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Speaker 1: Pushkin. So, as I explained last episode, we've created this experiment.

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Speaker 1: My producer Lydia Jean Kott has partnered up with one

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Speaker 1: of the world's smartest sports gamblers, Rufus Peabody is his name.

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Speaker 1: Over the past fifteen years, Rufus has made many millions

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Speaker 1: of dollars betting on sports. He's had the occasional losing week,

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Speaker 1: but never a losing month, much less a losing year.

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Speaker 1: Unlike all but a handful of sports gamblers, Rufus Peabody

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Speaker 1: has always had an edge. The deal was this, Rufus

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Speaker 1: would turn LJ into one of his mules. He'd send

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Speaker 1: her money and the bets he'd like to make, and

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Speaker 1: she'd make them on sports that she knows nothing about,

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Speaker 1: like golf. She just opened as many a counts with

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Speaker 1: sports gambling companies as she could and get as much

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Speaker 1: money down as they take. I didn't have the first

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Speaker 1: clue how this would work out. I started to think

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Speaker 1: it wouldn't work out at all, especially after DraftKings froze

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Speaker 1: Lj's account after just two bets, and fan Duel came

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Speaker 1: in right after and refused to accept anything but small bets.

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Speaker 1: But there are right now dozens of these gambling apps,

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Speaker 1: and three weeks into her new career as a pro gambler,

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Speaker 1: lj's life is obviously still kind of nuts, so nuts

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Speaker 1: that she's no longer keeping me up to date on it,

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Speaker 1: but I can see it on my phone. There's this

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Speaker 1: text thread that's the length of an epic poem. My

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Speaker 1: producer has this whole other life after dark. I wake

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Speaker 1: up in the morning and I find I have two

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Speaker 1: hundred and seventy four new messages on Telegram, and I

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Speaker 1: can't figure out. I mean, it's oh, it's just you

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Speaker 1: and Rufus going back and forth. Well, what's going on?

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Speaker 2: Okay? So I mean I placed a bunch of bets

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Speaker 2: this weekend?

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Speaker 1: How many bets?

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Speaker 2: So many bets?

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Speaker 1: Actually, how many bets?

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Speaker 2: Okay, total, I've total.

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Speaker 3: I've placed one hundred and ten thousand dollars since we started,

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Speaker 3: which is pretty good.

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Speaker 2: It's my salary.

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Speaker 1: She's bet the equivalent of her annual salary. The sports

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Speaker 1: bookies that will still take her big bets are the

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Speaker 1: ones she's lost money to. These places seem to warn

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Speaker 1: her business more than ever.

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Speaker 3: Like every five seconds I get a bonus and they're

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Speaker 3: always like, open your app now to get this, and

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Speaker 3: I'm like, no.

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Speaker 1: She's somehow gotten her debit card tied to her gambling accounts.

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Speaker 1: She's been moving so much money around that her own

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Speaker 1: bank is trying to shut her down.

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Speaker 3: I've basically locked my debit card, which I didn't know

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Speaker 3: is a thing. So then when I tried to buy

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Speaker 3: a coffee, it got declined, which has never happened to me.

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Speaker 1: How did you pay for your coffee?

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Speaker 2: The barista covered me.

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Speaker 3: Really yeah, he was like, I'm sorry, this seems like

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Speaker 3: a bad situation for you.

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Speaker 1: Not a bad situation because LJ is now that most

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Speaker 1: coveted of things a sports betting VIP. A lady named

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Speaker 1: Courtney at MGM texted her with the news, which is odd.

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Speaker 1: Lj's only made like forty nine thousand dollars worth of

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Speaker 1: bets at bet MGM and she's only lost like eight

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Speaker 1: grand to them. But they've assigned her a personal concierge

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Speaker 1: and invited her to see Charlie XCX at Madison Square

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Speaker 1: Garden just handed her to tickets worth thousands of dollars.

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Speaker 1: I actually have no idea who Charlie XCX is. To me,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like a new model of Mountain Bike. But

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Speaker 1: Lj's thrilled and also worried. What if these people discover

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Speaker 1: who she really is? What if they realize she's their

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Speaker 1: worst nightmare.

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Speaker 4: It'll be just like going to any hosted VIP and

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Speaker 4: then at Medicine's Gay God.

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Speaker 2: Okay, like I've never done that.

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Speaker 1: That's the altar voice if someone we're calling Beckett like

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Speaker 1: Rufus Peabody, Beckett's a player with an edge. Unlike Rufus,

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Speaker 1: Beckett has on several occasions managed to become a VIP.

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Speaker 5: You know.

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Speaker 4: Lvy boxes and suites, and you'll be told where to go,

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Speaker 4: and you'll go up onto a special floor and ushered

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Speaker 4: into a large room which has been reserved by that

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Speaker 4: MGM for all of their corporate hospitality stuff, whether it

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Speaker 4: be a sports event for a music event. There will

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Speaker 4: be a few other people in the VIP provent there,

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Speaker 4: and there will be a few other people that work

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Speaker 4: for that MGM, and there will be free food and

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Speaker 4: free booze and a great view of the band.

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Speaker 1: Beckett gives LJ a goal fake being a degenerate gambler

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Speaker 1: so well that they raise her betting limits from like

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Speaker 1: five to fifty thousand dollars a pop, but La is

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Speaker 1: still fixated on how to act like a VIP.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, Like I guess, should I pretend to

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Speaker 3: be someone other than myself? No? I feel like I

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Speaker 3: could just be myself a podcast producer in New York

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Speaker 3: who is just a little wealthier than I actually am

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Speaker 3: in real life, and enjoys batting a little more than

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Speaker 3: I do in real life.

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Speaker 5: And we love golf.

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Speaker 2: We love golf.

