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Speaker 1: Hey wan to welcome in. I'm Doug Gottlieb is all fall.

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Speaker 1: We got a lot to get to on the show.

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Speaker 1: We're focusing on Nil this week. And you heard my

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Speaker 1: previous pod and kind of describing some of the inner

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Speaker 1: workings of how this all goes, because you know, everyone

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Speaker 1: throws out these numbers, you know, since dropping my pod,

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Speaker 1: I have other kind of coaches and agents and people

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Speaker 1: calling me telling me, hey, did you know that, for example,

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Speaker 1: Star Player All American Player was said to be making

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Speaker 1: six hundred thousand last year really made.

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Speaker 2: Two hundred thousand last year.

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Speaker 1: And what's happened on this market is a myriad of things.

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Speaker 1: But because it's just basically an illegit ship and market

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Speaker 1: in many ways, right, and that no one knows what

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Speaker 1: anybody's actually making. And yes there are some absolute winners financially,

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Speaker 1: but kids are sacrificing in many ways the relationship that

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Speaker 1: they have built over years at their current schools to

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Speaker 1: chase check, which isn't nearly as sizable as they think,

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Speaker 1: and oftentimes there's left with kind of bitter feelings.

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Speaker 2: So there's a lot to it.

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Speaker 1: And I thought i'd bring on Darren Heidner, who I'll

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Speaker 1: have him describe all the things he does, but he

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Speaker 1: actually represents many of the biggest and brightest stars in

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Speaker 1: this nil landscape, and we'll get his perspective on how

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Speaker 1: it all works and how it can be cleaned up

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Speaker 1: and fixed up. I think it's definitely worthy of a conversation.

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Speaker 1: In regards to the NBA Playoffs, which we're seeing kind

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Speaker 1: of play out now through the first round, it does

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Speaker 1: feel like because there's you know, the only huge upset

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Speaker 1: I guess in terms of steating wise, would be the

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Speaker 1: Lakers over the Grizzlies. And you know, if we're honest,

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Speaker 1: Game four was an incredibly hard fought game.

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Speaker 2: It's a great basketball game. To just just break it down,

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Speaker 2: you know.

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Speaker 1: That's the only upset, which should give us a really

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Speaker 1: remarkable second round of the playoffs. You know, conference, my

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Speaker 1: final should be incredible, especially if you have you know, Lakers, Warriors, Nuggets,

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Speaker 1: and Sons in the West, Like wow, would that be great?

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Speaker 1: And then you know in the East you get six Ers.

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Speaker 1: Obviously they are already advanced. And I think the Nets,

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Speaker 1: we knew that's who the Nets really were because most

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Speaker 1: of their record was because they had Kyrie and KD

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Speaker 1: and a completely different team. And look, they played hard

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Speaker 1: and it's a nice story, but they weren't at the

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Speaker 1: level of these other teams. And if the Celtics can

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Speaker 1: close what you'd expect them to do, you'd have Celtics

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Speaker 1: and Sixers as well as you know, we'll see what happens.

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Speaker 1: The upset would be the Heat with the Box and

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Speaker 1: you know, Giannis's injury dramatically changed this series. And then

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Speaker 1: Jimmy Butler pulls out an all timer, right, simply an

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Speaker 1: all timer, and then we get have Heat and Knicks.

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Speaker 1: Are you kidding me? And here's something interesting, you know,

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Speaker 1: the Knicks and the Lakers being relevant. I don't think

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Speaker 1: either's a championship caliber team. I could be right with

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Speaker 1: the Lakers. I mean, Anthony Davis is clearly a superstar.

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Speaker 1: Lebron still has, you know, that ability to turn it

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Speaker 1: on at key moments, even though obviously his body at

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Speaker 1: times just fights him on how long he can be

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Speaker 1: out there. And he's affectiveness defensively, Let's say this about

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Speaker 1: Lebron here, what's impressive? And you have people that they

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Speaker 1: just they so badly want Lebron to be the greatest

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Speaker 1: ever that they want to look past some of the

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Speaker 1: things he can't do anymore. And then when you say

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Speaker 1: he can't do that, and you're like, well, it's because

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Speaker 1: he's thirty thirty with thirty eight years old, Like, okay,

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Speaker 1: I'm willing to admit that. To me, what's impressive is

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Speaker 1: can you find a way to be really, really effective

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Speaker 1: and hide your weaknesses as much as possible. And the

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Speaker 1: perfect example is taking two charges, like Lebron is not.

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Speaker 1: You know, he can still chase down block, but he's

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Speaker 1: not he's never been really a rim protector, and especially

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Speaker 1: not now, but using your brain and your toughness and

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Speaker 1: taking a big charge in a huge game that's basketball

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Speaker 1: like and uh and And honestly, for the most part,

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Speaker 1: I thought he did a good job of you know,

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Speaker 1: driving and kicking within the confines of the offense. And

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Speaker 1: he's doing a better job of not holding the ball

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Speaker 1: as much like Lebron. I've heard people say, you know,

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Speaker 1: no matter what system he's in, it's Lebron's system, which

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Speaker 1: which is true. The truth to it is he grew

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Speaker 1: up playing and starred in an era where you can

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Speaker 1: still get the ball and when you get a mismatch,

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Speaker 1: stare it down. Figure it out and the reads were

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Speaker 1: really clean and really easy because he would take it

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Speaker 1: just a tick or a second or two. You know,

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Speaker 1: when you get it an ISO and decide what do

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Speaker 1: you want to do based upon reading the defense. This

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Speaker 1: era of the NBA still has some of that, but

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Speaker 1: most of it is, Hey, you're trying to move it

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Speaker 1: side to side and get the defense not just into

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Speaker 1: a switch but into a rotation that that is that

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Speaker 1: is suboptimal for them. And when you do it, now

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Speaker 1: you can attack, and of course you got shooters spaced

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Speaker 1: in specific areas away. I think he's doing a better

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Speaker 1: job of moving without the basketball and being more a

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Speaker 1: part of an overall scheme. Offensively, he's still kind of

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Speaker 1: overreliant on shooting jump shots because he doesn't have the

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Speaker 1: burst he used to. He did get to the rim twice, obviously,

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Speaker 1: you know, people are well.

