1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,360 Speaker 1: Ruthie's Table four is now on YouTube. 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,960 Speaker 2: To watch this episode and others, just visit Ruthy's Table 3 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:08,360 Speaker 2: four dot com forward slash YouTube. 4 00:00:08,920 --> 00:00:12,280 Speaker 1: You're listening to Ruthie's Table four in collaboration with me 5 00:00:12,360 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: and em Intelligence Style for Busy Women. Last November, after 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: a long day in the River cafe, I was finally 7 00:00:23,239 --> 00:00:26,320 Speaker 1: getting into a taxi there when I saw three women 8 00:00:26,760 --> 00:00:30,480 Speaker 1: kind of lost looking for our front door. Instinctively, I 9 00:00:30,520 --> 00:00:33,880 Speaker 1: felt they were from New York, and instinctively I knew 10 00:00:33,920 --> 00:00:36,400 Speaker 1: it had been a long day for them too. It 11 00:00:36,479 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: was only when they were safely inside that I looked 12 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:42,320 Speaker 1: up and saw someone I'd never met, but I'd always loved, 13 00:00:42,840 --> 00:00:47,239 Speaker 1: Annie Leibowitz. The restaurant wasn't ready for dinner, but we 14 00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:49,760 Speaker 1: went to a table close to the kitchen. It began 15 00:00:49,800 --> 00:00:54,160 Speaker 1: a conversation that I wished could have lasted forever. What 16 00:00:54,280 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: we were thinking, of, the books we'd been reading, where 17 00:00:57,080 --> 00:01:00,279 Speaker 1: we were going, how we were feeling, and the friends 18 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,120 Speaker 1: we shared. Today. Annie is here at home to continue 19 00:01:04,160 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: the conversation. We'll talk about food, our memories, her mother's 20 00:01:09,360 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: recipe for chicken liver, and most of all, her book 21 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: Women That is next to my bed. Annie Leebou. It's 22 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:18,200 Speaker 1: a woman I met in the rain, a woman I 23 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,440 Speaker 1: loved before meeting her, and a friend I love now. 24 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. 25 00:01:23,920 --> 00:01:26,240 Speaker 1: So we were just that day. 26 00:01:26,640 --> 00:01:29,759 Speaker 2: Yes, we were just coming from Linda and it's very 27 00:01:29,840 --> 00:01:31,840 Speaker 2: rare that we have time at the end of the day. 28 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:33,880 Speaker 2: And Catherine said, come on, we're going to go to 29 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:37,040 Speaker 2: River Cafe. And we couldn't believe it that we could 30 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 2: find the door or anything. And the Rear Cafe is 31 00:01:42,280 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: probably the most iconic restaurant in London, and you know 32 00:01:48,200 --> 00:01:51,920 Speaker 2: it's usually like hard to get into. But there was 33 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,880 Speaker 2: a time in the late nineties, you know, when I 34 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,560 Speaker 2: was with Susan Sontag. She was obsessed with food and 35 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:04,559 Speaker 2: going out and and my time with her, I really 36 00:02:04,640 --> 00:02:09,520 Speaker 2: learned about going out to eat. With Susan Sontak, you know, 37 00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:11,160 Speaker 2: she loved the River. 38 00:02:12,639 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: Was it Did you ever cook at home? And it 39 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:15,880 Speaker 1: was food going out? 40 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:19,920 Speaker 2: Well, at a certain point, you know, I really wanted 41 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,760 Speaker 2: I wanted to stay home, and I started to argue 42 00:02:23,760 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 2: with her about not going out all the time. And 43 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:32,560 Speaker 2: you know, she knew Alice Waters and honestly, everything that 44 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 2: I know about food screams down from from Alice Waters. Well, 45 00:02:37,240 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 2: that's a. 46 00:02:37,520 --> 00:02:41,480 Speaker 1: Good that's a good stream down because she is an influence. 47 00:02:41,600 --> 00:02:44,520 Speaker 2: I had to cook, you know Mona Talbot who worked 48 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,799 Speaker 2: with Alice, And you know, all the people I know 49 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 2: are kind of like in food. I'm a big admirer 50 00:02:52,040 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 2: of food, but I don't cook myself because I'm I'm 51 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,680 Speaker 2: working all the time. But I having children, I wanted 52 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:03,519 Speaker 2: them to to eat well. And you know, we really 53 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 2: you know Mona Talbot and Laura's Reuben, if you know 54 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:12,720 Speaker 2: Laura's Reuben, but they were they each one of them, 55 00:03:13,000 --> 00:03:15,040 Speaker 2: you know, had worked, had worked for me, and now 56 00:03:15,120 --> 00:03:16,920 Speaker 2: they are on off on their own. 57 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 1: I was going to ask you, So you grew up, 58 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: you had you had six children in your family, So 59 00:03:23,320 --> 00:03:25,360 Speaker 1: you had a mother who cooked. 60 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:29,960 Speaker 2: Father, Yeah, she cooked, but she was The food was 61 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 2: was really not very very good. 62 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: If you're feeding six children, by the way, I mean that, 63 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: but how many what level? Where are you in the sty? 64 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 1: I mean the third two older and right? Were younger? 65 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 2: Right? 66 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:45,840 Speaker 1: And what was that like having all those kids? Did 67 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: you all sit down to dinner every night? 68 00:03:49,080 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: Tried? You know, my my father was in the military. 69 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:55,800 Speaker 2: He had come back from World War two, and started 70 00:03:55,800 --> 00:03:58,920 Speaker 2: a business in Waterbury, Connecticut. It kind of went bankrupt, 71 00:03:59,000 --> 00:04:01,560 Speaker 2: and then he went back into the military. And then 72 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: we grew up, you know, moving every couple of. 73 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:08,760 Speaker 1: Years, going you know, on the road somewhere. 74 00:04:08,640 --> 00:04:12,600 Speaker 2: Blocks in Mississippi, for Worth, Texas, Fairbanks, Alaska. 75 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 1: Because he was because of the military, and he stayed 76 00:04:15,680 --> 00:04:16,280 Speaker 1: in the military. 77 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,719 Speaker 2: He stayed in the military. He retired and then he 78 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:24,320 Speaker 2: went into you know, building houses, and he succeeded, you know, 79 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:25,200 Speaker 2: he did very well. 80 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:27,159 Speaker 1: And so what was it like sitting down to dinner 81 00:04:27,200 --> 00:04:29,599 Speaker 1: with six children your mother? Would she cook a different 82 00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: meal every day or would they all kind of. 83 00:04:34,040 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 2: Depending on what day of the week it was. That's 84 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:41,240 Speaker 2: what like, you know, Friday night was fish sticks, Saturday 85 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 2: was hot hot dogs. You know, it's like Sunday would 86 00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:46,159 Speaker 2: be a roast beef. You know. 87 00:04:46,360 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 1: Did she work? Did she have a job? 88 00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:50,880 Speaker 2: I mean she didn't really on and off she she worked, 89 00:04:50,920 --> 00:04:54,600 Speaker 2: you know, but she pretty much you know, had us 90 00:04:54,640 --> 00:04:58,800 Speaker 2: and it was full on. But she was such a 91 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 2: bad cook. She didn't want us the vision she was 92 00:05:02,000 --> 00:05:05,919 Speaker 2: and she was not a good cook, I see, And 93 00:05:05,960 --> 00:05:08,919 Speaker 2: I didn't know that food could taste cook until you know, 94 00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:13,239 Speaker 2: I left home. I didn't know bread. It was like 95 00:05:13,240 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 2: like wonderbread. And so when we left home. But she 96 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:19,359 Speaker 2: was a great baker. 