WEBVTT - A Brief History of Self-Immolation Protests 0:00:01.720 --> 0:00:08.400 Al Zone Media. Oh boy, howdy, welcome back to it 0:00:08.400 --> 0:00:14.200 could happen here? A podcast about it happening here, and 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:18.200 it is different most episodes. But today the thing that 0:00:18.280 --> 0:00:22.840 is happening here is discussion about the growth of self 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.599 immolation as a form of protest from the twentieth to 0:00:26.640 --> 0:00:30.520 the twenty first century. Obviously, we are recording this less 0:00:30.560 --> 0:00:33.720 than a week after Aaron Bushnell, a twenty five year 0:00:33.760 --> 0:00:37.680 old serviceman in the United States Air Force, let himself 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:41.440 on fire in front of the Israeli Intimacy in Washington, 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:46.639 d C. And you know, repeatedly stated free Palestine as 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:48.440 he was doing it. He said more than that, obviously, 0:00:48.520 --> 0:00:52.160 he wrote, you know, I think very clearly about why 0:00:52.200 --> 0:00:55.360 he did what he was doing. This is something that 0:00:55.440 --> 0:00:57.880 you'll have heard a lot of debate about. There's a 0:00:57.920 --> 0:01:01.640 certain kind of person, particularly in the media, who feels 0:01:01.720 --> 0:01:05.120 obligated to say this is mental illness and we shouldn't 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:08.920 discuss it as anything else. I think that's wrong for 0:01:09.000 --> 0:01:10.960 the same reasons, by the way that it's wrong to 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:14.920 dismiss you any sort of mass shooter or whatever as 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:18.319 mentally ill not that either of those are similar in 0:01:18.400 --> 0:01:20.959 terms of the actions they're not. But that attempt to 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.360 dismiss it because it's something it makes you uncomfortable to 0:01:23.400 --> 0:01:26.280 consider that somebody could do something so incomprehensible to you 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.760 for a logical reason. Now, when I say a logical reason, 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:32.160 that doesn't mean I'm arguing this is something more people 0:01:32.200 --> 0:01:33.840 should do. It doesn't mean that I'm arguing that this 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:35.920 was the best thing that Bushnell could do. What I 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.880 am saying is that, from everything that is available, this 0:01:39.080 --> 0:01:41.520 was a rational act. He understood what he hoped to 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:45.919 accomplish with this, and he took concerted steps to ensure 0:01:45.959 --> 0:01:48.600 that he succeeded and that attention was drawn to it. 0:01:48.880 --> 0:01:52.760 His reason for doing it was clear. He took actions 0:01:52.840 --> 0:01:55.200 like to set up a will and whatnot. This seems 0:01:55.200 --> 0:01:57.720 to have been a rational and principled action, and we 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.240 are I'm not really primarily going to be discussing what 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:04.640 Bushnell did because I don't really know that there's much 0:02:04.680 --> 0:02:07.000 to say. You know, it's it's everyone here's stance that 0:02:07.040 --> 0:02:09.880 what's being done to Gaza is a genocide. I don't 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.920 know that this will help. I certainly hope that somehow 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:16.840 it does, but we're simply not at a point where 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:19.600 we can say what the impact of this on the 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:22.640 overall you know, situation in Gaza is going to be. 0:02:23.919 --> 0:02:25.600 Yeah, And I mean I guess like the thing we 0:02:25.600 --> 0:02:28.400 can say off the bat is like whether or not 0:02:28.520 --> 0:02:30.799 this matters is to a larger scent up to you 0:02:31.440 --> 0:02:34.880 because like someone someone like I mean, this is the thing, right, 0:02:34.960 --> 0:02:35.200 Like that. 0:02:35.280 --> 0:02:37.320 Matters in the sense that it has an impact on 0:02:37.360 --> 0:02:39.560 the Obviously, I think it matters because he was a 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:41.639 person well that too, right, Yeah, but like yeah, in 0:02:41.840 --> 0:02:43.119 the in the in the in the sense of whether 0:02:43.120 --> 0:02:45.480 its accomplishes political objectives, like that's up to. 0:02:45.560 --> 0:02:50.200 Us figuring out how we're going to run a political 0:02:50.200 --> 0:02:52.680 movement in such a way that the Shannisi gets stopped. 