1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: This is Teddy tepod. Hi guys, who, We're back again 2 00:00:15,640 --> 00:00:19,120 Speaker 1: number three of Teddy tea Pod and I am really 3 00:00:19,320 --> 00:00:22,439 Speaker 1: revved up, like really revved up. I have like I 4 00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:24,759 Speaker 1: got here thirty minutes early because I just needed to 5 00:00:24,800 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: know all of the answers so many questions. Starting off 6 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: with narcissism. I have Dr Romani here with me who 7 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:37,639 Speaker 1: and then Jill is going to be co hosting with 8 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:41,599 Speaker 1: me today because I've heard she has some experience on 9 00:00:41,640 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: a topic which I tried googling and I couldn't find 10 00:00:44,520 --> 00:00:48,959 Speaker 1: that out. So you're gonna have to enlighten me. But 11 00:00:49,440 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: first and foremost, first question, if you're listening to this, 12 00:00:53,080 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 1: for you, what is a narcissist? Okay, so, a narcissist 13 00:00:57,800 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: A lot of times we think it's just the person 14 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:01,160 Speaker 1: who likes to look at the mirror and loves themselves. 15 00:01:01,160 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: It's actually something very different. These are people who lack empathy. 16 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:11,319 Speaker 1: They're really grandiose, they're entitled, they're arrogant, they're always seeking 17 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:15,400 Speaker 1: admiration and validation. They don't tolerate frustration well and they 18 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,399 Speaker 1: get really rageful. Uh. They don't really respect the rights 19 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: of other people. They're manipulative, They take advantage of other people, 20 00:01:22,440 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: not nice people. They sound like a real dream and 21 00:01:24,880 --> 00:01:27,440 Speaker 1: they can also sometimes be very victimy. They'll, you know, 22 00:01:27,520 --> 00:01:30,880 Speaker 1: they'll blame all of any issues that even they've caused. 23 00:01:31,080 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: They'll blame the world for them. They never take responsibility 24 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:39,319 Speaker 1: for anything. Okay, So going back on that, what creates 25 00:01:39,319 --> 00:01:42,520 Speaker 1: a narcissist, So at the core a narcissist is someone 26 00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:46,200 Speaker 1: who's really insecure. You know, we were told this as kids, 27 00:01:46,240 --> 00:01:48,720 Speaker 1: like the bullies are the insecure kids in some ways, well, 28 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: the adult bullies are also really insecure. That's what a 29 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,360 Speaker 1: mean person is, right, But what ages this normally start 30 00:01:54,400 --> 00:01:56,720 Speaker 1: for somebody. I Am not going to call someone out 31 00:01:56,720 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: as a narcissist until they're really in their early twenties. 32 00:01:59,200 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: And I'll tell you why. Our personalities keep developing through 33 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,760 Speaker 1: childhood and adolescence, and so some of what looks like 34 00:02:06,840 --> 00:02:10,960 Speaker 1: sort of useful stupidity could easily be labeled narcissism in 35 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: a seventeen year old. I tell those barons, wait and see. 36 00:02:15,240 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: But you know, sometimes when we replay it, we can see, yeah, 37 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:19,840 Speaker 1: this was not a very nice person all along, but 38 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,799 Speaker 1: you still have some chances to make some shifts in 39 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:24,520 Speaker 1: their teens by the time they're in their twenty, like 40 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:28,800 Speaker 1: around the jello mold is set, like they much you're 41 00:02:28,800 --> 00:02:32,200 Speaker 1: gonna do around narcissism because you also hear that it's 42 00:02:32,200 --> 00:02:34,720 Speaker 1: like kind of being overused now or somebody would be like, oh, 43 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: she's such an narcissist, or he's a narcissistic like with 44 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: no real backing. So what's the like the pivotal thing 45 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:43,799 Speaker 1: that you know this is an narcisist. The pivotal thing 46 00:02:43,880 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: is the absolute lack of regard for other people, and 47 00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 1: that comes out in these different ways, like I'm not 48 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: waiting in this line, why should have to wait in 49 00:02:50,639 --> 00:02:53,320 Speaker 1: this line? I'm me? You know, It's like that is, 50 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,440 Speaker 1: in fact, lack of empathy. It's not just someone who's 51 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 1: a jerkin entitled. They do not care that the other 52 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,040 Speaker 1: people have to wait an extra hour, but they to 53 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:01,639 Speaker 1: jump to the head of the line. But yet they're 54 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:05,960 Speaker 1: so charming. They are charming and charming, charismatic confident. I 55 00:03:05,960 --> 00:03:10,480 Speaker 1: always tell people, if you meet someone charismatic, runaway, run away, 56 00:03:11,480 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: and that's called the golden period. Well, the golden period 57 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 1: is a period we often also called love bombing, at 58 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: last anywhere from three weeks to three months. And in 59 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:25,760 Speaker 1: the love bombing sort of golden hour of a narcissistic relationship, 60 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: as it were, you are the center of their universe. 61 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:30,400 Speaker 1: In essence, you're like a butterfly and they're trying to 62 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: trap you under glass and once they've got you there, 63 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: they're just gonna put you up on the shelf and 64 00:03:33,840 --> 00:03:37,360 Speaker 1: forget about you with the rest of the butterflies. Yeah, okay, 65 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: So then in that what are like early signs or 66 00:03:41,480 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: red flags you can have if you're starting to get 67 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:46,840 Speaker 1: into a relationship with a narcissisms They don't listen and 68 00:03:46,880 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: they turn around and said, oh, I'm sorry, I have 69 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:50,920 Speaker 1: trouble listening cause I have a d h D. I'm like, 70 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:52,560 Speaker 1: you didn't have a d h D and I listened 71 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 1: to you talk for an hour and a half about 72 00:03:54,000 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: your crazy stuff. You know. So they don't listen, they 73 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: don't pay attention. There overfocused on their devices instead of 74 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: other people. They do expect to be going to the 75 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: head of the line. They don't like to wait, they 76 00:04:06,840 --> 00:04:09,840 Speaker 1: don't tolerate stress well, and most of us will make 77 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: excuses for them. They're under a lot of pressure at work, 78 00:04:12,760 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: their mom is sick. Those things happen, and we may 79 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,160 Speaker 1: not be graceful, but most of us catch ourselves and say, 80 00:04:18,160 --> 00:04:20,039 Speaker 1: you know what, I am so sorry. I was rude 81 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:21,919 Speaker 1: with you. My mom is sick. Da da da da 82 00:04:22,000 --> 00:04:25,119 Speaker 1: da versus. Everything is an excuse for them. They literally 83 00:04:25,200 --> 00:04:28,320 Speaker 1: weaponize everything going on around them into an excuse to 84 00:04:28,360 --> 00:04:30,320 Speaker 1: get away with what they want. And that comes while 85 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:34,000 Speaker 1: also making the other person feel bad. And it's exactly 86 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,000 Speaker 1: and then, but how are they able to cover it up? Oh? 87 00:04:37,000 --> 00:04:38,560 Speaker 1: So well, first of all, let's go back to charm 88 00:04:38,600 --> 00:04:40,839 Speaker 1: and charisma, which is the stinkiest perfume in the world. 89 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:44,880 Speaker 1: It covers up everything, so people often excuse them. They're 90 00:04:44,279 --> 00:04:49,119 Speaker 1: also quite successful. Narcissists make higher salaries than everybody else, 91 00:04:49,480 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: so they'll often pick up the check and they'll show 92 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: you a good time, so people will make excuses saying, well, gosh, 93 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: we're having such a good time and they did remember this, 94 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:00,640 Speaker 1: and they did do this. You get taken in by 95 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:02,680 Speaker 1: the charm, and the rest of us who are healthy 96 00:05:03,040 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 1: give people second chances, and we make excuses for people 97 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,240 Speaker 1: were really good at that. How longer to take you 98 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,640 Speaker 1: until you? Oh, I didn't know for years. Wow. Yeah, 99 00:05:13,560 --> 00:05:15,320 Speaker 1: And that's what I see in my clients is years 100 00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: and I feel like the charm everybody sees the charming 101 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:21,719 Speaker 1: side of them, but only a few select people see 102 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 1: that other side, the narcissistic side of this, like never apologizing. 103 00:05:26,720 --> 00:05:30,120 Speaker 1: Everything is always your fault, and so people don't realize, 104 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,320 Speaker 1: and so you're kind of left alone wondering, Okay, well 105 00:05:33,360 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 1: it's me. It must be me. I must be too sensitive, 106 00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:40,680 Speaker 1: and that's you gas lighting yourself. Gaslighting. There's a new 107 00:05:40,760 --> 00:05:44,839 Speaker 1: term I just recently learned. Can you explain gaslighting to everybody? 108 00:05:45,000 --> 00:05:50,960 Speaker 1: So gas lighting is when somebody questions your reality, questions 109 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,960 Speaker 1: your emotions to the point where that person feels confused. 110 00:05:53,960 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: So when somebody called her out and said you're too sensitive? 111 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,800 Speaker 1: Who was someone to say you're too sensitive? That is 112 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 1: ass lighting. That's a that's manipulating her reality. She had 113 00:06:03,279 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 1: a feeling about something, and somebody in essence was saying 114 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,240 Speaker 1: you shouldn't have had that feeling, you shouldn't feel anything 115 00:06:09,279 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: about this. Somebody's saying you're being too angry or that 116 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,920 Speaker 1: never happened. Those are all examples of gaslight. And after 117 00:06:15,960 --> 00:06:18,440 Speaker 1: repeated years of this, you really just believe it. I'm 118 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,280 Speaker 1: not kidding you. I've seen people who have lived through 119 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 1: twenty and thirty years of gas lighting, and at the 120 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:24,440 Speaker 1: end of this they look like they have post traumatic 121 00:06:24,480 --> 00:06:27,560 Speaker 1: stress disorder. Somebody messaged me about that, like, I was 122 00:06:27,600 --> 00:06:31,080 Speaker 1: with my husband for thirty years and I I need, 123 00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,360 Speaker 1: I need to know what to even do because at 124 00:06:33,360 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: this point out even know how to live my life anymore. 125 00:06:35,520 --> 00:06:41,240 Speaker 1: It's heartbreaking. It's absolutely heartbreaking. Do narcissists tend to always 126 00:06:41,360 --> 00:06:44,360 Speaker 1: end up with a codependent or does somebody become codependent 127 00:06:44,560 --> 00:06:46,800 Speaker 1: after being with an artist? I don't think they always do. 128 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:49,320 Speaker 1: I think a person who's quote unquote code dependent made 129 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: me more vulnerable to the narcissist tricks, meaning that they 130 00:06:52,760 --> 00:06:54,839 Speaker 1: may be more likely to go along for the ride, 131 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:57,599 Speaker 1: less likely to call them out, and more likely to 132 00:06:57,640 --> 00:06:59,919 Speaker 1: do more and more and more to please the narcissist. 133 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:04,119 Speaker 1: But narcissists sometimes end up with other narcissists. Narcissists sometimes 134 00:07:04,200 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: end up with healthy people who come from happy families, 135 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:09,440 Speaker 1: and that person from a happy family says, well, love 136 00:07:09,480 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: takes care of everything, and if I just love them enough, 137 00:07:12,200 --> 00:07:15,080 Speaker 1: this will all be okay. I don't know that that's codependent. 138 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: I mean, I think we want to be careful labeling 139 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:20,160 Speaker 1: the other person in a narcissistic relationship, thinking there must 140 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 1: be something wrong with them for putting up with it. 141 00:07:22,800 --> 00:07:25,200 Speaker 1: We are sold a bill of goods in our society 142 00:07:25,480 --> 00:07:30,040 Speaker 1: that somebody that charming, that charismatic, and that's successful can't 143 00:07:30,080 --> 00:07:32,200 Speaker 1: be a bad person. How do you know if you're 144 00:07:32,240 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: codependent or not? I think that when you when other 145 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: people start pointing the pattern out to you and you 146 00:07:38,160 --> 00:07:40,560 Speaker 1: still say no, no, no no, it's okay, it's okay. You 147 00:07:40,600 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: start the more you're making your cheating on you and no, no, no, 148 00:07:44,080 --> 00:07:47,760 Speaker 1: you're you're misreading that, or you know they're they're just friends, okay. 149 00:07:49,240 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 1: And what do you think in your relationship your dynamic was? 150 00:07:53,080 --> 00:07:56,000 Speaker 1: I felt that it was There was always an explanation 151 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: if I felt something was off. Can you give me 152 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:05,080 Speaker 1: an example, UM, if I was to find or if 153 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,800 Speaker 1: I was to see, you know, some somebody texting him 154 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: on his phone and it was you know, he was 155 00:08:11,280 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: on his phone a lot, and I would ask, you know, 156 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:16,080 Speaker 1: who are you texting? And he would automatically have this 157 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,320 Speaker 1: response of a name, and I'm like, why, why? Why 158 00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:23,040 Speaker 1: is she texting you, And he always was so quick 159 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: to have this explanation of why this person needed to 160 00:08:25,920 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 1: be talking to him at that very moment, and I 161 00:08:28,160 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: would just be like, oh, yeah, of course, because I 162 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,720 Speaker 1: just I completely trusted everything that was said, and so 163 00:08:32,880 --> 00:08:34,640 Speaker 1: like little things like that that you wouldn't think we're 164 00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: too big of a deal. They just added more and 165 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 1: more and more and more. Would he also say things like, 166 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:41,920 Speaker 1: you know, this is your issue if you don't trust me, 167 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:44,040 Speaker 1: why are you asking why I'm texting you? You know? 168 00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,640 Speaker 1: And you were the one you're you feel like you're right. 169 00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, I'm so sorry. You're the one who's 170 00:08:49,080 --> 00:08:53,160 Speaker 1: always apologizing for everything, even though you know in your 171 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,520 Speaker 1: heart that you didn't do anything wrong. But yet you're 172 00:08:55,559 --> 00:08:58,040 Speaker 1: the one constantly apologizing. And if somebody else was to 173 00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:00,560 Speaker 1: notice something, like some of my family was to say 174 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: something about him like legs they saw, I would then 175 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: get mad at the family, yes, and hide it from him. 176 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: So that so then this brings me my next question. 177 00:09:12,200 --> 00:09:15,319 Speaker 1: Are all narcissist cheaters? No, but a lot are a lot, 178 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 1: So keep in mind people cheating relationships for a range 179 00:09:17,840 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: of reasons. Some narcissists interestingly are They love playing the 180 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: hyper moral, hyper loyal card, Like they go the other 181 00:09:26,480 --> 00:09:29,439 Speaker 1: extreme and if they hear of even the tiniest transgression, 182 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: they become like completely judgmental and cruel. So they tend 183 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,160 Speaker 1: to take extremes. But what a narcissist does is they 184 00:09:37,240 --> 00:09:41,040 Speaker 1: choose whatever path is going to validate them and feed 185 00:09:41,080 --> 00:09:43,440 Speaker 1: their ego. So for you can see how cheating would work, Right, 186 00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: somebody pays attention to you, You're getting new narcissistic supply. 