Speaker 1: Welcome to Before Breakfast, a production of iHeartRadio. Good Morning.
Speaker 1: This is Laura. Welcome to the Before Breakfast podcast. Today's
Speaker 1: episode is going to be a longer one part of
Speaker 1: the series where I interview fascinating people about how they
Speaker 1: take their days from great to awesome and any advice
Speaker 1: they have for the rest of us. So today I
Speaker 1: am delighted to welcome Cassie Holmes to the show. Cassie's
Speaker 1: a professor at UCLA's Anderson School of Management. She is
Speaker 1: also the author of the book Happier Hour. So, Cassie,
Speaker 1: welcome to the show.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much, Laura. I' it's a treat to join you.
Speaker 1: Well, I am so excited to have you as well.
Speaker 1: Why don't you tell our listeners a little bit more
Speaker 1: about yourself.
Speaker 2: Yeah, So, I am currently a professor at UCLA in
Speaker 2: the Business School, and I stay currently because I started
Speaker 2: my career as a professor back in Philly where to
Speaker 2: you geographically, But throughout my career I've been studying happiness
Speaker 2: and looking at what's the role of time and how
Speaker 2: does that play into things? And the last no offense
Speaker 2: to us academics, but nobody reads their academic papers and
Speaker 2: so about six years ago I was like, well, gosh,
Speaker 2: there's actually a lot of insight from the research, not
Speaker 2: just my own, but from across the field. So I
Speaker 2: decided to pull it together and develop a course that
Speaker 2: I've been teaching to our MBAs and executive MBAs at
Speaker 2: UCLA called Applying the Science of Happiness to Life Design.
Speaker 2: And when I saw the impact on my students, both
Speaker 2: how they you know, their happiness and satisfaction and fulfillment
Speaker 2: during the course, but also hearing from them years following
Speaker 2: the course, I was like, oh, my gosh, this is
Speaker 2: really exciting. And then when I was approached to write
Speaker 2: a book, I was like, yes, because then more people
Speaker 2: who gets it in my done week course can gain
Speaker 2: from the learnings. And so I wrote Happier Hour, which
Speaker 2: came out a couple of years ago, which is sort
Speaker 2: of captures both the research as well as the assignments
Speaker 2: that I give my students, some of which are very
Speaker 2: much like those that you encourage in your work, Laura,
Speaker 2: and so folks can sort of have some tools to
Speaker 2: beat distraction, expand their time, and focus on what matters most.
Speaker 2: I love it.
Speaker 1: Those are all things we are very excited about here.
Speaker 1: On this show, and I will confess that I've actually
Speaker 1: read some of your papers, Cassie, so you and like
Speaker 1: three others exactly exactly.
Speaker 2: But I want to.
Speaker 1: Talk a little bit about some of your research because
Speaker 1: I think a lot of it is very fascinating and
Speaker 1: does have practical implications for people. So a couple of them.
Speaker 1: Just I pulled out a of happier hour that I
Speaker 1: think would be really helpful for people. One of my
Speaker 1: favorite ones is about treating our weekends like a vacation,
Speaker 1: So talk about that. What does that mean and why
Speaker 1: is that a new mindset that people might want to adopt.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's I love this work because it is so
Speaker 2: easy to implement and I continue to and it sounds
Speaker 2: like others do as well. And so it was actually
Speaker 2: sort of spurred out of the research that shows that
Speaker 2: taking vacation is so important for creativity and even satisfaction
Speaker 2: and engagement at work. But so often people don't take
Speaker 2: vacation because they don't feel like they have the time,
Speaker 2: more the money, while they absolutely should and it is
Speaker 2: something to devote time to. And even in the Gallup data,
Speaker 2: the people's responses to whether they prioritize time for vacation.
Speaker 2: It is a has a very strong relationship with satisfaction
Speaker 2: in life and enjoyment. But given that we don't always
Speaker 2: feel like we can take the time, we were actually like, well,
Speaker 2: what if we actually made more of the time off
Speaker 2: from work that we do have? Like every week most
Speaker 2: Americans get the weekends quote unquote off from work, but
Speaker 2: it doesn't feel like the break that it maybe should.