0:02:52.880 --> 0:02:55.480 Yeah, and that is It's not something I have a 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.480 clear answer for you on right now, but I think 0:02:57.520 --> 0:02:59.760 there I think so, I think the thing we're going 0:02:59.760 --> 0:03:01.720 to try to do that I think can be helpful 0:03:01.800 --> 0:03:03.959 in This is a tempt to provide some context on 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:08.600 what is the history of self immolation as a protest tactic, 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:12.079 How does it tend to work in the past and 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.720 in the present, and in what sort of situations has 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:19.079 it been more or less effective as an instrument of protest. 0:03:19.240 --> 0:03:21.720 That's what we're going to try to cover today. Obviously, 0:03:21.840 --> 0:03:24.200 this should not be seen as a totally comprehensive look 0:03:24.200 --> 0:03:25.519 at the entire history. 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:27.120 Of goodcast as I'm about to come. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:28.880 This is what we can get for you in about 0:03:28.880 --> 0:03:30.640 a week, and I think I think it will help 0:03:30.720 --> 0:03:33.560 and provide a broader sense of context as to how 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:36.560 this sort of thing has worked in other situations around 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:40.480 the world and throughout time. Self immolation goes back very 0:03:40.520 --> 0:03:44.000 far as a protest tactic. There were Christians who are 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:47.440 being persecuted by the Roman government in Nicodemia in three 0:03:47.560 --> 0:03:50.360 hundred AD who lit a fire in front of the 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.680 Emperor's palace and threw themselves into a bonfire as an 0:03:53.720 --> 0:03:57.040 active protest. In Russia, I think in like the sixteen hundreds, 0:03:57.520 --> 0:04:01.280 Orthodox I don't know there was an Orthodox sect. I 0:04:01.280 --> 0:04:03.800 don't really know much about them, but they they locked 0:04:03.840 --> 0:04:07.200 themselves pro in churches as a protest for some of 0:04:07.240 --> 0:04:11.120 the czar's reforms and then lit those churches on fire, 0:04:11.520 --> 0:04:14.400 so like died inside the churches that they were in. 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.359 So this is a kind of thing that goes back 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:20.080 quite a while. I'm sure there are other cases in 0:04:20.520 --> 0:04:23.039 you know, ancient history that go well before that, but 0:04:23.080 --> 0:04:25.760 it's it's not a new thing. However, when we talk 0:04:25.800 --> 0:04:28.799 about kind of twentieth and twenty first century self immolation, 0:04:29.800 --> 0:04:32.919 the first sort of really famous case of this and 0:04:32.960 --> 0:04:35.560 the one that gets brought up every single time people 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:39.880 talk about self immolation as a protest tactic was one 0:04:39.920 --> 0:04:42.800 that occurred during the Vietnam War, and it was the 0:04:42.880 --> 0:04:48.040 self immolation of a Buddhist monk named tish Quang Duk. 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.440 I believe that's Thhi. I think that's how that's pronounced. 0:04:52.720 --> 0:04:55.240 I lestn't do it before we started recording this, but 0:04:55.600 --> 0:04:57.080 that kind of stuff slips out of my head, so 0:04:57.120 --> 0:05:00.680 I apologize if that is the case. He's an interesting guy. 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.440 I think pretty his early life is probably pretty common 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.040 for people who become Buddhists, who became Buddhist monks and 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:10.320 kind of Central Vietnam in this period of time. He 0:05:10.440 --> 0:05:13.000 left home when he was like seven, he became a 0:05:13.040 --> 0:05:16.119 novice at fifteen. By twenty he was a full monk. 0:05:16.600 --> 0:05:19.000 And one of the things that's happening during this period 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:22.200 of time is the South Vietnamese government is this guy 0:05:22.279 --> 0:05:25.400 he's called a president. The president he is a dictator. 