WEBVTT - #005 Jason Flom with Marty Tankleff 0:00:02.240 --> 0:00:05.800 Of all the hundreds of xuneries that I've had the 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:10.040 privilege to meet, none have touched my heart any more 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.760 profoundly than Marty Tankliffe. And his case is profiled, by 0:00:13.760 --> 0:00:16.120 the way, in one of the most incredible books I've 0:00:16.160 --> 0:00:20.840 ever read. It's called A Criminal Injustice, A True Crime, 0:00:21.320 --> 0:00:24.760 a False Confession, and the Fight to Free Marty Tankliff. 0:00:24.760 --> 0:00:27.880 It's by Richard Firshman and J. Saltpeter. It reads like 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.840 a John Grisham novel, but it's all true. Marty is 0:00:31.880 --> 0:00:38.320 an incredible human. Since his episode originally aired on November seven, 0:00:38.360 --> 0:00:42.040 twenty sixteen, a number of amazing developments have happened in 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:45.280 Marty's life. He received in twenty eighteen a ten million 0:00:45.320 --> 0:00:48.120 dollars settlement, which, by the way, you could put another 0:00:48.200 --> 0:00:49.800 zero on it still wouldn't make up for what he 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.440 went through. Marty passed a Bar exam, and he's pursuing 0:00:53.440 --> 0:00:57.080 a career as an attorney, advocating criminal justice reform and 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.760 fighting to write wrongful convictions. And if that wasn't enough 0:01:01.760 --> 0:01:05.560 for you, Marty is now a professor at Georgetown University, 0:01:05.920 --> 0:01:10.440 leading a class with Professor Mark Howard that is helping 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.880 to resolve wrong for conviction cases. They already had their 0:01:13.880 --> 0:01:17.160 first win in the case of Valentino Dixon, who's been 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:22.080 on my show. Marty Tankliffe a profile and courage, an 0:01:22.240 --> 0:01:26.840 unbelievable story that you have to hear, so please listen 0:01:27.319 --> 0:01:31.279 to my interview with Marty Tankliffe. 0:01:32.800 --> 0:01:34.559 I came from a beautiful neighborhood. 0:01:35.480 --> 0:01:37.800 I had a beautiful life. 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:40.640 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:01:40.720 --> 0:01:42.880 day of my high school year. I was going to 0:01:42.920 --> 0:01:43.399 be a senior. 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:45.720 At twenty two, I was set to start college. 0:01:46.520 --> 0:01:49.360 I woke up and my life was never the same again. 0:01:50.000 --> 0:01:53.400 Cops came out with guns drawn, and I never saw 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.880 freedom ever since after that. It's like roach mode, Tom, 0:01:57.000 --> 0:01:59.200 once you get in and I can't now. 0:02:01.880 --> 0:02:10.160 This is wrongful conviction. With Jason Flumm. I'm very excited 0:02:10.200 --> 0:02:13.640 today because I have two people who I consider heroes 0:02:13.680 --> 0:02:16.519 of mine for different sets of reasons on the show. 0:02:17.240 --> 0:02:20.760 Marty Tankleff is here today. Marty is an exonery who 0:02:20.960 --> 0:02:25.200 was wrongfully convicted of murdering his parents, which I get 0:02:25.240 --> 0:02:29.079 the chills just hearing myself say that, and he's going 0:02:29.120 --> 0:02:33.840 to share his remarkable story of going through what could 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:37.000 be considered one of the most traumatic experiences that any 0:02:37.200 --> 0:02:42.400 human being could ever endure, and his subsequent triumph post exoneration. 