direction. I

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Speaker 1: don't know, and you're a shout of turkey. Alabat tree. Yes,

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Speaker 1: fall in Nebraska. I don't even know if it was legal,

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Speaker 1: but I did blood lust. I haven't missed one, so

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Speaker 1: I tried. Um, there's a couple of hard things I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna talk about. No, we talking about that. Oh, here's

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Speaker 1: an interesting deal. We have covered none stop since since

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Speaker 1: the beginning, the why the famous now Wyoming corner crossing case,

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Speaker 1: and as we pointed out, a whole bunch. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to recap. I don't want to recap the whole thing.

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Speaker 1: Don't recap. Everybody knows what's going on, right, Okay, here's

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Speaker 1: the deal. How many millions did the landowners say his

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Speaker 1: property value went down because these guys corner crossed down?

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Speaker 1: Three or seven million? Yeah, I think it was six

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Speaker 1: or seven. He's saying, because you corner crossed on my land,

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Speaker 1: you cost me. Let's look it up. Let me look

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Speaker 1: it up six or seven million bucks m because he

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Speaker 1: felt that he felt that he had the exclusive access

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Speaker 1: and now he doesn't. And then everybody was like, well,

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Speaker 1: I don't understand how could that, Like, why would someone

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Speaker 1: corner crossing um cost you millions of dollars right and damages?

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Speaker 1: It just didn't make sense. Well, there's an interesting development

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Speaker 1: in this case, now, Judge scav Doll ska v d

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Speaker 1: A H. L. Scave Doll, I don't know cloes it off.

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Speaker 1: Can I interject for a second. Yeah, I'm seeing ranges

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Speaker 1: from three point one million to seven point seven five million. Another. Uh,

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Speaker 1: seems like a real estate agent was saying on behalf

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Speaker 1: of Elk Mountain Ranch that it would be devalued about

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Speaker 1: nine point three nine million, so a lot, I think.

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Speaker 1: In our article on the mediator dot com says the

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Speaker 1: um the ram Schoner was claiming as much as seven

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Speaker 1: point seven five millions. Yeah, if you're unfamiliar with this

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Speaker 1: whole read that and that's my synopsis. Well, here's the deal.

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Speaker 1: You know who this guy really should the landowner, who

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Speaker 1: his complaint is. He should be contacting the real estate

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Speaker 1: broker like it's not the he should be calling the

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Speaker 1: listing agent saying because we saw the listing when he

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Speaker 1: bought it, saying, you're real estate listing UM says that

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Speaker 1: it's exclusive access to all this public land. So or

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Speaker 1: his attorney, who's supposed to vet and due diligence, that's

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Speaker 1: who's that's who cost him money. That's who led him

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Speaker 1: down the path of thinking that all this public land

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Speaker 1: was his and his alone. That's true. Like he's suing

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Speaker 1: the wrong person either way. The judge, the whelming judge

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Speaker 1: ruled okay, Judge scabbed all. Sorry judge from dicking your

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Speaker 1: name up. Judge scave Doll ruled the evidence of diminution

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Speaker 1: of value of private property if corner crossing is legal,

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Speaker 1: is irrelevant, meaning the court will focus solely on the

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Speaker 1: issue of whether corner crossing is legal, not whether legalized

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Speaker 1: corner crossing will affect the value of private property. I

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Speaker 1: mean that makes total sense. It's two different things. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's like, he's getting way ahead of himself to be

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Speaker 1: like and I'm out seven million dollars. Yeah, but because

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Speaker 1: he like, because the criminal case just said we didn't

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Speaker 1: break a law, So you're saying I owe you money

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Speaker 1: and I need to break a law. Usually when I

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Speaker 1: summed this up, I usually use the story about the

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Speaker 1: juice when he um got acquitted for killing his wife

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Speaker 1: and that waiter, but then in civil trial got found guilty.

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Speaker 1: But I'm not cad becas we're not gonna sum it up.

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Speaker 1: Um we had a law. So this this letter begins.

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Speaker 1: We get a letter from a listener, ohmigos. We're having

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Speaker 1: tough We're a conversation about why refried like what makes

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Speaker 1: refried beans refried beans? But it wasn't. Also, it was

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Speaker 1: like stemming off the fact that we had people write

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Speaker 1: in about like when you put the prefix in front

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Speaker 1: of like dry curing something and people are like, no,

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Speaker 1: you're just putting rub on it. He he does like

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Speaker 1: all those food terms. And then we got talking about

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Speaker 1: with refried beans, Like my understanding is they're not refried,

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Speaker 1: they're fried. They're fried. Yeah, this guy has a lot

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Speaker 1: to say about it. My name is Adrian Martin and

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Speaker 1: I'm a second generation Mexican American. Both my parents were

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Speaker 1: born in Mexico and immigrated over to what is now

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Speaker 1: the People's Republic of Washington. Abakan first generation Halma. Both

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Speaker 1: his parents are born in Mexico first generation. Sorry, buddy,

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Speaker 1: that makes his material. That makes his information more relevant.

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Speaker 1: It does not what less relevant. He says, I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: have a bean eater myself. I believe that with my background,

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Speaker 1: I can provide some insight to the recent refried bean dilemma.

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Speaker 1: Here's my take on it. Refried beans come about from

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Speaker 1: first boiling beans until soft. He prefers pinto beans. He says,

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Speaker 1: as a parenthetical aside, back to the quote, you take

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Speaker 1: those beans and fry them for the first time in

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Speaker 1: some kind of oil and smashing them until you get

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Speaker 1: desired consistency. Another parenthetical aside, I prefer using olive oil

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Speaker 1: that has had a halopeno cooking in it for five

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Speaker 1: to ten minutes prior to adding to the beans doesn't large.

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Speaker 1: But then he breaks from his parenthetical aside to say

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Speaker 1: leave the halopeno in there with the beans, which I

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Speaker 1: feel it should be part of the parent going on.

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Speaker 1: You can eat these quote fried beans at this point,

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Speaker 1: and most of the Mexicans I know referred to the

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Speaker 1: beans at this point as refried beans. However, you could

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Speaker 1: also let those beans sit in the fridge overnight and

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Speaker 1: proceed to fry the fried beans with a little bit

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Speaker 1: of oil and eat them that way as well. Technically speaking,

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Speaker 1: only then would they become refried beans. You could repeat

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Speaker 1: the refrying process a couple more times, but usually I

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Speaker 1: eat them all by the second fried. You could create

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Speaker 1: an evolutionary chart of beans becoming refried beans. The stages

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Speaker 1: would go something like hard beans to boiled beans, to

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Speaker 1: fried beans, to refried beans to refried refried beans. Truth

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Speaker 1: be told, I've had beans refried up to three times

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Speaker 1: a four and air pretty good, but I prefer a

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Speaker 1: true refried bean. Audios That clears that up. Do we

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Speaker 1: need a new T shirt? The evolution of the ban?

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Speaker 1: It would be good? Okay. A little clarification on scorpions.

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Speaker 1: Someone says, I was listening to episode four when three

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Speaker 1: in a question came up about whether or not smaller

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Speaker 1: scorpions are really more dangerous. Steve didn't seem to believe it,

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Speaker 1: but in general it is true. Here's where I screwed up.

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Speaker 1: I got there's a couple of these. I screwed up

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Speaker 1: this and another thing. What I meant was this, I

400
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: was mixing up two things. They're talking what is it?

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Speaker 1: When is it? What is it? When they're talking about

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Speaker 1: across different species intra uka within a species. Okay. When

403
00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,320
Speaker 1: I said that about bigger littler, I was talking about

404
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Speaker 1: this idea that let's say you take the same rattlesnake. Okay,

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Speaker 1: you take a prairie rattler or green mojave or whatever,

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Speaker 1: any kind of rattlesnake, and there's a myth, there's a

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Speaker 1: there's a local legend that that within the species. Okay,

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Speaker 1: So a prairie rattler, that a smaller prairie rattler is

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Speaker 1: more venomous than a big prairie rattler. And they say

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Speaker 1: because it somehow can't control the venom output. And herpetologists

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Speaker 1: have repeatedly written in to say that's not true. Toxicity

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Speaker 1: would have to do with when did it last strike something? Okay, Okay,

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Speaker 1: So when this came up, like a big scorpion versus

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Speaker 1: a little scorpion, I pointed that out, and I was

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Speaker 1: erroneously meaning like within a species. So say you're taking

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Speaker 1: the northern scorpion. I was saying, I don't know that

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Speaker 1: I believe that a small northern scorpion is more venomous

418
00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: than a fully mature, larger specimen of a northern scorpion.

419
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,560
Speaker 1: But this person wrote in to say, well, in general,

420
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:04,240
Speaker 1: first off, there are twelve hundred scorpion species. In general,

421
00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 1: you got some big honkers. The Emperor scorpion okay, relatively hard.

422
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:17,560
Speaker 1: That's a giant scorpion, relatively harmless. While the much smaller

423
00:26:17,720 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 1: death stalker scorpion that's a hell of a name. Yeah, yeah,

424
00:26:23,800 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 1: I would call him the death deal. Yeah, he stalks.

425
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:36,359
Speaker 1: He's so bad. He stalks death the death stalkers. He says,

426
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,840
Speaker 1: I've owned two Emperor scorpions. You can handle them without

427
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 1: a glove, but I'd never try that with a fat

428
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 1: tail or a death stalker. Um. So generally, big old honkers, um,

429
00:26:53,960 --> 00:26:58,119
Speaker 1: big old honkers are less venomous than some smaller varieties

430
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,040
Speaker 1: scorpions sting more than a million people a year and

431
00:27:01,119 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 1: kill three thousand, not phelps. Do we know what kind

432
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: of scorpion he got stung by because you guys like

433
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: kept it as a pet. How's that scorpion doing? Okay?

434
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 1: The guy goes on to say, in Indiana Jones and

435
00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:18,920
Speaker 1: the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull, I gave up on

436
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:25,320
Speaker 1: Indiana just long before. When was that? I only was

437
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:27,920
Speaker 1: the fourth one that it's yeah, it's bad. I think

438
00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 1: they had lost a lot of audience by then, he says.

439
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:35,720
Speaker 1: Indy says, when it comes to scorpion, the bigger the better.

440
00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 1: Indy has a scientific evidence to back him up. Uh,

441
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:49,400
Speaker 1: anything else interesting? Here? Last highlight about the evolutionary trade off.

442
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 1: It's pretty interesting. Oh, but I think we got into

443
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:54,480
Speaker 1: this when we had the guy. Remember that research we

444
00:27:54,560 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: had on about animal weapons Doug Emlyn. Oh, good memory. Gosh, yeah,

445
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,000
Speaker 1: is it dogma? The findings point to an evolutionary trade off.

446
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:14,440
Speaker 1: They're talking about a researcher name Fry, some guy or

447
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:19,480
Speaker 1: a woman. I don't know Fry. When scorpions first appeared,

448
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: scorpions relied on big crab like clause to attack prey,

449
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 1: he speculates, But once they evolved a deadly sting, they

450
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: didn't need to grow big clause. Yeah, we're we're a

451
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: little inn over at waiters now on that one. We

452
00:28:32,440 --> 00:28:36,680
Speaker 1: have to get the thing. Here's my big correction. I

453
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:38,840
Speaker 1: have a bunch of times of misuses. To someone point

454
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:41,680
Speaker 1: this out, I need to offer up a correction on

455
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:44,200
Speaker 1: the use of the on the on the usage of

456
00:28:44,240 --> 00:28:50,480
Speaker 1: the founder effect. Steve Is multiple times on the podcast

457
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,600
Speaker 1: referred to this effect as new animals doing well in

458
00:28:53,640 --> 00:28:58,120
Speaker 1: a new environment. I was mixing something up. I can't

459
00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: think of what I was actually talk let me finish

460
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,720
Speaker 1: the crack. While it's possible that this could be happening

461
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 1: concurrently with the Founder effect, isn't the same thing. The

462
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: Founder effect is basically basically a statistical misrepresentation of a

463
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:14,959
Speaker 1: population by taking only a few members of that species

464
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: to found a new population. For example, let's say there's

465
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:23,240
Speaker 1: a population of black bears and the continental US that

466
00:29:23,480 --> 00:29:26,560
Speaker 1: is ninety five percent black with five percent blind. He goes,

467
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:28,800
Speaker 1: I don't know the real numbers, but just making this up. Okay,

468
00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:33,000
Speaker 1: So let's just say, right then, three bears swim to

469
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: a new island and start a new population of black bears,

470
00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:40,160
Speaker 1: and two of them happen to be blond. So like

471
00:29:40,200 --> 00:29:44,800
Speaker 1: a freak statistical freak occurrence. Right now, you've got this

472
00:29:44,840 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 1: whole population that starts off of an atypical representation, and

473
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 1: then the founder effect the new population winds up being.

474
00:29:56,760 --> 00:29:59,240
Speaker 1: In this instance, he points out, possibly the new population

475
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:04,000
Speaker 1: becomes largely blonde due to the attributes of the founders.

476
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: I was using it for something that Vlarious Geiss used

477
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,320
Speaker 1: to talk about which is like like I should look

478
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 1: up what it is when when animals are colonizing new habitat,

479
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 1: like when the when the glaciers were receding and animals

480
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:23,959
Speaker 1: are colonizing new habitat, you have um you know, or

481
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: like when you introduce a predator to like, let say

482
00:30:25,960 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: you introduce a predator an island has never had predators,

483
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: and the praise not used to it, right, they kick

484
00:30:30,800 --> 00:30:34,160
Speaker 1: ass is bringing it like when wolves came into Yellowstone

485
00:30:34,160 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 1: in the late nineties. They kicks or it's founding, do

486
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: you know. I don't know the technical word for it,

487
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:41,480
Speaker 1: but there is a you know, a kind of like

488
00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: a colonization or recalonization effect. Wherefore a while, if you

489
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:48,040
Speaker 1: introduce a new species to a place, they will like

490
00:30:48,200 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: their population will go like this and then eventually plateau

491
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 1: very quickly and then plateau like this place is great. Yeah,

492
00:30:55,560 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: the animals don't run. There's a lot of them, uh,

493
00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:04,360
Speaker 1: he says, for example, the Afrikaner population of just that's

494
00:31:04,400 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 1: just an aside that I just did a little bit

495
00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: of googling, So that wasn't him that this is like

496
00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:15,480
Speaker 1: from UC Berkeley's Department of evolution rim talking. The African

497
00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:19,200
Speaker 1: or population of Dutch settlers in South Africa is descended

498
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: mainly from a few colonists. Today, the Afrikaner population has

499
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:28,960
Speaker 1: an unusually high frequency of the gene that causes Huntington's

500
00:31:29,000 --> 00:31:34,480
Speaker 1: disease because those original Dutch colonists just happened to carry

501
00:31:34,520 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 1: that gene with unusually high frequency. This effect is easy

502
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,280
Speaker 1: to recognize in genetic diseases, but of course the frequencies

503
00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: of all sorts of genes are affected by founder events.

504
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:49,480
Speaker 1: That's interesting. This is why our wolves here are so

505
00:31:49,640 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: big and bad because when they trapped a remember they

506
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:55,680
Speaker 1: trapped fifty and chose the biggest, meanest ones to bring

507
00:31:55,800 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: the Yellowstone. We even heard from a guy they'd go

508
00:31:57,880 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: in and he was telling us they'd poke them with

509
00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 1: a stick, pick the mean victim, meanest mask, not mean enough,

510
00:32:05,000 --> 00:32:10,160
Speaker 1: Let that one go. Don't send him that one. It's

511
00:32:10,240 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: not mean enough. When he smiled at me when we

512
00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:25,040
Speaker 1: poke them with a stick, he wasn't mean enough. Okay.

513
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 1: The Wolverine Foundation, yes, tell me what the Wolverine Foundation

514
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: is for starters. So back in nineteen ninety six, all

515
00:32:34,360 --> 00:32:37,120
Speaker 1: of the wolverine biologists in the entire world, which was

516
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: like probably five people you know, got together and they

517
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 1: were really looking for a way to raise the profile

518
00:32:43,680 --> 00:32:48,360
Speaker 1: of this veryly poorly understood, poorly studied species, and you know,

519
00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 1: in order to raise money and in order to raise awareness,

520
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:55,080
Speaker 1: they started the Wolverine Foundation. And they've run it as

521
00:32:55,200 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 1: an organization that does education and outreach and also gets

522
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: pretty small grants in the in the world of like

523
00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: you know, grant making up to like maybe twenty thousand

524
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: dollars at the most to help facilitate wolverine research projects.

525
00:33:11,400 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: UM I took over in twenty fifteen, and um it's

526
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:18,479
Speaker 1: still a very small organization and continue to run it.

527
00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: Run it primarily as a small grant making organization and

528
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:26,080
Speaker 1: then again like outreach and education, So coming onto podcasts,

529
00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: traveling to universities to give lectures and uh, you know,

530
00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 1: just generally raising awareness about this amazing species. You come

531
00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 1: on a lot of podcasts. I've been on two, and

532
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,840
Speaker 1: I've never had one that officially has like a recording

533
00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,840
Speaker 1: studio before. So this is a new and fascinating experience.

534
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: Let's get jealous. UM are you affiliated with a university?

535
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:52,160
Speaker 1: Though no, neither as an individual nor as a Wolverine Foundation,

536
00:33:52,240 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: we are we are an independent of five one C

537
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:57,360
Speaker 1: three nonprofit, but you work within you probably work with

538
00:33:57,600 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 1: university people. Yes, So it works is if you the

539
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 1: interested public happens to have a wolverine project, and that

540
00:34:05,960 --> 00:34:08,920
Speaker 1: can be a graduate project, some kind of academic project,

541
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: an agency project, or a project that's run through a nonprofit,

542
00:34:13,840 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 1: you can write a grant application to us and then

543
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:21,479
Speaker 1: we will review it and potentially grant funds. So yeah,

544
00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: a lot of the people who we grant funds too,

545
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 1: are actually affiliated with universities or with agencies like the

546
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:32,280
Speaker 1: Forest Service or you know, nonprofit organizations. But we ourselves

547
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: once we give the money. We can still serve in

548
00:34:34,480 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: an advisory capacity if the people running the project want that,

549
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:41,200
Speaker 1: but we don't. We're not like actually involved in the

550
00:34:41,239 --> 00:34:44,680
Speaker 1: field work once we make the grants. Yeah, yeah, explain.

551
00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,479
Speaker 1: I know that Mongolia played a big role in your

552
00:34:48,840 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: resume and your sort of genesis as a Wolverine person. Yeah,

553
00:34:52,160 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 1: so that's my personal story and it's a little bit

554
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,600
Speaker 1: aside from the Wolverine Foundation, But I was a Peace

555
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,120
Speaker 1: Corp volunteer in Mongolia from two thousand to two thous

556
00:35:00,120 --> 00:35:05,200
Speaker 1: In two and Peace Corps. Peace Corp is a great program.

557
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 1: It's what you make of it. But in like the

558
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:11,040
Speaker 1: infinite wisdom of like bureaucracy. I had an undergraduate degree

559
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 1: in anthropology and I had been like sort of involved

560
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 1: with the environmental organization on campus, and they were like, great,

561
00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 1: we're going to make you into an ecology teacher. I'd

562
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 1: never take an ecology class in my life. So they

563
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:28,320
Speaker 1: sent me out to this town in central Mongolia. The

564
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 1: Peace Corps wanted you to be an ecology teacher. Yes, yes,

565
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,240
Speaker 1: I mean I thought you guys mostly like delivered vaccinations

566
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:40,200
Speaker 1: and water stuff and no, no, I think that in

567
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: probably at the closer to the founding of the Peace Corps,

568
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:47,080
Speaker 1: it was more of that like humanitarian aid type of organization.

569
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: But by the time I went, they, you know, Mongolia

570
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:54,319
Speaker 1: was coming out of seventy years of socialism and they

571
00:35:54,320 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: were trying to bring their educational system up to speed,

572
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 1: and they had all of these national parks that they

573
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 1: had just founded. A lot of environmental organizations had gone there,

574
00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,120
Speaker 1: and they were trying to work with the Mongolian government

575
00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 1: to set aside a land to be protected in a

576
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:13,440
Speaker 1: sort of in the system of landscape protection and conservation

577
00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,320
Speaker 1: that we're more familiar with as opposed to sort of

578
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,879
Speaker 1: the Soviet model that they had been working under. And

579
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:23,760
Speaker 1: so they wanted to reorganize their ecology and biology education

580
00:36:23,880 --> 00:36:27,720
Speaker 1: program within the schools, and so they decided Peace Corps

581
00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: matched me up with a town that had requested a

582
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:33,640
Speaker 1: school in a town that had requested somebody to help

583
00:36:33,680 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 1: work on both English teaching and also on refining their

584
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 1: biology curriculum and retraining their biology teachers to incorporate ecology

585
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,799
Speaker 1: into the curriculum. So I went over there. I was

586
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: there for two years, and in my spare time in

587
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:53,439
Speaker 1: the summers when school wasn't in session, I started kind

588
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:58,359
Speaker 1: of volunteering with snow uppord research programs. So I would

589
00:36:58,360 --> 00:37:01,880
Speaker 1: go out and help do snowuppord surveys for the animals

590
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 1: themselves and also for prey species ibex in our Golly,

591
00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: did you ever lay eyes on a snow leppard? I did,

592
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,480
Speaker 1: but not um, not, not while I was a Peace

593
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: Corps volunteer. It was, yeah, it was in twenty seventeen.

594
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: I was on a UM assisting with a snow leopard

595
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: collaring operation in the Altaie and we uh trapped two

596
00:37:19,680 --> 00:37:22,160
Speaker 1: snow leopards and collared them. So it trapped them out

597
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:25,919
Speaker 1: with legs snares. Um really and you got to see them?

598
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I got to like how, how like what

599
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:30,680
Speaker 1: what do they what do they use for a set?

600
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 1: It's a it's like a it's a wire snare ye

601
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,600
Speaker 1: and then um you uh, I think you it's on

602
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,160
Speaker 1: a spring lock, right, it's I don't. I didn't actually

603
00:37:42,239 --> 00:37:45,239
Speaker 1: set the snares, so I can't. I'm trying to remember how.

604
00:37:45,320 --> 00:37:47,640
Speaker 1: And it wasn't my project either, so I wasn't reminding

605
00:37:47,680 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: you as in charge of doing it. I was actually

606
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,080
Speaker 1: there to try to set up cameras for camera trapping

607
00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,520
Speaker 1: wolverines and then went along with these these two snow

608
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,799
Speaker 1: Leppard captures. Um. So it's a leg snare. You bury

609
00:37:58,840 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: it in the um in the kind of talis and

610
00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 1: then you spray. For whatever reason, snow Leppards are like

611
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 1: really attracted to high quality perfume. Oh yeah, remember we're

612
00:38:09,480 --> 00:38:11,919
Speaker 1: talking about this before they found some. I can't remember.

613
00:38:12,000 --> 00:38:15,160
Speaker 1: There's some. There's some clone or perfume that's like kill

614
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 1: around cats. The Chanel number five. Yeah, we had a

615
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,959
Speaker 1: news article about that. We covered one obsession for men

616
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,600
Speaker 1: Calvin Klein. So like when I'm when I figured that out,

617
00:38:26,840 --> 00:38:29,839
Speaker 1: I think they did it was snow leppers in the zoo. Um.

618
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,920
Speaker 1: But like, yeah, when I'm when I'm doing camera trapping

619
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:34,719
Speaker 1: for snow leppards, which I have done, you know, you're

620
00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: in the back country of Mongolia, you haven't showered for

621
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:39,319
Speaker 1: like two weeks, and you reek of like very very

622
00:38:39,400 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: high quality perfume crawling around like putting up your your

623
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: camera traps and then like spraying rocks with like eighty

624
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,320
Speaker 1: dollars worth of you know. So that's what like, Okay,

625
00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:53,759
Speaker 1: so when you're setting a camera trap for uh, for

626
00:38:53,880 --> 00:38:57,280
Speaker 1: a snow Leppard, you're not hanging like a road kill carcass.

627
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,440
Speaker 1: You can just use just perfume. Yeah, get into their

628
00:39:00,560 --> 00:39:02,640
Speaker 1: camp and bring it into the camera. Yeah yeah, and

629
00:39:02,680 --> 00:39:06,920
Speaker 1: then um, I don't know how like effective this was,

630
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: but you know snow leopards also scrape, so if you

631
00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:12,680
Speaker 1: you know they do that little paw yeah to I

632
00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:15,239
Speaker 1: do with their hind legs. My other role on that

633
00:39:15,280 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 1: snow Leppard coloring expedition was to be the scraping snow leopard,

634
00:39:18,440 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 1: so they would they would make me do all the

635
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,560
Speaker 1: scrapes um by the snares to get to get the

636
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: snow leppard to like come in and be like, oh,

637
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:27,400
Speaker 1: is there another snow leopard here that's marking territory and

638
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: then um put their paw in Nasso's little um. Like

639
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,399
Speaker 1: mountain lions do it like that little remember I usually

640
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,759
Speaker 1: they do with their front foot. But I think it

641
00:39:34,840 --> 00:39:36,960
Speaker 1: is I think some Floyd Green, I think sent Us

642
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,200
Speaker 1: trailcam stuff where the cat does it with his back foot.

643
00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: It's not like after dogs go to the bathroom and

644
00:39:42,840 --> 00:39:45,800
Speaker 1: they kind of like wipe off their feet. It's different

645
00:39:45,840 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: than that. It seems to be some kind of it's

646
00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: like a territorial kind of marker. You can tell what

647
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:53,280
Speaker 1: wait he was. I don't know if this is true,

648
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 1: and I don't know if you do. You guys still

649
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 1: like in the in the in the Mountain lion world,

650
00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: do you still believing tell Us line to travel? Yeah,

651
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 1: that it does it, it leaves, It does it as leaves,

652
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 1: so it kicks his dirt bag it's back. Yeah, there's

653
00:40:05,560 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 1: like a little wall of debris behind it, and he

654
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:12,160
Speaker 1: was going the other stuff. Yeah, so they do that.

655
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:15,040
Speaker 1: The other day when I was it was the last spring.

656
00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: I was with my buddy Jeff Flood, and he pointed

657
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: one out and I was like, oh, yeah, I know

658
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:21,640
Speaker 1: all about that, and I said, yeah, it's going that way,

659
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: or he asked, I said yeah, it's going that way,

660
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:25,799
Speaker 1: and we literally went ten yards and there's another one

661
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: going the other drag and I'm like, well, no, we

662
00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 1: don't know. Changed his mind. Yeah, so, um gosh, what

663
00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: was it? So they had they had him to foot

664
00:40:37,400 --> 00:40:39,960
Speaker 1: snare and then they tranquilized and you got the hold one.