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:30.560 I think everything but name No Din DM and he's 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:34.120 a terrible guy. He's a French educated Catholic. And if 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.400 you know anything about the French history and into China 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.240 right like that, that does not suggest somebody whose role 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:44.200 before Vietnam got its independence from France was particularly great. 0:05:45.040 --> 0:05:47.919 His brother No Din knew what is the head of 0:05:47.960 --> 0:05:51.120 the secret police, And they are despite the fact that 0:05:51.200 --> 0:05:54.880 Vietnam South Vietnam is a Buddhist majority country, they're passing 0:05:54.880 --> 0:05:57.880 a lot of policies that are like actively cracking down 0:05:57.960 --> 0:06:00.800 on and reducing the right of a Buddhist people to 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:04.480 worship right. And you know, this is there's a lot 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:06.080 of reasons for this, but they kind of boiled down 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:08.200 to the fact that Dim was was horrible, was just 0:06:08.320 --> 0:06:13.640 a fucking dog shit. Yeah, really really trash. Now I've 0:06:13.680 --> 0:06:16.799 heard it said online when people bring up this self immolation, 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.279 you know, within kind of the context of of what's 0:06:19.400 --> 0:06:22.480 happened recently, like this wasn't a you know, people are 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:24.040 wrong when they say this was an act of protest 0:06:24.080 --> 0:06:26.760 the Vietnam War. It wasn't. And that is technically true 0:06:27.080 --> 0:06:29.880 because like the thing that that duke was was protesting 0:06:30.000 --> 0:06:34.640 was not US involvement in Vietnam, but he was protesting 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:38.120 the US backed government of South Vietnam, and that government 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:40.640 is very relevant to why there was a Vietnam War. 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.360 So I do kind of think it's it's not entirely 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:46.320 accurate to be like, well, this wasn't a Vietnam War protest, No, no, 0:06:46.400 --> 0:06:46.640 it was. 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:48.279 It was. It was just about the fact that, like 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:54.480 the Catholic theocratic, drug dealing fascist government, it was like murdering. 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:57.599 It seems like you're splitting the hair there, bro. 0:06:59.080 --> 0:07:01.680 I feel like the murdering Buddhist thing might have been 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.680 part of why there was so many people willing to 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:05.279 fight the South Vietnamese government. 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.320 Not a zero percent part of that equation. 0:07:08.120 --> 0:07:12.280 Maybe, but yeah, So these guys, these Buddhists, I mean 0:07:12.760 --> 0:07:15.800 Buddhist religious leaders in the country get increasingly angry about 0:07:15.800 --> 0:07:18.400 what's happening. There are debates, I think for several years, 0:07:18.520 --> 0:07:21.480 kind of within sort of the more highly ranking kind 0:07:21.560 --> 0:07:25.560 of leaders in the faith as to like, what do 0:07:25.680 --> 0:07:29.560 we do about this crackdown on our rights and like 0:07:29.600 --> 0:07:32.120 should we They were talking for quite some time about 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.080 having a self immolation protest, right Like. It was the 0:07:35.160 --> 0:07:39.120 kind of thing where there was a decent amount of 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:43.360 like discussion earlier, and Duck is actually the one who 0:07:44.040 --> 0:07:47.000 I think suggested it initially to like other leaders in 0:07:47.040 --> 0:07:49.560 the church. And yeah, while there was like for a 0:07:49.600 --> 0:07:52.400 while they tried to push back against this, eventually the 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.240 level of prosecution just became so clear that you know, 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.880 they basically said, Okay, let's like you can do this. 