0:02:43.000 --> 0:02:45.760 You will be amazed at what he's been able to 0:02:45.760 --> 0:02:49.880 accomplish and overcome. We also have today, Saul Cassen, and 0:02:49.960 --> 0:02:52.120 I'm going to Embarrassaul a little bit by reading part 0:02:52.160 --> 0:02:57.040 of his resume, because it's quite extraordinary. Saul is a 0:02:57.080 --> 0:03:00.800 true hero of the Innocent's movement. He's English Professor of 0:03:00.800 --> 0:03:03.240 psychology at John Jay College of Criminal Justice in New 0:03:03.320 --> 0:03:07.600 York and Massachusetts Professor emeritus at Williams College. He's received 0:03:07.600 --> 0:03:12.560 his PhD at the University of Connecticut. Moreover, Saul pioneered 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:15.760 in the eighties the scientific study of false confessions by 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:21.519 introducing a taxonomy that distinguished between three types of false confessions, voluntary, compliant, 0:03:21.520 --> 0:03:25.880 and internalized that is universally accepted today. He has recently 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:29.840 studied forensic confirmation biases and the impact that confessions have 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:33.600 on judges, juries, lay witnesses, forensic science examiners, and the 0:03:33.600 --> 0:03:38.600 plea bargaining process. He is widely considered the foremost expert 0:03:39.240 --> 0:03:42.800 on false confessions. So welcome both of you. Thanks for 0:03:42.800 --> 0:03:44.160 coming in and joining us today. 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:45.480 Thank you for having us. 0:03:46.160 --> 0:03:48.920 Marty. Let's start with you. So let's go back to 0:03:49.240 --> 0:03:50.440 you grew up in Long Island. 0:03:51.280 --> 0:03:54.120 I grew up in an affluent area called Beltan, New York, 0:03:54.160 --> 0:03:56.720 which is a little hamlet in Port Jeffice in New 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:01.680 York North Shore, Suffolk County. I was lived in a 0:04:02.040 --> 0:04:06.000 kind of a wonderful area. I went to Portreffson High School, 0:04:06.160 --> 0:04:09.640 where the norm was we drove nice cars, we went 0:04:09.680 --> 0:04:14.320 on boats. And what happened to me was not something 0:04:14.560 --> 0:04:17.520 myself or anyone in my neighborhood could have ever imagined. 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:19.240 No, no one could imagine it. 0:04:19.880 --> 0:04:23.840 You had a happy childhood, a nuclear family, right, you 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:24.440 and your sister. 0:04:24.560 --> 0:04:28.280 Your parents idyllic, A little bit more idyllic because I 0:04:28.320 --> 0:04:32.000 was adopted, so my parents were older. So a lot 0:04:32.040 --> 0:04:34.839 of what we did growing up, my father live viciously 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:37.960 through me because he didn't have a very good childhood. 0:04:38.440 --> 0:04:41.000 So you know, we had the boats, the ATVs, we 0:04:41.160 --> 0:04:44.240 traveled a lot, so it was very It was a 0:04:44.279 --> 0:04:45.120 great childhood. 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.760 And he was the bagel king, right he What. 0:04:47.680 --> 0:04:51.080 He did was is my father was an entrepreneur who 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.919 invested with Jerry Steuerman, who was then known as the 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:56.240 bagel King of Long Island. 0:04:56.600 --> 0:05:01.919 Right, So everything's fine, everything's good until one really terrible, 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:05.359 fateful day. And let's talk about that. And we're going 0:05:05.440 --> 0:05:06.800 to get to you, Saul in a minute when we 0:05:06.839 --> 0:05:09.760 get into the deeper issues surrounding what happened to Marty. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:14.200 But first I want to set the stage. So you're 0:05:14.240 --> 0:05:17.080 at home, right, typical day, you wake up in the morning, 0:05:17.760 --> 0:05:18.560 walk us through this. 0:05:18.960 --> 0:05:21.360 Let me give you a little background. My father was 0:05:21.520 --> 0:05:25.280 partners with Jerry Struman, had invested over a half a 0:05:25.320 --> 0:05:28.080 million dollars with Jerry in his bagel stores and horses, 0:05:28.839 --> 0:05:31.960 and in the summer of nineteen eighty eight their relationship 0:05:32.040 --> 0:05:35.480 significantly deteriorated. What I later learned was is that we 0:05:35.520 --> 0:05:38.880 believe my father learned what Jerry's business was really about. 0:05:39.400 --> 0:05:43.080 Jerry's son, Todd, was a drug dealer, and we believe 0:05:43.160 --> 0:05:46.080 my father kind of realized that the bagel businesses may 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:50.440 have been a money wandering operation for Todd's drug dealing business. 0:05:50.480 --> 0:05:52.280 And we're talking hard drugs, now, hard drugs. 