Speaker 2: And so we ran experiments that showed this effect. So
Speaker 2: in the experiment, we randomly assigned and it was among
Speaker 2: full time American workers on a regular Friday leading into
Speaker 2: a regular weekend. We gave some these set of instructions
Speaker 2: treat this weekend like a vacation, and then we told
Speaker 2: others treat this weekend like a regular weekend. That is it,
Speaker 2: that is like as simple as it is. And then
Speaker 2: on Monday morning, when they were back at work, we
Speaker 2: followed up and we measured their happiness again. And what
Speaker 2: we found that those who were instructed simply to treat
Speaker 2: their weekends like a vacation and were significantly happier when
Speaker 2: they were back at work on Monday, not only that
Speaker 2: they enjoyed the weekends more. And then we're like, well,
Speaker 2: why like, why is it that just telling someone to
Speaker 2: treat the weekend like a vacation or individuals telling themselves
Speaker 2: to treat the weekend like a vacation versus regular weekend.
Speaker 2: And what we found was that there were some shifts
Speaker 2: in how people spent their time. So people did do
Speaker 2: a little bit less work or housework, they spent more
Speaker 2: time in bed and eating, like you know, is reflective
Speaker 2: vacation as well, right, But what was really interesting was
Speaker 2: that it wasn't those changes in the activities people spent
Speaker 2: their time on that actually predicted their enjoyment or even
Speaker 2: their happiness on Monday. What did was their mindset. Those
Speaker 2: who were treating the weekend like a vacation were more
Speaker 2: focused on the present moment. They were more mentally engaged
Speaker 2: in the activities they were doing. And what I think
Speaker 2: is dry is that that sort of doing mode that
Speaker 2: propels us through the week of like getting tasks done,
Speaker 2: checking them off the list, then carries over into the weekend.
Speaker 2: So then even if we're doing like social activities or
Speaker 2: going to your kids' soccer game, it's still a task
Speaker 2: that you're moving through and checking it off the list.
Speaker 2: But when you're treating it like a vacation. What that
Speaker 2: does is it shifts you out of that doing mode
Speaker 2: and allows you just to be. You know, it gives
Speaker 2: you that sense of like, you know what, Yes, you
Speaker 2: might be at the soccer field for your kids game,
Speaker 2: but it's not about a task that you're getting done.
Speaker 2: You're like, oh my god, here I am sitting outside,
Speaker 2: Folks are around me cheering from my kid. Like just
Speaker 2: that vacation mindset licenses you to just take a break
Speaker 2: and chill out and be in the moment. And it's
Speaker 2: interesting because even like digging into the data we saw,
Speaker 2: we ask people to in one of this studies to
Speaker 2: like reconstruct tell us what they did sort of at
Speaker 2: each part of the weekend. And in both conditions, the
Speaker 2: vacation condition and the regular weekend condition, there were moms
Speaker 2: that were had cooked pancakes for their family on Saturday morning,
Speaker 2: but the way they described it was so different that
Speaker 2: in the regular weekend was like, and I made pancakes
Speaker 2: for my family, it was like absolutely a task. The
Speaker 2: other mom and the one who is treating it like
Speaker 2: a vacation, she's like, and we have pancakes for breakfast,
Speaker 2: and we all sat down and it was just like
Speaker 2: just like we're on vacation, which again that same activity
Speaker 2: is experienced very differently when you're treating it like a vacation.
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, fascinating stuff, in a very practical thing for
Speaker 1: people to try this weekend. In fact, we're going to
Speaker 1: take a quick ad break and then I will be
Speaker 1: back with more from Cassie homes.
Speaker 2: Well.
Speaker 1: I am back with Cassie Holmes, who is a professor
Speaker 1: at UCLA's Anderson's School of Management, which she's taught a
Speaker 1: very popular class on happiness. She is also the author
Speaker 1: of the book Happier Hour. So we're going through some
Speaker 1: of you know, the greatest hits on the research here, Cassie.
