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Speaker 1: Al Zone Media. Oh boy, howdy, welcome back to it

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Speaker 1: could happen here? A podcast about it happening here, and

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Speaker 1: it is different most episodes. But today the thing that

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Speaker 1: is happening here is discussion about the growth of self

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Speaker 1: immolation as a form of protest from the twentieth to

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Speaker 1: the twenty first century. Obviously, we are recording this less

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Speaker 1: than a week after Aaron Bushnell, a twenty five year

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Speaker 1: old serviceman in the United States Air Force, let himself

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Speaker 1: on fire in front of the Israeli Intimacy in Washington,

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Speaker 1: d C. And you know, repeatedly stated free Palestine as

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Speaker 1: he was doing it. He said more than that, obviously,

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Speaker 1: he wrote, you know, I think very clearly about why

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Speaker 1: he did what he was doing. This is something that

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Speaker 1: you'll have heard a lot of debate about. There's a

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Speaker 1: certain kind of person, particularly in the media, who feels

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Speaker 1: obligated to say this is mental illness and we shouldn't

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Speaker 1: discuss it as anything else. I think that's wrong for

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Speaker 1: the same reasons, by the way that it's wrong to

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Speaker 1: dismiss you any sort of mass shooter or whatever as

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Speaker 1: mentally ill not that either of those are similar in

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Speaker 1: terms of the actions they're not. But that attempt to

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Speaker 1: dismiss it because it's something it makes you uncomfortable to

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Speaker 1: consider that somebody could do something so incomprehensible to you

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Speaker 1: for a logical reason. Now, when I say a logical reason,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't mean I'm arguing this is something more people

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Speaker 1: should do. It doesn't mean that I'm arguing that this

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Speaker 1: was the best thing that Bushnell could do. What I

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Speaker 1: am saying is that, from everything that is available, this

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Speaker 1: was a rational act. He understood what he hoped to

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Speaker 1: accomplish with this, and he took concerted steps to ensure

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Speaker 1: that he succeeded and that attention was drawn to it.

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Speaker 1: His reason for doing it was clear. He took actions

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Speaker 1: like to set up a will and whatnot. This seems

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Speaker 1: to have been a rational and principled action, and we

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Speaker 1: are I'm not really primarily going to be discussing what

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Speaker 1: Bushnell did because I don't really know that there's much

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Speaker 1: to say. You know, it's it's everyone here's stance that

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Speaker 1: what's being done to Gaza is a genocide. I don't

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Speaker 1: know that this will help. I certainly hope that somehow

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Speaker 1: it does, but we're simply not at a point where

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Speaker 1: we can say what the impact of this on the

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Speaker 1: overall you know, situation in Gaza is going to be.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I mean I guess like the thing we

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Speaker 2: can say off the bat is like whether or not

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Speaker 2: this matters is to a larger scent up to you

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Speaker 2: because like someone someone like I mean, this is the thing, right,

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Speaker 2: Like that.

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Speaker 1: Matters in the sense that it has an impact on

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Speaker 1: the Obviously, I think it matters because he was a

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Speaker 1: person well that too, right, Yeah, but like yeah, in

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Speaker 1: the in the in the in the sense of whether

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Speaker 1: its accomplishes political objectives, like that's up to.

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Speaker 2: Us figuring out how we're going to run a political

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Speaker 2: movement in such a way that the Shannisi gets stopped.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that is It's not something I have a

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Speaker 1: clear answer for you on right now, but I think

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Speaker 1: there I think so, I think the thing we're going

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Speaker 1: to try to do that I think can be helpful

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Speaker 1: in This is a tempt to provide some context on

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Speaker 1: what is the history of self immolation as a protest tactic,

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Speaker 1: How does it tend to work in the past and

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Speaker 1: in the present, and in what sort of situations has

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Speaker 1: it been more or less effective as an instrument of protest.

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Speaker 1: That's what we're going to try to cover today. Obviously,

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Speaker 1: this should not be seen as a totally comprehensive look

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Speaker 1: at the entire history.

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Speaker 2: Of goodcast as I'm about to come.

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Speaker 1: This is what we can get for you in about

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Speaker 1: a week, and I think I think it will help

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Speaker 1: and provide a broader sense of context as to how

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Speaker 1: this sort of thing has worked in other situations around

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Speaker 1: the world and throughout time. Self immolation goes back very

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Speaker 1: far as a protest tactic. There were Christians who are

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Speaker 1: being persecuted by the Roman government in Nicodemia in three

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Speaker 1: hundred AD who lit a fire in front of the

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Speaker 1: Emperor's palace and threw themselves into a bonfire as an

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Speaker 1: active protest. In Russia, I think in like the sixteen hundreds,

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Speaker 1: Orthodox I don't know there was an Orthodox sect. I

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Speaker 1: don't really know much about them, but they they locked

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Speaker 1: themselves pro in churches as a protest for some of

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Speaker 1: the czar's reforms and then lit those churches on fire,

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Speaker 1: so like died inside the churches that they were in.

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Speaker 1: So this is a kind of thing that goes back

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Speaker 1: quite a while. I'm sure there are other cases in

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Speaker 1: you know, ancient history that go well before that, but

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Speaker 1: it's it's not a new thing. However, when we talk

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Speaker 1: about kind of twentieth and twenty first century self immolation,

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Speaker 1: the first sort of really famous case of this and

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Speaker 1: the one that gets brought up every single time people

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Speaker 1: talk about self immolation as a protest tactic was one

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Speaker 1: that occurred during the Vietnam War, and it was the

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Speaker 1: self immolation of a Buddhist monk named tish Quang Duk.

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Speaker 1: I believe that's Thhi. I think that's how that's pronounced.

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Speaker 1: I lestn't do it before we started recording this, but

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff slips out of my head, so

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Speaker 1: I apologize if that is the case. He's an interesting guy.

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Speaker 1: I think pretty his early life is probably pretty common

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Speaker 1: for people who become Buddhists, who became Buddhist monks and

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Speaker 1: kind of Central Vietnam in this period of time. He

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Speaker 1: left home when he was like seven, he became a

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Speaker 1: novice at fifteen. By twenty he was a full monk.

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Speaker 1: And one of the things that's happening during this period

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Speaker 1: of time is the South Vietnamese government is this guy

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Speaker 1: he's called a president. The president he is a dictator.

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Speaker 1: I think everything but name No Din DM and he's

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Speaker 1: a terrible guy. He's a French educated Catholic. And if

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Speaker 1: you know anything about the French history and into China

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Speaker 1: right like that, that does not suggest somebody whose role

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Speaker 1: before Vietnam got its independence from France was particularly great.

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Speaker 1: His brother No Din knew what is the head of

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Speaker 1: the secret police, And they are despite the fact that

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Speaker 1: Vietnam South Vietnam is a Buddhist majority country, they're passing

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Speaker 1: a lot of policies that are like actively cracking down

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Speaker 1: on and reducing the right of a Buddhist people to

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Speaker 1: worship right. And you know, this is there's a lot

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Speaker 1: of reasons for this, but they kind of boiled down

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Speaker 1: to the fact that Dim was was horrible, was just

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Speaker 1: a fucking dog shit. Yeah, really really trash. Now I've

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Speaker 1: heard it said online when people bring up this self immolation,

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Speaker 1: you know, within kind of the context of of what's

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Speaker 1: happened recently, like this wasn't a you know, people are

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Speaker 1: wrong when they say this was an act of protest

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Speaker 1: the Vietnam War. It wasn't. And that is technically true

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Speaker 1: because like the thing that that duke was was protesting

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Speaker 1: was not US involvement in Vietnam, but he was protesting

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Speaker 1: the US backed government of South Vietnam, and that government

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Speaker 1: is very relevant to why there was a Vietnam War.