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Speaker 2: He drove to his left.

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Speaker 1: I mean that it kind of looked like he's dribbling

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Speaker 1: with his elbows, but he found a way to force

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Speaker 1: one up and in and then the right hand finish

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Speaker 1: to send it to overtime was an amazing finish. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's one of those ones you practice for years. Put

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Speaker 1: it up high, on the backboard above the square on

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Speaker 1: its way down, so it just kind of feathers its

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Speaker 1: way in and he did it over a shot blocker.

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Speaker 1: Great finish, but you know, in totality, his game has

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Speaker 1: a lot more holes than it ever used to have,

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Speaker 1: and he's finding where he's this short up. But that

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Speaker 1: feels like a series where the Grizzlies just one physically

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Speaker 1: not ready because you don't have you know, your starting

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Speaker 1: center or your small ball five, and then two kind

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Speaker 1: of emotionally not ready for the moment. And that happens

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Speaker 1: like look to a different extent, Lebron wasn't ready for

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Speaker 1: the moment of the NBA Finals his first time round.

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Speaker 1: I don't put all the blame on Lebron for the

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Speaker 1: Mavericks series. Go back and look, you know, Mike Bibby

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Speaker 1: was awful. He started games one through five, didn't play

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Speaker 1: at all in game six, That's how bad he was.

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Speaker 1: Yet anyone could conclude that Lebron probably wasn't ready for

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Speaker 1: the motion of that moment. Kevin Durant game six when

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Speaker 1: they could have eliminated the Warriors on their own home floor,

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Speaker 1: and Clay went game six. Go back and look, Kevin

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Speaker 1: Durrant was all probably wasn't emotionally ready for that moment,

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Speaker 1: and I think the Grizzlies in this they weren't ready.

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Speaker 2: They talked all that shit.

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Speaker 1: During the regular season, Klay Thompson famously pointed out, I

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Speaker 1: got four rings, you got none, And.

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Speaker 2: This is what he meant.

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Speaker 1: And it is not easy when you think the whole

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Speaker 1: world's against you when you're playing against Lebron, playing against

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Speaker 1: Anthony Davis. These dudes have played in all these big games,

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Speaker 1: and suddenly you feel like, you know, Dylan Brooks does

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Speaker 1: this Dylan Brooks thing, which he's done all year, when

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Speaker 1: you do it to Lebron and oh yeah, by the way,

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Speaker 1: you know that Game three where they get you know,

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Speaker 1: they're getting blown out of the water. What thirty five

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Speaker 1: to nine to start the game? You know what I

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Speaker 1: don't think most people realize was that was the first

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Speaker 1: full attendance home playoff game for the Lakers in a

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Speaker 1: decade a decade, you know, And and he made Lebron's

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Speaker 1: not never been beloved in Los Angeles. But when you

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Speaker 1: pick on somebody's superstar, and that's what you've seen, like

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Speaker 1: calling him old, you know, even if you're just messing

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Speaker 1: with him suddenly like Lebron is mister Laker. So the

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Speaker 1: Grizzlies just weren't ready for this. I don't think that

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Speaker 1: series is over by the way. They're gonna win Game

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Speaker 1: five and Game six will be a war, and if

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Speaker 1: they can find a way to win that, Game seven

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Speaker 1: is fun, really really fun in Memphis, really fun in Memphis.

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Speaker 1: You know Trey Young, Trey Young, as as of the recording,

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Speaker 1: you know last night, I mean, what an incredible comeback,

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Speaker 1: and he pulls up with a logo three to win

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Speaker 1: the game and they're in lies. Kind of the the

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Speaker 1: push and pull with Trey Young, right, so many people

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Speaker 1: have tried to push the Hawks to and the Hawks

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Speaker 1: probably want to move on from Trey, not because he's

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Speaker 1: not a great talent, but because, man, at some point,

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Speaker 1: like we just can't win with you. It's so hard

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Speaker 1: to hide. Defensively, he's fairly ball dominant. He just he's

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Speaker 1: not easy. On the other hand, nights like last night,

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Speaker 1: you're like, are we really gonna trade Trey Young? This

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Speaker 1: guy is incredible. So it's a hard one. But I

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Speaker 1: think you see between Jimmy Butler, Lebron, Anthony Edwards, Trey young,

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Speaker 1: Like this is why the playoffs are not only great,

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Speaker 1: but why this is all that really really matters, because

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Speaker 1: the best of the best show up to be the

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Speaker 1: best at the most important times. And it's also why

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Speaker 1: I feel terrible for Kawhi Leonard. You know, all this,

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Speaker 1: I mean, the stephen A. Smith stuff is such crap,

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Speaker 1: Like he should retire. He's the worst superstar ever. Like

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Speaker 1: what are you talking about? All the guy does is

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Speaker 1: work and work and work to become the best player

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Speaker 1: in the NBA. His body has just let him down,

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Speaker 1: I think. I mean that is it's one of those

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Speaker 1: where and he doubled down on it earlier today, right

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Speaker 1: before I recorded this on the worst Superstar ever?