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.920 And Duck is going to be the guy who is 0:08:00.960 --> 0:08:04.680 going to like physically, you know, destroy his body in 0:08:04.800 --> 0:08:08.040 order to carry out this active protest, as is always 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:09.720 going to be the case when we talk about these 0:08:09.800 --> 0:08:13.200 famous self immolation cases, half of the story is the 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:16.880 guy who does or the individual who lights himself on fire, 0:08:17.160 --> 0:08:19.360 and half of the story is the reporter who happens 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:21.760 to be there. And in this case it was a 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:24.560 guy named Malcolm Brown. He is, I believe he's an 0:08:24.560 --> 0:08:29.640 American reporter. He's stationed in you know, Saigone, and he's 0:08:29.760 --> 0:08:31.800 you know, doing what a lot of journalists were doing 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.920 at the time. And in the springtime of nineteen sixty three, 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.400 there start being like these kind of messages put out 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.920 by the Buddhist Church that are sort of he describes 0:08:40.960 --> 0:08:44.880 it as hinting as some kind of spectacular protest. His 0:08:44.960 --> 0:08:46.840 guess was that it would quote most likely be a 0:08:46.880 --> 0:08:50.320 disembowlment of one of the monks or an immolation, and 0:08:50.440 --> 0:08:52.679 either way, it was something we had to pay attention to. 0:08:53.240 --> 0:08:55.520 And like a lot of journalists, he's got some sources 0:08:55.520 --> 0:08:57.880 within the church. He gets a call one day and 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.640 they're like, you should show up at this pagoda at 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:04.720 this specific time. And here is how Malcolm describes what 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:07.120 he saw. By the time I got to the pagoda 0:09:07.160 --> 0:09:09.400 where all this was being organized, it was already under way. 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:11.280 The monks and nuns were chanting a type of chant 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:13.640 that's very common at funerals and so forth. At a 0:09:13.640 --> 0:09:15.559 signal from the leader, they all started out into the 0:09:15.600 --> 0:09:18.200 street and headed toward the central part of Saigon on foot. 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:20.480 When we reached there, the monks quickly formed a circle 0:09:20.520 --> 0:09:23.319 around a precise intersection of two main streets in Saigon. 0:09:23.720 --> 0:09:25.800 A car drove up, two young monks got out of it. 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:27.600 An older monk, leaning a bit on one of the 0:09:27.640 --> 0:09:29.960 younger ones also got out. He headed right for the 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.600 center of the intersection. The two young monks brought up 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:35.440 a plastic jerry can, which proved to be gasoline. As 0:09:35.480 --> 0:09:37.560 soon as he seated himself, they poured the liquid all 0:09:37.600 --> 0:09:39.800 over him. He got out a matchbook, lighted it and 0:09:39.880 --> 0:09:42.760 dropped it in his lap and was immediately engulfed in flames. 0:09:44.320 --> 0:09:49.440 And yeah, that's you know what happened that day. Malcolm 0:09:49.520 --> 0:09:51.640 takes a picture of He takes a bunch of pictures. 0:09:51.679 --> 0:09:53.319 You can see all of them. There's a Good Time 0:09:53.440 --> 0:09:56.640 article Malcolm Brown, the Story behind the Burning Monk, that 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.000 has all of the pictures that he took, or at 0:09:59.080 --> 0:10:01.640 least like a long list of them, and they are 0:10:01.840 --> 0:10:05.280 worth seeing. They aren't. I shouldn't have to put a 0:10:05.280 --> 0:10:07.120 trigger warning in here, right, these are photos of a 0:10:07.400 --> 0:10:08.160 burning to death. 