97 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:22,280 Speaker 1: She actually so she cooked. That's cooking. 98 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: It was a great baker. And she would make the 99 00:05:25,160 --> 00:05:27,080 Speaker 2: best desserts and pumped. 100 00:05:27,279 --> 00:05:29,240 Speaker 1: But I remember what you remember her? 101 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:34,520 Speaker 2: The Angel food cake. Angel food cake was our birthday cake. 102 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 1: That cake that rises very high and it was beautiful. 103 00:05:38,120 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 1: And did you but the's still the meals? Would you all? 104 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 1: Was it chaotic or did you? Because I'm still slightly 105 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: overwhelmed by six children. Part of the still I. 106 00:05:47,160 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: Think, especially as as you know, my older sister and 107 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 2: brother left for college and and it just sort of 108 00:05:56,320 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 2: dwindled down. Yeah, it was hard to We tried. I 109 00:06:00,680 --> 00:06:03,720 Speaker 2: think there was an attempt to try to sit together, 110 00:06:03,839 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: but it didn't really didn't always work. She never I'm 111 00:06:08,600 --> 00:06:10,680 Speaker 2: just remembering. She never really sat down for dinner. 112 00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:11,240 Speaker 1: She didn't. 113 00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 2: She would like stand in the kitchen. 114 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 1: And did your father cook it all? 115 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:15,320 Speaker 2: No? 116 00:06:16,040 --> 00:06:18,000 Speaker 1: Okay, did you know he would? 117 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,200 Speaker 2: Well he could do egg plant on the you know, 118 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: because his mother cooked. His mother who was your grandmother, 119 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,839 Speaker 2: they Rachel Rachel Rachel leeve Vits. But you would go 120 00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:31,719 Speaker 2: to her house and she would always have a kitchen. 121 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:36,479 Speaker 2: She always have a chicken in a that's pretty good. 122 00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,680 Speaker 2: She always had chicken. She lived in Waterbury, Connecticut, So 123 00:06:40,320 --> 00:06:42,880 Speaker 2: you know, I would say, when I started working for 124 00:06:42,960 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 2: Rolling Stone, you know, and I was working on the 125 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,039 Speaker 2: East Coast, I would sometimes, you know, go up and. 126 00:06:48,040 --> 00:06:52,160 Speaker 1: See her drive is a chicken liver recipe that you have? 127 00:06:52,320 --> 00:06:55,040 Speaker 2: The chicken liver is my mother. 128 00:06:55,800 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: So when she wasn't baking, she did make a recipe 129 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,280 Speaker 1: that you have. How many years later this is kept We. 130 00:07:02,279 --> 00:07:06,040 Speaker 2: All remember this because you know, and and it's true 131 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,760 Speaker 2: to her. In her later years, she was saved food. 132 00:07:09,840 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 2: I mean, I think, you know, being not having much money, 133 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: they were very careful about about food, and so she 134 00:07:17,040 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 2: would save food and you know, leftovers. And then when 135 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: you would go visit my father and my mother in 136 00:07:25,760 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: their later years, there'd be things in the refrigerator you'd 137 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 2: be afraid to will. You didn't know what you were, 138 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 2: you know, you'd be afraid to eat. She was great 139 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: around the holidays. She loved holidays. 140 00:07:40,000 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: And when would you have the chicken liver? 141 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 2: Almost every holiday she would make she would make this, uh, 142 00:07:48,040 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 2: this chopped chip chick chopped chicken liver. 143 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,000 Speaker 1: It was your identity as a family Jewish family. So 144 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: and what was the background where did they come with 145 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:00,720 Speaker 1: a your grandparents come or your great grandparents? 146 00:08:01,120 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 2: Well, uh, but my father Romania and his mother Romania 147 00:08:08,000 --> 00:08:12,720 Speaker 2: and then my mother was Curi and which is really 148 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 2: Russia at the time. 149 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, so the identity of Jewish food chicken liver. I 150 00:08:19,320 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 1: grew up, you know, chicken livers. It was very kind 151 00:08:22,400 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: of identifiable recipe for a kitchen. 152 00:08:26,680 --> 00:08:29,080 Speaker 2: She left us a recipe, but it was it was 153 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: still like it's it's still very vague. You know. My 154 00:08:33,360 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: my younger sister and I tried to make it. We're 155 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 2: not too sure of the ingredients, and we worked on it. 156 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:45,200 Speaker 2: The last few usually happens at at I know it's 157 00:08:45,200 --> 00:08:47,520 Speaker 2: a chicken liver, but we usually do it at beleeve 158 00:08:47,600 --> 00:08:50,719 Speaker 2: or not at Thanksgiving. So we go out and get 159 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,199 Speaker 2: the chicken livers and you make it. It is funny 160 00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 2: because when my mother my father died first, and when 161 00:08:57,600 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 2: then when my mother died, and we were going through 162 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:02,760 Speaker 2: through all the belongings in the house, and you know, 163 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: between the six of us, you know, everyone pretty much 164 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:07,160 Speaker 2: talked about what they would like to have out of 165 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,439 Speaker 2: what was there of my my parents. Everyone was very 166 00:09:11,440 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 2: happy with you know, how we divided everything up. And 167 00:09:15,040 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 2: I have one sister who's a lawyer, so she was 168 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:20,160 Speaker 2: there in case, you know, we decided, you know, there 169 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 2: was a problem. So there was only one problem, and 170 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 2: that was my sister Barbara wanted chopping device, you know, 171 00:09:29,120 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 2: there and there, So there were actually two of them, 172 00:09:31,679 --> 00:09:33,840 Speaker 2: and then there were wooden bowl two wooden bowls that 173 00:09:34,120 --> 00:09:37,000 Speaker 2: they made the chicken liver. My mom made the chicken livers, 174 00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:38,719 Speaker 2: and so there was a bit a bit of a 175 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:42,160 Speaker 2: fight for it. So we had to like draw straws, 176 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,600 Speaker 2: you know, and you wanted it and she wanted she 177 00:09:44,640 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 2: wanted it. 178 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, it was great and who got it? She got it? 179 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:52,920 Speaker 1: I got the secondary one though, And what is that photograph? 