665
00:40:40,000 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: We yeah, we tranquilize them. And then not only did

666
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:44,279
Speaker 1: I get to hold it, but I had to like

667
00:40:44,640 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 1: shove my hand down its throat to attach like the

668
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 1: oxygen monitor to its tongue. So you know, there's that

669
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: like that that moment where you're like, oh my gosh,

670
00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,560
Speaker 1: I have my hands on a snow Leppard. This is

671
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,759
Speaker 1: like the mystical moment of achievement for a wildlife biologist.

672
00:40:56,800 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: And then the person in chargees like grab its tongue

673
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:01,879
Speaker 1: and you're like, what, like actually put my hand down

674
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: its throat and like yeah, and so you're like avoiding

675
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:06,920
Speaker 1: the teeth and trying to like pull the tongue out,

676
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 1: and it's actually a lot harder to get the little

677
00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,480
Speaker 1: monitor attached to unconscious cat's tongue than you would suspect.

678
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:15,040
Speaker 1: And that's just why you're working it up. You got

679
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 1: to do that. Yeah, yeah, you just want to make

680
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:21,160
Speaker 1: sure that you're not going to harm the animal. Oh um,

681
00:41:21,880 --> 00:41:23,319
Speaker 1: oh you had to ask me about an I mean

682
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,480
Speaker 1: it was like inaccessible hundred pounds or it was about

683
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:27,759
Speaker 1: one hundred pounds. Um. The other thing is that we yeah,

684
00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: we had to use my duffel bag because they had

685
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: forgotten the um, you know, the little thing that they

686
00:41:33,280 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: usually used to weigh it. So my my duffel bag

687
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:38,399
Speaker 1: has been retired as like a shrine to the snow

688
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:41,080
Speaker 1: leppard because it's still covered with snow leopard fur. So

689
00:41:41,120 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 1: I just have this duffel bag at home that conscious

690
00:41:43,160 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 1: snow leopard fur in it. And um, yeah, so I

691
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:47,279
Speaker 1: think it was somewhere around one hundred pounds. And it

692
00:41:47,320 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: was a male, a young male that we caught. At first,

693
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:51,760
Speaker 1: he might have weighed a little bit less, and then

694
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:55,000
Speaker 1: the next animal that we caught was his mother, and

695
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,400
Speaker 1: she weighed a little bit more. So she was traveling

696
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,880
Speaker 1: with two um cubs and that we caught one we

697
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,239
Speaker 1: didn't catch the other. So yeah, I was talking these guys.

698
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:06,400
Speaker 1: I think I've told this story before. I'm gonna telegrams.

699
00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 1: I like it. I saw it in these guys that

700
00:42:10,280 --> 00:42:14,120
Speaker 1: they were uh, some green Brays that served in Afghanistan

701
00:42:15,120 --> 00:42:17,919
Speaker 1: and they were doing a thing in a mountain pass

702
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:21,880
Speaker 1: one time and they caught a guy. They caught some

703
00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:24,719
Speaker 1: guys coming up through this pass and shot one of

704
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: them and he dropped the big recoiless rifle and then

705
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,319
Speaker 1: his buddies carried him back down off the pass. But

706
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,279
Speaker 1: that recoilless rifle was set up there, and his kid

707
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,400
Speaker 1: was telling me how he sat there all night watching

708
00:42:39,760 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 1: thinking that someone was going to come back for that

709
00:42:41,680 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: RECOILSS rifle and he saw a snow leopard come through

710
00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:48,400
Speaker 1: that pass and smell the blood where he shot that guy. Wow. Wow, Yeah,

711
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 1: that is u sa he saw. He saw it through

712
00:42:50,520 --> 00:42:54,719
Speaker 1: his night vision again, just like incredible man seeing a

713
00:42:54,800 --> 00:42:57,120
Speaker 1: snow lepard in the wild. Actually, I mean I actually

714
00:42:57,160 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: haven't seen a snow leopard in the wild because we

715
00:42:59,320 --> 00:43:01,279
Speaker 1: trapped him, so it doesn't it doesn't count to the

716
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: same degree that it would if it were just like casually,

717
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: you know, crossing a mountain pass while you happen to

718
00:43:06,280 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: be looking at a gun intently, um, waiting for some

719
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:14,719
Speaker 1: human to come back. That's pretty cool. Yeah, yeah, very

720
00:43:14,760 --> 00:43:17,840
Speaker 1: emotional things. Yeah, I mean it's the war situation is

721
00:43:17,920 --> 00:43:20,719
Speaker 1: quite horrible. But um, seeing the snow leopard, that's that's

722
00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: pretty cool. Where did Peter Mathison write the snow Leopard about?

723
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:28,399
Speaker 1: That was in Nepal? Okay, I think out where you were? No, no, um,

724
00:43:28,719 --> 00:43:31,839
Speaker 1: and yeah that's a different I don't know as much

725
00:43:31,840 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: about what the conservation status of or what field research

726
00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:37,439
Speaker 1: is like in those environments because it is, I think

727
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 1: fairly different. Um. But yeah that was Nepal and do

728
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,600
Speaker 1: and when I know, we're still getting into your time Mongoli,

729
00:43:44,680 --> 00:43:48,799
Speaker 1: but wolverines overlap with snow leopards and Mongolia. Yeah, so

730
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,560
Speaker 1: to pick up the Mongolia wolverine connection piece again, Um,

731
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: I was doing work with these snow leopard uh, you

732
00:43:55,960 --> 00:43:58,440
Speaker 1: know programs, and I really wanted to do snow leopards stuff,

733
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:00,880
Speaker 1: but I didn't. First of all, I grew up in

734
00:44:00,920 --> 00:44:03,440
Speaker 1: New England. My parents are both historians, so until I

735
00:44:03,440 --> 00:44:06,279
Speaker 1: went to Mongolia, I did not realize that there was

736
00:44:06,320 --> 00:44:09,439
Speaker 1: such a thing as like making a living running around

737
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,719
Speaker 1: in the mountains looking at wildlife. I think if I

738
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,360
Speaker 1: had known that when I was younger, I would have

739
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,720
Speaker 1: like keyed into that and followed that trajectory a lot earlier.

740
00:44:18,600 --> 00:44:21,000
Speaker 1: But it was really revelatory to me that like you

741
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 1: could actually make a living doing that, and that was

742
00:44:22,880 --> 00:44:24,960
Speaker 1: a thing. And so I really was like, hmm, I

743
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,759
Speaker 1: think I want to do this, and I think I

744
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,439
Speaker 1: want to study snow leopards. But I didn't have any

745
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 1: idea how to go about getting into the field and

746
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:40,719
Speaker 1: snow leopards, you know, scientists, researchers of like charismatic megafauna

747
00:44:40,800 --> 00:44:44,480
Speaker 1: are sort of notoriously territorial. There's that saying, of course,

748
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:46,799
Speaker 1: that you start to resemble the animal you're studying, And

749
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 1: so it just seemed like a very limited field. And

750
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: I was thinking about like other species that might be

751
00:44:56,760 --> 00:44:59,440
Speaker 1: in the same kind of environment, because the cold northern

752
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:01,200
Speaker 1: mountains was huge part of it. Like, there's no way

753
00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: I wanted to study things in some hot like jungle

754
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,480
Speaker 1: environment or anything like that. Yeah. Too much poison, too

755
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,759
Speaker 1: much poison, ivy leeches in the trees. Um. I have

756
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,960
Speaker 1: actually worked in those environments too, It's not my thing. Um,

757
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:15,680
Speaker 1: and so wolverines. I didn't really know anything about wolverines

758
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 1: when I was in Mongolia, but when I was leaving,

759
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:20,920
Speaker 1: somebody gave me a wolverine pelt as a parting gift,

760
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:24,759
Speaker 1: and I was like, what is this. It's just like

761
00:45:24,800 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 1: this weird brown pelt, Like I don't I don't even

762
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,480
Speaker 1: know what this is, um, And so I looked it up,

763
00:45:29,480 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: and because it's a sight e species, I was like,

764
00:45:31,880 --> 00:45:33,840
Speaker 1: you know, I can't really take this out of the country.

765
00:45:33,840 --> 00:45:36,239
Speaker 1: And I ended up leaving the wolverine pelt there, and

766
00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 1: then I was in graduate school. I ended up going

767
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:43,880
Speaker 1: to grad school for wildlife ecology, and I was doing

768
00:45:43,960 --> 00:45:47,360
Speaker 1: my master's research on wolves and the wolf ree introduction,

769
00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:51,120
Speaker 1: and I was working with during this you know all

770
00:45:51,120 --> 00:45:54,839
Speaker 1: about picking the big nasty ones, and I do. And

771
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:57,400
Speaker 1: I would actually rather not get into too many of

772
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,319
Speaker 1: the too many of my thoughts about that, but um, yes,

773
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: and indeed I heard many of those stories. I was

774
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 1: interviewing ranchers in the Upper Green and I was interviewing

775
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 1: Shahoni and Arapaho tribal members about their thoughts about the

776
00:46:10,200 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: wolf reintroduction ten years after it had happened, and the

777
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:19,400
Speaker 1: organization that was hosting my summer research. The director of

778
00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:24,400
Speaker 1: that organization was also the field coordinator for the Absorber

779
00:46:24,440 --> 00:46:28,359
Speaker 1: Beartooth Wolverine Project, and he invited me to go out

780
00:46:28,400 --> 00:46:31,480
Speaker 1: on a wolverine expedition because the guy who was supposed

781
00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: to go with him couldn't go. And over the course

782
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,040
Speaker 1: of talking to him about wolverine stuff, he said, Oh,

783
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: there's this unstudied population in Mongolia that nobody knows anything about,

784
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:43,960
Speaker 1: but we'd really like to learn more about them. And

785
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,120
Speaker 1: he made some kind of comment about like, but who

786
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 1: knows anything about Mongolia or like who knows anybody who

787
00:46:48,560 --> 00:46:51,760
Speaker 1: knows anything about Mongolia? And I was like, oh, well, actually,

788
00:46:51,800 --> 00:46:54,160
Speaker 1: I'm fluent in Mongolian and I have worked on wildlife

789
00:46:54,160 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: issues there in the past, and so it's kind of

790
00:46:56,880 --> 00:47:01,640
Speaker 1: your fluent Mongolian. Yes, yeah, actually today and today is

791
00:47:01,640 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 1: actually the first year of the Mongolian New Year, so

792
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: I should also say, which is like best wishes um

793
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:11,560
Speaker 1: for the year of the water rabbit um. So it's

794
00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,719
Speaker 1: very auspicious day. Say when oh, Kevin Murphy, he's been

795
00:47:14,719 --> 00:47:20,080
Speaker 1: fired up about that water rabbits rabbits? Can you say that? Say? Um,

796
00:47:20,120 --> 00:47:26,320
Speaker 1: say something like uh, Yanni is probably not correct. In Mongolian,

797
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,920
Speaker 1: Yanni's probably not correct if we don't have anything to

798
00:47:28,920 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 1: back us up on how the mom, the father and

799
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,320
Speaker 1: son fight it out. Some just want to hear some

800
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 1: Mongolian du Oh my gosh. I hate questions like this

801
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: because it's always so like on the spot. Uh in

802
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: ni sat qui hiwe you yah? Uh? Oh my god?

803
00:47:58,280 --> 00:48:01,919
Speaker 1: What is the word for two animals fighting? Uh out? Yeah,

804
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:06,280
Speaker 1: this is actually not not a word uh that I

805
00:48:06,320 --> 00:48:09,640
Speaker 1: actually know off the top of my head. Um, but yeah,

806
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:16,959
Speaker 1: so uh yeah, that's beautiful. I didn't actually, I didn't

807
00:48:16,960 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 1: actually get to the verbs. So anybody who speaks Mongolian

808
00:48:19,400 --> 00:48:21,680
Speaker 1: out there is going to recognize that that is not

809
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:26,879
Speaker 1: actually complete sentence. But I apologize about that. Um. That's

810
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:28,440
Speaker 1: pretty good, though. How the hell do you learned that

811
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:31,879
Speaker 1: the Peace Corps training in that? So? Peace Corp does

812
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: this thing, or they did when I was a volunteer,

813
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 1: where they send you to like three months of it's

814
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: basically like the worst adult summer camp you've ever been to,

815
00:48:40,080 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: where you're like there with fifty other volunteers in a

816
00:48:42,400 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 1: small Mongolian town. Um, and you they give you like

817
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,439
Speaker 1: three months of language training and cultural training. You're living

818
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,920
Speaker 1: with a Mongolian family. That part was great. Um, and

819
00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:57,280
Speaker 1: uh yeah that's how I mean. I learned the basics

820
00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 1: through their language training, and then I was put into

821
00:49:00,120 --> 00:49:02,640
Speaker 1: a town where nobody else spoke English, so I either

822
00:49:02,880 --> 00:49:05,120
Speaker 1: had to figure out how to speak Mongolian or I

823
00:49:05,160 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 1: was not going to talk to anybody for two years. Yeah, yeah, seriously,

824
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 1: And I still can't spell anything. It's really funny because,

825
00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: like you know, when you learn a language primarily through

826
00:49:14,960 --> 00:49:17,359
Speaker 1: talking to people, like I, people try to I try

827
00:49:17,360 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 1: to write things to people, and I have to go

828
00:49:18,800 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 1: back to the dictionary all the time because I'm like,

829
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:21,919
Speaker 1: how do you spell that word? How do you spell

830
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:25,040
Speaker 1: that word? Um? So it's a very different kind of experience,

831
00:49:25,080 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: I think than if you're in a classroom learning a language.

832
00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:32,000
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, but it's like highly functional though, right

833
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: it is. It's very functional. And um yeah, I've been

834
00:49:35,800 --> 00:49:41,959
Speaker 1: told my accent is really good, so I'll buy on it, Okay, great? Um. Yeah.

835
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: So I had this conversation with this guy who was

836
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: absolved involved in the Absorba Beartooth Wolverine project and then

837
00:49:52,000 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 1: ended up um starting my own project in Mongolia, and uh,

838
00:49:57,440 --> 00:49:59,839
Speaker 1: you know that was not a callering project. That would

839
00:49:59,840 --> 00:50:02,600
Speaker 1: be and way too difficult to run just because of

840
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 1: the way you call our wolverines that you have to

841
00:50:04,400 --> 00:50:07,200
Speaker 1: kind of have a vet on hand, and you know,

842
00:50:07,239 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: it's a lot of like backcountry access issues and that's

843
00:50:10,120 --> 00:50:13,080
Speaker 1: hard enough here where we have like snowmobiles and helicopters

844
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,840
Speaker 1: and fixed wing aircraft, it's still really really hard to

845
00:50:16,560 --> 00:50:19,760
Speaker 1: man the traps and monitor the traps and get people

846
00:50:19,840 --> 00:50:22,360
Speaker 1: in once you have a wolverine in the trap, to

847
00:50:22,400 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: get people in there on time, to make sure that

848
00:50:24,719 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 1: the animal isn't hurt. And so instead of sort of

849
00:50:27,719 --> 00:50:32,640
Speaker 1: trying to do something like that, I was thinking about

850
00:50:32,680 --> 00:50:37,919
Speaker 1: how much more all of my Mongolian colleagues know about

851
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: wildlife than I do. You know. They're just they're people

852
00:50:41,480 --> 00:50:44,359
Speaker 1: who a third of the population is still like on

853
00:50:44,400 --> 00:50:47,959
Speaker 1: the landscape as herders every day. And when I showed

854
00:50:48,000 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 1: up as an environmental volunteer with my ecology book that

855
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 1: I was going to teach the Mongolians, you know, about

856
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:56,920
Speaker 1: how to do ecology or whatever, I had a one

857
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,440
Speaker 1: of my fellow teachers put me in my place really fast.

858
00:50:59,480 --> 00:51:02,880
Speaker 1: She was like, know what Chingis Khan passed the world's

859
00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 1: first environmental laws over a thousand years ago. Like, what

860
00:51:06,520 --> 00:51:09,440
Speaker 1: the heck have you guys done that's comparable to that.

861
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:11,680
Speaker 1: We know how to manage our wildlife and we know

862
00:51:11,719 --> 00:51:15,759
Speaker 1: how to manage our environment. And I was like, oh yeah,

863
00:51:15,840 --> 00:51:17,719
Speaker 1: and if you're twenty two years old and you're like

864
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,400
Speaker 1: a cocky American going into a foreign country, let me

865
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:23,360
Speaker 1: tell you people about environmentalism. I am so grateful to

866
00:51:23,440 --> 00:51:26,399
Speaker 1: her for doing that because I see so many people

867
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,319
Speaker 1: who work internationally with this kind of attitude of like

868
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: it's almost like a missionary like superiority complex kind of

869
00:51:32,719 --> 00:51:36,120
Speaker 1: thing where you're like, guys, you got to humble yourselves

870
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: a little bit and see this as an exchange, not

871
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:40,680
Speaker 1: as just you showing up in this place to tell

872
00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:43,000
Speaker 1: people how to live their lives and how to do

873
00:51:43,040 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: their thing. Um, you know, can I like talking about

874
00:51:46,280 --> 00:51:48,200
Speaker 1: the Peace Corps what you're talking about right now? Have

875
00:51:48,200 --> 00:51:51,920
Speaker 1: you read the Ugly American? I have not. Yeah, everybody

876
00:51:51,960 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 1: thinks like the ugly American was the good guy. Like

877
00:51:57,520 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 1: people say like, oh, you know when when Americans go

878
00:51:59,560 --> 00:52:01,120
Speaker 1: overseas and they're out of touch, people like, oh, this

879
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,719
Speaker 1: classic ugly American, but like the ugly American and the

880
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 1: ugly American in this fictitious country of Sarcan is ugly

881
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: and humble and shuts up, and he's very effective. Okay, yeah,

882
00:52:20,560 --> 00:52:23,279
Speaker 1: I mean I think I haven't read the book, but

883
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:25,800
Speaker 1: I think that that is. Like, the most effective people

884
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,759
Speaker 1: I have seen working internationally are the people who are

885
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,239
Speaker 1: who listen. Yeah, they show up in a place and

886
00:52:33,280 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: they sit there for six months. They learn the language

887
00:52:35,080 --> 00:52:36,759
Speaker 1: to the best of their ability, and they listen to

888
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,319
Speaker 1: what people are telling them, and then they have a

889
00:52:39,360 --> 00:52:43,040
Speaker 1: basis for doing better work because they have the relationships

890
00:52:43,040 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 1: that they need and they have the understanding that they need.

891
00:52:45,160 --> 00:52:47,799
Speaker 1: And you know, they're not going in with a preconceived

892
00:52:47,840 --> 00:52:52,280
Speaker 1: notion of what's best. They're like actually co creating something

893
00:52:52,600 --> 00:52:54,759
Speaker 1: that's much stronger. So anyway, sorry, that's a little bit

894
00:52:54,800 --> 00:53:00,400
Speaker 1: of a soap box spield, but um yeah, So I

895
00:53:00,440 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: was fortunate to have this woman put me in my place,

896
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,560
Speaker 1: and I think what I was trying to do was create,

897
00:53:05,880 --> 00:53:10,279
Speaker 1: um a wildlife monitoring project and a conservation project that

898
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:14,160
Speaker 1: was really built from Mongolian values and perspectives and that

899
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 1: prioritize Mongolian knowledge and understanding of the species. And so

900
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 1: I just traveled around Mongolia and asked a lot of

901
00:53:20,480 --> 00:53:24,239
Speaker 1: questions and interviewed people about what they knew about wolverines,

902
00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:27,719
Speaker 1: and UM we went. I went to places that we're

903
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: wolverine habitat, and I went to places that were not

904
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: modeled wolverine habitat as kind of a control to understand

905
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:36,160
Speaker 1: like what people in wolverine habitat were saying versus what

906
00:53:36,160 --> 00:53:39,719
Speaker 1: people outside of wolverine habitat we're saying about this species UM.

907
00:53:40,320 --> 00:53:42,840
Speaker 1: And the background, there's like a side note background to

908
00:53:42,880 --> 00:53:47,759
Speaker 1: this is that there are pretty tight models of wolverine

909
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:52,040
Speaker 1: distribution worldwide UM that have to do with environmental factors.

910
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 1: I think we're going to talk about this a little

911
00:53:53,920 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 1: bit more hit it because it's like like like there's

912
00:53:56,800 --> 00:54:00,359
Speaker 1: a when when I was reading in the and Cren's notes, Huh,

913
00:54:00,800 --> 00:54:04,600
Speaker 1: there's like some really a somewhat simple parameter. Yeah, So

914
00:54:04,640 --> 00:54:07,000
Speaker 1: there's a there's a paper that was published in twenty

915
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,919
Speaker 1: ten about the bioclimatic envelope of the wolverine, and bio

916
00:54:11,360 --> 00:54:15,200
Speaker 1: climatic envelopes are UM. You know, species distribution models that

917
00:54:15,239 --> 00:54:21,960
Speaker 1: are defined by UM basically climatic and biological factors, and

918
00:54:22,000 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: so for wolverines, it seems like you can model their

919
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:32,920
Speaker 1: distribution worldwide UM based on places that have maximum August

920
00:54:32,920 --> 00:54:38,319
Speaker 1: temperatures of less than seventy degrees fahrenheit. And that's not averages, no,

921
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:44,600
Speaker 1: that's that's the maximum August temperature, right, So, UM, does

922
00:54:44,640 --> 00:54:49,440
Speaker 1: that correspond generally with a certain latitude or is there

923
00:54:49,480 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: some it's latitude and elevation and so yeah, because like

924
00:54:53,560 --> 00:54:56,520
Speaker 1: because like the alpine zone, like super High Country in

925
00:54:56,560 --> 00:54:59,400
Speaker 1: Colorado would have wolverines exactly right, Yeah, which had to

926
00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,120
Speaker 1: be like little teeny islands of shit. Right, you guys

927
00:55:02,160 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: are hitting all of them. This is great. I love

928
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:06,000
Speaker 1: talking to you guys because you're hitting all of these

929
00:55:06,040 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: important ideas about like where wolverines are and why they

930
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:13,000
Speaker 1: are there, and you understand how that distribution is working.

931
00:55:13,280 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 1: So at maximum augus temperatures of seventy degrees fahrenheit was

932
00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: one of the parameters, and the other was late spring snowpack,

933
00:55:19,760 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 1: so snow that remains on the ground through in that

934
00:55:22,760 --> 00:55:27,200
Speaker 1: twenty ten model through May fifteenth. So if and then

935
00:55:27,239 --> 00:55:30,720
Speaker 1: and then there is a latitude breakoff, so UM north

936
00:55:30,719 --> 00:55:35,359
Speaker 1: of sixty degrees north latitude, that relationship breaks down. Um.

937
00:55:35,560 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 1: But south of sixty degrees north, it's it's very, very

938
00:55:39,880 --> 00:55:43,839
Speaker 1: very strict, except in Mongolia where you have a lot

939
00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 1: of reports or you had a lot of reports of wolverines.

940
00:55:46,360 --> 00:55:50,160
Speaker 1: Well outside of this this uh um, at least outside

941
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:52,120
Speaker 1: of the snow model, they still tend to be inside

942
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:56,440
Speaker 1: the temperature model. UM. So the point of like traveling

943
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:59,480
Speaker 1: all over Mongolia and talking to people inside the snow model,

944
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,080
Speaker 1: inside the temperature model, and then outside of both of

945
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:04,240
Speaker 1: those models, because there are places in the Gobi Desert

946
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:06,880
Speaker 1: where it's really outside of the both of those models,

947
00:56:07,239 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: was to understand from using local ecological knowledge and bringing

948
00:56:11,840 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 1: that into the center of the work to understand like

949
00:56:14,840 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 1: where wolverines were, how they were behaving, how much people

950
00:56:17,160 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: knew about them, what they were saying about them, what

951
00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:21,960
Speaker 1: they were eating, and using that as a as a

952
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:28,640
Speaker 1: main source of information what is generally I got two

953
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,440
Speaker 1: Mongolia questions. I'm just gonna hit you both right now.

954
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 1: There's gotta be some wild ass country in Mongolia. Yes,

955
00:56:35,440 --> 00:56:38,840
Speaker 1: So put it to me, like if you walk that distance,

956
00:56:38,920 --> 00:56:41,640
Speaker 1: if you walk that direction for blank distance, you're not

957
00:56:41,680 --> 00:56:45,640
Speaker 1: going to run into a road. Oh hit me with

958
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:48,280
Speaker 1: some of that. And also, um, what is their general

959
00:56:48,640 --> 00:56:51,400
Speaker 1: like in MONGOLDI what do they regard the wolverine as?

960
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:55,960
Speaker 1: Do they regard it as a furbearing animal? Do they

961
00:56:56,000 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: regard it as like a don't touch like? What's like generally?

962
00:57:00,080 --> 00:57:02,439
Speaker 1: What is what is the view of it? Um? So

963
00:57:02,480 --> 00:57:06,160
Speaker 1: the question about roads, when I went to Mongolia in

964
00:57:06,200 --> 00:57:09,399
Speaker 1: two thousand, I think there were there were only nine

965
00:57:09,440 --> 00:57:11,880
Speaker 1: hundred kilometers of roads in the country or something like

966
00:57:11,920 --> 00:57:13,799
Speaker 1: that when I first went there, So you could go

967
00:57:14,040 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: forever without running into a road. Um, It's there is

968
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:21,560
Speaker 1: a lot of very very wild country there and like

969
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:24,680
Speaker 1: hundreds of miles and not running anything. Yeah, I mean you.