0:05:52.640 --> 0:05:58.080 Todd was arrested, went to prison for possession of cocaine, marijuana, 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.200 and other drugs, and he of time in New York 0:06:01.200 --> 0:06:06.000 State Prisons. But my father was a tough older man. 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.040 Nothing would stop him. And one of the things that 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:11.480 he was involved with was is there was a weekly 0:06:11.520 --> 0:06:15.159 poker game, and on September sixth was his night to 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:18.039 hold the weekly poker game. And one of the members 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.960 at that game was Jerry Struerman. And my father was 0:06:22.000 --> 0:06:24.320 a type of man. It didn't matter, you know, how 0:06:24.440 --> 0:06:28.360 much threatening Jerry Struman did. And there were threats. We 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:32.640 later learned about two weeks before September sixth, Jerry Steuerman 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:36.200 threatened to cut my father's tongue out, and it got 0:06:36.200 --> 0:06:39.160 so bad that my father was even looking into buying 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:41.040 a shotgun because he was fearful. 0:06:41.880 --> 0:06:44.440 Right, So it seems crazy that he would still allow 0:06:44.520 --> 0:06:46.080 him into his house. But as you said, your dad 0:06:46.120 --> 0:06:47.920 was a tough guy. He didn't really fear anyone. And 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:51.560 now we've set the stage. There's the poker game, right, 0:06:51.600 --> 0:06:53.839 there's obviously a tense environment right with the two of 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:55.440 them in the room. 0:06:55.720 --> 0:06:57.520 And but you went to sleep. 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.600 I went to sleep because September seventh was the first 0:07:00.680 --> 0:07:01.880 day of my high school year. 0:07:02.760 --> 0:07:03.599 You were going to be a senior. 0:07:03.680 --> 0:07:05.599 I was going to be a senior. Right, and I 0:07:05.680 --> 0:07:08.320 woke up and my life was never the same again. 0:07:08.880 --> 0:07:11.000 So you woke up in the morning, and the. 0:07:10.960 --> 0:07:14.760 Situation was that I woke up that morning, noticed that 0:07:14.800 --> 0:07:17.240 the lights were on in my house. The house wasn't 0:07:17.280 --> 0:07:18.000 locked up. 0:07:18.760 --> 0:07:20.760 Walked through the house and they were upstairs. 0:07:20.920 --> 0:07:23.520 It's a ranch house. It's a very long ranch house. 0:07:23.640 --> 0:07:25.760 Where the bedrooms were in one end of the house, 0:07:26.840 --> 0:07:30.000 where the card game was was in the complete opposite. 0:07:29.560 --> 0:07:31.600 End of the house, right, So you wouldn't have heard any. 0:07:31.560 --> 0:07:35.360 Would have heard anything. And I discovered my father who 0:07:35.400 --> 0:07:38.640 was still sitting in his office chair, and he was alive, 0:07:39.680 --> 0:07:40.120 and he was. 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:44.720 Bleeding, bleeding profusely, profusely. Yes, and what'd you do? 0:07:45.400 --> 0:07:49.360 I called nine one one and I followed their instructions, 0:07:49.680 --> 0:07:51.800 and eventually law enforcement showed up. 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.160 Right. They told you to wrap them as best you 0:07:54.160 --> 0:07:56.480 could give you, gave you some medical tips whatever, try 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.280 to stop the bleeding, that kind of stuff. 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:01.720 Right, And within a short period of time, law enforcement 0:08:01.800 --> 0:08:02.240 showed up. 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:04.040 At the house. Where's your mom? 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:07.600 I ended up My mother was actually in her bedroom. 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:10.880 Cops come and immediately they removed me. 0:08:10.840 --> 0:08:11.400 From the house. 