187 00:09:47,840 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: Isn't this great? You think you can get away with 188 00:09:49,800 --> 00:09:52,280 Speaker 1: it because they're entitled. They almost feel like they have 189 00:09:52,360 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: the right to have an inappropriate relationship with anybody they want, Like, 190 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:59,599 Speaker 1: who's going to stop me? I deserve this because I'm me. 191 00:10:02,320 --> 00:10:07,320 Speaker 1: The relationships that they have with other people, and is 192 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: it always just to benefit themselves, Like they're always looking 193 00:10:11,040 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 1: to use the other person for something. They're always looking 194 00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: to either feed their ego or protect their ego. Right, 195 00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:20,200 Speaker 1: so you know it's sort of using the example we're 196 00:10:20,320 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 1: having of cheating. And sometimes it's not even like they're 197 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: having sex, right, it's those inappropriate text messages and inappropriate 198 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,680 Speaker 1: times that they get together. It's a poor boundaries they're 199 00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: really bad at boundaries, because when your boundaries are tight, 200 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 1: you're not turning to someone for all this validation. You're like, let's, 201 00:10:34,440 --> 00:10:38,080 Speaker 1: you know, let's just stop there. So it's a it's 202 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:41,280 Speaker 1: always but yes, by and large, their relationships with other 203 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:44,000 Speaker 1: people serve almost solely to suit their needs. And I 204 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: hate to say this is even happens when they are parents. 205 00:10:46,080 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: People like what they're a parent. I'm like, yeah, and 206 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: watch this one go down, because that kid becomes their 207 00:10:50,800 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: source of narcissistic supply. Look at my kid, he plays soccer. 208 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:56,559 Speaker 1: Look at my daughter, she does ballet, you know, and 209 00:10:56,640 --> 00:11:01,480 Speaker 1: god forbid if that kid doesn't perform. Oh no, they 210 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 1: may reject them, they may escape go with them. They 211 00:11:04,040 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: most often it's not even that sinistry. They just kind 212 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: of ignore them. They get bored. They're really cute when 213 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:10,959 Speaker 1: they're tiny. Around six or seven, they start feeling like 214 00:11:11,000 --> 00:11:13,360 Speaker 1: a nuisance. And then what does that do to your fild. 215 00:11:13,559 --> 00:11:15,439 Speaker 1: You've got one or three paths you take if you've 216 00:11:15,440 --> 00:11:17,920 Speaker 1: had a narcissistic parent. I really see it come down 217 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:21,040 Speaker 1: to three paths. Path number one, the kid becomes really 218 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:24,959 Speaker 1: anxious as an adult. Path number two, the kid becomes 219 00:11:24,960 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: a narcissist as an adult. Path number three, we see 220 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:30,599 Speaker 1: people who go on to have disorders of what we 221 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: call regulations substance use, eating disorders, problems with spending, problems 222 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:40,000 Speaker 1: with managing their emotions, lashing out, managing any strong emotions. 223 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: Pick one, Pick one of those three paths, and sometimes 224 00:11:42,840 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: a person can have more than one more often than not. 225 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,760 Speaker 1: What I've seen in my work is people who have 226 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: a narcissistic parent become incredibly anxious, and they become anxious 227 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,079 Speaker 1: and self doubting and constantly seeking reassurance as adults. This 228 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: is great, This is like group therapy during my lunch show. 229 00:11:59,320 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: Really enjoy thanks so and and and saying that when 230 00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: you're dealing, let's say, with a narcissistic parent or husband 231 00:12:09,720 --> 00:12:13,679 Speaker 1: or wife or whomever it is, they don't know they're 232 00:12:13,679 --> 00:12:16,760 Speaker 1: a narcissist, do they really not know? They really don't know. 233 00:12:16,920 --> 00:12:19,319 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, it's it's imagine if you had 234 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: a broken arm, you would do everything you could to 235 00:12:21,600 --> 00:12:23,760 Speaker 1: protect that bone, you get a cast on it. That's 236 00:12:23,760 --> 00:12:25,760 Speaker 1: how they are with their egos. But they're not as 237 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: aware that everything they're doing is to protect this fragile core. 238 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: So they don't have that much insight into what they're 239 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,600 Speaker 1: doing to other people because they don't pay attention to 240 00:12:34,640 --> 00:12:38,880 Speaker 1: other people. Other people only serve the purpose of helping them. 241 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: This water bottle only serves a function of giving me water. 242 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: Once the waters out of it, I'm gonna throw it out. 243 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: That's what they do with people. But then I also 244 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:51,200 Speaker 1: read that. I also read that um narcissists if they 245 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:53,480 Speaker 1: if they have a wife or somebody that leaves them, 246 00:12:53,960 --> 00:12:57,560 Speaker 1: then they're even worse to their next person. Well, you 247 00:12:57,600 --> 00:12:59,680 Speaker 1: know that's people ask me, because I'd say about a 248 00:12:59,760 --> 00:13:02,440 Speaker 1: third of my practice is narcissistic clients. Believe it or not, 249 00:13:02,480 --> 00:13:05,800 Speaker 1: I don't. Yeah, it's can be gnarly, but I'll tell you. 250 00:13:05,840 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: Everyone's like, well, then why the heck did they come 251 00:13:07,280 --> 00:13:09,520 Speaker 1: in if they don't have insight? Because something goes wrong 252 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:12,480 Speaker 1: in their life. Someone files a lawsuit, they lose a job, 253 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,720 Speaker 1: their their spouse or partner leaves them, their kid no 254 00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: longer speaks to them. Something goes wrong and they're not 255 00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:21,160 Speaker 1: They're confused as to why this happens, and then they 256 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: come in. I'm like, what are exactly are you confused about? 257 00:13:24,320 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 1: I wouldn't be speaking to you either, you know, so 258 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:29,800 Speaker 1: they don't get it. They it's almost like they forget, 259 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,240 Speaker 1: they forget the harm. It's like every conversation with them 260 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:35,679 Speaker 1: is like groundhog Day, like we just went through this 261 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 1: because to them, an apology is permission. They're like, Okay, 262 00:13:40,200 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: I said sorry, so now I can go do it again, 263 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,120 Speaker 1: and you've forgiven them, so like this is great. I 264 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:46,040 Speaker 1: can keep making this mistake and this fool is going 265 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:49,360 Speaker 1: to keep coming back around. So they just don't get it. 266 00:13:49,360 --> 00:13:50,920 Speaker 1: They don't see it. And I'll be honest with you, 267 00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 1: the biggest mistake you could ever make is calling a 268 00:13:53,640 --> 00:13:56,680 Speaker 1: narcissist out because that's your that's your a sus bades 269 00:13:56,760 --> 00:13:58,719 Speaker 1: right there. You do not want them to know, you know, 270 00:13:58,960 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: because once you do that, they are going to take 271 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: the gloves off. Did you do that? And what happened? Well? 272 00:14:06,920 --> 00:14:11,720 Speaker 1: I really struggled with after everything happened, I felt, what's 273 00:14:11,760 --> 00:14:17,120 Speaker 1: everything happened? Sorry? We dated and once I like confronted 274 00:14:17,160 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: him about a whole bunch of things and you know, 275 00:14:19,200 --> 00:14:22,080 Speaker 1: basically figured out the type of person that he was, 276 00:14:22,920 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 1: I left feeling incredibly weak and I felt like, how 277 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:30,280 Speaker 1: could I have let this happen? How could I have 278 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 1: fallen for this when in fact, like three years and 279 00:14:34,000 --> 00:14:37,720 Speaker 1: years of therapy and you know, working through this, you 280 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:41,400 Speaker 1: can't really you can't blame yourself because you never know 281 00:14:41,440 --> 00:14:44,160 Speaker 1: who this person is going to go after. And so 282 00:14:44,280 --> 00:14:46,040 Speaker 1: that was a real struggle for me, was feeling like 283 00:14:46,080 --> 00:14:48,000 Speaker 1: it was my fault. How could I have let how 284 00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:49,800 Speaker 1: could I have fallen for this guy? But I'm going 285 00:14:49,880 --> 00:14:51,960 Speaker 1: to stay with him for so long? After being with 286 00:14:51,960 --> 00:14:54,760 Speaker 1: the narcissist so long, it did such a number on you. 287 00:14:54,760 --> 00:14:57,440 Speaker 1: You got so masterful at blaming yourself for everything. You 288 00:14:57,480 --> 00:14:59,680 Speaker 1: even blame yourself for even getting in it and staying 289 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: in it. Yeah, and I still do, and even like 290 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:06,520 Speaker 1: in future relationships, thinking like, oh, well, nope, he's too confident. Nope, 291 00:15:06,520 --> 00:15:08,880 Speaker 1: you can't go there. And so I find myself, you know, 292 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:13,040 Speaker 1: noticing teeny tiny little things and people when it's definitely 293 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: affected me for future relationships for sure, it definitely leaves 294 00:15:16,520 --> 00:15:19,520 Speaker 1: a long echo. And then when you see somebody so 295 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: like one of my best friends her husband now about 296 00:15:22,360 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: to be ex husband for sure, Like from the moment 297 00:15:25,640 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 1: I met him, I was like, this seems like a 298 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:31,280 Speaker 1: narcissist to me. But I've also seen him, you know, 299 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: get caught for cheating. Are these different things have happened 300 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 1: and I've seen him like break down to her like 301 00:15:37,680 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: I am so sorry, you are everything to me and 302 00:15:40,040 --> 00:15:44,880 Speaker 1: do this whole big show. Is that all just a show? 303 00:15:45,160 --> 00:15:47,400 Speaker 1: Or is there any feeling of remorse? Earth they're just 304 00:15:47,480 --> 00:15:49,400 Speaker 1: feeling of getting caught or do they even care that 305 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,000 Speaker 1: they got caught? It's a show with a function. So 306 00:15:52,040 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: what I mean by that is they narcissist is not 307 00:15:55,880 --> 00:15:59,240 Speaker 1: a psychopath. There's a difference than contessa. You also tell 308 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: me the difference between narcissist. All right, I will tell 309 00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 1: you the difference that I'm gonna go back to your question. 310 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 1: So narcissist, psychopath, sociopath alright, a little bit different? All three? Okay. 311 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:13,040 Speaker 1: A narcissist actually does feel remorse, and they particularly feel remorse, 312 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 1: like they know they can look at someone's face and say, well, 313 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: that wasn't a good thing to do, like a little kid. 314 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:19,320 Speaker 1: Like they can see when they break something that their 315 00:16:19,360 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: mom's upset. They're like, oh, I shouldn't have picked up 316 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: that glass. She told me not to. Psychopath does not 317 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 1: feel that they will they'll shoot you point blank and 318 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 1: go eat lunch like that. That's and the narcissists won't 319 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: do that. Oh my god, we're gonna do with the body. 320 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: I don't know, they'll get really worked up. Okay, so 321 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:36,160 Speaker 1: when they throw you know, please don't leave me, DADAA. 322 00:16:36,240 --> 00:16:39,119 Speaker 1: A lot of that's driven by shame. They the narcissist 323 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 1: knows they are going to get publicly called out. I 324 00:16:42,360 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: think that narcissist was originally like neglected or you know, 325 00:16:46,320 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: there's different ways a person because gets to be narcissistic. 326 00:16:49,320 --> 00:16:51,360 Speaker 1: We do know it starts early in life. It's believed 327 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 1: that people are narcissistic didn't have the opportunity to create 328 00:16:54,320 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: a really secure attachment to a caregiver like a mom 329 00:16:56,920 --> 00:16:59,840 Speaker 1: or a dad. Sometimes they're raised by narcissist, Like I said, 330 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 1: times they're raised in homes where the parents are just 331 00:17:02,040 --> 00:17:04,560 Speaker 1: not a tune. That a parent might be struggling with addiction, 332 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,200 Speaker 1: a parent may be struggling with anything. The household is 333 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:09,879 Speaker 1: characterized by chaos for some reason. When you have a 334 00:17:10,000 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 1: really really sort of mean, authoritarian parent, which many people 335 00:17:13,800 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: did in their dads for generations, that that can breed narcissism. 336 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:19,840 Speaker 1: But then when you add to that a child who 337 00:17:19,840 --> 00:17:22,000 Speaker 1: may be spoiled, like in terms of material stuff, you 338 00:17:22,040 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: can have anything you want. Here's a phone, here, here's 339 00:17:24,000 --> 00:17:26,520 Speaker 1: a car, here's this, here's that. But they never get 340 00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: their emotional needs met. So when that child has real emotion, 341 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: they're really sad, they're really confused. There's no adults anywhere 342 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,680 Speaker 1: to be found. You need a new phone, They're right there. 343 00:17:35,880 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 1: You want to go on a fancy vacation and post 344 00:17:37,680 --> 00:17:39,840 Speaker 1: pictures to Instagram, Mom and dad are on it. But 345 00:17:39,880 --> 00:17:43,920 Speaker 1: when there's a real emotional need, these they are completely malnourished. 346 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,480 Speaker 1: So by the time they get into adulthood, they learned 347 00:17:46,520 --> 00:17:49,600 Speaker 1: that superficial, vain things will feed that emptiness that lives 348 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: inside of them. They don't know how to regulate, and 349 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:53,960 Speaker 1: they never learned how to have empathy for other people. 350 00:17:54,200 --> 00:17:55,879 Speaker 1: You don't teach your kid empathy by the age of 351 00:17:55,920 --> 00:17:59,399 Speaker 1: seven or eight, you're screwed. And then I have a question, 352 00:17:59,480 --> 00:18:01,359 Speaker 1: So I understand if you have a you know, a 353 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:03,440 Speaker 1: husband or a wife or a boyfriend and girlfriend that's 354 00:18:03,440 --> 00:18:06,280 Speaker 1: a narcissist, and you finally figure out a way to 355 00:18:06,320 --> 00:18:09,800 Speaker 1: get away and do treatment on yourself to try to 356 00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:12,439 Speaker 1: get over the pain of like the PTSD. But what 357 00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:14,840 Speaker 1: if it is apparent. If it's apparent, I mean, in fact, 358 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: that's something I take on quite a bit in this 359 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 1: new book. If it is apparent, you can't You may 360 00:18:18,760 --> 00:18:20,840 Speaker 1: not be able to divorce your parents. And the hard 361 00:18:20,880 --> 00:18:24,560 Speaker 1: thing is them being narcissistic left real echoes in your 362 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:26,679 Speaker 1: own life, which is hard to even reflect on how 363 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:30,000 Speaker 1: this affected you. But you can set boundaries, and I 364 00:18:30,080 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: have worked with many clients on many different ways. Sometimes 365 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:34,919 Speaker 1: people set a time or they their parents are too 366 00:18:34,960 --> 00:18:36,480 Speaker 1: old to know that that's not the phone ringing that 367 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,240 Speaker 1: that's the time or going off, and they said it 368 00:18:38,280 --> 00:18:39,399 Speaker 1: for an hour, an hour and a half, the thing 369 00:18:39,440 --> 00:18:40,560 Speaker 1: goes off, like you know what, I got it, This 370 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:43,040 Speaker 1: is an important call, and they get out. They come 371 00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: up with a list of topics that are not controversial. 