1 00:00:02,800 --> 00:00:03,000 Speaker 1: Hi. 2 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,680 Speaker 2: I'm Christine, one of the producers on Zero. Today I'm 3 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,520 Speaker 2: sharing an episode from another climate podcast that you might like. 4 00:00:08,840 --> 00:00:12,360 Speaker 2: It's called Drilled. Zero's host okshot ROTHI was a guest 5 00:00:12,400 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 2: on Drilled earlier this year talking about his book Climate 6 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 2: Capitalism and how climate solutions and capitalism might coexist. We're 7 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:21,720 Speaker 2: dropping that episode in the feed today. If you like 8 00:00:21,760 --> 00:00:23,759 Speaker 2: what you hear, you can follow Drilled wherever you get 9 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:24,480 Speaker 2: your podcasts. 10 00:00:24,760 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 1: Enjoy. 11 00:00:34,360 --> 00:00:37,880 Speaker 3: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westervelt. Today 12 00:00:37,920 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 3: we have the second episode in a mini series i'm 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,320 Speaker 3: calling Messy Conversations. These are episodes where we're going to 14 00:00:44,440 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 3: tackle some of the thornier questions around how to approach 15 00:00:48,440 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 3: the climate crisis. This time around, my guest is a journalist. 16 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 3: I respect a lot O shot ROTHI at Bloomberg. Akshat 17 00:00:56,560 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 3: wrote a book recently called Climate Capitalism, title I initially 18 00:01:01,480 --> 00:01:04,240 Speaker 3: found a little bit off putting. I'm not gonna lie. 19 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 3: Unfettered capitalism has been a major fuel to the fire 20 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 3: of global warming for years, so I tend to be 21 00:01:11,280 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 3: a little bit skeptical about suggestions that capitalism is going 22 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:17,759 Speaker 3: to solve the climate crisis. But in both his book 23 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:21,160 Speaker 3: and in this interview, actually injected some nuance into that 24 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:24,200 Speaker 3: conversation that's kind of been missing for a while, and 25 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:26,880 Speaker 3: I felt like it was important to share. I hope 26 00:01:26,880 --> 00:01:30,759 Speaker 3: you find our conversation interesting. That's coming right up after 27 00:01:30,840 --> 00:01:38,680 Speaker 3: this quick break. 28 00:01:42,040 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: My name is Akshatrati and I'm a senior reporter for 29 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 1: climate at Bloomberg News. I'm also the author of Climate Capitalism, 30 00:01:50,120 --> 00:01:51,680 Speaker 1: Winning the Global Race to Zero. 31 00:01:51,520 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 4: Emissions and is the book out now. 32 00:01:54,600 --> 00:01:58,680 Speaker 1: It is out everywhere except US and Canada, where it 33 00:01:58,720 --> 00:01:59,840 Speaker 1: has come out in March. 34 00:02:00,240 --> 00:02:02,120 Speaker 4: In March. Okay, March twenty twenty. 35 00:02:01,880 --> 00:02:03,680 Speaker 1: Four, Yes, twelfth March. 36 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, awesome, that's exciting. So have you been doing 37 00:02:07,120 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 4: book tours and whatnot in the UK? 38 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:12,399 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, it's been quite nice. I've done a few 39 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:14,840 Speaker 1: book events now and there've been a nice mix. I've 40 00:02:14,880 --> 00:02:19,720 Speaker 1: done one at a university, one at a consultancy, one 41 00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 1: at a conference, and every time I've been quite amazed 42 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: by the sophisticated level of questions that people have about 43 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:32,880 Speaker 1: the energy transition. You know, any of these audiences are 44 00:02:32,960 --> 00:02:36,120 Speaker 1: kind of a bubble, but even despite being different bubbles, 45 00:02:36,160 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 1: there is a good level of understanding that I was 46 00:02:39,680 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: a little bit surprised about. That's encouraging to hear exactly right. 47 00:02:45,040 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, what's your favorite question that you've gotten that 48 00:02:48,639 --> 00:02:51,240 Speaker 4: you were like, oh, smart people, thank you for coming 49 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:51,840 Speaker 4: to my talk. 50 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: Well, the favorite question is essentially alrighty, you have a 51 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:59,800 Speaker 1: bunch of success stories in the book. That's great. What 52 00:02:59,840 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: do you not have in the book? And it's actually 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:05,600 Speaker 1: favorite in the sense that it's a long laundry list 54 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:08,200 Speaker 1: of things I don't have in the book, because there's 55 00:03:08,240 --> 00:03:10,639 Speaker 1: just so many things that we don't have success stories 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: for that we need success stories for. But I try 57 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:16,799 Speaker 1: and pick one that I feel like we really need 58 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:20,840 Speaker 1: to get on very quickly, is how can we move 59 00:03:21,120 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: billions and trillions of dollars into developing countries for climate 60 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 1: solutions that we know work, are scalable, and they desperately 61 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 1: want them. 62 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:34,800 Speaker 4: Yes, I think this is like the biggest blocker actually 63 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 4: to transition. 64 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: Absolutely, this is now completely the bottleneck that'll determine whether 65 00:03:41,360 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 1: we meet our climate goals or not yet. 66 00:03:43,400 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 4: So actually I wanted to talk to you a little 67 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 4: bit about that and the other solution piece that you 68 00:03:50,920 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 4: know I always obsess about, which is we know that 69 00:03:53,560 --> 00:03:55,880 Speaker 4: these companies have done all these things, and by these 70 00:03:55,880 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 4: companies I mean fossil fuel companies and some other actors 71 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 4: as well. I've done all this to sort of warp 72 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:05,360 Speaker 4: the markets. What are the solutions to making sure that 73 00:04:05,360 --> 00:04:08,920 Speaker 4: that doesn't continue, because you know, there are these success 74 00:04:08,920 --> 00:04:14,440 Speaker 4: stories in renewables and other types of technologies, but there's 75 00:04:14,480 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 4: also kind of continued work to try to block that success. 