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Speaker 1: So I do kind of think it's it's not entirely

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Speaker 1: accurate to be like, well, this wasn't a Vietnam War protest, No, no,

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Speaker 1: it was.

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Speaker 2: It was. It was just about the fact that, like

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Speaker 2: the Catholic theocratic, drug dealing fascist government, it was like murdering.

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Speaker 2: It seems like you're splitting the hair there, bro.

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Speaker 1: I feel like the murdering Buddhist thing might have been

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Speaker 1: part of why there was so many people willing to

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Speaker 1: fight the South Vietnamese government.

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Speaker 2: Not a zero percent part of that equation.

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Speaker 1: Maybe, but yeah, So these guys, these Buddhists, I mean

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Speaker 1: Buddhist religious leaders in the country get increasingly angry about

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Speaker 1: what's happening. There are debates, I think for several years,

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Speaker 1: kind of within sort of the more highly ranking kind

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Speaker 1: of leaders in the faith as to like, what do

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Speaker 1: we do about this crackdown on our rights and like

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Speaker 1: should we They were talking for quite some time about

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Speaker 1: having a self immolation protest, right Like. It was the

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Speaker 1: kind of thing where there was a decent amount of

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Speaker 1: like discussion earlier, and Duck is actually the one who

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Speaker 1: I think suggested it initially to like other leaders in

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Speaker 1: the church. And yeah, while there was like for a

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Speaker 1: while they tried to push back against this, eventually the

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Speaker 1: level of prosecution just became so clear that you know,

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Speaker 1: they basically said, Okay, let's like you can do this.

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Speaker 1: And Duck is going to be the guy who is

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Speaker 1: going to like physically, you know, destroy his body in

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Speaker 1: order to carry out this active protest, as is always

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Speaker 1: going to be the case when we talk about these

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Speaker 1: famous self immolation cases, half of the story is the

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Speaker 1: guy who does or the individual who lights himself on fire,

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Speaker 1: and half of the story is the reporter who happens

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Speaker 1: to be there. And in this case it was a

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Speaker 1: guy named Malcolm Brown. He is, I believe he's an

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Speaker 1: American reporter. He's stationed in you know, Saigone, and he's

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Speaker 1: you know, doing what a lot of journalists were doing

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Speaker 1: at the time. And in the springtime of nineteen sixty three,

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Speaker 1: there start being like these kind of messages put out

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Speaker 1: by the Buddhist Church that are sort of he describes

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Speaker 1: it as hinting as some kind of spectacular protest. His

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Speaker 1: guess was that it would quote most likely be a

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Speaker 1: disembowlment of one of the monks or an immolation, and

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Speaker 1: either way, it was something we had to pay attention to.

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Speaker 1: And like a lot of journalists, he's got some sources

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Speaker 1: within the church. He gets a call one day and

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Speaker 1: they're like, you should show up at this pagoda at

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Speaker 1: this specific time. And here is how Malcolm describes what

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Speaker 1: he saw. By the time I got to the pagoda

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Speaker 1: where all this was being organized, it was already under way.

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Speaker 1: The monks and nuns were chanting a type of chant

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Speaker 1: that's very common at funerals and so forth. At a

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Speaker 1: signal from the leader, they all started out into the

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Speaker 1: street and headed toward the central part of Saigon on foot.

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Speaker 1: When we reached there, the monks quickly formed a circle

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Speaker 1: around a precise intersection of two main streets in Saigon.

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Speaker 1: A car drove up, two young monks got out of it.

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Speaker 1: An older monk, leaning a bit on one of the

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Speaker 1: younger ones also got out. He headed right for the

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Speaker 1: center of the intersection. The two young monks brought up

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Speaker 1: a plastic jerry can, which proved to be gasoline. As

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Speaker 1: soon as he seated himself, they poured the liquid all

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Speaker 1: over him. He got out a matchbook, lighted it and

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Speaker 1: dropped it in his lap and was immediately engulfed in flames.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, that's you know what happened that day. Malcolm

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Speaker 1: takes a picture of He takes a bunch of pictures.

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Speaker 1: You can see all of them. There's a Good Time

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Speaker 1: article Malcolm Brown, the Story behind the Burning Monk, that

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Speaker 1: has all of the pictures that he took, or at

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Speaker 1: least like a long list of them, and they are

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Speaker 1: worth seeing. They aren't. I shouldn't have to put a

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Speaker 1: trigger warning in here, right, these are photos of a

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Speaker 1: burning to death.

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Speaker 2: Like that shit sucks, say from me? Yeah, yeah, yeah, God,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't look good. It looks really bad. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Now obviously one of specifically one of the photos you've

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Speaker 1: probably seen it where like half of the monk's face

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Speaker 1: looks okay and the other half is just like wreathed

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Speaker 1: in fire. This goes like the sixties equivalent of viral right.

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Speaker 1: President Kennedy said of the photograph. No news picture in

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Speaker 1: history has generated so much emotion around the world is

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Speaker 1: that one. And at the time it may have been true,

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Speaker 1: and it is. It is number one. It does have

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Speaker 1: a role in the anti war movement because you know,

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Speaker 1: this is related to a protest against the government we

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Speaker 1: were backing. But this is also one of the more successful,

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Speaker 1: maybe the most like directly successful cases of self immolation

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Speaker 1: I've seen, because this does play a significant role in

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Speaker 1: the end of Deem's presidency and his life.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 1: So Duck leaves a note like a lot of these

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Speaker 1: people do. In his note, again is very clear minded.

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Speaker 1: He ends it by saying, before closing my eyes and

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Speaker 1: moving towards the vision of the Buddha, I respectfully plead

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Speaker 1: to President no d indem to take a mind of

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Speaker 1: compassion towards the people of the nation and admit implement

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Speaker 1: religious equality to maintain the strength of the homeland eternally. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when this kind of happens, as I quoted earlier, Kennedy

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Speaker 1: is like shocked and furious. He yells to his national

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Speaker 1: security advisor, who the fuck are these people? Like? How

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Speaker 1: did we not know this was going to happen? He's

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Speaker 1: he's very angry about all this. Buddhist is like, I

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Speaker 1: feel like, like that's the kind of big clue I

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Speaker 1: actually have trouble imagining like JFK, having a significant amount

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Speaker 1: of context, aest to like what buddhismiss.

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Speaker 2: God.

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Speaker 1: But maybe maybe I'm wrong. So I want to quote

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Speaker 1: from this really good medium article the suicide that changed

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Speaker 1: American policy in Vietnam by a poor Va Tadepali, And

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Speaker 1: this is for a series they write called near Pot,

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Speaker 1: which is an interactive classroom tool for students. And I

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Speaker 1: found this a very readable and concise description of kind

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Speaker 1: of what happened after Douk's self immolation quote. The publicity

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Speaker 1: of the incident increased pressure on DIM's government to deal

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Speaker 1: with the crisis, but he did not take the incident

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Speaker 1: seriously enough. His response to the death was an announcement

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Speaker 1: on the radio later that day that wildly missed the point.

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Speaker 1: The state of affairs was moving forward so smoothly, he said, bizarrely,

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Speaker 1: when this morning acting under extremist and truth concealing propaganda,

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Speaker 1: that's so doubt about the goodwill of the government. A

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Speaker 1: number of people got intoxicated and caused an undeserved death

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Speaker 1: that made me very sorry.