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:13.520 Like that shit sucks, say from me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, God, 0:10:13.600 --> 0:10:16.959 it doesn't look good. It looks really bad. Yeah. 0:10:17.040 --> 0:10:19.719 Now obviously one of specifically one of the photos you've 0:10:19.720 --> 0:10:21.880 probably seen it where like half of the monk's face 0:10:21.920 --> 0:10:24.160 looks okay and the other half is just like wreathed 0:10:24.200 --> 0:10:28.439 in fire. This goes like the sixties equivalent of viral right. 0:10:28.720 --> 0:10:31.640 President Kennedy said of the photograph. No news picture in 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.560 history has generated so much emotion around the world is 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.120 that one. And at the time it may have been true, 0:10:37.240 --> 0:10:39.280 and it is. It is number one. It does have 0:10:39.320 --> 0:10:41.720 a role in the anti war movement because you know, 0:10:41.800 --> 0:10:44.280 this is related to a protest against the government we 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:48.199 were backing. But this is also one of the more successful, 0:10:48.480 --> 0:10:52.760 maybe the most like directly successful cases of self immolation 0:10:52.880 --> 0:10:56.400 I've seen, because this does play a significant role in 0:10:56.520 --> 0:10:59.920 the end of Deem's presidency and his life. 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:00.360 Right. 0:11:01.040 --> 0:11:04.280 So Duck leaves a note like a lot of these 0:11:04.360 --> 0:11:07.320 people do. In his note, again is very clear minded. 0:11:07.679 --> 0:11:09.800 He ends it by saying, before closing my eyes and 0:11:09.840 --> 0:11:12.560 moving towards the vision of the Buddha, I respectfully plead 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:15.320 to President no d indem to take a mind of 0:11:15.360 --> 0:11:18.960 compassion towards the people of the nation and admit implement 0:11:19.000 --> 0:11:23.000 religious equality to maintain the strength of the homeland eternally. Yeah, 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.080 when this kind of happens, as I quoted earlier, Kennedy 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:30.120 is like shocked and furious. He yells to his national 0:11:30.160 --> 0:11:33.439 security advisor, who the fuck are these people? Like? How 0:11:33.440 --> 0:11:36.080 did we not know this was going to happen? He's 0:11:36.120 --> 0:11:39.400 he's very angry about all this. Buddhist is like, I 0:11:39.400 --> 0:11:42.120 feel like, like that's the kind of big clue I 0:11:42.200 --> 0:11:47.520 actually have trouble imagining like JFK, having a significant amount 0:11:47.520 --> 0:11:51.400 of context, aest to like what buddhismiss. 0:11:52.640 --> 0:11:52.920 God. 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:56.320 But maybe maybe I'm wrong. So I want to quote 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:59.760 from this really good medium article the suicide that changed 0:11:59.800 --> 0:12:04.160 American policy in Vietnam by a poor Va Tadepali, And 0:12:04.400 --> 0:12:07.280 this is for a series they write called near Pot, 0:12:07.280 --> 0:12:09.920 which is an interactive classroom tool for students. And I 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:14.040 found this a very readable and concise description of kind 0:12:14.040 --> 0:12:18.720 of what happened after Douk's self immolation quote. The publicity 0:12:18.720 --> 0:12:21.400 of the incident increased pressure on DIM's government to deal 0:12:21.480 --> 0:12:23.400 with the crisis, but he did not take the incident 0:12:23.440 --> 0:12:26.160 seriously enough. His response to the death was an announcement 0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:28.680 on the radio later that day that wildly missed the point. 0:12:28.840 --> 0:12:32.079 The state of affairs was moving forward so smoothly, he said, bizarrely, 0:12:32.400 --> 0:12:36.160 when this morning acting under extremist and truth concealing propaganda, 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.280 that's so doubt about the goodwill of the government. A 0:12:38.360 --> 0:12:41.640 number of people got intoxicated and caused an undeserved death 0:12:41.720 --> 0:12:43.240 that made me very sorry. 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:53.480 OK, I feel a lot of terrible statements. A it 0:12:53.559 --> 0:12:54.400 is this guy. 0:12:54.440 --> 0:12:56.400 We need to do the Bastards episode on him because 0:12:56.440 --> 0:12:58.679 DM is like he's horrible. He causes a lot of 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:00.240 damage to a lot of people, but he's that's a 0:13:00.280 --> 0:13:07.160 fucking scrub, right yeah, like fucking Stalin would never you know, 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:12.000 like the o Geese very sad you like Saddam Hussein 0:13:12.000 --> 0:13:13.040 would have gotten caught. 