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Speaker 2: And he should just be asked to retire.

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Speaker 1: Like it shows you that in stephen A's mind, this

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Speaker 1: is just television and stuff, because no one would ever

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Speaker 1: tell anybody that in real life, right, no one would

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Speaker 1: ever say a guy who Kawi Land has been the

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Speaker 1: best player in the league last month and a half,

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Speaker 1: and it's it. I mean, Kevin Durant is the only

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Speaker 1: other one, but he he was injured so he didn't

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Speaker 1: play as much. But those are the two best players

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Speaker 1: in the league and Kawiland was incredible at the end

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Speaker 1: of the season, incredible the first two games in the playoffs,

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Speaker 1: and obviously torres meniscus and so he's out. So no

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Speaker 1: one in their right mind would tell somebody who tore

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Speaker 1: a meniscus that they should retire, right, It's just not

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Speaker 1: It's like, not even a reasonable conversation. And the fact

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Speaker 1: that Stephen A doubled down on such an unreasonable conversation

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Speaker 1: only shows it's just TV bullshit to him. And so

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Speaker 1: there's there's this kind of disassociation and you know, all

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Speaker 1: the NBA guys are, you know, gonna get on TV

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Speaker 1: and JJ Reddick destroy him, and Jay Williams destroy him,

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Speaker 1: and Jalen Rose destroy him and whatever. But that just

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Speaker 1: feeds into what he's trying to do, I guess. But man,

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Speaker 1: that's clown show shit. It just is Let's get to

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Speaker 1: this conversation. I know Darren Heidner, well, he and I

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Speaker 1: disagree on some of the stuff, but I think it's

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Speaker 1: an interesting discussion from two people looking at the nil

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Speaker 1: from different angles. Take a listen, Darren, you have a

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Speaker 1: lot of hats you wear. How would you describe the

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Speaker 1: things you do?

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Speaker 3: Lawyer, professor, writer, problem solver.

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Speaker 2: I guess is my favorite problem solver. I like that.

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Speaker 1: A little bit of the character will from the wolf

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Speaker 1: from Pulpkin, Right, Okay, the wolf all you need?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I fixed problems, try to find solutions.

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Speaker 2: Okay. So Nil.

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Speaker 1: As a lawyer with your background, what was your what

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Speaker 1: was your opinion of NIL when it came into existence.

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Speaker 3: From a theoretical standpoint, it's something that should have never

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Speaker 3: been taken away from everybody because or from anybody, because

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Speaker 3: everybody has had the opportunity to exploit his or her name,

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Speaker 3: image and likeness for commercial gain if somebody is willing

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Speaker 3: to pay for that, whether it be placing an image

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Speaker 3: on product packaging, or using someone's likeness in a TV advertisement,

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Speaker 3: even doing a Camper clinic, creating a company providing an endorsement.

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Speaker 3: That was the theory surrounding the push, going back now

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Speaker 3: almost five years, when a lot of momentum picked up

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Speaker 3: in California first, then in my state of Florida. Why

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Speaker 3: we pushed so hard to get around the prohibition that

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Speaker 3: the NCAA had put in place. We didn't necessarily think

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Speaker 3: that it would snowball into what it's become, which is

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Speaker 3: undoubtedly a tool to recruit players coming out of high school,

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Speaker 3: which we know existed prior to NIL. Anyhow, it's just

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Speaker 3: become a bit more transparent, and then in coordination with

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Speaker 3: the transfer portal becoming an opportunity for players, absolutely becoming

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Speaker 3: an element that every single transfer portal player is considering

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Speaker 3: in choosing where to go. So I like to put

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Speaker 3: quotation marks around NIL when it's being used in that

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Speaker 3: way for recruiting out of high school or for recruiting

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Speaker 3: players in the transfer port that's not real NIL. But

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Speaker 3: at the same time, even if there weren't changes state

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Speaker 3: by state, those types of things would be happening. They

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Speaker 3: would just be happening under the service.

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Speaker 2: Okay, so you didn't You didn't see this happening.

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Speaker 1: You didn't see basically buying players as something that was

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Speaker 1: gonna be a byproduct of the true use of the

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Speaker 1: traditional use of name, image, and likeness.

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Speaker 3: I'll say this, I didn't expect it to be so

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Speaker 3: overt and apparent, and as I mentioned before, transparent. I

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Speaker 3: figured that what we were used to, at least those

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Speaker 3: in the business knew what was happening for decades, would continue,

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Speaker 3: but would likely continue outside of Twitter, outside of social

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Speaker 3: media without making pronouncements through journalists and trying to build

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Speaker 3: up books of business that being agents' attorneys, et cetera.

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Speaker 3: By talking to certain journalists and getting the word out

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Speaker 3: there that they're able to craft x amount of dollars

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Speaker 3: in negotiations for players. I did not necessarily expect that

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Speaker 3: it would be so open that nil in quotation marks

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Speaker 3: would be a part of this. I thought that athletes

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Speaker 3: that were very marketable would have an opportunity, as they

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Speaker 3: have to make upwards of millions of dollars for the

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Speaker 3: truly marketable athletes. I didn't expect it to be a

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Speaker 3: free for all when it comes to just players in

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Speaker 3: the transfer portal and people tweeting how much money is

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Speaker 3: being offered to individuals in order to get them to shift.