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Speaker 1: That's Ariela Markowitz, another producer on our show, who's flying

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Speaker 1: in from California to be lj's plus one at Charlie XCX,

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Speaker 1: and who is so into it.

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Speaker 5: How sophisticated should our golf vocabulary be? I feel like

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Speaker 5: I should start reading more.

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Speaker 4: I mean, you know, if you try and become convustant

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Speaker 4: in it, I think that just leads to all risks,

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Speaker 4: because if then something you know doesn't make sense, and

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Speaker 4: then you're drawn into a deeper conversation about stuff that

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Speaker 4: you you know you don't feel comfortable talking about. I

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Speaker 4: just I just wanted.

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Speaker 2: Okay, well peppered in if we need to.

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Speaker 4: And we got some light peppering.

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Speaker 2: Do you have any backstories for us? It's toll like,

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Speaker 2: how we're wealthy.

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Speaker 4: I would, I would keep it vague, but I would,

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Speaker 4: you know, family wealth or you know, in saving fears,

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Speaker 4: something like that. Maybe you'd been investing for a while

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Speaker 4: and you got bought it, so you pulled your money

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Speaker 4: out of the stock bucket and decided to gammel with

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Speaker 4: it instead.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that seems like gonna be a really hard thing

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Speaker 3: for me to pull off.

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Speaker 2: Thing casually for me, I'm.

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Speaker 6: Like a dead relative. They gave me money, I'm stupid,

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Speaker 6: got a honor. May their memory be a blessing?

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Speaker 1: Like is that what you do?

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Speaker 2: You go and say stuff like that, like have you

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Speaker 2: done that?

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Speaker 4: Yeah? I mean I've I've set all kinds of things

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Speaker 4: to all kinds of people. I don't want to give

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Speaker 4: away too much.

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Speaker 1: He really doesn't. He doesn't want us to use his

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Speaker 1: real name or his real voice, and he's certainly not

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Speaker 1: going to tell us all his secrets. But even he's interested.

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Speaker 1: He's never seen anyone with no interest in sports or

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Speaker 1: gambling try to fake being a degenerate sports gambler.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna I might try just the no Lie route.

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Speaker 3: Bee.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I totally improve. I think that's the way it did.

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Speaker 4: Beckett approved slowly if that could approved?

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Speaker 1: Beckett approved, and I did too. I'm Michael Lewis, and

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Speaker 1: this is against the rules. Can I just pause for

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Speaker 1: a moment to ponder this strange situation? Just how weird?

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Speaker 1: This new sports gambling market now is the biggest sports books,

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Speaker 1: Fan Duels and DraftKings, the two companies that basically control

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Speaker 1: this market, have gotten so expert at spotting smart gamblers

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Speaker 1: and kicking them out that they've already mostly kicked out LJ,

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Speaker 1: which of course is not exactly a human tragedy. But

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Speaker 1: you might think that the sports gambling companies could also

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Speaker 1: use their shrewd algorithms to identify people with gambling problems

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Speaker 1: and kicked them out too. As it turns out, not

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Speaker 1: so much.

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Speaker 7: My name is Jeff. I'm from New Jersey.

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Speaker 1: What else? Jeff Gordon is one of those people who

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Speaker 1: no one bothered to identify, As he says, he grew

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Speaker 1: up in New Jersey. He didn't play sports, but he

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Speaker 1: was a sports fan as a kid. He prided himself

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Speaker 1: on his sports knowledge, and in early twenty sixteen, he

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Speaker 1: saw a billboard ad for a Draft Kings fantasy basketball tournament.

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Speaker 1: He was twenty four years old. He paid thirty bucks

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Speaker 1: to enter the tournament, and to his delight, he finished

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Speaker 1: second overall out of fifty thousand players. This further convinced

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Speaker 1: him that he could predict whatever would happen on a

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Speaker 1: basketball court better than other fans.

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Speaker 7: It was one hundred thousand dollars, which to me, it

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Speaker 7: was a lot of money for a thirty dollars bet.

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Speaker 1: It is a lot of money for a thirty dollars

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Speaker 1: to everybody, it's a lot of money for a thirty

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Speaker 1: dollars bet. I mean, that's incredible.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, it kind of I have a concept of what

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Speaker 7: money is, but at the time it was like water.

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Speaker 7: You can go through that very quickly. I think I was.

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Speaker 7: I think I bought myself a car and the rest

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Speaker 7: of the money was gambled away with it, I want

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Speaker 7: to say a couple months, not.

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Speaker 1: Even gambled away in fantasy leagues.

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Speaker 7: In fantasy leagues and the daily fantasy tournaments in sports betting.

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Speaker 1: When was the first time you thought I have a problem.

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Speaker 7: When I was watching the six figures turn to five figures,

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Speaker 7: to four to three and it hit about four figures

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Speaker 7: in my bank account, I said, this is bad.

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Speaker 1: But Jeff didn't stop or even really slow down, just

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Speaker 1: the reverse. Because the year after his big win, New

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Speaker 1: Jersey legalized mobile sports gambling. By twenty nineteen, everyone in

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Speaker 1: New Jersey now had a casino in their pockets, and

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Speaker 1: Jeff had zero ability to ignore it.

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Speaker 7: When you hear that these that you can bet on

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Speaker 7: in game parlays, you can do in game betting, player

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Speaker 7: bet like, it's just crazy. When that was introduced, I wasn't,

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Speaker 7: as I didn't have as much money as I did

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Speaker 7: when it was really daily fantasy, but I was still

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Speaker 7: involved heavily.

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Speaker 1: He started losing money that he didn't have. He scrounged

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Speaker 1: for money wherever he could, took out loans, and he

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Speaker 1: did stuff he never imagined himself capable of.