76 00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:22,400 Speaker 4: So I'm curious what you think about that as well. 77 00:04:22,440 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 4: But first let's talk about the development funding thing. Is 78 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 4: there anything that you've seen that makes you think that 79 00:04:28,680 --> 00:04:31,680 Speaker 4: people have a good plan in place, Like, you know, 80 00:04:31,720 --> 00:04:34,760 Speaker 4: do you think what Barbados is doing is potentially the way. 81 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: Forward or yeah. So if we look at the history 82 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:42,520 Speaker 1: of this a little bit, the place where climate finance 83 00:04:42,680 --> 00:04:45,600 Speaker 1: as a phrase probably was first used was to try 84 00:04:45,640 --> 00:04:50,920 Speaker 1: and essentially fund this movement of money from developed countries 85 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: to developing countries through carbon offsets. Right the Kyoto Protocols, 86 00:04:55,720 --> 00:04:58,600 Speaker 1: signed up to in nineteen ninety seven but really came 87 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: into force in two thousand and five. Was predicated on 88 00:05:02,160 --> 00:05:05,440 Speaker 1: the fact that rich countries will reduce their emissions and 89 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: what they can't reduce, they'll buy offsets. From developing countries 90 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,120 Speaker 1: and that'll transfer funds that developing countries need to be 91 00:05:12,160 --> 00:05:16,599 Speaker 1: able to make that transition happen themselves. Of course, we 92 00:05:16,760 --> 00:05:21,159 Speaker 1: know what happened. Offsets have been a failure in both 93 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,880 Speaker 1: what they deliver on the common savings as they promise, 94 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: but also on the amount of money that actually got 95 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:29,919 Speaker 1: transferred to developing countries. A lot of it was taken 96 00:05:30,000 --> 00:05:34,080 Speaker 1: up by middlemen, and if any projects did take off, 97 00:05:34,440 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: it's unclear how much of a difference they have really made. 98 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: So the modern iteration of climate finance is only really 99 00:05:42,640 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: starting in the last few years. The earliest example of 100 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: it is this wonky term the Just Energy Transition Partnership, 101 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:56,839 Speaker 1: where G seven countries mostly are coming together and trying 102 00:05:56,920 --> 00:06:01,839 Speaker 1: to make deals with countries like South Africa, Indonesia, Vietnam, 103 00:06:02,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: and then there's a whole host of other countries in 104 00:06:04,400 --> 00:06:09,320 Speaker 1: the waiting list where they want to try and provide funds, 105 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: both government funds but also private funds to help these 106 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,839 Speaker 1: countries transition away from coal. And again it's a good 107 00:06:17,839 --> 00:06:20,240 Speaker 1: bet to make to try and help these countries that 108 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:23,360 Speaker 1: do want to move away from coal, but it's messy 109 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:26,360 Speaker 1: because each of the country has very different politics. Each 110 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: of the country has different reliance on coal, and we 111 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:32,400 Speaker 1: don't know whether it's going to work, but at least 112 00:06:32,400 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 1: that's one large scale attempt right now that is in process. 113 00:06:36,880 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: Then there's a third one which is more theoretical and 114 00:06:39,920 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: yet has a number of people who are pushing towards it, 115 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 1: which is the Bridge Doown initiative. And again it's a 116 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: very complicated thing. They've gone through two iterations of making 117 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 1: this much bigger than what it was in the first iteration. 118 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 1: But it comes down to trying to reform international financial 119 00:06:58,960 --> 00:07:02,800 Speaker 1: institutions so that they can actually use that money that 120 00:07:02,839 --> 00:07:07,479 Speaker 1: they do have toward climate purposes and also increase the 121 00:07:07,560 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 1: amount of money that they can give towards climate purposes. 122 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 1: One example that I've found quite interesting is again a 123 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: bit won key, but quite crucial, is to provide currency 124 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:24,080 Speaker 1: risk hedging, which is basically to say, you know, if 125 00:07:24,120 --> 00:07:27,240 Speaker 1: you're investing in South Africa and you're investing in a 126 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: country that is not operated on the dollar, then you're 127 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 1: going to have some risk, especially if it's an emerging economy, 128 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:38,360 Speaker 1: that their currency might fall, it might be volatile, it 129 00:07:38,440 --> 00:07:42,120 Speaker 1: might change value more frequently than the dollar. Changes value. 130 00:07:42,280 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: But if you are an international investor who wants the 131 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:49,120 Speaker 1: return in dollars, you want some form of guarantee that 132 00:07:49,120 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: that currency exchange will be more stable than it typically is, 133 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: and international financial institutions can really enable that. But again, 134 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,240 Speaker 1: these are just proposals right now, so that's why it's 135 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: not there in the book. 136 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:04,960 Speaker 4: I really want to have you talk through the example 137 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 4: of solar in India because I feel like this is 138 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 4: something that doesn't get a lot of coverage. The thing 139 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 4: that we hear in the US all the time is, oh, 140 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,880 Speaker 4: Indian coal. And yes, there is still quite a strong 141 00:08:17,040 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 4: coal industry in India, and there are some people working 142 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 4: to obstruct progress on other things. But what you show 143 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 4: here is how solar is breaking through. 144 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: So we think about solar as this source of energy 145 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:31,760 Speaker 1: now that is cheapest form of energy that you can 146 00:08:31,800 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: get almost anywhere in the world, and that's been true 147 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:39,880 Speaker 1: for now a few years. But India's solar journey began 148 00:08:40,480 --> 00:08:43,200 Speaker 1: in the early to mid two thousands when the country 149 00:08:43,240 --> 00:08:46,839 Speaker 1: started to recognize that there is this technology that is clean, 150 00:08:46,960 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: that is distributed, that can be quite easily used in 151 00:08:51,440 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: India given it its own solar resources, and so India 152 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 1: started to copy some of the policies that had been 153 00:08:58,480 --> 00:09:01,560 Speaker 1: invented in the West, where it said we'll provide a 154 00:09:01,559 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: feed in tariff, which is basically, we'll provide you payment 155 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 1: if you install solar on your roof, and that way, 156 00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,199 Speaker 1: even though solar panels in the mid two thousand and 157 00:09:11,120 --> 00:09:14,000 Speaker 1: early twenty tens are a little more expensive than they 158 00:09:14,080 --> 00:09:16,320 Speaker 1: should be, you'll be able to make that money back 159 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: because we'll pay you for generating that solar power. However, 160 00:09:20,160 --> 00:09:24,200 Speaker 1: India as a country is quite capital restricted, which is 161 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: it doesn't have that much money to be able to 162 00:09:26,720 --> 00:09:31,319 Speaker 1: build huge amount of solar, and even individuals trying to 163 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: build rooftop solar don't have the kind of capital needed 164 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: to really make solar work. But despite that, the country 165 00:09:40,160 --> 00:09:43,000 Speaker 1: was keen on trying to set a target. So what 166 00:09:43,040 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: it did in twenty fourteen in the run up to 167 00:09:45,760 --> 00:09:49,559 Speaker 1: the Paris Agreement is set a target for a twenty 168 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: gigawatt deployment by twenty twenty two, thinking that's a good 169 00:09:54,320 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 1: ambitious goal and we should try and meet it. In 170 00:09:56,960 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 1: the process, it gave the signal to a lot of 171 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 1: market players to get ready to try and grab onto 172 00:10:03,280 --> 00:10:06,559 Speaker 1: the opportunity that presents itself because the government has put 173 00:10:06,600 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: a mandate. And one of the companies that a profile 174 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,880 Speaker 1: in the book is renew Power, which is now just 175 00:10:11,920 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 1: called renew And it started with this guy who had 176 00:10:15,080 --> 00:10:17,520 Speaker 1: worked in the West, who'd worked in the financial industry 177 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:21,120 Speaker 1: in America, but his Indian by birth, and he comes 178 00:10:21,160 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: back to India, has worked in the wind energy industry, 179 00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:28,439 Speaker 1: looking at how renewables can work in India and recognize 180 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,400 Speaker 1: that solar is the opportunity I should grab onto and 181 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: creates this company. And what he recognizes is that if 182 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: you want to scale technologies in a country like India, 183 00:10:39,520 --> 00:10:42,800 Speaker 1: you really do require capital. And he uses some of 184 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:46,240 Speaker 1: his own expertise from working in the finance industry in 185 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 1: the US to try and raise money from the likes 186 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,880 Speaker 1: of Goldman Sachs eventually from the Canadian Pension Fund, and 187 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: then marries it to trying to work in a country 188 00:10:56,240 --> 00:11:02,160 Speaker 1: where governance's weak, corruption is high, where things don't happen 189 00:11:02,200 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: as quickly as businesses would be pretty used to happening 190 00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:10,080 Speaker 1: in Europe or America. And at every step he's figuring 191 00:11:10,080 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 1: out what in Hindi would call jugaad or what we 192 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: would refer to in the West as hustling. Every step 193 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: where there is a blockage, they hustle. They find a 194 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: solution that allows them to open it up a little 195 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,440 Speaker 1: bit and allows them to grow their company, and slowly 196 00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 1: but surely, through that process, Renew goes on to become 197 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: the largest solar developer in the country. And even since 198 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:38,959 Speaker 1: I've written the chapter, there have been so many other 199 00:11:38,960 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: players that are trying to catch up to what Renew 200 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,880 Speaker 1: is doing, and now some of them are even succeeding 201 00:11:44,920 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: despite not having capital being raised from abroad, because the 202 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:53,240 Speaker 1: market has proven itself and solar is a solution that 203 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:56,840 Speaker 1: people can see works and actually makes money. So you 204 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,360 Speaker 1: do need these initial injections of that may come from abroad. 205 00:12:01,880 --> 00:12:04,920 Speaker 1: But once you get the engine going, the capitalist engine, 206 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: so to speak, with the government direction, obviously, you can 207 00:12:09,000 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: see that success can be scaled in other places. 208 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,480 Speaker 4: We talked about sort of availability of finance, and I 209 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:17,560 Speaker 4: feel like another thing that comes up a lot is 210 00:12:17,600 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 4: availability of technology. And you mentioned this in the book too, 211 00:12:21,480 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 4: that there's a pretty prevalent inaccuracy. I guess in the 212 00:12:24,679 --> 00:12:26,480 Speaker 4: climate movement, this is like, oh, we have all the 213 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:28,839 Speaker 4: tech we need and it's all cheap enough to deploy now, 214 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:32,200 Speaker 4: and that's not quite true. But it's also the case 215 00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 4: that getting that technology to global south countries has tended 216 00:12:36,360 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 4: to move a lot more slowly. 217 00:12:38,160 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 1: A very good example of this is what happened with 218 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:46,320 Speaker 1: COVID vaccines. Right we faced a pandemic. Fortunately, by that 219 00:12:46,440 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: time there was a technology called mRNA which won a 220 00:12:50,720 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 1: Nobel Prize earlier this year, that could be used to 221 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:56,679 Speaker 1: make vaccines, but it was pretty advanced and not all 222 00:12:56,720 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: countries had it. It was mostly sitting in America and 223 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:04,040 Speaker 1: in Europe, and there was a human cry about how 224 00:13:04,160 --> 00:13:07,359 Speaker 1: if we're able to develop a vaccine using this technology, 225 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: that technology and that vaccine should be made available worldwide, 226 00:13:11,559 --> 00:13:15,600 Speaker 1: globally without patents, so that we can solve this problem quickly. 227 00:13:16,040 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 1: And of course we didn't do that. Patterns still remained, 228 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 1: and yes, eventually we did get the vaccine to most places, 229 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 1: but in the process we did lose probably millions of 230 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 1: lives that could have been saved had we not had 231 00:13:29,360 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 1: our world where technology transfer is so complicated with green technologies, 232 00:13:35,480 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: there is a risk of that happening, But I would 233 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:43,080 Speaker 1: suggest that because the climate emergency isn't at quite the 234 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:48,480 Speaker 1: concentrated scale that a pandemic is, and that it's not 235 00:13:48,720 --> 00:13:52,320 Speaker 1: one technology that's going to tackle all problems. We need 236 00:13:52,360 --> 00:13:56,199 Speaker 1: all sorts of technologies that we actually have more room 237 00:13:56,360 --> 00:14:00,480 Speaker 1: to be able to make technology transfer work across countries. 