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Speaker 2: OK, I feel a lot of terrible statements. A it

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Speaker 2: is this guy.

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Speaker 1: We need to do the Bastards episode on him because

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Speaker 1: DM is like he's horrible. He causes a lot of

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Speaker 1: damage to a lot of people, but he's that's a

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Speaker 1: fucking scrub, right yeah, like fucking Stalin would never you know,

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Speaker 1: like the o Geese very sad you like Saddam Hussein

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Speaker 1: would have gotten caught.

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Speaker 2: Up in that shit. No, not my man. Listen, this

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Speaker 2: is like this is bush league shit even by like

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Speaker 2: fucking like East Asian dictators, like can.

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Speaker 1: You get che Shek, Like no way, oh no, Kai

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Speaker 1: Shek wouldn't have gotten caught up in this shit.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, ny Sheck. If someone had tried to do this

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Speaker 2: specifically in chink she Chanky Sheck would have shot the

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Speaker 2: guy himself.

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Speaker 1: Absolutely yeah, oh my god. So anyway, this scrub he makes,

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Speaker 1: he makes like a promise that they're going to do

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Speaker 1: reforms and stuff, and like while he's doing this, his family,

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Speaker 1: including his brother Knew, who's like the head of the

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Speaker 1: Saigon Secret Police, is basically is saying like like literally says,

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Speaker 1: if the Buddhists want to have another barbecue, I'll be

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Speaker 1: glad to supply the gasoline. Christ and his wife, who's

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Speaker 1: like a very merry Antoinette figure. Madam Knew who is.

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Speaker 1: It's his brother's wife, but she's basically the first lady

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Speaker 1: right of South Vietnam. She's like, let them burn, We'll

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Speaker 1: clap our hands. Oh god, So it's pretty it's pretty cool.

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Speaker 1: Like DM is actually kind of the smart one in

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Speaker 1: the family because he's trying to like tell his sister

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Speaker 1: in law and his brother in law like nah, bra Or,

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Speaker 1: and his brother and his sister in law, like, you

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Speaker 1: guys don't understand. We have to be a little bit

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Speaker 1: careful here. This could really go badly.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. It really seems like like they haven't figured out

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Speaker 2: the playbook for dealing with this yet. No, because like

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Speaker 2: the successive governments, like everyone has like the same line

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Speaker 2: that they say when it happens, and these people, it

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Speaker 2: looks like they're really kind of scrambling here. They didn't

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Speaker 2: have any they'd never even considered that something like this

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Speaker 2: could happen. There would be reactions to their policies like this.

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Speaker 2: There are a bunch of protests by monks and nuns

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Speaker 2: of the police arrest a bunch of people. This continues

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Speaker 2: to draw outrage and make the system a situation worse

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Speaker 2: new the secret police guy has his goons like ransack

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Speaker 2: and destroy a bunch of like Buddhist basically a lot

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Speaker 2: of people, like fourteen hundred people are like rounded up

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Speaker 2: and arrested. DM accuses the monks of being part of

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Speaker 2: the Viet Cong, which is again like sure, such a yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: So one of the things that is important to understand

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Speaker 1: here is that this is at a very different part

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Speaker 1: stage of the Vietnam War. The US has troops in

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Speaker 1: the country, but not a lot, like very few compared

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Speaker 1: to how many are going to be there, And at

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Speaker 1: this stage, DM actually isn't happy that we have even

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Speaker 1: though it's got to become very clear that like the

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Speaker 1: US troops the only thing allowing this regime to stay

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Speaker 1: propped up. He is like, I don't want them here.

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Speaker 1: They don't even have passports, right, Like he's he's like

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Speaker 1: weirdly anti the like. And part of it is because

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Speaker 1: the US is about to act here finally to take

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Speaker 1: support away from his regime. So three days after his buddy,

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Speaker 1: his brother in law or his brother Knu has a

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Speaker 1: bunch of raids on these Buddhist temples, there's a cable

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Speaker 1: sent from DC to the US ambassador in Southern Vietnam

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Speaker 1: that's like, we're not backing this guy anymore. And this

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Speaker 1: ends with a bunch of South Vietnamese generals who had

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Speaker 1: already been planning a coup being given the go ahead

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Speaker 1: from the US basically saying like, we're not our guys

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Speaker 1: are not going to take any actions to stop you

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Speaker 1: from overthrowing this guy. And on November two, Dim and

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Speaker 1: his brother are kidnapped while trying to escape and they

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Speaker 1: are killed not long after. So this is, you know,

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Speaker 1: pretty successful self emolation. You have to say, right, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: works seems like it works about as well as you

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Speaker 1: could have hoped for that, right, like the at least,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure aus as well as that monk hoped, because

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Speaker 1: you know, Dim is not just out of power, but

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Speaker 1: is fucking killed as a result of this.

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Speaker 2: So ohough, the problem is the subsequent people he has

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Speaker 2: put in charge of Yeah, also suck.

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Speaker 1: But that's that's also part of a pattern, unfortunately, and

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Speaker 1: there's like a weirdly there's like a history of self

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Speaker 1: emolation leading to regime change. We're gonna talk about Tunia

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Speaker 1: at the end of the episode, and that does tend

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Speaker 1: to be the story of like, yeah, we got rid

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Speaker 1: of the dictator and then a guy who sucked that's

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Speaker 1: as much came into power.

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Speaker 2: Hey, well, the the tai one one we're gonna talk

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Speaker 2: about in a second actually gets pretty well. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, and before we go into that, because we're

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Speaker 1: gonna let you take over from hearing meat or at

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Speaker 1: least for the next couple of parts of this. But

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Speaker 1: first let's let our advertisers take over and we're back.

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Speaker 1: All right, miya, you are on deck. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So, I think I think people are kind of broadly

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Speaker 2: aware kind of if you know anything more self immolations,

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Speaker 2: about the self emilations in Vietnam, and then also the

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Speaker 2: sort of the ones in the US, like as as

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Speaker 2: anti Vietnam War protests, the ones that I don't think

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Speaker 2: most people here know and that I only know about,

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Speaker 2: like because like my mom was born in Taiwan, Right,

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Speaker 2: is the Taiwanese self immolationis. Yeah. So this guy's name

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Speaker 2: is Jian Yong Rong. He is he's also noticed the

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Speaker 2: thing most people call him is Nylon Jung, for reasons

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Speaker 2: that I guess will become clear when he lights himself

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Speaker 2: on fire. So Nylon Jung is a very very influential

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Speaker 2: Uh well, okay, I don't know, very very influential Quatro.

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Speaker 2: But he's like a he's a pretty famous and very

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Speaker 2: influential pro in dependence activist in Taiwan, dring the KMT's

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Speaker 2: occupation there. And this is something I don't like. Americans

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Speaker 2: tend to not understand this very well. So okay, So

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Speaker 2: the the KMT is the Chinese nationalist party. They take

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Speaker 2: power in Taiwan after just invading it effectively. They when

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Speaker 2: when when they when they lose the civil war, the

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Speaker 2: KMTS are cremating forces, and a bunch of their supporters

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Speaker 2: like flee to Taiwan, and there are there are like

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Speaker 2: three groups of people who the KMT like spend most

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Speaker 2: of their time killing, and that is communist, feminists and

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Speaker 2: Taiwanese independence activists. They also hate Presbyterians for reasons that are.

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Speaker 1: Hey, hey, we all hate Presbyterians, Am I right?

