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Speaker 1: What do you remember about the twenty sixteen film Jackie.

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Speaker 2: I just remember Natalie Portman being incredible, you know. I

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Speaker 2: guess I remembered all the conversation being around like how

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Speaker 2: many shooters there were whatever, But like the portrayal of

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Speaker 2: the actual moments afterward, I had never really been I

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Speaker 2: don't know privy to or read up on or whatever,

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Speaker 2: but like, you know, just him being rushed to this

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Speaker 2: hospital and Jackie being you know, kind of trying to

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Speaker 2: figure out how to stay in the conversation and do

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, like make sure that she

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Speaker 2: wasn't being pushed out of her husband's like last moments.

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Speaker 3: I'm George Savers, I'm Lyra Smith, and this is United

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Speaker 3: States of Kennedy, a podcast about our cultural fascination with

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Speaker 3: the Kennedy dynasty. Every week we go into one aspect

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Speaker 3: of the Kennedy story, and today, in our second Kennedy

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Speaker 3: movie episode, we're talking about Pablo Lorraine's twenty sixteen film Jackie,

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Speaker 3: starring Natalie Portman as Jackie Kennedy in the moments before, during,

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Speaker 3: and after her husband's assassination.

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Speaker 1: Originally conceived as a much more expansive HBO mini series,

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Speaker 1: spanning the four days between JFK's assassination and funeral, and

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Speaker 1: was ultimately rewritten as a feature film focused on just

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Speaker 1: Jackie's experience of that time.

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Speaker 3: So it's framed around an interview Jackie does with an

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Speaker 3: unnamed journalist in Hyanna'sport, Massachusetts, and the story is told

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Speaker 3: in a series of dream like flashbacks, and the interview

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Speaker 3: itself is loosely based on Theodore H. White's extensive interview

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Speaker 3: with Jackie and Life magazine in November nineteen sixty three.

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Speaker 1: While doing press for the film, Natalie Portman talked a

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Speaker 1: lot about her in depth research into Jackie's life, as

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Speaker 1: well as her work with a vocal coach to get

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Speaker 1: Jackie's accent and voice just right.

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Speaker 3: Unfortunately, the same camp be said of Peter Starsgard, who

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Speaker 3: plays Bobby Kennedy in the movie, but more on that later.

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Speaker 3: Portman was nominated for an Oscar for the role, eventually

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Speaker 3: losing to Emma Stone for Lalloland, which did not sit

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Speaker 3: quite right with our guests today.

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Speaker 4: That's right.

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Speaker 1: Our guest Hunter Harris was a staff writer at Vulture

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Speaker 1: at the time, and she wrote multiple appreciations of Jackie

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Speaker 1: for the website.

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Speaker 3: Hunter now writes the wildly popular substack newsletter Hung Up,

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Speaker 3: and co hosts the podcast let me say this, Hunter,

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Speaker 3: Welcome to the United States of Kennedy.

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Speaker 5: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: We should say the reason you are here is because

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Speaker 3: I hosted about the podcast when it was announced, I said,

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Speaker 3: I'm so excited to be hosting a podcast about the Kennedy's,

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Speaker 3: and then you responded, you better do an episode about

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Speaker 3: Jackie parentheses twenty sixteen pabl lorraines at your film, and

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Speaker 3: so I know that there's a lot of lore with

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Speaker 3: you in this movie. You've written about it a bunch

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Speaker 3: of times. I actually wanted to come out and be like,

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Speaker 3: you've written about it four times, but then the Google

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Speaker 3: results kept coming and I actually wasn't sure how many times,

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Speaker 3: including the newsletter, you have written about it. You have

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Speaker 3: a lot of opinions about it that have become I

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Speaker 3: would say, almost like recurring bits. So I want to

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Speaker 3: just know what is your relationship with this movie.

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Speaker 6: I saw it in a movie theater, Humble Beginnings, and

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Speaker 6: it just blew me away.

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Speaker 4: It truly.

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Speaker 6: I was like, this is one of the most faculous

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Speaker 6: movies I've seen this year. And if you remember twenty sixteen,

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Speaker 6: that was like the Moonlight Year, the La La Land Year,

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Speaker 6: the twenty Century Women Year. There's so many good movies

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Speaker 6: that year. And I think probably a big part of

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Speaker 6: why I feel so much affections to this movie is

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Speaker 6: that it felt like no one was talking about it,

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Speaker 6: and truly it just Yeah. Even rewatching it to talk

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Speaker 6: about it today, I was like, Wow, that Natalie Portman

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Speaker 6: good actress.

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Speaker 2: It is.

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Speaker 3: There is this recurring thing with Natalie porp and I

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Speaker 3: feel where she is always giving a really interesting, out

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Speaker 3: of the box performance during a year when she has

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Speaker 3: no chance. It's like Annihilation, vox Lux, Like there's just

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Speaker 3: all these movies where you're like, well, you know, maybe

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Speaker 3: in a different year, this could be a frontrunner, but

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Speaker 3: it's it's not gonna happen, right.

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Speaker 6: Maybe part of winning an Oscar so when you're pretty young.

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Speaker 6: Although she was like a child actress, so she just

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Speaker 6: has like ben I think culturally, I don't know, she

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Speaker 6: kind of feels like such a squarely millennial actress in

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Speaker 6: which there's like a Natalie Portman movie that coincides with

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Speaker 6: like every part of my adolescence early twenties now early thirties,

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Speaker 6: Like I can almost graft my own coming of age

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Speaker 6: onto like Natalie Portman performance or movie, whether it be

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Speaker 6: like the Mani Pixie Dreamgirls stuff or the Black Swan,

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Speaker 6: you know, more serious actressy stuff or like that which

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Speaker 6: made the jig Jillen Hall.

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Speaker 4: To buyer movie Brothers. Yes, and it's like what the

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Speaker 4: fuck was that era? And then all the way down to.

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Speaker 6: Jackie where I'm like, oh my gosh, really devastating that performance?

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Speaker 6: Do not get more attention?

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Speaker 1: Well, it's really funny also when you realize that it's

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Speaker 1: Nali Portman and Peter stars Guard and they were in

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Speaker 1: Garden State together, which is to me like the millennial foundational.

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Speaker 1: I don't know how I should feel about it now, honestly,

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Speaker 1: because when I tried to rewatch it as an adult,

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Speaker 1: it had lost all the magic for me. But I'm

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Speaker 1: mad at myself for saying that, because as a teenager,

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Speaker 1: I was so in love with it and it became

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Speaker 1: part of who I was because I was just so

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Speaker 1: blown away by it. And then it's so funny to

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Speaker 1: see them now being Jackie and Bobby.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it really is sort of the reality bites of

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Speaker 3: our generation in any ways, in both good and bad ways.

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Speaker 3: I do want to get to Peter Star's guard because

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Speaker 3: I know you have strong opinions about him as well.

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Speaker 3: But before we do, what was your relationship to Jackie

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Speaker 3: the person before this movie? Are you someone who cares

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Speaker 3: about the Kennedys. Do you care about Jackie as like

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Speaker 3: a fashion icon is like a you know, wronged woman

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Speaker 3: in American history?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 4: Not really, I wish it were different.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: I really had not thought very critically about Jackie Nassis

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Speaker 6: or like Kennedy family in any really rigorous way before

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Speaker 6: seeing this movie, and then it can I mean not

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Speaker 6: to say that it taught me something, but it did

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Speaker 6: make me think.

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Speaker 4: It's just such a I think Jackie as.

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Speaker 6: A movie that's so perceptive about like grief, obviously, media

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Speaker 6: and image making and like myth making. I just loved

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Speaker 6: the idea that like in every frame of this movie,

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Speaker 6: Natalie Portman is like screaming, crying, has like blood on

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Speaker 6: her body, and it's like, wait, can you guys like

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Speaker 6: pay give me a little bit of attention please? Sorry,

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Speaker 6: my husband just died. Does no one else feel any

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Speaker 6: of that? That is kind of like how grief feels

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Speaker 6: like it is the center of your life and you

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Speaker 6: think it would be the center of everyone else's life,

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Speaker 6: and at every opportunity someone's like, right, but my husband

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Speaker 6: didn't die, so I cannot share this moment with you.

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Speaker 6: And it is just being confronted with that again and again,

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Speaker 6: that sense of pure devastation and also rage.

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Speaker 4: I thought this was such a good movie for that.

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Speaker 1: I mean that moment when they're swearing Johnson in and

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Speaker 1: it's like everyone is holding back their smiles. Yeah, and

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Speaker 1: you can understand that they're not, you know, giving every.

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Speaker 4: Single person the benefit of the doubt.

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Speaker 1: I mean, our last movie was JFK, which definitely would

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Speaker 1: have pointed fingers at a lot of those people. But

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Speaker 1: how could Leebird not be a bit proud that now

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Speaker 1: her husband is president. No matter how horrible the circumstances,

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Speaker 1: it still is like a monumental moment for them. And

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Speaker 1: that is one thing that I saw as a technical

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Speaker 1: inaccuracy that gets cited a lot about this movie, is

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Speaker 1: that the interpretation is that her relationship with the Johnson's

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Speaker 1: is really strained and negative or adversarial, even like in

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Speaker 1: this movie.