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Speaker 2: What are your thoughts on the current system.

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Speaker 3: It's interesting because I talk with athletic administrators coaches all

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Speaker 3: the time, and one thing comes up time and time

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Speaker 3: again from that group of individuals. They say this is unsustainable.

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Speaker 3: And when I hear them say that, I like to

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Speaker 3: push back. I asked them what exactly is unsustainable about it?

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Speaker 3: And the common response is, well, the money's going to

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Speaker 3: dry up.

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Speaker 4: But I don't see that being true, the individuals who

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Speaker 4: are spending a lot of money, whether they're doing it

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Speaker 4: directly as boosters or through these new NIL collectives that

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Speaker 4: have sprouted up, have traditionally spent a lot of money

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Speaker 4: but on athletic.

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Speaker 3: Facilities, on coaches, etc. And if they believe that they're

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Speaker 3: getting any return on their investment by way of the

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Speaker 3: programs getting stronger through NIL or quote unquote NIL, I

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Speaker 3: have to imagine it's going to continue. When I talk

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Speaker 3: to agents, when I talk to players, when I talk

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Speaker 3: to the operators of NIL collectives, they're increasingly bullish. They

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Speaker 3: think we're only touching the surface and that the money

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Speaker 3: is only going to expand from here. And I happen

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Speaker 3: to believe their right over the coaches and the athletic

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Speaker 3: administrators who believe this is unsustainable. Unless we actually shift

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Speaker 3: to a system where athletes are compensated as salaries employees

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Speaker 3: and can negotiate the terms of their employment, I think

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Speaker 3: we're just going to see this proliferate.

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Speaker 1: Well, here would be the pushback. This money's always been

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Speaker 1: used for coaches and facilities. You know, there's also the

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Speaker 1: cost overruns that happen in any business in the world.

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Speaker 1: And these donors forever have been getting a call at

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Speaker 1: some point in time, hey we need this for operating budget. Now,

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Speaker 1: there are some programs in the biggest of big conferences,

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Speaker 1: big ten SEC which they should be able to be

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Speaker 1: self sustaining because the new TV rights deals. Everybody else

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Speaker 1: I think will struggle. Right one, you're trying to keep

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Speaker 1: up with the Joneses who already have what you want,

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Speaker 1: and they're spending at a ridiculous rate, and those boosters

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Speaker 1: aren't being called upon to help on the yearly budgets.

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Speaker 1: But the other part to it is, yeah, the return

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Speaker 1: on investment. It's going to be really hard to calculate. Yes,

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Speaker 1: Miami was a success story, but there are plenty of

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Speaker 1: other stories that were disasters in NIL and one time

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Speaker 1: you can write it off as hey, it was the

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Speaker 1: wrong kid, it was the wrong time, it didn't work.

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Speaker 1: But multiple times you go to enough people and they go,

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Speaker 1: you know, like the kid didn't play, I didn't get

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Speaker 1: return investment, or I you know, we gave him all

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Speaker 1: this money and then he left the very next year.

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Speaker 2: There's no real relationship there.

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Speaker 1: I think there'll be enough sour people these are as,

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Speaker 1: you know, people that give this level of money are

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Speaker 1: usually very savvy business people, and they may not be

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Speaker 1: doing it for any sort of financial return, but they

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Speaker 1: want to get something for their money, and when they don't,

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Speaker 1: rich people don't like to waste money. That's just what

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Speaker 1: I found. I think it's going to be a very

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Speaker 1: interesting kind of new world.

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Speaker 5: Fox Sports Radio has the best sports talk lineup in

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Speaker 5: the nation. Catch all of our shows at Foxsports Radio

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Speaker 5: dot com and in the iHeartRadio app. Search FSR to

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Speaker 5: listen live.

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Speaker 1: Now, let's get to the let's get to the employment

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Speaker 1: aspect of I know it's been a push for a

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Speaker 1: long time, especially from many talented lawyers, but do people

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Speaker 1: truly understand the downside to employment right that all of

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Speaker 1: the benefits they receive are suddenly taxable. Additionally, you can

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Speaker 1: be fired, and many of the things outside of the

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Speaker 1: set salary that you're fighting for, many of those things

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Speaker 1: are already in place and already in protections for student athletes.

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Speaker 1: And so I'm not sure exactly. Maybe you can lay

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Speaker 1: out for me what would be gained by making student

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Speaker 1: athletes employees, because the big thing is that you're operating

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Speaker 1: in a tax shelter, right, Everything is all these benefits

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Speaker 1: are not taxed, and I've been told the second that

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Speaker 1: goes away they become employees, that the whole landscape changes.

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Speaker 1: How would you push back on that to the administministrator

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Speaker 1: or the person around college athletics is like, Look, you

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Speaker 1: may think you want to be an employee, but you

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Speaker 1: really don't.