238 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:05,240 Speaker 1: A very good example is solar panels. They were invented 239 00:14:05,280 --> 00:14:08,319 Speaker 1: in America, they were really scaled up as an industry 240 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: for climate purposes in Europe where Germany and then eventually 241 00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: Spain gave lots and lots of subsidies to deploy solar panels. 242 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: It was really China that made it absolutely cheap. It's 243 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: China that is now responsible for the solar boom that 244 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:29,360 Speaker 1: the rest of the world is experiencing, and of course 245 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:32,280 Speaker 1: that's come with risks of trying to raise trade barriers 246 00:14:32,280 --> 00:14:36,960 Speaker 1: so that you know, countries like America or parts of 247 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 1: India also have their own capacity to be able to 248 00:14:39,680 --> 00:14:42,960 Speaker 1: make solar panels. But what we do know is, unlike 249 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: fossil fuels, which have to be mined and then transported 250 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: from one specific place, once you provide a solar panel, 251 00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 1: you don't also have to provide the sun that's already there. 252 00:14:52,600 --> 00:14:56,720 Speaker 1: So there is a distributive nature in green technologies that 253 00:14:56,760 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: we can use to acceleate the energy transition, and so far, 254 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: fortunately technology transfer hasn't been a barrier for progress. But 255 00:15:06,720 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: in a world where we are starting to put up 256 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: more trade barriers and where future technologies like hydrogen or 257 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: carbon capture or carbon removal, which is a growing technology 258 00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:19,960 Speaker 1: that we eventually will need a lot of, it is 259 00:15:20,000 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: a risk that we will slow down the energy transition, 260 00:15:22,920 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: that we will slow down our ability to be able 261 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: to reach net zero to stop warming, and it's a 262 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:32,000 Speaker 1: risk that we all should be aware of and working 263 00:15:32,000 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 1: to avoid. 264 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 4: I'd love to have you talk about this streaming that 265 00:15:35,320 --> 00:15:37,160 Speaker 4: you have in the book, which I think is really 266 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:41,480 Speaker 4: helpful that there's been a lot of discussion about. Hey, look, 267 00:15:41,720 --> 00:15:46,040 Speaker 4: Evennom Chomsky himself is like, there's not enough time to 268 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 4: replace the entire economic system and deal with climate change 269 00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:53,520 Speaker 4: in time. So what do we do? And you sort 270 00:15:53,520 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 4: of suggest we can reform capitalism and we can use 271 00:15:56,680 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 4: it in better ways. So yeah, i'd love to hear 272 00:15:59,680 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 4: you talk about that a little bit, and also about 273 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,920 Speaker 4: the governance that's needed to enable that to happen. 274 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. When I started writing this book, what I was 275 00:16:08,640 --> 00:16:11,560 Speaker 1: seeing was that there were all these solutions that were 276 00:16:11,560 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: scaling in different contexts globally. But there's this large narrative 277 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 1: that there are blockers in the system, whether it's business, 278 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:25,720 Speaker 1: whether it's politics, whether it's global diplomacy, that are stopping 279 00:16:26,080 --> 00:16:29,960 Speaker 1: any progress from happening. And so one reason I wanted 280 00:16:30,000 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 1: to write the book was to try and see if 281 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,040 Speaker 1: that is true, if progress is not happening at all, 282 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,480 Speaker 1: And very quickly I found out that's not the case. 283 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,040 Speaker 1: So through the book, I have these examples of how 284 00:16:40,080 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: solar scaled in India, how windscale scaled in Denmark, how 285 00:16:44,200 --> 00:16:48,560 Speaker 1: batteries and electric cars scaled up in China. But alongside it, 286 00:16:48,600 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: I also recognized very quickly that there are very crucial 287 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:57,680 Speaker 1: enabling factors that allowed these technologies to get to scale, 288 00:16:58,240 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 1: and those are policy, finance, global diplomacy, shareholder activism. All 289 00:17:05,200 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: of these things are also starting to play out in 290 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 1: their own way at scale in different countries. And so 291 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:15,679 Speaker 1: it is possible, even in the economic system that we 292 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: sit and that we must recognize has contributed to worsening 293 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,679 Speaker 1: climate change, that it's possible to tweak it to work 294 00:17:22,840 --> 00:17:27,639 Speaker 1: for tackling climate change. And we have many examples of it. 295 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: We don't have to look at one. The American capitalistic system, 296 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,480 Speaker 1: with what's happening with the Inflation Reduction Act, is trying 297 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: to use whatever political agreement there can be in one 298 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: party to try and push for subsidies for green technologies. 299 00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: The European capitalism is quite different. There is actually broad 300 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: political agreement in Europe to do something about climate change, 301 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: but they do not have quite the capital capacity of America, 302 00:17:56,520 --> 00:17:59,880 Speaker 1: so they are not going down the huge subsidies route. 303 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: They are providing some subsidies, but mostly they're providing direction. 