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Speaker 7: My wife and I were saving for our wedding. We

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Speaker 7: had an account, and I dipped from that account and

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Speaker 7: that was pretty low, dipped into some other money that

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Speaker 7: I shouldn't have gotten my hands on.

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Speaker 1: What did it feel like when you were doing it?

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Speaker 7: During the time, all I cared about was getting that

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Speaker 7: next bet in. But once that that was in there,

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Speaker 7: once I lost, I felt like such a slimy, nasty

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Speaker 7: case of garbage because I soooped to such a low

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Speaker 7: level to get a bet in.

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Speaker 1: You didn't need an algorithm to see that Jeff had

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Speaker 1: a problem. But an algorithm could easily have spotted it.

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Speaker 7: It's all about the action for the convulsion. For me,

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Speaker 7: I'll speak for myself, it's not about the money.

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Speaker 1: Does everybody kind of agree? It's not about the money.

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Speaker 7: Absolutely. One of my favorite sayings is, we could fill

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Speaker 7: this room up with one hundred dollars bills and it

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Speaker 7: still wouldn't be good enough for us.

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Speaker 1: Jeff doesn't have a drinking problem. Jeff doesn't do drugs,

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Speaker 1: Jeff doesn't feel the appeal of any other addictive behaviors.

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Speaker 1: It's just sports gambling. But the pull is strong, so

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Speaker 1: strong that even after his wife throws him out of

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Speaker 1: their home, even after he's forced to move back in

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Speaker 1: with his parents, even then, he still keeps on punching

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Speaker 1: his bets into DraftKings and FanDuel. It made me what

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Speaker 1: I feel.

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Speaker 7: It was a monster, and it's hard to it's very

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Speaker 7: hard for me to to to say, like to let myself,

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Speaker 7: to forgive myself, so to speak, because of all the

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Speaker 7: relationships I've strained, the money I've taken, and it's just

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Speaker 7: it effect. It just made me an angry, angry person,

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Speaker 7: very irritable, just like dope sick. Almost. I want to say, like,

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Speaker 7: I've never been dope sick, but it was like, unless

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Speaker 7: you're in action, you're not. Actually you don't feel human.

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Speaker 1: The sports gambling companies have this phrase responsible gaming. The

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Speaker 1: idea is to everyone else off of the hook of

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Speaker 1: worrying too much about the Jeffs of the world, whose

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Speaker 1: behavior is totally unaffected by the warnings.

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Speaker 8: Gambling addiction can make change seem out of reach, but

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Speaker 8: help is closer than you think. Ready for a fresh start,

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Speaker 8: visit ny dot gov bard slash ny responsible gaming to

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Speaker 8: learn more.

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Speaker 1: These PSAs are a little like the safety talks on airplanes,

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Speaker 1: blasted at everyone and listened to by no one anyway.

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Speaker 1: At some point into a sports gambling life, Jeff began

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Speaker 1: having suicidal thoughts. He'd made plenty of bets and lost

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Speaker 1: piles of money, but no one from the sports betting

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Speaker 1: company's picked up on it. No one called, no one

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Speaker 1: suggested he take a break. Did you ever feel like

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Speaker 1: they were trying to detect that you had a problem

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Speaker 1: so they could get rid of you or get you

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Speaker 1: to help.

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Speaker 7: H I would not say that. No, no, they would

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Speaker 7: the more money you spent, I feel like the more

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Speaker 7: you get the emails, I know that they had those

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Speaker 7: cool They have cool off periods, but it's very easy

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Speaker 7: to turn off a cool off or it's very easy

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Speaker 7: to use another account if you have if you truly

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Speaker 7: want to, if you want to, if you want to gamble,

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Speaker 7: you're going to find a way to sports bet.

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Speaker 1: It actually didn't occur to Jeff that the new sports

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Speaker 1: gambling industrial complex for any responsibility at all for what

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Speaker 1: had happened to him, that he was at the mercy

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Speaker 1: of these new commercial forces that in some earlier age

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Speaker 1: he might never have encountered. He just blamed himself. Who

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Speaker 1: wasn't until his wife persuaded him to join Gambler's anonymous

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Speaker 1: that he saw just how toxic the environment was.

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Speaker 7: I see people come in, young, young kids, and they're

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Speaker 7: they're they're getting emails spammed to them from from FanDuel

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Speaker 7: and DraftKings. They're they're just getting bombarded. It's it's so enticing,

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Speaker 7: it's so enticing, and that's just the world that we

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Speaker 7: live in.

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Speaker 1: You have to adapt and defend yourself exactly.

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Speaker 7: That's all I can do is keep going to the program,

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Speaker 7: keep going to meetings, speak, be around like minded people

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Speaker 7: who want to get better and want to do the

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Speaker 7: right thing, Because I know if I go back down

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Speaker 7: that road, I'm going to end up doing the shady

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Speaker 7: stuff that got me to the point of nearly taking

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Speaker 7: my life. I would go to sleep every night praying

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Speaker 7: that I didn't I don't wake up.

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Speaker 1: Just this one guy with a problem, who my producer

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Speaker 1: sort of randomly found in an online chat room full

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Speaker 1: of problem gamblers, and he was brave enough to talk

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Speaker 1: with us. One guy with a problem you pick up

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Speaker 1: in a chat room isn't exactly science or even social science,

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Speaker 1: but this one guy happens to be almost perfectly representative

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Speaker 1: of a very big social problem.

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Speaker 9: What's really interesting about gambling in general and sports gambling

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Speaker 9: is a subset of gambling. Gambling in general is the

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Speaker 9: way in which is sort of the most efficient kind

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Speaker 9: of addiction.