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:15.840 And what I kind of can say now is that 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:18.800 The process of questioning me, trying to find out what 0:08:18.840 --> 0:08:22.600 happened started almost immediately. Even when I had family members 0:08:22.600 --> 0:08:26.200 show up that morning, there was this immediate separation. I 0:08:26.360 --> 0:08:29.320 was told consistently I was being taken to the hospital. 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.800 Unfortunately I was never taken to the hospital. I ended 0:08:32.880 --> 0:08:34.679 up being taken to police headquarters. 0:08:35.400 --> 0:08:38.800 So they took you to police headquarters because and obviously 0:08:38.840 --> 0:08:41.760 this whole sort of pattern is emerging right where they 0:08:41.840 --> 0:08:43.760 wanted to They had an agenda. 0:08:44.040 --> 0:08:46.160 Yeah, I mean, you know at that day, I didn't 0:08:46.200 --> 0:08:49.200 know that. When I was seventeen years old, my father 0:08:49.320 --> 0:08:52.960 was the police commissioner of our little community. I was 0:08:53.040 --> 0:08:56.559 raised to trust law enforcement, believe in them. Law enforcement 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.839 wouldn't lie to you, they wouldn't deceive you. Unfortunately, that's 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:01.319 everything that they did that morning. 0:09:01.400 --> 0:09:03.240 Right, and you're in an extremely fragile state, and you 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:05.079 need help, right, you need someone to help you. You're 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:09.199 seventeen years old, right, I mean it's and still a child, basically. 0:09:08.960 --> 0:09:11.880 Still a child. And every time a family member showed 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:14.160 up or a friend showed up, they were ripped away 0:09:14.160 --> 0:09:17.040 again that morning. So when my brother in law showed up, 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.720 he was ripped away. When my godfather, who was also 0:09:20.760 --> 0:09:24.560 the family attorney, showed up. I saw him. He never 0:09:24.600 --> 0:09:27.760 saw me. But McCready, who was the lead detective. His 0:09:27.840 --> 0:09:29.760 name is Kay James McCready was the lead detective on 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:33.520 the case, ran to him and basically told him I 0:09:33.600 --> 0:09:36.040 was already on the way to the hospital. I wasn't 0:09:36.040 --> 0:09:37.160 at the house, even though I. 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:38.440 Was at the house, right. 0:09:38.480 --> 0:09:45.600 So there's a pattern of deception and maneuvers that are disingenuous. 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:45.680 At best, let's say. 0:09:45.720 --> 0:09:48.280 But the fact is, at this point, were you aware 0:09:48.320 --> 0:09:52.240 that your mom had been killed. Yes, So you're in 0:09:52.280 --> 0:09:56.319 a state of total shock panic. How can you even 0:09:56.360 --> 0:09:56.920 describe it? 0:09:57.640 --> 0:09:58.720 Words can't describe it. 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:02.080 I mean, people, it's you were close to your parents. 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:05.520 They were my parents, I mean adopted you and everything 0:10:05.720 --> 0:10:07.800 I was not before I was born. That the parents 0:10:07.920 --> 0:10:11.240 the only parents I ever knew. They I have the 0:10:11.360 --> 0:10:14.760 most amazing childhood. I mean there was nothing I didn't 0:10:14.800 --> 0:10:18.319 have growing up. You know, people used to joke that 0:10:18.360 --> 0:10:21.280 I was a spoiled kid, and I was, but my 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:24.400 father instilled amazing work values in me. I was working 0:10:24.480 --> 0:10:27.280 since I was probably eleven or twelve years old, but 0:10:27.360 --> 0:10:29.440 I traveled with my with my parents. I mean, I 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:30.400 did everything with them. 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:35.239 So let's get to the interrogation and the false confession 0:10:35.480 --> 0:10:38.800 in prison and the whole saga you used to ended 0:10:38.880 --> 0:10:39.839 up serving. 