304 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 1: They're laying out a clear plan for when we need 305 00:18:06,640 --> 00:18:08,919 Speaker 1: to get to net zero, what each sector in the 306 00:18:08,960 --> 00:18:14,240 Speaker 1: economy must do. They are taxing emissions, which incentivizes people 307 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: to pollute less, and they're laying down very strict rules 308 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:22,760 Speaker 1: around what a green investment would be, and that's allowing 309 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,480 Speaker 1: for people to put money in the right places. Chinese 310 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: capitalism is very different. It doesn't start with the place 311 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,120 Speaker 1: of we want to tackle climate change, although they do 312 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:36,199 Speaker 1: because they recognize China is going to be affected. It 313 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:40,200 Speaker 1: starts with we want to provide our people the kind 314 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:43,199 Speaker 1: of lifestyle that people in the West have, but we 315 00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 1: recognize fossil fuels are limited, energy resources are limited, and 316 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,240 Speaker 1: we as an economy need to grow while we do that. 317 00:18:51,680 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 1: So their solution has been to try and basically build 318 00:18:55,600 --> 00:18:59,680 Speaker 1: huge industries that do green technology probably better than anybody 319 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: else does in the world right now, and then just 320 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:05,920 Speaker 1: export all that green technology while earning money. And it's 321 00:19:05,920 --> 00:19:09,520 Speaker 1: a little bit jingoistic. It's driven by a lot of subsidies, 322 00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 1: but there is clearly a market for these companies because 323 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,720 Speaker 1: even as they start off heavily subsidized by state, eventually 324 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: they become private enterprises, they consolidate, and there are some 325 00:19:23,000 --> 00:19:26,680 Speaker 1: champions that remain that then go on to build factories 326 00:19:26,760 --> 00:19:29,560 Speaker 1: outside China. A very good example is what's happening with 327 00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,320 Speaker 1: batteries and how China is using its lead in batteries 328 00:19:33,440 --> 00:19:36,720 Speaker 1: to go out and build factories in Germany, in Hungary, 329 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: eventually in the US and in Mexico. So you get 330 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 1: these different forms of capitalism that are showing you that 331 00:19:44,720 --> 00:19:48,800 Speaker 1: within the political context that is available, you can start 332 00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:52,919 Speaker 1: to tweak the rules such that they will help reduce 333 00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:59,480 Speaker 1: emissions while addressing global competitiveness, economic growth, all things that 334 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,840 Speaker 1: the capitalist system requires for you to be able to 335 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: push these solutions forward. 336 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 4: Do you get a sense that in places like the US, 337 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 4: for example, where there really hasn't been sort of guardrails 338 00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 4: put in place, that it's possible to grain in the 339 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:26,719 Speaker 4: more out of control aspects of capitalism that example, So 340 00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:29,440 Speaker 4: with the fossil fuel industry, for example, in the US, 341 00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 4: what you see when regulation is put in place, or 342 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 4: even when demand goes down for fossil fuels is a 343 00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 4: really really well funded effort to get around regulation and 344 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:45,879 Speaker 4: to sort of artificially increase demand. You see in the 345 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,199 Speaker 4: tracking context is like the most obvious right where you 346 00:20:49,320 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 4: had kind of unfettered development of that resource, then a glut. 347 00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 4: They pushed for a lift on the export band to 348 00:20:59,520 --> 00:21:02,120 Speaker 4: deal with that glut, and they got it. Then they 349 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:06,840 Speaker 4: pushed to basically use one of the byproducts of tracking 350 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:10,880 Speaker 4: for plastic that nobody wanted. That didn't stop them from 351 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:14,800 Speaker 4: building out a massive number of petrochemical plants that are 352 00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 4: just dumping simply use plastics on the market, and everyone 353 00:21:18,520 --> 00:21:22,080 Speaker 4: is saying they're projections for demand for that are off, 354 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:26,800 Speaker 4: but that hasn't actually impacted the supply side yet. And 355 00:21:26,920 --> 00:21:29,720 Speaker 4: you know, you see it with sympeic fabrics and stuff too, right, 356 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 4: So this thing that's happened where certain industries, for sure 357 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 4: in the US are sort of allowed to just tinker 358 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,840 Speaker 4: with the market to suit their needs. 359 00:21:42,160 --> 00:21:44,520 Speaker 1: Before we get to the US context, I think it's 360 00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,080 Speaker 1: worth taking a step back and just recognizing, and I 361 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,800 Speaker 1: think we don't do that enough, is the fact that 362 00:21:52,480 --> 00:21:55,800 Speaker 1: almost all the progress that has happened so far on 363 00:21:55,920 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: trying to reduce emissions has happened despite the social industries 364 00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: heavy attempts to try in derail progress. And so I 365 00:22:06,760 --> 00:22:09,680 Speaker 1: think we should take hope is probably not the right word, 366 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: but we should take some hope that despite the level 367 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: of barriers that are in front of us to try 368 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: and deal with this problem, progress can be made. Now 369 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:23,280 Speaker 1: coming to the specific problem of American capitalism and how 370 00:22:23,359 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 1: much of it is tied to essentially corporate greed, because 371 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:33,359 Speaker 1: your ability as a company to lobby politicians to just 372 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: do your bidding very strong in America, not to say 373 00:22:36,640 --> 00:22:40,200 Speaker 1: it's not there in other countries. That exists in almost 374 00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 1: all resource intensive countries. Canada has it, Norway has it, 375 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,679 Speaker 1: Australia has it, and to some extent countries like India 376 00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: where there's a big base of coal jobs, even as 377 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 1: most of the coal industry is state owned, has that 378 00:22:54,880 --> 00:22:57,480 Speaker 1: lobbying power because those are state owned industries that are 379 00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,639 Speaker 1: talking into the years of the very politics who are 380 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:05,120 Speaker 1: making these decisions. But one thing to recognize is that 381 00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:08,240 Speaker 1: climate progress is sort of two steps forward, one step back. 382 00:23:08,480 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: You know, all the curves that we see on climate 383 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:14,160 Speaker 1: models that say to reach one point five degrees celsius, 384 00:23:14,640 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: here's a smooth path that you must take to reach zero, 385 00:23:18,480 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 1: is likely to be pretty jagged because we are going 386 00:23:21,119 --> 00:23:24,959 Speaker 1: to get these swings between politicians who care about climate 387 00:23:25,000 --> 00:23:27,560 Speaker 1: and politicians who don't. And it's again not just an 388 00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: America problem. We're starting to see that here in the 389 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,679 Speaker 1: UK with the Conservative government that was responsible for a 390 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:37,520 Speaker 1: net zero target now sort of turning its back on 391 00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: green policies. But what happens here is that now we' 392 00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:46,399 Speaker 1: vented this period where there is recognition that climate change 393 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:50,919 Speaker 1: and climate impacts are very real, very intense, and they 394 00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: are going to hurt not just people but economies. Right 395 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 1: from a capitalistic perspective, is it going to hurt growth, yes? 396 00:23:58,280 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: Is it going to hurt companies yes. Even if you 397 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:03,440 Speaker 1: don't care about people, you're going to have to care 398 00:24:03,480 --> 00:24:08,159 Speaker 1: about these other forces that capitalism forces you to think about. 