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Speaker 2: Okay to look look, I am not normally at Presbyterian

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Speaker 2: like er. The Taiwanese Presbyterians like legitimately do good work

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Speaker 2: in the sense that they are like one of the

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Speaker 2: groups that's like pretty important in bringing down the KMT

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Speaker 2: one party dictatorship. But okay, so Taiwan has this like

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Speaker 2: really appalling like One Party dictatorship. Nylon Jung is actually

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Speaker 2: born I think I'm remembering is right. He's born like

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Speaker 2: during the February twenty eighth incident, which is this thing

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Speaker 2: in nineteen forty seven. Actually we're we are two days.

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Speaker 2: I think when this goes out will be two days

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Speaker 2: after the seventy seventh anniversary of it, where there's there's

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Speaker 2: a giant uprising in Taiwan because like people in Taiwan

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Speaker 2: fucking hate the KMT because they suck and they murder people,

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Speaker 2: and there's this giant uprising and the KMT eventually like

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Speaker 2: their military forces get reorganized and they so the initial

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Speaker 2: uprising takes most of the islands, and then the KMG

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Speaker 2: just come back and kill everyone. They kill about twenty

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Speaker 2: thousand people in a week. It's one of the sort

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Speaker 2: of like I don't know, one of the kind of

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Speaker 2: like defining incidents and what becomes sort of Talentese national culture.

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Speaker 2: It's just this like massacre and then you know, it's

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Speaker 2: basically it's legal to talk about afterwards. This is this

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Speaker 2: is the beginning of the sort of white terror in China,

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Speaker 2: and they're gonna you know, and this is the start

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Speaker 2: of the KMT kidnapping and torturing like tens of thousands

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Speaker 2: of people. One of the things that happens in this

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Speaker 2: this is actually so this is this was my family's

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Speaker 2: experience of it. Is that. Okay, so there's there's this

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Speaker 2: up there's the uprising, right, but one of the things

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Speaker 2: that starts happening pretty quickly is these like retaliatory killings

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Speaker 2: against like against Chinese nationals, And that was stuff my

400
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Speaker 2: family was like, yeah, we like couldn't go outside because

401
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Speaker 2: if you leave your house, like you're gonna get killed

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Speaker 2: by mobs and that stuff. That stuff like sucked.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, that that does sound like it sucked.

404
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Speaker 2: No, it's not good because it's the thing because it's

405
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Speaker 2: weird because it's like that uprising like broadly good, but

406
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Speaker 2: it turns into like parts of it turn into race

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Speaker 2: riots or like why it's weird, Like I don't know,

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Speaker 2: it turns into these like like anti Chinese national like

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Speaker 2: riots and that stuff. You know. So Jong is from

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Speaker 2: a Chinese like like just from like a sort of

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Speaker 2: like Chinese national family that like fled to Taiwan after

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Speaker 2: the war, and his family is protected by other Taiwanese

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Speaker 2: like like uprising people who are like no, like we're

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Speaker 2: not going to fucking just kill these random Chinese people,

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Speaker 2: Like what are you guys talking about? And that's this

416
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Speaker 2: really formative thing for him where this is one of

417
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Speaker 2: the things that caused him to grow up to become

418
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Speaker 2: like the kind of Chinese like Taiwanese independence activist that

419
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Speaker 2: he is, where he's one of these people who is

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Speaker 2: really big on Taiwan as like like liberating Taiwan as

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Speaker 2: a nation, but having it be like a nation of

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Speaker 2: ideals and not a nation of blood because his you know,

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Speaker 2: because he sees how badly this kind of like ulternational

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Speaker 2: bloodline like shit can go. And so he becomes like

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Speaker 2: a pretty prominent independence activist. He runs one of the

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Speaker 2: anti party newspapers, like anti Canteen newspapers, and he's mostly

427
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Speaker 2: doing a lot of this stuff in the eighties where

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Speaker 2: so basically like you have two consecutive like like the

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Speaker 2: Shanki check and then you have like more guys from

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Speaker 2: that family. By the eighties, you're like democratization is kind

431
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Speaker 2: of like slowly moving forward because the time when he's

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Speaker 2: ruling class, he's losing American backing, they're losing backing overseas.

433
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 2: But you know, even even by sort of nineteen eighty nine,

434
00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:43,120
Speaker 2: which is in the period in which people are talking

435
00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,240
Speaker 2: about like well democratization's happening, like it's gonna go forward,

436
00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,200
Speaker 2: the country still has likes they haven't had like real

437
00:22:51,280 --> 00:22:54,359
Speaker 2: national elections, and they still have these really really intense

438
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:59,040
Speaker 2: what are called anti sedition laws and so one of

439
00:22:59,040 --> 00:23:02,200
Speaker 2: the things that the pro independence activist and this is

440
00:23:02,240 --> 00:23:06,119
Speaker 2: the period in which like Taiwan's like modern ruling party,

441
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,359
Speaker 2: the Democratic Progressive Party like comes into existence or like

442
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,439
Speaker 2: they're coming to existence as the anti KMT party. And

443
00:23:13,680 --> 00:23:15,920
Speaker 2: this is the sort of milieu kind of in which

444
00:23:16,520 --> 00:23:19,639
Speaker 2: Dylon Jung is sort of mobilizing, right, But he's also

445
00:23:21,080 --> 00:23:25,080
Speaker 2: I don't know, he's like he's the kind of guy

446
00:23:25,119 --> 00:23:27,040
Speaker 2: that doesn't exist anymore, which is like he's kind of

447
00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:34,439
Speaker 2: like a like like liberal progressive national liberation supporter. So

448
00:23:34,480 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 2: I actually I found a really interesting thing translated by

449
00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:39,960
Speaker 2: jenhan Chan on this guy I kind of am aware

450
00:23:39,960 --> 00:23:41,840
Speaker 2: of from Twitter, who translated this thing that he read

451
00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:45,280
Speaker 2: about Palestine, where he is a pro Palestine guy. But

452
00:23:45,480 --> 00:23:49,880
Speaker 2: it's interesting because he sees Palestine as like another nation

453
00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: that's been like subjugated in like a similar way to

454
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,760
Speaker 2: Taiwan has and you know, and he's like an anti

455
00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:01,000
Speaker 2: armed struggle guy, but he's also very sort of he's

456
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:05,560
Speaker 2: very committed to Taiwanese independence as a national liberation movement

457
00:24:05,600 --> 00:24:07,960
Speaker 2: and specifically, like the thing that you're liberating it from

458
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:16,399
Speaker 2: is the KMT, and so, you know, he he gets

459
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:19,399
Speaker 2: in the trouble constantly with like the KMT government. They

460
00:24:19,480 --> 00:24:22,720
Speaker 2: arrest in a bunch of times, and eventually, in nineteen

461
00:24:22,720 --> 00:24:26,160
Speaker 2: eighty nine, he gets charged with these by these anti

462
00:24:26,160 --> 00:24:29,760
Speaker 2: sisition laws. He gets charged with insurrection for like spreading

463
00:24:29,920 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: drafts of a potential new Taiwanese constitution, and so he

464
00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 2: barricades himself in his office, refuses to show up to code.

465
00:24:37,080 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: He gives this giant speech about how like you'll never

466
00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:44,800
Speaker 2: take me alive, and the police kind of take him serious.

467
00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,840
Speaker 2: He's barricaded himself in like his newspaper offices, and he's

468
00:24:47,880 --> 00:24:50,560
Speaker 2: there for like two months, and at the end of

469
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:53,720
Speaker 2: month two, a cop who is the current mayor of

470
00:24:53,800 --> 00:24:57,359
Speaker 2: New Taipei City tries to burst down his door.