0:13:12.880 --> 0:13:16.120 Up in that shit. No, not my man. Listen, this 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:18.080 is like this is bush league shit even by like 0:13:18.240 --> 0:13:20.560 fucking like East Asian dictators, like can. 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.480 You get che Shek, Like no way, oh no, Kai 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:25.240 Shek wouldn't have gotten caught up in this shit. 0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:27.920 Absolutely, ny Sheck. If someone had tried to do this 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.360 specifically in chink she Chanky Sheck would have shot the 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:31.040 guy himself. 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:37.440 Absolutely yeah, oh my god. So anyway, this scrub he makes, 0:13:37.720 --> 0:13:39.600 he makes like a promise that they're going to do 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:43.720 reforms and stuff, and like while he's doing this, his family, 0:13:43.760 --> 0:13:46.440 including his brother Knew, who's like the head of the 0:13:46.440 --> 0:13:50.120 Saigon Secret Police, is basically is saying like like literally says, 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:52.240 if the Buddhists want to have another barbecue, I'll be 0:13:52.280 --> 0:13:56.000 glad to supply the gasoline. Christ and his wife, who's 0:13:56.040 --> 0:13:59.200 like a very merry Antoinette figure. Madam Knew who is. 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.280 It's his brother's wife, but she's basically the first lady 0:14:02.440 --> 0:14:06.240 right of South Vietnam. She's like, let them burn, We'll 0:14:06.240 --> 0:14:12.040 clap our hands. Oh god, So it's pretty it's pretty cool. 0:14:12.320 --> 0:14:14.280 Like DM is actually kind of the smart one in 0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:16.520 the family because he's trying to like tell his sister 0:14:16.559 --> 0:14:18.880 in law and his brother in law like nah, bra Or, 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:20.720 and his brother and his sister in law, like, you 0:14:20.720 --> 0:14:22.560 guys don't understand. We have to be a little bit 0:14:22.640 --> 0:14:24.400 careful here. This could really go badly. 0:14:24.480 --> 0:14:26.760 Yeah. It really seems like like they haven't figured out 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.880 the playbook for dealing with this yet. No, because like 0:14:29.880 --> 0:14:32.800 the successive governments, like everyone has like the same line 0:14:32.840 --> 0:14:34.800 that they say when it happens, and these people, it 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:37.920 looks like they're really kind of scrambling here. They didn't 0:14:37.960 --> 0:14:40.440 have any they'd never even considered that something like this 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:43.760 could happen. There would be reactions to their policies like this. 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.720 There are a bunch of protests by monks and nuns 0:14:46.800 --> 0:14:49.800 of the police arrest a bunch of people. This continues 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.200 to draw outrage and make the system a situation worse 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.680 new the secret police guy has his goons like ransack 0:14:57.760 --> 0:15:01.440 and destroy a bunch of like Buddhist basically a lot 0:15:01.480 --> 0:15:03.760 of people, like fourteen hundred people are like rounded up 0:15:03.760 --> 0:15:07.280 and arrested. DM accuses the monks of being part of 0:15:07.320 --> 0:15:12.040 the Viet Cong, which is again like sure, such a yeah, okay. 