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:42.760 Six three hundred and thirty eight days, which is about 0:10:42.800 --> 0:10:44.960 seventeen and a half years. What I tell people is, 0:10:45.000 --> 0:10:48.880 I said, imagine, you know, seventeen years. What you know, 0:10:48.960 --> 0:10:51.960 from the time you're born to the time you're seventeen, 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:58.240 losing the entire period, or losing your entire twenties, your thirties. 0:10:57.880 --> 0:10:59.640 From seventies, well, you know, the first few years you 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:01.079 don't even know what's going on. But the fact it is, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:03.840 from seventeen to thirty four, that's when you're building your life. 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:07.120 That's really you know, those are the formative years for 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:16.720 anybody to establish relationships, you know, both personal, sexual, business, college, 0:11:17.040 --> 0:11:19.520 All that stuff's out the window. So all let's I mean, 0:11:19.559 --> 0:11:21.760 you're obviously very familiar with Mary's case. You've known Marty 0:11:21.760 --> 0:11:23.959 since nineteen ninety three, is all right? Oh, you've known 0:11:24.000 --> 0:11:24.520 of each other. 0:11:24.640 --> 0:11:27.559 He started writing letters to me from prison. 0:11:27.760 --> 0:11:28.360 In ninety three. 0:11:28.520 --> 0:11:30.720 In ninety three, right in ninety three, what were you doing. 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:35.199 I was a professor at Williams College studying the psychology 0:11:35.240 --> 0:11:38.480 of false confessions. I had just become interested in false confessions, 0:11:38.520 --> 0:11:40.960 and I was doing some research and publishing that research. 0:11:41.040 --> 0:11:42.200 How'd you get interested in it? 0:11:43.280 --> 0:11:45.680 Actually? I got interested because I came out of graduate 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:48.840 school in social psychology interested in how juries make decisions. 0:11:49.480 --> 0:11:52.440 And after collecting some initial data for the first several 0:11:52.520 --> 0:11:54.880 months of a post STOC I was at the University 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:57.840 of Kansas, it became clear to me that every time 0:11:57.880 --> 0:11:59.960 I had a case in which there was a confess 0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:04.400 and evidence, all variability of juror's responses dropped out. Everybody 0:12:04.520 --> 0:12:08.120 voted guilty. Confession evidence was perfect in the minds of 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:09.000 the average juror. 0:12:09.520 --> 0:12:12.600 Is it the most powerful evidentiary tool that there is? 0:12:12.800 --> 0:12:16.160 Yes? And there is Trump's DNA or yes. 0:12:16.200 --> 0:12:19.440 I mean, we've seen cases and you've obviously seen so 0:12:19.480 --> 0:12:22.600 many of them in which a jury is presented at 0:12:22.600 --> 0:12:26.280 the same time with a false confession and DNA that 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:30.480 proves scientifically yes, without any doubt, that it could not 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:32.880 have been the person who gave the confession. And they 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:34.000 will choose which one. 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.120 They will choose. They will they will vote guilty on 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:38.960 the basis of that confession, and they will explain away 0:12:39.040 --> 0:12:42.000 they will find ways to explain away the DNA, right, So. 0:12:41.920 --> 0:12:43.800 You're presented with a thing that shows I mean because 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.080 in a violent crime, if there's physical contact, then there's blood. 0:12:47.080 --> 0:12:49.440 And if it's a rape, if there's an assault, if 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:52.160 there's a stabbing, there's DNA, right. And if your DNA 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.200 is not there, you weren't there. Right. Nobody's ever been 0:12:55.200 --> 0:12:57.080 able to figure out how to and not be there 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:57.360 the same. 0:12:57.480 --> 0:13:00.640 There are cases on record where not only the DNA 0:13:00.800 --> 0:13:03.680 exclude the confessor at the point of trial, but it 0:13:03.800 --> 0:13:08.200 identified the perpetrator and still the confessor was convicted. 