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Speaker 4: But I watched it three times.

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Speaker 3: Lyra watched it three times in the last twenty four hours.

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Speaker 6: Is that like in a good way you watched it

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Speaker 6: three times, or like I watched it three times.

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Speaker 4: I watched it it a good.

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Speaker 1: Way, And I would argue that those moments are not

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Speaker 1: about their interpersonal relationships. It's about what you were just saying,

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Speaker 1: Like it's about her experiencing extreme grief and being alone

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Speaker 1: in it.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 6: No, I mean, and that's a really I'm glad you

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Speaker 6: brought up that scene because I do like the way

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Speaker 6: that it kind.

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Speaker 4: Of introduces this level of seething disgust at everything that's

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Speaker 4: happening on that scene. Like as she's watching, there's like

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Speaker 4: a moment where she.

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Speaker 6: Watches someone address LBJ as mister president, and it's I

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Speaker 6: don't know, but I just got the sense upon rewatching

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Speaker 6: it this time that like it's like someone's like calling

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Speaker 6: another man by her husband's name. It's like it's really

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Speaker 6: upsetting to her, like how dare you pass this along

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Speaker 6: so quickly? Like that's my husband's title. And again in

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Speaker 6: that scene too, it's like she's almost just like dead

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Speaker 6: weight in the room and the way that everyone came

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Speaker 6: to kind of like walk around her or avoid her,

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Speaker 6: and obviously she's I mean, it's like I can't imagine

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Speaker 6: how traumatic it's like living through a nightmare.

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Speaker 4: Truly.

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Speaker 6: She's like bowling on about like we need the bagpipes,

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Speaker 6: we need like the flutes, all this stuff, and no

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Speaker 6: one really knows how to handle her. And there's this

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Speaker 6: weird you know, when a straight man sees a woman

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Speaker 6: with any emotionality is just like, oh my gosh, like,

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Speaker 6: someone handle her, please, And I like that. Jackie and

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Speaker 6: Alie Portman like both I'm guessing Jackie in real life,

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Speaker 6: well not Alie Portman in this movie, are both really

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Speaker 6: defiant and like, no, we are all going to be

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Speaker 6: uncomfortable right now. Actually, it's like almost kind of housewivesy

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Speaker 6: in in the insistence to.

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Speaker 4: Be the center of attention, and I think greatly so.

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Speaker 3: She is sort of like, at the same time the

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Speaker 3: most important person in the room and the least important

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Speaker 3: person in the room. And I think so much of

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Speaker 3: the drama comes out of that tension, because on the

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Speaker 3: one hand, she is of course the widow and literally

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Speaker 3: died in her lap, so obviously she is the one

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Speaker 3: whose opinion matters most, She's the one planning the funeral whatever.

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Speaker 3: But then on the other hand, you get the sense

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Speaker 3: that there are all these people that are in the

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Speaker 3: political context more important than her, and she's like a

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Speaker 3: thorn in their side that they just have to appease

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Speaker 3: in order to get through the day and keep things moving.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, so she's like some type of formality. There's that

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Speaker 6: also line when one of the handlers is like, well,

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Speaker 6: we need to like take his body to the autopsy

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Speaker 6: and she's like, well, says who who?

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Speaker 4: Why do we do that?

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Speaker 6: And it's like, well, the law and she's like, well,

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Speaker 6: tell me everything, like that little moment, And I think

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Speaker 6: later in the movie shows a line about how like

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Speaker 6: I should have been a shopkeeper, I should have married

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Speaker 6: like a fat, lazy, ugly man, all of this stuff,

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Speaker 6: And I think, George, to your point, like being formally

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Speaker 6: the most important woman in the room, to like being

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Speaker 6: the kind of freak show that everyone's like avoiding. That

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Speaker 6: instant loss of power is like another level of the

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Speaker 6: grief and the loss that's that play here, And I

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Speaker 6: think the movie keeps that like that power dynamic at

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Speaker 6: the center in a really deft way.

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Speaker 1: And according to the you know biography, the Jackie Pup

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Speaker 1: Private Secret, that's very accurate. She spoke to her family

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Speaker 1: about feeling the loss of power, that it wasn't something

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Speaker 1: that she had sought for most of her life, but

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Speaker 1: then once she had it, she really enjoyed it and

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Speaker 1: really wanted to do something with it, and then in

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Speaker 1: an instant is no longer personally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, And also it's unclear where that power that she

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Speaker 3: had acquired gradually over the years, it's unclear where that stands.

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Speaker 3: And you get some peaks into her psyche in regards

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Speaker 3: to that as well, when she's talking about how, like

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Speaker 3: other presidential widows, ended up immediately losing everything or having

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Speaker 3: to like sell furniture in order to make it work.

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Speaker 3: And there's also a way in which this movie, honestly,

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Speaker 3: part of why I resisted it for so long was

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Speaker 3: because it sold as this like universal story of grief,

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Speaker 3: And honestly, a lot of the reviews talk about how

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Speaker 3: it is, you know, at its core, about grief, and

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Speaker 3: I'm just like, I mean, yes, and no, this is

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Speaker 3: such a particular thing that can only happen to such

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Speaker 3: a particular person that I can't imagine like relating to this.

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Speaker 3: And then when I finally saw it, I was like, oh,

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Speaker 3: I see, I think what it's doing is that it's

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Speaker 3: operating at such a like operatic level, Yeah, which is

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Speaker 3: in fact, just how grief feels to you. Yeah, when

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Speaker 3: you are losing someone, like, yeah, you because it is

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Speaker 3: when you lose the person that is the most important

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Speaker 3: to you. You might as well be the first lady

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Speaker 3: with blood on her dress on television because it feels

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Speaker 3: like everything is being destroyed around you.

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Speaker 6: Yeah. No, And I entirely I think that level of

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Speaker 6: like there's so much stakes attached to like, he's the

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Speaker 6: president and this is like the first modern assassination, and

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Speaker 6: and you know, what do we do about the children?

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Speaker 4: And I mean when she.

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Speaker 6: Tells Kennedy's mom, well, president cannot be buried in brookline,

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Speaker 6: Let's be serious, please, all of that stuff feels at

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Speaker 6: once so heightened and like almost unrealistic.

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Speaker 4: And yeah, in the wake of losing.

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Speaker 6: Someone, I feel like you keep trying to prove this

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Speaker 6: is devastating. Why don't you understand how devastating this is.

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Speaker 6: That it's like kind of the argument that she's making

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Speaker 6: again and again and again. And I also like how

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Speaker 6: there is a lot of uncertainty to her how she

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Speaker 6: goes about it. Really seemed the movie does a really

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Speaker 6: good job of showing that like it wasn't some grand

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Speaker 6: Master scheme. She is kind of drunk, putting on her dresses,

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Speaker 6: walking around her home like she's a ghost already, because

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Speaker 6: they're basically making her move out and plan a funeral

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Speaker 6: and do all these things at once, and she's kind

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Speaker 6: of making it up, like how can I keep their

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Speaker 6: attention on my husband and establish his legacy, which is

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Speaker 6: really a way of like making a case for herself

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Speaker 6: as like we were important, and I was important, and

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Speaker 6: I'm kind of alone on this team, and I think

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Speaker 6: I like the way that like Bobby Kennedy is both

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Speaker 6: an accomplice in that effort, and then also she feels

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Speaker 6: betrayed by him obviously making it the legacy of the

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Speaker 6: priority and not so much like her kids herself, and

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Speaker 6: that kind of like back and forth again just knows

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Speaker 6: like how imperfect it is to really build a myth,

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Speaker 6: and how it wasn't foretold that they would become what

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Speaker 6: they became.

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Speaker 3: And so much of the flashbacks to her giving the

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Speaker 3: who of the White House are so much about her

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Speaker 3: participating in this narrative building about America's history. These are

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Speaker 3: all objects that are important because they show us the

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Speaker 3: gravity of the White House and the gravity of American

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Speaker 3: history and all this stuff, and you see her after

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Speaker 3: the assassination almost doing that in real time with her

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Speaker 3: own husband. She's trying to build the myth and build

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Speaker 3: the narrative, and there's almost this race between the myth

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Speaker 3: making and the actual reality of what's happening. Is rushing

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Speaker 3: to build the myth that shows that she and her

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Speaker 3: husband were important before they run out of time and

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Speaker 3: are no longer in the history books.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's yeah, that's the line that JFK says

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Speaker 1: when he enters at the end of the tour, something

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Speaker 1: along the lines of like, I think it's really important

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Speaker 1: what she's doing here because it shows us that real

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Speaker 1: men lived here, and it's like a real man lived here,

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Speaker 1: is I feel like was my takeaway even from watching

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Speaker 1: Jackie this time, because it's like we've done a lot

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Speaker 1: of reading on the Kennedys and on this specific time,

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Speaker 1: and you know, honestly, at a certain point, it's like

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Speaker 1: they just become names on a piece of paper because

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Speaker 1: it's hard to like consistently remember the humanity when they're

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Speaker 1: like larger than life figures and they're just icons and

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Speaker 1: that's like something we talked about here, But this movie

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Speaker 1: was so human. She was such a human. It was

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Speaker 1: like the exact opposite of the icon. It was like

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Speaker 1: seeing all of the underneath the background of the reality

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Speaker 1: that makes an icon.

