1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:05,040 Speaker 1: Cast your memories back there, folks, It's twenty twenty January third, 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:09,560 Speaker 1: your faithful friends and correspondence. Here at Stuff they Don't 3 00:00:09,600 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: want you to Know. Dive into an intensely disturbing case. 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:19,680 Speaker 1: This is not appropriate for all listeners. It is the 5 00:00:19,720 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: story of a drifter, petty criminal, a man of violence, 6 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,280 Speaker 1: a serial killer named Samuel Little. Do you guys remember 7 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:28,840 Speaker 1: this one? 8 00:00:29,120 --> 00:00:33,320 Speaker 2: I do? This guy used to well he yeah, he 9 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 2: used to draw pictures, I believe, I don't. I can't 10 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,040 Speaker 2: remember if he was drawn or painted, but he would 11 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:45,599 Speaker 2: create visual art of the women that were his victims. 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: And this is also another example of a cold case 13 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:55,680 Speaker 1: that was able to be reassessed with improvements in DNA testing. Yeah, 14 00:00:56,880 --> 00:01:00,760 Speaker 1: so with that caveat and with that description, and please 15 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: join us for tonight's classic episode. 16 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 3: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 17 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:12,560 Speaker 3: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 18 00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 3: learn this stuff they Don't want you to Know. A 19 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,760 Speaker 3: production of iHeart Radios How Stuff Works. 20 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,679 Speaker 2: Hello, welcome back to the show. My name is Matt. 21 00:01:31,000 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: They call me Ben. We are joined as always with 22 00:01:33,360 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: our super producer Paul Mission Control Decan most importantly, you 23 00:01:38,640 --> 00:01:42,120 Speaker 1: are here, and that makes this stuff they don't want 24 00:01:42,200 --> 00:01:46,760 Speaker 1: you to know. This is a dark tale, which is 25 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,120 Speaker 1: somewhat of our wanton warrant here on the show. However, 26 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:56,280 Speaker 1: this contains graphic descriptions of violence and abuse, and as 27 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: such may not be suitable for all audiences. 28 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:02,760 Speaker 2: Yes, very much so. This is a true crime episode 29 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 2: and all of those things are going to come along 30 00:02:05,440 --> 00:02:05,640 Speaker 2: with it. 31 00:02:06,440 --> 00:02:09,840 Speaker 1: And you know, Matt, over the years, you and I 32 00:02:10,000 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 1: have investigated any number of serial murderers, from the well 33 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:18,799 Speaker 1: known like Jack the Ripper asque stuff, to the obscure, 34 00:02:19,560 --> 00:02:24,280 Speaker 1: from the ancient to some that remain unapprehended in the 35 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,520 Speaker 1: modern day. I think we have a three part series 36 00:02:26,560 --> 00:02:26,920 Speaker 1: on that. 37 00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 2: Right, Yes, several unapprehended and even I think we've even 38 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 2: speculated that there are anywhere from tens to hundreds of 39 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,400 Speaker 2: uncaught unknown serial killers that are operating. 40 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,320 Speaker 1: That's true. We pulled those numbers from some fairly solid databases. 41 00:02:46,639 --> 00:02:49,880 Speaker 1: That wasn't just us choosing numbers. 42 00:02:50,160 --> 00:02:53,240 Speaker 2: Of course, they are estimations, but it is still a 43 00:02:53,360 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: nice creepy fact, just to keep with you when you 44 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:57,079 Speaker 2: tuck into bed at night. 45 00:02:57,320 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 1: Right, and today's episode focuses on a man you may 46 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,919 Speaker 1: have never heard of before, unless you are someone who 47 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:12,040 Speaker 1: keeps up with this grizzly aspect of the news. This 48 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:17,880 Speaker 1: is a man named Samuel Little. Now, before we spoil everything, 49 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:24,120 Speaker 1: let's start with just the nuts and bolts of Samuel Little. 50 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,520 Speaker 1: So who is he? Here are the facts. 51 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 2: The man we know as Samuel Little was born Samuel McDowell. 52 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 2: He was born in nineteen forty June seventh of that year. 53 00:03:35,360 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: He was born in Reynolds, Georgia. It's about two hours 54 00:03:38,760 --> 00:03:45,560 Speaker 2: south of Atlanta, where we record this podcast. And his 55 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 2: early life, like a lot of just regular people, if 56 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:52,760 Speaker 2: you're not being written up in the media somewhere, is 57 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 2: pretty short on details. He did say something to the 58 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 2: effect that his mother was a sex worker, and though 59 00:04:00,920 --> 00:04:05,400 Speaker 2: not in those words, and the authorities believe that he 60 00:04:05,760 --> 00:04:09,200 Speaker 2: may have been born while his mother was actually in 61 00:04:09,280 --> 00:04:13,560 Speaker 2: prison or incarcerated in some way, and he ended up 62 00:04:13,600 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 2: being raised by his grandmother in a completely different place 63 00:04:17,000 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 2: in Lorraine, Ohio. And his childhood, just from those circumstances alone, 64 00:04:23,040 --> 00:04:27,360 Speaker 2: along with some other possible things that may have happened 65 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:29,719 Speaker 2: to him, leads us to believe he probably had a 66 00:04:29,800 --> 00:04:31,360 Speaker 2: rather difficult childhood. 67 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,680 Speaker 1: Yeah, he was from an impoverished family. We know he 68 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: attended Hawthorne Junior High. We know that at some point 69 00:04:40,120 --> 00:04:44,800 Speaker 1: he dropped out of high school due to both low 70 00:04:44,880 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: grades and intense behavioral issues. 