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.360 Right, So people can and I know this too from 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:14.200 my own experience, it's very very difficult for people to 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:18.360 wrap them and mine is anecdotal, but it's very hard 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.600 for people to wrap around the idea of anybody would confess. 0:13:20.640 --> 0:13:24.320 We know that with juveniles it's much more common because 0:13:24.360 --> 0:13:26.920 they're more impressionable. In many cases, they can be actually 0:13:27.480 --> 0:13:31.120 coaxed into or or coerced into believing that they actually 0:13:31.120 --> 0:13:31.400 did it. 0:13:31.760 --> 0:13:35.240 Is that right? Yes, which is really another level of Yeah. 0:13:35.600 --> 0:13:38.280 Go into any audience of late people and ask the question, 0:13:38.320 --> 0:13:40.600 which ever confess to a serious crime you didn't commit, 0:13:40.960 --> 0:13:43.920 not a single hand will go up. Short of sometimes 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:45.640 you get an occasional hand it will go up and 0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:47.480 someone will say, well, if you had a gun to 0:13:47.520 --> 0:13:51.560 my head, right, But short of that, no normal person 0:13:51.600 --> 0:13:54.079 of sound mind would confess to a crime they didn't commit. 0:13:54.240 --> 0:13:57.560 And people use that personal belief about themselves as the 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:01.600 frame of reference. And so it's very, very unlikely that 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:04.079 you can get people easily to believe that an innocent 0:14:04.120 --> 0:14:06.480 person was induced to confess to something they didn't do, 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:11.800 and not just something the highest stakes crime in the system, murder. 0:14:11.920 --> 0:14:15.199 Right, So let's talk about this as it relates specifically 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.680 to what happened with Marty in the interrogation room. So 0:14:19.120 --> 0:14:22.600 here's Marty in a state of as we talked about, 0:14:22.680 --> 0:14:26.400 in a state of panic and shock and grief and 0:14:27.520 --> 0:14:31.400 you know, just spinning right, And as we discussed, he's 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:34.640 still a child, and the fact is a teenager, a 0:14:34.680 --> 0:14:39.800 young teenager. And so what happened, I mean, how did 0:14:40.160 --> 0:14:42.680 you know? Because his confession it's different than any of 0:14:42.720 --> 0:14:45.280 the other ones I've studied, right, because it may or 0:14:45.280 --> 0:14:48.640 may not have ever even actually happened. Right, Usually they 0:14:48.680 --> 0:14:51.560 actually get somebody to say something on video, or they'll 0:14:51.560 --> 0:14:55.280 get a written statement or something. But in Marty's case, 0:14:55.280 --> 0:14:58.040 it's much more. It's much more highly nuanced, isn't it. 0:14:58.160 --> 0:14:58.440 Yes? 0:14:58.560 --> 0:15:02.200 Yes, And in Marty's something that almost all of these 0:15:02.200 --> 0:15:04.200 cases have in common. You've got to ask yourself the 0:15:04.240 --> 0:15:08.160 first question, why did Marty, a seventeen year old without 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:11.240 a criminal record, without a history of violence, with good 0:15:11.280 --> 0:15:14.800 parents and good relationships and an affluent community, why would 0:15:14.840 --> 0:15:18.040 Marty kill his parents in a brutal way, in a 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:20.280 brutal in the most brutal of ways. And you have 0:15:20.400 --> 0:15:22.280 to ask yourself the question, how in God's name did 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:23.280 he become their suspect. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:25.360 Well, we haven't talked about that, but Marty, your parents 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.080 were beaten to death, is that right? 