372 00:18:45,480 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: How's the weather? Did you see they're making a new 373 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,159 Speaker 1: grocery store? Can you believe the neighbors painted their mailbox red? Like? 374 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:56,120 Speaker 1: Really keeping it neutral? The parents, the narcissist gets frustrated 375 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: when you change your game like that. Because narcissistic parents 376 00:18:59,040 --> 00:19:01,760 Speaker 1: can often be jel lists of their adult kids. They 377 00:19:01,760 --> 00:19:05,520 Speaker 1: can covet their lives. The narcissistic parents will often play 378 00:19:05,520 --> 00:19:08,199 Speaker 1: the victim, so if you take away their ability to 379 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: do that anymore, they'll often feel like, oh, here you 380 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:14,439 Speaker 1: are trying. In fact, I've had numerous clients tell me, oh, 381 00:19:14,640 --> 00:19:16,640 Speaker 1: what's your shrink teacher to talk to me like this? 382 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 1: You know, so they really are like they notice the 383 00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:22,120 Speaker 1: change in the temperature. Because a narcissist does well when 384 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:24,199 Speaker 1: there's a fight going on, so they're often gunning for 385 00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,360 Speaker 1: a fight, right. They come back always too. You can 386 00:19:27,400 --> 00:19:30,800 Speaker 1: have the worst fights with them that you're like, whoa, 387 00:19:30,960 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: this is gnarly, and they are back the next day 388 00:19:34,359 --> 00:19:38,159 Speaker 1: like it didn't happen, and that's that that's happen. And 389 00:19:38,200 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: if you want to talk about it again, they don't 390 00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,600 Speaker 1: want to. And it's almost like they don't even remember 391 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,960 Speaker 1: it happened. But they'll remember it if it's convenient to 392 00:19:45,000 --> 00:19:47,160 Speaker 1: remember one mean thing you said in the conversation. They've 393 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,719 Speaker 1: got this amazing evolved in their brain. So and then 394 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,120 Speaker 1: they also kind of know what your weaknesses are, right, 395 00:19:55,160 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: and then they'll just tummel them and tell because I mean, 396 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:00,479 Speaker 1: that's the thing about they are able to pay a tension, 397 00:20:00,720 --> 00:20:02,600 Speaker 1: you know, if they're able to pay close enough attention 398 00:20:02,640 --> 00:20:05,119 Speaker 1: to mine out your weaknesses to use them against you. 399 00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: They're able to. They're just only paying attention for their 400 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,360 Speaker 1: own benefit. But so I tell you know, many people say, 401 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:14,080 Speaker 1: my mom's and narcissist, my dad's a narcissist. But I 402 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:15,720 Speaker 1: really adore my siblings and I want to go to 403 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,240 Speaker 1: Thanksgiving dinner, And so I say, I set them ground 404 00:20:18,280 --> 00:20:20,480 Speaker 1: rules on like just stick to the neutral topics on 405 00:20:20,520 --> 00:20:24,919 Speaker 1: the list, set boundaries, give yourself breaks, don't stay in 406 00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:27,560 Speaker 1: the house with them, like you know things you can do, 407 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 1: so you don't. You know, it's still probably gonna get 408 00:20:29,560 --> 00:20:31,880 Speaker 1: to an argument, but this time you'll understand the why 409 00:20:31,920 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: instead of feeling like, why doesn't my mom or dad 410 00:20:34,040 --> 00:20:36,639 Speaker 1: love me? You know what's sadly, it's sort of like 411 00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:40,479 Speaker 1: this more empty, superficial version of love. Teach yourself, this 412 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:43,119 Speaker 1: isn't about you. Maybe they sort of quote unquote did 413 00:20:43,119 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: the best they could, but don't personalize that this was 414 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:47,320 Speaker 1: them not being a fit parent. It's not about you 415 00:20:47,359 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: not being a fit child. All right, guys, we've got 416 00:20:50,400 --> 00:20:53,080 Speaker 1: to take a break. But I want to dig into 417 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:57,159 Speaker 1: like what drives people to be, Like we're attracted to 418 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: the narcissist. Okay, so we're back with Dr Romani and 419 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:13,800 Speaker 1: also Jil and we're on the topic of narcissism and 420 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:19,480 Speaker 1: coming back what drives somebody to almost always go to 421 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 1: a narcissist. You know a lot of people will say 422 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: when they meet a narcissist, they feel so much chemistry, 423 00:21:25,840 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 1: we have a magical connection. I've never felt like this 424 00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 1: again went before. When I hear that, I tell my client, 425 00:21:32,280 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 1: a right, let's put the brakes on this real fast, 426 00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: because that's often a sign that the thing that's being 427 00:21:37,600 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: activated is an ancient script, some kind of early form 428 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: of invalidation you experience that you're trying to work through. 429 00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:47,719 Speaker 1: And in fact, a brilliant woman I know Dr Pamela 430 00:21:47,760 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: Rigan I work with, who's a relationship researcher. You know, 431 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:53,520 Speaker 1: she said that what people call chemistry is actually that 432 00:21:53,600 --> 00:21:56,600 Speaker 1: ancient familiarity of the past, and you just keep playing 433 00:21:56,600 --> 00:21:59,400 Speaker 1: out that dysfunctional story over and over again instead of saying, Wow, 434 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,480 Speaker 1: this is a functional love story, like this is a 435 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,640 Speaker 1: magical love story. Why because it's almost nostalgic, it's so ancient, 436 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,920 Speaker 1: like you're chasing the higher, you're chasing the old story 437 00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 1: like this time, I'll get dad to love me, you know, 438 00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,320 Speaker 1: and you keep finding lots of rejecting partners and you 439 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:16,080 Speaker 1: this time, this time, I'm going to get it right. 440 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 1: Instead of realizing like that was Dad's story, You're you're 441 00:22:19,320 --> 00:22:23,040 Speaker 1: all good. You're confusing too, because they do love you 442 00:22:23,080 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: at first, they show that, but they're What it is 443 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,679 Speaker 1: is it's it's it's much like a baby likes to 444 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 1: be swaddled and picked up. It's an overwhelming experience so 445 00:22:32,480 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: that if anyone else comes along and it's almost like 446 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:37,200 Speaker 1: a soft pedal dating experience and it's not so connecting 447 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,920 Speaker 1: people like, well this isn't exciting. I think it's probably healthy. 448 00:22:41,600 --> 00:22:43,679 Speaker 1: And I have a question if that is you, for 449 00:22:43,840 --> 00:22:47,720 Speaker 1: like my listeners, how do you start to equip yourself 450 00:22:47,760 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: to not make those same mistakes starting I don't know 451 00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,240 Speaker 1: if you call them mistakes, but they're not mistakes that 452 00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:55,560 Speaker 1: you know what it is. Become aware of your backstory 453 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:57,639 Speaker 1: because a lot of people almost want to maintain a 454 00:22:57,680 --> 00:23:00,239 Speaker 1: fairy tale of their family of origin, like we were 455 00:23:00,240 --> 00:23:02,560 Speaker 1: a great family and everything's great and like yeah, everyone 456 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:04,919 Speaker 1: kind of got it, or they paint this picture and 457 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:07,159 Speaker 1: they don't really look into what did that do to 458 00:23:07,200 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 1: them as a kid, how often they were trying to 459 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: win their parents over. You've got to know where where 460 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: the minds are buried so you don't step on them. 461 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: You know, you've got to know what it is about 462 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,239 Speaker 1: your backstory that makes you vulnerable. Number one. Number two 463 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:22,960 Speaker 1: listening to something like this, reading about this, knowing that 464 00:23:23,040 --> 00:23:25,760 Speaker 1: this pattern is toxic, and no, you are not going 465 00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:28,200 Speaker 1: to be the one to magically turn the frog into 466 00:23:28,200 --> 00:23:31,040 Speaker 1: a prince. It doesn't work that way for the people 467 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:34,080 Speaker 1: listening that, like, can't afford to go to therapy or 468 00:23:34,080 --> 00:23:36,000 Speaker 1: do those types of things. Are there certain books or 469 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: anything that you recommend While I'm going to be a narcissist, 470 00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,240 Speaker 1: I'm going to mention my own I actually do think 471 00:23:44,359 --> 00:23:46,560 Speaker 1: my I've been I've been a professor for years, so 472 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: actually right, I know my students don't love to read, 473 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: so I try to write in a way like if 474 00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:51,320 Speaker 1: I can get them to read, I get anyone to read. 475 00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: So I have two books on this, one called Should 476 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:55,600 Speaker 1: I Stay or Should I Go? Surviving a Relationship with 477 00:23:55,640 --> 00:23:58,159 Speaker 1: the Narcissist, And the other book is called Don't You 478 00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,480 Speaker 1: Know Who I Am? How to Stay? Saying in an 479 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:04,359 Speaker 1: era of narcissism, entitlement, and incivility. Between those two books, 480 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 1: you'll understand not only intimate relationship, but also all of 481 00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,920 Speaker 1: the other kinds of relationships and why this is becoming 482 00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,399 Speaker 1: more and more common in our world. Than what to 483 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,520 Speaker 1: do about it. There's also tons of other good books. 484 00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:18,760 Speaker 1: If you put narcissism into Amazon, it's like it's a tsunami. 485 00:24:19,000 --> 00:24:21,920 Speaker 1: There's also really great podcast There's shows like this one 486 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: you're doing today. I have a YouTube channel um on 487 00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,439 Speaker 1: exactly on this and we have tons of content. So 488 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,080 Speaker 1: the content is out there, and it's amazing how many 489 00:24:30,080 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: people are self educating on this topic. And may I 490 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,760 Speaker 1: ask you a personal question? I don't know if I 491 00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:39,040 Speaker 1: wanted to ask that. Do you have personal experience studying? Yeah, 492 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: you want to know about drugs, talk about and talk 493 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:43,000 Speaker 1: to an old drugging, you know, and if you want 494 00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: to don't want to know about narcissism. Absolutely, I mean, 495 00:24:45,320 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: and this has happened to me in professional spheres and 496 00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,480 Speaker 1: family spheres and professional spheres, and I began to really 497 00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,439 Speaker 1: doubt myself. I'm like, wow, maybe this is because I'm 498 00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:54,840 Speaker 1: this And I thought, no, there's some and then I 499 00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 1: got into doing it in my research. I actually my 500 00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: university based research got to be about this particular topic. 501 00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,960 Speaker 1: And then all the pieces came sort of sliding in together, 502 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: and it was like now I see it more and 503 00:25:05,320 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 1: more and more of my clients here in l A 504 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,280 Speaker 1: kept coming in and telling me the same story about 505 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: their marriages something, and I kept writing them emails like, okay, 506 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 1: just a review what we did. And I said, I 507 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,200 Speaker 1: keep writing the same email over and over again. I 508 00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:17,800 Speaker 1: might as well write a book. That's where that second 509 00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:21,959 Speaker 1: book came from. So on that same token, Like a 510 00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:24,000 Speaker 1: lot of people. I did something on my answer story 511 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 1: that said, just like, ask me your questions on narcissism, 512 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,960 Speaker 1: and I had hundreds of people right in, I'm married 513 00:25:29,960 --> 00:25:32,680 Speaker 1: to a narcissist. Yes, so many people. What do I do? 514 00:25:32,720 --> 00:25:34,199 Speaker 1: But like, really, what do you do? You have a 515 00:25:34,240 --> 00:25:37,760 Speaker 1: family together, you love the person you have. I mean 516 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:39,640 Speaker 1: a lot of them are saying, we have really good 517 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: times together and then there's really dark times. But what 518 00:25:42,640 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 1: do you do? Is there any hope of a happy life? 519 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:48,920 Speaker 1: Canna narcissism a narcissist? Be happy? The best thing I 520 00:25:48,960 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 1: can tell them this is going to sound like the 521 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,760 Speaker 1: most awful thing to hear is you've got to keep 522 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 1: your expectations realistic. When you're having a good day, ride 523 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: that wave out and then know that there's probably going 524 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:01,000 Speaker 1: to be a series of rainy days. You know that 525 00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,719 Speaker 1: your trust may get broken. Um, but the expectations need 526 00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:06,760 Speaker 1: to be realistic. I think a lot of times people 527 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:09,200 Speaker 1: want an explanation, why are you like this? You're never 528 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:11,320 Speaker 1: going to get that explanation. You're never going to get it. 529 00:26:11,560 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: They don't get it themselves, and so there's a lot 530 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:18,000 Speaker 1: of frustration. But I think the biggest issue becomes from 531 00:26:18,000 --> 00:26:20,200 Speaker 1: the fact that they believe they can change this person. 532 00:26:20,560 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: If I lose weight, if I if I'm nicer, if 533 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:26,000 Speaker 1: I keep the house cleaner, if I get more money, 534 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 1: if I don't work, if I raise the kids better, 535 00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 1: if we can I mean, I've heard every possible trick. 536 00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: People have tried to say, maybe if I do this, 537 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 1: then no, they're never going to change. In fact, the 538 00:26:36,440 --> 00:26:39,360 Speaker 1: person doing all this stuff is changing. But the narcissis. 539 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,200 Speaker 1: Narcissism actually is like it's like the weather in California, 540 00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:44,720 Speaker 1: Like it's kind of always the same. It's just very 541 00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:48,600 Speaker 1: steady and it and it's It's unchangeability in some ways 542 00:26:48,600 --> 00:26:51,000 Speaker 1: makes it manageable because, you know, how do you start 543 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:54,840 Speaker 1: disarming a narcissist. You don't fall for their tricks and traps. 544 00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,199 Speaker 1: You need to be comfortable with your own reality. The 545 00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: only way someone can gaslight you is because you are 546 00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:04,800 Speaker 1: willing to doubt your own reality. No. Yeah, and if 547 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:06,679 Speaker 1: somebody tells me this guy is purple, I'm like, no, 548 00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,440 Speaker 1: I'm doubling down on the fact that the sky is blue. 549 00:27:09,440 --> 00:27:11,840 Speaker 1: And if you have a problem with that, I'm not weird. Good. 550 00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: How do they react to that? When you sort of 551 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,680 Speaker 1: stand up for yourself more, um, sometimes they get scared. 