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Speaker 3: I tend to agree with you in many aspects, and

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Speaker 3: that athletes and their representatives should be careful what they

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Speaker 3: wish for. I don't believe that many of them are

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Speaker 3: truly thinking this through. On the other hand, I think

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Speaker 3: the same is true when you're talking about athletic directors, presidents,

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Speaker 3: and chancellors of universities who are pushing so strongly to

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Speaker 3: avoid what may be the inevitable, which is classifying these

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Speaker 3: athletes as employees. As you mentioned, if you make these

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Speaker 3: athletes employees, they'll likely lose a lot of their benefits

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Speaker 3: from certainly a tax perspective, scholarships should be gone. And

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Speaker 3: while yes, athletes may not in the current ecosystem have

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Speaker 3: a guarantee that their scholarships will be renewed. How many

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Speaker 3: athletes do you see having their employment terminated in the

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Speaker 3: middle of the season poor performance, and that could be

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Speaker 3: where we're going now. On the other hand, there may

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Speaker 3: be real benefits for the athletes by way of having

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Speaker 3: the opportunity to unionize and collectively bargain for better work conditions,

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Speaker 3: for high wages and having perhaps a floor on their

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Speaker 3: salaries and being able to negotiate a substantial amount of money.

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Speaker 3: But the real winners in that situation could be the

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Speaker 3: same individuals who are the real winners in this era

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Speaker 3: of nil who are making the millions of dollars based

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Speaker 3: on their marketability, and oftentimes these are the best performers

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Speaker 3: on the field, on the court, et cetera. Not always,

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Speaker 3: but oftentimes. So while it may be advantageous for some athletes,

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Speaker 3: I think others and perhaps the vast majority of athletes

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Speaker 3: would want to sincerely consider whether or not it's worth

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Speaker 3: their while to fight for it. But at the same

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Speaker 3: time time again I wonder whether athletic director's presidence and

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Speaker 3: chancellors are really thinking this through who obviously make up

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Speaker 3: the NCAA and ultimately the decision making power of the NCAAA.

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Speaker 3: Because if you can establish these athletes as employees, do

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Speaker 3: you now take away a lot of these impermissible inducements

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Speaker 3: the pay for play that everyone is arguing about currently.

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Speaker 2: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I think it becomes really interesting, right because you know,

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Speaker 1: one of the things that I think athletes and many

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Speaker 1: media members and social media they love the ability to

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Speaker 1: just move school to school to school. I always get freedom.

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Speaker 1: What you have to understand is when you sign an

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Speaker 1: employee contract, right, just like coaches have a buyout. Now,

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Speaker 1: is there a noncompete clause?

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Speaker 2: Right? Which I just there's a lot of people who.

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Speaker 1: Make a lot of comments about something that they truly

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Speaker 1: don't know anything about. That's the that's the painful element

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Speaker 1: to it, which you're sitting there and go like, you know, like,

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Speaker 1: well their employees they'd be able to switch jobs? Like

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Speaker 1: ever heard of a noncompete clause?

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Speaker 3: And how we get into an interesting conversation dependent on

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Speaker 3: what state in which you're employed. California, for instance, largely

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Speaker 3: neglects or decides that non competes are not enforceable, whereas

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Speaker 3: a state like Florida or New York largely does enforce

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Speaker 3: a non compete that an employer puts in place. So

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Speaker 3: perhaps you know there's a California has a competitive advantage

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Speaker 3: in having athletes decide to commit and enroll because the

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Speaker 3: athletes know that they can freely move.

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Speaker 1: Other than there's the downside of the amount of taxes

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Speaker 1: you pay in California, right, and then the funding of

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Speaker 1: it is very different because California schools received almost no

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Speaker 1: funding or almost no funding if any, from the state,

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Speaker 1: and so the money collected and of course outside of

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Speaker 1: USC and UCLA, everybody else is very much in question.

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Speaker 1: But you know, like UCLA, their big issue is they

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Speaker 1: get no help in the state, none zero. You know,

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Speaker 1: cal the same thing. That's why those athletic departments are

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Speaker 1: in such financial despair.

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Speaker 2: So there's there is so many things to it.

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Speaker 3: I just don't understand why an athletic director or president

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Speaker 3: prefers the status quo of a transfer portal, which is

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Speaker 3: in essence unrestricted free agency without the benefits of employment.

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Speaker 2: Darren, I don't think they prefer that.

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Speaker 1: I think what's happened is, I think there's two things

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Speaker 1: that have happened at once. I think everyone believes that

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Speaker 1: the NCAA doesn't have the fortitude to say, hey, these

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Speaker 1: are the rules, you know, because it's like they just

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Speaker 1: put out the new rule right with the transfer portal

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Speaker 1: where you can't have a second transfer unless there is

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Speaker 1: you know, like you're not going to be able to

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Speaker 1: transfer a second time. Nobody actually believes to enforce that

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Speaker 1: everyone's claiming some sort of mental health issue, because who's

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Speaker 1: going to be the one to say, well, that's bullshit

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Speaker 1: you Like, I know one student athlete very well regarded,

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Speaker 1: transferred once from a high major to a high major,

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Speaker 1: now transferring again in the portal and has listed mental

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Speaker 1: health as the reason to transfer again. I talked to

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Speaker 1: the school his second school, and he said, like, well, listen,

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Speaker 1: we'd respected me. He had a mental health issue, but never

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Speaker 1: once asked for counseling, never once had an issue, never

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Speaker 1: once missed a practice.

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Speaker 2: Like really, that's going that one's going to be really

433
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:36,280
Speaker 2: hard to argue.

434
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,639
Speaker 1: So I think part of it is nobody believed that

435
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,399
Speaker 1: the NCAA had the guts or schools have the guts

436
00:24:41,400 --> 00:24:43,959
Speaker 1: to go like, hey, guess what, here's the rules.

437
00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 2: You got to stick to them. And I think the

438
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,040
Speaker 2: other part to it is.