970
00:57:25,360 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: So there's a there's a little bit of a paradox

971
00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,400
Speaker 1: though the land. I've heard it described as the land

972
00:57:30,480 --> 00:57:33,919
Speaker 1: is like very lightly inhabited on the surface in terms

973
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 1: of like the density of people, in the density of infrastructure,

974
00:57:36,920 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: But the relationship that people have with that land over

975
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: every square kilometer is so deep. Um. And so I

976
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,200
Speaker 1: don't I don't I get really hesitant to describe it

977
00:57:47,240 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 1: as wilderness because people do have these these relationships with

978
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:54,960
Speaker 1: with all of it. You know, there's always somebody who

979
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:58,960
Speaker 1: has some kind of relationship with with whatever piece of

980
00:57:59,040 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 1: land you are on. But in terms of the things

981
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: that we consider markers of human habitation, like infrastructure, it's

982
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:08,760
Speaker 1: very sparsely spread. But but herd ors whoever, like people

983
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: are people. If you stay in some spot, people are

984
00:58:12,160 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: at some point in the year for some purpose utilizing

985
00:58:14,760 --> 00:58:17,600
Speaker 1: the area, Yes, and they wouldn't regard it as uninhabited,

986
00:58:17,680 --> 00:58:19,960
Speaker 1: or they would definitely not regard it as uninhabited. And

987
00:58:19,960 --> 00:58:23,160
Speaker 1: the other thing that's important to mention about Mongolia when

988
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:25,280
Speaker 1: I first went there was there was no private property

989
00:58:25,280 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 1: in the country. So you know, there was no private

990
00:58:27,760 --> 00:58:31,960
Speaker 1: landownership in the country when I arrived. So you know

991
00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,200
Speaker 1: that that idea of inhabiting a place or you know,

992
00:58:37,080 --> 00:58:39,360
Speaker 1: having a sense of like ownership or connection to the

993
00:58:39,360 --> 00:58:41,479
Speaker 1: place wasn't vested in the same things that we would

994
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:45,160
Speaker 1: consider markers of that So nobody had the right to

995
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,040
Speaker 1: like say, oh, this is my property, you can't cut

996
00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:49,960
Speaker 1: across it to go hunting. You know, that's like that

997
00:58:50,000 --> 00:58:51,720
Speaker 1: would be a very would have been a very foreign

998
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: concept at that time. In two thousand and one, they

999
00:58:55,240 --> 00:58:59,000
Speaker 1: did start into introducing a limited system of private ownership

1000
00:58:59,120 --> 00:59:03,000
Speaker 1: for people who had been occupying their houses in towns,

1001
00:59:03,160 --> 00:59:05,120
Speaker 1: they were able to receive title to it. But my

1002
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: friends came to me at that time and they were like, Oh,

1003
00:59:07,360 --> 00:59:09,760
Speaker 1: the Cadastral Service is doing this whole thing where we're

1004
00:59:09,760 --> 00:59:12,760
Speaker 1: supposed to have title to our land and we don't

1005
00:59:12,840 --> 00:59:15,280
Speaker 1: understand what that means. Can you explain to us? And

1006
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:18,120
Speaker 1: that was another one of those moments where I was like, Oh,

1007
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:23,920
Speaker 1: this place is just a really different and interesting place.

1008
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 1: And so, yeah, there's been a lot of change in

1009
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,760
Speaker 1: those twenty years, and now there is a fairly significant

1010
00:59:29,760 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 1: amount of private land, but all pasture constitutionally, in the

1011
00:59:33,000 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: Mongolian constitution, the bulk of Mongolia's landscape must remain public.

1012
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:41,720
Speaker 1: That's in their constitution. There have been also a lot

1013
00:59:41,720 --> 00:59:44,720
Speaker 1: of roads built since I was first there, so now

1014
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:47,240
Speaker 1: you can probably go much shorter distance before you run

1015
00:59:47,280 --> 00:59:51,160
Speaker 1: into a road. As for how Mongolians relate to wolverines,

1016
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:57,120
Speaker 1: they the majority of people I've spoken to do not

1017
00:59:57,240 --> 01:00:02,040
Speaker 1: consider it a significant animal um because they're so rare

1018
01:00:02,480 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: on the landscape, people don't run into them that much.

1019
01:00:05,080 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 1: They still know way more than an average American would like.

1020
01:00:08,200 --> 01:00:09,680
Speaker 1: If you go up to somebody on the street in

1021
01:00:09,720 --> 01:00:12,600
Speaker 1: the US because I've done this, and you say, tell

1022
01:00:12,640 --> 01:00:16,120
Speaker 1: me what you know about wolverines, they're like will like

1023
01:00:16,280 --> 01:00:19,360
Speaker 1: the X Men, you know, or something like that, you know,

1024
01:00:19,440 --> 01:00:21,640
Speaker 1: where they just don't really even understand that it's an

1025
01:00:21,640 --> 01:00:26,760
Speaker 1: actual animal. In Mongolia, you can ask people about wolverines

1026
01:00:26,800 --> 01:00:29,600
Speaker 1: and they will generally know the basic outlines of what

1027
01:00:29,640 --> 01:00:31,480
Speaker 1: it is, and you know that it's that it's a

1028
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,520
Speaker 1: species that wanders around a lot, and that you that

1029
01:00:34,600 --> 01:00:39,120
Speaker 1: it eats meat and it scavenges. But they don't. They don't.

1030
01:00:39,360 --> 01:00:43,440
Speaker 1: They're not present strongly enough to be like very culturally significant.

1031
01:00:43,480 --> 01:00:47,880
Speaker 1: Wolves are hugely culturally significant in Mongolia. Um, And I

1032
01:00:47,920 --> 01:00:50,440
Speaker 1: was thinking when I first started talking to people about wolverines, Oh,

1033
01:00:50,440 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: maybe there's going to be some of this kind of

1034
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 1: like wolf similar to the wolf stuff, where you know

1035
01:00:56,520 --> 01:00:58,920
Speaker 1: there's some kind of spiritual connotation or something like that.

1036
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,840
Speaker 1: They're really wasn't on the same order, but they are

1037
01:01:01,840 --> 01:01:04,600
Speaker 1: associated with er La Khan, who's the king of the underworld,

1038
01:01:04,640 --> 01:01:07,840
Speaker 1: So there's that sort of spooky like, Um, you know,

1039
01:01:08,000 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 1: wolverines are a little dubious. They kind of seem to

1040
01:01:10,640 --> 01:01:13,840
Speaker 1: be somewhat associated with some chaotic powers kind of thing. Yeah,

1041
01:01:13,840 --> 01:01:16,320
Speaker 1: and they have like a lot of Northern and North America,

1042
01:01:16,360 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: a lot of northern indigenous groups have a sort of

1043
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:22,440
Speaker 1: like it's like a devil yes type creature because of

1044
01:01:22,440 --> 01:01:26,240
Speaker 1: their ability to like ruin your ship. Yeah, it's um, yes,

1045
01:01:26,320 --> 01:01:30,440
Speaker 1: there they're getting your food cash, they'll rob your trap lines,

1046
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:34,880
Speaker 1: they'll like, you know, they're they're not always welcome. They

1047
01:01:34,880 --> 01:01:39,920
Speaker 1: are unapologetically about their own uh you know, um well being.

1048
01:01:39,960 --> 01:01:41,600
Speaker 1: I think it's a good way to put it. And

1049
01:01:41,640 --> 01:01:43,840
Speaker 1: there are there are also many of those stories. Like

1050
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,600
Speaker 1: one of the populations I work with in Mongolia are

1051
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: reindeer herders, and they so they're up in the tiger

1052
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:52,120
Speaker 1: in the mountains with their reindeer and they are still

1053
01:01:52,520 --> 01:01:57,040
Speaker 1: largely hunting people. They use their reindeer for transportation. They

1054
01:01:57,040 --> 01:01:59,040
Speaker 1: milk their reindeer, but they don't usually eat them. So

1055
01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: most of their protein comes from hunting. And they go

1056
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:07,919
Speaker 1: out on these winter expeditions, um, where they will hunt

1057
01:02:07,960 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: and then they build these like little log shelters and

1058
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:12,840
Speaker 1: they put the meat in there and then they'll leave

1059
01:02:12,880 --> 01:02:17,120
Speaker 1: it elevated around the ground. Um, they're on the they're

1060
01:02:17,120 --> 01:02:19,000
Speaker 1: built the ones I've seen are built. They're just like

1061
01:02:19,040 --> 01:02:22,040
Speaker 1: little log boxes. They're not like they're not that elevated.

1062
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,680
Speaker 1: Um and the but they but they they have a

1063
01:02:25,720 --> 01:02:28,720
Speaker 1: platform inside. They do have a platform inside. Yeah, um,

1064
01:02:28,800 --> 01:02:31,240
Speaker 1: And then they'll go and they'll continue their hunting rounds

1065
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,360
Speaker 1: and they'll like come back and retrieve the meat because

1066
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:36,920
Speaker 1: it stays frozen. And one of those guys was telling

1067
01:02:36,920 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 1: me a story about how he came. He came back

1068
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 1: to a place where he had cashed a moose and

1069
01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,280
Speaker 1: there was a hole that had been chewed through and

1070
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:48,400
Speaker 1: that the wolverine, he said, must have been in there

1071
01:02:48,520 --> 01:02:53,840
Speaker 1: for like weeks, just eating the entire moose and that um,

1072
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: and the wolverine could have been going and coming back.

1073
01:02:55,720 --> 01:02:57,560
Speaker 1: But he said, oh, you know, actually, wolverines I think

1074
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,600
Speaker 1: are a very tidy animal because you know, there was

1075
01:03:00,600 --> 01:03:03,640
Speaker 1: a place where it was doing its business inside them,

1076
01:03:04,080 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 1: inside the box, and then there was a place where

1077
01:03:06,040 --> 01:03:08,200
Speaker 1: it was clearly sleeping and these were all like and

1078
01:03:08,240 --> 01:03:09,880
Speaker 1: then there was a place where it was eating, and

1079
01:03:09,920 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 1: so it was keeping its household in order. Layout yeah

1080
01:03:13,520 --> 01:03:16,560
Speaker 1: so um, but yeah, they do have this reputation of course,

1081
01:03:16,600 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 1: like one of the colloquial terms in English is devil bear. Um.

1082
01:03:19,920 --> 01:03:24,320
Speaker 1: They they have a reputation for being tricksters. They are

1083
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 1: kind of known as like buffoons sometimes but also with

1084
01:03:28,240 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: that dark edge of like you know, potential potential chaos

1085
01:03:33,120 --> 01:03:37,200
Speaker 1: and problematic association if you if you do the wrong

1086
01:03:37,240 --> 01:03:39,600
Speaker 1: thing or if you cross them. If you look at

1087
01:03:39,600 --> 01:03:46,400
Speaker 1: a Mongolian wolverine, um, are there distinctive like in terms

1088
01:03:46,400 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 1: of size, coloration, the bars. Would you ever be like, Oh,

1089
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:53,000
Speaker 1: that's a Eurasian wolverine and that's a North American wolverine. No?

1090
01:03:53,240 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: I think visually they appear quite similar genetically, Um, you know,

1091
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:00,720
Speaker 1: at least in terms of the half types, which is

1092
01:04:00,720 --> 01:04:03,160
Speaker 1: what we look at for evolution. Um. You know, there

1093
01:04:03,160 --> 01:04:06,440
Speaker 1: are there are different haplotypes in North America and in Eurasia,

1094
01:04:06,480 --> 01:04:10,680
Speaker 1: but they are also overlapping haplotypes. U. So it's basically

1095
01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: the same animal as far as we can tell behaviorally

1096
01:04:13,920 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 1: and in terms of like what they look like. Yeah, yeah,

1097
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:21,080
Speaker 1: how many have you seen without how you see in

1098
01:04:21,120 --> 01:04:25,480
Speaker 1: the wild without like not trying to lure him in one? Yeah?

1099
01:04:25,640 --> 01:04:28,840
Speaker 1: Yeah to what you've seen too, right, Anny, Yeah, I'd

1100
01:04:28,880 --> 01:04:32,360
Speaker 1: love to hear about Yeah, oh you did drag that

1101
01:04:32,400 --> 01:04:34,320
Speaker 1: moose leg? Well? We were all in the same hunt

1102
01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:38,040
Speaker 1: with my dad. But you but then you saw one

1103
01:04:38,200 --> 01:04:41,640
Speaker 1: robin caribou carcass, Yeah, and you saw on robin moose car. Yes.

1104
01:04:41,880 --> 01:04:47,240
Speaker 1: And on that trip I saw in a way off,

1105
01:04:47,320 --> 01:04:50,480
Speaker 1: on a way off distant mountain, I saw another wolverine.

1106
01:04:51,520 --> 01:04:53,640
Speaker 1: It was miles from where we saw the one that

1107
01:04:53,760 --> 01:04:58,120
Speaker 1: was stashing the cariboo parts. More than likely probably the

1108
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,520
Speaker 1: same one, but could have in my third one. Wow,

1109
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:03,840
Speaker 1: where did you see the one you saw Mongolia? No,

1110
01:05:04,040 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 1: actually it was in It was in Wyoming. So that

1111
01:05:08,160 --> 01:05:10,640
Speaker 1: very I was mentioning the guy who I worked with,

1112
01:05:10,680 --> 01:05:14,920
Speaker 1: who was the field director for the Absorka Beartooth Wolverine project,

1113
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:19,520
Speaker 1: and so it was that expedition. In fact, here they

1114
01:05:19,520 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 1: had had callers out on a bunch of their wolverines,

1115
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:23,760
Speaker 1: and he wanted to go in and look at a

1116
01:05:23,800 --> 01:05:27,560
Speaker 1: cluster of locations from that collar to see if we

1117
01:05:27,560 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 1: could figure out what the wolverine had been doing in

1118
01:05:29,800 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 1: that location. And it was up on the you know,

1119
01:05:32,800 --> 01:05:35,440
Speaker 1: the Absorka Beartooth Plateau. We went on and off of

1120
01:05:35,480 --> 01:05:38,960
Speaker 1: Toga Te Pass and it was like a hike. It

1121
01:05:39,000 --> 01:05:42,560
Speaker 1: was like forty two miles in two days. I was

1122
01:05:42,720 --> 01:05:44,600
Speaker 1: not in shape to do something like that, but he

1123
01:05:44,720 --> 01:05:47,600
Speaker 1: really needed somebody to go with him because the four

1124
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:50,200
Speaker 1: Service protocols said that he couldn't do it by himself.

1125
01:05:50,640 --> 01:05:52,320
Speaker 1: So he's like, it'll be fine, it'll be fine, it's

1126
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:54,800
Speaker 1: totally fine. Once we get up there, it'll be entirely flat.

1127
01:05:56,200 --> 01:05:58,800
Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, you know, I'm up for whatever.

1128
01:05:58,840 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 1: I'll go. And so we went, and he kept saying like,

1129
01:06:03,480 --> 01:06:05,360
Speaker 1: it's gonna be a little bit hard, it's going to

1130
01:06:05,400 --> 01:06:06,960
Speaker 1: be a long hike, but it'll be fine. It'll be

1131
01:06:06,960 --> 01:06:08,320
Speaker 1: flat when we get up there. But we're not going

1132
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 1: to see the wolverine, because you never see the wolverine,

1133
01:06:10,280 --> 01:06:12,840
Speaker 1: so don't get your hopes up. And so he had

1134
01:06:12,880 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 1: his dog with him. And the first night that we

1135
01:06:15,480 --> 01:06:20,680
Speaker 1: were out, it was dusk and we were I was

1136
01:06:20,680 --> 01:06:23,800
Speaker 1: washing the dishes after we had eaten, and all of

1137
01:06:23,880 --> 01:06:27,480
Speaker 1: a sudden I heard him just screaming his dog's name

1138
01:06:27,560 --> 01:06:31,880
Speaker 1: and he's like, come back, no, come back. And I

1139
01:06:31,960 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 1: was like, WHOA, what is going on? And he's like,

1140
01:06:34,480 --> 01:06:38,120
Speaker 1: it's the wolverine. It's the wolverine. And so I looked

1141
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,200
Speaker 1: down over the little ridge and the dog and the

1142
01:06:40,240 --> 01:06:45,280
Speaker 1: wolverine were like running at each other. Yeah, and I dropped.

1143
01:06:45,320 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 1: I remember dropping my dishes and just like sprinting for

1144
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: my binoculars. And then luckily his dog was obedient and

1145
01:06:52,920 --> 01:06:54,760
Speaker 1: came back, because I don't think that would have ended

1146
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:59,000
Speaker 1: well for her if she hadn't done. And so she

1147
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:02,280
Speaker 1: came back and we out there with our binoculars as

1148
01:07:02,320 --> 01:07:04,080
Speaker 1: the sun went down and it got dark, and that

1149
01:07:04,120 --> 01:07:08,040
Speaker 1: wolverine circled our camp for probably like seventeen minutes, and

1150
01:07:08,080 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 1: it really Yeah, it came up and it kept like

1151
01:07:11,320 --> 01:07:14,400
Speaker 1: it kept like looking at us from one rock and

1152
01:07:14,440 --> 01:07:16,160
Speaker 1: then it would like hop off of that rock and

1153
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:17,720
Speaker 1: it would go to another rock and get up on

1154
01:07:17,760 --> 01:07:20,160
Speaker 1: the rock and look at us again. And you know,

1155
01:07:20,240 --> 01:07:22,840
Speaker 1: we were staring at it, and it was staring at us,

1156
01:07:22,960 --> 01:07:27,919
Speaker 1: and it was just this moment of mutual curiosity. And

1157
01:07:28,360 --> 01:07:30,080
Speaker 1: that was when I was hooked. I was like, Okay,

1158
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:32,480
Speaker 1: this is really cool, and now I definitely want to

1159
01:07:32,480 --> 01:07:35,400
Speaker 1: do this project in Mongolia and go learn more about

1160
01:07:35,400 --> 01:07:38,680
Speaker 1: this this species. So yeah, that's the only wolverine I've

1161
01:07:38,680 --> 01:07:42,040
Speaker 1: ever seen in the wild. I've handled two in traps,

1162
01:07:42,040 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 1: and I've seen a lot on camera traps, but that

1163
01:07:44,920 --> 01:07:48,040
Speaker 1: remains my only wild wolverine sighting. Were you doing the

1164
01:07:48,040 --> 01:07:50,720
Speaker 1: camera traps in Mongolia? Yes? Yes, And how are you

1165
01:07:50,720 --> 01:07:52,880
Speaker 1: getting to what were you doing to lure men? Nothing?

1166
01:07:53,480 --> 01:07:56,640
Speaker 1: You know they So this is one of the really

1167
01:07:56,640 --> 01:08:02,320
Speaker 1: interesting things about the Mongolian wolverine work. Um. With wolverines

1168
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:06,439
Speaker 1: in the US, it seems like if you set even

1169
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,480
Speaker 1: camera traps, um, you need to put a lure out

1170
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: to get them to come to that location. And usually

1171
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:16,080
Speaker 1: what you do as you hang a bundle of bones

1172
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 1: from a wire up in the trees and you put

1173
01:08:18,520 --> 01:08:22,960
Speaker 1: scent on it so it broadcasts the scent. Yeah, exactly

1174
01:08:23,080 --> 01:08:25,920
Speaker 1: and um, and eventually you'll get a wolverine coming in

1175
01:08:26,000 --> 01:08:27,800
Speaker 1: and they will return. Once they know that there's a

1176
01:08:27,800 --> 01:08:29,920
Speaker 1: source of food someplace, they will return again and again

1177
01:08:29,960 --> 01:08:32,160
Speaker 1: and again to that place even after the food source

1178
01:08:32,200 --> 01:08:36,400
Speaker 1: has gone like, they they'll check it out. Um. In Mongolia,

1179
01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:39,280
Speaker 1: we had we set up a grid of fifty cameras

1180
01:08:39,360 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: in these national parks where I was working in northern Mongolia.

1181
01:08:42,280 --> 01:08:45,080
Speaker 1: And I do know that my ranger colleagues were like

1182
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:49,160
Speaker 1: they were peeing much in the same way that I

1183
01:08:49,280 --> 01:08:52,840
Speaker 1: use the um, you know, perfume to learn the snow efforts.

1184
01:08:52,880 --> 01:08:55,880
Speaker 1: They would like pee on a spot um near the

1185
01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:59,800
Speaker 1: where the camera was aimed. Um. But that was the

1186
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:03,280
Speaker 1: only lure that that we used, and in some cases

1187
01:09:03,320 --> 01:09:05,120
Speaker 1: they weren't even doing that, And so you would just

1188
01:09:05,120 --> 01:09:07,639
Speaker 1: get these these wolverines that were like traveling. You're setting

1189
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,320
Speaker 1: it up on trails or not even on trails. Well,

1190
01:09:10,720 --> 01:09:14,479
Speaker 1: trails is like a I mean there are like travel

1191
01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:17,639
Speaker 1: routes that are used by both wildlife and by human

1192
01:09:17,680 --> 01:09:21,080
Speaker 1: herders in those national parks. Yeah, and I think you

1193
01:09:21,120 --> 01:09:24,000
Speaker 1: know a lot of it really depended on the rangers

1194
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:26,240
Speaker 1: knowledge of where they had seen tracks in the past,

1195
01:09:26,360 --> 01:09:28,840
Speaker 1: and so they would set these these cameras up so

1196
01:09:28,880 --> 01:09:31,519
Speaker 1: they'd know a likely cross and spot or whatever from

1197
01:09:31,560 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 1: pass that they're using. Yeah, because they've been out on

1198
01:09:33,520 --> 01:09:35,479
Speaker 1: this landscape their whole life. Every single one of those

1199
01:09:35,600 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 1: rangers had been Some of them were former hunters U

1200
01:09:39,720 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 1: And of course hunting is now illegal in those national parks,

1201
01:09:42,360 --> 01:09:45,960
Speaker 1: which is a whole other discussion, but you know, some

1202
01:09:46,040 --> 01:09:48,080
Speaker 1: of them had been brought into the national parks by

1203
01:09:48,200 --> 01:09:51,599
Speaker 1: giving them a salary to not kill the wildlife anymore,

1204
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:56,280
Speaker 1: but rather to to protect it U. So yeah, again

1205
01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:58,920
Speaker 1: it just for me, it foregrounds the importance of having

1206
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:03,640
Speaker 1: a population working on wildlife research and conservation that is

1207
01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:06,680
Speaker 1: really tied to that that wildlife population and knows the

1208
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:18,599
Speaker 1: landscape really really well. What else are you picking off

1209
01:10:18,600 --> 01:10:23,160
Speaker 1: on those cameras? Snow leppards one snow leopard. Yeah, and

1210
01:10:23,320 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 1: we know that she's a female. It's the first snow

1211
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:29,160
Speaker 1: lepperd that was found in that park in fifty years

1212
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:32,479
Speaker 1: I think. And I had also done the Long Range

1213
01:10:32,520 --> 01:10:35,080
Speaker 1: ski expedition in twenty thirteen in those parks and we

1214
01:10:35,120 --> 01:10:37,840
Speaker 1: had seen snow leppard tracks, so we knew that there

1215
01:10:37,880 --> 01:10:39,719
Speaker 1: was one up there. But we did get her on camera.

1216
01:10:41,040 --> 01:10:47,000
Speaker 1: We get a lot of links bore elk moose. Yeah.

1217
01:10:47,040 --> 01:10:51,280
Speaker 1: Tigers and Mongolia not anymore, Nope. But you know if

1218
01:10:51,320 --> 01:10:55,160
Speaker 1: the Russians, I mean, say what you want about the Russians,

1219
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,400
Speaker 1: they do have some cool tiger conservation stuff going on,

1220
01:10:57,439 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 1: and maybe if they keep it up, there might be

1221
01:11:00,360 --> 01:11:03,559
Speaker 1: sun back in eastern Mongolia at some point. Huh. Yeah,

1222
01:11:03,600 --> 01:11:07,439
Speaker 1: the Russians are good about tigers. Yeah, I mean a

1223
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,720
Speaker 1: man you can hold there should be like like, let's

1224
01:11:10,720 --> 01:11:12,759
Speaker 1: just talk about tigers and Russias. They got some tiger

1225
01:11:12,800 --> 01:11:15,800
Speaker 1: conservation they do. Yeah, tigers, and it doesn't mean they

1226
01:11:15,800 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: should have invaded Ukraine. No, I know, I completely agree

1227
01:11:21,479 --> 01:11:24,400
Speaker 1: with you. But there's there's like we used to we

1228
01:11:24,479 --> 01:11:27,400
Speaker 1: used to kind of have this like affectionate, like scornful

1229
01:11:27,600 --> 01:11:31,760
Speaker 1: thing about Vladimir Putin and tigers, because he had these

1230
01:11:31,760 --> 01:11:36,280
Speaker 1: photos of himself like shirtless, like arting darting tigers and

1231
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:38,880
Speaker 1: riding horses around on tiger content. There's a shirtless photo

1232
01:11:38,920 --> 01:11:42,200
Speaker 1: of him with a huge yellow perch, which I don't

1233
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:44,800
Speaker 1: know the head. It's a different species. They're not they're

1234
01:11:44,880 --> 01:11:48,479
Speaker 1: European perch. I call the boys did some research on

1235
01:11:48,520 --> 01:11:50,960
Speaker 1: this because they've seen those pictures of those like four

1236
01:11:51,000 --> 01:11:53,519
Speaker 1: pounders in Europe. There. I wouldn't if I called that perch,

1237
01:11:53,560 --> 01:12:00,759
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have had any clothes on make apistern. Now

1238
01:12:01,880 --> 01:12:09,000
Speaker 1: he bought a big perch. Yeah, So part of Vladimir

1239
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:10,920
Speaker 1: Putin's like I don't know he was trying to do

1240
01:12:11,000 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 1: like twelve months of Vladimir Putin shirtless calendar with all

1241
01:12:13,640 --> 01:12:16,200
Speaker 1: the wildest species or whatever, but he yeah, he had

1242
01:12:16,240 --> 01:12:21,000
Speaker 1: a shirtless tiger photo at some point and um, yeah,

1243
01:12:21,040 --> 01:12:25,200
Speaker 1: so that's that's Putin and the tiger thing. That's what's

1244
01:12:25,240 --> 01:12:28,880
Speaker 1: not not banged. They're ammer tigers. Yeah, ammer tigers. So

1245
01:12:28,920 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 1: the emmer river. What's another one, like Siberian tigers? No?

1246
01:12:33,520 --> 01:12:35,880
Speaker 1: No, no no, Like, what's the you know, the um dear

1247
01:12:35,960 --> 01:12:40,000
Speaker 1: sue Uzala. What's that tiger species that would have been

1248
01:12:40,040 --> 01:12:44,920
Speaker 1: also the ammer tiger. Oh? Yeah, Siberian tigers. Siberian tigers

1249
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:48,320
Speaker 1: the same thing or not? Yeah? I mean well, you

1250
01:12:48,320 --> 01:12:50,080
Speaker 1: know there are lumpers and splitters and they are all

1251
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 1: of these taxonomic debates all the time. But Siberian tigers.

1252
01:12:53,520 --> 01:12:56,439
Speaker 1: The only extant population of Siberian tigers are ammer tigers

1253
01:12:56,439 --> 01:12:59,040
Speaker 1: at this point, so those are the same thing. Heads up,

1254
01:12:59,120 --> 01:13:03,040
Speaker 1: people at home. Uh, who's the famous Japanese director that

1255
01:13:03,120 --> 01:13:07,080
Speaker 1: made all the samurai movies. He made a movie dar

1256
01:13:07,160 --> 01:13:10,599
Speaker 1: suit Uzala the Hunter, nothing to do with samurai stuff,

1257
01:13:10,640 --> 01:13:16,679
Speaker 1: and it's like Russians. It's like the Russian army working

1258
01:13:16,720 --> 01:13:19,320
Speaker 1: in Siberian they hire a hunter as a guide and

1259
01:13:19,320 --> 01:13:24,040
Speaker 1: he's like, has this crazy relationship with Siberian tigers. There's

1260
01:13:24,040 --> 01:13:27,599
Speaker 1: that book too that was popular whatever ten years ago

1261
01:13:27,760 --> 01:13:30,680
Speaker 1: about the guy who's trying to kill a tiger who

1262
01:13:30,720 --> 01:13:34,120
Speaker 1: was killing last talk about having him on the show Man.