552 00:27:16,840 --> 00:27:20,679 Speaker 1: They're almost like the wicked witch, you know, like they're like, oh, okay, 553 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:22,040 Speaker 1: you know, and they will, especially if you do it 554 00:27:22,040 --> 00:27:24,159 Speaker 1: early in the game. You had even said, like, you know, 555 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,919 Speaker 1: we had talked earlier, what would attracts the person. One 556 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,440 Speaker 1: thing they don't like at first, they'll say, oh, you're 557 00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: being a little playful. They're going to keep trying to 558 00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 1: seek out your vulnerabilities. If you don't know that you're 559 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: going into Mortal Kombat, you're not going to be ready 560 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: for this. But if you know what you're doing, it's 561 00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 1: actually very interesting to spar with them. But the key 562 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:45,359 Speaker 1: piece is to not feed the beast. You don't you 563 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:47,280 Speaker 1: don't validate them, you don't give them anything, and then 564 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: they're going to get bored of you, right, you know, 565 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:50,640 Speaker 1: they're just gonna move on to the next person. I'm 566 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: not getting anything here. You're not telling me I'm great, 567 00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: you're not making things happen for me, you're not getting 568 00:27:54,800 --> 00:27:57,480 Speaker 1: me Lakers tickets, like, there's nothing happening in this relationship. 569 00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: So I'm out. And but once you're in it for 570 00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:03,080 Speaker 1: a long time, they know they can get things from you, 571 00:28:03,560 --> 00:28:05,400 Speaker 1: so it really really gets hard. And I'll be honest 572 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: with you. Some people stay married to narcissists not because 573 00:28:07,760 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: they love them, but because they don't want to co 574 00:28:10,119 --> 00:28:11,880 Speaker 1: parent with them and they don't want to share custody. 575 00:28:11,920 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: They don't want the kids to be alone with the 576 00:28:13,400 --> 00:28:15,800 Speaker 1: narcissistic parents just because they feel like the parent is 577 00:28:15,840 --> 00:28:18,920 Speaker 1: just not a good parent. And if they are alone 578 00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: with their kids, what are some things that are going 579 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,679 Speaker 1: to happen. They get bored with them, they get irritated 580 00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 1: with them, They may say bad things about the other parents, 581 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:28,879 Speaker 1: you know, like whereas in any divorce, no matter how 582 00:28:28,960 --> 00:28:31,720 Speaker 1: much you may dislike your ex, your responsibility to your 583 00:28:31,760 --> 00:28:34,480 Speaker 1: parents is to protect the parents. And you know, the 584 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,440 Speaker 1: the child's eyes of the parent in essence like their 585 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: view of the parent, and narcissistic parents will have no 586 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: problem completely doing a number on the other parent trying 587 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: to win them over. So normal to be a little 588 00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 1: bit afraid of the narcissist, like I have a lot 589 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 1: of fear, or like I always feel like I'm walking 590 00:28:52,040 --> 00:28:54,720 Speaker 1: on eggshells. Well, the walking the eggshells piece absolutely, because 591 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: you never know what's going to set them off because 592 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:59,720 Speaker 1: they're so insecure, they're very hyper sensitive. So like the 593 00:29:00,080 --> 00:29:04,080 Speaker 1: hiniest little thing like oh, that's interesting, I love that tie. 594 00:29:04,160 --> 00:29:06,640 Speaker 1: You wore it till last week's dinner. What do you mean? 595 00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:07,960 Speaker 1: What do you trying? What do you try to say? 596 00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: I only have one tie, Like, you know what, I 597 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,080 Speaker 1: have a thousand ties? You know what talent this? I'm 598 00:29:12,080 --> 00:29:13,960 Speaker 1: not going on this dinner, you know, I'm like I 599 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: just said you. But they do sort of do that 600 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,880 Speaker 1: thing too, where they're like, I'm done talking, I'm done talking. 601 00:29:19,960 --> 00:29:22,800 Speaker 1: It's called stonewalling, and that's actually one of the signs 602 00:29:22,840 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: that a relationship is kind of coming to an end. Yeah. 603 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:30,160 Speaker 1: So if you're in that place where you are being 604 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 1: stone walled, you have kids, you're afraid to co parent, 605 00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 1: what do you do? You get therapy, you join support groups. 606 00:29:39,200 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: You realize that kids do move out of the house, 607 00:29:41,120 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: hopefully in most cases when they're eighteen. It's gonna be 608 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,960 Speaker 1: a long ride. I've watched parents white knuckle this stuff 609 00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:47,959 Speaker 1: for sixteen years, Like I'm not going to sugarcoat this 610 00:29:48,200 --> 00:29:50,680 Speaker 1: and say some magical anti narcissist fairy is going to 611 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:53,280 Speaker 1: come fluttering down and make it all better. You signed 612 00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:56,360 Speaker 1: up for something rough. My My goal in my work 613 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:58,479 Speaker 1: is to prevent people from getting into marriages like this 614 00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:00,600 Speaker 1: in the first place, to understand what they're are dealing with. 615 00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: But in fact, people there was a research study done 616 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,040 Speaker 1: and people who are dating are more likely to rate 617 00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: a narcissist as a better marriage partner than somebody who's not. 618 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:12,040 Speaker 1: Why because the narcissists looks so much better on paper, 619 00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: and I like, you feel amazing sometimes sometimes and it's 620 00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: the sometimes it makes it like an addiction. You're chasing 621 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,720 Speaker 1: the high, like I want to feel like I felt 622 00:30:21,760 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: like last Saturday, you know, so instead of somebody who 623 00:30:24,720 --> 00:30:26,440 Speaker 1: makes you feel good all the time, and somebody's are 624 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 1: like every day it's good, So it's not interesting. But 625 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:31,719 Speaker 1: when you have those ups and downs, it's addiction. So 626 00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:34,360 Speaker 1: if if you're listening to if somebody's listening to this 627 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,880 Speaker 1: right now and they're thinking, could I potentially be a narcissist? 628 00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:40,960 Speaker 1: How do you self evaluate in any way? You know 629 00:30:41,000 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: what I say, First of all, bravo to you for 630 00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: even considering it. And I've had many clients come to 631 00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: me and say, you know what, I'm not nice to 632 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,640 Speaker 1: other people. I was raised by these people who told me, like, 633 00:30:50,720 --> 00:30:53,400 Speaker 1: you know, other people's feelings are b s, don't concern 634 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:55,200 Speaker 1: yourself with them, all that sort of thing, and so 635 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 1: they really minimize That's how they were raised. Now they're 636 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,600 Speaker 1: adults and realizing they can't get into a healthy relationship 637 00:31:00,600 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 1: and they feel like their lives are really impoverished as 638 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: a result. It's a slow burn with them. I mean, 639 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: we can only get so far. This is like somebody 640 00:31:07,720 --> 00:31:09,479 Speaker 1: who's never used their legs and we're trying to get 641 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: them to use their legs for the first time. It's 642 00:31:11,520 --> 00:31:14,719 Speaker 1: it's tough. And so when people start realizing they may 643 00:31:14,720 --> 00:31:16,920 Speaker 1: be the first thing I tell them is it's like 644 00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: training for a marathon. You've got to be on it 645 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:20,720 Speaker 1: all the time. You have to you have to pay 646 00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 1: attention to other people's feelings, and it's going to feel 647 00:31:23,080 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: weird for you have to be mindful all the time, 648 00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:28,120 Speaker 1: like you have to stop, you have to listen, you 649 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,400 Speaker 1: have to reflect back, you have to think about what 650 00:31:30,440 --> 00:31:32,560 Speaker 1: they're feeling. And many people are saying, are you serious? 651 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,960 Speaker 1: I need to do all of this, and I'm like, yeah, 652 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,680 Speaker 1: that's called a relationship. And so you're teaching them what 653 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:39,520 Speaker 1: they should have been taught when they were small children. 654 00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:44,160 Speaker 1: It's very, very slow, because I feel like I've had 655 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:48,320 Speaker 1: conversations with narcissists before where they'll ask all the right questions, 656 00:31:48,720 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: but you can tell by how they respond they most 657 00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,840 Speaker 1: likely weren't even listened. Probably not. Probably it's hard for them, 658 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 1: like they're just going through the motions of asking you 659 00:31:57,280 --> 00:31:59,080 Speaker 1: what they think you want to be asked. And so 660 00:31:59,120 --> 00:32:01,320 Speaker 1: the question is it'body going to be content being with 661 00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:03,520 Speaker 1: someone who's just going through the motions. That's a very 662 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 1: personal question. Some people might say, listen, if if I 663 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,440 Speaker 1: can manage going through the motions for twelve more years. 664 00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:10,360 Speaker 1: When the kids are gone, I'm out, you know. And 665 00:32:10,400 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: that's again, I think everyone makes very sometimes on the 666 00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 1: basis of culture finances. Nobody gets to judge. But what 667 00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:20,080 Speaker 1: my goal is is to try to give people tools 668 00:32:20,160 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: so they can make this so it's as healthy and 669 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: is at least not getting as invalidated all the time 670 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:29,320 Speaker 1: as they are currently by staying in these relationships. People 671 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:32,800 Speaker 1: like I have this experience where I think they're a narcissist, 672 00:32:33,080 --> 00:32:35,400 Speaker 1: and I know enough about narcissists to know how bad 673 00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: that is, and uh, oh, you need to like prove it, 674 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:46,320 Speaker 1: like yes, yes, Amy, you nailed it. You know what 675 00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: you said, something that I've seen so many people do. 676 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:53,200 Speaker 1: They're like, I gotta get enough data, enough evidence, so 677 00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,640 Speaker 1: I'm convinced. But in the process of getting that data 678 00:32:55,680 --> 00:32:59,000 Speaker 1: and that evidence, they break their own hearts over and 679 00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: over again, and to say, why can't it's almost again 680 00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,920 Speaker 1: it's gaslighting yourself. Why couldn't you trust yourself the first 681 00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: time when you were invalidated? Nobody deserves that, but you 682 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,840 Speaker 1: kind of crave that, like almost feeling that you got 683 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,360 Speaker 1: from before, and it's like not feeling worthy, like the 684 00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: hope you're wrong, the hope, you're willing, you know that 685 00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:18,800 Speaker 1: you can change them. And these relationships are kept in 686 00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,840 Speaker 1: place by two dynamics, hope and fear. Hope it's going 687 00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:23,720 Speaker 1: to get better, and fear What if I leave? What 688 00:33:23,800 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 1: if he's not really like this? What if? What if 689 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:28,440 Speaker 1: there was no one else? Yeah? What if I never 690 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: feel this way again? And you always can? You not 691 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,800 Speaker 1: only can. What is glorious to witness is after people 692 00:33:35,840 --> 00:33:39,680 Speaker 1: have left narcissistic relationships and learn what's really important. The 693 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: love stories. I've seen people walk into their like I 694 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,479 Speaker 1: never would have looked at this person twice And now 695 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: every day I walk through the world feeling important and 696 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:51,160 Speaker 1: beautiful and loved and I don't doubt myself and I 697 00:33:51,200 --> 00:33:53,800 Speaker 1: never thought it could be this way. It's it's stunning 698 00:33:53,880 --> 00:33:57,320 Speaker 1: to witness. And I mean, this might be an ignorant question, 699 00:33:57,360 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: but it's narcissism. Is it women or what's the I'm 700 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: spitballing women that's about to start shifting. I hate to 701 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: say I'm glad we fought for some of its social media. 702 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 1: I think women are are finally and deservedly so fighting 703 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: for their place in the workplace. But sadly the way 704 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: corporate America's run, there is some incentivizing of being a narcissist, 705 00:34:23,520 --> 00:34:25,399 Speaker 1: so in order to climb up in that, women who 706 00:34:25,400 --> 00:34:29,080 Speaker 1: have those qualities sometimes will do better. Girls are affected 707 00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 1: by narcissistic man. I almost have to create that within 708 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: it does it would be kinder. Yeah, they're allowed to be. 709 00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: And keep in mind too, it used to be for 710 00:34:36,800 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 1: a woman to be narcissistic. It might have been trickier 711 00:34:38,920 --> 00:34:40,560 Speaker 1: because it might have been harder for her to get married, 712 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,120 Speaker 1: which is almost a societal requirement. We don't require that 713 00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:45,359 Speaker 1: of women anymore, you know, So some of those things 714 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: that you might have socialized out of women, And I'll 715 00:34:47,800 --> 00:34:50,399 Speaker 1: be honest with you, narcissism and women can come off 716 00:34:50,560 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: more as a victimhood, a coldness, a distance, rather than 717 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 1: that kind of mean spirited combativeness. Tell you more about women, 718 00:34:58,719 --> 00:35:01,200 Speaker 1: How do you know? As a woman, and same way 719 00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:03,879 Speaker 1: as men? I mean, they don't they They are contemptuous 720 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 1: of other people's feelings. They view other people's feelings as weak. 721 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 1: They're very competitive, they don't account for other people's feelings. 722 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:12,799 Speaker 1: They are very entitled. I see it all the time. 723 00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:15,680 Speaker 1: I see women's narcissism. I've been hurt by women's narcissism. 724 00:35:15,719 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: It's it's equally ugly to men's. There's really no difference. 