471
00:24:59,240 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 1: That doesn't save my a job that you should be

472
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:01,480
Speaker 1: able to have.

473
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,000
Speaker 2: No, No, this is one of these things where it's like, okay,

474
00:25:05,000 --> 00:25:07,640
Speaker 2: so like the KMT, this is one of these things

475
00:25:07,680 --> 00:25:09,919
Speaker 2: about sort of Tony's politics. That's weird that the KMT

476
00:25:10,160 --> 00:25:13,040
Speaker 2: is the modern sort of pro China promunification faction. Right,

477
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: those guys suck like like they're they're not they're not

478
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:18,879
Speaker 2: the same sort of like just desk squad party they

479
00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:20,840
Speaker 2: were in the sort of late in like the twentieth century.

480
00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:24,199
Speaker 2: But they're also like yeah, no, it's literally they're mayor.

481
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:29,040
Speaker 2: They're mayor of PIPEI, which is okay, I'm not going

482
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 2: to go into what the difference between Uchaipe and I

483
00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,000
Speaker 2: pay is here. That's that's the whole thing.

484
00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:35,040
Speaker 1: I'm guessing. It's like the difference between you know, New

485
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 1: York and Old York.

486
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:39,359
Speaker 2: Right, it's it's it's closer to the difference between New

487
00:25:39,400 --> 00:25:40,280
Speaker 2: York City and New York.

488
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,720
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, but that makes sense. Yeah that works.

489
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,840
Speaker 2: Like this guy, this guy who again like was elected

490
00:25:47,880 --> 00:25:50,440
Speaker 2: like two years ago, tries to kick down his door

491
00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,080
Speaker 2: and Nylon jungl likes himself on fire. And this has

492
00:25:56,400 --> 00:26:00,879
Speaker 2: a enormous impact on the sort of subsequent course of

493
00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 2: Tiwan these politics, because this is a this is a like,

494
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: this is a pr disaster for the like for for

495
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 2: the ruling for like for for the current government, which

496
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:12,760
Speaker 2: had been trying to sort of like do its like ah,

497
00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: we're doing moderate reforms, blah blah blah, we're doing you

498
00:26:15,560 --> 00:26:18,360
Speaker 2: have local elections. Now you're we're doing democratization. And suddenly,

499
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,399
Speaker 2: like their cops break down this guy's door and he

500
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:28,240
Speaker 2: lights himself on fire, and you know that the cop

501
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,120
Speaker 2: later says like, oh, yeah, we break down the door

502
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:32,960
Speaker 2: because we were trying to save his life. It's like, no,

503
00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,439
Speaker 2: you didn't. What the fuck are you talking about?

504
00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,040
Speaker 1: Like, I love things that have never happened, That's my

505
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 1: favorite kind of thing.

506
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:43,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, so there this is one of

507
00:26:43,200 --> 00:26:44,960
Speaker 2: these things that and this is actually think that that's

508
00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:47,879
Speaker 2: become that's a very very common thing at protests like now,

509
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,440
Speaker 2: So no Alan Jung has he has this massive funeral,

510
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: I mean, this is an absolutely enormous funeral march and

511
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:58,040
Speaker 2: the police attack it. And when the police attack it,

512
00:26:58,160 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: another pro independence active also lights himself on fire like

513
00:27:02,560 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: in front of the cops when they refuse to do it.

514
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:07,160
Speaker 2: And this that second guy is like a lot less

515
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:11,720
Speaker 2: remembered than Nlan Jung but this becomes a massive sort

516
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: of rallying cry around, like you know, for the pro

517
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 2: dependence people, but also for the sort of broader fight

518
00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:22,119
Speaker 2: for like an actual like actual free democratic elections. Like

519
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,359
Speaker 2: the big thing these people were protesting like specifically was

520
00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 2: free speech because the thing about the sedition laws is

521
00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,200
Speaker 2: if you you know, again, if you start passing around

522
00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:32,080
Speaker 2: copies of the constitution, they try to arrest you and

523
00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: throw your in prison.

524
00:27:33,200 --> 00:27:37,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean nothing says sedition like the constitution of

525
00:27:37,160 --> 00:27:37,879
Speaker 1: the country you're in.

526
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and like you're changing it, I guess is sedition.

527
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 2: It's like the KMD really suck, like cannot emphasize that

528
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 2: it off. But the sort of the results of this

529
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,479
Speaker 2: is that, you know, okay, Like, so this is one

530
00:27:52,480 --> 00:27:55,320
Speaker 2: of these actions that's kind of complicated because the the

531
00:27:55,680 --> 00:28:00,560
Speaker 2: arc of Taiwanese politics was bending towards Democrats in some

532
00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 2: kind of like actual electoral system, and it probably would

533
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:09,639
Speaker 2: have happened even without this, but this supercharges the whole process.

534
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: Within about two years, two or three years, all the

535
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:15,760
Speaker 2: position laws are appealed, and within well, it takes a

536
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 2: while before you get I think I think it's like

537
00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: two thousand I think it's like really when you can

538
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: what you can call like the first really free like

539
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:25,360
Speaker 2: Taiwanese national election, when when there's actually like a transition

540
00:28:25,440 --> 00:28:31,560
Speaker 2: of power between the KMT and the Democratic Party. Sure,

541
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 2: but yeah, it was to a large extent very successful.

542
00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:37,480
Speaker 1: Like it.

543
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 2: I don't know, Okay, so it accomplished the goal of

544
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,440
Speaker 2: knocking off the KMT sort of one party state. It

545
00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 2: knocked off the edition laws. The kind of Taiwanese independence

546
00:28:50,440 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: like that's very very sort of national liberation driven is

547
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 2: kind of not the same one that exists in Taiwan now.

548
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 2: It's a bit different. But on the other hand, like, yeah,

549
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:05,120
Speaker 2: they they did it. It was it was really it

550
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 2: was pretty effective, and yeah, I don't know, like this

551
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:12,880
Speaker 2: is this is I of the ones that I've seen.

552
00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: I think this was the most clear he won. Melan

553
00:29:16,600 --> 00:29:18,959
Speaker 2: Jung's like is sort of to this day a pro

554
00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:23,880
Speaker 2: dependence hero. There's there's a there's a statue of him.

555
00:29:24,800 --> 00:29:27,080
Speaker 2: Uh so they they I think that I think I'm

556
00:29:27,080 --> 00:29:29,440
Speaker 2: pretty sure they turned the office re lit himself on

557
00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:33,040
Speaker 2: fire like into a into a like into a museum,

558
00:29:33,360 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: and there's there's a there's a very famous sort of

559
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:37,920
Speaker 2: like pictures of these the statue of his burned corpse,

560
00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 2: that's just horrowing. It's one of the symbols of the

561
00:29:41,360 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 2: sort of Taiwanese democratic movements, and it's also it's also

562
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: a sort of it matters a lot. This is also

563
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: happening in the same year as Tianneman, Like, yeah, so

564
00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:57,280
Speaker 2: there's that kind of like it's in the air, right yeah. Yeah,

565
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,160
Speaker 2: and his his widow goes on to be DPP politician

566
00:30:02,000 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 2: and it's one of it's one of the things that

567
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: it's it's like his memories invoked dream like. So in

568
00:30:06,360 --> 00:30:10,200
Speaker 2: twenty fourteen, Taiwan had their own version of occupy that's

569
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 2: like shittier called the Sunflower Movement. I'm sorry, this is

570
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 2: this is where we're getting into the MIA has a

571
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: bunch of political beefs with people in Taiwan where I

572
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: think they're all libs, but it's yeah, like they have

573
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 2: their own sort of they have like this this large

574
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 2: series of the street protests and this like he's one

575
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,920
Speaker 2: of the figures that's you know, one of like brought

576
00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:28,400
Speaker 2: up in as.