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Speaker 4: I was pretty wiped out by it emotionally. I cried.

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Speaker 4: I love when people love it. I really do.

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Speaker 6: There are so many things about it that, you know,

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Speaker 6: I think biopics in general like very hard and also

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Speaker 6: pretty controversial. Either you really like a biopic or you

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Speaker 6: just hate all biopics, which I understand. But I think

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Speaker 6: focusing in on these three specific moments, the assassination, the

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Speaker 6: immediate aftermath, and then also like the White House tour,

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Speaker 6: feels very like not to say that's the most interesting

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Speaker 6: part of one person's entire experience, but that that's like

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Speaker 6: a uniquely charge moment in which it's very revealing about her,

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Speaker 6: about the way power works in DC, and also about

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Speaker 6: the family at large in an interesting way. And also

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Speaker 6: I like how I mean, just practically, there are so

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Speaker 6: many little moments about humanity. Where she is walking across

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Speaker 6: on the National Cemetery and it's raining in like her

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Speaker 6: foot her heels keepetting stuck in the mud, and it's

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Speaker 6: like those things are just so like or when she's

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Speaker 6: like looking out of the window, she's looking at the

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Speaker 6: crowd and they're looking at her, and it just feels

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Speaker 6: like at once so lonely and so isolated, and yet

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Speaker 6: it's like what, you're surrounded by people who want to share.

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Speaker 6: I think she has that line, like the priest told

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Speaker 6: me they want to share my grief, so I let them,

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Speaker 6: And that feels at once so intimate and also like

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Speaker 6: completely impossible.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the smallness of it. I mean, obviously it's a

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Speaker 3: very grand movie because it's obviously about the very major

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Speaker 3: event in American history. But the smallness of it in

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Speaker 3: the fact that it focuses on all these individual events

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Speaker 3: and the fact that most scenes are either just her

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Speaker 3: or her in one other person. Yeah, when there's a crowd,

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Speaker 3: it's more like symbolic of the idea of a crowd.

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Speaker 3: It's almost like less about any of the real specifics

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Speaker 3: and more about what they symbolize. Like I kept thinking,

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Speaker 3: now that I have all this knowledge about the Kennedy's,

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Speaker 3: I would have a different outlook on this movie. And

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Speaker 3: I didn't like the priest symbolizes religion. The journalist symbolizes

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Speaker 3: the media, the Bobby symbolizes the family, expectations and whatever.

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Speaker 3: Like there is certain things symbolize, like the mythology of America.

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Speaker 3: You basically can project anything onto it. Like it's kind

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Speaker 3: of beside the point that she even is playing Jackie Kennedy.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, No, And I think that is kind of part

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Speaker 6: of it for me, that Natalie Portman who I mean,

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Speaker 6: at least when I first heard about this movie, but

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Speaker 6: like an unusual choice.

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Speaker 4: They don't look very much alike.

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Speaker 6: Not that I really I don't know how tall or

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Speaker 6: petite Jackie Kennedy actually was, but it's.

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Speaker 1: Like she's all seven five four five three. Yeah, Like

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Speaker 1: I looked it up because I was thinking.

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Speaker 4: About it the whole time. No, that's funny because I do.

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Speaker 6: It's like, I'm curious talking about this with you both,

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Speaker 6: because you're such experts in topic. But it gets at

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Speaker 6: such an emotional, raw truth that like kind of the politics,

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Speaker 6: like the specifics of a moment feel less important than

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Speaker 6: the fact that, like, I mean, what would you do

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Speaker 6: if your husband's head had just been shot and fallen

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Speaker 6: into your lap?

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Speaker 4: There's no other way.

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Speaker 6: It's magnificent that she was able to get on the

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Speaker 6: plane after that. But I feel like the Natalie Portman

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Speaker 6: of it all both makes it feel not exactly history

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Speaker 6: and maybe let's set the facade drop a little bit

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Speaker 6: less where it's like, this is a movie about a

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Speaker 6: woman whose husband just died, and not a movie but

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Speaker 6: the capitol k Kennedy's.

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Speaker 7: Well.

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Speaker 1: The thing is the development of this is that originally

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Speaker 1: it was going to be a mini series on HBO

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Speaker 1: about the four days following the assassination, and then it

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Speaker 1: changed into it being a movie that was going to

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Speaker 1: be directed by Darren Aronofsky starring Rachel Weiss, and then

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Speaker 1: when they got divorced, they said goodbye to the project.

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Speaker 1: And then once Natalie Portman signed on, which took like years,

390
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Speaker 1: like this this is over the course of like many years,

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Speaker 1: Pablo Lorraine went to the screenwriter, Noah Oppenheim, and said,

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Speaker 1: cut any scene that Jackie's not in, and so they

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Speaker 1: took twenty pages out of the one hundred and twenty

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Speaker 1: page script. And it's amazing to me, like how much

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Speaker 1: stronger that made the movie because of this, because of

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Speaker 1: all like the intensity of it being so focused on her.

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Speaker 1: It's like that the Amy Winehouse documentary where every shot

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Speaker 1: is just her.

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Speaker 4: And then you know narration from the interviews and stuff.

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Speaker 3: It's funny that it was it almost came about by

401
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,439
Speaker 3: accident or by a series of sort of random events,

402
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Speaker 3: because then it kind of ushered in this era of

403
00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:55,280
Speaker 3: Pablo Lorraine movies that are all different versions of this,

404
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Speaker 3: because you know, this was the first of the three

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Speaker 3: that are like Jackie Spencer, Maria Hunter, what is your

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Speaker 3: relationship with Pablo Lorraine more broadly.

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Speaker 6: Saw Spencer, did not see Maria. You know, I did

408
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Speaker 6: not really care for Spencer. It almost felt like the

409
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Speaker 6: exact same movie, but just in a less intense, like

410
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Speaker 6: a watered down version of the same movie, basically because

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Speaker 6: like the sense of opulence and isolation and extreme inner

412
00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 6: turmoil just did not connect. Maybe because the moment itself

413
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Speaker 6: did not feel as charged as like if you're looking

414
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Speaker 6: at Jackie HENI was one very specific moment to talk

415
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Speaker 6: about the assassination. But with Diana it felt like, I

416
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Speaker 6: don't know, maybe because she it feels like more recently,

417
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Speaker 6: there's so much more to talk about, like maybe it

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Speaker 6: could have been that same birdles could have been this day.

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Speaker 6: It just never And I'm also not really like a royalist,

420
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Speaker 6: So maybe that's why I didn't connect. I just don't

421
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Speaker 6: think it's as good of a movie, honestly. And I

422
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Speaker 6: wondered too how much because I think Dannernovski was the

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Speaker 6: EP of Jackie, but not of the others, and I

424
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Speaker 6: wonder how much like that plays apart. Also, maybe the

425
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Speaker 6: script feels a lot different. Also, Spielberg was also a

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Speaker 6: producer on Jackie.

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Speaker 4: Oh, I don't know. Yeah, it shows I.

428
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Speaker 1: Believe it was him who wanted Pablo Lorraine, and Pablo

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Speaker 1: Lorraine said, I've never made a movie with a female protagonist.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I can do it. And then it

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Speaker 1: like completely changed his career. Now he's simply addicted to women.

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Speaker 4: No, I know.

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Speaker 6: I was gonna say, the irony of him like making

434
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Speaker 6: like literally three women one, two, three and not defending

435
00:21:21,520 --> 00:21:23,919
Speaker 6: women interesting enough before that is pretty funny.

436
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Speaker 4: But I don't know he was like, yeah, I think

437
00:21:26,119 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 4: he was afraid.

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Speaker 1: I think it was more that he was just like,

439
00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:31,240
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do that, but that's.

440
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:33,200
Speaker 4: Hilarious, Like it's fun to imagine.

441
00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:34,480
Speaker 6: Him being like one of the men in the room

442
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 6: with Natalie Portman, like all the men who are truly

443
00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 6: afraid of her and afraid of her like you know

444
00:21:39,000 --> 00:21:40,400
Speaker 6: how emotional she is and.

445
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:43,200
Speaker 4: How frightening her, like I don't know.

446
00:21:43,320 --> 00:21:47,160
Speaker 6: Just on predictability is is very ironic.

447
00:21:47,400 --> 00:21:49,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, I love that when she says to the interview,

448
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 1: are you afraid I'm gonna cry?