725 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,719 Speaker 1: Let's say that you you break free from the narcissist, 726 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:27,160 Speaker 1: and what's the first thing a person should do or 727 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: could do to help yourself feel better. I tell people 728 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,360 Speaker 1: you need a detox speriit. You've just been through something 729 00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:35,560 Speaker 1: that's you know, sort of on the fringes of the 730 00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: neighborhood of traumatic and sometimes fully traumatic. You need a 731 00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,160 Speaker 1: moment to I always advise some form of support, whether 732 00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: that's therapy, whether that's group support, you know, whether that's 733 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:47,440 Speaker 1: just you just sort of doing the deep dive, and 734 00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: don't try not to get right into another relationship because 735 00:35:50,320 --> 00:35:53,440 Speaker 1: it's like that that scar tissue is really raw. And 736 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,120 Speaker 1: then I think it's about for a while, you're going 737 00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: to overcorrect and you're going to say no to a 738 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:01,520 Speaker 1: lot of people like to go but no charming charming 739 00:36:01,960 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 1: and that's okay, that's okay. I'd rather a person overcorrect 740 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,839 Speaker 1: than under corrects in many ways. And then you've got 741 00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: I tell people, start with building all those relationships you 742 00:36:12,200 --> 00:36:14,399 Speaker 1: ignored all those years, because you've got to remember most 743 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:17,600 Speaker 1: of us put of our effort into our most toxic 744 00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:23,319 Speaker 1: relationships and only ten into our most healthy, reciprocal giving relationships. 745 00:36:23,360 --> 00:36:26,160 Speaker 1: Why those really healthy relationships are like, we're cool, I 746 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:27,719 Speaker 1: love you all the time. When you get in touch, 747 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:30,319 Speaker 1: we're good. But you don't have to constantly feed them. 748 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: Flip that math, go back to those healthy relationships and 749 00:36:34,200 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: recognize what it feels like to look into a mirror again. 750 00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: I think you nailed on something saying reciprocal, because narcissistic 751 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:46,799 Speaker 1: relationships are not at all, like at all, No, none 752 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:48,239 Speaker 1: at all. I mean it's like a mirror that doesn't 753 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,799 Speaker 1: look back, which is actually really unsettling, you know when 754 00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:53,040 Speaker 1: you think about they're not reciprocal. And I think that 755 00:36:53,120 --> 00:36:57,280 Speaker 1: people sometimes feel in control early in a narcissistic relationship 756 00:36:57,280 --> 00:36:59,839 Speaker 1: because they're doing all the work there and and then 757 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,320 Speaker 1: the narcissistic partner maybe trying to win them over again 758 00:37:03,080 --> 00:37:07,360 Speaker 1: deals like it's reciprocal, and then it goes it goes away, 759 00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:09,360 Speaker 1: and what do I need to do to get it back? 760 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:11,840 Speaker 1: How do I get that back? And now you're peddling 761 00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:14,440 Speaker 1: faster and faster, trying to create a time in a 762 00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:17,719 Speaker 1: relationship that's never going to come back again. Ever, we're 763 00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,759 Speaker 1: gonna take a little break here and then we're going 764 00:37:20,800 --> 00:37:25,680 Speaker 1: to talk to UM some of our narcissist hold on 765 00:37:25,760 --> 00:37:32,480 Speaker 1: what's the word, like somebody who's survivors of narcissary abuse. UM, 766 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,200 Speaker 1: We're going to take a little break here, and then 767 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:36,560 Speaker 1: we're gonna come back. I'll ask more questions, but also 768 00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:51,360 Speaker 1: talk to some survivors of narcissists. So now we're back 769 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:56,480 Speaker 1: and we're talking directly to a friend of mine. I 770 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:03,040 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe my boss a surviving nurse. I think 771 00:38:03,120 --> 00:38:06,320 Speaker 1: I still have doubts. I always doubt, like were they 772 00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: I think they were pretty sure when it's like there's 773 00:38:09,680 --> 00:38:13,319 Speaker 1: four thousand signs that they were or are. But you 774 00:38:13,360 --> 00:38:15,200 Speaker 1: know what, it highlights how important it is for us 775 00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,640 Speaker 1: to not get so stuck in the label because then 776 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,000 Speaker 1: people are like, well that didn't so maybe they're not. 777 00:38:20,680 --> 00:38:23,160 Speaker 1: I say, pay attention to how someone makes you feel. 778 00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,279 Speaker 1: So if you're feeling no respect and they're manipulating you 779 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 1: and their gaslighting you and they're twisting your truth and 780 00:38:28,760 --> 00:38:31,480 Speaker 1: they're not respecting your feeling, thank you against other people. 781 00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:35,719 Speaker 1: That what you triangle thing is super big. It's very 782 00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: big forms where they get their power, and they all 783 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:40,440 Speaker 1: have triangles, even the sorry, can you explain the triangle 784 00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: thing to me? So Dr MNI can probably explained, but 785 00:38:42,800 --> 00:38:46,200 Speaker 1: I would explain it as OK, here's like a loose example. 786 00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:51,359 Speaker 1: There's always a wife or another girlfriend and it's like, oh, 787 00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,040 Speaker 1: they were being terrible, so I was super excited to 788 00:38:55,080 --> 00:38:58,080 Speaker 1: see you, but now you're being terrible and I can't 789 00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,480 Speaker 1: wait to go back to them. Like classical that happened, 790 00:39:01,560 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: and they likely grew up like that. Triangulation is often 791 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: a dynamic you learn in the family, and then that's 792 00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:08,400 Speaker 1: what they do. They will pit the mistress and the 793 00:39:08,400 --> 00:39:10,960 Speaker 1: wife for the boyfriend and the husband against each other. 794 00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:13,640 Speaker 1: So and remember what's the great about that setup is 795 00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:17,920 Speaker 1: the narcissist has a guaranteed source of narcissistic supply because 796 00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:20,480 Speaker 1: the wife is aggravated, you got the mistress. You mistress aggravated, 797 00:39:20,480 --> 00:39:23,239 Speaker 1: you got the girlfriend, or until we both until you're 798 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,200 Speaker 1: both And that's that's the best day of my year 799 00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:26,920 Speaker 1: when I watch a narcissists were both the wife and 800 00:39:26,920 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: the mistress walk out the same day, like that's like 801 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 1: a holiday around my house. So when they're doing that, 802 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,280 Speaker 1: when the narcissist is doing that. Are they just getting 803 00:39:37,320 --> 00:39:40,200 Speaker 1: off on the fact that they can completely control two people. 804 00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:42,120 Speaker 1: It's not a getting off because that makes it sound 805 00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:44,960 Speaker 1: it's almost too conscious. Then it's a it's a need 806 00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: getting met. Like they don't love it, but they love it. 807 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: It's like it's like drinking blood. That's what I was like. 808 00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,040 Speaker 1: Each person is giving them something that their ego needs 809 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:59,719 Speaker 1: to feel like because somebody said something to me like, yes, 810 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,080 Speaker 1: I have cheated on my wife before, but the thing 811 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,480 Speaker 1: is I would never cheat on her with somebody that's 812 00:40:05,640 --> 00:40:07,239 Speaker 1: been with a lot of people. It has to only 813 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,880 Speaker 1: be me. I'm like, why would you? Why would you 814 00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:12,359 Speaker 1: believe that they're only with you they're cheating, you know, Like, 815 00:40:13,680 --> 00:40:16,120 Speaker 1: so what is that? So they believe in things that 816 00:40:16,160 --> 00:40:20,200 Speaker 1: again protect them and help them feel good, and that 817 00:40:20,200 --> 00:40:24,880 Speaker 1: that's it's almost they almost are veering into the delusional territory. 818 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:28,000 Speaker 1: That's how much that their beliefs are so skewed there 819 00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,680 Speaker 1: they seem like they're deluded. They're not. Even ironically, they 820 00:40:30,760 --> 00:40:33,080 Speaker 1: question everyone else's reality, but they're not in their own. 821 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: To a narcissist makes them feel good, absolutely absolutely, because 822 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,600 Speaker 1: it gives them. Think about it, when someone makes them 823 00:40:39,640 --> 00:40:41,879 Speaker 1: feel good as long as it's not about them. Even 824 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:45,879 Speaker 1: if it's about them, it's power. It's power because now 825 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,040 Speaker 1: you've shown me to be weak. I go back to 826 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: Jill's examples, and in some ways it was like she 827 00:40:50,360 --> 00:40:52,840 Speaker 1: was rendered weak in that relationship. Oh do you really 828 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 1: care who was texting me? God? Are you really that insecure? Now? 829 00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,239 Speaker 1: Imagine how much more powerful he was than her at 830 00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 1: that point. And he got me to change my relationships 831 00:41:04,320 --> 00:41:06,920 Speaker 1: with other people. I am so close with my family, 832 00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,879 Speaker 1: and when we were together, there would be weekends where 833 00:41:10,920 --> 00:41:15,040 Speaker 1: we wouldn't see each other whatsoever because he didn't want 834 00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:18,680 Speaker 1: me going somewhere or And in my mind I knew 835 00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:20,720 Speaker 1: it was wrong. In my heart, I knew it was wrong. 836 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: But yet hearing him explained that he needed me to 837 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:26,799 Speaker 1: stay home, I was like, of course, yeah. And then 838 00:41:27,000 --> 00:41:28,640 Speaker 1: weeks and weeks and weeks would go by. I'm not 839 00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: seeing my family, I'm not seeing my friends, And it 840 00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:34,879 Speaker 1: just completely changed me as a person. And the one 841 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 1: thing I will say is when this relationship ended, I 842 00:41:39,600 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: was just dead inside. I didn't know who I was. 843 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:49,160 Speaker 1: I wasn't I was not me at all. Um we 844 00:41:49,160 --> 00:41:53,080 Speaker 1: were together, I mean a little over five years off 845 00:41:53,760 --> 00:41:56,400 Speaker 1: and on for even longer. But that five years of 846 00:41:56,440 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: span of like was a good run. But it was 847 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: just like I wasn't me and it took a really 848 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:06,320 Speaker 1: long time for me to feel like myself again because 849 00:42:06,560 --> 00:42:09,240 Speaker 1: I felt nothing. Why does she seem so much healthier 850 00:42:09,239 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 1: than me? Because it really is time, And that's why 851 00:42:16,320 --> 00:42:18,480 Speaker 1: I'm saying, like, even after that, you're saying, how do 852 00:42:18,560 --> 00:42:20,759 Speaker 1: we get past this? How do we detox? You then 853 00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,400 Speaker 1: started spending time with those friends and family again, you know, 854 00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:27,600 Speaker 1: like it really is like breathing healthy air again, Like, 855 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: oh now I'm coming back to life. And it takes 856 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 1: some time of doing that. We're like, no one's going 857 00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:34,959 Speaker 1: to tell me I can't do this and I can't 858 00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,160 Speaker 1: do these things that are wonderful for me. Once you 859 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:39,120 Speaker 1: start feeling like you're in control of your life again, 860 00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:41,319 Speaker 1: that's often times where you start you start to heal 861 00:42:41,640 --> 00:42:44,279 Speaker 1: because you're when you're in a relationship with the narcissists, 862 00:42:44,280 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 1: it's very time consuming because you waste a lot of 863 00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,040 Speaker 1: time interpreting texts and why didn't he call or she 864 00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,680 Speaker 1: called too soon? Well where is this person? Or what's 865 00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,319 Speaker 1: going on? And explaining and talking about things till two 866 00:42:55,360 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: in the morning, and then people going to bed angry, 867 00:42:58,040 --> 00:42:59,799 Speaker 1: and it's a lot of times like a full time 868 00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 1: all being in a relationship with these people always on 869 00:43:03,560 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 1: your mind, whereas if you're in a healthy relationship, to 870 00:43:05,520 --> 00:43:07,600 Speaker 1: be honest with you, you don't waste a lot of 871 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:09,840 Speaker 1: mental real estate on that. Like you love the person 872 00:43:10,120 --> 00:43:11,960 Speaker 1: and you're happy to talk to them, but you're not 873 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: spending your wheels thinking about them all the time in 874 00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:17,520 Speaker 1: this dysfunctional, ruminating kind of a way. And you hear 875 00:43:17,600 --> 00:43:20,319 Speaker 1: relationships are hard, and so you think like, oh, yeah, 876 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,600 Speaker 1: this is the people are talking about. By the way, 877 00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,359 Speaker 1: I don't know. I think a shrink must have sold 878 00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: that's so we'd get work. But relationship really aren't that 879 00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,239 Speaker 1: hard when they were. Sometimes you have to make a 880 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,879 Speaker 1: compromise like Okay, yeah, I'm going to skip to dinner 881 00:43:31,960 --> 00:43:35,160 Speaker 1: tonight because my partner is sick. But that doesn't feel hard. 882 00:43:35,200 --> 00:43:38,400 Speaker 1: That feels like love, and you don't label that it's 883 00:43:38,440 --> 00:43:40,359 Speaker 1: hard when it was, Like, no, it has to feel hard, 884 00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,960 Speaker 1: and relationships should feel like mental pilates. You're doing it wrong. 885 00:43:44,840 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 1: For somebody that's in the triangle, if they're either the 886 00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: wife or the mistress or whomever, or even the narcissist. 887 00:43:52,520 --> 00:43:54,799 Speaker 1: Is there any closure to it? Ever, there is no 888 00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:57,320 Speaker 1: closure with narcissists, and that I think is the hardest 889 00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,600 Speaker 1: thing for people to get their head around. I think 890 00:43:59,640 --> 00:44:01,360 Speaker 1: some people will feel like, you know what, I could 891 00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,279 Speaker 1: heal from this if this person would just finally take ownership, 892 00:44:06,239 --> 00:44:08,719 Speaker 1: explain to me what happened, and I can let it go. 893 00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: It won't happen because they don't get it, They don't understand, 894 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:15,080 Speaker 1: and nor do they care what they did to you 895 00:44:15,560 --> 00:44:17,920 Speaker 1: and you. Trying to force them to think about it 896 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:23,280 Speaker 1: gets them very angry, so they'll often start insulting, criticizing, humiliating, 897 00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:26,320 Speaker 1: and degrading the other person. So then it's even worse. 898 00:44:26,960 --> 00:44:30,360 Speaker 1: The the best play, the best play, honestly, is to 899 00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:33,279 Speaker 1: walk away with your head held high, and honestly, then 900 00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:35,359 Speaker 1: you're kind of sticking it to them too, because now 901 00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:38,200 Speaker 1: they've lost their sulf like you're dead because I left 902 00:44:38,239 --> 00:44:40,840 Speaker 1: one and found another. Yeah, that's why I'm saying you 903 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: need that detox perience. What is a detox? Like I 904 00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:49,160 Speaker 1: just said, you need time a long but it's it's 905 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:50,879 Speaker 1: definitely and you know what, Listen, a lot of people 906 00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,480 Speaker 1: in narcissistic relationships, they stay at the table too long. 907 00:44:53,600 --> 00:44:55,719 Speaker 1: They really do. So the last year or two of 908 00:44:55,719 --> 00:44:58,240 Speaker 1: a narcissistic relationship, this thing is already dead in the water, 909 00:44:58,560 --> 00:45:01,239 Speaker 1: so people crave tie. I often say, if you're in 910 00:45:01,239 --> 00:45:03,640 Speaker 1: a relationship with the narcissist, try and get things like 911 00:45:03,719 --> 00:45:06,120 Speaker 1: massages from time to time, just so you can have 912 00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,719 Speaker 1: real human touch that doesn't feel like sort of this 913 00:45:09,040 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 1: toxic kind of angry sex touch or no touch, which 914 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:14,560 Speaker 1: is what does tend to happen in narcissistic relationship is 915 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:18,120 Speaker 1: a frequency of sex drops down. Something's weird with so 916 00:45:18,520 --> 00:45:21,399 Speaker 1: they're not going to be touching. So they're touching someone else, 917 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:24,560 Speaker 1: but they're not going to be like holding your hand 918 00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,000 Speaker 1: or saying. It's not very intimate. It's very performance art sex. 919 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: In fact, sometimes it's very athletic and it's very exciting 920 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:34,759 Speaker 1: and it's very seductive, but it's very empty. And again 921 00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:37,600 Speaker 1: it's like, in fact, they managed to position themselves during 922 00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:41,600 Speaker 1: sex to highlight their best physical attributes. It's all very theatrical. 