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Speaker 1: Charles fan Lehman of the Manhattan Institute, which calls itself

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Speaker 1: a right of center think tank. So I guess Charles

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Speaker 1: is just done a right of center dive into a

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Speaker 1: bunch of new academic research about sports gambling.

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Speaker 9: I think about slot machines which are just like designed

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Speaker 9: to slowly gently take you down to zero. It's like

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Speaker 9: you're can have a complicated relationship with marijuana, you get

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Speaker 9: a complicated relationship with heroin, as it turns out. But

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Speaker 9: like gambling addiction, if you gamble compulsively, you just keep

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Speaker 9: doing it until you have lost all of your money.

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Speaker 9: It's very efficient, and so it's very informative.

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Speaker 1: It's informative because its outcomes are so clean, but it's

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Speaker 1: also informative because of the way sports gambling has rolled

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Speaker 1: out over the past five years, state by state. If

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Speaker 1: the states had legalized sports gambling all at once, its

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Speaker 1: effects would be harder to study. But this is like

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Speaker 1: a giant natural experiment. You have data being generated in

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Speaker 1: states that have approved gambling side by side with states

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Speaker 1: that have it. Walk me through some of the research

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Speaker 1: that has sort of affected the way you think about it.

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Speaker 9: The sort of bottom line is that economic outcomes get

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Speaker 9: much worse, and more precisely, households on average become much

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Speaker 9: more precarious, and in particular, the kinds of households that

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Speaker 9: are already at risk of precarity become much more precarious.

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Speaker 9: And what I mean by that is, their risks of

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Speaker 9: defaulting on credit go up, their risk of going to

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Speaker 9: delinquency goes up, their risk of bankruptcy goes up twenty

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Speaker 9: five to thirty percent, which is a big jump from

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Speaker 9: a low baseline.

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Speaker 1: One jeff is disturbing. A million jeffs is a big

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Speaker 1: social problem, and what the research is showing is that

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Speaker 1: every day America has a lot more jefs.

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Speaker 9: One of the sort of shocking numbers is for every

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Speaker 9: dollars spent on sports gambling, two dollars of investment are

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Speaker 9: foregone money transferred into your like Schwab account or whatever.

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Speaker 9: People are spending it today rather than on tomorrow. And

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Speaker 9: then the point about you know, the most precarious is

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Speaker 9: that when you sort of dig down into who is

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Speaker 9: most affected, it is generally a young men who across

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Speaker 9: a variety of indicators, are prone to risky behaviors, self

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Speaker 9: harming risky behaviors. And b it is often those households

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Speaker 9: that already have problems with credit, already have some history

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Speaker 9: of bankruptcy or delinquency. And so there's people who are

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Speaker 9: sort of already primed to not make the most responsible decisions,

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Speaker 9: have gas poort on the fire.

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Speaker 1: Of course, a gambling problem first reveals itself as a

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Speaker 1: money problem, But when a money problem is caused by

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Speaker 1: a gambling problem, there are some shocking side effects.

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Speaker 9: When the home team has an upset loss an fell game,

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Speaker 9: there is a statistically significant increase in rates of into

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Speaker 9: a partner of violence domestic violence. The increases even larger

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Speaker 9: in states that have sports gambling. And the point is like,

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Speaker 9: not only is sports gambling sort of leading people who

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Speaker 9: might not have great judgment into really terrible situations for themselves,

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Speaker 9: it is contributing to these terrible situations for the people

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Speaker 9: who are They are surrounded with their loved ones, their partners, etc.

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Speaker 1: It's amplifying fan emotion.

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Speaker 9: Yes, if you know it feels bad to lose a

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Speaker 9: big bet, it feels particularly bad if you have everything

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Speaker 9: riding on it. And if you're the sort of person

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Speaker 9: who has everything writing on it, maybe it's not great

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Speaker 9: that you were able to place a big bet from

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Speaker 9: your phone in the first place.

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Speaker 1: The argument that people made back before sports gambling became

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Speaker 1: legal is that Americans were already betting on sports. Legalize

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Speaker 1: it and regulate it, and it'd be easier to identify

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Speaker 1: people with gambling problems and help them to get help.

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Speaker 1: What happened instead is that more people are developing gambling

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Speaker 1: problems because more people are gambling. I mean, that's why

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Speaker 1: in states that legalized sports gambling, the savings rate falls

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Speaker 1: and the bankruptcy rate rises. So you've got to kind

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Speaker 1: of ask why is this social experiment going so wrong?

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Speaker 10: Ohio generally is the caboose when it comes to gambling,

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Speaker 10: and that's not a bad place to be because you

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Speaker 10: learn so much from all of the states that have

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Speaker 10: come before.

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Speaker 1: Meet Matt Schuler, Ohio's sports gambling regulator. Ohio only legalized

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Speaker 1: sports betting last year, but it already allows seventeen different

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Speaker 1: mobile sports gaming apps. Up till now, Matt's job has

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Speaker 1: been to regulate casinos in the state. This new form

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Speaker 1: of gambling, well, it's added a whole new wing to

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Speaker 1: Matt's duties. Not all of the states that legalize sports

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Speaker 1: gambling have someone like Matt, but most of them do

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Speaker 1: someone who's never regulated sports gambling and is being asked

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Speaker 1: to figure it out quickly. Most of these regulator types

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Speaker 1: declined to come on podcasts, But since he's been in

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Speaker 1: his new job, that's seen some stuff that he really

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Speaker 1: feels the need to talk about.

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Speaker 10: So here's an example of something I think is rather

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Speaker 10: dastard One of the sports books in our state. If

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Speaker 10: you place three straight wagers, whether it's on different teams

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Speaker 10: or different aspects of a game with the same team,

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Speaker 10: that app will automatically take your three separate straight bets

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Speaker 10: and turn it into a parlay bet. In a parlay,

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Speaker 10: you have to get all three of those right to win. Now,

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Speaker 10: you might have won two out of three and actually

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Speaker 10: you won something. But when you roll it into a

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Speaker 10: parlay automatically, sometimes they don't even know that happened.