449
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:53,960
Speaker 3: I wonder. One of the framing devices of this movie

450
00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:57,160
Speaker 3: is that it does the classic thing where you start

451
00:21:57,200 --> 00:22:00,200
Speaker 3: with an interview with a journalist and then there are flashbacks,

452
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,920
Speaker 3: which you know is sort of a cliche at this point,

453
00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:05,119
Speaker 3: What did you think of that as a framing device

454
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:09,000
Speaker 3: and how did you process that as literally a journalist

455
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,760
Speaker 3: yourself who profiles famous people.

456
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 6: As a framing device, it feels like the most kind

457
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:17,639
Speaker 6: of conventional part of the movie, only because Billy Cruda

458
00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:21,399
Speaker 6: playing not a specific reporter, but like that story I

459
00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:23,600
Speaker 6: think did happen in some magazine.

460
00:22:23,760 --> 00:22:25,640
Speaker 4: It's like he's strangely just like.

461
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 6: An everyman writer in a way that feels like for

462
00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 6: me that is otherwise so specific, it feels extremely kind

463
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:34,960
Speaker 6: of casual. I guess my instinct is to be like, Okay,

464
00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:37,480
Speaker 6: well she says she doesn't smoke, Well, guess who gets

465
00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,080
Speaker 6: to decide what goes in the final story?

466
00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:41,520
Speaker 3: I know I was thinking of that too. I think

467
00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:43,800
Speaker 3: the implication is that there's some conversation that you would

468
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,800
Speaker 3: only agree to this with certain terms.

469
00:22:45,880 --> 00:22:49,000
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think the true stories that she called

470
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 1: him to collaborate on an article and a lot that

471
00:22:53,720 --> 00:22:57,960
Speaker 1: I think is not said in Jackie because of probably those.

472
00:22:57,840 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 4: Twenty pages that were cut.

473
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:04,639
Speaker 1: It may so that there are no introductions to people,

474
00:23:04,760 --> 00:23:09,240
Speaker 1: and that in itself is kind of hazy, making like

475
00:23:09,400 --> 00:23:12,119
Speaker 1: out of sorts, Like people just come in and out

476
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:14,479
Speaker 1: and you're like, wait, I think I know who that is,

477
00:23:14,560 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 1: but they don't even say their names sometimes.

478
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:18,080
Speaker 4: But again, I like that.

479
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:20,080
Speaker 6: I like how it feels like a memory in the

480
00:23:20,080 --> 00:23:22,320
Speaker 6: sense that he don't know exactly what someone said or

481
00:23:22,359 --> 00:23:25,200
Speaker 6: who they were, but that's like you remember being told

482
00:23:25,240 --> 00:23:29,280
Speaker 6: this thing and feeling like the rage or sadness about that.

483
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 6: I think that is to the movie's benefit, and maybe

484
00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:36,680
Speaker 6: that's why the reporter part of it feels like the

485
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 6: most prescriptive I guess, and how you're supposed to read

486
00:23:40,359 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 6: her and read the situation, which makes the weakest in

487
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:45,639
Speaker 6: my mind. But I do like that they have this

488
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,560
Speaker 6: not exactly warm relationship. It's a little bit testy sometimes

489
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 6: which I think does confirm a casual viewer's bias against

490
00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,320
Speaker 6: this woman who seems kind of machiavellian and like her

491
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,479
Speaker 6: either pursuit of power or like her narrative of it.

492
00:24:01,800 --> 00:24:04,680
Speaker 1: But you mentioned the cigarettes, and man, does she make

493
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:06,920
Speaker 1: every single one of those cigarettes look really good?

494
00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 3: Oh?

495
00:24:08,440 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 7: Like this is like, as I was questioning, I was like,

496
00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:14,400
Speaker 7: this might be like top five movies to smoke too.

497
00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: And I don't smoke, but like it's like she makes

498
00:24:17,280 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 1: them all look so good, and it's like because it

499
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,200
Speaker 1: is kind of her, it's her secret.

500
00:24:23,440 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 3: I mean, it does symbolize her smoking, and then saying,

501
00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 3: by the way I don't smoke is like, of course,

502
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:33,000
Speaker 3: ultimately like emblematic of her relationship to the truth and

503
00:24:33,200 --> 00:24:37,480
Speaker 3: to her own image making. It's interesting, Like I totally

504
00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,840
Speaker 3: agree that it is a conventional framing device, but then

505
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:43,840
Speaker 3: I think at its best, what it does is sort

506
00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,160
Speaker 3: of established that we can't really trust anything else we're

507
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 3: seeing because everything exists in this sort of like liminal

508
00:24:50,560 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 3: space between fact and memory.

509
00:24:53,760 --> 00:25:09,000
Speaker 8: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, I think that's definitely true.

510
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so I want to get into slightly more fun stuff, flyer,

511
00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:20,439
Speaker 3: did you have any other questions about the meat of

512
00:25:20,480 --> 00:25:20,920
Speaker 3: the movie.

513
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 1: Oh well, I guess I guess it's more of an observation,

514
00:25:24,800 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 1: but also just that it's wild to meet that Lee,

515
00:25:29,640 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 1: her sister, and then know Nassas her future husband, who

516
00:25:33,400 --> 00:25:36,280
Speaker 1: were there this entire time. They're in every one of

517
00:25:36,320 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: those rooms in real life or not in real life

518
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: in this movie at all.

519
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 4: They're not even characters in the movie.

520
00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 3: I know, there's so much stuff like that that just

521
00:25:44,119 --> 00:25:46,520
Speaker 3: is ignored now that we know kind of what happened.

522
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 3: And I really do think that just isn't what he's

523
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 3: interested in. Like I really think, you know, it's almost

524
00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:57,200
Speaker 3: like putting on a play like the Nicole Scherzinger's Sonsible

525
00:25:57,200 --> 00:25:59,360
Speaker 3: of Our Words, just her on stage barefoot, Like he's

526
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 3: just doing as a little as possible to just convey

527
00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 3: the general themes he wants to convey, Like there really

528
00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,680
Speaker 3: is very little interest in historical accuracy and everything. And

529
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:12,639
Speaker 3: I also I've always been interested in him as a

530
00:26:12,680 --> 00:26:16,439
Speaker 3: non American making a movie about such an iconic American

531
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:17,720
Speaker 3: moment in history.

532
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, it.

533
00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:20,800
Speaker 6: Kind of because I feel like the procession, do they

534
00:26:20,800 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 6: shoot that all like in Paris or something, or I

535
00:26:23,600 --> 00:26:25,280
Speaker 6: don't think it was shot in the US, which kind

536
00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,200
Speaker 6: of a rands is like Eyes White Shot, which feels

537
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 6: like such an iconic New York movie that's obviously shot

538
00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:31,520
Speaker 6: in London, And how you can get to like some

539
00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:32,800
Speaker 6: kind of almost.

540
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 4: A reactive truth about all these places.

541
00:26:35,000 --> 00:26:37,560
Speaker 6: When there could not be further from the reality of

542
00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 6: like DC or New York City a way that I

543
00:26:39,800 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 6: like that it feels like kind of hazy.

544
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:43,120
Speaker 4: And also a lot.

545
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 6: Of those shots are so tight and static, especially in

546
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,920
Speaker 6: the first act. It's only when you get into the

547
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 6: White House, it's like only her alone in the center

548
00:26:50,840 --> 00:26:53,439
Speaker 6: of reframe that is a lot wider and bigger, and

549
00:26:53,520 --> 00:26:55,679
Speaker 6: so yeah, I think George to your point, it's like

550
00:26:56,000 --> 00:26:59,080
Speaker 6: there's so much happening outside of this that he is

551
00:26:59,119 --> 00:27:01,679
Speaker 6: just notious about at all, which I think is like

552
00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:03,920
Speaker 6: the right choice. But we do have a sense of

553
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:06,000
Speaker 6: like there are other things, there are other people milling about,

554
00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:08,520
Speaker 6: like in the LBJ stuff, there's all this like kind

555
00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 6: of Bobby comes in with reporting back like they want

556
00:27:11,560 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 6: you out of here at this day, they want this change.

557
00:27:14,359 --> 00:27:17,720
Speaker 6: And again it really keeps the pressure on her because

558
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:19,159
Speaker 6: it makes her feel more alone because she really is

559
00:27:19,160 --> 00:27:19,680
Speaker 6: the only Cherecer.

560
00:27:19,800 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 4: What is probably why.

561
00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:24,399
Speaker 6: Honestly, I feel like Peter Sarsguard is just not a

562
00:27:24,560 --> 00:27:27,359
Speaker 6: very If he were like not in the movie so much,

563
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:29,960
Speaker 6: his complete failure would not bother.

564
00:27:29,880 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 4: Me so much. But yeah, because he is, I just

565
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 4: like I see it, notice that all the time.