Speaker 1: Another one of my favorite ones that you talk about
Speaker 1: in Happier Hour. You had a study where you had
Speaker 1: some people help students edit essays, and you had other
Speaker 1: people get a windfall of free time, like they were
Speaker 1: just allowed to leave without doing whatever experiment they had
Speaker 1: come in to do. Right, And I believe you found
Speaker 1: some counterintuitive result about how busy or how much time
Speaker 1: people felt they had with these two separate conditions. So
Speaker 1: maybe you could talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it's so important particularly for your
Speaker 2: listeners who I'm sure feel very time poor, like they
Speaker 2: don't have enough hours in the day to get at
Speaker 2: all done. And when we feel that way, one of
Speaker 2: the consequences is that we don't spend the time to
Speaker 2: help others out right there is when we feel like
Speaker 2: we're busy and in such a hurry, we don't take
Speaker 2: the time to help others. But in this work, we
Speaker 2: found that actually giving time can give us a sense
Speaker 2: of having more time, which is counterintuitive. Why does it happen? Well, then,
Speaker 2: the study that you example showed for example, or talked about,
Speaker 2: is that we had some people give their time to
Speaker 2: help someone by editing their essay. Others got a windfall
Speaker 2: of time. And in other studies we had them not
Speaker 2: only get a windfall of time, but also compared it
Speaker 2: to like spending time on themselves, so spending time on
Speaker 2: someone else spending time on yourself. And we found that
Speaker 2: those who spend time on someone else felt like they
Speaker 2: had more time. And the reason is because it increased
Speaker 2: their sense of self efficacy. That is, like when we
Speaker 2: help someone out, like oh my gosh, I accomplished a lot,
Speaker 2: it was only five minutes or fifteen minutes and in
Speaker 2: some cases thirty minutes, but like, I accomplished a lot
Speaker 2: with that time, and then it increases your sense of
Speaker 2: how much you can accomplish with your time, more generally,
Speaker 2: giving you a sense that you have sufficient time to
Speaker 2: accomplish what you set out to do. Because time poverty
Speaker 2: is a subjective feeling. It is how confident you feel
Speaker 2: like you are able to complete those tasks that you
Speaker 2: set out to do. And by increasing your sense of
Speaker 2: accomplishment and efficacy and confidence that you can complete your task,
Speaker 2: it lessens that sense of constraint from time. Now, I
Speaker 2: will say a couple of caveats is if you give
Speaker 2: away so much of your time that you really have
Speaker 2: like none left, then I don't think it's going to
Speaker 2: have this effect. Like in there is research that shows
Speaker 2: that you know, long term caregivers feel very depleted and
Speaker 2: lower sense of satisfaction because their time is not their own,
Speaker 2: or if that time is taken from you, not that
Speaker 2: it's given. I also don't think you'll have this effect.
Speaker 2: It's really the sense of spending your time on something
Speaker 2: that makes you feel like you've accomplished a lot, and
Speaker 2: that translates into feeling like I have more time more recently.
Speaker 2: Exactly along with that mechanism, my uh I ran a
Speaker 2: study where we showed that the same thing happened with exercise.