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Speaker 1: The better doesn't even have to approve.

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Speaker 10: No, that's bizarre. I think it's sinister.

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Speaker 1: The apps all have a lot of these little nudges,

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Speaker 1: not just to place bets, but to place certain kinds

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Speaker 1: of bets. Parle bets tend to make more money for

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Speaker 1: the sports betting companies because it's easier to trick people

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Speaker 1: into taking bad odds on these bets. Parley bets are

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Speaker 1: long shot bets, and the human mind is notoriously horrible

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Speaker 1: at thinking about long shots. Offer most people fifty to

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Speaker 1: one odds, and they get so excited that they don't

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Speaker 1: notice that they should really be getting one hundred to one.

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Speaker 1: What else needs to be done that isn't being done?

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Speaker 1: Like where else do you? When you look out, you

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Speaker 1: say like, I can't believe that's allowed.

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Speaker 10: All operators are required at least here in Ohio, and

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Speaker 10: I'm sure this is the case elsewhere to use the

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Speaker 10: very kind of sophisticated data they collect on their customers

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Speaker 10: to identify those that are engaging in problematic handling behavior,

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Speaker 10: chasing bets and losing and betting double and losing and

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Speaker 10: trying to dig themselves out of this hole. That has

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Speaker 10: a good purpose to it if you're going to limit

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Speaker 10: a player. But what we're seeing is the expert gamblers

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Speaker 10: are the ones that they're shutting the door to.

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Speaker 1: Let me put this another way, the new sports gambling

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Speaker 1: companies are using their state mandates to limit problem gamblers

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Speaker 1: as cover to limit expert gamblers while not doing much

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Speaker 1: of anything about the problem gamblers. This, of course, drives

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Speaker 1: Matt nuts in casinos. He could see the problem gamblers.

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Speaker 1: He could give casino employees a checklist of signs to

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Speaker 1: watch for in their customers, anger, distress, drug abuse. He

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Speaker 1: could find the casinos if they ignored those signs. With

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Speaker 1: these new sports books, you can't see the gamblers. All

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Speaker 1: you can see are the social problems.

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Speaker 10: We know there is a big problem with a predatory

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Speaker 10: approach to people who are inclined to lose and double

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Speaker 10: down and lose that and go further and further and

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Speaker 10: further without intervention. And how are we as a regular

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Speaker 10: to be able to distinguish types of behavior where banning

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Speaker 10: someone for the right reasons because they have a gambling

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Speaker 10: problem are able to be conducted versus those that are

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Speaker 10: being banned because they're too good, leaving this population of

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Speaker 10: vulnerable individuals in the middle who are just losing their money.

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Speaker 10: And that's what we are working on. It's going to

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Speaker 10: be a long term project for us in other states.

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Speaker 1: A long term project. That's a polite way of saying,

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Speaker 1: no one's doing anything about it. And Matt knows this.

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Speaker 10: I ordered Pizza Hut one night, and when I got

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Speaker 10: my receipt from Pizza Hut, it also gave me a

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Speaker 10: promotion to get on sports book, and he gave me

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Speaker 10: some bonus bets. And of course, being the regulator of

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Speaker 10: the Casino Control Commission, I thought to myself, how in

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Speaker 10: the world. Do they know whether I am on a

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Speaker 10: self exclusion list, whether I am eighteen or otherwise should

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Speaker 10: not be getting these promotions. Well, the truth of the

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Speaker 10: matter is they weren't screening. They just did it. And

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Speaker 10: another sports book did it with Uber where you go

439
00:25:39,196 --> 00:25:41,276
Speaker 10: and do your Uber transaction. The next thing you know,

440
00:25:41,316 --> 00:25:45,916
Speaker 10: you're getting a promotion to bet with some bonus bets

441
00:25:45,916 --> 00:25:48,836
Speaker 10: attached to it. And so I had my minor son

442
00:25:48,916 --> 00:25:51,156
Speaker 10: do it. He got the same thing.

443
00:25:53,076 --> 00:25:55,876
Speaker 1: Matt belongs to a kind of sports gambling support group.

444
00:25:56,716 --> 00:26:00,236
Speaker 1: Its members are all sports gambling regulators in other states.

445
00:26:01,476 --> 00:26:03,276
Speaker 1: These people get on the phone to talk about what

446
00:26:03,316 --> 00:26:05,996
Speaker 1: they're seeing and how hard it is to do anything

447
00:26:06,036 --> 00:26:09,756
Speaker 1: about it, and how frustrating it is because these businesses

448
00:26:09,796 --> 00:26:14,196
Speaker 1: are doing with their customers is so obviously predatory. I mean,

449
00:26:14,196 --> 00:26:16,796
Speaker 1: everyone knows that the group most at risk of contracting

450
00:26:16,796 --> 00:26:20,316
Speaker 1: gambling problems are young men. That's why you attach bets

451
00:26:20,356 --> 00:26:23,436
Speaker 1: to late night pizzas and inflate their egos.

452
00:26:24,156 --> 00:26:28,676
Speaker 10: They call them VIPs. VIP doesn't mean that they're expert gamblers.