566
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is gonna be my next question. I think

567
00:27:36,720 --> 00:27:39,520
Speaker 3: you mentioned this in both of the New York macpiecet

568
00:27:39,560 --> 00:27:42,080
Speaker 3: you wrote about the film that that is the weakest

569
00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 3: part of it. First of all, I agree, and I

570
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 3: think at first glance, one of the things that's weak

571
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:48,760
Speaker 3: about it, even before he opens his mouth, is just

572
00:27:48,800 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 3: like it's such weird casting. Physically, he looks nothing like Bobby.

573
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:57,040
Speaker 3: Bobby does have like a particular you know, face shape

574
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,880
Speaker 3: and vibe and even just hair. I mean, yeah, which

575
00:27:59,880 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 3: it's interesting. Actually the actor who plays JFK is very

576
00:28:03,280 --> 00:28:03,800
Speaker 3: well cast.

577
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,120
Speaker 1: Yes, basically want to lookalike contest.

578
00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:08,520
Speaker 6: Yeah, and I think we can suspend our disbelieve that,

579
00:28:08,520 --> 00:28:11,160
Speaker 6: like Natalie Porton is Jackie Kennedy when it's Jackie Kennedy,

580
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 6: but when you have an almost mirror image of JFK

581
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:18,000
Speaker 6: and he's in the movie a fair amount, not a lot,

582
00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 6: but a fair amount, and then you have Peter Sargo's

583
00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 6: Bobby Kennedy.

584
00:28:20,880 --> 00:28:24,280
Speaker 1: It's like, wait, huh, even in the procession Teddy Kennedy

585
00:28:24,560 --> 00:28:26,360
Speaker 1: is I don't know if you noticed it. Yeah, it's

586
00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: like they got clones for everyone else. So why is

587
00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:33,600
Speaker 1: he just wearing those teeth and that's it?

588
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,400
Speaker 4: And what even are those teeth? Yeah? And like the accent,

589
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:39,080
Speaker 4: I mean, the accent you know, really comes and goes.

590
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 4: But that's okay. I don't want to nitpick about accents.

591
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,160
Speaker 6: But in like the best version of this, what is

592
00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,680
Speaker 6: he supposed to like, you know, communicate here to us?

593
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 6: And it's not even really a sense of like, I

594
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 6: don't He's just he's so like, shoulders down, hunched over,

595
00:28:53,160 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 6: like so sad all the time in a way that

596
00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:58,840
Speaker 6: I'm like, Okay, well, Natalie Portman is acting her ass off,

597
00:28:59,440 --> 00:29:03,520
Speaker 6: and you can't just loom lurk around the back of

598
00:29:03,600 --> 00:29:06,400
Speaker 6: these scenes and act like that's a performer.

599
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,320
Speaker 3: I mean, I do think the most compelling argument for

600
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 3: it that I can think of, which you sort of

601
00:29:12,160 --> 00:29:14,120
Speaker 3: allude to one of the things you wrote about it,

602
00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,440
Speaker 3: is like that she symbolizes, you know, for lack of

603
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 3: a better term, like a female gendered kind of grief,

604
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,440
Speaker 3: and then he symbolizes a male gendered kind of grief.

605
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:27,239
Speaker 3: It's like, you know, she's emoting and she's acting and

606
00:29:27,280 --> 00:29:29,520
Speaker 3: she's like crying, and then he comes in is just

607
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 3: like either completely emotionless or like throwing things around and

608
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:38,120
Speaker 3: being and being racheful. And there's something just like inherently

609
00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:41,560
Speaker 3: unappealing about him as a screen presence in this particular movie.

610
00:29:41,600 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 3: I actually think he's a great actor and other things.

611
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,000
Speaker 6: Yes, no, I've never had a problem with him, but

612
00:29:45,040 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 6: what a shame about Bobby than Lake.

613
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 1: And I will nitpick the accent because nowly Portman's voice

614
00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:54,960
Speaker 1: work is like insane. She has three different voices for

615
00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: Jackie depending on where.

616
00:29:56,920 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 4: She is and who she's talking to. I loved it.

617
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:05,480
Speaker 1: I would rather someone try too hard at emulating a

618
00:30:05,680 --> 00:30:10,880
Speaker 1: famous voice then to undersell it. And what I'm really tablish.

619
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 1: It's really the only time he gives us any kind

620
00:30:14,920 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: of accent. I would have liked more of that, I

621
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,160
Speaker 1: will say, though I read that. I think Pablo Lorraine

622
00:30:20,240 --> 00:30:25,120
Speaker 1: said thirty percent of the movie is first takes, which

623
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,840
Speaker 1: really just shows you how incredible Nolly Portman is. And

624
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,160
Speaker 1: maybe Peter would have warmed up in a second or

625
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:31,720
Speaker 1: third day.

626
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:34,920
Speaker 6: I feel like, Lyra, I just learned so much about you,

627
00:30:35,000 --> 00:30:37,760
Speaker 6: like did you love Lady Gaga in House of Gucci?

628
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:41,960
Speaker 4: Like do you let an accent? Okay? And you know what?

629
00:30:42,000 --> 00:30:45,680
Speaker 1: Actually because of the accent, because I was like, I

630
00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 1: was so confused by it in the trailer and I

631
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,479
Speaker 1: asked my friend who is Italian, I was like, is

632
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: this offensive? Like it doesn't feel like it's coming from

633
00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,120
Speaker 1: an earnest place. It feels like it's coming from like

634
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 1: this I don't know, campy place.

635
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,800
Speaker 3: Well, well, I mean fits When that movie came out,

636
00:31:05,840 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 3: I had a period when I would do a perfect

637
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,640
Speaker 3: impression of Lady Gaga in that movie. But now it's

638
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 3: been too long and I literally cannot attempt it. It's

639
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,360
Speaker 3: a very specific, almost Russian tinge oh does what? It's

640
00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:21,680
Speaker 3: a very like. It really is something that only Stephanie

641
00:31:21,680 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: could have pulled off. And I would actually say, I

642
00:31:23,840 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 3: want to see Lady Gaga as Jackie when they remake

643
00:31:26,960 --> 00:31:31,360
Speaker 3: this incredible which public figure would Lady Gaga play? A

644
00:31:31,360 --> 00:31:37,200
Speaker 3: publo Lorraine made another movie about how women struggle. Sorry, Hillary,

645
00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 3: Hillary Hilary, I actually think Lady Gaga as Hillary the

646
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 3: night of the twenty sixteen election, which is at the

647
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 3: Javit Center. The balloons are all getting ready to be

648
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:49,040
Speaker 3: dropped and they have to pop them one by one,

649
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,160
Speaker 3: and then it's just Lady Gaga dressed as Joe Calderon

650
00:31:52,600 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 3: in a pantsuit.

651
00:31:53,760 --> 00:31:56,360
Speaker 1: Honestly, you should write that as a short and have

652
00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 1: John Early play Hillary Clinton.

653
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:04,440
Speaker 6: Oh no, I think that either Gaga is Hillary Clinton

654
00:32:04,600 --> 00:32:11,680
Speaker 6: or iliald could be inspired. Yeah, okay, so my favorite thing.

655
00:32:11,720 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 6: Actually have two favorite things about this movie that are

656
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,360
Speaker 6: not the movie. The first is that Natalie Portman before

657
00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 6: every take would just whisper to herself, I love beauty,

658
00:32:21,680 --> 00:32:25,240
Speaker 6: like in her soft voice, because Jackie was touched in as

659
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:29,320
Speaker 6: fat as. How do you say that word? Yeah, okay,

660
00:32:29,320 --> 00:32:30,880
Speaker 6: that's what I thought, But you know, we're in a

661
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 6: culture where people say, like, that's so aesthetic, and I don't.

662
00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:34,040
Speaker 4: That's not what I meant.

663
00:32:34,440 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 6: My second favorite thing is that in Rodan Pharaoh's book

664
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:38,800
Speaker 6: Catch and Kill.

665
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:40,400
Speaker 4: Do you know where I'm going with this? Yes?

666
00:32:40,480 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 3: I do. The writer there, go ahead, go ahead.

667
00:32:43,920 --> 00:32:46,719
Speaker 6: Hunter and Rodan Pharaoh's book Catching Kill, he talks about

668
00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,520
Speaker 6: no Oppenheim, who was this reminder of Jackie who at

669
00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,840
Speaker 6: the time was president of NBC News, and I'm the

670
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 6: those are kind of fuzzy, but basically his lion Stine

671
00:32:55,240 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 6: reporting Rodan Pharaohs was like going to run an NBC

672
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 6: and then Oppenheim kind of was like, you know, a

673
00:33:02,160 --> 00:33:04,800
Speaker 6: little bit, giving him notes, pushing back on some stuff,

674
00:33:04,840 --> 00:33:06,800
Speaker 6: like he was saying that the story wasn't ready yet,

675
00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:10,280
Speaker 6: and then Pharaoh Rodon Pharaoh took it to The New Yorker,

676
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:14,440
Speaker 6: of course, And it's like at every opportunity Ronan Farrell

677
00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 6: just like finds a moment to like quote someone else

678
00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 6: saying that Jackie was not a good movie. And I

679
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,240
Speaker 6: swear to go like a paragraph and maybe even a chapter,

680
00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 6: but there's like a page that ends with David Remnick

681
00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 6: saying that was not a good movie about It's like what,

682
00:33:32,880 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 6: it's so like him going out of his way to

683
00:33:35,240 --> 00:33:37,760
Speaker 6: be like and actually, I hate that guy's movie too.