0:15:27.400 --> 0:15:32.840 There was a bludgeon instrument and a knife, and to 0:15:32.880 --> 0:15:35.920 this day neither one has been discovered. And there was 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:38.440 some forensic evidence which I can talk about. There was 0:15:38.520 --> 0:15:42.080 glove prints, so whoever did do this were wearing gloves 0:15:43.120 --> 0:15:45.160 that they still haven't found the gloves. So I mean, 0:15:45.200 --> 0:15:48.240 there's all these little things that actually the jury was 0:15:48.280 --> 0:15:51.480 aware of, but as you said, they chose just to ignore. 0:15:51.960 --> 0:15:54.320 So yeah, so we should believe that you killed your 0:15:54.360 --> 0:15:57.120 parents in the most vicious way at night and then 0:15:57.160 --> 0:15:59.080 went to sleep, and then waited till the morning and 0:15:59.080 --> 0:15:59.800 then called nine one. 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:01.800 And you know, most people said, well, you know, he 0:16:01.840 --> 0:16:04.240 did it for the money, because they thought my parents 0:16:04.240 --> 0:16:06.480 were affluent. The way the wills were structured, I would 0:16:06.520 --> 0:16:10.800 have gotten everything. And we later learned that law enforcement 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:13.320 never really understood the way the wills and never looked 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:15.440 into the way the wills were structured. But the way 0:16:15.480 --> 0:16:17.760 the wills were structured was that I wasn't going to 0:16:17.760 --> 0:16:21.600 benefit financially until I was twenty five and I was seventeen. 0:16:21.720 --> 0:16:23.160 So you know, as one of my aunts said, what 0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:25.040 was he supposed to do from seventeen to twenty five? 0:16:25.360 --> 0:16:26.160 Live on the streets. 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:28.840 So Marty's in the interrogation room, we know that they 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:32.520 have misled, as a probably nice way to put it, 0:16:32.600 --> 0:16:36.040 his his family guardian at this point, right, your godfather, 0:16:36.040 --> 0:16:38.600 who was also the only lawyer that was available to 0:16:38.640 --> 0:16:39.240 you at this time. 0:16:39.720 --> 0:16:41.640 They kind of mislet everybody though. I mean I had 0:16:41.680 --> 0:16:43.640 other cousins and aunts and uncles who were at the 0:16:43.640 --> 0:16:45.560 hospitals and they were live too, too. They were told 0:16:45.840 --> 0:16:47.480 Marty's on the way to the hospital, Marty's on the 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:48.600 way to the hospital, right. 0:16:48.520 --> 0:16:51.240 So they're basically doing everything they can to prevent you 0:16:51.280 --> 0:16:56.640 from having any responsible guardian or legal representative from being 0:16:56.640 --> 0:17:00.440 there to be able to help you in the in 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.160 the situation, to be able to that might be able 0:17:02.200 --> 0:17:04.400 to stand in the way of them getting the conviction 0:17:04.560 --> 0:17:06.399 that they wanted. Regardless of truth. 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:07.879 Yes, they weren't after the truth. 0:17:08.520 --> 0:17:10.679 There was no truth seeking here. I mean, you have 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:14.440 a man who was business partners with my father, half 0:17:14.440 --> 0:17:18.560 a million dollars involved, was there the night before. My 0:17:18.720 --> 0:17:21.679 father also had in the weeks prior, had demanded he 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:25.000 had two notes fifty thousand dollars. Back in the days 0:17:25.080 --> 0:17:29.440 after the murders, Jerry Struman cleaned out a joint bank account. 0:17:29.880 --> 0:17:34.640 He faked his death. He fled to California. He had 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:37.359 a hair weave back then, and he went to a 0:17:37.440 --> 0:17:40.880 club that he wasn't a member for. He had five 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:45.800 or six different aliases at that moment. But law enforcement 0:17:45.920 --> 0:17:48.200 never consider him suspect. And every time I tell people, 0:17:48.760 --> 0:17:50.760 you know, the average person would say, well, how is 0:17:50.800 --> 0:17:51.959 he not a suspect? 