577
00:30:28,280 --> 00:30:31,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's gonna be the same thing with uh, the

578
00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: guy in Tunisia. We're about to talk about the two

579
00:30:32,880 --> 00:30:35,240
Speaker 1: where where they become even to people that they would

580
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: not you know, certainly we're not like expressing similar views,

581
00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:42,960
Speaker 1: they still become this like icon that gets sided. Yeah.

582
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think I think the last thing too

583
00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:49,040
Speaker 2: is he's the fact that the cop who kicked at it,

584
00:30:49,080 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 2: who kicked his door down, is now the fucking mayor

585
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:57,800
Speaker 2: of New type A city is just like, oh, appalling stuff. Yeah,

586
00:30:57,840 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: the KMG absolutely suck. And those are the people who

587
00:31:01,440 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 2: want Taiwan to be unified with China. So if that

588
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,280
Speaker 2: understands who you're making your bed with, if that's the

589
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:13,120
Speaker 2: kind of politics that you you want to be engaged in, Yeah,

590
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:15,160
Speaker 2: So that's that's that's that's that's the time we want

591
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:20,320
Speaker 2: self emulations. I guess kind of I don't know, not

592
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,600
Speaker 2: enough bad things happen to the cops who trigger this

593
00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:27,440
Speaker 2: kind of stuff, which they also don't although I guess

594
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 2: I guess the cops is Sofia nom didn't do great.

595
00:31:30,200 --> 00:31:33,720
Speaker 1: No no, no, I mean, ultimately right, that doesn't immediately

596
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 1: really cause them any problems. One of secret Police a bit.

597
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: Speaking of secret police, this podcast is sponsored entirely by

598
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:57,200
Speaker 1: the Secret Police, so you know, check that out. And

599
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,400
Speaker 1: we're back. Yeah, we just got beaten by phone books

600
00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 1: because they don't leave any bruises by our sponsors at

601
00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 1: the Secret Police, So you know, the secret police like

602
00:32:08,360 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 1: the police, but Secret Mia. Did you have another one

603
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 1: you wanted to get into before we talk about Tunisia.

604
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:16,800
Speaker 2: Do we want to do Tibet first or do we

605
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:18,440
Speaker 2: want to do Tuenisia first?

606
00:32:18,520 --> 00:32:19,400
Speaker 1: Why don't we do Tibet?

607
00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think other than Tunisia, I think the

608
00:32:23,760 --> 00:32:30,080
Speaker 2: most famous wave of self immolations was the ones in

609
00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,040
Speaker 2: Tibet that started in about two thousand and nine. There

610
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,400
Speaker 2: is actually a guy into better light stelf On fire

611
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 2: in the late nineties, but that doesn't have the same

612
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 2: kind of sort of doesn't have the same effect as

613
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:47,480
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine ones. So one of the things

614
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,560
Speaker 2: that's been periodically happening, I guess over the sort of

615
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:58,680
Speaker 2: course of the history of sort of occupied Tibet is

616
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 2: the Dalai Lama. So the Dalai Lama, like Flees, there's

617
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: this whole giant drama nineteen fifty nine. So so okay,

618
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,040
Speaker 2: I guess, I guess I should go back to the beginning.

619
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:14,120
Speaker 2: So Tibet is just like straight up invaded by China.

620
00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:17,480
Speaker 2: When when the after the Communists win the civil war,

621
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: this causes an enormous amount of shit to happen. One

622
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:23,840
Speaker 2: of the things that the Communist Party is trying to

623
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 2: do is they are trying to gain control of the

624
00:33:27,520 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 2: Tibetan religious system so that they can eliminate the religious

625
00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 2: system like they can they can eliminate like the Buddhist

626
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: clergy is effectively, like they can eliminate Buddhist monks. They

627
00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:39,320
Speaker 2: can eliminate like the religious institutions as a source of

628
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:42,760
Speaker 2: resistance to them. They're kind of foiled in this when

629
00:33:42,760 --> 00:33:45,240
Speaker 2: the Dalai Lama makes this break and escapes to India.

630
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 2: And this is one of the things that triggers eventually

631
00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:52,520
Speaker 2: in the in the sixties China's war with India. But

632
00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:54,240
Speaker 2: one of the things that I've been happening for a

633
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 2: while was these kind of negotiations between the Dalai Lama

634
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,240
Speaker 2: and the Chinese government to try to like find a

635
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 2: kind of resolution to like how bad things were in

636
00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,239
Speaker 2: Ti Bet. And in two thousand and nine, Di Lama goes, yeah,

637
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 2: none of this is fucking working, Like it's not nothing,

638
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: Like we're not we're not getting anything. The Chinese government

639
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,759
Speaker 2: is not offering us any like any actual deal that

640
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:25,240
Speaker 2: we can live with, and pretty quickly this so, okay,

641
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:27,400
Speaker 2: you get this giant wave of self in relations. The

642
00:34:27,840 --> 00:34:30,840
Speaker 2: first guy, this guy named Tape, he is a monk.

643
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:33,319
Speaker 2: He lights himself on fire in two thousand and nine.

644
00:34:33,480 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 2: There's conflicting reports. Okay. So one of the one of

645
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 2: the problems with talking about this is that in this period,

646
00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:44,480
Speaker 2: the Internet is not as widespread as it is today,

647
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:47,520
Speaker 2: and there is a there is a giant like there

648
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 2: was a Chinese like media cord and effectively on on

649
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 2: Tibet in a very similar way to like West Papua

650
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:54,600
Speaker 2: with it like they won't let journalists in. It is

651
00:34:54,680 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: very hard to get information out. So the thing that

652
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 2: I'm about to say is something that is reported law

653
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 2: on the time by people who try who are trying

654
00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 2: to smoke all messages out. And the thing they report

655
00:35:04,600 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 2: is that as this guy is self immolating, the Chinese

656
00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:09,360
Speaker 2: police shoot him like multiple times.

657
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,359
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, as we've as we've seen recently, that

658
00:35:13,520 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: is how cops tend to look at somebody like, yeah,

659
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 1: someone has let themselves on fire. Clearly, what this situation

660
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 1: needs is a gun.

661
00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:24,479
Speaker 2: And you know, okay, so like the Chinese police, they

662
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: I don't I don't have any evidence of them shooting

663
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:31,000
Speaker 2: people after that. They absolutely One of the things that

664
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:33,160
Speaker 2: so what happens after this is this wave of self

665
00:35:33,160 --> 00:35:35,520
Speaker 2: immolations is protests across the bed. The thing that they

666
00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,320
Speaker 2: absolutely do a lot is start beating the person who's

667
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:41,200
Speaker 2: on fire with a stick, like using like riot sticks

668
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 2: sometimes they have these, They have riot sticks with like

669
00:35:43,600 --> 00:35:46,759
Speaker 2: spikes on them, and they are absolutely beating people to

670
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: death while they are burning to death. The Chinese police

671
00:35:49,600 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: are like as psychotical, maybe not quite as like absolutely

672
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 2: murderous as the American police, but they are like they

673
00:35:57,080 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 2: are beating a burning man to death. Right, that is.

674
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:05,560
Speaker 1: Oh god, I will say that that is definitely I

675
00:36:05,600 --> 00:36:07,799
Speaker 1: haven't that certainly. I can't think of anything I've ever

676
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 1: seen US police do that is more violent than beat

677
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 1: a man to death while he's on fire.