923 00:45:42,800 --> 00:45:45,680 Speaker 1: Is this familiar A little bit? On the hand, the 924 00:45:45,760 --> 00:45:49,600 Speaker 1: hand holding are more like affection a straight it is, 925 00:45:49,800 --> 00:45:53,000 Speaker 1: so I'm not convinced the third one was the narcissist. 926 00:45:53,040 --> 00:45:56,640 Speaker 1: I'm still holding out hope that I'm two. But the 927 00:45:56,640 --> 00:46:01,080 Speaker 1: third sex at it? Who the the third one? Yeah, 928 00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:03,120 Speaker 1: the one that we talked about that. I'm still not certain. 929 00:46:03,160 --> 00:46:05,920 Speaker 1: There's there's too much insensitivity there, So let's not call 930 00:46:06,000 --> 00:46:09,240 Speaker 1: him a narcissist. But if we call this person deeply insensitive? 931 00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:14,080 Speaker 1: Still not sold on the third one. First, she she 932 00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,600 Speaker 1: wants to have that last call, try a little bit 933 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,120 Speaker 1: because and what is it in me? That's like, I'll 934 00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:21,560 Speaker 1: just let me try? Yeah, why does she want to listen? 935 00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:24,279 Speaker 1: I'm going to spit ball here. We don't know each 936 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 1: other super well. We've talked a bit, but you know, 937 00:46:26,960 --> 00:46:29,000 Speaker 1: I would really want to do the deeper dive into 938 00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:31,960 Speaker 1: your childhood. You know, maybe you might have grown up 939 00:46:32,000 --> 00:46:34,279 Speaker 1: in a very happy home, but that idea that you 940 00:46:34,320 --> 00:46:37,279 Speaker 1: had to somehow take care of maybe mom, maybe dad, 941 00:46:37,320 --> 00:46:40,040 Speaker 1: maybe everyone, and that that's your role and you're going 942 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:41,920 Speaker 1: to keep doing it because that's where you got your 943 00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:44,960 Speaker 1: identity from that to give up that role and to 944 00:46:45,080 --> 00:46:48,040 Speaker 1: keep trying this until you really feel it's done. The 945 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:50,480 Speaker 1: real risk for you is to stay in too long 946 00:46:50,520 --> 00:46:53,600 Speaker 1: so you truly feel like you tried everything, but that 947 00:46:53,719 --> 00:46:56,239 Speaker 1: stuff you learn young. I think on the first one, 948 00:46:56,640 --> 00:46:59,800 Speaker 1: well not probably not the first one, but the most 949 00:47:00,040 --> 00:47:05,680 Speaker 1: recent first one. That one was I knew something was 950 00:47:05,719 --> 00:47:08,399 Speaker 1: not right, like two months in and I three years later. 951 00:47:08,840 --> 00:47:12,040 Speaker 1: But by the time I left three years later, I 952 00:47:12,080 --> 00:47:14,400 Speaker 1: was done. But I was gonna say, like, does this 953 00:47:14,440 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: seem like narcissist to you? Sorry, I'm so like snotty too. No, 954 00:47:20,800 --> 00:47:23,759 Speaker 1: I mean seeing emotion when you're pregnant and make sure 955 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:26,640 Speaker 1: even more emotional like a snott over here as well. 956 00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:30,440 Speaker 1: So I once said, I feel like you're not reciprocal, 957 00:47:31,960 --> 00:47:34,160 Speaker 1: and he was like, what do you mean? And I'm like, 958 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:36,759 Speaker 1: I don't know, Like, and I gave this example and 959 00:47:36,960 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: I said, oh, I did this, and you didn't say 960 00:47:38,719 --> 00:47:44,839 Speaker 1: thank you. And the person sent me maybe twenty emails 961 00:47:44,880 --> 00:47:47,120 Speaker 1: that we had sent to each other where the thank 962 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:52,239 Speaker 1: you was highlighted and it was so brutal. Yeah, it 963 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,399 Speaker 1: was like it's petty. It is. And and in fact, 964 00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:57,680 Speaker 1: a relationship with the narcissists is like death by a 965 00:47:57,719 --> 00:48:00,840 Speaker 1: thousand cuts. You stay and you get cut, and you 966 00:48:00,920 --> 00:48:02,640 Speaker 1: get caught in one day you're like you're done, Like 967 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:05,120 Speaker 1: you can't bear it. Anymore, but that petty kind of 968 00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:07,960 Speaker 1: counting the thank you It's like, how dare you showing 969 00:48:08,000 --> 00:48:10,759 Speaker 1: you a record of every gift? Look at all these 970 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:14,120 Speaker 1: thank you there's a lot. They like to account all that. 971 00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,920 Speaker 1: They keep an accounting of grievances of things they've done, 972 00:48:17,239 --> 00:48:19,480 Speaker 1: and like good accountants, they pull out the books when 973 00:48:19,520 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 1: they need them, and you're like, you really were paying 974 00:48:21,800 --> 00:48:26,040 Speaker 1: attention all along, but to the wrong stuff. So because 975 00:48:26,040 --> 00:48:29,800 Speaker 1: I'd say, that was sort of towards where I was like, gops, 976 00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:34,919 Speaker 1: to get this is a lot. But what if it's 977 00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:38,560 Speaker 1: to narcissists one? Oh lord, everyone, I mean it's it's 978 00:48:38,600 --> 00:48:42,719 Speaker 1: really like you you almost want to it's fireworks. It's fireworks. 979 00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:46,200 Speaker 1: It's two people engaged in parallel play, and it all 980 00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:48,960 Speaker 1: seems to go quite well because it's also superficial. But 981 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,799 Speaker 1: at some point somebody needs more narcissistic supply than the 982 00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:55,680 Speaker 1: other or so what happens that or one person's career 983 00:48:55,760 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: or something in life is going better, and that's when 984 00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,360 Speaker 1: all of it falls apart, which tends to happen in 985 00:49:00,400 --> 00:49:03,600 Speaker 1: most case when it falls apart, like example, um, when 986 00:49:03,600 --> 00:49:07,200 Speaker 1: it falls apart one person we live in Hollywood, like 987 00:49:07,239 --> 00:49:09,200 Speaker 1: one person gets the part they want and the other 988 00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:12,080 Speaker 1: person is sort of still languishing and doing like local theater. 989 00:49:12,280 --> 00:49:14,840 Speaker 1: So then what will the narcissists due to the other narcissis. 990 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,839 Speaker 1: So then the one will start getting angry because all 991 00:49:17,880 --> 00:49:19,719 Speaker 1: of the person who's still in local theater will get 992 00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:21,680 Speaker 1: angry at the person who got the big part because 993 00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,840 Speaker 1: they're insecure and they're going getting ahead is making them 994 00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:27,960 Speaker 1: feel more insecure, and so they'll keep you know, pushing 995 00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:30,640 Speaker 1: at them. They'll try to tear them down, and they'll 996 00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:33,640 Speaker 1: keep criticizing them. Well, narcissist isn't gonna put up with that, 997 00:49:33,800 --> 00:49:35,120 Speaker 1: So they're going to say, well, the reason you do 998 00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:37,600 Speaker 1: community theaters because you're a loser and you have no talent. 999 00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,480 Speaker 1: And then they'll just get each other down and tell 1000 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,399 Speaker 1: neither of you listen. I'm glad when the narcissists find 1001 00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,520 Speaker 1: each other because it gets them out of our water supply. 1002 00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:51,120 Speaker 1: The tragedy the tragedies when they have kids, that devastates, 1003 00:49:51,200 --> 00:49:53,839 Speaker 1: devastating because there's really no one really on it with 1004 00:49:53,880 --> 00:49:55,520 Speaker 1: the kids, right, these are kids who do go on. 1005 00:49:55,600 --> 00:49:58,120 Speaker 1: There's a lot of risks for these kids then as adults, 1006 00:49:58,480 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: so that I'm not okay with, but they want to 1007 00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,840 Speaker 1: they want to get together find just tryed to avoid 1008 00:50:03,840 --> 00:50:06,520 Speaker 1: having kids. It's or hire the best care on the 1009 00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:09,520 Speaker 1: planet for those kids, or have the best grandma possible. 1010 00:50:10,560 --> 00:50:12,759 Speaker 1: But most of the time that grandma was a narcissistic. 1011 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:17,200 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. That's exactly right. Yeah, so it's rough. No, No, 1012 00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,400 Speaker 1: I've seen it happen over and over again again, especially 1013 00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,320 Speaker 1: in Hollywood, and clients that that aren't the narcissists that 1014 00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:25,640 Speaker 1: are dealing with a narcissists feel crazy. Oh, that's exactly 1015 00:50:25,680 --> 00:50:28,319 Speaker 1: what brought them in. They say, I am losing my mind, 1016 00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,680 Speaker 1: I've lost all grip on reality. I've tried this, I've 1017 00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:33,320 Speaker 1: done this. Why isn't it working out? And it must 1018 00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:37,080 Speaker 1: be my fault because nothing's working for whatever reason. They 1019 00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,520 Speaker 1: don't think it's the other person, you know, it's you know, 1020 00:50:39,560 --> 00:50:41,839 Speaker 1: it's almost like it's like jousting at windmills, right, you're 1021 00:50:41,840 --> 00:50:44,359 Speaker 1: never going to get it right. But they all the time, 1022 00:50:44,480 --> 00:50:47,920 Speaker 1: you feel like they're going crazy, confusing because other people 1023 00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:51,680 Speaker 1: like the narcissists so much. That's exactly. Sometimes I'm like, 1024 00:50:52,120 --> 00:50:55,680 Speaker 1: what like people always like he's the best, greatest guy 1025 00:50:55,880 --> 00:50:58,600 Speaker 1: and it's like you don't know. And all narcissists, for 1026 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,840 Speaker 1: the most part, are successful, not at all. There's a 1027 00:51:01,840 --> 00:51:04,879 Speaker 1: subgroup of what we call covert or more vulnerable narcissists. 1028 00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,360 Speaker 1: Things don't go well for them and they blame the world. 1029 00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:09,359 Speaker 1: You know, I would have been a great success if 1030 00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:11,480 Speaker 1: you know, I was bigger than Steve Jobs, I was 1031 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:13,799 Speaker 1: smarter than Albert Einstein. You know, I had Bill Gates 1032 00:51:13,880 --> 00:51:16,040 Speaker 1: idea before he ever had it. And now they're still 1033 00:51:16,040 --> 00:51:18,040 Speaker 1: living in their mother's basement, so clearly that didn't work 1034 00:51:18,080 --> 00:51:22,719 Speaker 1: out for them. Insecurity is more um close, like you 1035 00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:28,239 Speaker 1: feel and hear their insecurities. Also, I'm not that smart, yeah, 1036 00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:31,600 Speaker 1: because that's a narcissist. Yeah, And it's sort of like 1037 00:51:31,640 --> 00:51:33,960 Speaker 1: where you go, what are you talking about? And then 1038 00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,440 Speaker 1: you see but it's as you can tell them how 1039 00:51:36,480 --> 00:51:39,200 Speaker 1: great they are, yeah, like you know, I'm never gonna 1040 00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:40,719 Speaker 1: make it this business? Are you kidding me? Here? The 1041 00:51:40,719 --> 00:51:45,319 Speaker 1: most talented whatever phil it in doctor like me so much. 1042 00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:47,880 Speaker 1: But it's so nice that you do. And then the 1043 00:51:47,920 --> 00:51:49,520 Speaker 1: next day they'll be like, and no one's ever going 1044 00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,160 Speaker 1: to love you the way I do. If anyone ever 1045 00:51:51,200 --> 00:51:53,160 Speaker 1: says to you, no one's ever gonna love you like 1046 00:51:53,239 --> 00:51:55,480 Speaker 1: I do. Change your number and move it, and won't. 1047 00:51:55,480 --> 00:51:57,919 Speaker 1: They often say leave, You're not going to do better 1048 00:51:57,920 --> 00:52:01,920 Speaker 1: than major leave, Leave, leave, They but dangle from it. 1049 00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:04,720 Speaker 1: That's different because that feels so antagonistic. But some people 1050 00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:07,359 Speaker 1: really fall hard for somebody saying no one is ever 1051 00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:09,239 Speaker 1: going to love you the way I do, instead of 1052 00:52:09,239 --> 00:52:12,520 Speaker 1: seeing that as the toxic, scary, manipulative thing. That is, 1053 00:52:13,600 --> 00:52:15,520 Speaker 1: people think think like whoa, i' mean this a great 1054 00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 1: love story. That's that's where it gets named. And the 1055 00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:19,919 Speaker 1: second that you do leave, are you threatened to leave? 1056 00:52:19,960 --> 00:52:22,680 Speaker 1: That's when they love bombing comes from. And they just 1057 00:52:22,760 --> 00:52:25,080 Speaker 1: turn it on and then you forget it. So they're 1058 00:52:25,080 --> 00:52:28,319 Speaker 1: not nice again. They're super nice, overly nice, and it 1059 00:52:28,440 --> 00:52:31,040 Speaker 1: outweighs all these horrible bad times that you guys just 1060 00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,160 Speaker 1: had for this one good good Very confusing. It's very confusing, 1061 00:52:35,160 --> 00:52:38,080 Speaker 1: that's the bottom line. It's a very confusing. There's somebody 1062 00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:42,160 Speaker 1: who once wrote a book called um too good to leave, 1063 00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,959 Speaker 1: Too bad to stay, and that was perfectly put. Because 1064 00:52:45,040 --> 00:52:47,560 Speaker 1: you have people say there are enough good days, enough 1065 00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:50,000 Speaker 1: good hours to keep me in it, to which I say, 1066 00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,040 Speaker 1: you almost have to view the good days as like 1067 00:52:52,080 --> 00:52:55,319 Speaker 1: the harvest season, like put all that good stuff away 1068 00:52:55,400 --> 00:52:58,560 Speaker 1: because there's rough days coming ahead, and then just white 1069 00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,040 Speaker 1: knuckle it and then get that's a it's a heck 1070 00:53:01,080 --> 00:53:03,040 Speaker 1: of a way too. I can't do it. It's tough, 1071 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:07,879 Speaker 1: it's yeah, and sorry, just I'm probably running out of time. 1072 00:53:07,920 --> 00:53:12,320 Speaker 1: But he'll we're okay, We're okay, okay, good, I'm mechanic um. 1073 00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:16,280 Speaker 1: In regards to I know you just said the difference 1074 00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:21,320 Speaker 1: between a narcissist and a psychopath, but what's the difference 1075 00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:25,040 Speaker 1: between a narcissist and a sociopath? So psychopath and socio 1076 00:53:25,160 --> 00:53:27,160 Speaker 1: sociopath is sort of a term that's not as well. 1077 00:53:27,200 --> 00:53:28,680 Speaker 1: I mean, people use it, but it's actually in the 1078 00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,840 Speaker 1: scientific literature. It's a hazier term psychopath that's got a 1079 00:53:32,840 --> 00:53:37,000 Speaker 1: lot more meat behind it. A sociopath is considered to 1080 00:53:37,000 --> 00:53:39,320 Speaker 1: be like a psychopath in some ways. Their nervous system 1081 00:53:39,400 --> 00:53:41,359 Speaker 1: is different, so like when they do when we do 1082 00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,839 Speaker 1: bad things, we feel uncomfortable, you know, like if we 1083 00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,000 Speaker 1: I don't know, we cut someone off in a certain way. 1084 00:53:46,080 --> 00:53:47,520 Speaker 1: If we were to actually try to break a rule, 1085 00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,280 Speaker 1: our hearts starts being a little faster. That doesn't happen 1086 00:53:50,320 --> 00:53:52,600 Speaker 1: for a psychopath, and as a result, they tolerate stress 1087 00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:55,000 Speaker 1: really well. So that's why they often do make like 1088 00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:58,239 Speaker 1: great soldiers are great surgeons even because stress doesn't bother them. 1089 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,279 Speaker 1: Sociopaths aren't like that. They also don't feel remorse. They 1090 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:04,480 Speaker 1: can also be quite dangerous. They can also quite be 1091 00:54:04,600 --> 00:54:07,480 Speaker 1: violent because they tend to be more hotheaded than psychopaths. 