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.520 So one of the things that is important to understand 0:15:17.560 --> 0:15:19.440 here is that this is at a very different part 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:21.600 stage of the Vietnam War. The US has troops in 0:15:21.640 --> 0:15:25.200 the country, but not a lot, like very few compared 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:27.720 to how many are going to be there, And at 0:15:27.760 --> 0:15:30.720 this stage, DM actually isn't happy that we have even 0:15:30.760 --> 0:15:33.040 though it's got to become very clear that like the 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.880 US troops the only thing allowing this regime to stay 0:15:35.920 --> 0:15:38.720 propped up. He is like, I don't want them here. 0:15:38.760 --> 0:15:41.800 They don't even have passports, right, Like he's he's like 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:45.880 weirdly anti the like. And part of it is because 0:15:45.920 --> 0:15:49.280 the US is about to act here finally to take 0:15:49.320 --> 0:15:53.080 support away from his regime. So three days after his buddy, 0:15:53.240 --> 0:15:55.440 his brother in law or his brother Knu has a 0:15:55.480 --> 0:15:58.920 bunch of raids on these Buddhist temples, there's a cable 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:02.240 sent from DC to the US ambassador in Southern Vietnam 0:16:02.320 --> 0:16:06.480 that's like, we're not backing this guy anymore. And this 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:09.120 ends with a bunch of South Vietnamese generals who had 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.080 already been planning a coup being given the go ahead 0:16:11.080 --> 0:16:14.000 from the US basically saying like, we're not our guys 0:16:14.040 --> 0:16:16.000 are not going to take any actions to stop you 0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:19.720 from overthrowing this guy. And on November two, Dim and 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.560 his brother are kidnapped while trying to escape and they 0:16:23.560 --> 0:16:26.720 are killed not long after. So this is, you know, 0:16:27.080 --> 0:16:31.840 pretty successful self emolation. You have to say, right, yeah, yeah, 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:34.880 works seems like it works about as well as you 0:16:34.880 --> 0:16:36.800 could have hoped for that, right, like the at least, 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:38.880 I'm sure aus as well as that monk hoped, because 0:16:39.320 --> 0:16:41.960 you know, Dim is not just out of power, but 0:16:42.160 --> 0:16:44.040 is fucking killed as a result of this. 0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:47.480 So ohough, the problem is the subsequent people he has 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.320 put in charge of Yeah, also suck. 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.320 But that's that's also part of a pattern, unfortunately, and 0:16:54.480 --> 0:16:56.800 there's like a weirdly there's like a history of self 0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.560 emolation leading to regime change. We're gonna talk about Tunia 0:16:59.560 --> 0:17:01.920 at the end of the episode, and that does tend 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:03.600 to be the story of like, yeah, we got rid 0:17:03.640 --> 0:17:06.160 of the dictator and then a guy who sucked that's 0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:07.600 as much came into power. 0:17:08.440 --> 0:17:11.520 Hey, well, the the tai one one we're gonna talk 0:17:11.520 --> 0:17:13.840 about in a second actually gets pretty well. Yeah. 0:17:13.880 --> 0:17:17.000 So yeah, and before we go into that, because we're 0:17:17.000 --> 0:17:19.280 gonna let you take over from hearing meat or at 0:17:19.359 --> 0:17:21.040 least for the next couple of parts of this. But 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:35.280 first let's let our advertisers take over and we're back. 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:38.520 All right, miya, you are on deck. Yeah. 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.440 So, I think I think people are kind of broadly 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:45.159 aware kind of if you know anything more self immolations, 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:49.080 about the self emilations in Vietnam, and then also the 0:17:49.160 --> 0:17:51.760 sort of the ones in the US, like as as 0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:55.880 anti Vietnam War protests, the ones that I don't think 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.680 most people here know and that I only know about, 0:17:58.880 --> 0:18:01.640 like because like my mom was born in Taiwan, Right, 0:18:02.480 --> 0:18:07.720 is the Taiwanese self immolationis. Yeah. So this guy's name 0:18:07.880 --> 0:18:12.080 is Jian Yong Rong. He is he's also noticed the 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:16.320 thing most people call him is Nylon Jung, for reasons 0:18:16.320 --> 0:18:18.440 that I guess will become clear when he lights himself 0:18:18.480 --> 0:18:24.720 on fire. So Nylon Jung is a very very influential 0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:29.520 Uh well, okay, I don't know, very very influential Quatro. 