678
00:36:12,640 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not there. That makes the cut. It's really bad.

679
00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: And this is the kind of thing that you know,

680
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:21,920
Speaker 2: I mean, this is the kind of thing that that

681
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:24,319
Speaker 2: sets off these self immlations in the first place, which

682
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,000
Speaker 2: is that Tibet has you know, like has has a

683
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 2: colonial occupation, right, it has you know, the Chinese government

684
00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 2: has been attempting to suppress to Bet and Buddhism. There's

685
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 2: been a massive, way, like systemic, massive ecological instruction of

686
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,480
Speaker 2: the Tibetan plateau so that the Chinese government can like

687
00:36:41,600 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: mine gold and shit and in a way that's very

688
00:36:44,960 --> 00:36:47,200
Speaker 2: similar to sort of like the ecological demonstation you get

689
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: in places like the Amazon there are you know, they

690
00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:52,879
Speaker 2: are intense police crack downs all the time. There's another

691
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:54,799
Speaker 2: very famous incident that's like kind of one of the

692
00:36:54,840 --> 00:36:58,439
Speaker 2: things that leads to this, where in nineteen eighty nine,

693
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,200
Speaker 2: there's there's a bunch of protests in Tibet and the

694
00:37:00,239 --> 00:37:02,960
Speaker 2: cops just start shooting them. They kill a bunch of people,

695
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: and so, you know, and people had been like Upu

696
00:37:07,680 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 2: Twi two thousand and nine, people that kind of had

697
00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,760
Speaker 2: this promise that things were going to get better because

698
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,160
Speaker 2: you know, you have these negotiations between the Chinese government

699
00:37:15,200 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 2: and the Dalai Lama, and then the Dollai Lama turns

700
00:37:19,600 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 2: around and goes, yeah, I no, they're not giving us anything.

701
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 2: Like they're giving us nothing. The Chinese states policy on

702
00:37:23,480 --> 00:37:27,960
Speaker 2: Tibet is that effectively we're going to like we're we're going,

703
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: we're going, we're going to like we're going to try

704
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:33,520
Speaker 2: to make these people Han effectively. One of the things

705
00:37:33,719 --> 00:37:35,360
Speaker 2: they spend they do this in Changhan too, is they

706
00:37:35,360 --> 00:37:37,640
Speaker 2: spend a lot of there's a lot of resources invested

707
00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:40,239
Speaker 2: in getting like Han settlers from other parts of China

708
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,040
Speaker 2: to booth to bet, you know, and you know, as

709
00:37:43,360 --> 00:37:45,319
Speaker 2: as issue also in change on like the like the

710
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:48,480
Speaker 2: cadre jobs are basically all like government cadre jobs are

711
00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 2: basically all Hawn people, and so you know, you start

712
00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:55,719
Speaker 2: getting you start getting attempts at sell disobedience. There are

713
00:37:55,760 --> 00:37:58,200
Speaker 2: these giant protests in two thousand and eight, like attempting

714
00:37:58,280 --> 00:38:00,279
Speaker 2: to make us sort of like a giant have a

715
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 2: giant thing happened right before the Olympics in order to

716
00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:05,759
Speaker 2: get international support. And those turn into riots and those

717
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:10,680
Speaker 2: are brutally suppressed. And once that happens, people are really

718
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: kind of they're running out of options for civil disobedience

719
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 2: because you know, this is one of these things about

720
00:38:19,320 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 2: this kind of Buddhism is that it's it's very much

721
00:38:23,239 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 2: a like the resistance tradition is nonviolence, right, like these

722
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,560
Speaker 2: people sometimes like very very rarely you get riots but

723
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 2: they're not like they're not going to try or arm struggle,

724
00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 2: and so what they have is non violence civil disobedience.

725
00:38:38,080 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 2: But the problem is that if you try to do

726
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,040
Speaker 2: non violence w disobedience in China, what happens to you

727
00:38:42,120 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: is just the cops show up at arrest you all,

728
00:38:44,080 --> 00:38:45,879
Speaker 2: and then they rest your families. And this is something

729
00:38:45,880 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 2: that happens to the people who self emilate, is that

730
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:51,359
Speaker 2: there are like one hundred and sixty of them from

731
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:55,200
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine until now. And when someone lights

732
00:38:55,200 --> 00:38:57,640
Speaker 2: themself on fire, what the Chinese government does is, well,

733
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:00,120
Speaker 2: a they beat the person to death while they're on fire.

734
00:39:00,680 --> 00:39:04,840
Speaker 2: By they start arresting the people's family, they start arresting

735
00:39:04,880 --> 00:39:07,520
Speaker 2: their friends, they start arresting people in the monasteries that

736
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:11,240
Speaker 2: they're at. They start doing these purges to like stop

737
00:39:11,719 --> 00:39:14,160
Speaker 2: like to remove the sort of Buddhist monks that they

738
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 2: think are going to be problems. And this this fuels

739
00:39:18,000 --> 00:39:21,040
Speaker 2: this kind of cyclical wave of this because on the

740
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:23,759
Speaker 2: one hand, you know, there's this incredible repression going on.

741
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,000
Speaker 2: On the other hand, it's not possible to like wage

742
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:30,480
Speaker 2: really like wage other kinds of mass so it dis

743
00:39:30,520 --> 00:39:33,960
Speaker 2: obedience campaigns and The thing about lighting yourself on fire

744
00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,880
Speaker 2: is that the government can't stop it, right, Like in

745
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,759
Speaker 2: theory you could maybe train police to stop people from

746
00:39:40,760 --> 00:39:42,840
Speaker 2: blighting people on fire. But the thing is, the actual

747
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: thing that happens when you light when someone lights themself

748
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:48,680
Speaker 2: on fire, is the cop goes and beats them. And

749
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:54,960
Speaker 2: so it becomes this sort of it becomes the sort

750
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:58,479
Speaker 2: of like the cycle of self in relations. And also,

751
00:39:58,520 --> 00:40:00,760
Speaker 2: I mean the other thing that's worth mentioning too is people.

752
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: There are a few other cases of Tibetan Buddhists, like

753
00:40:06,280 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 2: outside of outside of to bet you do it, there's

754
00:40:09,480 --> 00:40:11,520
Speaker 2: a few people in India and you let themselves on fire.

755
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: And I don't know, I think the Tibetan example is

756
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: really bleak because it doesn't work. Like they lose. And

757
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 2: this is one of these situations where I don't know,

758
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,239
Speaker 2: like I legitimately don't know how they could have won,

759
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:33,399
Speaker 2: because they were dealing with a enormous, a very very

760
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:37,600
Speaker 2: powerful state apparatus that was very invested in using all

761
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:43,280
Speaker 2: of its state capacity to oppress them, and it it fails,

762
00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,200
Speaker 2: and it it like the thing that it mostly accomplishes

763
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:55,200
Speaker 2: is a bunch of is like just a generation of well,

764
00:40:55,239 --> 00:40:57,280
Speaker 2: I mean some like the youngest kid who self Inlins

765
00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 2: is fifteen, right, and it mostly ACCOMPLI whish is a

766
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 2: bunch of these kids like themselves on fire and die

767
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:09,120
Speaker 2: and everything is worse now than it was in two

768
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,879
Speaker 2: thousand and nine. Yep, I think, you know. So they're

769
00:41:12,960 --> 00:41:15,319
Speaker 2: very recently they're been big. They've been protesting to bed

770
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: again because the CCP is trying to build a damn

771
00:41:17,360 --> 00:41:19,520
Speaker 2: that's going to flood and destroy a bunch of monasteries.