453
00:26:28,756 --> 00:26:31,916
Speaker 10: What it means is they're really likely to keep gambling

454
00:26:31,996 --> 00:26:37,956
Speaker 10: and losing their money. And so different sports books you

455
00:26:37,956 --> 00:26:40,076
Speaker 10: can see what they do. In states where they're trying

456
00:26:40,116 --> 00:26:45,596
Speaker 10: to get market share, they will expend a bunch of

457
00:26:45,796 --> 00:26:53,356
Speaker 10: promotional bonus bets on their VIP population to encourage them

458
00:26:53,356 --> 00:26:56,996
Speaker 10: to get into the game. Let me be the skunk

459
00:26:57,036 --> 00:27:00,076
Speaker 10: at the picnic, okay and say, if you are a

460
00:27:00,156 --> 00:27:05,076
Speaker 10: VIP with a sports book, you are their bread and butter.

461
00:27:06,236 --> 00:27:09,356
Speaker 10: And if you're getting bonus bets and you boy, and

462
00:27:09,396 --> 00:27:14,316
Speaker 10: if you have like bedding ambassador that's your own personal

463
00:27:14,916 --> 00:27:20,676
Speaker 10: contact at the sports book, you are definitely losing money

464
00:27:20,996 --> 00:27:25,956
Speaker 10: and you're going to keep losing money because why would

465
00:27:25,996 --> 00:27:26,756
Speaker 10: you be a VIP.

466
00:27:28,036 --> 00:27:31,076
Speaker 1: It's an excellent question. I'm going to jump in here

467
00:27:31,156 --> 00:27:33,356
Speaker 1: and say what I've been saying the past few episodes.

468
00:27:34,276 --> 00:27:36,516
Speaker 1: The sports books that control two thirds of the market,

469
00:27:36,716 --> 00:27:40,396
Speaker 1: DraftKings and Fan Duel, they're still declining our requests for

470
00:27:40,436 --> 00:27:43,476
Speaker 1: an interview. But if anyone wants to respond to what

471
00:27:43,476 --> 00:27:46,796
Speaker 1: Matt's saying here that basically VIPs or profit centers with

472
00:27:46,836 --> 00:27:50,716
Speaker 1: gambling problems, you know where to find me. Our lines

473
00:27:50,716 --> 00:27:56,356
Speaker 1: are open. Oh and our VIPs they're ready to place

474
00:27:56,356 --> 00:27:56,796
Speaker 1: more bags.

475
00:27:58,436 --> 00:27:59,996
Speaker 9: That talk is like an a girl talk.

476
00:28:00,156 --> 00:28:03,356
Speaker 4: Okay, this girl is so permanent.

477
00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:06,156
Speaker 7: Yeah, this is obviously incredibly broad.

478
00:28:06,276 --> 00:28:07,156
Speaker 2: That's very bright.

479
00:28:16,796 --> 00:28:20,716
Speaker 5: Yeah, that top is like literally like Brie Covin.

480
00:28:22,636 --> 00:28:26,196
Speaker 1: Apparently it's Brat's Summer, whatever that means. My producer LJ

481
00:28:26,436 --> 00:28:28,676
Speaker 1: is at this moment trying on outfits with her fellow

482
00:28:28,716 --> 00:28:33,036
Speaker 1: producer Ariella and their fashionista friend Jay because they're about

483
00:28:33,036 --> 00:28:37,316
Speaker 1: to join MGM at MSG to see CSF.

484
00:28:38,316 --> 00:28:41,516
Speaker 6: That's like a very virtual outfit because I don't know,

485
00:28:41,516 --> 00:28:43,956
Speaker 6: it's like he was expensive taste, but you're a little

486
00:28:43,996 --> 00:28:46,156
Speaker 6: bit clueless because I feel like it's not the.

487
00:28:46,036 --> 00:28:46,876
Speaker 11: Most like Charlie I.

488
00:28:49,276 --> 00:28:52,076
Speaker 1: I obviously wasn't there for any of this, but I

489
00:28:52,116 --> 00:28:55,156
Speaker 1: was there the next day when LJ called. It was

490
00:28:55,196 --> 00:28:57,916
Speaker 1: the day of the concert. She had Ariella with her,

491
00:28:58,556 --> 00:29:00,596
Speaker 1: and they were no longer sounding like the girls of

492
00:29:00,636 --> 00:29:05,116
Speaker 1: Brat Summer. So I want to know what happened.

493
00:29:05,756 --> 00:29:08,876
Speaker 5: Oh, well, we're going to lj's friend's house to get

494
00:29:08,916 --> 00:29:11,556
Speaker 5: out fits for the show because she has this.

495
00:29:11,636 --> 00:29:14,596
Speaker 11: Like amazing Sex and the City esque wardrobe.

496
00:29:15,196 --> 00:29:18,516
Speaker 5: And then once we're there, LJ starts feeling like something's

497
00:29:18,916 --> 00:29:25,596
Speaker 5: really off, so we call her VIP Courtisan Courtney. She

498
00:29:25,636 --> 00:29:26,356
Speaker 5: doesn't pick up.

499
00:29:27,436 --> 00:29:30,316
Speaker 1: Even as LJ was picking out her wardrobe. She continued

500
00:29:30,316 --> 00:29:34,076
Speaker 1: to lay down college football bets with Rufus Peabody. These

501
00:29:34,116 --> 00:29:37,676
Speaker 1: were distinctly not the bets of a VIP. I mean,

502
00:29:38,076 --> 00:29:41,636
Speaker 1: they were big bets, many thousands of dollars, but they

503
00:29:41,636 --> 00:29:45,956
Speaker 1: were also smart bets. The odds generally moved in her

504
00:29:45,956 --> 00:29:50,076
Speaker 1: favor after she'd made them. For instance, LJ took betmgm's

505
00:29:50,116 --> 00:29:52,956
Speaker 1: early line of UCLA in twenty five points against LSU.

506
00:29:53,716 --> 00:29:56,836
Speaker 1: The closing line was twenty one and a half. That

507
00:29:56,836 --> 00:29:59,236
Speaker 1: bet looked smart, maybe too smart.