1092 00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:10,120 Speaker 1: Violent like going on a killing spree, or violent like 1093 00:54:10,239 --> 00:54:13,880 Speaker 1: domestic abuse. All of the above yeah so um. And 1094 00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:15,880 Speaker 1: it's believed that in some ways the psychopath might be 1095 00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: more of a pure biological variant of this person who 1096 00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:20,319 Speaker 1: can do bad things and not worry about it. A 1097 00:54:20,400 --> 00:54:23,279 Speaker 1: sociopath might be more like that as a byproduct of 1098 00:54:23,320 --> 00:54:26,520 Speaker 1: their upbringing, like they grew up with significant neglect or 1099 00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:30,040 Speaker 1: significant abuse. Again, the research is still kind of evolving 1100 00:54:30,040 --> 00:54:32,719 Speaker 1: on that. I prefer sticking to psychopath and narcissist. I 1101 00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:36,440 Speaker 1: think spectrum to where like I'm picking the on a 1102 00:54:36,480 --> 00:54:40,879 Speaker 1: one to ten, the five, and the five you can 1103 00:54:40,960 --> 00:54:44,239 Speaker 1: stick a little longer because they're not so bad, which 1104 00:54:44,280 --> 00:54:47,520 Speaker 1: is why I'm always like, are they are they? When 1105 00:54:47,520 --> 00:54:49,799 Speaker 1: you say are they are they? They probably are about 1106 00:54:49,840 --> 00:54:51,839 Speaker 1: a three or four or five when they were at eight, 1107 00:54:51,920 --> 00:54:54,200 Speaker 1: nine or ten. You're just calling nine one one like 1108 00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:55,640 Speaker 1: you're like, I need to get out of here. But 1109 00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,080 Speaker 1: they are on a spectrum, and there's different kinds too. 1110 00:54:58,400 --> 00:55:00,960 Speaker 1: There's what I call those more vulnar able narcissists that 1111 00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,680 Speaker 1: don't look so grandiose. They actually are the ones who 1112 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:06,440 Speaker 1: tend to be more like victims. Woe is me, nobody 1113 00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,959 Speaker 1: gets me. You know, we talked about these so called 1114 00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,520 Speaker 1: in cells. That's more of the vulnerable narsis. In cells 1115 00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,520 Speaker 1: are these guys who are involuntarily celibate and they get 1116 00:55:15,520 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: mad and they kill people. I mean, it's really it's 1117 00:55:18,680 --> 00:55:22,320 Speaker 1: it's like the Joker was probably a vulnerable narcissist. And 1118 00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,600 Speaker 1: that's an example of that. I didn't pick any of those. 1119 00:55:27,440 --> 00:55:34,840 Speaker 1: Uh sorry about that. Um is this considered like a diagnosed, 1120 00:55:35,040 --> 00:55:38,080 Speaker 1: diagnosed psychological disorder. So this is where a lot of 1121 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:40,959 Speaker 1: people say, well, how dare you be sitting there diagnosing people? 1122 00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:44,480 Speaker 1: Were not diagnosing people narcissist. To call someone narcissistic, it's 1123 00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:49,000 Speaker 1: an adjective, like calling someone stubborn or agreeable or clingy. 1124 00:55:49,040 --> 00:55:51,920 Speaker 1: It's a it's a descriptive term. When we call it 1125 00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:56,839 Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder, then it's a diagnosis. But actually the 1126 00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,839 Speaker 1: prevalence of narcissistic personality disorder is only somewhere between two 1127 00:56:00,840 --> 00:56:03,880 Speaker 1: and five. And the reason it's so low is that 1128 00:56:03,960 --> 00:56:06,719 Speaker 1: for something to be called a mental illness, it has 1129 00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:10,600 Speaker 1: to cause a person significant impairment in their lives or 1130 00:56:10,640 --> 00:56:12,759 Speaker 1: they need to be distressed about it. Well, a lot 1131 00:56:12,800 --> 00:56:15,560 Speaker 1: of narcissists are actually pretty cool with their lives. They 1132 00:56:15,560 --> 00:56:19,279 Speaker 1: got lives, they got girlfriends, they got money, like, and 1133 00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:21,960 Speaker 1: they don't recognize the insecurity in themselves. It's not like 1134 00:56:22,040 --> 00:56:24,200 Speaker 1: they're walking around saying I'm really insecure. That's why I'm 1135 00:56:24,200 --> 00:56:26,520 Speaker 1: a jerk. I think if they were listening to this, 1136 00:56:26,680 --> 00:56:28,680 Speaker 1: they wouldn't even know we're talking about They would not, 1137 00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,160 Speaker 1: they absolutely would not, And I think that's what's so maddening, 1138 00:56:31,160 --> 00:56:33,080 Speaker 1: because like, for example, if you're in a relationship with 1139 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:36,520 Speaker 1: somebody with depression, they'd know it about themselves and say, 1140 00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:38,319 Speaker 1: I know I'm depressed, and I know at times that 1141 00:56:38,360 --> 00:56:40,120 Speaker 1: makes it hard for you to talk to me. And 1142 00:56:40,160 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: I know that means at times I don't want to 1143 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,760 Speaker 1: go out and I apologize. So there's something rather self 1144 00:56:44,840 --> 00:56:47,719 Speaker 1: aware at that for a person struggling with many other 1145 00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:52,000 Speaker 1: mental illnesses. This is a very little, unique space, which 1146 00:56:52,000 --> 00:56:53,719 Speaker 1: is why I got into research in this area because 1147 00:56:53,760 --> 00:56:56,160 Speaker 1: it was such an odd space and mental health. And 1148 00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:58,400 Speaker 1: I'm also looking through like kind of some of the 1149 00:56:58,440 --> 00:57:01,000 Speaker 1: most asked questions I'm getting, and one that is just 1150 00:57:01,040 --> 00:57:03,719 Speaker 1: blowing up my phone is I have to co parent 1151 00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:07,200 Speaker 1: with a narcissist. Good please give me the best advice. 1152 00:57:07,640 --> 00:57:10,120 Speaker 1: Number one, I want this poor person to not even 1153 00:57:10,239 --> 00:57:12,680 Speaker 1: use the word co parent because you're basically a single 1154 00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:15,440 Speaker 1: parent with an elephant on your back, you know, because 1155 00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:19,920 Speaker 1: the co parenting implies cooperation and collaboration. I tell people 1156 00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:23,760 Speaker 1: who co parent with a narcissist, make sure you document everything, 1157 00:57:24,840 --> 00:57:27,760 Speaker 1: make sure that you are you Often co parents with 1158 00:57:27,840 --> 00:57:30,240 Speaker 1: narcissists will sometimes spend a lot of their custody time 1159 00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:32,880 Speaker 1: sort of undoing what happened when the child was with 1160 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:36,439 Speaker 1: the narcissistic parent. You have to be willing to talk 1161 00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:39,280 Speaker 1: to your kids about emotions a lot, because their narcissistic 1162 00:57:39,280 --> 00:57:42,760 Speaker 1: parent may not do that. You have to. You just 1163 00:57:42,800 --> 00:57:44,520 Speaker 1: have to give your kid time to kind of come 1164 00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:47,040 Speaker 1: back into your household because that can be hard. Your 1165 00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:50,480 Speaker 1: narcissistic co parent or other parent is often going to 1166 00:57:50,560 --> 00:57:53,320 Speaker 1: be trying to go to war with you. I always say, 1167 00:57:53,440 --> 00:57:55,840 Speaker 1: if a narcissist knows you want something, they're not going 1168 00:57:55,920 --> 00:57:57,600 Speaker 1: to want to give it to you. So you've got 1169 00:57:57,600 --> 00:58:00,280 Speaker 1: to play it cool when it comes to custody. A 1170 00:58:00,280 --> 00:58:01,640 Speaker 1: lot of parents I wish I could have a d 1171 00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:04,000 Speaker 1: percent custody, and I said, you know you're narcissistic. Other 1172 00:58:04,080 --> 00:58:06,640 Speaker 1: parents may not be as interested in custody as you think. 1173 00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:09,600 Speaker 1: Kids are kind of a headache, right They demand time 1174 00:58:09,640 --> 00:58:12,120 Speaker 1: and attention. I said, if you play it cool and 1175 00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:14,160 Speaker 1: they don't feel like they're getting a win over you, 1176 00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:17,320 Speaker 1: you might actually get more and you'll making money based 1177 00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:19,280 Speaker 1: and all of that. So, but you really have to 1178 00:58:19,320 --> 00:58:21,520 Speaker 1: have patience. You need to be in your own therapy, 1179 00:58:21,560 --> 00:58:24,280 Speaker 1: You need to be in support groups. Do not many 1180 00:58:24,320 --> 00:58:26,760 Speaker 1: times these divorces don't work with mediators. You do need 1181 00:58:26,800 --> 00:58:30,560 Speaker 1: attorneys because it starts getting very messy and mediation may 1182 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:32,240 Speaker 1: not cut it. In some cases it might, but in 1183 00:58:32,280 --> 00:58:35,120 Speaker 1: many cases it won't. And you need to be and 1184 00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:36,560 Speaker 1: you need to know that you're gonna have to keep 1185 00:58:36,600 --> 00:58:38,520 Speaker 1: revisiting this over and over again. This is not a 1186 00:58:38,560 --> 00:58:40,640 Speaker 1: one off. This is something that is going to torment 1187 00:58:40,720 --> 00:58:42,760 Speaker 1: you until your kids are old enough to make their 1188 00:58:42,800 --> 00:58:45,320 Speaker 1: own custody decisions or move out of the house, and 1189 00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:47,400 Speaker 1: it will take a toll on your kids. There's you 1190 00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:49,720 Speaker 1: do not get to do this without this taking a 1191 00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:51,640 Speaker 1: toll on your kids. And then, in that same token, 1192 00:58:51,640 --> 00:58:54,960 Speaker 1: if you see somebody in your life that is with 1193 00:58:55,040 --> 00:58:58,160 Speaker 1: a narcissist, that's another question. How do you tell your friend, 1194 00:58:58,240 --> 00:59:01,320 Speaker 1: your sister, your whatever, like, how do you help them? Don't? 1195 00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,360 Speaker 1: First of all, don't tell them directly, because if you 1196 00:59:03,400 --> 00:59:05,960 Speaker 1: tell them directly, they're going to defend the narcissists and say, 1197 00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:09,280 Speaker 1: how dare you diagnose my boyfriend? The best thing you 1198 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:12,720 Speaker 1: can do is take note of patterns and tell them 1199 00:59:12,720 --> 00:59:15,600 Speaker 1: you feel uncomfortable. Say you know what, Jill, I hope 1200 00:59:15,600 --> 00:59:17,760 Speaker 1: you're doing okay? You know I was. I just had 1201 00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,040 Speaker 1: a moment at dinner. He said something to you, and 1202 00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:22,720 Speaker 1: I don't know, it felt a little disrespectful. Are you okay? 1203 00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:26,760 Speaker 1: At that point, I'm not saying he's a jerk, I'm 1204 00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:29,880 Speaker 1: checking in with Jill. My goal in that was to 1205 00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:32,880 Speaker 1: plant a seat of doubt for Jill, like, something isn't 1206 00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:35,600 Speaker 1: quite right, because in that moment, Jill is already probably 1207 00:59:35,640 --> 00:59:38,560 Speaker 1: taking it on as something she's done, or Jill's like 1208 00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:42,520 Speaker 1: somebody just noticed, And that's the key that somebody notes, 1209 00:59:42,560 --> 00:59:45,800 Speaker 1: not calling him out, but reflecting on her, because you're 1210 00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:47,880 Speaker 1: noticing all these things that you're ignoring them, but then 1211 00:59:47,920 --> 00:59:50,040 Speaker 1: once somebody else points it out to you, then it's 1212 00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:53,600 Speaker 1: like an additional right. But but making it about her 1213 00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:55,760 Speaker 1: in citizening that he's a jerk, No, he's not. I 1214 00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,400 Speaker 1: noticed that he was talking to Are you okay? Makes sense? 1215 00:59:59,640 --> 01:00:01,360 Speaker 1: Nobody gonna break up with someone else because you tell 1216 01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:04,800 Speaker 1: them to. That just doesn't work. And also, you know, 1217 01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:07,480 Speaker 1: because there's so many things out there that say, like 1218 01:00:07,640 --> 01:00:12,680 Speaker 1: narcissism isn't treatable and no luck if somebody is a 1219 01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:15,520 Speaker 1: narcissist and they are in a marriage or they're in 1220 01:00:15,520 --> 01:00:18,600 Speaker 1: a situation where they want to get better. I know 1221 01:00:18,680 --> 01:00:21,439 Speaker 1: you said that they couldn't start being more aware of 1222 01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,240 Speaker 1: what they're saying when they're saying things to people, But like, 1223 01:00:25,560 --> 01:00:28,640 Speaker 1: what where is their hope if they really want to 1224 01:00:28,720 --> 01:00:31,360 Speaker 1: get this right, and they're willing to go into their 1225 01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,440 Speaker 1: own therapy, and they're willing to go into couples therapy 1226 01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:38,120 Speaker 1: and they're willing to do the daily hard work. You 1227 01:00:38,200 --> 01:00:40,919 Speaker 1: might be able to get a little bit, a little 1228 01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,840 Speaker 1: bit of movement and maybe enough movement to keep it 1229 01:00:43,880 --> 01:00:46,200 Speaker 1: all together, maybe to get the kids out of the house. 1230 01:00:46,440 --> 01:00:49,200 Speaker 1: Will narcissists actually go to therapy? Oh yeah, I'm gonna 1231 01:00:49,240 --> 01:00:51,240 Speaker 1: told you. I see them all the time, but like 1232 01:00:51,280 --> 01:00:55,720 Speaker 1: they're they're fine when they're wife And sometimes I call 1233 01:00:55,840 --> 01:00:57,720 Speaker 1: them out. I mean, I had one guy walking and 1234 01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:59,600 Speaker 1: before his but hit the chair. He's like, Hi, nice 1235 01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:01,080 Speaker 1: to meet you. The NARCISSI is, what can you do 1236 01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:03,200 Speaker 1: for me? I'm like, not much, but let's see what 1237 01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:04,880 Speaker 1: we get to. It's almost like someone brings in an 1238 01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:06,680 Speaker 1: old car and I'm like, it's probably just this is 1239 01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:08,600 Speaker 1: this one. We might sell this phone four parts, but 1240 01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:12,520 Speaker 1: you can't sell that. Questions. Yeah, one is if I 1241 01:01:13,000 --> 01:01:17,000 Speaker 1: or anyone listening was in like a strong, confident place, 1242 01:01:18,120 --> 01:01:22,080 Speaker 1: can you interact with the narcissists better? Absolutely? And can 1243 01:01:22,120 --> 01:01:25,160 Speaker 1: they not break you? Because I have to say, is 1244 01:01:25,240 --> 01:01:26,960 Speaker 1: somebody who does this? And it this is a long 1245 01:01:27,080 --> 01:01:29,120 Speaker 1: journey for me too, And I went through my own 1246 01:01:29,160 --> 01:01:33,480 Speaker 1: therapy with the Master. You know, is that really you do? 1247 01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:35,320 Speaker 1: Because what ends up happening is and I'm sure more 1248 01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:37,560 Speaker 1: than a few people have called me arrogant because once 1249 01:01:37,600 --> 01:01:39,959 Speaker 1: I sense there's a narcissist in the room, people also 1250 01:01:40,000 --> 01:01:42,120 Speaker 1: must think I have irritable bowel syndromes. I'm always thying, 1251 01:01:42,160 --> 01:01:43,920 Speaker 1: I have to go to the restroom, which is my 1252 01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,880 Speaker 1: waft getting out of the room. I've I've left dinner 1253 01:01:46,920 --> 01:01:49,880 Speaker 1: parties mid course. I won't. I won't stay in the 1254 01:01:49,880 --> 01:01:52,040 Speaker 1: presence of it. I mean, and I think that that's 1255 01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:54,280 Speaker 1: what you've got to remember. We all have the ability 1256 01:01:54,600 --> 01:01:58,080 Speaker 1: to step out of a situation where there's a narcissist present. 1257 01:01:59,120 --> 01:02:01,840 Speaker 1: Now I have three questions, so many questions. Now if 1258 01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:06,200 Speaker 1: you my question is like I feel like in certain 1259 01:02:06,240 --> 01:02:11,959 Speaker 1: situations that reciprocal thing was so not There is there 1260 01:02:12,080 --> 01:02:14,680 Speaker 1: edner any healing that could happen just for me standing 1261 01:02:14,760 --> 01:02:16,800 Speaker 1: up for myself. Like I know you all said, don't 1262 01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,200 Speaker 1: talk to him, don't talk to him, but it's like, well, 1263 01:02:19,240 --> 01:02:22,200 Speaker 1: I get anything from being like, Hey, you asked me 1264 01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:24,160 Speaker 1: to do this, and I did it, and this is 1265 01:02:24,200 --> 01:02:26,160 Speaker 1: what I need from you. No, but you're not going 1266 01:02:26,200 --> 01:02:27,800 Speaker 1: to get it. So if you're good with asking for 1267 01:02:27,880 --> 01:02:29,520 Speaker 1: it and not getting it, then do it. Well, could 1268 01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:31,160 Speaker 1: that be that proof that I'm looking for, and then 1269 01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:34,240 Speaker 1: if they did do it, then I would be like, oh, okay, 1270 01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,960 Speaker 1: if you're being honest with yourself that all you're doing 1271 01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:40,400 Speaker 1: is looking for proof, you know that really that I'm 1272 01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,040 Speaker 1: you know, I can't tell you how many people out 1273 01:02:42,080 --> 01:02:44,280 Speaker 1: there clients've worked with and said, yeah, I'm not looking 1274 01:02:44,320 --> 01:02:46,800 Speaker 1: at his phone, because as long as I don't look 1275 01:02:46,800 --> 01:02:49,560 Speaker 1: at his phone, I can pretend he's not having an affair. 