180 00:09:53,559 --> 00:09:57,000 Speaker 2: That's my mother who was a hard act to follow 181 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:02,000 Speaker 2: for sure. I mean she danced. She took you know, 182 00:10:02,080 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 2: lessons from Martha and Graham when she was young. 183 00:10:04,480 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 1: And did she dance with you? Did you dance with her? 184 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:07,719 Speaker 1: With her? 185 00:10:08,120 --> 00:10:11,080 Speaker 2: She sent us all to dance lessons. I mean I've 186 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:13,800 Speaker 2: gone to dance classes with her. But you know, I 187 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 2: mean she danced until you know, until until you know, 188 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: late in her life. 189 00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:21,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, she studied with. 190 00:10:23,080 --> 00:10:24,320 Speaker 2: No not with Twilight with. 191 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 1: Martha Graham and Martha if. 192 00:10:27,440 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 2: You if you look at photographer's life, there were photographs 193 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 2: of her father. 194 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:37,040 Speaker 1: This photographs taken at your mother and just to. 195 00:10:37,040 --> 00:10:39,599 Speaker 2: The Hampton's just my father and mother just on the 196 00:10:39,679 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 2: beach and my mom's just doing her kick. She was 197 00:10:41,840 --> 00:10:44,440 Speaker 2: famous for her kick whenever. 198 00:10:45,080 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 1: And if we can see this on YouTube, we can. 199 00:10:48,240 --> 00:10:51,079 Speaker 1: On the audio we can, but it's beautiful. Did you 200 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 1: mostly eat out? Did you eat out restaurants or six ado? 201 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:56,000 Speaker 1: We never could never eat out. 202 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:59,600 Speaker 2: I even remember there was a period of tiv dinners 203 00:10:59,800 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 2: you yeah, yeah, So. 204 00:11:02,240 --> 00:11:04,559 Speaker 1: After living at home, when when did you leave home? 205 00:11:04,679 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: What did you do when you well, I kind of 206 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: went to. 207 00:11:07,280 --> 00:11:11,559 Speaker 2: High school in the San Francisco Art Institute in San Francisco, 208 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 2: And it's not quite clear to me when food really 209 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: became more important. I knew it tasted better when I left, 210 00:11:24,600 --> 00:11:32,160 Speaker 2: for sure. I think the first year I was I 211 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:35,880 Speaker 2: was away from home. I ate corn flakes and ice cream, 212 00:11:35,920 --> 00:11:37,920 Speaker 2: you know, I mean I didn't really you know that 213 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:38,480 Speaker 2: you went. 214 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,760 Speaker 1: To when you went to the Art Institute that presumably 215 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:43,640 Speaker 1: had an apartment or you lived in No, I had residence. 216 00:11:43,800 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 2: Well, I lived the first first semester with my older 217 00:11:46,720 --> 00:11:49,800 Speaker 2: sister who was in Berkeley, and then moved into the 218 00:11:49,880 --> 00:11:52,840 Speaker 2: city into into an apartment, and then shared an apartment 219 00:11:52,960 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 2: on on Telegraph Hill. What year was that, sixty nine nineties? 220 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, in sixty nine. I came here because a lot 221 00:12:03,440 --> 00:12:05,959 Speaker 1: of my friends were leaving for the draft, you know, 222 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:09,640 Speaker 1: because of the war. There's a picture upstairs I'll show 223 00:12:09,640 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: you have a demonstration outside the embassy. But they were 224 00:12:12,840 --> 00:12:13,800 Speaker 1: heady times, you know. 225 00:12:13,920 --> 00:12:16,200 Speaker 2: I do want to say it was interesting coming into 226 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 2: to London and I was in Spain just you know, 227 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 2: opening a show there of fashion work at the mob 228 00:12:24,800 --> 00:12:30,240 Speaker 2: Foundation there in a Corona, and just leaving the United 229 00:12:30,280 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 2: States and coming into London. It just it just felt 230 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 2: so normal. 231 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: We can talk about that. 232 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:42,800 Speaker 2: In your perception it may not be, but compared to 233 00:12:42,960 --> 00:12:48,160 Speaker 2: America now, it's just you don't realize the tension and 234 00:12:48,880 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 2: the impression and the oppression in the era. Yeah. 235 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: I was there last week, and I mean every morning 236 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: I wake up and I read the New York Times, 237 00:12:56,840 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: you know, and every night I go to bed and 238 00:12:58,280 --> 00:13:01,000 Speaker 1: I watched Christian on a Board else on CNN. So 239 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 1: you feel I mean, I do feel it. 240 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,440 Speaker 2: You try not to see the news all the time. 241 00:13:06,640 --> 00:13:10,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you can't. You can't, you can't, well, I can't. 242 00:13:10,320 --> 00:13:12,320 Speaker 1: But then I always say, it's a bit like pollution. 243 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:16,319 Speaker 1: You know that we're walking around and we don't you know, 244 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 1: if we don't see it, we know there is something 245 00:13:18,440 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: in the air that's getting inside us and making us sick. 246 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:25,439 Speaker 1: It's like when people swam when there was small in California. 247 00:13:25,600 --> 00:13:27,640 Speaker 1: Do you remember in the eighties and people would swim 248 00:13:27,760 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: and a friend of mine said, you'd get out of 249 00:13:29,240 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 1: the pool and you couldn't catch your breath. And sometimes 250 00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,120 Speaker 1: I personally feel I can't catch your breath because it's 251 00:13:35,160 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: so bad you know what is going on in our country. 252 00:13:38,520 --> 00:13:41,400 Speaker 1: But I think there probably is a bit of distance 253 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: that you get here. I know from friends of mine 254 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: who live in New York or California wherever they're living, 255 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: and they get here, they say exactly what you say. 256 00:13:48,800 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 2: Really, it just feels it's that palatable, you know that 257 00:13:53,160 --> 00:13:57,600 Speaker 2: you feel. I mean, you think, well, now you understand 258 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,079 Speaker 2: why people move here. I mean, I'm I'm American, and 259 00:14:02,520 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 2: I'm I'm going to I have I have work to 260 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 2: do there, you know, I want to work on, you know, 261 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: whatever can be done. I mean, it was interesting. I 262 00:14:14,360 --> 00:14:17,360 Speaker 2: saw Christian Naboord do an interview with John Stewart. 