684
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 4: It's so I listen, I get it.

685
00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: It's interesting because he wrote Mays Runner script, and he

686
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:48,560
Speaker 1: wrote the Allegiance script, this agent the Divergence.

687
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 3: That's what throws me off.

688
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 4: And then he wrote Jackie. It's like, what how did that?

689
00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:55,600
Speaker 6: I found the quote? And I have to read it.

690
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 6: This is Rononan Parao's book. He says, an NBC is

691
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 6: letting you walk away with all of this report. Rymnik

692
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,600
Speaker 6: ast who was this person at NBC Oppenheim Oppenheim. I

693
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:08,080
Speaker 6: confirmed he's a screenwriter. You say he wrote Jackie. I

694
00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 6: replied that. Rymnik said Gravely was a bad movie.

695
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,239
Speaker 3: It's interesting, I mean to connect Jackie to larger political

696
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:22,000
Speaker 3: stories like Ronan and Fairs reporting and the fact that

697
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,080
Speaker 3: this guy randomly worked at NBC News. I expected it,

698
00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 3: and actually one of the reasons I resisted it was

699
00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,799
Speaker 3: I expected it to be much more like propagandistic or something. Yeah,

700
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: Like I really because so much stuff and we run

701
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 3: into this lot. So much stuff about JFK is just

702
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,960
Speaker 3: so propagandistic because for that time, he was, you know,

703
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 3: in the same way that Obama symbolized hope when he

704
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 3: became president, JFK was going to be like in New Leaf,

705
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: and it was going to be this emblem of American

706
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 3: progressive politics. And he was gone too soon, and he

707
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:53,800
Speaker 3: was gonna I mean literally in JFK, the Oliver Stone movie,

708
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,359
Speaker 3: which we watched the other week. The argument that they're

709
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,440
Speaker 3: making is that He literally was so progressive that he

710
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 3: was going to withdraw from the Vietnam and that's why

711
00:35:00,760 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 3: the government conspired to kill him, because they were so

712
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,359
Speaker 3: afraid of how amazingly liberal and progressive he would be.

713
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 3: So I really thought that this would be just like

714
00:35:09,400 --> 00:35:12,759
Speaker 3: more of that, And especially knowing that I don't know

715
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 3: this guy that didn't want to publish a Weinstein report

716
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:16,680
Speaker 3: it wrote it, It's like I would expect it to

717
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 3: be so much more like can you believe that we

718
00:35:19,480 --> 00:35:22,239
Speaker 3: lost the one true hope we had for in the

719
00:35:22,280 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: twentieth century? So I got to say I have to

720
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 3: really separate the art from the artists in this one

721
00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 3: instance and say, regardless of what this guy did in

722
00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 3: the rest of his professional life, he absolutely ate with

723
00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:33,959
Speaker 3: this one.

724
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,759
Speaker 6: First of all, it's like Go was written by a man,

725
00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 6: and this goes written by a suit like an executive

726
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:39,920
Speaker 6: at a media company.

727
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 4: No, I'm expecting to be lectured too.

728
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 6: I'm expecting Aaron Sorkin walk into a room and read

729
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 6: me the monologue from the newsroom.

730
00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 4: And this could not be further from that.

731
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:51,440
Speaker 3: And by the way, a lot of Publo Raine's previous films,

732
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 3: which I haven't seen in like decades, but are much

733
00:35:54,480 --> 00:35:58,040
Speaker 3: more explicitly political. And I mean, I'm trying to think

734
00:35:58,120 --> 00:36:01,279
Speaker 3: there was that guy. No, yeah, that was that Gala

735
00:36:01,280 --> 00:36:03,200
Speaker 3: Garcia Bernald. Of course when I google it, I get

736
00:36:03,239 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 3: the Megan Trainer song. I think he can be more political.

737
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: He can be more political when he wants. And the

738
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: other thing is, there's something about this trilogy of movies

739
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 3: that just screams gay guy to me and is not.

740
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:16,440
Speaker 3: He's a straight man that made three movies in a

741
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:20,560
Speaker 3: row about basically divas I did.

742
00:36:20,600 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 4: Also, I assumed he wooz gay.

743
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 6: Whenever a man has any ounce of emotional intelligence or sensitivity,

744
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:26,960
Speaker 6: I will assume that.

745
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:30,399
Speaker 3: Yeah. No, he is divorced from a woman named Antonia, and.

746
00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 4: I want her movie. I want Antonio.

747
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 3: Maybe that should be godas that should.

748
00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:41,440
Speaker 1: It seems like in this instance the director did a

749
00:36:41,840 --> 00:36:46,360
Speaker 1: lot of the forming of this movie, as opposed to

750
00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:50,880
Speaker 1: Oh yes, Oppenheim wrote the script for a different medium.

751
00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:53,920
Speaker 1: It got moved and moved and moved, and then it

752
00:36:53,960 --> 00:36:56,759
Speaker 1: got you know, I can't do the math. It's less

753
00:36:56,800 --> 00:36:59,920
Speaker 1: than twenty percent, but more than fifteen percent of this

754
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,759
Speaker 1: griped getting cut before they shoot. It just seems like

755
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 1: it was saved by Poplo Lorraine.

756
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:09,520
Speaker 3: I'm assuming I was actually saved by Natalie Portman.

757
00:37:09,760 --> 00:37:13,520
Speaker 4: That's as many things are, truly.

758
00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:17,719
Speaker 1: I love your comparison of Jackie to Chris Jenner when

759
00:37:17,760 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 1: you you know, because honestly, I want a Chris Jenner movie.

760
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:23,040
Speaker 3: Now that's a good gaga. Sorry, I'm running this bit.

761
00:37:23,080 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 3: That would be a great role.

762
00:37:24,040 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 4: For gotting about.

763
00:37:25,120 --> 00:37:28,720
Speaker 1: I love when Benito Skinner plays Chris Jenner as the devil,

764
00:37:29,200 --> 00:37:32,320
Speaker 1: you know, and it's like, yeah.

765
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,600
Speaker 9: Also, she's often right, like you know, It's like if

766
00:37:36,600 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 9: the way that we look at complicated male figures, I

767
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 9: think that she's to me.

768
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,520
Speaker 1: I find a very complicated figure. And a lot of

769
00:37:46,520 --> 00:37:50,080
Speaker 1: this is stemming from watching the O. J. Simpson American

770
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:53,120
Speaker 1: Crime Story and some of Blair's portrayal of Chris Jenner.

771
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:55,959
Speaker 1: Oh my god, it like changed the way I saw

772
00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: her for the rest of my life. Like, initially, kind

773
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,080
Speaker 1: I've had no opinion, but I was just like, that's

774
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 1: really shitty that you exploited your children. But then in

775
00:38:06,280 --> 00:38:09,600
Speaker 1: the American Crime Story, it was like the first time

776
00:38:09,640 --> 00:38:15,240
Speaker 1: I realized that her best friend was murdered, and then

777
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,800
Speaker 1: all of their best friends kind of shrugged their shoulders

778
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 1: about it, and it's like similar to what we've been

779
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:23,160
Speaker 1: talking about with Jackie when they turn off the TV

780
00:38:23,320 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: after seeing Oswald get shot and they all have so

781
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:28,360
Speaker 1: many other things on their mind. Yeah, and this is

782
00:38:28,400 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: a moment where we're supposed to be having the families wake,

783
00:38:31,800 --> 00:38:32,960
Speaker 1: but she's alone in it.

784
00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:33,480
Speaker 4: Yeah.

785
00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:36,279
Speaker 3: I mean the scene where they like agree not to

786
00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,640
Speaker 3: tell her that Oswald has been shot is maybe, of

787
00:38:38,800 --> 00:38:41,359
Speaker 3: all the things that the various men do, probably the

788
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:45,000
Speaker 3: most sexist. Like it's literally like she is a woman,

789
00:38:45,080 --> 00:38:47,000
Speaker 3: she can't handle the truth.

790
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: I do have to say, that is not how it happened.

791
00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:52,879
Speaker 1: She and Bobby were together in the autopsy room when

792
00:38:53,000 --> 00:38:55,319
Speaker 1: Oswald was shot. They found out together at the same

793
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:59,279
Speaker 1: time afterwards. So that thing of Bobby lying to her

794
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:02,320
Speaker 1: and doing that's also just a weird choice, I guess,

795
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: But it gives her the ability to yell at him

796
00:39:05,360 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: finally in that mot like she gets a great moment

797
00:39:08,080 --> 00:39:10,440
Speaker 1: and it's like, yeah, well, of.