1263
01:13:34,720 --> 01:13:36,519
Speaker 1: It's a good book, but he does a lot of

1264
01:13:36,560 --> 01:13:41,160
Speaker 1: like I was like text messages buddies. He does a

1265
01:13:41,160 --> 01:13:44,240
Speaker 1: lot of like don't say anything, bag, we were text buddies. No,

1266
01:13:44,360 --> 01:13:47,240
Speaker 1: there's a lot of like speculation about how the tiger

1267
01:13:47,320 --> 01:13:50,440
Speaker 1: thinks and things like that in the you know, it's interesting.

1268
01:13:51,200 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 1: Um that same author though, wrote The Golden Spruce. That's right.

1269
01:13:56,200 --> 01:14:01,719
Speaker 1: You want a book that will curl your hair anyhow

1270
01:14:02,120 --> 01:14:08,640
Speaker 1: cool bug links, Yes, moose Elk Boer place sounds like

1271
01:14:08,640 --> 01:14:14,519
Speaker 1: the Promised Land. I love it. Yeah, it's my second home.

1272
01:14:14,840 --> 01:14:17,400
Speaker 1: So you just hail Mary out of trail camera on

1273
01:14:17,479 --> 01:14:19,559
Speaker 1: a trail. Some guys like I saw track you once.

1274
01:14:19,680 --> 01:14:21,520
Speaker 1: I mean you got to have like a lot of cameras,

1275
01:14:21,600 --> 01:14:24,240
Speaker 1: a lot of days, and a lot of ship besides wolverines.

1276
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:27,439
Speaker 1: It's yeah, I mean it's there's so much wildlife in

1277
01:14:27,479 --> 01:14:30,479
Speaker 1: these in these protected areas, and I think it's a

1278
01:14:31,640 --> 01:14:34,320
Speaker 1: People say that Mongolia is kind of this like last

1279
01:14:34,520 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 1: refuge for Eurasian wildlife because of this very deep um

1280
01:14:40,640 --> 01:14:45,320
Speaker 1: rappor and sense of relationship that that Mongolians have with wildlife,

1281
01:14:45,360 --> 01:14:48,599
Speaker 1: like it is cosmologically important to them. In a general sense,

1282
01:14:48,640 --> 01:14:52,320
Speaker 1: like maybe not wolverines specifically, but but wildlife and relationships

1283
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:54,960
Speaker 1: with wildlife are important, and they didn't have a lot

1284
01:14:54,960 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 1: of infrastructure, so you know, it was it was a

1285
01:14:57,160 --> 01:15:01,000
Speaker 1: place where there was still full connective on the landscape.

1286
01:15:02,040 --> 01:15:06,040
Speaker 1: And although respecting wildlife and having this rapport with wildlife

1287
01:15:06,040 --> 01:15:09,120
Speaker 1: does not mean that you don't hunt them, or you

1288
01:15:09,200 --> 01:15:11,559
Speaker 1: might be less inclined to think they should kill every

1289
01:15:11,680 --> 01:15:14,240
Speaker 1: last one of those things precisely. Yeah, Like when I

1290
01:15:14,680 --> 01:15:16,720
Speaker 1: talked to a lot of my hurt her friends about

1291
01:15:16,760 --> 01:15:20,360
Speaker 1: how we wiped we European settlers wiped wolves out of

1292
01:15:20,400 --> 01:15:22,920
Speaker 1: the lower forty eight and you know, this is a

1293
01:15:23,000 --> 01:15:26,000
Speaker 1: hurting culture. They are constantly dealing with wolves coming in

1294
01:15:26,080 --> 01:15:29,800
Speaker 1: and attacking their livestock, and they were so I mean

1295
01:15:30,080 --> 01:15:32,840
Speaker 1: categorically everybody has just been like, what is wrong with

1296
01:15:32,880 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: you people? That is completely stupid? Why did you do that?

1297
01:15:36,000 --> 01:15:40,519
Speaker 1: M Yeah, So they deal they they deal with it.

1298
01:15:40,720 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 1: Like wolves are adversarial in some respects, So that doesn't

1299
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:47,439
Speaker 1: mean that you'd want them, yes, to cease existing. Yeah,

1300
01:15:47,479 --> 01:15:52,800
Speaker 1: because wolves carry this this power called humor, and they're

1301
01:15:52,880 --> 01:15:55,760
Speaker 1: they're like humor comes from the from the sky and

1302
01:15:55,880 --> 01:15:58,439
Speaker 1: it conduits through wolves. And so there's a saying in

1303
01:15:58,520 --> 01:16:00,800
Speaker 1: Mongolia that it's lucky to see a wolf's luckier to

1304
01:16:00,880 --> 01:16:02,960
Speaker 1: kill a wolf. So if you see the wolf, you

1305
01:16:03,000 --> 01:16:05,320
Speaker 1: get you get hum or. If you kill the wolf,

1306
01:16:05,360 --> 01:16:07,320
Speaker 1: you get even more humor. But if all the wolves

1307
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:12,240
Speaker 1: are gone, it's gone, right, And so I write this now, Yeah,

1308
01:16:12,280 --> 01:16:16,120
Speaker 1: And so basically it's really important for men too, because uh,

1309
01:16:16,400 --> 01:16:18,599
Speaker 1: you know, women can get humor in a number of ways,

1310
01:16:18,640 --> 01:16:20,760
Speaker 1: but for men it's like a lot more precarious. So

1311
01:16:20,840 --> 01:16:23,559
Speaker 1: basically what they're saying is like when they when they're

1312
01:16:23,560 --> 01:16:27,800
Speaker 1: astonished that we wiped out wolves, they're astonished precisely because

1313
01:16:27,840 --> 01:16:31,080
Speaker 1: you're like, well, you know, how are men men? There

1314
01:16:31,080 --> 01:16:36,160
Speaker 1: are no men if there are no wolves. So well

1315
01:16:36,240 --> 01:16:38,880
Speaker 1: from wolves as well, but um, mostly from seeing them,

1316
01:16:38,880 --> 01:16:43,000
Speaker 1: not killing them. Women can, I've been told, get renew

1317
01:16:43,040 --> 01:16:44,880
Speaker 1: their humor, Like if your humor is down, your life

1318
01:16:44,920 --> 01:16:47,479
Speaker 1: starts to go badly. So, um, you know women can

1319
01:16:47,520 --> 01:16:55,200
Speaker 1: do it by just like doing embroidery. Um, yeah of course, yeah,

1320
01:16:55,200 --> 01:16:58,760
Speaker 1: you know, like just taking care of their kids, like

1321
01:16:58,840 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 1: lighting the fire. Women have a specific relationship with the

1322
01:17:01,200 --> 01:17:04,040
Speaker 1: hearth and fire to which helps keep them more more

1323
01:17:04,080 --> 01:17:07,960
Speaker 1: in order in that regard cosmologically, um, that that men

1324
01:17:08,040 --> 01:17:12,360
Speaker 1: don't necessarily have. So anyway, I like, I'm not I'm

1325
01:17:12,400 --> 01:17:14,400
Speaker 1: just describing things that have been told to me. I

1326
01:17:14,439 --> 01:17:18,720
Speaker 1: don't want to be like saying that I'm necessarily advocating

1327
01:17:18,760 --> 01:17:24,760
Speaker 1: for women doing more embroidery or well, yes, this is

1328
01:17:24,800 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 1: what I have been told. I want to move. Um,

1329
01:17:27,200 --> 01:17:28,560
Speaker 1: I can talk about my mongol Ya all day. I

1330
01:17:28,600 --> 01:17:32,200
Speaker 1: want to talk about America a little bit. Okay, why

1331
01:17:32,880 --> 01:17:39,240
Speaker 1: um their day? Who's I talking to? Not you? I

1332
01:17:39,360 --> 01:17:41,160
Speaker 1: was talking about how you were coming on the show,

1333
01:17:42,760 --> 01:17:45,280
Speaker 1: and I was in Michigan and that's where I was

1334
01:17:45,360 --> 01:17:47,760
Speaker 1: brought up, okay, and I was like, why do they

1335
01:17:47,800 --> 01:17:51,320
Speaker 1: call Michigan, Like why is it the Wolverine State? So

1336
01:17:51,360 --> 01:17:57,519
Speaker 1: I looked up current and historical range maps, and a

1337
01:17:57,640 --> 01:17:59,920
Speaker 1: number of them showed historical range and I don't know

1338
01:18:00,000 --> 01:18:01,320
Speaker 1: how far back they're going, Like I don't want to

1339
01:18:01,320 --> 01:18:04,240
Speaker 1: look at historical range maps from like twenty thousand years ago,

1340
01:18:04,840 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 1: like ice sheets and shit. But I was trying to like,

1341
01:18:06,840 --> 01:18:11,280
Speaker 1: like at the time of European contact, let's say, right, Um,

1342
01:18:11,320 --> 01:18:12,679
Speaker 1: So if I was looking at that, it was saying

1343
01:18:12,720 --> 01:18:17,040
Speaker 1: like like all of Michigan, which I don't buy. I

1344
01:18:17,080 --> 01:18:22,240
Speaker 1: don't know all of Michigan, northern Wisconsin, northern Minnesota. Like,

1345
01:18:22,280 --> 01:18:27,760
Speaker 1: what's the best understanding of in in UH in the

1346
01:18:28,000 --> 01:18:31,400
Speaker 1: in historic times, Okay, wherever you can use as a

1347
01:18:31,439 --> 01:18:35,080
Speaker 1: jump off point, like European contact, historic times, whatever, where

1348
01:18:35,080 --> 01:18:38,840
Speaker 1: were they it's a it's this is it is a

1349
01:18:38,880 --> 01:18:43,479
Speaker 1: matter of some discussion and debate, but we think that

1350
01:18:43,680 --> 01:18:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, wolverine habitat requirements still within the historic past

1351
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:51,960
Speaker 1: from European contact and before you know, they still had

1352
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:56,080
Speaker 1: the biological requirements of needing a cold, snowy niche to occupy.

1353
01:18:56,720 --> 01:19:01,040
Speaker 1: So um, what is generally accept now is that they

1354
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:03,920
Speaker 1: were through the rocky mountains of the US down to

1355
01:19:04,200 --> 01:19:08,280
Speaker 1: New Mexico. They were in the Sierra Nevada in California.

1356
01:19:08,439 --> 01:19:12,360
Speaker 1: They may have been in the very northern part of

1357
01:19:12,479 --> 01:19:14,400
Speaker 1: New England, and they may have been in some of

1358
01:19:14,400 --> 01:19:18,520
Speaker 1: those northern parts of UM, you know, Michigan and Minnesota

1359
01:19:18,520 --> 01:19:22,720
Speaker 1: in the Midwest. I think Lewis and Clark record a

1360
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:26,759
Speaker 1: wolverine sighting in like Nebraska in their journals or something

1361
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:28,560
Speaker 1: like that, but I'm not totally convinced that that was

1362
01:19:28,600 --> 01:19:32,040
Speaker 1: actually a wolverine, you know, dirt Miss Dad saw one

1363
01:19:32,439 --> 01:19:36,519
Speaker 1: in Miles City. There was one in downtown Lewistown last winter, Yes,

1364
01:19:36,640 --> 01:19:41,240
Speaker 1: like in the cemetery or something. It was a badger.

1365
01:19:41,240 --> 01:19:43,240
Speaker 1: And he's like, listen, this one thing. My old man knows.

1366
01:19:43,280 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 1: It's a badger, not a badger. So we can talk

1367
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:51,040
Speaker 1: about why that those are. I don't ever dismiss completely

1368
01:19:51,040 --> 01:19:54,160
Speaker 1: out of hand people who report out of range wolverine

1369
01:19:54,200 --> 01:19:56,920
Speaker 1: sightings to me, because you're saying, did some some guys

1370
01:19:56,960 --> 01:20:00,879
Speaker 1: treed one, like scared one into a tree in Michigan? Yeah, so, um,

1371
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:04,120
Speaker 1: the Michigan thing is interesting. I think what is what

1372
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:07,400
Speaker 1: people speculate about why Michigan is known as the wolverine State.

1373
01:20:07,439 --> 01:20:10,040
Speaker 1: And I hope I'm not disillusioning you as somebody who

1374
01:20:10,080 --> 01:20:14,559
Speaker 1: was raised there, but that the fur trade was the

1375
01:20:14,640 --> 01:20:21,320
Speaker 1: first encounter that a lot of Europeans had with wolverine pelts,

1376
01:20:21,360 --> 01:20:22,800
Speaker 1: Like that was the first time they ever ran into

1377
01:20:22,800 --> 01:20:24,719
Speaker 1: wolverines because most of these people were coming from England

1378
01:20:24,720 --> 01:20:27,640
Speaker 1: and France and there were no longer any wolverines spaces,

1379
01:20:28,080 --> 01:20:31,000
Speaker 1: and so they were like, oh, here's this weird animal

1380
01:20:31,080 --> 01:20:33,760
Speaker 1: that's coming through these fur trading posts. In Michigan. So

1381
01:20:33,880 --> 01:20:36,320
Speaker 1: Michigan was the point of first encounter, but it might

1382
01:20:36,320 --> 01:20:40,759
Speaker 1: not have been the place of Canada down into Detroit exactly.

1383
01:20:40,840 --> 01:20:43,360
Speaker 1: And you're like, oh, I wanted to Detroit to the Fort,

1384
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:46,080
Speaker 1: and yeah, some guys that came from four hundred miles

1385
01:20:46,120 --> 01:20:49,719
Speaker 1: north had a bunch of wolverine pelts exactly. Wolverine state, Yeah, exactly,

1386
01:20:50,000 --> 01:20:53,519
Speaker 1: and so that's probably a conduit to the north. Yes, um,

1387
01:20:54,040 --> 01:20:56,839
Speaker 1: those Yeah, the trade routes that were converging in Michigan

1388
01:20:56,840 --> 01:20:59,400
Speaker 1: were kind of the source of that. And then it's

1389
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:01,760
Speaker 1: a great theory. I'm gonna starting to tell people that

1390
01:21:01,760 --> 01:21:03,400
Speaker 1: that's what it is. Yeah, you should. I mean, as

1391
01:21:03,400 --> 01:21:05,880
Speaker 1: far as we understand that is, that is the case.

1392
01:21:06,800 --> 01:21:09,640
Speaker 1: There was a wolverine that was treed in Michigan, and

1393
01:21:09,920 --> 01:21:14,120
Speaker 1: I think it was two thousand, like two thousand and eight,

1394
01:21:15,240 --> 01:21:19,200
Speaker 1: and some guys were out coyote hunting and they had

1395
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 1: dogs with them and they they ran this this animal

1396
01:21:22,760 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 1: into a tree and fortunately they realized that it was

1397
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:28,280
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously they knew it was not a coyote

1398
01:21:28,320 --> 01:21:30,880
Speaker 1: because it was up a tree. But fortunately they didn't

1399
01:21:30,960 --> 01:21:33,120
Speaker 1: shoot it. Speaking of shooting things out of trees, they

1400
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:35,080
Speaker 1: did not do that. They called the game in fish department.

1401
01:21:35,080 --> 01:21:38,080
Speaker 1: They were like, I think this is a wolverine, And

1402
01:21:38,320 --> 01:21:40,720
Speaker 1: sure enough it was. And there was a math and

1403
01:21:40,760 --> 01:21:44,360
Speaker 1: science teacher from the local area who set up some

1404
01:21:44,400 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 1: camera traps and decided to track this this wolverine. He

1405
01:21:49,120 --> 01:21:52,839
Speaker 1: was baiting his traps with chicken and um, so obviously

1406
01:21:52,880 --> 01:21:55,920
Speaker 1: that was a big incentive for this this wolverine. UM.

1407
01:21:56,280 --> 01:21:58,160
Speaker 1: And she would show up on the camera with a

1408
01:21:58,200 --> 01:22:02,000
Speaker 1: whole bunch of raccoons. Apparently she had some raccoon buddies

1409
01:22:02,000 --> 01:22:03,360
Speaker 1: she was just like hanging out with or they were

1410
01:22:03,400 --> 01:22:06,360
Speaker 1: all drawn to the chicken. I don't know. Yeah, um,

1411
01:22:06,760 --> 01:22:08,840
Speaker 1: but they seemed to be very tolerant of each other,

1412
01:22:08,960 --> 01:22:13,960
Speaker 1: and they he continued to monitor her. The teacher continued

1413
01:22:14,000 --> 01:22:17,920
Speaker 1: to monitor her until in twenty and ten or early

1414
01:22:17,920 --> 01:22:21,880
Speaker 1: twenty eleven she died of congestive heart failure. So they

1415
01:22:21,880 --> 01:22:23,880
Speaker 1: were able to find her body and neck cropsy it,

1416
01:22:23,960 --> 01:22:26,280
Speaker 1: and that's how they knew that she was a female.

1417
01:22:26,320 --> 01:22:29,240
Speaker 1: And you know, they know how she died. They ran

1418
01:22:29,320 --> 01:22:33,880
Speaker 1: her genetics and she did group with if you exclude

1419
01:22:33,920 --> 01:22:36,599
Speaker 1: Alaskan wolverines. This is my understanding of this. I haven't

1420
01:22:36,600 --> 01:22:39,479
Speaker 1: actually seen this report. But my understanding is that if

1421
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:43,000
Speaker 1: if you exclude Alaskan wolverines from that genetic analysis, she

1422
01:22:43,040 --> 01:22:46,800
Speaker 1: groups with Ontario wolverines, So there is a possibility that

1423
01:22:46,880 --> 01:22:50,920
Speaker 1: she came into Michigan naturally. Um. The theory is that

1424
01:22:50,960 --> 01:22:54,040
Speaker 1: she might have been on like a garbage disposal ship

1425
01:22:54,320 --> 01:22:57,040
Speaker 1: that came down from from Ontario and just jumped off

1426
01:22:57,040 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 1: in Michigan. If you include a Alaskan wolverines in that

1427
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:05,280
Speaker 1: genetic analysis, she I think she groups with Alaskan wolverines,

1428
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:07,320
Speaker 1: and that would suggest that she might actually have been

1429
01:23:07,360 --> 01:23:10,759
Speaker 1: an escape captive animal because that's where that's the genetic

1430
01:23:10,800 --> 01:23:14,479
Speaker 1: grouping for most I know, but they always go that route.

1431
01:23:14,880 --> 01:23:17,080
Speaker 1: That's how they dismissed people that would see mountain lions

1432
01:23:17,120 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 1: in crazy places. For decades, Yeah, skate pets like help

1433
01:23:21,120 --> 01:23:22,920
Speaker 1: a lot of escape, you know what I mean, And

1434
01:23:23,040 --> 01:23:24,760
Speaker 1: after a while it kind of fell apart. But it's

1435
01:23:24,800 --> 01:23:28,280
Speaker 1: like it's like the first thing that but look at

1436
01:23:28,600 --> 01:23:31,280
Speaker 1: crazy places they go, Yeah, I mean, it's not that

1437
01:23:31,439 --> 01:23:34,640
Speaker 1: it's not that unreasonable, it's not that unreasonable. You know

1438
01:23:34,680 --> 01:23:37,120
Speaker 1: why people dismiss those sightings. I mean, those game and

1439
01:23:37,160 --> 01:23:39,720
Speaker 1: fish agencies, they're like Oh my god. The last thing

1440
01:23:39,760 --> 01:23:41,880
Speaker 1: they want to do is have to manage a population

1441
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,559
Speaker 1: of mountain lions or manage a population of wolverines. Like,

1442
01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:46,200
Speaker 1: people are going to freak out. So it's better if

1443
01:23:46,200 --> 01:23:51,600
Speaker 1: we can just have some other explanation for another biologist.

1444
01:23:51,680 --> 01:23:53,760
Speaker 1: And then you got to have like a plan you

1445
01:23:53,840 --> 01:23:56,080
Speaker 1: have like people who are like freaking out about their

1446
01:23:56,120 --> 01:23:58,120
Speaker 1: kids getting eaten at the bus stop or what. You know.

1447
01:23:58,200 --> 01:23:59,920
Speaker 1: You just just a whole host of things. You just

1448
01:24:00,040 --> 01:24:02,440
Speaker 1: then to get one. It's like, well, here's a female

1449
01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:06,640
Speaker 1: that was never d claude, it has babies, it's reproduced

1450
01:24:06,760 --> 01:24:10,479
Speaker 1: multiple times. Yeah, well it's got like porcupine quills embedded

1451
01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:14,360
Speaker 1: in it from like years ago. There wasn't tell me.

1452
01:24:14,360 --> 01:24:17,200
Speaker 1: It's another pet mountain lion from like north or South

1453
01:24:17,240 --> 01:24:20,760
Speaker 1: Dakota that was killed on a highway in Connecticut, you know,

1454
01:24:20,840 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 1: and that clearly was a natural dispersal. So wolverines are

1455
01:24:23,840 --> 01:24:27,040
Speaker 1: capable of those kinds of movements. UM. We have a

1456
01:24:27,080 --> 01:24:30,160
Speaker 1: record of a wolverine who was collared off of Toga

1457
01:24:30,200 --> 01:24:32,479
Speaker 1: Tea Pass in the winter of two thousand and eight.

1458
01:24:33,160 --> 01:24:37,400
Speaker 1: UM he was collared by the Wildlife Conservation Society. His UM,

1459
01:24:37,439 --> 01:24:41,040
Speaker 1: his identifier was M fifty six and he my sister

1460
01:24:41,080 --> 01:24:42,880
Speaker 1: and I tracked him off of Toga Tea Pass in

1461
01:24:43,000 --> 01:24:45,479
Speaker 1: January of two thousand and nine. We heard him, We

1462
01:24:45,520 --> 01:24:49,080
Speaker 1: didn't see him and heard him. Yeah, we had he

1463
01:24:49,120 --> 01:24:50,920
Speaker 1: had a caller, so we went out with the telemetry

1464
01:24:50,920 --> 01:24:54,400
Speaker 1: equipment and we could we could hear that. Yeah, not

1465
01:24:54,479 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 1: just him. Um, it was no, these are they are

1466
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:03,920
Speaker 1: gp S callers before at that point, like satellite upload

1467
01:25:03,960 --> 01:25:06,080
Speaker 1: collars were still really really expensive, so most of the

1468
01:25:06,120 --> 01:25:10,800
Speaker 1: callers they were putting out had internal GIS trackers UM

1469
01:25:11,120 --> 01:25:15,560
Speaker 1: and then they would also have the UM shoot telemetry

1470
01:25:15,640 --> 01:25:20,400
Speaker 1: just yeah, the little antenna UM and just and you

1471
01:25:20,439 --> 01:25:23,120
Speaker 1: have to be within range of it, like the animal

1472
01:25:23,160 --> 01:25:25,080
Speaker 1: has to be kind of like within us almost like

1473
01:25:25,080 --> 01:25:27,920
Speaker 1: a site line for you to actually hear that, Like

1474
01:25:27,960 --> 01:25:29,880
Speaker 1: you have to be in proximity to the animal, as

1475
01:25:29,920 --> 01:25:33,519
Speaker 1: opposed to GPSGIS which will upload now they'll upload to

1476
01:25:33,520 --> 01:25:36,000
Speaker 1: a satellite and like download to your phone. So when

1477
01:25:36,000 --> 01:25:37,479
Speaker 1: you heard it, when you payned, it was it just

1478
01:25:37,520 --> 01:25:39,200
Speaker 1: like thick shit. You couldn't tell what was going on

1479
01:25:39,320 --> 01:25:41,240
Speaker 1: or when we were up in some stuff that Yeah,

1480
01:25:41,280 --> 01:25:43,080
Speaker 1: it was a lot of um, there was a lot

1481
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:45,519
Speaker 1: of forest and there was a lot of topography, so

1482
01:25:45,600 --> 01:25:47,439
Speaker 1: I think it might have been he might have been

1483
01:25:47,479 --> 01:25:49,760
Speaker 1: like a couple of ridges over or something like that.

1484
01:25:50,280 --> 01:25:53,000
Speaker 1: Um so we heard him. That was January of two

1485
01:25:53,000 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 1: thousand and nine, and then they were flying um flights

1486
01:25:57,240 --> 01:26:00,240
Speaker 1: like once so every couple weeks or something to it

1487
01:26:00,320 --> 01:26:03,479
Speaker 1: or where he was. And this happens a lot, especially

1488
01:26:03,520 --> 01:26:05,800
Speaker 1: with young male wolverines, like you'll put a collar on

1489
01:26:05,880 --> 01:26:08,960
Speaker 1: him and you'll fly and then you'll never hear from

1490
01:26:09,000 --> 01:26:10,760
Speaker 1: them again. They'll just disappear one day and you have

1491
01:26:10,800 --> 01:26:14,120
Speaker 1: no idea where they went. In this case, the guy

1492
01:26:14,160 --> 01:26:17,639
Speaker 1: who had the plane flew down the wind River Range

1493
01:26:17,640 --> 01:26:20,880
Speaker 1: and picked up this M fifty six at the southern

1494
01:26:20,960 --> 01:26:23,160
Speaker 1: end of the of the wind River Range, and the

1495
01:26:23,160 --> 01:26:25,439
Speaker 1: wolverine community was kind of all a buzz because like,

1496
01:26:25,479 --> 01:26:27,840
Speaker 1: at that point we didn't have any definite evidence that

1497
01:26:27,880 --> 01:26:29,680
Speaker 1: there were wolverines in the wind River Range, so we

1498
01:26:29,720 --> 01:26:32,640
Speaker 1: were like, great, he's like colonizing a new range. And

1499
01:26:32,680 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 1: then they flew again a few weeks later and he

1500
01:26:35,920 --> 01:26:37,840
Speaker 1: wasn't there anymore, and they were like, oh my god,

1501
01:26:37,840 --> 01:26:41,360
Speaker 1: did his collar malfunction? Like where did he go? What happened?