1276 01:02:50,200 --> 01:02:52,480 Speaker 1: You know, they can stay in that relationship and in 1277 01:02:52,520 --> 01:02:54,640 Speaker 1: that delusion because they said, once I see it and 1278 01:02:54,680 --> 01:02:57,720 Speaker 1: I stay, then that makes me a real fool. And 1279 01:02:57,960 --> 01:03:01,200 Speaker 1: so you're thinking like, okay, like this is like a 1280 01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:03,560 Speaker 1: Santa Claus thing, Like yeah, I mean sorry to your 1281 01:03:03,600 --> 01:03:05,560 Speaker 1: listeners who believe in it, but like, yeah, sorry, the 1282 01:03:05,640 --> 01:03:08,720 Speaker 1: jig's up game. So um, yeah, I read this article 1283 01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,360 Speaker 1: about the fear of knowing verse versus the need to know. 1284 01:03:13,280 --> 01:03:15,240 Speaker 1: So it's the same thing here that you know, if 1285 01:03:15,240 --> 01:03:17,760 Speaker 1: you're really you have to figure out for yourself is 1286 01:03:17,800 --> 01:03:19,560 Speaker 1: what am I trying to do here? Am I really 1287 01:03:19,560 --> 01:03:21,919 Speaker 1: trying to get that last piece of information? And once 1288 01:03:21,960 --> 01:03:25,040 Speaker 1: I have that, then I'm going to go. My concern 1289 01:03:25,120 --> 01:03:26,760 Speaker 1: is that then there's going to be one more thing 1290 01:03:26,760 --> 01:03:28,320 Speaker 1: you need to know. Then there's gonna be one more 1291 01:03:28,320 --> 01:03:29,680 Speaker 1: thing you need to know, and then before you know, 1292 01:03:29,760 --> 01:03:31,439 Speaker 1: you've blinked your eyes in two more years have gone 1293 01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:33,760 Speaker 1: by and you've not been in a healthy place when 1294 01:03:33,800 --> 01:03:37,360 Speaker 1: you deserve so much better. Unsure on the answer on 1295 01:03:37,440 --> 01:03:41,200 Speaker 1: that one, I don't know yet. When it's happened in 1296 01:03:41,240 --> 01:03:47,600 Speaker 1: the past, does that last call? So I think for me, 1297 01:03:48,160 --> 01:03:51,640 Speaker 1: when I moved on from from one years ago, it 1298 01:03:51,760 --> 01:03:58,200 Speaker 1: was because I finally was like, I know, and then 1299 01:03:58,240 --> 01:04:02,320 Speaker 1: the move on was actually pretty easy, but it had 1300 01:04:02,360 --> 01:04:05,400 Speaker 1: been years of torture. So I think I have that 1301 01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,080 Speaker 1: a little bit in me. But you bring up an 1302 01:04:08,080 --> 01:04:09,920 Speaker 1: issue again. I write about it in this in a 1303 01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:12,240 Speaker 1: section of this book that my most recent book called 1304 01:04:12,280 --> 01:04:16,520 Speaker 1: the line. Everyone has the line that gets crossed. For you, 1305 01:04:16,600 --> 01:04:18,440 Speaker 1: it was within five years for you, it will be 1306 01:04:18,480 --> 01:04:20,680 Speaker 1: within a certain number of years I've been in relationships, 1307 01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,080 Speaker 1: or was a certain number of years, and so that 1308 01:04:23,200 --> 01:04:26,720 Speaker 1: line is very personal. Okay, for some people, it's knowing 1309 01:04:26,720 --> 01:04:30,360 Speaker 1: a partner cheated. For someone, it may be knowing that 1310 01:04:30,400 --> 01:04:32,520 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know that they broke the law. 1311 01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:34,520 Speaker 1: You know. For someone else, it would be that they 1312 01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:37,040 Speaker 1: cursed at them. I mean, the line varies depending on 1313 01:04:37,040 --> 01:04:40,240 Speaker 1: the person, but once that line gets crossed, that's where 1314 01:04:40,240 --> 01:04:43,040 Speaker 1: I see clients and people get mobilized to say I'm out. 1315 01:04:43,200 --> 01:04:46,120 Speaker 1: It could very well be that they spoke harshly to 1316 01:04:46,160 --> 01:04:48,680 Speaker 1: a child, like the first time they called a child 1317 01:04:48,680 --> 01:04:50,800 Speaker 1: that's like, okay, I'm not doing this. And I'm a 1318 01:04:50,800 --> 01:04:54,919 Speaker 1: friend who finally got divorced because it went from her 1319 01:04:55,040 --> 01:04:58,440 Speaker 1: to the child exactly. So when she left that that line, 1320 01:04:58,520 --> 01:05:00,320 Speaker 1: and I think that's what the question is. You're asking, 1321 01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:03,400 Speaker 1: is what is your line? And that's personal. And for me, 1322 01:05:03,600 --> 01:05:06,400 Speaker 1: I've always been very I never judge if a person 1323 01:05:06,440 --> 01:05:09,000 Speaker 1: says I'm going to wait another ten years. And in fact, 1324 01:05:09,000 --> 01:05:11,240 Speaker 1: probably the most beautiful book part of this book is 1325 01:05:11,240 --> 01:05:13,000 Speaker 1: a woman gave me a letter. She stayed in a 1326 01:05:13,080 --> 01:05:16,240 Speaker 1: narcissistic marriage ten years longer than she should have. I 1327 01:05:16,320 --> 01:05:18,440 Speaker 1: have a podcast and somebody had called in who was 1328 01:05:18,480 --> 01:05:20,919 Speaker 1: just in the beginning of such a marriage. This other 1329 01:05:21,000 --> 01:05:23,320 Speaker 1: listener sent this letter in to read to this woman. 1330 01:05:23,360 --> 01:05:25,080 Speaker 1: It was like, what happens to you when you say 1331 01:05:25,120 --> 01:05:29,080 Speaker 1: another ten years? It's brutal. It's brutal. You find this 1332 01:05:29,160 --> 01:05:32,120 Speaker 1: letter by buying my book and going to I think 1333 01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:34,800 Speaker 1: it's like three five or something. Well, and yeah, everybody's 1334 01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:38,040 Speaker 1: line is different because I have friends who whose line 1335 01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:42,560 Speaker 1: they would be out minute one and I'm like, oh, 1336 01:05:42,880 --> 01:05:47,120 Speaker 1: I'm gonna go back about so don't drudge your line though, 1337 01:05:47,160 --> 01:05:50,360 Speaker 1: that's my point. Everybody's everyone buying different. And then what 1338 01:05:50,480 --> 01:05:53,680 Speaker 1: happens is, though that line, your tolerance drops. Like next 1339 01:05:53,680 --> 01:05:55,560 Speaker 1: time for you, Jual, it's going to be you're going 1340 01:05:55,600 --> 01:05:57,560 Speaker 1: to get there a lot quicker. You're going to be 1341 01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:00,000 Speaker 1: much better at advocating for yourself because you're saying, Okay, 1342 01:06:00,040 --> 01:06:01,919 Speaker 1: now I know how this works. It's almost like taking 1343 01:06:02,000 --> 01:06:03,520 Speaker 1: a class, like you know, I know how to multiply, 1344 01:06:03,680 --> 01:06:08,240 Speaker 1: like I got you multiplication, like I got you narcissism. 1345 01:06:08,280 --> 01:06:11,440 Speaker 1: Which then, I mean, can we kind of dig into 1346 01:06:11,840 --> 01:06:16,040 Speaker 1: sex addiction. Why we're here? I mean, because I'm hearing 1347 01:06:16,120 --> 01:06:19,760 Speaker 1: so much close. They're very close. In fact, they're highly 1348 01:06:19,840 --> 01:06:21,959 Speaker 1: highly correlated. In fact, i'd say the bulk of sex 1349 01:06:22,000 --> 01:06:24,919 Speaker 1: addicts are probably narcissists and they're giving it a nicer name. 1350 01:06:25,800 --> 01:06:31,120 Speaker 1: And aren't therapists divided? Yes, yeah, sex addiction is a thing. Yeah, there, 1351 01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:34,080 Speaker 1: we're very divided. I am more of a this is 1352 01:06:34,120 --> 01:06:39,080 Speaker 1: sort of a disregulated narcissist. Because here's the thing. We 1353 01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:42,040 Speaker 1: don't call someone a sex addict if they're not in 1354 01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,760 Speaker 1: a monogamous relationship. So many times some some do. Like 1355 01:06:45,800 --> 01:06:47,920 Speaker 1: a person, let's say every night they're going to a 1356 01:06:47,920 --> 01:06:51,320 Speaker 1: different sex worker, or they watch porn twelve fourteen hours 1357 01:06:51,360 --> 01:06:54,080 Speaker 1: a day to the point where it's disrupting their life 1358 01:06:54,080 --> 01:06:57,960 Speaker 1: where they might be getting illnesses or you know, whatever 1359 01:06:58,000 --> 01:07:00,880 Speaker 1: it is. Whatever it may be, and they're in a relationship, 1360 01:07:01,000 --> 01:07:03,440 Speaker 1: we tend to sometimes be less likely to diagnose and 1361 01:07:03,520 --> 01:07:04,840 Speaker 1: less of persons like, yeah, I'm not going to work, 1362 01:07:04,880 --> 01:07:07,480 Speaker 1: so I watching porn all day. If the person is 1363 01:07:07,520 --> 01:07:10,280 Speaker 1: in a relationship, obviously it's causing much more disruption this 1364 01:07:10,400 --> 01:07:14,680 Speaker 1: kind of behavior because of um, because there's another person involved. 1365 01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,800 Speaker 1: When it involves they're in a relationship like a marriage 1366 01:07:17,880 --> 01:07:20,640 Speaker 1: or whatever, fiance or something, and they do this, then 1367 01:07:20,720 --> 01:07:23,160 Speaker 1: there's no empathy for that person. But some people will 1368 01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:26,840 Speaker 1: argue they're so disregulated it's like using drugs. They can't 1369 01:07:26,960 --> 01:07:30,120 Speaker 1: stop themselves. I've worked with more and more clients who 1370 01:07:30,160 --> 01:07:32,439 Speaker 1: are dealing with that disregulated sex, and I can see 1371 01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,160 Speaker 1: them not stop themselves. But like there's no emotional connection 1372 01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:37,880 Speaker 1: to the sex on this and none whatsoever. Like they're 1373 01:07:37,960 --> 01:07:40,320 Speaker 1: in there out like it's they're like, I'm not even 1374 01:07:40,320 --> 01:07:43,320 Speaker 1: feeling it, but even when they're seeing the aftermath truly 1375 01:07:43,400 --> 01:07:47,760 Speaker 1: affect their partner. So substitute drugs for sex then okay, 1376 01:07:48,280 --> 01:07:50,800 Speaker 1: So it's almost this is an addiction, So you're going 1377 01:07:50,840 --> 01:07:52,960 Speaker 1: to have to deal with It's a disregulated an addiction 1378 01:07:53,000 --> 01:07:56,720 Speaker 1: of disregulated behavior. They can't stop themselves. People who spend 1379 01:07:56,720 --> 01:07:58,400 Speaker 1: a lot, people who eat a lot, like these things 1380 01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:01,200 Speaker 1: do kind of cluster in the same space. And you know, 1381 01:08:01,280 --> 01:08:03,400 Speaker 1: I think that what is harder is that sex happens 1382 01:08:03,400 --> 01:08:06,440 Speaker 1: in an interpersonal space. It's different than eating a cheesecake 1383 01:08:06,640 --> 01:08:09,480 Speaker 1: or spending ten dollars at a shop or something. Could 1384 01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:11,440 Speaker 1: somebody be in a marriage that might not be a 1385 01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:13,760 Speaker 1: bad marriage, it's it might even be a good marriage, 1386 01:08:14,000 --> 01:08:16,840 Speaker 1: but they do have an emotional connection with someone else, 1387 01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:20,559 Speaker 1: and the sex with that person is emotional. You know, 1388 01:08:20,640 --> 01:08:23,000 Speaker 1: it's a tricky space because I mean, there's people out 1389 01:08:23,000 --> 01:08:26,000 Speaker 1: there in the polyamory community who would argue that's very possible. 1390 01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:28,679 Speaker 1: I have to say that here's here's the rule of thumb. 1391 01:08:29,560 --> 01:08:33,400 Speaker 1: If that if the spouse in that marriage found out 1392 01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:36,519 Speaker 1: and would be broken by it. Then I don't think 1393 01:08:36,520 --> 01:08:39,519 Speaker 1: that other relationship could ship could be healthy because you're 1394 01:08:39,560 --> 01:08:42,519 Speaker 1: engaging in something outside of your marriage that could devastate 1395 01:08:42,520 --> 01:08:44,559 Speaker 1: another human being. I always say to people, if you're cheating, 1396 01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,080 Speaker 1: if your partner is going to sign off on this 1397 01:08:46,200 --> 01:08:48,880 Speaker 1: and everyone's cool, which I've worked with plenty of couples 1398 01:08:48,880 --> 01:08:52,120 Speaker 1: where that's the case, that's then that's fine. So what 1399 01:08:52,160 --> 01:08:54,360 Speaker 1: does it say? So A lot of what I've heard 1400 01:08:54,400 --> 01:08:58,040 Speaker 1: when it comes to sex addiction and whatnot is that 1401 01:08:58,680 --> 01:09:02,680 Speaker 1: there's one partner that's that's doing it and then the 1402 01:09:02,720 --> 01:09:06,400 Speaker 1: other partner is not, and it's obviously devastated. But if 1403 01:09:06,439 --> 01:09:10,040 Speaker 1: it were to reverse that other partner would leave them. 1404 01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,080 Speaker 1: That's exactly right. So what does that? That's where it 1405 01:09:13,080 --> 01:09:17,479 Speaker 1: brings me to. That's a narcissist listening. Addiction of all 1406 01:09:17,560 --> 01:09:21,880 Speaker 1: forms and narcissism often hang out together in a significant 1407 01:09:21,960 --> 01:09:24,519 Speaker 1: chunk of cases, and what you'll sometimes see it's heartbreaking 1408 01:09:24,520 --> 01:09:26,920 Speaker 1: for families. Oh my god, this person is such a jerk, 1409 01:09:27,000 --> 01:09:28,760 Speaker 1: and it's because they're using drugs. And when we get 1410 01:09:28,760 --> 01:09:30,800 Speaker 1: them into rehab and they come out, everything's gonna be fine. 1411 01:09:31,160 --> 01:09:32,920 Speaker 1: They come out of rehab. Now they're sober and they're 1412 01:09:32,920 --> 01:09:35,920 Speaker 1: a jerk, which means the narcissism remained that the the 1413 01:09:36,000 --> 01:09:38,280 Speaker 1: drug or alcohol addiction is gone. Would be the same 1414 01:09:38,280 --> 01:09:41,800 Speaker 1: with any kind of an addictive state. Narcissistic people, because 1415 01:09:41,840 --> 01:09:44,160 Speaker 1: they're so empty, they need to regulate from the outside 1416 01:09:44,240 --> 01:09:46,640 Speaker 1: and they can't manage their feelings on their own, so 1417 01:09:46,680 --> 01:09:50,599 Speaker 1: they spend, They eat, they drink, they drug, they have sex, 1418 01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,600 Speaker 1: They do all these external behaviors to manage the emptiness 1419 01:09:54,680 --> 01:09:56,400 Speaker 1: and all the feelings they have because they don't know 1420 01:09:56,439 --> 01:09:58,200 Speaker 1: how to name them, they don't know how to talk 1421 01:09:58,200 --> 01:09:59,640 Speaker 1: with them about them, and they don't know how to 1422 01:09:59,680 --> 01:10:02,160 Speaker 1: be with them, which is why they have big appetites, 1423 01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:04,280 Speaker 1: and that's why they spend so much money. And it's 1424 01:10:04,320 --> 01:10:07,679 Speaker 1: like always regulating, regulating, regulating, And that's like a coal 1425 01:10:07,880 --> 01:10:10,479 Speaker 1: of damage that I filled the whole. That's what you did. 1426 01:10:10,520 --> 01:10:12,519 Speaker 1: You filled the whole until something else will fill the whole. 1427 01:10:12,880 --> 01:10:14,920 Speaker 1: Like you're just you're on a conveyor belt of whole 1428 01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:18,599 Speaker 1: filling things. But it did feel emotional at the time, 1429 01:10:18,680 --> 01:10:21,560 Speaker 1: But talk to an addict, that's what they're filling. To 1430 01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:24,040 Speaker 1: talk to someone who does a ton of coke or 1431 01:10:24,040 --> 01:10:26,840 Speaker 1: smokes weed all the time. They're filling a hole and 1432 01:10:26,920 --> 01:10:29,240 Speaker 1: I felt like a crack addictive. That's right, And so 1433 01:10:29,240 --> 01:10:31,720 Speaker 1: that's what I'm saying. That's where we use the term codependency. 1434 01:10:32,240 --> 01:10:34,000 Speaker 1: So you feel like you need it, you have to 1435 01:10:34,040 --> 01:10:36,760 Speaker 1: have it. But in the same way, like you know, 1436 01:10:36,800 --> 01:10:39,679 Speaker 1: a narcissist isn't going to have empathy. If a sex 1437 01:10:39,720 --> 01:10:43,240 Speaker 1: addict is caught cheating by his wife, will he feel empathy? 1438 01:10:43,280 --> 01:10:46,000 Speaker 1: It depends. If they're narcissistic, probably not. If it's a 1439 01:10:46,000 --> 01:10:48,080 Speaker 1: person who's struggling with sex addiction, they may actually be 1440 01:10:48,120 --> 01:10:51,280 Speaker 1: really remorseful. But how can you tell? How can you know? 1441 01:10:51,400 --> 01:10:54,080 Speaker 1: I think part of it is commitment to treatment. It's 1442 01:10:54,200 --> 01:10:58,080 Speaker 1: um coming clean about it. It's taking ownership clean prior 1443 01:10:58,120 --> 01:11:02,840 Speaker 1: to getting caught, coming clean prior getting caught. Exactly, yes, exactly, 1444 01:11:03,320 --> 01:11:08,559 Speaker 1: that's really what it is. And then what because we 1445 01:11:08,640 --> 01:11:11,040 Speaker 1: know the red flags for a narcissists, what are the 1446 01:11:11,120 --> 01:11:15,040 Speaker 1: red flags if you're getting into a relationship with somebody 1447 01:11:15,040 --> 01:11:17,640 Speaker 1: who has a sex addiction. I think that you know, 1448 01:11:17,720 --> 01:11:19,519 Speaker 1: first of all, there could be things like you know, 1449 01:11:20,200 --> 01:11:22,519 Speaker 1: if you come into knowledge of somehow see that there 1450 01:11:22,640 --> 01:11:25,240 Speaker 1: they are engaging in a lot of porn news. If 1451 01:11:25,320 --> 01:11:29,360 Speaker 1: they are um their sexual wants, needs, asks or something 1452 01:11:29,439 --> 01:11:32,800 Speaker 1: that they're not communicating clearly, you feel uncomfortable to you. 1453 01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:36,320 Speaker 1: They start talking about their sexual history and it's something like, okay, 1454 01:11:36,400 --> 01:11:38,479 Speaker 1: it's more elaborated than you thought, and it's okay to 1455 01:11:38,520 --> 01:11:40,720 Speaker 1: be uncomfortable with that and ask more questions about it. 1456 01:11:40,720 --> 01:11:42,679 Speaker 1: It's often something hard to suss out in the beginning, 1457 01:11:42,720 --> 01:11:45,000 Speaker 1: have to be honest with you. A lot of people 1458 01:11:45,000 --> 01:11:49,080 Speaker 1: will say they were blindsided by this because so personal 1459 01:11:49,400 --> 01:11:51,960 Speaker 1: porn can be watched. It's not like the old days, right, 1460 01:11:52,000 --> 01:11:55,280 Speaker 1: the VHS days, like you're onto it. Nowadays you can 1461 01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:57,519 Speaker 1: park in you know, parking a lot and watch your 1462 01:11:57,560 --> 01:12:00,559 Speaker 1: porn before you go into the office. Nobody is the wiser. 1463 01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:03,479 Speaker 1: So people will walk in on people, they'll see, you know, 1464 01:12:03,520 --> 01:12:06,439 Speaker 1: they'll see the you know, the cash and a computer. 1465 01:12:06,920 --> 01:12:09,240 Speaker 1: Whatever they see that it might come out in that way. 1466 01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,759 Speaker 1: But if somebody, for example, who goes on business trips 1467 01:12:11,760 --> 01:12:14,200 Speaker 1: a lot and see sex workers on those business trips 1468 01:12:14,240 --> 01:12:16,160 Speaker 1: and has like people they know who to pay in 1469 01:12:16,200 --> 01:12:18,880 Speaker 1: those cities or something like that, that's hard to that's 1470 01:12:18,880 --> 01:12:20,920 Speaker 1: hard to track because they often like they have no 1471 01:12:21,000 --> 01:12:23,240 Speaker 1: relationship with that person other than having sex with them 1472 01:12:23,280 --> 01:12:24,920 Speaker 1: when they go to that city. I mean, I've I've 1473 01:12:24,920 --> 01:12:27,680 Speaker 1: heard so many variants of this. Somebody wants to hide this. 1474 01:12:27,720 --> 01:12:29,800 Speaker 1: They'll hide this just like any addict can hide it. 1475 01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:32,840 Speaker 1: And a sex attict is not going to sex to 1476 01:12:32,920 --> 01:12:36,200 Speaker 1: get validation, it's to regulate. It's filling a different kind 1477 01:12:36,240 --> 01:12:39,240 Speaker 1: of need and sometimes those two overlap. I have so 1478 01:12:39,280 --> 01:12:47,400 Speaker 1: many more questions time. Yeah, well, thank you so much. 1479 01:12:47,560 --> 01:12:51,439 Speaker 1: I feel like people honestly right and ask us more questions. 1480 01:12:52,160 --> 01:12:54,160 Speaker 1: We can do this again because I want to get 1481 01:12:54,160 --> 01:12:56,879 Speaker 1: all your questions answered. I mean, I still have more questions, 1482 01:12:56,960 --> 01:13:00,320 Speaker 1: So thank you so much. My absolute pleasu with thank 1483 01:13:00,320 --> 01:13:02,360 Speaker 1: you again. Thank you for being so open and honest too, 1484 01:13:02,439 --> 01:13:04,720 Speaker 1: because I think that helps people who are listening to 1485 01:13:04,760 --> 01:13:08,040 Speaker 1: realize how painful that this is. And they're not foolish. 1486 01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:10,479 Speaker 1: They did something very pure and honest. They fell in love. 1487 01:13:10,680 --> 01:13:14,839 Speaker 1: That's not that. Never blame yourself for that. Very true. Well, 1488 01:13:14,880 --> 01:13:17,720 Speaker 1: I know I personally am going to be reading your 1489 01:13:17,920 --> 01:13:22,479 Speaker 1: fault books, but take your life back? And should I 1490 01:13:22,680 --> 01:13:25,040 Speaker 1: stay or should I go? Oh? My goodness, is the 1491 01:13:25,080 --> 01:13:29,360 Speaker 1: new book? Don't you know who I am? How to stay? 1492 01:13:29,400 --> 01:13:33,639 Speaker 1: Sane in an era of narcissism, entitlement, and shoot, now 1493 01:13:33,680 --> 01:13:38,160 Speaker 1: you're just tell me about that incivilitylity? Does that mean 1494 01:13:38,200 --> 01:13:41,840 Speaker 1: I don't have that. It's the world today, it's the 1495 01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:45,000 Speaker 1: world I can read ish. Thank you, Thank you so 1496 01:13:45,080 --> 01:13:48,920 Speaker 1: much for having me. Thank you, thanks for listening. Subscribe 1497 01:13:48,960 --> 01:13:55,280 Speaker 1: to radio or wherever you listen to podcasts. Okay, I'm 1498 01:13:55,320 --> 01:13:55,960 Speaker 1: going to come back and