439
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: That, frankly, the NCAA has kind of done what many

440
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:54,760
Speaker 1: police departments have done in major cities where they're pushed

441
00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:57,719
Speaker 1: back to the oh you don't want us, and Willians

442
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: says you don't want us to to to be a

443
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: part of this, fine, handle it yourself, and it's become

444
00:25:03,400 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 1: a complete free for all, which is a mess. And

445
00:25:06,119 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 1: the idea is eventually you'll come back, whether it's for

446
00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 1: the NCAA or some other ruling body, figure out, Hey,

447
00:25:12,240 --> 00:25:15,280
Speaker 1: we got to have some rules here, because otherwise this

448
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:16,880
Speaker 1: thing just spirals out of control.

449
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 3: But that's the problem, right, And I mentioned as time

450
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 3: and time again. I'd rather there be an ecosystem where

451
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 3: there are no rules at all than have one where

452
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,360
Speaker 3: there are rules that are simply not being enforced, because

453
00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 3: that's where you have the unfair competitive advantage for those

454
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,399
Speaker 3: who violate the rules that exist and aren't being enforced,

455
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:39,360
Speaker 3: as opposed to those who will continue to remain conservative

456
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:42,920
Speaker 3: and act in accordance with those rules even though they're

457
00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:45,760
Speaker 3: not being enforced. It's a real calamity.

458
00:25:46,680 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 1: Is there any way to establish it as true ANIL?

459
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,480
Speaker 3: Well, the vast majority of deal making is true ANIL,

460
00:25:57,280 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 3: but the media loves to cover obviously the major deals

461
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:09,480
Speaker 3: between collectives and boosters with players. The way to modify

462
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,840
Speaker 3: that and make it so that there's only true NIL

463
00:26:13,320 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 3: would be for their not only to be rules but

464
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,320
Speaker 3: for those rules to have teeth and for there to

465
00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 3: be true enforcement and not selective enforcement, which is also

466
00:26:23,000 --> 00:26:25,840
Speaker 3: a problem. There are so many schools and hundreds of

467
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:30,040
Speaker 3: thousands of players, and one of the issues is the NCAA,

468
00:26:30,200 --> 00:26:33,320
Speaker 3: for many months now has come out and said, when

469
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,080
Speaker 3: we enforce our rules, which we're still waiting for roughly

470
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 3: two years in, we're not going to focus on punishing

471
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:43,560
Speaker 3: the athletes who are obviously a main part of these transactions.

472
00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,680
Speaker 3: We're going to go after the schools who really don't

473
00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,520
Speaker 3: even have much control based on the activities of their

474
00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:54,480
Speaker 3: boosters and their nil collectives. Meanwhile, the NCAA has no

475
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 3: subpoena powers, so it's relying on the information that's voluntarily

476
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,120
Speaker 3: provided to it. So all of a sudden, the NCAA says,

477
00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 3: we're okay with relying on circumstantial evidence, not even direct evidence,

478
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,719
Speaker 3: and oh, by the way, it's going to be guilty

479
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:13,960
Speaker 3: unless you prove your innocence. For the schools. Now, again,

480
00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 3: it sounds pretty miserable. But at the same time, even now,

481
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,399
Speaker 3: months after they've said this, we still haven't seen a

482
00:27:21,720 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 3: single instance of the rules being enforced, And what happened

483
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: at Miami was not an NIL punishment. That was a

484
00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:32,119
Speaker 3: recruiting related punishment that would have been in place prior

485
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 3: to NIL. So we're still waiting two years in it.

486
00:27:35,480 --> 00:27:36,639
Speaker 3: It's a matter of enforcement.

487
00:27:37,640 --> 00:27:42,760
Speaker 1: The Miami thing is interesting, right because John Ruiz's company

488
00:27:43,119 --> 00:27:47,719
Speaker 1: is a mess, right, and yet he made sure to

489
00:27:48,240 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: be be the face of Miami's NIL for both women's

490
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:56,280
Speaker 1: and men's basketball. I'm not sure in regards to the

491
00:27:56,560 --> 00:28:02,720
Speaker 1: college football as well, So what are your thoughts on

492
00:28:02,840 --> 00:28:06,280
Speaker 1: Miami that was championed as Hey, look.

493
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,440
Speaker 2: You can create winning programs and a winning.

494
00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:15,720
Speaker 1: Culture while essentially buying players from you know, the Cavender

495
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:19,360
Speaker 1: Twins and then of course Nigel Pac coming out from

496
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: Kansas State, and now of course he has some financial issues.

497
00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: What are yours as And I know you're a Florida guy,

498
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 1: so it's easy to to kick on the U when

499
00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:32,320
Speaker 1: they're financially you know, like, this does seem like a

500
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 1: cycle at Miami, right, getting in bed with the various characters.

501
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:37,680
Speaker 2: But what are your thoughts on.

502
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 1: Miami, which you know, you go back to the Final

503
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 1: four was championed as the future of high major athletics.

504
00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,760
Speaker 3: Well, I'm very close to the situation I've been working

505
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:51,800
Speaker 3: with the Cavender Twins for almost two years. I was

506
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: part of that process when they decided that they were

507
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,040
Speaker 3: going to put their names in the transfer portal and

508
00:28:56,120 --> 00:28:59,440
Speaker 3: ultimately decide to enroll at the University of Miami. And

509
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 3: I can tell you you with confidence and assurance that

510
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 3: ANDI All, specifically with regard to John Reize, did not

511
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: play a role. Did and I all play a role

512
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 3: with regard to how they thought their marketability would be

513
00:29:12,000 --> 00:29:16,920
Speaker 3: expanded being in a market like Miami. Absolutely, did they

514
00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:19,560
Speaker 3: sign a deal with Ruiz's companies. Yes. Have they been

515
00:29:19,600 --> 00:29:22,520
Speaker 3: paid on those deals, Yes, And I think that's what's

516
00:29:22,560 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 3: most important until checks are bounced, until payments aren't made

517
00:29:27,520 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 3: under these contracts, I don't think that there's really any concern.