1502
01:26:42,240 --> 01:26:44,320
Speaker 1: So we gave him up as like another wolverine that

1503
01:26:44,320 --> 01:26:47,920
Speaker 1: we were never gonna know anything about. A few weeks later,

1504
01:26:48,200 --> 01:26:52,000
Speaker 1: there was a rancher in central Wyoming who went out

1505
01:26:52,040 --> 01:26:55,920
Speaker 1: to look at a cow carcass and there was a

1506
01:26:55,960 --> 01:26:58,960
Speaker 1: wolverine on the cow carcass. This is way outside of

1507
01:26:58,960 --> 01:27:03,400
Speaker 1: what is modeled verine habitat. And again luckily, this guy

1508
01:27:03,600 --> 01:27:07,120
Speaker 1: was like, oh that's weird and called Wyoming Game and Fish.

1509
01:27:07,200 --> 01:27:09,800
Speaker 1: They called the pilot, They went down and flew sure enough,

1510
01:27:09,800 --> 01:27:12,040
Speaker 1: it was M fifty six, And at that point, the

1511
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:15,240
Speaker 1: whole environment or whole wolverine research Commune's like, oh my god,

1512
01:27:15,560 --> 01:27:19,599
Speaker 1: this animal is going to go to Colorado. And there

1513
01:27:19,640 --> 01:27:23,560
Speaker 1: had been no definite recorded resident wolverines in Colorado for

1514
01:27:23,560 --> 01:27:26,280
Speaker 1: about one hundred years. So for a few months all

1515
01:27:26,280 --> 01:27:28,439
Speaker 1: of us were just like, where's M fifty six? Where

1516
01:27:28,520 --> 01:27:30,360
Speaker 1: is he now? Where is he now? How is he

1517
01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:32,519
Speaker 1: going to get across the interstate? Shoot he might get hit?

1518
01:27:32,920 --> 01:27:34,960
Speaker 1: And it was I think it was Memorial Day. He

1519
01:27:35,000 --> 01:27:37,960
Speaker 1: went across the interstate and sure enough went into Colorado,

1520
01:27:38,760 --> 01:27:43,120
Speaker 1: and his transmitter remained online until two twelve. People would

1521
01:27:43,120 --> 01:27:45,439
Speaker 1: see him periodically in Colorado, so we knew where he

1522
01:27:45,520 --> 01:27:50,360
Speaker 1: was he went all over Colorado through Rocky Mountain National Park.

1523
01:27:50,560 --> 01:27:54,200
Speaker 1: He did, yeah, and people would photograph him there. You know,

1524
01:27:54,320 --> 01:27:57,200
Speaker 1: he just was enjoying his time as a mountaineer. In

1525
01:27:57,240 --> 01:28:00,599
Speaker 1: twenty twelve, his transmitter died and we were like, well,

1526
01:28:00,760 --> 01:28:03,880
Speaker 1: who knows where he is, uh, but maybe people will

1527
01:28:03,920 --> 01:28:07,720
Speaker 1: continue to see him. In twenty sixteen, somebody picked up

1528
01:28:07,720 --> 01:28:09,960
Speaker 1: a photo or saw wolverine and took a photo of

1529
01:28:10,000 --> 01:28:14,120
Speaker 1: a wolverine running across a field in um Northern Montana

1530
01:28:15,000 --> 01:28:18,160
Speaker 1: and in Northern Montana. I do not know for sure

1531
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:19,840
Speaker 1: that is M fifty six, but I do know that

1532
01:28:19,880 --> 01:28:22,479
Speaker 1: a straight line trajectory from from that sighting. A couple

1533
01:28:22,439 --> 01:28:24,160
Speaker 1: of weeks later, I think it was in April of

1534
01:28:24,160 --> 01:28:28,519
Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. UM, there was a ranch hand in North

1535
01:28:28,600 --> 01:28:31,200
Speaker 1: Dakota who came out into his pasture and saw an

1536
01:28:31,240 --> 01:28:35,320
Speaker 1: animal in with the cows and unfortunately shot it um

1537
01:28:35,400 --> 01:28:37,640
Speaker 1: and put it. He apparently didn't know what it was.

1538
01:28:37,680 --> 01:28:40,840
Speaker 1: He put it on Facebook. He's like, you know, I

1539
01:28:40,880 --> 01:28:43,639
Speaker 1: shot this critter in my in with my cows this morning.

1540
01:28:43,640 --> 01:28:46,240
Speaker 1: And people on Facebook were like, dude, that's a wolverine,

1541
01:28:46,280 --> 01:28:48,200
Speaker 1: like call game and fish, and so they came in

1542
01:28:48,280 --> 01:28:52,960
Speaker 1: they netcropsied the animal. And we also um implant transmitters

1543
01:28:53,040 --> 01:28:56,559
Speaker 1: when we call wolverines, because you know, they're built like

1544
01:28:56,560 --> 01:28:59,360
Speaker 1: football players. They can shrug those collars, shrug those collars

1545
01:28:59,400 --> 01:29:03,479
Speaker 1: off like relatively easily. And so when they opened up

1546
01:29:03,560 --> 01:29:05,760
Speaker 1: his abdomen, they found the transmitter in there, and that

1547
01:29:05,800 --> 01:29:10,439
Speaker 1: was m fifty six. Yeah. So from okay, yeah, just

1548
01:29:10,479 --> 01:29:12,559
Speaker 1: do a quick run through. Yeah, from where he was

1549
01:29:12,600 --> 01:29:16,960
Speaker 1: collared on Tokte Pass to Colorado is a straight line

1550
01:29:16,960 --> 01:29:19,280
Speaker 1: distance of like five hundred miles. He certainly was not

1551
01:29:19,360 --> 01:29:21,640
Speaker 1: traveling in a straight line during that time. From his

1552
01:29:21,720 --> 01:29:25,200
Speaker 1: last known sighting location in Colorado to the place where

1553
01:29:25,240 --> 01:29:27,880
Speaker 1: he was shot in North Dakota is seven hundred straight

1554
01:29:27,920 --> 01:29:31,160
Speaker 1: line now, and did he ever did that wolverine ever

1555
01:29:31,240 --> 01:29:34,439
Speaker 1: run into a wolverine? Who knows? I mean, there's two

1556
01:29:34,560 --> 01:29:37,280
Speaker 1: there's two ways that you can speculate about this. Of course,

1557
01:29:37,320 --> 01:29:41,479
Speaker 1: a male wolverine when he's dispersing, is probably primarily interested

1558
01:29:41,520 --> 01:29:45,000
Speaker 1: in finding a place with a female wolverine, preferably not

1559
01:29:45,040 --> 01:29:47,479
Speaker 1: his mother, to avoid that Oedipus thing that we were

1560
01:29:47,479 --> 01:29:50,400
Speaker 1: talking about at the outside of the program. So he

1561
01:29:50,479 --> 01:29:52,559
Speaker 1: wants to go as far as he can from his

1562
01:29:52,840 --> 01:29:55,960
Speaker 1: natal area to find another area that has female wolverines

1563
01:29:56,000 --> 01:30:00,240
Speaker 1: in it. The fact that he didn't stick anywhere either

1564
01:30:00,320 --> 01:30:03,400
Speaker 1: suggests that there were no female wolverines in those areas,

1565
01:30:03,560 --> 01:30:05,960
Speaker 1: or it suggests that there was another male wolverine in

1566
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:10,120
Speaker 1: that area that you know, booted him out all the

1567
01:30:10,240 --> 01:30:14,559
Speaker 1: highways he crossed without getting ahead, And I hate, I

1568
01:30:14,640 --> 01:30:16,720
Speaker 1: hate to think that he ended the way that he

1569
01:30:16,760 --> 01:30:19,439
Speaker 1: did because he's truly like he's one of those wolverines

1570
01:30:19,479 --> 01:30:22,679
Speaker 1: whose story we actually know, which is really rare. Most

1571
01:30:22,680 --> 01:30:24,479
Speaker 1: of the time wolverines are out doing this stuff, and

1572
01:30:24,479 --> 01:30:26,360
Speaker 1: I'm sure they've done even more amazing stuff and we

1573
01:30:26,400 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 1: just don't know about it. But this happens to be

1574
01:30:28,240 --> 01:30:31,719
Speaker 1: a wolverine who's who's famous? You know. I get letters

1575
01:30:31,760 --> 01:30:33,920
Speaker 1: from school kids who are like, where's him fifty six?

1576
01:30:33,960 --> 01:30:35,280
Speaker 1: What happened to him? And then I have to write

1577
01:30:35,280 --> 01:30:37,720
Speaker 1: to a classroom of fourth graders like, oh, yeah, it's

1578
01:30:37,720 --> 01:30:39,640
Speaker 1: not like things that going to kill a cow anyway.

1579
01:30:39,760 --> 01:30:42,920
Speaker 1: I know, I'm definitely not. That's another thing from from

1580
01:30:42,960 --> 01:30:44,920
Speaker 1: the Mongolia work. Like I talked to a lot of

1581
01:30:44,920 --> 01:30:48,439
Speaker 1: people about livestock conflict with wolverines, and there they laugh

1582
01:30:48,479 --> 01:30:50,640
Speaker 1: about that. They're like, this is the only way a

1583
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:54,880
Speaker 1: wolverine could kill of like healthy livestock animal, as if

1584
01:30:54,920 --> 01:30:57,960
Speaker 1: it wasn't actually healthy, you know, so, Um, it was

1585
01:30:58,000 --> 01:31:01,240
Speaker 1: definitely not a threat to wild he went that fart.

1586
01:31:01,240 --> 01:31:03,840
Speaker 1: That's the thing about all this. Oh sorry, well, no, no,

1587
01:31:03,880 --> 01:31:05,400
Speaker 1: go ahead. But I was just gonna say, we should

1588
01:31:05,479 --> 01:31:09,559
Speaker 1: talk about their viciousness, right because that's what everybody likes

1589
01:31:09,560 --> 01:31:11,519
Speaker 1: to talk about. And everybody has a story and I

1590
01:31:11,560 --> 01:31:13,559
Speaker 1: think it was even in our notes that there's a

1591
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:16,280
Speaker 1: moose that was taken down by a wolverine, and everybody

1592
01:31:16,320 --> 01:31:18,800
Speaker 1: there's some story where a grizzly bear has a keel

1593
01:31:18,840 --> 01:31:21,400
Speaker 1: and the wolverine runs the grizzly bear off because they're

1594
01:31:21,400 --> 01:31:24,600
Speaker 1: so And then we should also talk about their territoriality,

1595
01:31:24,880 --> 01:31:28,200
Speaker 1: mating behavior, all the other great things in our notes

1596
01:31:29,080 --> 01:31:33,640
Speaker 1: on I just want to observe though, Um, there's not

1597
01:31:33,720 --> 01:31:36,679
Speaker 1: that many, Like, we don't have that many critters run

1598
01:31:36,680 --> 01:31:38,840
Speaker 1: around with collars on them. So you go and put

1599
01:31:38,840 --> 01:31:40,720
Speaker 1: a collar on something, and how many I mean, how

1600
01:31:40,720 --> 01:31:42,680
Speaker 1: many wolverines in America are run around the collar on

1601
01:31:42,720 --> 01:31:46,040
Speaker 1: them right now? Oh? Very very few. How you hav

1602
01:31:47,520 --> 01:31:50,680
Speaker 1: what about the one you don't know about exactly. I mean, statistically,

1603
01:31:50,720 --> 01:31:52,639
Speaker 1: what about the one that like isn't wearing a collar

1604
01:31:52,680 --> 01:31:55,599
Speaker 1: that how many are in the lower forty eight like

1605
01:31:55,720 --> 01:31:59,400
Speaker 1: right now? Oh gosh. Um, So this is a really

1606
01:31:59,400 --> 01:32:02,360
Speaker 1: tricky question to answer because there have not been the

1607
01:32:02,439 --> 01:32:05,639
Speaker 1: kind of long term, consistent studies over a wide enough

1608
01:32:05,680 --> 01:32:09,559
Speaker 1: area to really give us a good idea of how

1609
01:32:09,600 --> 01:32:12,280
Speaker 1: many there are. Do this for me? I know you

1610
01:32:12,320 --> 01:32:14,559
Speaker 1: guys whole every time you deal with the biologist, they

1611
01:32:14,560 --> 01:32:19,759
Speaker 1: do they played this game. Okay, pretensity is holding a gun,

1612
01:32:19,640 --> 01:32:24,519
Speaker 1: and tell tell Brody fill this sentence out. I would

1613
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:28,639
Speaker 1: be surprised to hear there are more than blank, and

1614
01:32:28,680 --> 01:32:32,880
Speaker 1: I would be surprised to hear there are less than blank. Okay,

1615
01:32:33,560 --> 01:32:36,120
Speaker 1: I would be surprised to hear that there are more

1616
01:32:36,240 --> 01:32:41,240
Speaker 1: than three hundred and maybe twenty five in the lower

1617
01:32:41,360 --> 01:32:45,840
Speaker 1: forty eight close, good number. I'm going to give you

1618
01:32:45,880 --> 01:32:48,519
Speaker 1: a really precise number in a moment, so I will

1619
01:32:48,560 --> 01:32:50,920
Speaker 1: not do the biologist game all the way through this

1620
01:32:50,920 --> 01:32:54,120
Speaker 1: this little spiel. Um, I would be extremely surprised if

1621
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:59,639
Speaker 1: there were more than like three hundred and fifty. Yeah,

1622
01:32:59,640 --> 01:33:03,360
Speaker 1: and I'm we typically have said three hundred animals that's

1623
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:05,479
Speaker 1: the number that we use. I've upped it a little

1624
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:08,439
Speaker 1: bit because we know that there's a reproducing population now

1625
01:33:08,560 --> 01:33:12,280
Speaker 1: in the Cascades which was not there at the time

1626
01:33:12,280 --> 01:33:14,720
Speaker 1: that we initially were estimating how many were in the

1627
01:33:14,760 --> 01:33:18,800
Speaker 1: lower forty eight. There's also there was one wolverine in

1628
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:22,360
Speaker 1: the Sierra Nevada in California, which brings me back to

1629
01:33:22,360 --> 01:33:24,200
Speaker 1: it as something I should have talked about before when

1630
01:33:24,240 --> 01:33:27,040
Speaker 1: we were talking about the original range and you know

1631
01:33:27,160 --> 01:33:30,320
Speaker 1: range contraction. So why why was it that M fifty

1632
01:33:30,360 --> 01:33:32,439
Speaker 1: six was the first wolverine in Colorado in a century

1633
01:33:32,439 --> 01:33:34,639
Speaker 1: and the first wolverine in North Dakota in a century.

1634
01:33:35,160 --> 01:33:39,759
Speaker 1: That's because when there were predator control programs primarily against

1635
01:33:39,760 --> 01:33:43,479
Speaker 1: wolves in the ear the late nineteenth and early twentieth century,

1636
01:33:44,200 --> 01:33:46,360
Speaker 1: part of that was poison carcasses. Right, you can put

1637
01:33:46,360 --> 01:33:47,920
Speaker 1: out a lot of poison carcasses to try to get

1638
01:33:48,000 --> 01:33:51,000
Speaker 1: rid of the wolves. And wolverines are a naturally rare,

1639
01:33:51,200 --> 01:33:54,400
Speaker 1: sparsely distributed animal on the landscape, and they are really

1640
01:33:54,439 --> 01:33:58,200
Speaker 1: really good at sniffing out dead animals. And Alaska's wolf

1641
01:33:58,200 --> 01:34:02,240
Speaker 1: man when he's checking his wolf poison, yeah, yeah, real common. Yeah,

1642
01:34:02,320 --> 01:34:05,960
Speaker 1: So it's like five wolves and two wolverines. Yeah, so

1643
01:34:06,080 --> 01:34:08,760
Speaker 1: that just wiped wolverines out of the Lower forty eight

1644
01:34:08,800 --> 01:34:11,000
Speaker 1: all the way back up to the Canadian border. And

1645
01:34:11,040 --> 01:34:13,240
Speaker 1: what you've seen since the middle of the twentieth century

1646
01:34:13,320 --> 01:34:16,760
Speaker 1: is recolonization. So you have that effect that you were

1647
01:34:16,800 --> 01:34:20,400
Speaker 1: talking about where wolverines are coming back into unoccupied habitat

1648
01:34:20,479 --> 01:34:23,960
Speaker 1: and so there's a pretty sharp population increase because they

1649
01:34:24,000 --> 01:34:29,520
Speaker 1: are this is like a wonderland for wolverine actually filling in. Yeah,

1650
01:34:29,560 --> 01:34:34,160
Speaker 1: so that's that's the that's what happened there. Now there's

1651
01:34:34,240 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 1: also an effective population, which is the number of adults

1652
01:34:38,439 --> 01:34:42,280
Speaker 1: that are actually contributing genes to the population. And there

1653
01:34:42,560 --> 01:34:44,880
Speaker 1: this we can actually get a fairly precise number on

1654
01:34:45,200 --> 01:34:47,920
Speaker 1: because we can use genetics to do it. And so

1655
01:34:48,000 --> 01:34:50,280
Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine, there was a study that

1656
01:34:50,400 --> 01:34:52,840
Speaker 1: was done out of the Rocky Mountain Research Station which

1657
01:34:52,880 --> 01:34:55,439
Speaker 1: took all of the genetic samples from wolverines in the

1658
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:58,439
Speaker 1: Lower forty eight or in the US Rockies actually and

1659
01:34:58,680 --> 01:35:02,160
Speaker 1: analyze the number of contributing reproductive adults and that number

1660
01:35:02,320 --> 01:35:07,840
Speaker 1: was somewhere between like thirty nine and fifty two. So

1661
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:12,280
Speaker 1: the adults are females adults. So these are territorial adults

1662
01:35:12,320 --> 01:35:16,280
Speaker 1: who are actually contributing to the population through reproduction. So

1663
01:35:16,320 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 1: you can have three hundred animals on the landscape, but

1664
01:35:18,400 --> 01:35:20,640
Speaker 1: two hundred and fifty of them are extraneous. They're not

1665
01:35:20,720 --> 01:35:24,320
Speaker 1: actually occupying a territory. They're not successful enough to reproduce.

1666
01:35:24,760 --> 01:35:31,160
Speaker 1: Which makes managing the species in this situation where they

1667
01:35:31,240 --> 01:35:34,160
Speaker 1: are living in islands of habitat that are widely separated

1668
01:35:34,200 --> 01:35:36,880
Speaker 1: because most of where they are is on the mountaintops, right,

1669
01:35:37,320 --> 01:35:40,000
Speaker 1: it makes managing the population a lot more complicated than

1670
01:35:40,040 --> 01:35:42,759
Speaker 1: it does in a place like Alaska, where basically everything

1671
01:35:42,800 --> 01:35:46,000
Speaker 1: is wolverine habitat. Right, You're managing populations and you have

1672
01:35:46,080 --> 01:35:49,720
Speaker 1: to maintain dispersal corridors. You have to make sure that

1673
01:35:49,800 --> 01:35:53,960
Speaker 1: reproductive adults are occupying these mountain ranges at a pretty

1674
01:35:54,000 --> 01:35:57,559
Speaker 1: consistent rate to continue to produce offspring, to disperse to

1675
01:35:57,600 --> 01:36:00,280
Speaker 1: new areas and so on and so forth. So is

1676
01:36:00,360 --> 01:36:03,600
Speaker 1: the carrying capacity there in the lower forty eight for

1677
01:36:03,640 --> 01:36:05,400
Speaker 1: there to be a lot more of them or is

1678
01:36:05,439 --> 01:36:08,800
Speaker 1: it like there's only a limited number that could ever

1679
01:36:08,920 --> 01:36:11,800
Speaker 1: live down here now? Yeah, precisely, Krent and I were

1680
01:36:11,840 --> 01:36:14,519
Speaker 1: talking about this. But for people who live here in Bozeman.

1681
01:36:14,680 --> 01:36:17,599
Speaker 1: I like to point to the Bridgers and say that

1682
01:36:17,600 --> 01:36:20,559
Speaker 1: that mountain range could hold maybe one wolverine. They have

1683
01:36:20,640 --> 01:36:24,760
Speaker 1: really huge territories when they're territorial adults. Males can have

1684
01:36:24,880 --> 01:36:27,200
Speaker 1: territories that are up to five hundred square miles. Females

1685
01:36:27,200 --> 01:36:29,920
Speaker 1: can have territories that are up to three hundred square miles.

1686
01:36:29,960 --> 01:36:32,280
Speaker 1: So like, even a range the size of the Bridgers

1687
01:36:32,400 --> 01:36:36,320
Speaker 1: couldn't really serve as an effective population node within the

1688
01:36:36,400 --> 01:36:40,439
Speaker 1: larger meta population because you know, you have you have

1689
01:36:40,520 --> 01:36:43,880
Speaker 1: to buy happenstance. You have to have a female arrived there,

1690
01:36:44,040 --> 01:36:46,479
Speaker 1: decide to stay. You have to have a male arrived

1691
01:36:46,520 --> 01:36:48,639
Speaker 1: there decide to stay. She has to like the male

1692
01:36:48,760 --> 01:36:52,240
Speaker 1: enough to reproduce with him, and then you know they're reproducing,

1693
01:36:52,360 --> 01:36:54,280
Speaker 1: and then they'll send out kits who may or may

1694
01:36:54,280 --> 01:36:57,320
Speaker 1: not make it. You know, those kids have to disperse

1695
01:36:57,360 --> 01:36:59,720
Speaker 1: to some other mountain range, maybe the Crazies, maybe they

1696
01:36:59,800 --> 01:37:02,080
Speaker 1: go down into yellow Stone, maybe they go to the Abzorkers.

1697
01:37:02,080 --> 01:37:05,200
Speaker 1: Who knows. But all of this is like it's really

1698
01:37:05,240 --> 01:37:10,320
Speaker 1: really a delicate balance. And then inherently, because they only

1699
01:37:10,320 --> 01:37:12,599
Speaker 1: occupy these areas that have snow on the ground until

1700
01:37:12,680 --> 01:37:15,400
Speaker 1: May fifteenth. You have a very limited amount of habitat

1701
01:37:16,040 --> 01:37:20,400
Speaker 1: within this area for them to occupy. So there is

1702
01:37:20,439 --> 01:37:22,439
Speaker 1: a natural carrying capacity that they are going to reach,

1703
01:37:22,479 --> 01:37:24,800
Speaker 1: and it is based on habitat. And that also brings

1704
01:37:24,840 --> 01:37:29,040
Speaker 1: us to the kind of the crux of the conservation issue,

1705
01:37:29,080 --> 01:37:31,640
Speaker 1: which is that there are climate models that suggests that

1706
01:37:31,720 --> 01:37:35,120
Speaker 1: Late Springs snowpack is going to decline substantially within the

1707
01:37:35,120 --> 01:37:38,040
Speaker 1: coming century, and so you're really dealing with an expanding

1708
01:37:38,080 --> 01:37:41,920
Speaker 1: population and a contracting amount of habitat for them, which

1709
01:37:41,960 --> 01:37:44,960
Speaker 1: is a really that also makes a management very complicated

1710
01:37:45,000 --> 01:37:49,200
Speaker 1: because it's easy to point to the population between nineteen

1711
01:37:49,320 --> 01:37:52,600
Speaker 1: fifty and now and say like, oh, look, the population

1712
01:37:52,680 --> 01:37:55,920
Speaker 1: is on this great upward trajectory. So wolverines, it looks

1713
01:37:55,960 --> 01:37:57,519
Speaker 1: like they're doing great. But at the same time you

1714
01:37:57,560 --> 01:38:02,400
Speaker 1: have this oncoming, you know, locomotive just like bearing down

1715
01:38:02,400 --> 01:38:05,040
Speaker 1: on them of climate change that's going to contract the habitat.

1716
01:38:05,520 --> 01:38:08,960
Speaker 1: So people who say, oh, the population is increasing and

1717
01:38:09,000 --> 01:38:11,160
Speaker 1: wolverines are doing fine are sort of posed against people

1718
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:13,240
Speaker 1: who are like, but climate change is coming, and yeah,

1719
01:38:13,240 --> 01:38:15,360
Speaker 1: we have a guy. We're going to get into that

1720
01:38:15,479 --> 01:38:20,640
Speaker 1: issue around polar bears where it's where it's you can

1721
01:38:20,680 --> 01:38:24,120
Speaker 1: get like you can get reprimanded by the scientific community

1722
01:38:24,240 --> 01:38:26,360
Speaker 1: for pointing to the fact that polar bear numbers are

1723
01:38:26,400 --> 01:38:30,720
Speaker 1: really strong right now. Yeah, because they like climate activists

1724
01:38:30,760 --> 01:38:33,160
Speaker 1: don't want people to know that polar bear numbers are

1725
01:38:33,160 --> 01:38:35,160
Speaker 1: really strong right now because they feel that then people

1726
01:38:35,200 --> 01:38:38,400
Speaker 1: will become apathetic about climate Yeah, they want to be like,

1727
01:38:38,600 --> 01:38:41,400
Speaker 1: sure they're strong, but trust me, it's going to get bad. Yeah,

1728
01:38:41,520 --> 01:38:44,000
Speaker 1: don't even tell anybody that they're doing well right now

1729
01:38:44,120 --> 01:38:48,600
Speaker 1: because it's counterproductive, as though people can't like be intelligent

1730
01:38:48,760 --> 01:38:51,679
Speaker 1: enough to to like sort this out in their head. Yeah,

1731
01:38:51,720 --> 01:38:54,760
Speaker 1: they want to conceal the information. I think it's I mean,

1732
01:38:54,800 --> 01:38:58,360
Speaker 1: it's a really that is when we talk about climate change.