772
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:22,719
Speaker 2: And I don't think anyone's let themselves on fire over it,

773
00:41:22,920 --> 00:41:29,200
Speaker 2: but the police just arrested everyone, and so I don't know.

774
00:41:29,239 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 2: It's really bleak, and I think the the Fruz to

775
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 2: Bat movement has become much weaker as the sort of

776
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 2: like twenty tens went on to the point where now

777
00:41:42,480 --> 00:41:45,200
Speaker 2: I think like most America, like most of the sort

778
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,800
Speaker 2: of like broad American far left basically just takes the

779
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: Chinese line on it, which is that like the Dalai

780
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:52,880
Speaker 2: Lama was a slave owner and the Chinese occupation was

781
00:41:52,920 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 2: a gift.

782
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: Yeah.

783
00:41:54,360 --> 00:41:56,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I want to take like two, like a

784
00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 2: couple like a minute to talk about this, because like

785
00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:02,080
Speaker 2: that a lot, yeah, and it's this thing where, like,

786
00:42:02,120 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: you know, it's really interesting looking at a lot of

787
00:42:04,320 --> 00:42:07,040
Speaker 2: these people who are who are anti Tibet but pro Palestine,

788
00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:09,279
Speaker 2: because you know, if you look at the originators oft

789
00:42:09,280 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: CETA colonial studies, like people like Patrick Wolfe, right, who

790
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: was like the godfather of Cetera colonialism studies, Tibet is

791
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 2: one of the states that he holds up like as

792
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:21,719
Speaker 2: the paradigmatic example of what ceda colonialism is. It's Palestine

793
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:26,399
Speaker 2: and Tibet, right, And you know, I like the thing

794
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 2: about oh it was because they were trying to like

795
00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: free the Tibetan search really pisses me off because if

796
00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 2: that was the actual thing the CCP wanted to do,

797
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:38,239
Speaker 2: they could have done a thing that happened all over

798
00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:40,919
Speaker 2: the fucking world in communist countries, which is they could

799
00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:42,520
Speaker 2: have moved in, they could have knocked off the government,

800
00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:44,560
Speaker 2: and they could have set up a communist Tibetan state.

801
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:44,920
Speaker 1: Right.

802
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 2: This happens all over the fucking Eastern Bloc. There's precedents

803
00:42:48,120 --> 00:42:50,800
Speaker 2: for it in East Asia, which you know, there's a

804
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:52,920
Speaker 2: president of Mongolia, which was also i mean a very

805
00:42:52,960 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 2: different Buddhist society but also a largely Buddhist society where

806
00:42:56,480 --> 00:42:58,480
Speaker 2: the Soviet Union went in knocked off the government and

807
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,480
Speaker 2: set off set up an independent at Mongolian state, right

808
00:43:02,080 --> 00:43:03,959
Speaker 2: And I'm not going to say things like went great

809
00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 2: for Mongolia. But the thing is if if if your

810
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:10,440
Speaker 2: actual objective is just knock off a theocratic government that

811
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:13,000
Speaker 2: you don't like, you could have done that, and they don't,

812
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:13,640
Speaker 2: they don't.

813
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 1: Do it, and pretty China, it's also worth like stating like, yeah,

814
00:43:18,400 --> 00:43:21,239
Speaker 1: things maybe not like didn't work out great in the

815
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,440
Speaker 1: immediate term for Mongolia, but Mongolia is a state right now,

816
00:43:24,560 --> 00:43:27,000
Speaker 1: is not like the worst. It's not doing as badly

817
00:43:27,040 --> 00:43:29,560
Speaker 1: as like Tibet is doing, you know, like it's it's

818
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 1: an independent country that functions more or less. Yeah, and

819
00:43:33,760 --> 00:43:35,880
Speaker 1: who does better than functioning more or less?

820
00:43:35,920 --> 00:43:38,640
Speaker 2: Really yeah, like and this I don't know and this

821
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 2: is this is the sort of that's and that's one

822
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:46,080
Speaker 2: of the things that like Chinese nationalists tend not to

823
00:43:46,200 --> 00:43:47,960
Speaker 2: really use that line. I mean, they use it a

824
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 2: bit when when they're when they're personally like when they

825
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,600
Speaker 2: have to like specifically make arguments about Dalai Lama, that's

826
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:56,120
Speaker 2: something they do. But most of the arguments that the

827
00:43:56,239 --> 00:43:58,959
Speaker 2: that the actual like supporters of the Chinese government in China,

828
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:00,839
Speaker 2: the arguments they make is like, oh, well, these people

829
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:02,840
Speaker 2: are like, these people are shitty barbarians and we have

830
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: to like we have to civilize them, and like our

831
00:44:04,520 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: invasion was a gift to them because we're going to

832
00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:09,480
Speaker 2: civilize these people. And like it's it's literally it's like

833
00:44:09,520 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 2: identical to the shit that like that the Israeli say

834
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 2: about Palastinians. We should also very briefly mention that a

835
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,200
Speaker 2: lot of the surveillance technology that's used in Tibet, like

836
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:23,040
Speaker 2: our cameras, that the Chinese government sells to Palestine. So

837
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: keep that shit in mind. Yeah, And I don't know,

838
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:30,399
Speaker 2: but it's it's this. This is one of the really

839
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:33,440
Speaker 2: bleak examples because the thing about self immolation as of

840
00:44:33,480 --> 00:44:40,799
Speaker 2: politics is that, like it functions by mobilizing someone else, right,

841
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:44,160
Speaker 2: and in some cases that's that's you know, that's another government,

842
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,760
Speaker 2: in some cases that's your own government, in some cases

843
00:44:46,760 --> 00:44:49,160
Speaker 2: that's the people around you. But if you're in a

844
00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 2: state where the government does not give a shit about you,

845
00:44:53,400 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 2: and they have the ability to ruthlessly repress anyone who's

846
00:44:59,719 --> 00:45:03,800
Speaker 2: inspe fired by your actions, it just it leads to

847
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:08,359
Speaker 2: a lot of people dying. And I don't know what

848
00:45:08,520 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: this sort of lesson from that is other than it's

849
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,680
Speaker 2: really hard for and this is this was the thing

850
00:45:14,680 --> 00:45:16,880
Speaker 2: with Hong Kong too, is it's it's really hard for

851
00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:23,279
Speaker 2: any one, any one part of China to try to

852
00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 2: go into revolt against the government because there's so much

853
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 2: more of the rest of fucking China and if if you,

854
00:45:30,000 --> 00:45:32,919
Speaker 2: if you, if you alone are pitted against the entire

855
00:45:33,000 --> 00:45:35,200
Speaker 2: miny of Chinese state that has broad popular backing your

856
00:45:35,200 --> 00:45:39,960
Speaker 2: fucked yeah, and it's it's really bleak.

857
00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:43,719
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, yeah, I don't have anything positive to

858
00:45:43,760 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 1: say there. Hey, everybody, Robert here. Our discussion ran very long,

859
00:45:49,520 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 1: so this is going to be a two parter. You'll

860
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: be hearing about Tunisia and more in the next episode,

861
00:45:55,880 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 1: but for now, please continue listening to our podcasts and

862
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Speaker 1: not other podcasts because how would you do that? Who

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Speaker 1: would do that? Nobody? I like.

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Speaker 2: It could happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

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Speaker 2: coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

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Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts you can

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Speaker 2: find sources for It could happen here. Updated monthly at

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Speaker 2: coolzonemedia dot com slash sources.

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Speaker 1: Thanks for listening,