Speaker 2: So exercise is one of those things that we are
Speaker 2: very quick to neglect when we don't feel like we
Speaker 2: have a lot of time. But in a study that
Speaker 2: we ran among my MBAs, we had them as one
Speaker 2: of the class assignments. One week was to exercise because
Speaker 2: that is a significant mood booster, and sother to carve
Speaker 2: out time to exercise. And then what we did it
Speaker 2: was we measured their sense of time poverty, or how
Speaker 2: much time they felt like they had either before the
Speaker 2: exercise or after the exercise. And what we found was
Speaker 2: that after exercising, people felt like they had significantly more
Speaker 2: time than before exercising because what the exercise did is
Speaker 2: it was like, oh my gosh. It gave them the
Speaker 2: sense like I have accomplished something and gives the greater
Speaker 2: confidence in how you much you can accomplish with your
Speaker 2: subsequent day. So I think these are both helpful sort
Speaker 2: of things to keep in mind that when we feel
Speaker 2: time poor, we do neglect these activities that really fuel us, right,
Speaker 2: fuel us give us that energy exercise really sort of
Speaker 2: being kind to and doing something for another person. And
Speaker 2: yet even though we are tend to sort of neglect them,
Speaker 2: if we go ahead and spend time on these particular
Speaker 2: activities that really increase our sense of confidence and accomplishment,
Speaker 2: that can lessen our sense of time stream. Absolutely.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say that, you know, people who do
Speaker 1: a lot with their time often feel like they can
Speaker 1: do a lot with their done. I mean, because the
Speaker 1: evidence is there they have, you know, So it's really
Speaker 1: a self reinforcing cycle. And just one more because I
Speaker 1: think this was also a good one too. It's about
Speaker 1: making time feel more more precious by calculating how much
Speaker 1: is left and that often we can have a different
Speaker 1: mindset on it everyday activity by realizing how close to
Speaker 1: the end of it we might be.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think this is really important coming out
Speaker 2: of my research where we found that there's extraordinary happiness
Speaker 2: available to us in ordinary moments, but so often we
Speaker 2: sort of miss those moments that are right there in
Speaker 2: our days and how we're spending our time already because
Speaker 2: of headonic adaptation, right, that is our propensity to get
Speaker 2: used to things over time. So when you are doing
Speaker 2: the same thing again and again you're with the same person,
Speaker 2: they stop having as intensive an emotional effect on us.
Speaker 2: And so it's good that we're adaptive in the face
Speaker 2: of negative circumstances, but recognizing that we also adapt and
Speaker 2: don't notice those the good stuff, we have to figure
Speaker 2: out ways to offset that tendency so we can continue
Speaker 2: to feel joy from life's choice. So one way to
Speaker 2: do that is to count your time's left. Because just
Speaker 2: because it's an everyday type experience now, it doesn't mean
Speaker 2: that it's going to continue to happen every day, and
Speaker 2: certainly not like it does now. And so an example
Speaker 2: that I have shared is my coffee dates with my daughter.
Speaker 2: So this is a weekly we've been going on our
Speaker 2: weekly coffee dates since whatever I want coffee on the
Speaker 2: way of dropping out or preschool. And now it's like
Speaker 2: a half hour where the two of us spend together.
Speaker 2: You know, she has her hot chocolate, I have my
Speaker 2: flat white croissants and it's just the two of us
Speaker 2: chatting for a half hour. Now, she's nine, while we'd
Speaker 2: have our weekly coffee dates. Now, when she turns twelve,
Speaker 2: I suspect she'll probably want to go to the coffee
Speaker 2: shop with her friends instead of me, So it's not
Speaker 2: going to happen every week, you know. And then she's
Speaker 2: going to go off to college and then she's gonna
Speaker 2: move to New York or whatever it is. And so
Speaker 2: I did this calculation of calculating of our total times
Speaker 2: of going on coffee dates what percentage is left, realizing
Speaker 2: that we have about thirty six percent of our coffee
Speaker 2: dates left and that's much less than half. What that
Speaker 2: does recog and she's only nine years old, right. What
Speaker 2: that does is it motivates me to make the time
Speaker 2: to in those busy weeks, to make sure I make
Speaker 2: the time. But as importantly is it makes me pay
Speaker 2: attention because knowing that these times are limited makes me
Speaker 2: put my phone away. So that's source of distraction or
Speaker 2: also what you know, my constant to do list that's
Speaker 2: running in my head, Like I was like, oh, what's next,
Speaker 2: what do I need to But like, since I know
Speaker 2: that there's so few left, or that they are in
Speaker 2: fact limited, it totally makes me pay attention because this
Speaker 2: is the time that matters. And so I have, like
Speaker 2: in I've had by students calculate times left and some
Speaker 2: of the things they've calculated, like dinner with their parents,
Speaker 2: or taking their dog for a walk, or you know,
Speaker 2: having dinner with their family, their kids, you know, around
Speaker 2: the table, and recognizing that these things that are just
Speaker 2: the fabric of our lives are precious. It makes us
Speaker 2: show up fully and fully, and it totally makes us
Speaker 2: pay attention and get experience the joy that is available
Speaker 2: to us in that time already.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, so much of life is just about paying attention
Speaker 1: to what is there, to the good things that are
Speaker 1: already surrounding us. We're going to take one more quick
Speaker 1: ad break and then I will be back with more
Speaker 1: from Cassie Homes. Well, I am back with Cassie Holmes.