263 00:14:17,920 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 1: Yeah he's great. Yeah, he is phenomenal and she is. 264 00:14:22,640 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: They both she said, you know, she made me feel like, 265 00:14:26,440 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 2: you know, we are doing our job. We're reporting this, 266 00:14:31,440 --> 00:14:34,320 Speaker 2: we're we're going to continue doing this. We're going to 267 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,800 Speaker 2: just and that is what we need to just keep doing. 268 00:14:38,000 --> 00:14:41,600 Speaker 2: So it was very promising to hear her speak, even 269 00:14:41,680 --> 00:14:44,440 Speaker 2: though it's it's really it's really hard. 270 00:14:44,640 --> 00:14:47,000 Speaker 1: I think that's what I ask everyone is how do 271 00:14:47,080 --> 00:14:49,040 Speaker 1: we oppose? You know, I know how we used to 272 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: pose you stop, you demonstrate, you don't pay your taxes, 273 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: you chain yourself to the West House, and then you think, 274 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: what do we how do we do that now? But 275 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,760 Speaker 1: I think, you know, and I don't know, we just 276 00:15:01,920 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: every day we're thinking about it and acting on it 277 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: and talking. I think it is important to talk about 278 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: it and to take steps and to be you know, 279 00:15:10,440 --> 00:15:12,920 Speaker 1: as we just saw in the White House the other 280 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,680 Speaker 1: day in the Oval office, with an ABC journalist being 281 00:15:15,760 --> 00:15:19,080 Speaker 1: spoken to in a way, or a Bloomberg journalist being 282 00:15:19,160 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 1: called picky, you know, why didn't people walk. You know, 283 00:15:22,320 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 1: why didn't everyone just walk out of that room say 284 00:15:24,760 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 1: this cannot be done. You cannot do this, you. 285 00:15:27,960 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 2: Know speaking, which is why you know, you know the 286 00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:34,360 Speaker 2: Women's book, you. 287 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:37,400 Speaker 1: Know, yes, let's talk about that with this. 288 00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,400 Speaker 2: I feel so responsible to it. I wish I was. 289 00:15:42,520 --> 00:15:44,600 Speaker 2: The people who should be talking are really the people 290 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,480 Speaker 2: who wrote the essays, you know, Susan Sontag and Glorious 291 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:51,880 Speaker 2: Steynem and Shim and Manda. You know, the essays are 292 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:54,600 Speaker 2: amazing and they are they are really really they are. 293 00:15:55,120 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: And it was interesting with with Gloria because I really 294 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:01,800 Speaker 2: when her right away when I when I thought about 295 00:16:01,840 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 2: doing the second volume, you know, and you know, she 296 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 2: she wrote something that was you know, nice to begin with, 297 00:16:10,880 --> 00:16:15,360 Speaker 2: and I I, you know, I called her back up 298 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:17,760 Speaker 2: and I said, Gloria, no, you need to tell us 299 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:21,440 Speaker 2: where we are. What's going on? Are we gone backwards? 300 00:16:21,520 --> 00:16:24,800 Speaker 2: You know since we lost roe versus weight? What is 301 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:28,680 Speaker 2: going Yeah, you know, like where you know? And she 302 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:33,240 Speaker 2: put it into perspectives so well. I mean, she grew 303 00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,520 Speaker 2: up in the fifties and she said, we're not going backwards, 304 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 2: you know. And I loved Chimamanda saying, you know, these 305 00:16:40,720 --> 00:16:44,760 Speaker 2: women in the new book. You couldn't done that those 306 00:16:44,840 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 2: photographs twenty five years ago. Why these women are she said, 307 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: fearlessly confident? You know it's true? I mean I felt 308 00:16:57,240 --> 00:16:59,320 Speaker 2: that was the word I was using, was that I 309 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,360 Speaker 2: felt a comp evidence in who we are as women 310 00:17:03,440 --> 00:17:08,119 Speaker 2: today in these photographs. But when she said fearlessly you know, 311 00:17:08,480 --> 00:17:10,800 Speaker 2: or and quietly confident, you know. 312 00:17:11,080 --> 00:17:13,879 Speaker 1: Well, tell me about the first volume in the second pisode, 313 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: the first one was written. 314 00:17:15,440 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 2: Well, no, the first the first one was done with 315 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 2: Susan's antag nineteen. 316 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:22,040 Speaker 1: That's what I was asking the nineteen ninety and she 317 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: that was twenty five years ago. 318 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 2: Yes, and things weren't. We're pretty good for women. I 319 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:30,359 Speaker 2: mean in the late nineties, middle late nineties, it was 320 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,359 Speaker 2: you know, it just came out of Hillary Clinton at 321 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:37,119 Speaker 2: the Beijing Conference for Women as the first lady saying 322 00:17:37,240 --> 00:17:40,680 Speaker 2: you know that that speech for things went you know, 323 00:17:40,920 --> 00:17:43,800 Speaker 2: it went viral basically where she said, you know, women's rights, 324 00:17:43,840 --> 00:17:47,200 Speaker 2: her human rights, human rights, women's rights. 325 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: Right. 326 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 2: It was Susan's idea to do a book on women, 327 00:17:49,440 --> 00:17:52,280 Speaker 2: and I thought it was a bad idea because I 328 00:17:52,440 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 2: just thought it was too big of a subject. It 329 00:17:54,280 --> 00:17:56,000 Speaker 2: was like you're talking about, you know, doing your book 330 00:17:56,040 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: with everche you know, just pick one. 331 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:01,680 Speaker 1: One thing, Lemons. But there is a continuity to it. 332 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: There is a power to that book that it has. 333 00:18:04,160 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 1: It has a range, but it has a very each page, 334 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,200 Speaker 1: every photograph takes you there. And then sometimes I look 335 00:18:10,240 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: at it, as I said, it's next to my bed 336 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,960 Speaker 1: and an original. Do you have the when it first 337 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:17,840 Speaker 1: came out, No, I don't, No, I don't. 338 00:18:17,920 --> 00:18:20,800 Speaker 2: So you know, I I too think it's it's like 339 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:24,520 Speaker 2: a remarkable book. It was designed by Ruth Ansel. It 340 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,440 Speaker 2: was really a great designer and and there was a 341 00:18:28,480 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 2: lot of thought put into it. It was it was 342 00:18:30,560 --> 00:18:35,840 Speaker 2: really yeah, we we imagined. I mean I I kind 343 00:18:35,880 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 2: of thought about every single walk of life, try to 344 00:18:40,440 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 2: try to have as many different walks of life as possible. 