798
00:39:10,280 --> 00:39:11,959
Speaker 6: That scene, I mean, it's funny you bring up Christian

799
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,000
Speaker 6: her now, because the point of that scene to me

800
00:39:14,280 --> 00:39:16,640
Speaker 6: is that she can see how she's been manipulated by

801
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 6: both sides.

802
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,680
Speaker 4: It's not just that, like, you know.

803
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,640
Speaker 6: The government is evil, the LBJ people are evil, And

804
00:39:22,680 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 6: it's not that the Kennedy's are great. It's that she

805
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 6: is truly alone and in the middle and has there's

806
00:39:28,200 --> 00:39:29,800
Speaker 6: no like rubric.

807
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 4: To handle this.

808
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:32,520
Speaker 6: And I feel like maybe she says, you know, a

809
00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:36,000
Speaker 6: few times, like a president has just died, like and

810
00:39:36,040 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 6: everyone's acting like we need to push her aside and

811
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,240
Speaker 6: move along, and she continues.

812
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:43,600
Speaker 4: To say, there's nothing. I don't know what to do.

813
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 6: I'm just making up as they go along, And I

814
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:48,000
Speaker 6: like that is a piece of that doesn't feel so

815
00:39:48,239 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 6: Christianer to me, where she at least like in that

816
00:39:50,640 --> 00:39:53,000
Speaker 6: one timeline, we really see her making it up, just

817
00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,000
Speaker 6: as we saw the kind of the real sense of

818
00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:58,080
Speaker 6: like insecurity and anxiety as she's doing the White House

819
00:39:58,160 --> 00:40:01,759
Speaker 6: broadcast in like, Okay, well, everyone thinks I've wasted their money,

820
00:40:01,800 --> 00:40:04,640
Speaker 6: everyone thinks I'm a dumb debutante, everyone thinks that we

821
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:06,959
Speaker 6: are here for all the wrong reasons. But I want

822
00:40:07,000 --> 00:40:11,400
Speaker 6: to show the value in presenting something and like telling it,

823
00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,399
Speaker 6: making this into like a narrative, making us into a story,

824
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:15,879
Speaker 6: and giving people something to be proud of, which is yeah,

825
00:40:15,920 --> 00:40:18,840
Speaker 6: a little bit more astute, like management narrative e anything

826
00:40:18,920 --> 00:40:22,280
Speaker 6: is pretty good. But but yeah, I oh my gosh,

827
00:40:22,440 --> 00:40:24,480
Speaker 6: I'm so happy. I love talking about this movie. I'm

828
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 6: happy when people love it. I like, I feel like

829
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 6: a proud mama Sita.

830
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 9: Yeah.

831
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,200
Speaker 1: I mean, well, the like real thought about christian Or

832
00:40:31,200 --> 00:40:33,239
Speaker 1: that I don't know why I left it off, was

833
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:36,160
Speaker 1: that just in that moment, I feel like, if you

834
00:40:36,200 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 1: want to look at her with the kindest possible eyes,

835
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 1: that's the moment where she realized that if you're a woman,

836
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 1: if you don't have money and power, you have nothing.

837
00:40:47,120 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 4: They can just kill you and forget about.

838
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: You, like you know, like it doesn't matter what your

839
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 1: relationship was with them beforehand.

840
00:40:53,640 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 4: And I feel like we're doing a christian Or movie.

841
00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: That's when she decides to priority ties.

842
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:14,480
Speaker 5: Money for her daughters.

843
00:41:18,920 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 3: Okay, so Lyra, your Pablo Irraine movie is Chris Jenner

844
00:41:22,560 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 3: Hunters is of course Hillary Clinton her favorite politician and mine,

845
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 3: I would say, I mean, this is such an obvious one,

846
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:32,439
Speaker 3: but and this would have to be in twenty years.

847
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,680
Speaker 3: But I'm like, I want a Courtney Love, like an

848
00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,839
Speaker 3: actual Courtney Love sort of Pablo Lorraine style biopic that's

849
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 3: like about a specific part of her life. Maybe it's

850
00:41:41,160 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 3: right after she has Francis Bean, maybe it's right after

851
00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: Kurt Cobain died, and I wanted to actually grapple with

852
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:50,600
Speaker 3: her incredible complexity as one of the great artists of

853
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:51,000
Speaker 3: our time.

854
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 1: But we can't get Noah Oppenheim to write it because

855
00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:56,880
Speaker 1: he loves wine seeing so much. Yeah, and Courtney Love

856
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:58,880
Speaker 1: made the Weinstein joke on the Red Carpet.

857
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,480
Speaker 6: I do think that Jackie reminds me a lot of

858
00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 6: Last Days, the Gus Fan Sant movie about Kurt Cobain.

859
00:42:05,560 --> 00:42:09,840
Speaker 6: Like similarly, it feels not telored to any specific cultural

860
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 6: conversation in more of a memory and a tone more

861
00:42:15,560 --> 00:42:18,800
Speaker 6: than like a specific I don't know thesis in the

862
00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 6: way that I think is really interesting.

863
00:42:20,960 --> 00:42:23,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, so much of the Kennedy narrative is created in

864
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,840
Speaker 3: the media, and you have these decontextualized images that you

865
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 3: think of when you think of the Kennedy's, whether it's

866
00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,360
Speaker 3: the debate with Nixon, whether it's the assassination, whatever, And

867
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:34,440
Speaker 3: it almost replicates that feeling of being bombarded with images

868
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,120
Speaker 3: by not following a coherent you know, A to B

869
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:40,840
Speaker 3: two C narrative and just having this dreamscape of scenes

870
00:42:40,880 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 3: and people going in and out of rooms and not

871
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,880
Speaker 3: really knowing if that this is something you imagined or

872
00:42:45,920 --> 00:42:48,080
Speaker 3: if it actually happened. And I actually think the quote

873
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:51,439
Speaker 3: unquote factual inaccuracy is almost add to that feeling, because

874
00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,640
Speaker 3: it's kind of like someone's imagination of what could have

875
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: happened at that time.

876
00:42:56,440 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: Well, because honestly, the only other one only other one

877
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 1: is that she really wanted to leave the White House

878
00:43:03,160 --> 00:43:05,480
Speaker 1: as soon as possible, but she felt she had nowhere

879
00:43:05,480 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: to go. It wasn't like they pushed her out. They

880
00:43:08,560 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 1: wanted her to stay longer, but she didn't want to

881
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,960
Speaker 1: be there anymore. But she had her kids and she

882
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:15,799
Speaker 1: felt like she had nowhere to go with them, and

883
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 1: her father in law said, obviously, move in with us.

884
00:43:19,800 --> 00:43:20,480
Speaker 4: Come live with that.

885
00:43:20,560 --> 00:43:23,120
Speaker 1: She'd spent a lot of time like at you know,

886
00:43:23,160 --> 00:43:26,719
Speaker 1: at the family home anyways, and her response was, will

887
00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 1: mom move out? And I feel like that's something that

888
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:32,759
Speaker 1: could have been in there and shows how alone she was.

889
00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,440
Speaker 1: She did not have even a relationship with her mother

890
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: where she wanted to be with her. After her husband died,

891
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:42,920
Speaker 1: she was like, I'll go if she leaves jokingly, but

892
00:43:43,360 --> 00:43:45,239
Speaker 1: that's what their relationship was. No.

893
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 6: I love that because there is very few moments where

894
00:43:47,760 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 6: she says a very mean, like cruel thing to someone,

895
00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,000
Speaker 6: usually to LBJ or Lady Bird Johnson.

896
00:43:54,840 --> 00:43:56,160
Speaker 4: And it's just kind of funny.

897
00:43:56,360 --> 00:43:58,239
Speaker 6: I want to laugh because what did she say to

898
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 6: LBJ oh when they're doing the funeral procession, like taking

899
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,320
Speaker 6: the body to the rotunda, she says, what a terrible

900
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 6: way to start a presidency and keeps walking, and it's.

901
00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 4: Like those little moments of just icy bitchiness. I love.

902
00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 6: Yeah, I love because why would you not do that?

903
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:18,600
Speaker 6: That's how it feels. She's furious, she.

904
00:44:18,680 --> 00:44:20,920
Speaker 3: Is, and this is also she knows she can get

905
00:44:20,920 --> 00:44:22,640
Speaker 3: away with a little bit of it, like she knows

906
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:24,799
Speaker 3: people are giving her some slack because she, you know,

907
00:44:24,880 --> 00:44:27,319
Speaker 3: obviously just lost her husband. And also I think the

908
00:44:27,360 --> 00:44:30,840
Speaker 3: fact that she realizes she's not getting any respect means

909
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:32,239
Speaker 3: that she's like, Okay, well, if you're not going to

910
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:34,840
Speaker 3: respect me, then I can say something bitchy because you

911
00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 3: sort of are not taking me seriously. Talking about how

912
00:44:37,840 --> 00:44:40,160
Speaker 3: she didn't have anyone, of course, made me realize there's

913
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 3: one character we have not touched on at all her

914
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:47,600
Speaker 3: iconic galpal Greta Gerwig, who is like meant to be

915
00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 3: her confidant, but it is such a sort of nothing

916
00:44:50,600 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 3: character at the end of the day.