Speaker 1: We've been talking about research on ways to be happier
Speaker 1: in our everyday lives. So you know, this is a
Speaker 1: time management and productivity podcast, Cassie, so I'm very curious
Speaker 1: if you have any routines in your day that help
Speaker 1: you be more effective.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, we've already talked about mindset and actually the
Speaker 2: of exercise. So one of the things that I and
Speaker 2: I keep having to turn bind myself and experience the
Speaker 2: benefits of it is starting the day instead of picking
Speaker 2: up my phone and sort of responding to emails is like,
Speaker 2: you know, getting my sneakers on and going out for
Speaker 2: my morning run, because that time that I dedicate to
Speaker 2: myself I have is the thinking. It sort of absolutely
Speaker 2: shifts my approach to the rest of the day. Even
Speaker 2: though I'm like, oh my god, do I have time? Well,
Speaker 2: when I do it at the first thing in the day,
Speaker 2: it absolutely makes me feel like I have more time
Speaker 2: and it sets my mode for the rest of the week.
Speaker 2: And another thing is so protecting that time for exercise
Speaker 2: and for me early morning is key. Another thing is
Speaker 2: carving out the time and putting my fun away, closing
Speaker 2: out of email for that those work chunks where I
Speaker 2: really need want to dig into the part of my
Speaker 2: work that is so important to me, that's in line
Speaker 2: with my purpose, that requires deep thinking. It's not just
Speaker 2: reacting to emails. It is like where I actually need
Speaker 2: to think, and I protect the time in my calendar
Speaker 2: and I protect my physical space to not have the
Speaker 2: interruptions so that I can get into those flow states.
Speaker 2: And that is when we are in those flow states
Speaker 2: where most creative, most productive, and when we come out
Speaker 2: of it, we feel so great. And what's really sort
Speaker 2: of a theme around all of my work is that
Speaker 2: you know, it's not about how much time, it's really
Speaker 2: about the quality of the time, and so making the
Speaker 2: quality of that time for that important work, protecting it
Speaker 2: so that I can I can sort of enjoy it
Speaker 2: and make the most of it, because the rest of
Speaker 2: the work day is filled with stuff, right like the
Speaker 2: email that's warning the meetings. But this at least make
Speaker 2: sure that I feel like I have been productive, that
Speaker 2: I am sort of making a progress towards the things
Speaker 2: that really matter to me.
Speaker 1: Do you tend to do that first thing when you
Speaker 1: come into the officers at a particular time of day
Speaker 1: that you protect I'm curious how you do Yeah.
Speaker 2: For me, it is in the morning, so it is
Speaker 2: my exercise and then I get ready, you know, like,
Speaker 2: and then I go dressed, and then I start off
Speaker 2: the day and I have that first three hours. And
Speaker 2: I can't do this every day because there are other
Speaker 2: days where I do have actually meetings. But I know
Speaker 2: that I'm a morning person. I know that that is
Speaker 2: when my mind is working at its best. But the
Speaker 2: research shows that some people are actually night owls. So
Speaker 2: I think the thing that's most important is for folks
Speaker 2: to identify when within their schedule can they actually protect
Speaker 2: the time and not getting those distractions, but also hopeful
Speaker 2: aligning it when your brain is most on and it's
Speaker 2: sort of fitting with the energy that you have for
Speaker 2: that particular task. I mean, you know, my other times
Speaker 2: that I want to be super engaged, like my date
Speaker 2: you know with my daughter Alita, I don't want it
Speaker 2: on Monday morning because I'm in the sort of go
Speaker 2: mode and productivity mode. And so it's actually for those
Speaker 2: it's more important to me, I like sort of particularly
Speaker 2: place it in a morning and a time that I
Speaker 2: actually do feel like I will be more likely to
Speaker 2: settle in and down. And so it's now it's on
Speaker 2: a weekend morning. I used to be on Thursday mornings.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but it's all about knowing your schedule and knowing
Speaker 1: yourself and making proactive choices about where you put these
Speaker 1: things totally.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's like we don't have control over all
Speaker 2: of our time, but just for those things that are
Speaker 2: really important is being very thoughtful and intentional and protecting
Speaker 2: that time because other stuff will still in right. It's
Speaker 2: like for me, the afternoons are.