1733
01:38:58,400 --> 01:39:01,479
Speaker 1: I think it's really interesting that people have decided that

1734
01:39:02,280 --> 01:39:05,559
Speaker 1: charismatic wildlife need to be the root through which human

1735
01:39:05,600 --> 01:39:08,640
Speaker 1: beings should care about climate change. Like you're covered in

1736
01:39:08,640 --> 01:39:10,200
Speaker 1: poison ivy and you've said that you were going to

1737
01:39:10,240 --> 01:39:12,960
Speaker 1: be a committed anti climate change activists now because you

1738
01:39:13,000 --> 01:39:17,000
Speaker 1: don't like to itch right, Like, maybe it's better, Maybe

1739
01:39:17,040 --> 01:39:19,760
Speaker 1: it's better to talk to people about you're going to

1740
01:39:19,920 --> 01:39:25,360
Speaker 1: be getting mosquito bites more poison ivy, you have more pandemics,

1741
01:39:25,479 --> 01:39:27,960
Speaker 1: you're going to have more wildfires, You're gonna have less water,

1742
01:39:28,120 --> 01:39:31,280
Speaker 1: like I don't. I don't know that. I think that

1743
01:39:31,400 --> 01:39:33,800
Speaker 1: it's great to talk about the impending effects of climate

1744
01:39:33,880 --> 01:39:37,320
Speaker 1: change on wildlife, but I don't think it's necessarily the

1745
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:40,200
Speaker 1: best thing to do to try to organize our entire

1746
01:39:41,640 --> 01:39:44,920
Speaker 1: reason for caring about climate change around narratives about wildlife,

1747
01:39:44,920 --> 01:39:46,920
Speaker 1: like you should care because it's coming for your kids

1748
01:39:46,920 --> 01:39:49,160
Speaker 1: and grandkids, and it's going to make their lives worse

1749
01:39:49,320 --> 01:39:52,479
Speaker 1: and more unhappy in small ways like poison ivy, and

1750
01:39:52,560 --> 01:39:55,479
Speaker 1: in very large ways like conflict over water. And you

1751
01:39:55,520 --> 01:39:58,640
Speaker 1: don't want the wolverine app to carry all that bird not,

1752
01:39:58,920 --> 01:40:01,240
Speaker 1: bet don't. I just want people to think that wolverines

1753
01:40:01,280 --> 01:40:03,800
Speaker 1: are cool and they deserve to persist. Because they're cool,

1754
01:40:03,960 --> 01:40:06,800
Speaker 1: and they deserve to persist. They're an awesome animal, and

1755
01:40:06,880 --> 01:40:09,719
Speaker 1: they have a right to be here and to continue

1756
01:40:09,800 --> 01:40:12,200
Speaker 1: to live in the world. You know what, I think,

1757
01:40:12,200 --> 01:40:17,600
Speaker 1: you guys mess up in your world. Um, have you

1758
01:40:17,600 --> 01:40:20,679
Speaker 1: ever read Osborne Russell's Journal of a Trapper? I have not? Okay,

1759
01:40:20,680 --> 01:40:24,280
Speaker 1: A very meticulous note taker, okay, okay, and he combed

1760
01:40:24,280 --> 01:40:27,879
Speaker 1: out what would have been in eighteen twenties. They worked everything,

1761
01:40:27,960 --> 01:40:30,760
Speaker 1: like all the stuff, like all the stuff the app

1762
01:40:30,800 --> 01:40:35,439
Speaker 1: Sorca's Yellowstone, okay, and he took he takes meticulous notes

1763
01:40:35,560 --> 01:40:38,679
Speaker 1: about where they're at, what they saw. He it's interesting

1764
01:40:38,760 --> 01:40:47,400
Speaker 1: he calls wolverine's common. Oh, and he's he's you know,

1765
01:40:48,400 --> 01:40:50,360
Speaker 1: like like his journal is sort of one of the

1766
01:40:50,400 --> 01:40:52,360
Speaker 1: main you know, it's one of the main thing. It's

1767
01:40:52,400 --> 01:40:55,080
Speaker 1: one of the main historical tacts about that era because

1768
01:40:55,080 --> 01:40:59,439
Speaker 1: he was just a fastidious note taker about location, distance counting.

1769
01:41:00,040 --> 01:41:02,360
Speaker 1: You know, it's a little dry at times, but anyways,

1770
01:41:02,800 --> 01:41:05,800
Speaker 1: he describes wolverines as common. Now you know that there's

1771
01:41:05,800 --> 01:41:08,639
Speaker 1: a big debate here about how many grizzlies are here, right,

1772
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:11,240
Speaker 1: And we even had the guy that we had a

1773
01:41:11,240 --> 01:41:15,080
Speaker 1: guy from the USGS, Frank can Member his name, he

1774
01:41:15,160 --> 01:41:17,920
Speaker 1: was in charge of like yeah, he ran the count

1775
01:41:18,040 --> 01:41:22,719
Speaker 1: yeah on grizzlies, okay, And he was saying the model

1776
01:41:23,560 --> 01:41:27,320
Speaker 1: he feels I'm paraphrasing here, so apologies, I'm not gonna

1777
01:41:27,320 --> 01:41:32,960
Speaker 1: mess this up too bad. The models outdated. Their understanding

1778
01:41:33,000 --> 01:41:35,240
Speaker 1: of how big of a territory or breeding age female

1779
01:41:35,280 --> 01:41:43,240
Speaker 1: needed was based on that in the absence of bears. Okay,

1780
01:41:43,320 --> 01:41:48,120
Speaker 1: in the absence of grizzlies, female grizzlies, we're using a

1781
01:41:48,240 --> 01:41:51,040
Speaker 1: much bigger area. So when you take all the suitable

1782
01:41:51,080 --> 01:41:53,080
Speaker 1: habitat and chunk it up into like, well, we know

1783
01:41:53,120 --> 01:41:55,639
Speaker 1: a female needs a chunk of ground this big whatever

1784
01:41:55,640 --> 01:41:58,320
Speaker 1: square mile, hundred square miles, whatever it is. Every breeding

1785
01:41:58,320 --> 01:42:02,200
Speaker 1: age female needs that. So how many of these hexagons

1786
01:42:04,320 --> 01:42:07,479
Speaker 1: fit in the landmass? Okay, So like, here's the area

1787
01:42:07,600 --> 01:42:09,680
Speaker 1: we know that each let's say each wolverine wants three

1788
01:42:09,720 --> 01:42:12,000
Speaker 1: hundred square miles, and so we take and you make

1789
01:42:12,080 --> 01:42:13,680
Speaker 1: like a shape, and you go like, how many of

1790
01:42:13,680 --> 01:42:17,160
Speaker 1: these shapes fit in this place? But it might be

1791
01:42:17,320 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 1: that you're basing an assumption that is bait, Like your

1792
01:42:20,960 --> 01:42:24,760
Speaker 1: assumption about what they need is based on low density

1793
01:42:25,200 --> 01:42:28,120
Speaker 1: and what they can use if they have it. Let

1794
01:42:28,160 --> 01:42:30,960
Speaker 1: me put it to you another way. I pulled you

1795
01:42:31,000 --> 01:42:33,439
Speaker 1: know how a wild raspberry girls around here in the

1796
01:42:33,479 --> 01:42:37,000
Speaker 1: high country. Yeah, okay, he's grown in the rocks right

1797
01:42:37,000 --> 01:42:39,479
Speaker 1: in a scree slide, and he's got like he's got

1798
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:42,240
Speaker 1: like four inches of vine and a berry. Yeah. Okay.

1799
01:42:42,880 --> 01:42:45,080
Speaker 1: I took one of those my kids and buried at

1800
01:42:45,120 --> 01:42:47,640
Speaker 1: my yard. Yeah, and my raspberry patch, I started to

1801
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:49,559
Speaker 1: fertilize it. I guess I'll make that s bitches now

1802
01:42:50,520 --> 01:42:54,920
Speaker 1: your entire Okay, So, meaning like, if there's no wolverines

1803
01:42:54,960 --> 01:42:57,760
Speaker 1: around because we poison them all off one hundred fifty

1804
01:42:57,840 --> 01:43:00,479
Speaker 1: years ago, and you look and be like, this female

1805
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:04,080
Speaker 1: uses three hundred square miles, Well maybe in fifty years

1806
01:43:05,800 --> 01:43:07,479
Speaker 1: she's gonna be like it was sweet. I used to

1807
01:43:07,520 --> 01:43:09,439
Speaker 1: have the whole mountain range to myself, but I now

1808
01:43:09,680 --> 01:43:12,439
Speaker 1: am like a little more boxed in. And the model's

1809
01:43:12,520 --> 01:43:14,920
Speaker 1: wrong because this guy was even saying like he doesn't

1810
01:43:14,920 --> 01:43:17,560
Speaker 1: believe his own model, but he doesn't have the autonomy

1811
01:43:17,600 --> 01:43:19,559
Speaker 1: to update the model. So you'll say, like, oh, how

1812
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:22,839
Speaker 1: many grizzies are in the Greater Yellostone ecosystem? Seven hundred

1813
01:43:23,000 --> 01:43:27,160
Speaker 1: probably more? Yeah, well how many more than that? But

1814
01:43:27,160 --> 01:43:29,439
Speaker 1: I won't tell you how many? Yeah, because I can't

1815
01:43:29,479 --> 01:43:32,320
Speaker 1: independently update the model even though we realize our model

1816
01:43:32,400 --> 01:43:36,519
Speaker 1: was wrong. Yeah. So meaning why did Osborne Russell think

1817
01:43:36,560 --> 01:43:39,240
Speaker 1: they were common? So I have two I have well,

1818
01:43:39,280 --> 01:43:40,600
Speaker 1: I have a couple things to say about that. I

1819
01:43:40,960 --> 01:43:43,479
Speaker 1: definitely think I'm so glad that you guys were talking

1820
01:43:43,520 --> 01:43:46,680
Speaker 1: at the beginning about that colonization effect because and this

1821
01:43:46,720 --> 01:43:48,360
Speaker 1: is where I'm going to tie it back to Mongolia.

1822
01:43:48,400 --> 01:43:51,160
Speaker 1: I remember I was saying that in Mongolia you have

1823
01:43:51,160 --> 01:43:54,880
Speaker 1: wolverines outside of the habitat model, and that this was

1824
01:43:54,920 --> 01:44:00,920
Speaker 1: really puzzling to a lot of people when we talk

1825
01:44:00,920 --> 01:44:05,559
Speaker 1: about wolverine territories, that's the need that that's the amount

1826
01:44:05,600 --> 01:44:08,719
Speaker 1: of a space that a territorial adult needs. But within

1827
01:44:09,000 --> 01:44:13,680
Speaker 1: the territorial adults territory, her kits are also going to

1828
01:44:13,680 --> 01:44:15,840
Speaker 1: be living for up to a year and a half,

1829
01:44:16,200 --> 01:44:19,599
Speaker 1: So we haven't really talked about how the reproductive biology works.

1830
01:44:19,640 --> 01:44:22,200
Speaker 1: And um, you know, coming back to the whole thing

1831
01:44:22,200 --> 01:44:24,400
Speaker 1: about whether they're attacking their dads or just killing some

1832
01:44:24,479 --> 01:44:29,000
Speaker 1: old man that they meet. Um, wolverines have their kits

1833
01:44:29,200 --> 01:44:31,920
Speaker 1: and then they have this like interesting model of like

1834
01:44:32,040 --> 01:44:36,160
Speaker 1: long term parental care, which is pretty uncommon in in

1835
01:44:36,439 --> 01:44:40,400
Speaker 1: large mammals. So they they actually let their kids hang

1836
01:44:40,439 --> 01:44:43,800
Speaker 1: out in their territory for up to eighteen months after

1837
01:44:44,439 --> 01:44:48,840
Speaker 1: the kids are born, typically two. They can have up

1838
01:44:48,880 --> 01:44:52,720
Speaker 1: to four. So if you have a female wolverine who

1839
01:44:52,760 --> 01:44:55,479
Speaker 1: has four kids, if she's or if her territory is

1840
01:44:55,520 --> 01:44:58,439
Speaker 1: really rich and she has the body fat and the

1841
01:44:58,479 --> 01:45:01,320
Speaker 1: condition to have four kids. She will become pregnant with

1842
01:45:01,360 --> 01:45:03,479
Speaker 1: four kids, and then she will have those four kids,

1843
01:45:03,520 --> 01:45:05,639
Speaker 1: and then they will be running around in her territory

1844
01:45:05,760 --> 01:45:09,439
Speaker 1: and her partner's territory for you know, quite quite some time.

1845
01:45:10,320 --> 01:45:13,240
Speaker 1: So now there's six wolverines, but it's one females home,

1846
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:16,920
Speaker 1: one female's territory, two breeding adults, and four of those

1847
01:45:16,960 --> 01:45:21,040
Speaker 1: extraneous animals. So I we see this in Mongolia too,

1848
01:45:21,120 --> 01:45:23,200
Speaker 1: where again, like you set up a camera and you

1849
01:45:23,240 --> 01:45:25,519
Speaker 1: just get wolverines on the camera, and that's kind of

1850
01:45:25,600 --> 01:45:29,639
Speaker 1: unheard of here in the US Rockies at this point.

1851
01:45:30,640 --> 01:45:33,519
Speaker 1: I think that part of the reason is because we

1852
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:37,360
Speaker 1: are still in a recolonization phase where the landscape is

1853
01:45:37,360 --> 01:45:40,720
Speaker 1: not fully saturated with wolverines. And once you get a

1854
01:45:41,320 --> 01:45:46,280
Speaker 1: really interconnected metapopulation where all of the territories are occupied

1855
01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:49,320
Speaker 1: it with reproductive adults and they're all sending out kits,

1856
01:45:49,760 --> 01:45:51,960
Speaker 1: you do get a lot of wolverines that are running

1857
01:45:51,960 --> 01:45:54,880
Speaker 1: through habitat that is not wolverine habitat. Because those are young,

1858
01:45:54,920 --> 01:45:57,559
Speaker 1: they're dispersers. They're like the equivalent of us when we're

1859
01:45:57,560 --> 01:45:59,160
Speaker 1: in college. They're just kind of like gooping off and

1860
01:45:59,160 --> 01:46:01,800
Speaker 1: trying to figure things out out going here, and they're

1861
01:46:02,040 --> 01:46:04,880
Speaker 1: trying to find a place to be. And then this

1862
01:46:04,920 --> 01:46:07,760
Speaker 1: may also pertain to why you see wolverines in the

1863
01:46:07,840 --> 01:46:12,080
Speaker 1: historical record in places like Maine potentially, or in Michigan,

1864
01:46:12,360 --> 01:46:14,320
Speaker 1: if you did have live wolverines, they're part of the

1865
01:46:14,320 --> 01:46:17,479
Speaker 1: reason is because they were coming down from those much

1866
01:46:17,520 --> 01:46:22,200
Speaker 1: more robust, reproductive populations that are centered further to the north.

1867
01:46:22,400 --> 01:46:24,479
Speaker 1: So it's a classic sort of source sink. You know,

1868
01:46:24,560 --> 01:46:27,360
Speaker 1: there's there are areas of really good habitat, and there

1869
01:46:27,360 --> 01:46:32,240
Speaker 1: are areas of marginal habitat, and wolverines can reproduce outside

1870
01:46:32,320 --> 01:46:37,960
Speaker 1: of optimal habitat. So that may fifteenth spring snowpack habitat.

1871
01:46:39,200 --> 01:46:43,880
Speaker 1: Female wolverines give birth in the snow in mid February.

1872
01:46:44,360 --> 01:46:47,240
Speaker 1: So we say, for anybody who hates Valentine's Day and

1873
01:46:47,360 --> 01:46:50,439
Speaker 1: or for anybody who wants another reason to celebrate it

1874
01:46:50,479 --> 01:46:54,200
Speaker 1: even more, we say that Valentine's Day is wolverine birthday.

1875
01:46:54,280 --> 01:47:00,400
Speaker 1: That is the the internationally officially recognized wolverine birthday all day. Yeah,

1876
01:47:00,439 --> 01:47:03,439
Speaker 1: and are they altricial or precocial? Like do they have

1877
01:47:03,520 --> 01:47:08,080
Speaker 1: little hairless babies? They're like they're they're they're they're not hairless,

1878
01:47:08,120 --> 01:47:10,599
Speaker 1: but they're pretty I mean you they can just toss

1879
01:47:10,640 --> 01:47:13,439
Speaker 1: a newborn wolverine out into the world and have it survive.

1880
01:47:14,120 --> 01:47:16,479
Speaker 1: Are they as helpless as like a bear's Yeah, um,

1881
01:47:17,040 --> 01:47:20,519
Speaker 1: probably not as helpless as a bear. Um. But they

1882
01:47:20,640 --> 01:47:23,160
Speaker 1: are in the den, in that snowden with their mother

1883
01:47:23,640 --> 01:47:26,519
Speaker 1: until Mother's Day, so Valentine's Day to Mother's Day, and

1884
01:47:26,560 --> 01:47:28,920
Speaker 1: at that point, after those three months of staying in

1885
01:47:28,920 --> 01:47:32,120
Speaker 1: the snowden, they are pretty much capable of like going

1886
01:47:32,160 --> 01:47:35,640
Speaker 1: out and surviving um, although they still apparently have a

1887
01:47:35,640 --> 01:47:37,360
Speaker 1: lot to learn, which is why they continue to hang

1888
01:47:37,360 --> 01:47:39,559
Speaker 1: out with their parents, sometimes with their moms, sometimes with

1889
01:47:39,560 --> 01:47:42,000
Speaker 1: their dads, sometimes with their sibling, just like kind of

1890
01:47:42,040 --> 01:47:45,320
Speaker 1: exploring the landscape, figuring out how to use resources, you know,

1891
01:47:45,360 --> 01:47:47,800
Speaker 1: whatever it is that wolverines do UM in the course

1892
01:47:47,800 --> 01:47:52,800
Speaker 1: of becoming adult dispersers UM. And so the so to

1893
01:47:52,880 --> 01:47:56,960
Speaker 1: go back to the question about like our biologists underestimating

1894
01:47:57,000 --> 01:47:59,320
Speaker 1: the number of animals on a landscape, I think it

1895
01:47:59,360 --> 01:48:02,160
Speaker 1: does depend on the animal that you're talking about and

1896
01:48:02,200 --> 01:48:04,880
Speaker 1: the model that you're using. There is no doubt that

1897
01:48:04,960 --> 01:48:09,440
Speaker 1: models should be continually updated depending on population density. UM.

1898
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:11,559
Speaker 1: But in the case of wolverines, I think that a

1899
01:48:11,600 --> 01:48:14,160
Speaker 1: lot of the kind of the perception that they are

1900
01:48:14,680 --> 01:48:17,840
Speaker 1: common comes from the fact that if he was if

1901
01:48:17,880 --> 01:48:20,519
Speaker 1: he was in an area where there were reproductive adults,

1902
01:48:21,200 --> 01:48:23,080
Speaker 1: he was probably seeing a lot of wolverines and a

1903
01:48:23,120 --> 01:48:26,160
Speaker 1: lot of wolverines sign just because they were there with

1904
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:28,680
Speaker 1: their with their young. Um, and he's dealing with a

1905
01:48:28,760 --> 01:48:31,440
Speaker 1: lot of carcasses he's dealing with If he's dealing with carcasses,

1906
01:48:31,439 --> 01:48:32,920
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, of course you're going to be like, yeah,

1907
01:48:33,800 --> 01:48:36,080
Speaker 1: they like live off the land in the high country. Ye.

1908
01:48:36,240 --> 01:48:40,639
Speaker 1: So you're exactly right. You're you're creating, and you're probably

1909
01:48:40,640 --> 01:48:43,160
Speaker 1: that you're probably creating in the animals some idea of

1910
01:48:43,160 --> 01:48:45,920
Speaker 1: how to find shit. Oh yeah, I mean association. Right,

1911
01:48:46,040 --> 01:48:48,920
Speaker 1: You can certainly have wolverines who who I mean. They're

1912
01:48:49,000 --> 01:48:52,240
Speaker 1: very smart animals, I think, and they know what's up.

1913
01:48:52,320 --> 01:48:55,280
Speaker 1: Like when you were talking about the wolverines in the

1914
01:48:55,320 --> 01:48:58,160
Speaker 1: Cariboo hunting area, um coming in and like you know,

1915
01:48:58,240 --> 01:49:02,040
Speaker 1: taking pieces of cariboo and stashing the places. That is

1916
01:49:02,120 --> 01:49:04,120
Speaker 1: that those wolverines are smart. They figured out like, oh,

1917
01:49:04,160 --> 01:49:05,880
Speaker 1: there's a food source here, We're gonna come in and

1918
01:49:05,920 --> 01:49:10,719
Speaker 1: we're gonna you know, optimize our interaction with this food source.

1919
01:49:20,720 --> 01:49:23,280
Speaker 1: What's the biggest thing they'll kill without needing to find

1920
01:49:23,280 --> 01:49:28,160
Speaker 1: it already dead? Um. I think there is a report,

1921
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:30,519
Speaker 1: and this is anecdotal. I have not seen the primary

1922
01:49:30,560 --> 01:49:32,559
Speaker 1: source on this, but it's a widespread report that I've

1923
01:49:32,560 --> 01:49:35,160
Speaker 1: heard from multiple wolverine biologists as I was first coming

1924
01:49:35,200 --> 01:49:38,840
Speaker 1: into the field that there was a thirty pound female

1925
01:49:38,880 --> 01:49:43,360
Speaker 1: wolverine in Alaska who killed a full grown moose. Man

1926
01:49:43,560 --> 01:49:46,080
Speaker 1: I heard, I've heard a report. It's in a book

1927
01:49:46,120 --> 01:49:49,080
Speaker 1: I read, and it was the book was a biologist

1928
01:49:49,120 --> 01:49:52,040
Speaker 1: in Fairbanks of one killing a doll sheet, or it

1929
01:49:52,120 --> 01:49:54,400
Speaker 1: was like someone watched it happened or something. I can't remember.

1930
01:49:54,439 --> 01:49:56,240
Speaker 1: I might be mixing it up. I have a friend

1931
01:49:56,439 --> 01:49:59,679
Speaker 1: who was a fellow Peace Corp volunteer in Mongolia who

1932
01:50:00,040 --> 01:50:04,080
Speaker 1: watched two who watched the wolverine charge to our gallium,

1933
01:50:04,200 --> 01:50:06,439
Speaker 1: which are you know, like two hundred pound big horned

1934
01:50:06,520 --> 01:50:09,840
Speaker 1: sheet basically and try to run them off a cliff. Um.

1935
01:50:09,920 --> 01:50:12,840
Speaker 1: So there's like there's no doubt that like they are

1936
01:50:12,880 --> 01:50:15,840
Speaker 1: capable of doing that either through and I think what

1937
01:50:16,000 --> 01:50:18,720
Speaker 1: usually happens with large prey, large ungulate prey is that

1938
01:50:18,760 --> 01:50:22,440
Speaker 1: they're stranded in the snow. Wolverines, of course walk plantigrade.

1939
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:24,720
Speaker 1: They have these big snowshoe feet. They can float up

1940
01:50:24,760 --> 01:50:28,679
Speaker 1: on top of the snow a lot better than um,

1941
01:50:28,720 --> 01:50:32,120
Speaker 1: you know, ungulates and even uh digigrade animals like cats

1942
01:50:32,200 --> 01:50:35,439
Speaker 1: or dogs, which punch through. Um. And so they find

1943
01:50:35,479 --> 01:50:37,479
Speaker 1: these animals that are bogged down in the snow and

1944
01:50:37,479 --> 01:50:43,080
Speaker 1: they plantigrade versus digigrade. Like you're saying, it just doesn't

1945
01:50:43,120 --> 01:50:45,240
Speaker 1: the foot doesn't flex forward and push through or what

1946
01:50:45,400 --> 01:50:49,720
Speaker 1: is it? Sorry? Yeah, So humans and bears and wolverines,

1947
01:50:49,760 --> 01:50:51,880
Speaker 1: we all walk plantigrade. That means we walk with our

1948
01:50:51,920 --> 01:50:56,160
Speaker 1: heels down. Um digigrade animals have evolved to kind of

1949
01:50:56,160 --> 01:50:58,040
Speaker 1: walk up on their toes. So if you look at

1950
01:50:58,040 --> 01:51:00,000
Speaker 1: a cat or a dog, right, they have that little

1951
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:03,720
Speaker 1: like their legs are kind of shape like this. They

1952
01:51:03,840 --> 01:51:06,000
Speaker 1: kind of have that L shape, and that little that

1953
01:51:06,200 --> 01:51:09,519
Speaker 1: the corner of the l is where the heel actually

1954
01:51:09,920 --> 01:51:13,840
Speaker 1: would be if they were walking plantigrade. So, um, when

1955
01:51:13,840 --> 01:51:16,320
Speaker 1: you walk heel down, you've got you know, obviously more

1956
01:51:16,400 --> 01:51:19,320
Speaker 1: surface area. And a wolverine is relatively small. I know,

1957
01:51:19,439 --> 01:51:21,160
Speaker 1: there's a lot of reports that there are like sixty

1958
01:51:21,200 --> 01:51:23,760
Speaker 1: pound wolverines out there, but in this ecosystem, a very

1959
01:51:23,800 --> 01:51:27,040
Speaker 1: large wolverine would be about thirty pounds. That's very large.

1960
01:51:27,439 --> 01:51:31,320
Speaker 1: That's that's pretty substantial. Yeah. Further north, of course they

1961
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:33,839
Speaker 1: get a little bit bigger, up to like maybe forty pounds,

1962
01:51:33,880 --> 01:51:35,760
Speaker 1: but um, you know, they don't they don't get much

1963
01:51:35,760 --> 01:51:37,960
Speaker 1: bigger than that. They look bigger because they've got all

1964
01:51:37,960 --> 01:51:42,560
Speaker 1: that fur, but um, yeah, so they will attack animals

1965
01:51:42,560 --> 01:51:45,120
Speaker 1: that are bogged down in the snow. And there's a

1966
01:51:45,200 --> 01:51:48,240
Speaker 1: video if if listeners want to see this, you can

1967
01:51:48,280 --> 01:51:54,679
Speaker 1: google m like Norwegian wolverine attacking reindeer. It'll probably come up. Yeah.

1968
01:51:54,720 --> 01:51:57,320
Speaker 1: It's like in a snowstorm. The reindeer is kind of

1969
01:51:57,360 --> 01:51:59,519
Speaker 1: blinded and confused by the snow. There was a guy

1970
01:51:59,520 --> 01:52:01,840
Speaker 1: who hap to be like recording this whole thing, and

1971
01:52:01,880 --> 01:52:04,280
Speaker 1: the wolverine just keeps like jumping on the reindeer's back

1972
01:52:04,840 --> 01:52:08,519
Speaker 1: and attacking it and weakening it, and then eventually it dies.

1973
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:10,840
Speaker 1: It's a it's a messy experience. When we're talking about

1974
01:52:10,840 --> 01:52:14,599
Speaker 1: wolverines being vicious. Um, I don't like to promote that

1975
01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:17,200
Speaker 1: image of them because I think, you know, people don't

1976
01:52:17,240 --> 01:52:19,639
Speaker 1: like to try to conserve vicious animals. But I also

1977
01:52:19,680 --> 01:52:21,680
Speaker 1: don't like to skirt around the fact that this is

1978
01:52:22,120 --> 01:52:25,280
Speaker 1: an animal that is carnivorous and it is killing other

1979
01:52:25,320 --> 01:52:29,680
Speaker 1: animals in ways that are pretty pretty gruesome. So, um,

1980
01:52:29,960 --> 01:52:31,600
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of a lot of it

1981
01:52:31,640 --> 01:52:34,160
Speaker 1: seems to be that they just wear these animals down

1982
01:52:34,400 --> 01:52:37,160
Speaker 1: by bleeding them out and attacking them and you know,

1983
01:52:37,600 --> 01:52:39,720
Speaker 1: um yeah, and then they have a food source that

1984
01:52:39,760 --> 01:52:41,719
Speaker 1: they can eat for like a month or so, especially

1985
01:52:41,760 --> 01:52:44,679
Speaker 1: if it stays cold. It's you know, that carcass stays preserved.