345 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 2: And it was really kind of modeled after August Sanders 346 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 2: book on you know, people in different trades, you know, 347 00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:54,080 Speaker 2: in Germany. It took it took you know, three years, 348 00:18:54,160 --> 00:18:56,760 Speaker 2: three four years, you know, photographs done for the book. 349 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:00,639 Speaker 2: So and this, So the second volume is really just 350 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 2: an homage to the first volume. It's just a collection 351 00:19:04,200 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: of work that I've been in the last thirty years, 352 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:11,679 Speaker 2: twenty five, thirty years since the first volume, and certainly 353 00:19:12,280 --> 00:19:16,879 Speaker 2: I never had any kind of plans to to make that, 354 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: to make another volume on women, you know, so this 355 00:19:19,800 --> 00:19:22,440 Speaker 2: was this was like it's more like a magazine. You know. 356 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: I just kind of like, did it really? We did 357 00:19:25,119 --> 00:19:27,440 Speaker 2: this in a year? We did this like really fast, 358 00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: and that is fast. Hillary Clinton had had come to 359 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,480 Speaker 2: me about a year ago and said, we really would 360 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:38,200 Speaker 2: like to commemorate the original book from nineteen ninety nine, 361 00:19:38,320 --> 00:19:41,440 Speaker 2: and the book was out of print, and I thought 362 00:19:41,440 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 2: it was an interesting idea, and then we thought about 363 00:19:46,000 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: I thought about this companion book to put with it. 364 00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:51,200 Speaker 1: Did you mean Alice, by the way, in the early 365 00:19:52,280 --> 00:19:55,320 Speaker 1: is that when you were there, not till. 366 00:19:55,320 --> 00:19:58,680 Speaker 2: You really knowing Susan, I mean I opened up the whole, 367 00:19:59,240 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 2: you know, I became a little more serious knowing Susan. 368 00:20:02,680 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 2: But I met, you know, so many incredible people. 369 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: I mean, Susan loved food. Susan loved Did she grow 370 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 1: up with good food? 371 00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:12,240 Speaker 2: She? 372 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:14,680 Speaker 1: Did she grow up with good food in her That's 373 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: a good question. 374 00:20:15,400 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 2: I mean she would have been a great person for 375 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,680 Speaker 2: your Gusty, because you know, we ate out every every 376 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 2: every single night, and she would you know, comb the 377 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,040 Speaker 2: New York Times for reviews of restaurants, and all over 378 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:31,520 Speaker 2: her refrigerator would be she ripped them out and put 379 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 2: them on the refrigerator, and and she when she walked 380 00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:41,160 Speaker 2: into a restaurant, it was like, you know, the Queen 381 00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:43,439 Speaker 2: was walking and they always had a table, you. 382 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,760 Speaker 1: Know, for her, and she was I was just reading 383 00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:48,920 Speaker 1: about Joan Didion. Did you read that piece in the 384 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: New York Times? 385 00:20:49,560 --> 00:20:52,440 Speaker 2: No, I did. I did not read that piece about 386 00:20:52,480 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 2: their Thanksgiving. I know, I know many people who went 387 00:20:55,920 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 2: to that Thanksgiving. They were kind of like people had 388 00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:59,359 Speaker 2: no place else to go. 389 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:00,040 Speaker 1: They were. 390 00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 2: Mona Talbot, who it's kind of like this protege from 391 00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:11,040 Speaker 2: from Alice Waters. We were doing a fundraiser for Hillary Clinton, 392 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 2: and you know, Mona was cooking for me at the 393 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:15,680 Speaker 2: time because I had managed to talk to Susan into 394 00:21:15,760 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 2: letting me have a cook and then you know, like 395 00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,120 Speaker 2: maybe once or twice a week we would eat at home. 396 00:21:21,280 --> 00:21:27,240 Speaker 2: She's the one who, for Susan's sixtieth birthday made her brains. 397 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,680 Speaker 1: Very funny actually, to give Susan brains exactly. 398 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:37,280 Speaker 2: So it was great to be home eating. 399 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:38,440 Speaker 1: Did you eats. 400 00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 2: I didn't. I don't remember eating them. 401 00:21:41,200 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: I don't. 402 00:21:41,600 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: Susan would eat anything, you know, So she made her brains. 403 00:21:48,520 --> 00:21:53,159 Speaker 2: But Mona stayed on through my first having my first daughter, Sarah, 404 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,879 Speaker 2: and she's the godmother of Sarah. And but when we 405 00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 2: had that fundraiser for Hillary Clinton, she insisted upon bringing 406 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,960 Speaker 2: in apples from the Hudson Valley and and it was 407 00:22:06,160 --> 00:22:08,320 Speaker 2: it was like, she said, why do people buy fruit 408 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: from Florida? You know, you have the Huston Valley which 409 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:17,080 Speaker 2: has this incredible fruit and farms. It's amazing. And I 410 00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:22,800 Speaker 2: honestly never understood that about the Husson Valley. And it 411 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 2: was like she really has helped develop the whole food 412 00:22:27,080 --> 00:22:30,080 Speaker 2: idea in the Husson Valleys. You know, it's like sort 413 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 2: of sprung out from from Alice. And so she has 414 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,520 Speaker 2: a wonderful uh place in Husson that she's you know, 415 00:22:41,840 --> 00:22:44,920 Speaker 2: sells food from all the wonderful farmers and everything. And 416 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:49,320 Speaker 2: but anyway, I ended up finding this place upstate because 417 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:51,399 Speaker 2: you know, I didn't even know there was an upstate. 418 00:22:53,040 --> 00:22:58,000 Speaker 1: It's amazing and it's fine that we call upstate state state, 419 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,920 Speaker 1: but it's very tied to New York. So tell me 420 00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:02,400 Speaker 1: about it. What is Do you have a farm there? 421 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 1: Do you grow? 422 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:04,800 Speaker 2: No? I have a couple of hundred acres, but we 423 00:23:05,800 --> 00:23:09,760 Speaker 2: is it on the river. The buildings aren't on the river. 424 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:11,440 Speaker 2: I was always gonna build on the river, but you 425 00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 2: could walk out to the river. But it does go 426 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 2: out to the river. But for sure, we have a 427 00:23:19,680 --> 00:23:24,600 Speaker 2: vegetable garden that we love. And we have chickens, you know, 428 00:23:24,800 --> 00:23:28,719 Speaker 2: and we nothing like fresh eggs. And my daughters they 429 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:34,639 Speaker 2: all are great cooks, are they Okay, they have a. 430 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 1: Susan here, so tell me about their cooking. 431 00:23:38,640 --> 00:23:41,720 Speaker 2: They you know what, I'm impressed with my older daughter. 432 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:46,280 Speaker 2: She can make anything out of leftovers. It's kind of impressive. 