518
00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,200
Speaker 3: I've seen the articles about Ruiz's company life wallet. I

519
00:29:35,240 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 3: know Darren Novel has posted quite a few of those

520
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 3: and tweeted on them, But at the end of the day,

521
00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 3: we haven't seen, at least I haven't yet seen any

522
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,160
Speaker 3: fallout from that. You know, there was a lot of

523
00:29:46,360 --> 00:29:49,880
Speaker 3: speculation that Tyler van Dijk, the starting quarterback of Miami,

524
00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:52,680
Speaker 3: would be leading and he's put those rumors to rest.

525
00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 3: So we've seen obviously impacts the great run of the

526
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,320
Speaker 3: Miami men's backasketball team into the Final four, the run

527
00:30:02,360 --> 00:30:04,640
Speaker 3: that the female basketball team had, you know, on the

528
00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 3: football side, we haven't seen those results yet. But I'd

529
00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:10,120
Speaker 3: also say that it's going to take some time to

530
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,440
Speaker 3: really come to a conclusion as to whether or not

531
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,560
Speaker 3: these efforts are successful. Just like we tend to give coaches,

532
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:20,640
Speaker 3: or should give coaches a minimum of let's say, three

533
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 3: years to determine whether or not they're able to make

534
00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 3: a difference when they come into a new program, I

535
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 3: think the same is going to be true with NIL.

536
00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 3: It's just a bit too soon to say that NIL

537
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 3: is or is not working at a specific school. And

538
00:30:35,560 --> 00:30:38,480
Speaker 3: to address something that was said before, I mean, smart people,

539
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,600
Speaker 3: wealthy people don't like to waste money, although I'd say

540
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 3: the one exception to that is sports. We do see

541
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:50,280
Speaker 3: very wealthy people funnel tons of cash to universities going

542
00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 3: decades past, and I think collectives, perhaps and maybe even

543
00:30:55,920 --> 00:31:00,320
Speaker 3: the schools would be able to persuade these wealthy donors

544
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 3: to push more money in by saying, hey, what you

545
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:04,960
Speaker 3: put in wasn't enough. We need a little more to

546
00:31:05,000 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 3: get us over the top and get this player, that player,

547
00:31:07,320 --> 00:31:09,920
Speaker 3: et cetera. So I'm not as convinced as you are

548
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: that a lot of these wealthy people who are spending

549
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:14,000
Speaker 3: are just going to turn off that spigott.

550
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:20,440
Speaker 1: How does it work with a recruited athlete? You know,

551
00:31:20,480 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 1: the Kavinder twins are different, right, I would say they

552
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: are non traditional because they had a massive, massive social

553
00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 1: media following prior to Miami and really had very little

554
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:34,520
Speaker 1: to do with basketball.

555
00:31:35,120 --> 00:31:35,360
Speaker 2: Right.

556
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 1: They just happened to play collegiate sports, but they were,

557
00:31:40,320 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: you know, they were kind of a business unto themselves.

558
00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 2: Right.

559
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:49,000
Speaker 1: So for the traditional recruited athlete or even athlete who's

560
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:53,280
Speaker 1: in the transfer portal, how does it actually work in

561
00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: regards to nil Let's just let's just take you. So

562
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 1: for people who don't know you act as the agent

563
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,080
Speaker 1: for the student, like correct.

564
00:32:00,840 --> 00:32:01,280
Speaker 2: I do not.

565
00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 3: I actually act as a lawyer for athletes, agents, brands,

566
00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 3: and collectives. But I don't like getting myself in the

567
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 3: weeds when it comes to procuring deals and negotiating compensation elements.

568
00:32:15,600 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: Now I know it to be dangerous though, So okay,

569
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: So how does it work?

570
00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: Like let's say kid puts himself in the portal.

571
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:29,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, the coaches aren't supposed to have any knowledge

572
00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: of nil and what a collective is going to offer

573
00:32:33,560 --> 00:32:36,320
Speaker 1: and what's available, but how does that actually work?

574
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,840
Speaker 3: Right? But they know right, I mean, the going course

575
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 3: rumor right now is Hunter Dickinson's going to get upwards

576
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 3: of a million dollars to transfer, right, and it'll be

577
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:47,160
Speaker 3: one of the blue bloods I'm sure that he transfers to.

578
00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: And that's again I don't have any personal knowledge of that,

579
00:32:49,840 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 3: but that's the word among coaches right now. And the

580
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 3: coaches again aren't supposed to have any direct involvement. In fact,

581
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 3: they're really not supposed to have any indirected but they

582
00:33:00,880 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 3: absolutely know what's going on, what the demands are, and

583
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:08,520
Speaker 3: have conversations with boosters and collectives across the country. Because

584
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 3: the boosters and the collectives obviously aren't in a position

585
00:33:11,960 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 3: where they have the experience knowledge wherewithal to really run recruiting.