508
00:30:00,156 --> 00:30:02,956
Speaker 3: I texted her and called no answer. I was like,

509
00:30:03,316 --> 00:30:05,676
Speaker 3: maybe I'm being paranoid. She just doesn't work over the weekends,

510
00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:08,436
Speaker 3: which I think is the case. Then at nine eighteen,

511
00:30:08,716 --> 00:30:11,596
Speaker 3: I got a text from her that said, Hi, Lydia,

512
00:30:11,756 --> 00:30:14,756
Speaker 3: I am very sorry, but unfortunately we are no longer

513
00:30:14,796 --> 00:30:17,236
Speaker 3: able to offer you the tickets for tonight due to

514
00:30:17,236 --> 00:30:19,636
Speaker 3: the fact that your account has factored down during the

515
00:30:19,716 --> 00:30:22,236
Speaker 3: last week. If there are any changes in the future,

516
00:30:22,316 --> 00:30:24,276
Speaker 3: I would love to welcome you back to our program,

517
00:30:24,596 --> 00:30:26,556
Speaker 3: but I am unable to do anything at this point.

518
00:30:28,556 --> 00:30:32,636
Speaker 1: LJ will never know what happened. She'll text Courtney, she'll

519
00:30:32,636 --> 00:30:35,756
Speaker 1: call Courtney, she'll do everything but figure out where Courtney

520
00:30:35,756 --> 00:30:38,036
Speaker 1: lives to leave the head of a horse on her doorstep.

521
00:30:39,516 --> 00:30:42,236
Speaker 1: Courtney will no longer want to be her friend, her

522
00:30:42,316 --> 00:30:47,236
Speaker 1: VIP concierge because LJ is no longer a VIP.

523
00:30:49,356 --> 00:30:53,156
Speaker 3: I felt like, like, honestly, I felt like analyzing a

524
00:30:53,196 --> 00:30:56,436
Speaker 3: breakup because I was like, look at how good we were,

525
00:30:56,516 --> 00:30:58,316
Speaker 3: and then what happened Fortney.

526
00:30:58,076 --> 00:31:01,396
Speaker 2: My AI girlfriend? Why did she give me tickets? Why

527
00:31:01,436 --> 00:31:02,636
Speaker 2: did you stop talking to me?

528
00:31:03,956 --> 00:31:05,636
Speaker 1: I didn't want to say what I was thinking just then,

529
00:31:06,556 --> 00:31:09,196
Speaker 1: but LJ always knows anyway when I'm thinking before I

530
00:31:09,276 --> 00:31:11,276
Speaker 1: say it, before.

531
00:31:10,956 --> 00:31:13,356
Speaker 2: You say, you should not have done those bets.

532
00:31:14,036 --> 00:31:16,236
Speaker 3: Beckett says that that's been a situation with all of

533
00:31:16,276 --> 00:31:19,716
Speaker 3: my bets, and he doesn't think that that made any difference,

534
00:31:20,436 --> 00:31:21,756
Speaker 3: like that they were going to just do a sweep.

535
00:31:21,836 --> 00:31:23,236
Speaker 2: I got caught up in a sweep, and then that's

536
00:31:23,276 --> 00:31:24,156
Speaker 2: why I got kicked out.

537
00:31:25,156 --> 00:31:27,556
Speaker 1: That seems rash of them to have invited you in

538
00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:29,236
Speaker 1: the first place. If they were going to do a

539
00:31:29,276 --> 00:31:30,556
Speaker 1: sweep that would sweep.

540
00:31:30,316 --> 00:31:33,636
Speaker 5: You out, I'll say it is they've broke their promise

541
00:31:33,876 --> 00:31:36,476
Speaker 5: and our hearts and our hearts and.

542
00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:38,676
Speaker 1: Put you on an airplane across country for no reason.

543
00:31:38,796 --> 00:31:40,756
Speaker 2: Luckily I was able to cancel my blow drive.

544
00:31:42,116 --> 00:31:44,836
Speaker 1: I still wish she hadn't made those extra bets. She

545
00:31:44,916 --> 00:31:49,516
Speaker 1: could have waited, gotten inside the VIP machine, seen some things,

546
00:31:50,156 --> 00:31:53,956
Speaker 1: at least met a few other VIPs. But none of

547
00:31:53,956 --> 00:31:58,076
Speaker 1: that's going to happen now, and probably never will. This

548
00:31:58,116 --> 00:32:00,516
Speaker 1: world LJ was trying to enter is not just filled

549
00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:05,396
Speaker 1: with problem gamblers. It's built for the problem gambler. This

550
00:32:05,516 --> 00:32:10,316
Speaker 1: VIP machine, it's getting smarter every day. It's a bit

551
00:32:10,396 --> 00:32:14,436
Speaker 1: like watching the slow march of an artificial intelligence. Today

552
00:32:14,436 --> 00:32:16,796
Speaker 1: it sounds dumb, tomorrow will steal your wife and children

553
00:32:16,796 --> 00:32:20,956
Speaker 1: and empty your bank accounts. Smart gamblers like rufus, like LJ,

554
00:32:21,436 --> 00:32:27,196
Speaker 1: are a temporary nuisance, a momentary inconvenience. The machine will

555
00:32:27,196 --> 00:32:29,916
Speaker 1: get better and better at identifying and getting rid of them,

556
00:32:30,436 --> 00:32:33,036
Speaker 1: so that in the end, the VIP lounge is what

557
00:32:33,076 --> 00:32:36,396
Speaker 1: it was always meant to be. A party of guys

558
00:32:36,436 --> 00:32:38,916
Speaker 1: with a pizza promotion in one hand and a ride

559
00:32:38,956 --> 00:32:42,516
Speaker 1: share bonus bet in the other. So we no longer belong.