433 00:23:46,400 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 2: You know. She loves to to dabble like that. And 434 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: she and I have a cook but she doesn't want 435 00:23:52,720 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: the cook to cook for she likes to cook, you know, 436 00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 2: for herself. You know, Sarah, the older one. Imagine having 437 00:23:58,440 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 2: mona talbot, you know. 438 00:23:59,760 --> 00:23:59,960 Speaker 1: Yeah. 439 00:24:00,280 --> 00:24:05,159 Speaker 2: And and Laura's Reuben, who is another Alice Waters person, 440 00:24:06,320 --> 00:24:09,160 Speaker 2: you know, kind of mentor these girls as they grew 441 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:14,440 Speaker 2: up and taught them everything about cooking, and so it's 442 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 2: kind of wonderful. They kind of broke that you know, 443 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:23,160 Speaker 2: I've gotten into it a wonderful place with understanding food 444 00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:32,760 Speaker 2: and seasonal food. Particularly. Yeah, my daughter Sarah loves the 445 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:33,600 Speaker 2: British Bakeoff. 446 00:24:34,119 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: Oh, let's talk about the British Guess what I auditioned 447 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:39,160 Speaker 1: for that And I didn't get the part. Oh my god, 448 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:44,199 Speaker 1: somebody else she was that wasn't critical enough, she. 449 00:24:44,200 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 2: Says, watch. And then what she likes to do is 450 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,240 Speaker 2: in is in the middle of the program, she likes 451 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 2: to make go to the kitchen and make a dessert 452 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:57,000 Speaker 2: and then come back out and then because it's taped, yeah, 453 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,200 Speaker 2: and and and and you know, eat a dessert, you know, 454 00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:02,560 Speaker 2: like you know, she makes these incredible desserts, you know 455 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,680 Speaker 2: that are that are kind of amazing chocolate. 456 00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:08,000 Speaker 1: This and that is that when you're at the art institute. 457 00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:11,840 Speaker 1: Was that when you started doing photography? Because I was 458 00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:13,760 Speaker 1: going to ask you about photography. 459 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 2: As a painting major and took a night class night 460 00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 2: classic photography, and uh and loved it. And you know, 461 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,600 Speaker 2: loved you know, because I was an awkward, undeveloped person 462 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: and you know, developed, not developed, and the photography just 463 00:25:33,960 --> 00:25:36,520 Speaker 2: took you out and socialized you and took you out 464 00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:38,520 Speaker 2: into the world, and I don't know if it's much 465 00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:39,200 Speaker 2: better right now. 466 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: But yeah, no it is. Did you take the photography 467 00:25:42,720 --> 00:25:45,679 Speaker 1: and then continue with that through through school? 468 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,040 Speaker 2: You know, it was the middle of viennam War. Yeah, 469 00:25:49,119 --> 00:25:53,639 Speaker 2: the g I s would come back through San Francisco 470 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:57,119 Speaker 2: and and g I Bill they could go to school. 471 00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,920 Speaker 2: So there were a lot of so you know, met 472 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 2: a lot of photographers who were soldiers and it was 473 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 2: such a difficult time in America. I actually made a 474 00:26:08,000 --> 00:26:10,800 Speaker 2: decision to go to Israel, and. 475 00:26:12,440 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 1: I didn't know if I was going to come back 476 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: as a student or. 477 00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:17,440 Speaker 2: Still as a student. I set up with my own 478 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:20,560 Speaker 2: kind of program where I would go away for a 479 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,199 Speaker 2: semester or a year and then but I ended up 480 00:26:23,240 --> 00:26:27,000 Speaker 2: going back to school. And then within a semester, my 481 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 2: boyfriend drew me down to Rolling Stone Magazine and I 482 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:32,480 Speaker 2: showed them my work and they started. You know, I 483 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 2: didn't eve get a. 484 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: Chance that Rolling Stone started in San Francisco. And then 485 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:39,240 Speaker 1: so you started working with you when I'm at Rolling 486 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:40,960 Speaker 1: Stone in those early days. 487 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,119 Speaker 2: Right, and so thirteen years there, How old were you 488 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 2: probably nineteen twenty? 489 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, So did you finish school? 490 00:26:47,200 --> 00:26:52,399 Speaker 2: And then my father insisted that I finished school and 491 00:26:53,359 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 2: they let me graduate early. I graduated a year early. 492 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,840 Speaker 1: And how did it work at Rolling Stone? Did he 493 00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: would he say, we're going to do a story about 494 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: well they were doing, and you have to take photo 495 00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:05,400 Speaker 1: visuals that they want. 496 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,960 Speaker 2: It was more of a well, they liked the idea 497 00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 2: that I could you know, take photographs and it didn't 498 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 2: look like it was going to cost them very much money, 499 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: you know, and it was it was it was kind 500 00:27:18,560 --> 00:27:21,960 Speaker 2: of a you know, it wasn't just about music, it 501 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:24,119 Speaker 2: was you know, about popular culture. 502 00:27:23,800 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: And political going on. 503 00:27:25,080 --> 00:27:30,399 Speaker 2: And actually my first cover was Jean was Away and 504 00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 2: it was a protest in the middle of San Francisco 505 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:37,920 Speaker 2: and you know, allan is were smoking a joint and 506 00:27:38,720 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 2: you know, and they ran that well, while jan was away, 507 00:27:42,040 --> 00:27:44,200 Speaker 2: they ran it into cover. They wait, Yan went away, 508 00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:46,320 Speaker 2: and they would run things that you know, he didn't 509 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:48,560 Speaker 2: necessarily so he did a cover of Rolling Stone when 510 00:27:48,600 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 2: you were how old, you say, nineteen twenty maybe yeah? 511 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 1: And then what was the heavy days life? And did 512 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: Yon like to eat? Did you guys go out? Was 513 00:27:57,400 --> 00:28:01,760 Speaker 1: food any endportant? They they were very sophisticated that when 514 00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:03,920 Speaker 1: you learned I believe it would be good. That is 515 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,360 Speaker 1: that when you discovered that eating could taste of something good. 516 00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:12,160 Speaker 2: I think just things just tasted better in general, you know, regardless. 