Speaker 1: Like Beanil is always there and I'm sure there's always
Speaker 1: students who have something that they want, so yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well.
Speaker 1: One thing I always ask guests on this show is what,
Speaker 1: what's something you've done recently to take a day from
Speaker 1: great to awesome.
Speaker 2: I'm like embarrassed to share this.
Speaker 1: But it's probably beans it's gonna be good.
Speaker 2: I have started doing tennis lessons on There's day warning,
Speaker 2: and I literally like start my work day an hour later.
Speaker 2: But it is so fun. It makes me like it
Speaker 2: is so fun and it is an activity that is
Speaker 2: the only reason I'm doing it is because it's fun.
Speaker 2: And then it forces me into the flow day. I'm
Speaker 2: like learning a skill, I'm moving that exercise, Like all
Speaker 2: of these outside all of these components make it like
Speaker 2: I feel guilty because I'm like embarrassed to share it
Speaker 2: because I'm like, oh no, it's something that is just
Speaker 2: for fun and just for me, but it has made
Speaker 2: me so joyful. And then when I show up to work,
Speaker 2: I'm like I'm ready, you know, and I'm much nicer
Speaker 2: and kinder and more proactive to my colleagues so they benefit.
Speaker 2: And then when I'm like home at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, the kids, I'm like, oh, my gosh. You know,
Speaker 2: here we are investing in their skill development and all
Speaker 2: these fun enriching activities. I'm like, you know what, I'm
Speaker 2: gonna invest in my time exactly. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What are the things we often talk about on the
Speaker 1: show about a you know, it take one night for you,
Speaker 1: but it could be one early morning for you as well.
Speaker 1: But to do something that's not work, it's not taking
Speaker 1: care of family, it's something that's uniquely for you and
Speaker 1: that you find intrinsically enjoyable, and it changes your whole life,
Speaker 1: Like totally, what's a week? That's all it has to be.
Speaker 1: It just it changes everything about it. So, Cassie, what's
Speaker 1: something you are looking forward to right now?
Speaker 2: I am looking forward to. Uh, well, I have mixed emotions.
Speaker 2: I think I was mentioning to you. My son is
Speaker 2: graduating from his elementary school, and I am looking forward
Speaker 2: to the opportunity to sort of celebrate him with these
Speaker 2: kids that he's been in school with since they were
Speaker 2: like four, you know. So it's this it's a it's
Speaker 2: an occasion around time of how much they've grown and
Speaker 2: a celebration of the time we've had together and also
Speaker 2: a sort of reminder of The Bitter Sweet is like,
Speaker 2: you know, when he starts middle school, he will wave
Speaker 2: at me goodbye and I will be less involved in
Speaker 2: the campus. But it's it's the sort of transition of
Speaker 2: growth as well as celebration of the time that we've had.
Speaker 1: Absolutely well, I'm sure it'll be amazing. So Cassie, where
Speaker 1: can people find you?
Speaker 2: Well? My web site, cassiem Holmes. I am on LinkedIn.
Speaker 2: I am not on other social media because I don't
Speaker 2: enjoy it, so I don't spend my time there to
Speaker 2: make sure.
Speaker 1: We have happier hours by not doing them. Absolutely absolutely well, Cassie,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us. Thank you to
Speaker 1: everyone for listening. If you have feedback about this or
Speaker 1: any other episode, you can always reach me at Laura
Speaker 1: at Laura vandercam dot com. In the meantime, this is Laura.
Speaker 1: Thanks for listening, and here's to making the most of
Speaker 1: our time. Thanks for listening to Before Breakfast. If you've
Speaker 1: got questions, ideas, or feedback, you can reach me at
Speaker 1: Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. Before Breakfast is a
Speaker 1: production of iHeartMedia. For more podcasts from iHeartMedia, please visit
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