399 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:11,120 Speaker 1: If you have any amount of long term thinking in 400 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:16,679 Speaker 1: your political mindset, in your company mindset, you recognize that 401 00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: the future is going to have green technologies in abundance, 402 00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:25,840 Speaker 1: and if you don't get ahead of the game, you're 403 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,440 Speaker 1: going to be lost behind. You know, a very good 404 00:24:28,440 --> 00:24:31,560 Speaker 1: example is Tesla for all the problems that Elon Musk 405 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: is for social media and for political views, we do 406 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: know that Tesla has allowed lots of other auto manufacturers 407 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: to start focusing on electric cars, and we are going 408 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 1: to get that across different domains and across different industrial sectors. 409 00:24:49,400 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: Will we do it fast enough? Is the question? Whether 410 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:54,439 Speaker 1: we'll do it or not is no longer the question. 411 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:55,600 Speaker 1: That's really interesting. 412 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,199 Speaker 4: You mentioned that there's this low list of things in 413 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 4: the book and that the thing that you sort of 414 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:09,480 Speaker 4: think is most necessary is the development finance piece. I 415 00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 4: think this is such a big thing going into cop 416 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,439 Speaker 4: and I keep seeing a lot of a lot of 417 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:20,560 Speaker 4: talk around the thing that you also mentioned the book, 418 00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:24,320 Speaker 4: which is like, look, yes, some global salt countries are 419 00:25:24,320 --> 00:25:28,560 Speaker 4: going to need to use fossil fuels for longer in 420 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,439 Speaker 4: order to sort of catch up on development and to 421 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 4: unlock some of the capital needed for the energy transition 422 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:38,239 Speaker 4: and for climate adaptation and all of that stuff. And 423 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 4: I'm wondering if you could just like break that down 424 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:42,399 Speaker 4: a little bit, because I feel like this is another 425 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:45,680 Speaker 4: thing that becomes very black and white in climate conversations. 426 00:25:45,920 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, so I'll do it in two ways. Right. If 427 00:25:48,840 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 1: we take just climate finance, now that's a very big 428 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,240 Speaker 1: broad term. It takes into consideration all kinds of money. 429 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 1: So the best way in which I've been able to 430 00:25:58,520 --> 00:26:01,199 Speaker 1: make sense of climate finance is to put it in 431 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:06,000 Speaker 1: three buckets that Avinash Pursud, who is the economic advisor 432 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:09,879 Speaker 1: to the Prime Minister of Barbados Mia Motley, told me. 433 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 1: The first bucket is the biggest bucket. It's the bucket 434 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:20,440 Speaker 1: of money that needs to be invested into solutions that 435 00:26:20,520 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: will make more money. So building a solar plant is 436 00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: going to make more money because we know solar plants 437 00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,360 Speaker 1: can be profitable, but there is an upfront cost for 438 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:35,120 Speaker 1: it and that needs to be met and developing countries 439 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: require that help. But because at the end of it 440 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: you're going to make money, the difficulty of actually moving 441 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:47,280 Speaker 1: that money is less. There's a second bucket, which we 442 00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: can class as adaptation, but it's essentially a bucket where 443 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: governments have to pay for it now so that they 444 00:26:55,880 --> 00:27:00,280 Speaker 1: avoid future costs. If you're able to avoid if you're 445 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: able to adapt to a certain level of warming, if 446 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:05,080 Speaker 1: you're able to adapt to a certain level of sea 447 00:27:05,160 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: level rise, then you will avoid costs from the damages 448 00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: that may come if you don't adapt to it. So 449 00:27:13,240 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: that is something that governments can are capable of doing 450 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 1: because they have the ability to be able to think 451 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: a little more long term and to be able to 452 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 1: sort of borrow from the future to pay for current expenses. 453 00:27:25,160 --> 00:27:28,200 Speaker 1: And then there's the last bucket, which is the smallest 454 00:27:28,200 --> 00:27:31,959 Speaker 1: bucket should be the smallest bucket, which is loss in damage, 455 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: which is paying for impacts that developing countries are suffering 456 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: will suffer at greater scale in the future, for damages 457 00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:45,800 Speaker 1: that are being caused because of rich countries emissions that 458 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:52,639 Speaker 1: have warmed the planet. So mitigation, adaptation, compensation could be 459 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,840 Speaker 1: the three ways in which you understand it. But because 460 00:27:55,840 --> 00:27:59,600 Speaker 1: the buckets have money doing different things and can be 461 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:02,400 Speaker 1: paid for for in different things, it's much better to 462 00:28:02,480 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: think about what that money does. So now take it 463 00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:09,440 Speaker 1: to what cop twenty eight is all about It's about 464 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 1: global diplomacy. It's about trying to mostly now get developing 465 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: countries the money from developed countries that they deserve. But 466 00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:22,440 Speaker 1: that money has to be split into these three buckets 467 00:28:22,920 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: and has to be fought over with that clarity, because 468 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 1: if you're going to ask for one hundred million dollar 469 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: climate finance fund, which is going to help you build 470 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: solar panels, that's actually a much easier fight to have 471 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 1: now because that solar panel is going to make money. 