0:18:29.600 --> 0:18:31.760 But he's like a he's a pretty famous and very 0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:37.199 influential pro in dependence activist in Taiwan, dring the KMT's 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:40.800 occupation there. And this is something I don't like. Americans 0:18:41.800 --> 0:18:45.639 tend to not understand this very well. So okay, So 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.360 the the KMT is the Chinese nationalist party. They take 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:52.399 power in Taiwan after just invading it effectively. They when 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:54.199 when when they when they lose the civil war, the 0:18:54.240 --> 0:18:56.719 KMTS are cremating forces, and a bunch of their supporters 0:18:56.760 --> 0:18:59.199 like flee to Taiwan, and there are there are like 0:18:59.280 --> 0:19:03.360 three groups of people who the KMT like spend most 0:19:03.400 --> 0:19:06.800 of their time killing, and that is communist, feminists and 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:10.720 Taiwanese independence activists. They also hate Presbyterians for reasons that are. 0:19:10.760 --> 0:19:13.720 Hey, hey, we all hate Presbyterians, Am I right? 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.760 Okay to look look, I am not normally at Presbyterian 0:19:16.920 --> 0:19:20.000 like er. The Taiwanese Presbyterians like legitimately do good work 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:21.639 in the sense that they are like one of the 0:19:21.680 --> 0:19:25.320 groups that's like pretty important in bringing down the KMT 0:19:25.440 --> 0:19:29.320 one party dictatorship. But okay, so Taiwan has this like 0:19:30.080 --> 0:19:35.320 really appalling like One Party dictatorship. Nylon Jung is actually 0:19:35.440 --> 0:19:39.000 born I think I'm remembering is right. He's born like 0:19:39.280 --> 0:19:41.840 during the February twenty eighth incident, which is this thing 0:19:42.040 --> 0:19:45.640 in nineteen forty seven. Actually we're we are two days. 0:19:45.640 --> 0:19:47.040 I think when this goes out will be two days 0:19:47.080 --> 0:19:50.000 after the seventy seventh anniversary of it, where there's there's 0:19:50.000 --> 0:19:53.200 a giant uprising in Taiwan because like people in Taiwan 0:19:53.240 --> 0:19:56.080 fucking hate the KMT because they suck and they murder people, 0:19:56.760 --> 0:20:01.159 and there's this giant uprising and the KMT eventually like 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:05.439 their military forces get reorganized and they so the initial 0:20:05.520 --> 0:20:08.080 uprising takes most of the islands, and then the KMG 0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:10.080 just come back and kill everyone. They kill about twenty 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:12.680 thousand people in a week. It's one of the sort 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:14.760 of like I don't know, one of the kind of 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.560 like defining incidents and what becomes sort of Talentese national culture. 0:20:17.600 --> 0:20:20.320 It's just this like massacre and then you know, it's 0:20:20.320 --> 0:20:22.439 basically it's legal to talk about afterwards. This is this 0:20:22.480 --> 0:20:24.560 is the beginning of the sort of white terror in China, 0:20:24.560 --> 0:20:26.400 and they're gonna you know, and this is the start 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:29.560 of the KMT kidnapping and torturing like tens of thousands 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:31.480 of people. One of the things that happens in this 0:20:31.600 --> 0:20:34.200 this is actually so this is this was my family's 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:36.480 experience of it. Is that. Okay, so there's there's this 0:20:36.600 --> 0:20:39.720 up there's the uprising, right, but one of the things 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:42.959 that starts happening pretty quickly is these like retaliatory killings 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:46.439 against like against Chinese nationals, And that was stuff my 0:20:46.480 --> 0:20:49.480 family was like, yeah, we like couldn't go outside because 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:52.000