1986
01:52:45,080 --> 01:52:47,320
Speaker 1: They know where it is. If it's buried in the snow,

1987
01:52:47,400 --> 01:52:50,400
Speaker 1: so much the better because then other things can't get

1988
01:52:50,439 --> 01:52:53,360
Speaker 1: to it. Did you hear about that collaring project in

1989
01:52:53,600 --> 01:52:57,960
Speaker 1: southeast Alaska where they had they had a bunch of

1990
01:52:57,960 --> 01:53:00,160
Speaker 1: stuff collared in areas they're looking at their eyes, that

1991
01:53:00,200 --> 01:53:02,720
Speaker 1: building a road as the Haynes Highway or whatever. Hell,

1992
01:53:03,560 --> 01:53:07,000
Speaker 1: And they had a collared moose fall into a crevasse,

1993
01:53:09,160 --> 01:53:11,519
Speaker 1: a collared a part of a grizzly bear that was

1994
01:53:11,560 --> 01:53:17,240
Speaker 1: part of the collaring project climbed in there, Scott stuck died,

1995
01:53:18,040 --> 01:53:20,080
Speaker 1: and then a wolverine that was collared as part of

1996
01:53:20,120 --> 01:53:23,040
Speaker 1: the project got in there. And scavenged the carcasses. I

1997
01:53:23,160 --> 01:53:26,960
Speaker 1: did not hear that. Okay, that is yeah. That wolverine

1998
01:53:27,080 --> 01:53:29,000
Speaker 1: was like, oh my gosh, my year is made. And

1999
01:53:29,360 --> 01:53:32,599
Speaker 1: another one out of that same project, another one got

2000
01:53:32,680 --> 01:53:34,880
Speaker 1: caught two hundred and fifty miles more they collared it.

2001
01:53:35,640 --> 01:53:38,040
Speaker 1: That got caught by a trapper in British Columbia. That

2002
01:53:38,280 --> 01:53:40,439
Speaker 1: does not surprise me at all. Like that is the

2003
01:53:40,520 --> 01:53:42,920
Speaker 1: kind of thing when and that's why when people say,

2004
01:53:42,960 --> 01:53:45,080
Speaker 1: oh I saw a wolverine running through my field, and Ohio,

2005
01:53:45,200 --> 01:53:47,960
Speaker 1: I'm like, highly skeptical. But tell me more. You know,

2006
01:53:48,120 --> 01:53:51,960
Speaker 1: I I know something about Krim a long time ago.

2007
01:53:52,200 --> 01:53:54,680
Speaker 1: I said that she ought to get whoever ran that

2008
01:53:54,920 --> 01:54:01,800
Speaker 1: whole collaring project on the podcast. Still doesn't happen. Wait

2009
01:54:01,840 --> 01:54:04,439
Speaker 1: which coloring project where they were where they did that

2010
01:54:04,560 --> 01:54:08,479
Speaker 1: crazy collaring project around that road construction project in southeast

2011
01:54:08,479 --> 01:54:12,400
Speaker 1: Alaska and they had the collared moose, bear, and wolverine

2012
01:54:12,600 --> 01:54:17,080
Speaker 1: all come together. Oh I totally forgot about that. That's

2013
01:54:18,080 --> 01:54:19,840
Speaker 1: not the knock on today's guess, but that a hell

2014
01:54:19,880 --> 01:54:24,559
Speaker 1: of a guest who did that? Okay, whole work assignment

2015
01:54:24,640 --> 01:54:29,880
Speaker 1: for me dead no old age, because I just forgot

2016
01:54:29,920 --> 01:54:34,000
Speaker 1: about it. For four years. I feel like I was you,

2017
01:54:34,080 --> 01:54:36,040
Speaker 1: I was telling about that. I feel like this might

2018
01:54:36,120 --> 01:54:38,960
Speaker 1: be the first that I've heard of. Maybe I just

2019
01:54:39,080 --> 01:54:41,560
Speaker 1: thought it. Maybe I thought I need to tell Crane

2020
01:54:41,600 --> 01:54:45,680
Speaker 1: about this. What's the what's the most impressive thing about

2021
01:54:45,960 --> 01:54:48,680
Speaker 1: wolverines that people you think people should know about that

2022
01:54:48,760 --> 01:54:52,240
Speaker 1: they don't know about? Who wrote it's like that, like

2023
01:54:52,400 --> 01:54:59,000
Speaker 1: something you've seen it? Like what blooded killers? Um? I mean,

2024
01:54:59,080 --> 01:55:01,680
Speaker 1: I think I talked about the thing that is most

2025
01:55:01,720 --> 01:55:04,320
Speaker 1: impressive to me, just the endurance that they have, the

2026
01:55:04,720 --> 01:55:09,120
Speaker 1: way that they can travel, you know, pretty much endlessly,

2027
01:55:09,920 --> 01:55:13,400
Speaker 1: and you know they also this is there was a

2028
01:55:13,440 --> 01:55:15,839
Speaker 1: big study in Glacier National Park, and this is probably

2029
01:55:15,960 --> 01:55:18,480
Speaker 1: relatively well known because there was an author named Doug

2030
01:55:18,560 --> 01:55:21,600
Speaker 1: Chadwick who wrote called The Wolverine Way, where he talks

2031
01:55:21,640 --> 01:55:24,960
Speaker 1: about the wolverine that you know, started to like go

2032
01:55:25,160 --> 01:55:28,760
Speaker 1: around Mount Cleveland and then just decided, you know, the

2033
01:55:28,840 --> 01:55:30,280
Speaker 1: hell with it, it's going to be easier to go

2034
01:55:30,400 --> 01:55:33,440
Speaker 1: over the top and went up five thousand vertical feet

2035
01:55:33,520 --> 01:55:35,680
Speaker 1: or something like that in about forty five minutes and

2036
01:55:35,840 --> 01:55:37,520
Speaker 1: down the other side, and there was a carcass on

2037
01:55:37,600 --> 01:55:38,880
Speaker 1: the other side that it was trying to get to

2038
01:55:39,120 --> 01:55:41,240
Speaker 1: and it you could see in the caller data like

2039
01:55:41,480 --> 01:55:44,080
Speaker 1: it started to go around and then it was like, Nope,

2040
01:55:44,240 --> 01:55:45,800
Speaker 1: I'm just hungry and I want to get to my

2041
01:55:45,880 --> 01:55:48,840
Speaker 1: meal immediately, and up it went and over and to

2042
01:55:49,000 --> 01:55:51,920
Speaker 1: that carcass. And so that to me, the fact that

2043
01:55:52,040 --> 01:55:56,160
Speaker 1: they are such incredible mountaineers and sort of endurance athletes,

2044
01:55:56,280 --> 01:55:58,200
Speaker 1: I think is something that a lot of people don't

2045
01:55:58,240 --> 01:56:01,040
Speaker 1: know about them. And then on the softer side, I

2046
01:56:01,080 --> 01:56:04,160
Speaker 1: would say too that they are actually really good parents,

2047
01:56:04,280 --> 01:56:07,480
Speaker 1: which is not something that most people know, but like

2048
01:56:08,280 --> 01:56:10,880
Speaker 1: they invest a lot in their young, they take care

2049
01:56:10,920 --> 01:56:13,120
Speaker 1: of them, they have these ongoing relationships with them for

2050
01:56:13,200 --> 01:56:16,240
Speaker 1: quite a while after they are sort of technically independent.

2051
01:56:17,480 --> 01:56:21,240
Speaker 1: Both sexes take part in the parenting. Yeah, I think

2052
01:56:21,280 --> 01:56:23,080
Speaker 1: that was one of the most interesting things to come

2053
01:56:23,120 --> 01:56:26,520
Speaker 1: out of that Glacier research um. For a long time,

2054
01:56:26,680 --> 01:56:28,960
Speaker 1: there was a sort of this like myth around wolverines

2055
01:56:29,000 --> 01:56:31,600
Speaker 1: that the male wolverines would go and kill the kits,

2056
01:56:31,920 --> 01:56:34,680
Speaker 1: which doesn't make any sense evolutionarily, like if if those

2057
01:56:34,720 --> 01:56:36,840
Speaker 1: are your kits, like you, the last thing you want

2058
01:56:36,880 --> 01:56:38,840
Speaker 1: to do is actually kill that. Yeah, but that is

2059
01:56:38,920 --> 01:56:41,040
Speaker 1: a thing though, I mean, like on Kodiac, like a

2060
01:56:41,080 --> 01:56:46,000
Speaker 1: primary food source of of male brown bears as baby

2061
01:56:46,080 --> 01:56:49,520
Speaker 1: brown bears. That is, there's a chance. There is a chance,

2062
01:56:49,600 --> 01:56:51,600
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of people because wolverines look

2063
01:56:51,640 --> 01:56:53,960
Speaker 1: like bears. They've got five toes like bears. They you know,

2064
01:56:54,400 --> 01:56:56,760
Speaker 1: one of their bear, they're like, oh, it's just a

2065
01:56:56,760 --> 01:56:58,800
Speaker 1: little bear. They act the same way. But what they

2066
01:56:58,840 --> 01:57:01,080
Speaker 1: actually saw in the call the data was that these

2067
01:57:01,160 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 1: male wolverines were visiting the dens. We don't know what

2068
01:57:04,360 --> 01:57:06,280
Speaker 1: they were doing there, but we do know that they

2069
01:57:06,320 --> 01:57:10,320
Speaker 1: would regularly visit the dens um. Maybe they were bringing food,

2070
01:57:10,440 --> 01:57:14,120
Speaker 1: and that after the kids came out of the den um,

2071
01:57:14,280 --> 01:57:17,480
Speaker 1: they would travel periodically with their mom and periodically with

2072
01:57:17,600 --> 01:57:20,360
Speaker 1: their dad. Yeah, that's taking a trip with their dad. Yeah,

2073
01:57:20,640 --> 01:57:22,640
Speaker 1: it's just that's when they had that big fight. Yet,

2074
01:57:24,320 --> 01:57:26,200
Speaker 1: I mean, maybe they do get into these big disagrees.

2075
01:57:26,240 --> 01:57:28,240
Speaker 1: He was coming to the dens like you ready yet,

2076
01:57:28,760 --> 01:57:30,920
Speaker 1: ready for that fight yet? Oh you guys are just

2077
01:57:31,080 --> 01:57:35,480
Speaker 1: now disrupting my whole tranquil vision of wolverine family life.

2078
01:57:36,320 --> 01:57:38,400
Speaker 1: But that is wild, though. Man, he'll come and check.

2079
01:57:38,720 --> 01:57:42,840
Speaker 1: He'll come around and check. Yeah. Yeah, and my kids

2080
01:57:42,840 --> 01:57:44,840
Speaker 1: there are talking about some animal and they're like wonder

2081
01:57:44,840 --> 01:57:47,720
Speaker 1: where his daddy is. You know, I'm like that, dear. Yeah,

2082
01:57:49,040 --> 01:57:54,000
Speaker 1: we'll have no interaction knowledge of it just isn't. It'll

2083
01:57:54,040 --> 01:57:56,120
Speaker 1: stay glued to its mom. But it's like it's not

2084
01:57:56,920 --> 01:57:58,920
Speaker 1: well if it's a buck though, it might sparse dad

2085
01:57:58,960 --> 01:58:02,000
Speaker 1: one day, Yeah someday, Yeah my spar was dad. But yeah,

2086
01:58:02,040 --> 01:58:04,640
Speaker 1: I'm just like like he he doesn't know or care.

2087
01:58:04,800 --> 01:58:07,600
Speaker 1: Yeah that dear knows his mom like inside no, but

2088
01:58:07,760 --> 01:58:10,880
Speaker 1: has no idea of dad. Yeah. Um no, that's it's

2089
01:58:10,920 --> 01:58:13,000
Speaker 1: different for wolverines, and I would love to know more

2090
01:58:13,160 --> 01:58:16,360
Speaker 1: about why. Um, But they Yeah, they do have these

2091
01:58:16,480 --> 01:58:19,920
Speaker 1: these sort of family relationships that persist for quite a while.

2092
01:58:19,960 --> 01:58:22,760
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know if like if a

2093
01:58:22,840 --> 01:58:26,160
Speaker 1: young wolverine left and came back, whether his dad would

2094
01:58:26,200 --> 01:58:29,520
Speaker 1: still be as like tolerant of him. Um. But you know,

2095
01:58:30,000 --> 01:58:32,000
Speaker 1: as far as we know, they do interact with each

2096
01:58:32,040 --> 01:58:35,280
Speaker 1: other amiably. They also have you guys, not had any

2097
01:58:35,360 --> 01:58:37,720
Speaker 1: chance to go to a den and just set up

2098
01:58:37,920 --> 01:58:40,120
Speaker 1: like good cameras and just observe like what's going on

2099
01:58:40,200 --> 01:58:41,320
Speaker 1: at the den? Or is that just too hard to

2100
01:58:41,360 --> 01:58:44,080
Speaker 1: pull off? I have never done that. They do, Um,

2101
01:58:44,640 --> 01:58:47,760
Speaker 1: So they do call her kits um. I have never

2102
01:58:47,920 --> 01:58:50,720
Speaker 1: personally done this. You go in right at that cusp

2103
01:58:50,920 --> 01:58:53,480
Speaker 1: where you know it's they're almost ready to be out

2104
01:58:53,520 --> 01:58:56,280
Speaker 1: of the den, so like mid may dig him out,

2105
01:58:56,320 --> 01:59:00,240
Speaker 1: stick a color on him, and then they're they're out. Um.

2106
01:59:00,480 --> 01:59:02,920
Speaker 1: But there have been a few projects in Canada that

2107
01:59:03,000 --> 01:59:05,400
Speaker 1: have set up cameras next to the den, and what

2108
01:59:05,520 --> 01:59:08,200
Speaker 1: they've seen in I think every instance is they go in,

2109
01:59:08,280 --> 01:59:09,840
Speaker 1: they put this camera up on the den, and the

2110
01:59:09,920 --> 01:59:14,600
Speaker 1: female moves the kits within like forty So even though

2111
01:59:15,320 --> 01:59:19,720
Speaker 1: they are like relatively tolerant of certain levels and kinds

2112
01:59:19,720 --> 01:59:22,800
Speaker 1: of human activity, if you stick an object that they

2113
01:59:22,840 --> 01:59:25,600
Speaker 1: can smell and see, like right at the place where

2114
01:59:25,720 --> 01:59:27,280
Speaker 1: where she has her kits, she is not going to

2115
01:59:27,360 --> 01:59:30,320
Speaker 1: like that. So um, we tend to I've had a

2116
01:59:30,360 --> 01:59:32,240
Speaker 1: lot of film projects contact me and be like, hey,

2117
01:59:32,360 --> 01:59:34,280
Speaker 1: can you like give us a den location so we

2118
01:59:34,280 --> 01:59:36,080
Speaker 1: can put a camera on it. And I don't think

2119
01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:37,960
Speaker 1: I don't think it's ethical to do that, and I'm

2120
01:59:37,960 --> 01:59:40,520
Speaker 1: not going to assist with things like that. Yeah, do

2121
01:59:40,640 --> 01:59:43,560
Speaker 1: they like does the male let's say he's just out

2122
01:59:43,640 --> 01:59:48,680
Speaker 1: cruising about like old sixty five was it fifty six? Yeah,

2123
01:59:49,240 --> 01:59:52,760
Speaker 1: he does he have a den location. No, So this

2124
01:59:52,960 --> 01:59:54,480
Speaker 1: is another thing. I get a lot, I guess so

2125
01:59:54,600 --> 01:59:57,520
Speaker 1: many reports of wolverine sightings, and I dearly love interacting

2126
01:59:57,560 --> 01:59:59,120
Speaker 1: with the people who send them. But one of the

2127
01:59:59,280 --> 02:00:01,400
Speaker 1: red flags from me whenever anybody's like, oh I got

2128
02:00:01,440 --> 02:00:03,160
Speaker 1: a wolverine in a den in my backyard, I'm like,

2129
02:00:03,240 --> 02:00:05,880
Speaker 1: that is not a wolverine. Um like, like, that's this

2130
02:00:05,960 --> 02:00:09,720
Speaker 1: little spot where goals asleep at night. They definitely I

2131
02:00:09,840 --> 02:00:12,720
Speaker 1: have seen, you know, males and females alike will dig

2132
02:00:12,760 --> 02:00:16,120
Speaker 1: holes in the ground and cash meat in there. They

2133
02:00:16,200 --> 02:00:21,360
Speaker 1: will go under talas to rest, especially if it's hot out,

2134
02:00:21,440 --> 02:00:22,840
Speaker 1: like that's probably one of the ways that they throw

2135
02:00:22,880 --> 02:00:25,120
Speaker 1: them or regulate when it's hot. But they don't have

2136
02:00:25,440 --> 02:00:27,520
Speaker 1: a den that they are faithful to the only time

2137
02:00:27,560 --> 02:00:30,120
Speaker 1: that wolverines are in a den is when the female

2138
02:00:30,320 --> 02:00:33,840
Speaker 1: is in there with the kids. My body in the

2139
02:00:33,920 --> 02:00:39,000
Speaker 1: bare Tooths saw one digging through an avalanche debris field. Huh.

2140
02:00:39,120 --> 02:00:41,440
Speaker 1: And then my brother Danny watched to dig through an

2141
02:00:41,480 --> 02:00:44,440
Speaker 1: avalanche debris field in Alaska. Okay. Yeah, so this is

2142
02:00:44,520 --> 02:00:48,000
Speaker 1: really another interesting thing that they do. You see, like

2143
02:00:48,440 --> 02:00:51,840
Speaker 1: in the collar data, wolverines will cruise the bottoms of

2144
02:00:51,880 --> 02:00:54,920
Speaker 1: avalanche shoots and they are looking for carcasses should got

2145
02:00:54,960 --> 02:00:58,080
Speaker 1: swept up in cheap and goats that have gotten um

2146
02:00:58,880 --> 02:01:02,040
Speaker 1: swept off and you know what I mean, like what

2147
02:01:02,200 --> 02:01:04,880
Speaker 1: kind of crazy junk gets scraped up by an avalanche. Yeah,

2148
02:01:04,920 --> 02:01:06,720
Speaker 1: and then the other thing they do in talas fields

2149
02:01:06,760 --> 02:01:09,120
Speaker 1: and probably avalanche debris fields as well, if there are

2150
02:01:09,160 --> 02:01:11,440
Speaker 1: pikers in there, they'll go and they'll they'll hunt pikers

2151
02:01:11,760 --> 02:01:15,880
Speaker 1: like they're actually hunting, not living, not scavenge, but living pikes.

2152
02:01:15,920 --> 02:01:20,520
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, um. And then also marmots and Mongolia, they

2153
02:01:20,600 --> 02:01:23,440
Speaker 1: will dig hibernating marth a terrible thing for the marmot,

2154
02:01:23,480 --> 02:01:25,920
Speaker 1: but they'll dig hibernating marmots out of out of the

2155
02:01:26,000 --> 02:01:28,080
Speaker 1: ground and just like you know, it's a little fat

2156
02:01:28,120 --> 02:01:31,520
Speaker 1: bomb for them. Coincident's your favorite food. Oh so, yes,

2157
02:01:31,720 --> 02:01:34,880
Speaker 1: there's a background. There's more detail than that. But yeah, yeah,

2158
02:01:35,080 --> 02:01:36,680
Speaker 1: we could just leave it there. People want to wonder,

2159
02:01:36,760 --> 02:01:40,760
Speaker 1: but no, um, so marmot is a delicacy in Mongolia.

2160
02:01:40,960 --> 02:01:44,080
Speaker 1: And I like, if you find the wolverines not just

2161
02:01:44,200 --> 02:01:47,480
Speaker 1: for wolverines. Yeah no, this is an overlap between wolverine

2162
02:01:47,520 --> 02:01:52,160
Speaker 1: and human um culinary arts, I guess, but um, wolverines

2163
02:01:52,920 --> 02:01:56,520
Speaker 1: eat them, and humans also eat them. Uh. You shoot

2164
02:01:56,560 --> 02:02:00,360
Speaker 1: the marmot and you cut it open, got it? Um,

2165
02:02:00,640 --> 02:02:03,240
Speaker 1: stuff it full of wild onions and hot rocks and

2166
02:02:03,720 --> 02:02:07,800
Speaker 1: cook it up and it is so good. You told

2167
02:02:07,800 --> 02:02:10,400
Speaker 1: me when I was younger that like I would one

2168
02:02:10,480 --> 02:02:12,600
Speaker 1: day be really excited about eating a fat road and

2169
02:02:12,680 --> 02:02:16,080
Speaker 1: I would have just been like not believing about that.

2170
02:02:16,160 --> 02:02:18,800
Speaker 1: But yeah, it's it's really really good. Um. Of course,

2171
02:02:18,880 --> 02:02:21,640
Speaker 1: then like a little bit of spicy risk to that

2172
02:02:21,880 --> 02:02:25,000
Speaker 1: is that marmots are also the reservoir species for bubonic plague,

2173
02:02:25,000 --> 02:02:28,560
Speaker 1: which is still We had a story we covered some

2174
02:02:28,680 --> 02:02:32,680
Speaker 1: time ago of a couple I don't know how I'd

2175
02:02:32,680 --> 02:02:34,840
Speaker 1: even want up being reported, but a couple that died

2176
02:02:35,040 --> 02:02:40,360
Speaker 1: from Yeah was that in Mongolia? Yeah, that happens every year,

2177
02:02:40,480 --> 02:02:42,040
Speaker 1: and so there are It was weird. It's like one

2178
02:02:42,040 --> 02:02:44,120
Speaker 1: of those things that you're like, like it got picked

2179
02:02:44,200 --> 02:02:48,280
Speaker 1: up in international news, you know, and you're like, how

2180
02:02:48,360 --> 02:02:50,120
Speaker 1: did like how did this come to be picked up

2181
02:02:50,120 --> 02:02:52,560
Speaker 1: international news? And like, I bet it happens. It's just

2182
02:02:52,640 --> 02:02:54,280
Speaker 1: weird that it and then it got all over the place.

2183
02:02:54,480 --> 02:02:56,800
Speaker 1: I'm sure because the Black death has like such a

2184
02:02:57,200 --> 02:03:00,560
Speaker 1: like a resonance in like the Western imagination because of

2185
02:03:00,640 --> 02:03:04,560
Speaker 1: how catastrophic that was for European history that people are like,

2186
02:03:04,600 --> 02:03:07,520
Speaker 1: oh my god, the bubonic plague at that sold people

2187
02:03:07,600 --> 02:03:09,720
Speaker 1: on the story probably, I mean, I feel like it

2188
02:03:10,120 --> 02:03:12,200
Speaker 1: pops up like every year or every couple of years

2189
02:03:12,240 --> 02:03:15,120
Speaker 1: in the international press somebody's died of bubonic plague in Mongolia.

2190
02:03:15,200 --> 02:03:17,800
Speaker 1: But the Mongols, the Mongolians and the Mongol Empire as well,

2191
02:03:17,880 --> 02:03:20,880
Speaker 1: have been managing that disease for you know, hundreds and

2192
02:03:21,000 --> 02:03:23,240
Speaker 1: hundreds of years, and so they know how to, like

2193
02:03:23,320 --> 02:03:25,240
Speaker 1: if somebody comes down with it, they quarantine the whole

2194
02:03:25,280 --> 02:03:30,040
Speaker 1: town basically. And during marmot hunting season, at least when

2195
02:03:30,040 --> 02:03:33,400
Speaker 1: I was a Peace Corp volunteer, there were checkpoints outside

2196
02:03:33,400 --> 02:03:37,280
Speaker 1: of Ulmboder, and everybody wants to eat marmots, so like

2197
02:03:37,480 --> 02:03:39,760
Speaker 1: people would try to bring them into the city, but

2198
02:03:40,040 --> 02:03:43,440
Speaker 1: they would like stop and search the car and your

2199
02:03:43,520 --> 02:03:45,600
Speaker 1: luggage to make sure that nobody was bringing a marmot

2200
02:03:45,640 --> 02:03:49,280
Speaker 1: into the city. Because it's manageable. When the population density

2201
02:03:49,360 --> 02:03:52,560
Speaker 1: human population density is very low, you can quarantine the town.

2202
02:03:52,640 --> 02:03:55,240
Speaker 1: But if something like that ever got loose in Ullumboder,

2203
02:03:55,400 --> 02:03:59,200
Speaker 1: where half the population of the country lives, then you

2204
02:03:59,240 --> 02:04:01,160
Speaker 1: would really be in trouble. That's how this became a

2205
02:04:01,200 --> 02:04:04,000
Speaker 1: news story. Okay, you reminded me. Okay, it was a

2206
02:04:04,040 --> 02:04:08,440
Speaker 1: news story because the journalist was stuck in town. Okay,

2207
02:04:08,480 --> 02:04:10,560
Speaker 1: well that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, that's what it was.