472 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 1: But if you're fighting for compensation for loss and damage 473 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 1: from climate impacts, it's a much harder fight because no 474 00:28:47,200 --> 00:28:49,760 Speaker 1: rich country just wants to give money to developing countries. 475 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,640 Speaker 1: We are living in a world where foreign aid is 476 00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:55,000 Speaker 1: being cut not just for climate, but for all kinds 477 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:58,440 Speaker 1: of purposes, and so you have to come with a 478 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,680 Speaker 1: different negotiation tactic, a different motivation to try and fight 479 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: for lost and damage funds. I think what's happening now 480 00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,640 Speaker 1: is trying to put it all together muddels of the conversation, 481 00:29:11,800 --> 00:29:15,880 Speaker 1: both for people but also for the various parties that 482 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: need to sort this out. And money is the bottleneck 483 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:23,240 Speaker 1: right now for enabling the transition to go at the 484 00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:27,680 Speaker 1: speed at it to go at the speed as it must. 485 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,800 Speaker 1: There is enough money in developed countries being put into 486 00:29:30,800 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: climate solutions. There is nowhere enough money being put into 487 00:29:35,080 --> 00:29:37,160 Speaker 1: climate solutions in developing countries. 488 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,440 Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like that also really kind of puts 489 00:29:42,480 --> 00:29:47,280 Speaker 4: the lie to this framing that a lot of fossil 490 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 4: fuel spokespeople and their friends have been saying and the 491 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 4: lead up to cop which is that, you know, the 492 00:29:54,480 --> 00:29:57,920 Speaker 4: fossil fuel industry is going to help the global South 493 00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:03,120 Speaker 4: out of poverty, out of energy poverty in particular, and 494 00:30:03,720 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 4: unlock funding and all of these things. Just I feel 495 00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,440 Speaker 4: like if that were the case, then more money would 496 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:14,640 Speaker 4: have been going into the grid in general, distribution networks, 497 00:30:14,680 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 4: all of that, which would also help with the energy transition, 498 00:30:19,080 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 4: and none of that has really happened. Can I have 499 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 4: you talk about the risk of repeating some of the 500 00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:31,600 Speaker 4: less savory aspects of capitalism as the transition gets underway. 501 00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 1: So there's definitely a big risk that within trying to 502 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 1: use capitalistic systems to try and solve this problem, we 503 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:44,440 Speaker 1: forget hard woron lessons from the past. A very good 504 00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:50,800 Speaker 1: example is around mining. China currently has essentially a strangled 505 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,640 Speaker 1: hold on battery metals, not because they're all mined in China, 506 00:30:55,000 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: but because China has got long term contracts or their 507 00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:04,400 Speaker 1: own companies mining materials in Congo or in other countries 508 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: where you get cobalt and nickel and manganese and lithium 509 00:31:08,400 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 1: to be able to build batteries, and then they are 510 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 1: processed in China, and then those batteries have that material 511 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: regardless of whether they are manufactured in China or not, 512 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:21,840 Speaker 1: because that's where the material processing is happening. And of 513 00:31:21,840 --> 00:31:24,440 Speaker 1: course we are living in the twenty first century where 514 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: many of the developing countries are really developing countries because 515 00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,400 Speaker 1: of colonialism and the amount of wealth transfer that happened 516 00:31:32,440 --> 00:31:36,760 Speaker 1: in that period. There is a risk that rich developed 517 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:42,200 Speaker 1: countries with democracies fall for the sort of green colonialism 518 00:31:42,640 --> 00:31:45,440 Speaker 1: trap where they do the same thing that China is 519 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:48,840 Speaker 1: doing by going to a country and essentially owning portions 520 00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:52,000 Speaker 1: of that country to be able to satisfy their own needs. 521 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: We are starting to see some of that happen in 522 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 1: the carbon offset market. There have been recent announcements of 523 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: a Dubai company signing up memorandums of understanding with countries 524 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: like Zimbabwe, and Liberia essentially taking up as much as 525 00:32:07,080 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: five or ten percent of the entire country to be 526 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: able to generate carbon credits. But there are better ways 527 00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 1: to actually solve this problem because it is true that 528 00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,800 Speaker 1: some of these metals are just in other countries, but 529 00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,080 Speaker 1: you could be much more responsible in tapping into that resource. 