0:17:52.160 --> 0:17:53.600 I mean, you could have stopped that he faked his 0:17:53.640 --> 0:17:56.000 own death right there. If this was a TV show. 0:17:56.119 --> 0:17:59.200 People are changing the channel. They're like, Okay, this is done. 0:17:59.240 --> 0:18:01.080 I don't need to watch the is this is our guy. 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:08.959 We got him, so Saul. There he is in the 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.440 interrogation room. 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:15.480 Alone, alone, seventeen, not street wise, never been in trouble before, 0:18:15.680 --> 0:18:17.280 never had to worry about how do you behave when 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:18.440 you get picked up by police? 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:21.680 And couldn't he have just said no, no, no, no 0:18:21.680 --> 0:18:24.159 no not me? How could I what happened in his brain? 0:18:24.720 --> 0:18:26.359 And what oh, I can tell you very simply what 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:29.080 happened in his brain. He had done nothing wrong. And 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.679 the funny thing about innocent, innocent people is even if 0:18:32.720 --> 0:18:34.800 he even if they had read him as Miranda rights, 0:18:34.960 --> 0:18:35.840 he would have waived. 0:18:35.640 --> 0:18:37.000 Those rights right most people do. 0:18:37.080 --> 0:18:38.160 He would have waived those rights. 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:39.920 And he did nothing wrong. He did nothing wrong, So 0:18:39.920 --> 0:18:41.560 why would he worry about whether he had nothing? 0:18:42.080 --> 0:18:43.760 He had nothing to hide, He had nothing wrong, and 0:18:43.800 --> 0:18:46.880 so Miranda becomes not a safeguard that's particularly effective at 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:49.920 this point. He is now, and keep in mind, they've 0:18:49.920 --> 0:18:52.720 got him in police headquarters. The whole family is with 0:18:52.800 --> 0:18:56.320 his father, who is dying but still alive in the hospital. 0:18:56.680 --> 0:18:59.560 That's where Marty wants to be if you're looking for, 0:18:59.640 --> 0:19:02.440 what is to incentivize him to cooperate so that he 0:19:02.480 --> 0:19:04.200 can get out of there and get to the hospital. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:07.240 That's his incentive. He wants to be at the hospital. 0:19:07.680 --> 0:19:10.760 So he's already in a state where he's motivated to cooperate. 0:19:11.280 --> 0:19:13.920 And they start asking him questions about what he saw, 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.240 how he saw it, what had happened, and he gives 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:19.479 them answers, and the answers are consistent. They don't believe him, 0:19:19.480 --> 0:19:21.200 they tell him they don't believe him. They asked for 0:19:21.240 --> 0:19:22.399 the story to be told again. 0:19:22.600 --> 0:19:24.360 Right, he was in sleep, he woke up, he went 0:19:24.359 --> 0:19:26.240 down the hall, he found him, He called nine one one, 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.040 he held the towel, he followed instructions. Actually, not only 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:31.800 did any do anything wrong, he did anything right exactly. 0:19:31.880 --> 0:19:35.280 And they're searching for inconsistencies and they're calling him a liar, 0:19:35.400 --> 0:19:38.040 and they're not believing the story that he keeps telling 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.640 over and over again, and then they switch gears at 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:44.080 some point. Now keep in mind, I'm presenting this as 0:19:44.119 --> 0:19:47.840 if it's a chronology, but I have no idea, nobody 0:19:47.880 --> 0:19:51.280 has any idea what really happened because they didn't record 0:19:51.320 --> 0:19:51.880 the process. 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:53.840 That's something that we at the NIS's Project have been 0:19:53.880 --> 0:19:58.640 advocating for it for years. Every interrogation should be recorded. 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:01.600 There's no reason why shouldn't be, and every reason why 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.120 it should be if in fact what we're looking for 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:05.280 is the truth exactly. 0:20:05.320 --> 0:20:08.359