917
00:44:51,920 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 6: Well, I wonder if some of her stuff got cut,

918
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 6: because it does seem like such a small role. But

919
00:44:56,840 --> 00:44:59,000
Speaker 6: I forget that Greta Girg is in this movie. Every

920
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:01,759
Speaker 6: time I know and whenever I see her, I'm like,

921
00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:03,560
Speaker 6: oh my gosh, look at you're here.

922
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:05,920
Speaker 4: Look at you. Oh my goodness, that's my old friend.

923
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:10,399
Speaker 6: But I do think that she is so good as

924
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:14,080
Speaker 6: the kind of straight face like I'm I'm patting on

925
00:45:14,080 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 6: your shoulders.

926
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:15,719
Speaker 4: I'm telling you you're doing a really good.

927
00:45:15,680 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 6: Job, almost like the anti Amy the Handler, except actually

928
00:45:21,200 --> 00:45:23,479
Speaker 6: willbooy your confidence in a very sweet way.

929
00:45:23,800 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, I kept I think you're totally right. I had

930
00:45:26,640 --> 00:45:30,040
Speaker 3: the feeling that surely something was cut because I kept

931
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:34,920
Speaker 3: waiting for something to turn, either for Greta Gerwig to

932
00:45:35,880 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 3: do something incredibly supportive and prove that Jackie at least

933
00:45:39,200 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 3: had this one person on her side, or more likely,

934
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,680
Speaker 3: I thought that like what it was building to was

935
00:45:44,719 --> 00:45:47,040
Speaker 3: in fact a betrayal from her. I thought that the

936
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 3: sort of lesson was going to be that even this

937
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:51,920
Speaker 3: one person that she trusted at the end of the

938
00:45:52,000 --> 00:45:53,560
Speaker 3: day sold her out, Like I thought she was going

939
00:45:53,600 --> 00:45:55,600
Speaker 3: to go to the media with something or it turns

940
00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,400
Speaker 3: out that her and Bobby were keeping something from Jackie,

941
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:00,400
Speaker 3: and it was sort of just like nothing. She was

942
00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,160
Speaker 3: just kind of set dressing.

943
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:02,680
Speaker 7: You know.

944
00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:04,920
Speaker 3: It's always nice to see Greta Girwig, but I was like,

945
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:06,520
Speaker 3: where is this going?

946
00:46:06,880 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 6: Yeah, it feels like one little piece is missing, because

947
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:10,239
Speaker 6: I feel like the most we get is them kind

948
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 6: of giggling together, like at the end when she's like

949
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,279
Speaker 6: getting her dressed with a funeral and it's sweet, but

950
00:46:16,400 --> 00:46:20,200
Speaker 6: also not enough of a moment really for an actor

951
00:46:20,239 --> 00:46:21,240
Speaker 6: as good as Greta Gerwig.

952
00:46:21,280 --> 00:46:21,640
Speaker 4: Honestly.

953
00:46:21,880 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, Yeah, in real life they were roommates and boarding

954
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 1: school and they're best friends until they died. Surely there's

955
00:46:30,800 --> 00:46:33,560
Speaker 1: more there than the pat on the shoulder.

956
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:36,000
Speaker 4: My brain is so broken. I was like, oh my god,

957
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:36,880
Speaker 4: they were roommates.

958
00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:40,439
Speaker 7: Well, what happens to me in this movie is when

959
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:45,200
Speaker 7: they're driving away, it's Bobby and Jackie with the casket

960
00:46:45,480 --> 00:46:48,279
Speaker 7: and they hit a bump and then Bobby opens the

961
00:46:48,320 --> 00:46:49,160
Speaker 7: window to the driver.

962
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: And he goes slow down and then in my head,

963
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:55,760
Speaker 1: I just hear grab the Wall. That song is stuck

964
00:46:55,800 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 1: in my gas pedal is stuck in my head for

965
00:46:58,320 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 1: the next That's crazy.

966
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,120
Speaker 3: This is like how Kirsten Gillibrand was roommates with Connie Britton. Wow,

967
00:47:04,160 --> 00:47:07,320
Speaker 3: And when Lady Gaga plays Kirsten Gillibrand in the pubblo

968
00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:10,160
Speaker 3: A movie, we can have Katy Perry play Connie Britton.

969
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,279
Speaker 4: She's busy and she has to go to space again.

970
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 4: She's going through doors.

971
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:18,719
Speaker 6: No, I hope, okay, space is like we don't want

972
00:47:18,760 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 6: her put her down.

973
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:22,040
Speaker 3: You know who went to space right after this movie,

974
00:47:22,120 --> 00:47:24,319
Speaker 3: Natalie Portman because one of the movies.

975
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 4: Don't Get Me started bebe Were. She didn't were the diaper.

976
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 7: Me.

977
00:47:30,560 --> 00:47:32,399
Speaker 6: In a serious way, she should have won the diaper

978
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 6: in that movie. And it's not like not in a

979
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:35,799
Speaker 6: like sensational way.

980
00:47:35,840 --> 00:47:39,560
Speaker 4: That is like the real trauma of the real story.

981
00:47:39,800 --> 00:47:40,320
Speaker 5: Yeah.

982
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:44,000
Speaker 1: I so, I was a director's assistant and my job

983
00:47:44,120 --> 00:47:47,960
Speaker 1: was reading scripts. And I read that script and I

984
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:50,799
Speaker 1: loved it. And in the original script she was way

985
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,200
Speaker 1: more true to the character.

986
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,160
Speaker 4: They made her like sexy and cool. Yeah.

987
00:47:55,320 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 6: I do kind of like the moments in Jackie where

988
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,920
Speaker 6: you get the flashes of Jackie being very sexy, like

989
00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:02,319
Speaker 6: not sexually like very cool and like there's a scene

990
00:48:02,320 --> 00:48:04,359
Speaker 6: where she's on the Air Force one in the very

991
00:48:04,440 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 6: very beginning and they're about to go out, and she says,

992
00:48:07,800 --> 00:48:10,960
Speaker 6: I love crowds, and it's so I'm like, oh my.

993
00:48:10,920 --> 00:48:14,200
Speaker 4: God, Diva.

994
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,480
Speaker 1: She goes, are those birds like hearing the noise of

995
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,600
Speaker 1: the crowd like call it? And I yeah, I feel

996
00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:23,440
Speaker 1: like it's also so nice because you see that, like

997
00:48:23,880 --> 00:48:26,960
Speaker 1: she and jack they had a relationship and it was

998
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:31,440
Speaker 1: not a like perfect lovey dovey romantic relationship, but they

999
00:48:31,480 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 1: were partners.

1000
00:48:32,320 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 4: But you can see like they understood each other. Yes,

1001
00:48:34,880 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 4: were they connected on like.

1002
00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:40,920
Speaker 6: Very specific things like image making, like perception all that stuff.

1003
00:48:41,000 --> 00:48:42,640
Speaker 6: And that's really because that's it's kind of like one

1004
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:44,520
Speaker 6: of the few moments we get of their relationship. It

1005
00:48:44,560 --> 00:48:46,840
Speaker 6: really is all totally outwrapple. I just think is honestly

1006
00:48:46,880 --> 00:48:49,960
Speaker 6: like to the movie's credit, But yeah, Hunter, thank you

1007
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 6: so much, thank you so much for joining us. We

1008
00:48:52,600 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 6: truly could not have asked for a better guest for

1009
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:54,720
Speaker 6: this film.

1010
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:59,160
Speaker 3: Any final thoughts on Jackie or on the Kennedys and

1011
00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 3: fill more broad well.

1012
00:49:00,600 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 6: I will say when I sent you that DM, I

1013
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,240
Speaker 6: was like, I hope they do an episode about Jackie

1014
00:49:06,239 --> 00:49:07,759
Speaker 6: and I never thought I would be able to talk

1015
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:09,400
Speaker 6: about it, so I thrilled.

1016
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 3: Maybe you should be the next Pubble ra Tubble are

1017
00:49:12,320 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 3: my opinion.

1018
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:16,200
Speaker 4: That's it for this week's episode.

1019
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:19,240
Speaker 3: Next week, we're talking about the Jackie Oh of pop music,

1020
00:49:19,400 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 3: Taylor Swift and her short lived relationship with RFK junior

1021
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:24,520
Speaker 3: son Connor Kennedy.

1022
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:29,080
Speaker 1: So subscribe and follow United States of Kennedy for all

1023
00:49:29,080 --> 00:49:30,520
Speaker 1: Things Kennedy every week