560
00:32:43,836 --> 00:32:48,356
Speaker 1: We are factored down. Nobody's outside the velvet ropes, weak

561
00:32:48,556 --> 00:32:51,396
Speaker 1: in status but still strong in desire.

562
00:32:52,356 --> 00:32:53,956
Speaker 2: Imagine that we're at the concert.

563
00:32:54,196 --> 00:32:56,396
Speaker 1: You know at the concert got you got bet MGM

564
00:32:56,476 --> 00:32:59,556
Speaker 1: on either side of your VIP courtesans and they're they're

565
00:32:59,636 --> 00:33:03,076
Speaker 1: they're laughing, they're handing you drinks, they're loving everything you do.

566
00:33:03,476 --> 00:33:04,836
Speaker 1: They think that you're just taking.

567
00:33:07,756 --> 00:33:09,116
Speaker 5: Oh my god, I can see it in my head

568
00:33:09,276 --> 00:33:10,476
Speaker 5: to a tears coming.

569
00:33:10,276 --> 00:33:11,556
Speaker 11: To my eye?

570
00:33:11,996 --> 00:33:16,156
Speaker 2: What would you be thinking a lot too? Okay? This

571
00:33:16,276 --> 00:33:18,116
Speaker 2: song really sums up how I feel.

572
00:33:19,196 --> 00:33:23,956
Speaker 11: Do you realizes I could have been a wanted change

573
00:33:23,956 --> 00:33:27,356
Speaker 11: your life? You could have had a back girl by

574
00:33:27,356 --> 00:33:30,956
Speaker 11: your side. You could have had a bad girl, could

575
00:33:31,036 --> 00:33:34,756
Speaker 11: have had a bad girl, bad girl. Do you even

576
00:33:34,996 --> 00:33:38,916
Speaker 11: know no reasons why you have to let me go?

577
00:33:40,036 --> 00:33:44,356
Speaker 3: You could have had a by your side, You could

578
00:33:44,356 --> 00:33:54,316
Speaker 3: have had a m all right, Wow, I feel like

579
00:33:54,356 --> 00:33:55,116
Speaker 3: a real VIP.

580
00:34:01,516 --> 00:34:03,836
Speaker 1: Against the Rules is written and hosted by me Michael

581
00:34:03,916 --> 00:34:06,876
Speaker 1: Lewis and produced by Lydia Gene Coott, Catherine Gerardeau and

582
00:34:06,956 --> 00:34:11,796
Speaker 1: Ariela Markowitz. Our editors Julia Barton, Our engineer is Jake Krski.

583
00:34:12,276 --> 00:34:15,636
Speaker 1: Our music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans

584
00:34:15,636 --> 00:34:19,716
Speaker 1: of stell Wagon Cinfinet. Our fact checker is Lauren Vespoli.

585
00:34:20,876 --> 00:34:24,436
Speaker 1: Against the Rules is a production of Pushkin Industries. To

586
00:34:24,516 --> 00:34:29,676
Speaker 1: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

587
00:34:30,116 --> 00:34:33,116
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like

588
00:34:33,196 --> 00:34:36,516
Speaker 1: to listen to ad free and learn about other exclusive offerings,

589
00:34:36,956 --> 00:34:39,796
Speaker 1: don't forget to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription

590
00:34:40,196 --> 00:34:44,076
Speaker 1: at pushkin dot fm, slash Plus, or on our Apple

591
00:34:44,116 --> 00:34:46,636
Speaker 1: show page.

592
00:34:55,596 --> 00:34:58,996
Speaker 3: I feel like I'm more nervous Scenariola because I feel

593
00:34:59,036 --> 00:34:59,916
Speaker 3: like it's actually really.

594
00:34:59,796 --> 00:35:01,276
Speaker 2: Hard to pretend that you're someone you're not.

595
00:35:02,836 --> 00:35:05,316
Speaker 1: We'll see everybody on the streets of New York are

596
00:35:05,356 --> 00:35:07,356
Speaker 1: pretending to be someone. There not You're the only one

597
00:35:07,396 --> 00:35:09,196
Speaker 1: in New York City's not pretending to be someone and

598
00:35:09,196 --> 00:35:12,436
Speaker 1: they're not lean into We're just I'm just having fun.

599
00:35:12,916 --> 00:35:15,276
Speaker 1: It's like and and if you can give off the

600
00:35:15,316 --> 00:35:16,876
Speaker 1: odor of I have family money?

601
00:35:17,116 --> 00:35:18,916
Speaker 2: Yeah, but how do you give off the odor if

602
00:35:18,916 --> 00:35:19,916
Speaker 2: I have family money?

603
00:35:20,316 --> 00:35:21,356
Speaker 1: Giggle a lot.

604
00:35:22,716 --> 00:35:23,396
Speaker 5: Four people.

605
00:35:23,476 --> 00:35:24,236
Speaker 9: I hate laughter.

606
00:35:25,916 --> 00:35:28,316
Speaker 1: Don't do things like ask them to pack up the leftovers.

607
00:35:28,796 --> 00:35:33,076
Speaker 6: Okay, I mean I shouldn't be putting pieces of bread

608
00:35:33,156 --> 00:35:33,956
Speaker 6: into my purse.

609
00:35:35,356 --> 00:35:37,596
Speaker 3: Don't steal the toilet paper from the bathroom and try

610
00:35:37,596 --> 00:35:38,156
Speaker 3: and bring it home.

611
00:35:38,676 --> 00:35:41,316
Speaker 1: Don't do that, don't do the things that podcast producers

612
00:35:41,316 --> 00:35:41,836
Speaker 1: normally do.