530 00:32:25,520 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: One example that I am following is looking at what 531 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: the European Union is doing with trying to get access 532 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: to lithium and copper in South America, where it is 533 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 1: going out and working with governments in those regions to say, look, 534 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,560 Speaker 1: we recognize you have these resources. The world needs resources, 535 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 1: but we will also want to take on these resources 536 00:32:49,720 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 1: only if we are able to provide you something in return, 537 00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:55,680 Speaker 1: not just money. And so they are working to try 538 00:32:55,720 --> 00:33:00,880 Speaker 1: and get technology transferred. So they want electric bus manufacturing 539 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 1: happening in those regions where European companies can set up shop, 540 00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:11,360 Speaker 1: will have local manufacturing, will create both batteries and electric cars. Sorry, 541 00:33:11,640 --> 00:33:15,720 Speaker 1: we'll create both batteries and electric buses in those regions 542 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 1: which require those buses, while also being able to have 543 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:23,760 Speaker 1: deals where they can access metals like copper and lithium 544 00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,640 Speaker 1: for the energy transition. There are ways in which we 545 00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,360 Speaker 1: can do it right, and we should really seek solutions 546 00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: where they are working, because this is a global problem 547 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:37,200 Speaker 1: and if we are going to try and tackle it, 548 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,960 Speaker 1: then we need countries to work together as much as possible. 549 00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,960 Speaker 1: And if you go down the green colonialism route, the 550 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 1: risk of fracturing what is already a pretty fractured world 551 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: only grows. Capitalism has become this big thing which people 552 00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: basically just lump all the problems that are there in 553 00:33:55,280 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 1: the world under one word. At its core, capitalism is 554 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:07,240 Speaker 1: private ownership in a competitive market. And the only way 555 00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:11,719 Speaker 1: in which capitalism can ever survive on the planet is 556 00:34:11,960 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: if it's working for the people it is serving. And 557 00:34:16,239 --> 00:34:20,040 Speaker 1: we know that none of these markets have ever been free, right, 558 00:34:20,120 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 1: They're always regulated, whether they're regulated by governments or they're 559 00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,799 Speaker 1: regulated by nature. And so what we just need to 560 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:34,360 Speaker 1: understand is that as an incentivizing mechanism, capitalism has its problems, 561 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:38,360 Speaker 1: but those problems can be managed and can be harnessed 562 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:43,520 Speaker 1: to do our bidding, and I mean ours in humanity's bidding. 563 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: And so rather than thinking of it as something foreign 564 00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: that somebody else is operating with fingers in the back, 565 00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:58,920 Speaker 1: as some global conspiracy. It's much simpler to recognize it 566 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,560 Speaker 1: as a four that is available to be harnessed and 567 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 1: that needs to be honest through collective action. That's why 568 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:11,040 Speaker 1: I think capitalism gets the bad framing, and yes, it 569 00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 1: has its problems, but we also know we can use 570 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:14,600 Speaker 1: it for good. 571 00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:18,040 Speaker 4: So we've had this season going on for a while now, 572 00:35:18,080 --> 00:35:20,719 Speaker 4: and it's just going to continue for months because there's 573 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:24,400 Speaker 4: so many stories around this sort of global crackdown on 574 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:28,239 Speaker 4: environmental protests, which really has me thinking about the need 575 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,640 Speaker 4: to shore up democracy and democratic governance as a really 576 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 4: key piece to this whole reformation of capitalism and making 577 00:35:37,160 --> 00:35:40,200 Speaker 4: capitalism work for us. And I'm curious what you've seen 578 00:35:40,239 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 4: on that. 579 00:35:40,640 --> 00:35:43,480 Speaker 1: So while I was writing this book, another book landed 580 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: that sort of clarified the situation for me very clearly. 581 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:51,040 Speaker 1: And it's a book called A Crisis of Democratic Capitalism 582 00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:56,279 Speaker 1: by a Financial Times columnist named Martin Wolf and the 583 00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,680 Speaker 1: title kind of says it all, but basically Martin makes 584 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,879 Speaker 1: this case, which I think is absolutely true, that the 585 00:36:03,920 --> 00:36:09,120 Speaker 1: only way capitalism can survive on this planet is if 586 00:36:09,200 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 1: democracies are able to tackle its successes. And he sort 587 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,719 Speaker 1: of makes an extra case which is democracies can only 588 00:36:18,760 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: survive if they're able to use capitalism well. But leaving 589 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: the second step apart, the first step is absolutely crucial. 590 00:36:25,760 --> 00:36:31,800 Speaker 1: The places where capitalism has thrived have been places where 591 00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:37,480 Speaker 1: democracy has thrived, and the places where democracies have struggled 592 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:43,520 Speaker 1: capitalism has run rough shot and caused problems. So I 593 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:48,200 Speaker 1: think in the series that you point out where democracies 594 00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:53,279 Speaker 1: are cracking down on human rights, on fundamental ability to protest, 595 00:36:53,480 --> 00:36:58,200 Speaker 1: on fundamental restrictions, on being able to make their voice heard, 596 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: to ensure that excesses of capitalism do not run roughshot, 597 00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:08,520 Speaker 1: is going to end up causing a lot of harm. Right, 598 00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 1: it's not capitalism alone at fault, but flawed democracies that 599 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,640 Speaker 1: are at fault. So when we think of the problems 600 00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:23,439 Speaker 1: that we face, you know, a, it's obviously always much 601 00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:26,800 Speaker 1: more nuanced than pointing to one thing as the problem, 602 00:37:27,360 --> 00:37:30,920 Speaker 1: but also recognizing that there is agency. I feel like 603 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:33,560 Speaker 1: what the series showed to me as I've listened to 604 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 1: it is that despite these draconian laws coming into place, 605 00:37:40,040 --> 00:37:45,000 Speaker 1: people aren't losing hope yet. If anything, they are more 606 00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:49,520 Speaker 1: charged up. If anything, they are doubling down and trying 607 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:53,120 Speaker 1: to overcome these problems. And yes, it's a dark turn 608 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,800 Speaker 1: to be in a place where protests in a country 609 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,759 Speaker 1: like the UK, which is supposed to be a paragonautic democracy, 610 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 1: are being crushed for pretty unreasonable reasons. But it's also 611 00:38:08,719 --> 00:38:11,719 Speaker 1: true that at the same time you have all these 612 00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: people committed and doubly committed to try and make it 613 00:38:15,239 --> 00:38:16,200 Speaker 1: work despite it