586
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 3: They shouldn't be. So what happens oftentimes is that you'll

587
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,400
Speaker 3: have an agent attached to a player who's in the

588
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: transfer portal, and what we've seen now or there's so

589
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 3: many inexperienced agents, agents who are either not certified with

590
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 3: the National Basketball Players Association or just weren't marketing agents

591
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 3: prior to two years ago, matching up with these players,

592
00:33:38,240 --> 00:33:42,440
Speaker 3: sometimes very talented players, and reaching out to boosters, reaching

593
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:46,360
Speaker 3: out to collectives, reaching out directly to coaches and athletic departments,

594
00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:51,719
Speaker 3: and shopping these players around, sometimes putting out false numbers,

595
00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:53,880
Speaker 3: saying one school is offering one thing to try to

596
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:57,800
Speaker 3: drive up the price. And it can get pretty gruesome.

597
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:02,360
Speaker 3: But ultimately, these age are really the power brokers right now,

598
00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,720
Speaker 3: even though they may have a lack of experience, and

599
00:34:05,760 --> 00:34:09,120
Speaker 3: they're oftentimes taking a hefty commission on these deals, upwards

600
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:09,880
Speaker 3: of twenty percent.

601
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 2: What if I propose to you that the way to

602
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:19,200
Speaker 2: tell least temporarily think some of it is you cannot

603
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:24,560
Speaker 2: collect nil until you have actually competed for the university.

604
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 3: I hate it, and it goes back to the whole

605
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 3: reason why we in the state of Florida and other

606
00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:38,440
Speaker 3: states pushed so hard for change going back to twenty nineteen,

607
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,360
Speaker 3: because in no other industry do you have such limitation

608
00:34:41,480 --> 00:34:45,920
Speaker 3: and restrictions. And furthermore, there's added complexity now with twenty

609
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 3: five states in Washington, d C. Allowing high school athletes

610
00:34:49,120 --> 00:34:53,440
Speaker 3: to engage in NIL opportunities. I guess under your hypothetical

611
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:58,000
Speaker 3: that would be that would go away and only individuals

612
00:34:58,040 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 3: who have started to compete in college would be able

613
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 3: to monetize their name, image and likeness. But so many

614
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:08,279
Speaker 3: people you mentioned the Cabnter Twins, they had massive followings beforehand.

615
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 3: I mean, I'm working with Kayen Anthony Carmelo and Laala's

616
00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:16,000
Speaker 3: child and he's in high school. He's extremely marketable. Why

617
00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: should he be prevented from doing legit andil deals with brands?

618
00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:21,840
Speaker 2: So how do you so?

619
00:35:21,960 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: How how do you create a world where nil becomes

620
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,760
Speaker 1: legit and it doesn't become buying players?

621
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:33,880
Speaker 3: You have rules which exist, and you do whatever's necessary

622
00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 3: to enforce them.

623
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: Okay, but so what give me a rule that makes

624
00:35:38,719 --> 00:35:42,000
Speaker 1: that That was the intent of the rule, which is, hey,

625
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:45,120
Speaker 1: if you in order to collect this, you actually have

626
00:35:45,200 --> 00:35:47,600
Speaker 1: to compete because that builds up your name, image and likeness.

627
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:50,120
Speaker 1: There are you know, and again you're talking about the

628
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:53,759
Speaker 1: Kayan Anthony's, the Kavender Twins, le Bronni James. Those are

629
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,920
Speaker 1: the outliers, right, Zion Williamson outliers?

630
00:35:56,960 --> 00:35:57,240
Speaker 3: Sure?

631
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: Most of them? Ninety nine percent of the student athletes.

632
00:36:00,760 --> 00:36:04,320
Speaker 1: They create the name, image and likeness value for themselves

633
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:07,680
Speaker 1: by simply playing. You play well, you get to make

634
00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: money off of playing well, right, So how just give

635
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:20,640
Speaker 1: me a rule which which is enforceable, that prevents buying

636
00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 1: players while keeping intact the idea of profiting off of

637
00:36:26,400 --> 00:36:27,560
Speaker 1: your name, image and likeness.

638
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:30,480
Speaker 3: It's the rule that exists, the rule that there cannot

639
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,880
Speaker 3: be an inducement. You cannot make a payment to a

640
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:37,080
Speaker 3: player or condition a payment to a player based on

641
00:36:37,239 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 3: his enrollment at a university, and that you can't pull

642
00:36:41,160 --> 00:36:45,439
Speaker 3: the payment if that player transfers or isn't residing where

643
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:47,839
Speaker 3: that university is situated. It's as simple as that.

644
00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:50,600
Speaker 2: All right, I know you gotta run. I appreciate your time,

645
00:36:50,880 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: Thank you, right, all right, we'll do it again, all right,

646
00:36:56,080 --> 00:36:56,440
Speaker 2: all right?

647
00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 1: Thanks to Darren Heidener. Of course, you can follow them

648
00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,480
Speaker 1: on social media. It's h E I T N E R.

649
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:07,040
Speaker 1: And he's he's a mover and a shaker in this thing,

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Speaker 1: and he's also a great source of information for what

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Speaker 1: really really goes on. Give me your thoughts at Gottlieb

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Speaker 1: Show on Instagram at Gottlieb Show on Twitter. And the

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Speaker 1: Doug Gottlieb Show Facebook page is always live, and you

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Speaker 1: can give me your thoughts on NIL, on Darren's position,

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Speaker 1: on my position, and is there a way to kind

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Speaker 1: of fix the current state of college athletics, most importantly

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Speaker 1: college basketball. Anyway, I'm Doug Gottlieb. I hope you enjoyed it.

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Speaker 1: This is all ball