517 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: But did you travel, did you experience other cultures? Did 518 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:22,920 Speaker 1: you have other food from other cultures? Great food, Indian food, 519 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:27,239 Speaker 1: Chinese food, Well, in San Francisco you can get all 520 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: of that, you know, Yeah, And so. 521 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 2: What was it like? 522 00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 1: So then you went to New York just going through 523 00:28:32,760 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: the trajectory of your life. You went from San Francisco 524 00:28:35,440 --> 00:28:37,920 Speaker 1: and Rolling Stone to New York to New. 525 00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 2: York and the latest they moved in the latest seventies. 526 00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:43,560 Speaker 2: And I thought I was going to go for a year, yeah, 527 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:47,040 Speaker 2: you know, And I didn't think I And it was 528 00:28:47,120 --> 00:28:49,840 Speaker 2: hard for me to leave California. I loved California so much. 529 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 1: I loved it. Had you been to New York but 530 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:54,160 Speaker 1: you knew it, You're going to a city that you 531 00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:56,560 Speaker 1: vaguely knew or well, they. 532 00:28:56,880 --> 00:28:59,440 Speaker 2: Joan and Jane were very comfortable with New York, but 533 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 2: I it was never that comfortable. I don't think I 534 00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:08,600 Speaker 2: became so comfortable with New York until Susan. You know, 535 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: did you meet to Susan taking her photograph. Yeah, for 536 00:29:13,880 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 2: Aids and his metaphors a book, but she didn't use 537 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 2: it on the book. 538 00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:19,400 Speaker 1: She used it was called it was metaphor. It wasn't 539 00:29:19,400 --> 00:29:20,400 Speaker 1: illness as metaphor. 540 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 2: You're right, it was illness. 541 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: It's an really important but it's important to say it's 542 00:29:26,120 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: the important book for meating that Ellis is a metaphor. Yeah, 543 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: you said that you loved her voice. What was her 544 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 1: voice like or was it the words in the voice 545 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: or was it the voice itself? 546 00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 2: It was probably all together, you know, just you know, 547 00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,400 Speaker 2: you couldn't stay mad at her too long because you know, 548 00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: the way she would say things, it was quite beautiful. 549 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: And so you were in New York with Susan in 550 00:29:52,440 --> 00:29:56,960 Speaker 1: the eighties and this is the eighties, late eighties, you know, 551 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:58,440 Speaker 1: to the late nineties. 552 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, late eighties. I think my real food adventures started, 553 00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 2: like so many other parts of life, meeting incredible people, 554 00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:12,400 Speaker 2: you know, really started with Susan, you know, and and 555 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:19,360 Speaker 2: and and understanding and appreciating the art of good food, 556 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 2: a really really really good food. 557 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:23,440 Speaker 1: And would she would she kind of say to you 558 00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: try this and try that, or she. 559 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 2: Did it, did it, But we never we never liked 560 00:30:33,520 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 2: you know, high end anything. It was it was all 561 00:30:38,000 --> 00:30:41,240 Speaker 2: that was all fake, you know, to us it was 562 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 2: it was more like, you know, when she found a 563 00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,240 Speaker 2: place that she loved, she would returned to it over 564 00:30:46,320 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: and over again, like the River Cafe with Howard you 565 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:53,479 Speaker 2: know so and you know, honest to god, they were 566 00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:57,120 Speaker 2: food snops. She also she did like Chinatown. We would 567 00:30:57,160 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: go down I remember now in New York in the 568 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:02,480 Speaker 2: mornings on Sundays, we would go to the flea market 569 00:31:03,000 --> 00:31:06,240 Speaker 2: and then we would go down to Chinatown and have 570 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 2: them some if. She loved that on Sunday mornings. It 571 00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:09,600 Speaker 2: was beautiful. 572 00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: What was her routine when she was working with writing? 573 00:31:12,440 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: Would she eat at the desk? Would shed a day? Yeah, 574 00:31:16,880 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 1: she would just start writing and stay there. 575 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,640 Speaker 2: Yeah. No, Sometimes she would break away and and and 576 00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:23,280 Speaker 2: at the kitchen table. 577 00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,680 Speaker 1: Do you think that was partly the solitary? Is your 578 00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 1: being a writer? Is that in the evening you want 579 00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: to go out? That having been insane totally that she. 580 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,960 Speaker 2: She You know, it drove me crazy because I would 581 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:40,000 Speaker 2: be if I was out, I was usually working all 582 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:42,280 Speaker 2: day and then I came home and want to go out, 583 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,280 Speaker 2: and she would want to. I mean we didn't literally 584 00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 2: live together. We had two apartments in the same building. 585 00:31:49,880 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 2: But you know, she she always wanted to go out. 586 00:31:52,360 --> 00:31:54,920 Speaker 2: It was because of you know, she would work all 587 00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:58,640 Speaker 2: day long and a lot. It wasn't easy for her 588 00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 2: to write. I mean some write like she would gets 589 00:32:00,920 --> 00:32:05,440 Speaker 2: so mad about Larry McNulty. You know, you know that 590 00:32:05,560 --> 00:32:07,560 Speaker 2: he could like write eleven pages in the morning and 591 00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 2: then you know, go off and she it was all 592 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 2: emotional writing for her. So I think she really saw 593 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 2: going out to dinner as a release. Release definitely a release, 594 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: a way to you know, reward herself at the end 595 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:21,040 Speaker 2: of the day. 596 00:32:21,640 --> 00:32:24,560 Speaker 1: Did she drink good wine? Did she care about wine? Yeah? 597 00:32:25,320 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 1: I think that the it's very similar to but it's 598 00:32:30,120 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: like the artists of the you know that those the 599 00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:35,640 Speaker 1: sort of seventies and eighties in Maxis, Kansas City and 600 00:32:36,400 --> 00:32:39,280 Speaker 1: working painting all day and then going out at night. 