2208
02:04:10,760 --> 02:04:13,480
Speaker 1: That's how that's how what became reported. Yeah, becase they

2209
02:04:13,520 --> 02:04:17,040
Speaker 1: got quarantined okay because of a of a bubonic plague

2210
02:04:17,080 --> 02:04:21,240
Speaker 1: death from eating marmot. Okay, so then it yeah, that's good. Yeah, yeah,

2211
02:04:21,560 --> 02:04:23,840
Speaker 1: and there So this goes to hunting too, and like

2212
02:04:23,920 --> 02:04:27,360
Speaker 1: traditional knowledge in hunting, because I have been told I

2213
02:04:27,400 --> 02:04:30,040
Speaker 1: have not seen anybody hunt this way, but historically there

2214
02:04:30,160 --> 02:04:31,880
Speaker 1: was like a specific thing that you were supposed to

2215
02:04:31,920 --> 02:04:34,640
Speaker 1: do when you were hunting marmots um where you would

2216
02:04:34,640 --> 02:04:36,840
Speaker 1: set up like a little stand for your rifle and

2217
02:04:36,880 --> 02:04:38,200
Speaker 1: you would put the rifle on it, and then you

2218
02:04:38,240 --> 02:04:41,120
Speaker 1: would have a feather and you would like move the

2219
02:04:41,240 --> 02:04:44,640
Speaker 1: feather and if the marmot could like track the feather

2220
02:04:44,800 --> 02:04:46,600
Speaker 1: and was aware of the feather, then it was like

2221
02:04:46,760 --> 02:04:49,240
Speaker 1: healthy enough. You knew it didn't have the plague, so

2222
02:04:49,280 --> 02:04:52,080
Speaker 1: you could shoot it. Really, people don't bother to do

2223
02:04:52,200 --> 02:04:56,800
Speaker 1: that anymore, so well no one I know either, but um,

2224
02:04:57,600 --> 02:05:00,280
Speaker 1: so like, yeah, then there's a greater risk of of

2225
02:05:00,440 --> 02:05:03,000
Speaker 1: getting an animal that actually is carrying the plate So

2226
02:05:03,120 --> 02:05:05,000
Speaker 1: you're they're eating that. No one, they're playing with fire

2227
02:05:05,080 --> 02:05:07,600
Speaker 1: by messing with those things. Yeah, I mean usually what

2228
02:05:07,720 --> 02:05:09,640
Speaker 1: you do is after you hunt it, you also blow

2229
02:05:09,760 --> 02:05:12,960
Speaker 1: torch it to kill because it's it's the fleas that

2230
02:05:13,160 --> 02:05:17,360
Speaker 1: actually carry it. So you blow torch the pelt and

2231
02:05:17,560 --> 02:05:20,040
Speaker 1: then you and then you cook it. But if it's

2232
02:05:20,040 --> 02:05:23,200
Speaker 1: already infected, then if you eat anything that has like

2233
02:05:23,320 --> 02:05:26,160
Speaker 1: that limph tissue in it, then you you also still

2234
02:05:26,240 --> 02:05:28,320
Speaker 1: run the risk of getting it. Man, we're hunting cottontail

2235
02:05:28,400 --> 02:05:30,440
Speaker 1: rabbits yesterday my kids got soul full of those little

2236
02:05:30,480 --> 02:05:33,640
Speaker 1: fleas all over those rabbits. Oh really, God, yeah, it's

2237
02:05:33,680 --> 02:05:41,600
Speaker 1: fram or something. Their clothes are hanging outside right now. Well,

2238
02:05:41,880 --> 02:05:47,080
Speaker 1: at least the rabbits don't have bubonic plate um. They're like,

2239
02:05:47,200 --> 02:05:50,000
Speaker 1: I see them, we're clean rabbits, and I see they're

2240
02:05:50,080 --> 02:05:56,000
Speaker 1: all like itch in their ears a lot, And I'm like,

2241
02:05:56,080 --> 02:05:57,960
Speaker 1: go take a shower, take thirty clothes outside and take

2242
02:05:57,960 --> 02:06:01,200
Speaker 1: a shower. Can you get them a blowtorch? Oh? I

2243
02:06:01,240 --> 02:06:03,440
Speaker 1: guess you hunt rabbits for the pelts, though, don't you No, no,

2244
02:06:03,760 --> 02:06:07,440
Speaker 1: we just eat them. Okay. Well, um man, so how

2245
02:06:07,480 --> 02:06:12,280
Speaker 1: do people find you and follow your work? M I interrupt. Yeah,

2246
02:06:12,560 --> 02:06:14,920
Speaker 1: And before we do that, I think we have maybe

2247
02:06:15,000 --> 02:06:18,160
Speaker 1: like a public service announcement that you mentioned. Do you

2248
02:06:18,240 --> 02:06:20,960
Speaker 1: want it to talk about before like the public like

2249
02:06:21,080 --> 02:06:25,600
Speaker 1: kind of enlisting the public? Stop stoe, No, they're looking

2250
02:06:25,600 --> 02:06:28,920
Speaker 1: at your cow? No something else? Well? Yeah, please if

2251
02:06:29,000 --> 02:06:31,040
Speaker 1: you if you do see a wolverine looking at your cow,

2252
02:06:31,120 --> 02:06:33,280
Speaker 1: please don't shoot it. Please just call me. Um. You

2253
02:06:33,360 --> 02:06:36,040
Speaker 1: can find me at the Wolverine Foundation dot org and

2254
02:06:36,440 --> 02:06:38,920
Speaker 1: submit a report immediately if you see a wolverine looking

2255
02:06:38,960 --> 02:06:40,840
Speaker 1: at your cow. And I don't want anyone that sees

2256
02:06:40,840 --> 02:06:43,040
Speaker 1: a wolverine let you know. Yeah, I do. I think

2257
02:06:43,160 --> 02:06:45,760
Speaker 1: it's important to let us know because we do collect

2258
02:06:45,800 --> 02:06:48,840
Speaker 1: siting reports. And then also it's really important to let

2259
02:06:48,920 --> 02:06:52,160
Speaker 1: the local state Game and Fish department know because they're

2260
02:06:52,200 --> 02:06:53,960
Speaker 1: the ones who are going to be capable of being

2261
02:06:54,040 --> 02:06:56,000
Speaker 1: on the ground there to assess the report and to

2262
02:06:56,120 --> 02:06:59,520
Speaker 1: take any action that might be necessary to monitor the animal. Um.

2263
02:07:00,040 --> 02:07:01,600
Speaker 1: We do get a lot of I do get a

2264
02:07:01,640 --> 02:07:04,560
Speaker 1: lot of reports of wolverines that are not wolverines. I've

2265
02:07:04,600 --> 02:07:07,600
Speaker 1: gotten a few reports of werewolves. We do not study werewolves.

2266
02:07:07,640 --> 02:07:09,959
Speaker 1: Please do not report them to me. That's a different species.

2267
02:07:10,040 --> 02:07:12,760
Speaker 1: Somebody else deals with that. What is it normally? Um,

2268
02:07:13,840 --> 02:07:17,600
Speaker 1: the most the most common thing I think actually are

2269
02:07:17,800 --> 02:07:21,560
Speaker 1: porcupines and wood chucks. Yeah. People, nobody knows what a

2270
02:07:21,600 --> 02:07:25,520
Speaker 1: porcupine looks like. I mean, you guys, wolverine, you guys

2271
02:07:25,600 --> 02:07:27,560
Speaker 1: know what a porcupine looks like. But like the general

2272
02:07:27,600 --> 02:07:30,560
Speaker 1: American public does see you know how they have that

2273
02:07:30,720 --> 02:07:33,280
Speaker 1: they have a tail. Yep. Wolverine's got that big kind

2274
02:07:33,280 --> 02:07:40,640
Speaker 1: of tail. Yeah, yeah, they're roughly the same size. And

2275
02:07:40,720 --> 02:07:45,840
Speaker 1: wolverine's got that kind of weird almost like coloration, yes,

2276
02:07:46,440 --> 02:07:51,240
Speaker 1: circles the bodied tail ratio in the in the way

2277
02:07:51,320 --> 02:07:54,000
Speaker 1: the tail rides, yep, And they have that. You know.

2278
02:07:54,560 --> 02:07:57,280
Speaker 1: Porcupines also have that kind of humped profile, so like

2279
02:07:57,360 --> 02:07:59,640
Speaker 1: they look like they're sort of like round on the top.

2280
02:07:59,720 --> 02:08:01,560
Speaker 1: And a lot of people think of wolverines as looking

2281
02:08:01,600 --> 02:08:03,880
Speaker 1: that way. And if you see a wolve porcupine from

2282
02:08:03,880 --> 02:08:05,800
Speaker 1: a distance, you don't see the quills. It just looks

2283
02:08:05,800 --> 02:08:07,760
Speaker 1: like it's kind of fuzzy right now. And they have

2284
02:08:07,840 --> 02:08:11,880
Speaker 1: a guy a light colored halo yes to them that

2285
02:08:12,040 --> 02:08:15,240
Speaker 1: I think wolverine has too. Yeah, so yeah, thank you,

2286
02:08:15,320 --> 02:08:17,560
Speaker 1: and they walk, you know. Porcupines also have kind of

2287
02:08:17,600 --> 02:08:20,360
Speaker 1: flat feet too, although they're a lot smaller than wolverine feet,

2288
02:08:20,400 --> 02:08:23,320
Speaker 1: they do have that kind of like gait that could

2289
02:08:23,360 --> 02:08:27,120
Speaker 1: be sort of wolverine from from a distance. Wolverines like

2290
02:08:27,240 --> 02:08:30,960
Speaker 1: eating porcupines. No, you know, this is something I have

2291
02:08:31,240 --> 02:08:36,640
Speaker 1: never heard of. Fishers are special Fishers are like fishers

2292
02:08:36,680 --> 02:08:39,360
Speaker 1: are porcupine specialists? Yeah, they open it up on the

2293
02:08:39,440 --> 02:08:44,120
Speaker 1: belly and yeah, no, I we've never We've seen duck remains,

2294
02:08:44,200 --> 02:08:48,520
Speaker 1: bird remains, Um, we've seen, you know, all kinds of

2295
02:08:48,640 --> 02:08:50,600
Speaker 1: things that wolverines will eat, but I have never heard

2296
02:08:50,640 --> 02:08:53,880
Speaker 1: of a wolverine eating a porcupine. Um. So if you

2297
02:08:54,040 --> 02:08:57,560
Speaker 1: do see a wolverine or you see wolverine sign which

2298
02:08:57,560 --> 02:09:02,680
Speaker 1: are tracks, um, please take photographs if possible. If you're

2299
02:09:02,680 --> 02:09:04,840
Speaker 1: taking photo if you're taking photos of the tracks, make

2300
02:09:04,880 --> 02:09:07,200
Speaker 1: sure you put something in there for scale, because wolverine

2301
02:09:07,240 --> 02:09:11,720
Speaker 1: tracks and Martin tracks and even like least weasel tracks

2302
02:09:11,800 --> 02:09:14,560
Speaker 1: are the same darned tracks. If I don't have something

2303
02:09:14,600 --> 02:09:16,560
Speaker 1: in there for scale, I can't tell what it is

2304
02:09:17,840 --> 02:09:21,040
Speaker 1: and then send it to me. There's a submission forum

2305
02:09:21,160 --> 02:09:26,240
Speaker 1: on Wolverine Foundation dot org and let your local wildlife

2306
02:09:26,240 --> 02:09:28,520
Speaker 1: management agency know as well, and we will put it

2307
02:09:28,600 --> 02:09:32,920
Speaker 1: into a database. This is important too. I know that

2308
02:09:33,000 --> 02:09:35,480
Speaker 1: the listeners of your podcasts are in general, really really

2309
02:09:35,520 --> 02:09:38,160
Speaker 1: skilled outdoors people, and I have total faith and trust

2310
02:09:38,240 --> 02:09:41,440
Speaker 1: in people's wildlife knowledge. But because of the way science works,

2311
02:09:41,520 --> 02:09:44,040
Speaker 1: I always have to be a little bit skeptical and

2312
02:09:44,200 --> 02:09:46,600
Speaker 1: I have to ask more questions about the report. So

2313
02:09:46,720 --> 02:09:49,040
Speaker 1: if you send a report to me, do not think

2314
02:09:49,080 --> 02:09:51,480
Speaker 1: that it is a commentary on your own assessment of

2315
02:09:51,520 --> 02:09:53,720
Speaker 1: your wildlife skills. If I come back to you with questions,

2316
02:09:54,200 --> 02:09:57,120
Speaker 1: it is just because I have to do everything I

2317
02:09:57,200 --> 02:09:59,240
Speaker 1: can to verify and make sure that it is not

2318
02:09:59,400 --> 02:10:05,000
Speaker 1: something else had. Some people get very very angry with me. Yeah,

2319
02:10:05,040 --> 02:10:07,920
Speaker 1: there's some guy who was like riding a four wheeler

2320
02:10:08,000 --> 02:10:10,560
Speaker 1: around a dump in like Alabama or something and reported

2321
02:10:10,560 --> 02:10:13,400
Speaker 1: a wolverine and I was like, um, could you describe

2322
02:10:13,440 --> 02:10:15,480
Speaker 1: what the facial mask looked like? And he got so

2323
02:10:15,680 --> 02:10:17,120
Speaker 1: angry at me. He was like, you need to take

2324
02:10:17,160 --> 02:10:20,760
Speaker 1: some yoga classes and learn to chill out. So I

2325
02:10:20,840 --> 02:10:23,080
Speaker 1: took a class the other day. My wife, did it

2326
02:10:23,200 --> 02:10:35,800
Speaker 1: help you? Like, no, be awful. Um, so yeah, and

2327
02:10:35,880 --> 02:10:39,600
Speaker 1: then um, if everybody knows how to identify wolverine wolverine tracks, um,

2328
02:10:39,880 --> 02:10:42,320
Speaker 1: that's great. But for those who don't, they have five toes,

2329
02:10:43,000 --> 02:10:45,960
Speaker 1: they have a little crescent pad in the middle. It

2330
02:10:46,000 --> 02:10:48,160
Speaker 1: kind of looks like a it's like arcs, like a

2331
02:10:48,440 --> 02:10:51,200
Speaker 1: like a crescent moon. And then sometimes there's a heel

2332
02:10:51,240 --> 02:10:53,520
Speaker 1: pad that registers, and sometimes there is not a heel

2333
02:10:53,560 --> 02:10:55,920
Speaker 1: pad that registers. But if the heel pad is there,

2334
02:10:56,160 --> 02:10:58,400
Speaker 1: from the tip of the toes to that heel pad,

2335
02:10:58,560 --> 02:11:01,040
Speaker 1: it's probably like six or seven inches. It's a it's

2336
02:11:01,040 --> 02:11:03,680
Speaker 1: a big it's a big track, and they have a

2337
02:11:03,800 --> 02:11:06,920
Speaker 1: very distinctive three buy track. Give me the dimension again,

2338
02:11:07,400 --> 02:11:10,120
Speaker 1: it's the whole track heel pad shows. If the heel

2339
02:11:10,120 --> 02:11:12,600
Speaker 1: pad shows, it's like six to seven inches, it's like

2340
02:11:12,640 --> 02:11:14,200
Speaker 1: the size of I mean, it's like a wolf track,

2341
02:11:14,240 --> 02:11:16,480
Speaker 1: which and people don't I mean, people are surprised by that.

2342
02:11:16,560 --> 02:11:20,320
Speaker 1: But it's a pretty big track and it could be

2343
02:11:20,400 --> 02:11:22,520
Speaker 1: like almost as big as your hand. Yeah, I mean

2344
02:11:22,600 --> 02:11:24,440
Speaker 1: that's how I yeah, that's why I'm holding up my hand.

2345
02:11:24,480 --> 02:11:26,760
Speaker 1: It's about talking this guy. This guy looks for tracks

2346
02:11:26,800 --> 02:11:28,920
Speaker 1: all win or you'll find one Okay, well, if I

2347
02:11:29,000 --> 02:11:32,040
Speaker 1: will talk to you about wolverine tracks, rides a snowmobile,

2348
02:11:33,320 --> 02:11:37,440
Speaker 1: just doing that. Snowmobile, snowmobilers and backcountry skiers, I feel

2349
02:11:37,440 --> 02:11:40,480
Speaker 1: like are an undertapped resource for wolverine citizen science, and

2350
02:11:40,560 --> 02:11:42,560
Speaker 1: I would love to have more people who are out

2351
02:11:42,680 --> 02:11:45,680
Speaker 1: in snowy conditions just being on the lookout and being

2352
02:11:45,760 --> 02:11:48,200
Speaker 1: aware and taking those photos and sending them to us,

2353
02:11:48,280 --> 02:11:53,000
Speaker 1: because it's really important to track where there are actually

2354
02:11:53,240 --> 02:11:56,840
Speaker 1: verified locations for the species. So thanks to anybody who's

2355
02:11:56,840 --> 02:11:59,200
Speaker 1: willing to do that. Is that the public service announcement?

2356
02:11:59,880 --> 02:12:03,520
Speaker 1: Yea yea, thank you kin? All right, man, that was good.

2357
02:12:04,800 --> 02:12:06,400
Speaker 1: We could we could do like a whole other one,

2358
02:12:07,600 --> 02:12:10,200
Speaker 1: like keep talking about wolverines. I will have a talk

2359
02:12:10,200 --> 02:12:13,320
Speaker 1: about wolverines for hours. So thank you for the opportunity.

2360
02:12:14,360 --> 02:12:17,200
Speaker 1: Tell again how to go find you guys stuff. It's

2361
02:12:17,280 --> 02:12:21,320
Speaker 1: Wolverine Foundation dot org and we have a Facebook page

2362
02:12:21,480 --> 02:12:24,040
Speaker 1: and we have a Twitter account. I am pretty the

2363
02:12:24,080 --> 02:12:26,720
Speaker 1: Wolverine Foundation. I basically am the only person running it.

2364
02:12:26,800 --> 02:12:29,800
Speaker 1: And it's not a salaried position either, so I'm pretty

2365
02:12:29,800 --> 02:12:32,240
Speaker 1: bad about the social media or spotty about the social media.

2366
02:12:32,320 --> 02:12:35,240
Speaker 1: But you can find us there. And I do periodically

2367
02:12:35,720 --> 02:12:39,280
Speaker 1: post things. Do you guys accept donations. We do accept donations, yes,

2368
02:12:39,400 --> 02:12:43,640
Speaker 1: and those donations go to support the wolverine research projects

2369
02:12:43,680 --> 02:12:46,800
Speaker 1: in the field, so you can talk If you have

2370
02:12:46,840 --> 02:12:49,000
Speaker 1: a specific wolverine project that you want to support, you

2371
02:12:49,080 --> 02:12:50,440
Speaker 1: can talk to me about that and I can put

2372
02:12:50,480 --> 02:12:53,320
Speaker 1: that money aside in a fund for that specific wolverine project.

2373
02:12:53,680 --> 02:12:56,240
Speaker 1: General contributions go towards the general pot of money that

2374
02:12:56,320 --> 02:12:59,919
Speaker 1: we then periodically open up for proposals from wolverine researchers.

2375
02:13:00,200 --> 02:13:02,960
Speaker 1: You know we didn't talk about was the idea that

2376
02:13:03,920 --> 02:13:10,680
Speaker 1: the a Row that like the Northern peoples, would use

2377
02:13:10,800 --> 02:13:14,720
Speaker 1: the wolverine fur on the rough of a parka because

2378
02:13:14,760 --> 02:13:18,360
Speaker 1: it's a hollow and it doesn't carry frost. Yes, But

2379
02:13:18,440 --> 02:13:21,680
Speaker 1: then I heard that that's actually not very accurate or

2380
02:13:21,760 --> 02:13:24,400
Speaker 1: is that accurate. I don't know if it's because it's hollow,

2381
02:13:24,480 --> 02:13:27,040
Speaker 1: but it does shed. It does shed with sheds from Yeah,

2382
02:13:27,120 --> 02:13:29,280
Speaker 1: that's why that's why you trim your park so when

2383
02:13:29,280 --> 02:13:31,640
Speaker 1: you're ex hailing. Yes, it doesn't build up on the

2384
02:13:31,680 --> 02:13:34,680
Speaker 1: park or rough exactly. Yeah, or you can shake it

2385
02:13:34,760 --> 02:13:36,640
Speaker 1: off or whatever, right, and it doesn't just stick on

2386
02:13:36,720 --> 02:13:38,160
Speaker 1: there like if you had a kyote rough, it just

2387
02:13:38,280 --> 02:13:41,880
Speaker 1: gets caked in ice. Yeah, so, and I think wolf

2388
02:13:41,920 --> 02:13:44,480
Speaker 1: fur also does the same thing. I know, ungulate furs hollow,

2389
02:13:45,040 --> 02:13:47,560
Speaker 1: and so that's why it's so insulating that I don't

2390
02:13:47,600 --> 02:13:50,040
Speaker 1: know whether wolverine fur is actually hollow. I don't think

2391
02:13:50,080 --> 02:13:52,560
Speaker 1: it is um, but it does have that property of

2392
02:13:52,600 --> 02:13:54,840
Speaker 1: shedding frost. And there have been like stories of people

2393
02:13:54,840 --> 02:13:59,240
Speaker 1: who have found wolverine carcasses um where you know, it's

2394
02:13:59,280 --> 02:14:01,520
Speaker 1: in the spring and the snow all around the carcass

2395
02:14:01,600 --> 02:14:03,960
Speaker 1: has melted, and then you like pick up the wolverine

2396
02:14:04,080 --> 02:14:06,440
Speaker 1: and there's still like a patch of snow under there.

2397
02:14:06,480 --> 02:14:09,200
Speaker 1: Because the insulating properties of the fur are so good,

2398
02:14:09,400 --> 02:14:12,440
Speaker 1: they're thermoneutral I think down to like minus forty degrees.

2399
02:14:12,560 --> 02:14:19,040
Speaker 1: So yeah, wolverine is a preferred in some northern places

2400
02:14:19,360 --> 02:14:22,880
Speaker 1: for that reason. In Mongolia, I have been told you

2401
02:14:22,920 --> 02:14:25,400
Speaker 1: should never put wolverine fur on your head because it

2402
02:14:25,520 --> 02:14:28,000
Speaker 1: is associated it's an animal that's associated with the underworld.

2403
02:14:28,400 --> 02:14:31,080
Speaker 1: You just don't want to be doing that. But that said, also,

2404
02:14:31,200 --> 02:14:33,800
Speaker 1: there are people in Mongolia who wear wolverine fur hats.

2405
02:14:33,880 --> 02:14:36,240
Speaker 1: So yeah, well, the next time you're in Mongolia and

2406
02:14:36,320 --> 02:14:39,160
Speaker 1: someone gives you a wolverine, hide sew it into your

2407
02:14:39,200 --> 02:14:41,800
Speaker 1: hood and just go home like mine, in your own business,

2408
02:14:41,960 --> 02:14:44,440
Speaker 1: and don't just be don't be showing everybody what you got.

2409
02:14:45,120 --> 02:14:48,200
Speaker 1: He's quiet about it, Pretend I don't know about the sides. Yeah. No,

2410
02:14:49,480 --> 02:14:52,640
Speaker 1: you say you want everybody to send in their wolverine signings,

2411
02:14:52,680 --> 02:14:57,040
Speaker 1: I'm guessing not if you're an Alaskan. I mean, I'm

2412
02:14:57,080 --> 02:15:00,120
Speaker 1: always interested in hearing about people's wolverine stories, so like,

2413
02:15:00,240 --> 02:15:03,080
Speaker 1: you can totally send me your wolverine stories from Alaska.

2414
02:15:03,240 --> 02:15:06,280
Speaker 1: But as far as what I'm interested in monitoring scientifically,

2415
02:15:06,440 --> 02:15:10,560
Speaker 1: it's much more about the wolverines here in the lower

2416
02:15:10,600 --> 02:15:13,160
Speaker 1: forty eight. So if Brody's dicking around on there in Colorado,

2417
02:15:13,200 --> 02:15:14,480
Speaker 1: on he finds what you want to hear about it,

2418
02:15:14,560 --> 02:15:16,720
Speaker 1: I do because as far as we know, since m

2419
02:15:16,760 --> 02:15:19,840
Speaker 1: fifty six left, there is still no population in Colorado,

2420
02:15:20,000 --> 02:15:22,680
Speaker 1: and you were mentioning before the fact that there's habitat there.

2421
02:15:22,760 --> 02:15:24,600
Speaker 1: So one of the things they're talking about is potentially

2422
02:15:24,680 --> 02:15:28,320
Speaker 1: reintroducing wolverines to Colorado. So they like doing that stuff

2423
02:15:28,360 --> 02:15:30,640
Speaker 1: in Colorado. I'm all for it, man, I'm all for it.

2424
02:15:30,720 --> 02:15:33,000
Speaker 1: Why not, there's no negative, No, I'm not saying they

2425
02:15:33,080 --> 02:15:36,920
Speaker 1: did it with links, right. Yeah, I'd be like, I

2426
02:15:36,960 --> 02:15:41,240
Speaker 1: would love to hear the anti wolverine argument she's got. Yeah,

2427
02:15:41,520 --> 02:15:43,160
Speaker 1: there would be no no, no, hit it real quick.

2428
02:15:43,200 --> 02:15:44,760
Speaker 1: Did you have a good one? Well, I know, it's

2429
02:15:44,760 --> 02:15:47,120
Speaker 1: not that I'm opposed to it. It's just that wolverines

2430
02:15:47,160 --> 02:15:49,880
Speaker 1: are really good dispersers, right, And I think that the

2431
02:15:49,960 --> 02:15:52,360
Speaker 1: best way to handle this personally is just to ensure

2432
02:15:52,400 --> 02:15:54,880
Speaker 1: that the population further to the north is robust enough

2433
02:15:54,960 --> 02:15:57,480
Speaker 1: to keep sending out dispersers to get there naturally, because

2434
02:15:57,560 --> 02:15:59,760
Speaker 1: you Rob and Peter to pay Paul right precisely, Like

2435
02:16:00,000 --> 02:16:02,760
Speaker 1: if you start punching holes in the wolverine population further

2436
02:16:02,880 --> 02:16:04,960
Speaker 1: to the north, because it's so precarious, Like if you

2437
02:16:05,040 --> 02:16:08,080
Speaker 1: start taking reproductive adults out of Montana to put them

2438
02:16:08,120 --> 02:16:12,200
Speaker 1: in Colorado, you create a hole in this metapopulation that

2439
02:16:12,360 --> 02:16:16,480
Speaker 1: potentially has repercussions later on. So that makes good sense. Yeah,

2440
02:16:16,480 --> 02:16:20,160
Speaker 1: And I generally like the natural I generally like the

2441
02:16:20,280 --> 02:16:24,760
Speaker 1: natural disbursement thing socially too. Yeah, it's socially better, so

2442
02:16:24,880 --> 02:16:26,880
Speaker 1: much better, because then you don't have the you know,

2443
02:16:26,960 --> 02:16:29,600
Speaker 1: you don't have people getting together arguments about how these

2444
02:16:29,680 --> 02:16:32,959
Speaker 1: like nasty, big northern carnivores are so much more ferocious

2445
02:16:33,000 --> 02:16:35,200
Speaker 1: than the ones that should have been here or um,

2446
02:16:35,360 --> 02:16:37,320
Speaker 1: you know those kind of that kind of resistance doesn't

2447
02:16:37,360 --> 02:16:40,520
Speaker 1: come up. So yeah, Diane Boyd, Yes, you know, she

2448
02:16:41,080 --> 02:16:44,240
Speaker 1: very much said that she wished they never fans planted

2449
02:16:44,360 --> 02:16:46,720
Speaker 1: them here into Yellowstone, remember that. Yeah, she said, you

2450
02:16:46,760 --> 02:16:48,120
Speaker 1: would have went, you would have wound up in the

2451
02:16:48,200 --> 02:16:53,560
Speaker 1: same place with a lot less friction. All right. Wolverine Foundation, Yes,

2452
02:16:53,640 --> 02:16:57,520
Speaker 1: Wolverine Foundation dot org. All right, everybody, next time you

2453
02:16:57,520 --> 02:17:02,760
Speaker 1: see a badge or gimm call the old for I mean,

2454
02:17:02,879 --> 02:17:06,880
Speaker 1: empty pounds keeps my life interesting. Thanks for Bregan