601 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,000 Speaker 1: You know, whereas the work that you do and the 602 00:32:42,080 --> 00:32:45,160 Speaker 1: work that I do and work there was filmmakers do. 603 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:49,280 Speaker 1: It's very collaborative. There's a team, there's people, there's all that, 604 00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:51,200 Speaker 1: and so when you come home from that you just 605 00:32:51,280 --> 00:32:54,200 Speaker 1: want to probably do little, whereas if you're sitting in 606 00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,040 Speaker 1: front of a typewriter or a computer. 607 00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: Then yeah, it was hard for me, for me to 608 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,480 Speaker 2: for me to go out, but I I but it 609 00:33:02,640 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: was great, It was great. I enjoyed her enjoying it. 610 00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 2: The reward, you know, at the end of the day, 611 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 2: after you work, you know, to to go out. And 612 00:33:13,640 --> 00:33:16,040 Speaker 2: I was thinking about here in England. I was trying 613 00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 2: to remember the shoots and I was thinking, like, for example, 614 00:33:20,040 --> 00:33:24,720 Speaker 2: working with Nicole Kimmen in Charleston, photographing there and what 615 00:33:24,920 --> 00:33:25,040 Speaker 2: was that? 616 00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,520 Speaker 1: What was that for? What was it you were photographing probably. 617 00:33:28,320 --> 00:33:31,200 Speaker 2: For probably for Vogue and she was on eyes wide 618 00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 2: shut and you know, to to finish the day and 619 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,959 Speaker 2: then be able to come to you know, sometimes Susan 620 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 2: would accompany on some of those trips and she would 621 00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:48,440 Speaker 2: stay at the Cannock. She just knew the you know 622 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,200 Speaker 2: the best. 623 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,560 Speaker 1: Graydon Carter, he's here, you know, I saw him last night, 624 00:33:53,400 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 1: see a lot of great when he's here. Say hello, 625 00:33:55,800 --> 00:33:59,640 Speaker 1: Well he said, he just come for Thanksgiving. But he 626 00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 1: said you when you did a photo shoot that you 627 00:34:02,920 --> 00:34:07,360 Speaker 1: always fed people who were working very very well. Do 628 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,640 Speaker 1: you do you do you believe in giving? Is that 629 00:34:09,800 --> 00:34:11,759 Speaker 1: something that you care about is making sure that the 630 00:34:11,840 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: people who are. 631 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 2: I think we have we have. I mean usually it 632 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,239 Speaker 2: goes over several hours, so we want to make sure 633 00:34:19,400 --> 00:34:24,279 Speaker 2: everyone's you know, eating well. I don't know. I don't 634 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 2: think twice of it. Yeah. 635 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,480 Speaker 1: No, he said it was unique anyway that he thought 636 00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:29,280 Speaker 1: you're concerned. 637 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:32,759 Speaker 2: Talking to Katherine McLeod and she we were talking because 638 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:36,399 Speaker 2: I was asking about food experiences while working, and she said, 639 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,920 Speaker 2: like in La we built a chef and food in 640 00:34:42,160 --> 00:34:45,600 Speaker 2: you know, in the studios there, you know, and had Yeah. No, 641 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:47,239 Speaker 2: I do believe in Yeah. 642 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:48,600 Speaker 1: Do you eat when you're working? 643 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,960 Speaker 2: How do you? I'm careful. I'd like to eat right 644 00:34:52,040 --> 00:34:52,960 Speaker 2: after I yeah. 645 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like making a movie or theater. People always 646 00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,640 Speaker 1: want to eat after the play rather than. 647 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:03,040 Speaker 2: You have all those restaurants around those Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 648 00:35:04,239 --> 00:35:05,040 Speaker 1: What are you doing now? 649 00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:09,120 Speaker 2: What are your what are you? I'm on the road 650 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:12,880 Speaker 2: with talking about the women's book. I know I'm headed 651 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:19,680 Speaker 2: back to to more portraiture and stories and excited about 652 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:24,800 Speaker 2: what's happening in some politics right now. The governor of California, 653 00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:28,480 Speaker 2: the women who won all. 654 00:35:28,360 --> 00:35:32,520 Speaker 1: These great Stitts, and a mayor of New York and 655 00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:33,399 Speaker 1: the mayor of New York. 656 00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:38,520 Speaker 2: So I'm interested in in in doing work and you know, 657 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:40,759 Speaker 2: along those lines when I get back and I'm sort 658 00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:44,800 Speaker 2: of making my lists about, you know how, who I 659 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 2: want to photograph. 660 00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:47,960 Speaker 1: So before we go, we have one last question, which 661 00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:51,920 Speaker 1: is that a food is you know, a memory for 662 00:35:52,000 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: you of your of your mother's chicken liver, and it's 663 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:58,880 Speaker 1: it's it's something that you you have on the shoot 664 00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,880 Speaker 1: so you work or you alleviate hungary. It's also comfort. 665 00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:05,680 Speaker 1: So if you come home nights, or you've had a 666 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: hard day, or you want to go out and have 667 00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: something that will just give you comfort. Is there a 668 00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: food that you would reach for? 669 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 2: Hmm. 670 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:16,960 Speaker 1: It can be a peanut butter sandwich, you can. 671 00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 2: I do love peanut butter and jelly. I mean, you know, 672 00:36:20,040 --> 00:36:23,160 Speaker 2: from from from having the children and having you know, 673 00:36:23,239 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 2: when you go on the plane. Now there's no there's 674 00:36:25,239 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 2: really not any very good food. So I used to 675 00:36:28,840 --> 00:36:31,160 Speaker 2: pack peanut butter and jelly sandwiches for them, and then 676 00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 2: I would eat them too because I love them. I 677 00:36:32,880 --> 00:36:34,919 Speaker 2: actually I did love peanut butter and jelly. It's true. 678 00:36:35,320 --> 00:36:38,040 Speaker 1: I know that I've reached sometimes for but I've had 679 00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:40,680 Speaker 1: a bad day, I'll want some pasta because it kind 680 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: of I love comfort, you. 681 00:36:42,920 --> 00:36:44,560 Speaker 2: Know, when I'm when I'm alone in the house and 682 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,800 Speaker 2: the cooks off or whatever, you know, I'll boil a 683 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:48,640 Speaker 2: couple of hot dogs. 684 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,120 Speaker 1: Okay, thank you, Annie, Let's go have some food. Thank you. 685 00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:53,640 Speaker 2: I love it. 686 00:36:57,600 --> 00:37:00,880 Speaker 1: Ruthie's Table for was produced by Alex Bow, Robbie Hamilton, 687 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,960 Speaker 1: and Zad Rogers, with Andrew Sang, Daniel Naranjo Rodriguez and 688 00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:08,600 Speaker 1: Bella Selini. This has been an atomized production for iHeartMedia.