71 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,640 Speaker 2: Yes, and I can't speak too much to this stuff, 72 00:04:51,680 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 2: but my wife has experience with children with behavioral issues, 73 00:04:56,760 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 2: the severe ones, and it tends to be so something 74 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 2: occurring within the home situation that is the biggest effect 75 00:05:06,240 --> 00:05:10,880 Speaker 2: on behavioral issues within a school environment. Just putting that 76 00:05:10,920 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 2: outre absolutely, so, we're just painting you this picture here. 77 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:16,320 Speaker 2: It makes sense where his life is like, at least 78 00:05:16,400 --> 00:05:18,919 Speaker 2: leading to an extent, right, absolutely. 79 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 1: I mean, you know, luckily, education and the study of 80 00:05:23,839 --> 00:05:30,200 Speaker 1: psychology and sociology, these disciplines have all evolved to the 81 00:05:30,240 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 1: point where we can safely say that the majority of 82 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 1: times when a child is exhibiting behavioral issues of some sort, 83 00:05:40,800 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: especially violent issues, that it's coming from somewhere other than them, 84 00:05:45,360 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: you know, most of the time. Again, just most of 85 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:48,520 Speaker 1: the time. 86 00:05:48,839 --> 00:05:51,800 Speaker 2: Or many of the times. Yeah, you're right, Ben, You're 87 00:05:51,839 --> 00:05:55,920 Speaker 2: absolutely right. We cannot get into mass generalizations here. It's 88 00:05:56,000 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 2: just it is a somewhat trackable common thing. Once you 89 00:06:01,440 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: get down into the nitty gritty, and that does not 90 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 2: mean parents out there, that it is your fault, just 91 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 2: if you're if you're sure, yeah, yeah, of course. 92 00:06:10,160 --> 00:06:13,400 Speaker 1: The reason that I'm doing I'm speaking in this way 93 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,880 Speaker 1: about it, Matt, is that I want to in the 94 00:06:16,920 --> 00:06:19,839 Speaker 1: future do an episode that I'll just pitch to you 95 00:06:19,920 --> 00:06:22,080 Speaker 1: now on air. It's totally okay, so you know, there's 96 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,240 Speaker 1: no right or wrong answer. What do you think about 97 00:06:25,400 --> 00:06:30,080 Speaker 1: the about a future episode called can people be Born Evil? 98 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 2: Oh? That's great? Yeah? Or just is evil? 99 00:06:33,480 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 1: Really? 100 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 2: Yeah? You're right, you're absolutely right. Evil really is evil? 101 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: Real? Is I think? I don't know, it's a little 102 00:06:39,440 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 1: different because that goes into the realm of philosophy. 103 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,840 Speaker 2: So well it does. Both of them are right. So 104 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 2: just by labeling anything evil, maybe it should be what 105 00:06:51,400 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 2: we just need a different word for. Can people be born? 106 00:06:57,600 --> 00:07:02,960 Speaker 1: Okay? Well, there are all sorts of terrible people. You 107 00:07:03,000 --> 00:07:05,279 Speaker 1: can be terrible and not be evil. You could just 108 00:07:05,320 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 1: be a boorish person. But the reason the reason I'm 109 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,880 Speaker 1: asking this first off, yet, maybe it's a little buzzfeedy 110 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: to say can children be born evil? But I'm interested 111 00:07:15,880 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: in the psychology and science behind that because we have 112 00:07:21,120 --> 00:07:24,360 Speaker 1: more data to bring to bear. But when we ask 113 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: about when we ask whether evil exists, we quickly run 114 00:07:28,400 --> 00:07:32,640 Speaker 1: into the comparison problem, which is, of course, one person's 115 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: evil is another person's heroism. Right. Anyhow, Samuel little to 116 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: serve childhood. His criminal career begins early. He is arrested 117 00:07:44,280 --> 00:07:49,160 Speaker 1: for burglary in Omaha, Nebraska, on November twenty ninth, nineteen 118 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:53,800 Speaker 1: fifty six. So he's sixteen, and he is sentenced to 119 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: serve time in a program for juvenile offenders in his twenties. 120 00:08:00,120 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: After more run ins with crime over those intervening four 121 00:08:03,520 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: years in his twenties, he relocates to Florida, where he 122 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 1: reunites and lives with his mother. During this time, he 123 00:08:10,480 --> 00:08:14,880 Speaker 1: works a variety of jobs, including stints at a cemetery. Also, 124 00:08:15,080 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: during this time, he doubles down and quickly establishes his 125 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:26,400 Speaker 1: career as a prolific criminal. And we're curating the way 126 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:30,240 Speaker 1: that we exhibit the facts here. We want to build 127 00:08:30,360 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 1: our build our case first. So what do we know 128 00:08:33,640 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: about What do we know about him from his twenties on? 129 00:08:36,600 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: Sure, So after sixteen he gets to seventeen, and then 130 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,760 Speaker 2: really for the next eighteen or so, years from nineteen 131 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 2: fifty seven until nineteen seventy five, Little would end up 132 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:53,520 Speaker 2: getting arrested at least twenty six times in eleven different states, 133 00:08:53,920 --> 00:08:58,480 Speaker 2: everywhere from Ohio and Maryland to Florida, Massachusetts, out to 134 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 2: California in Oregon, then to Philadelphia, New Jersey, Arizona, Illinois, 135 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 2: and then Georgia again. And that's not in the order 136 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 2: in which he was arrested. Those are just imagined traveling 137 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 2: to all of those various places and being arrested. 138 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:15,720 Speaker 1: He was on the road frequently. He was a drifter, 139 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,880 Speaker 1: a transient. He was also arrested for a variety of charges. 140 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,920 Speaker 1: It wasn't always the same thing. He was arrested for shoplifting, 141 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,880 Speaker 1: for theft, for assault, for sexual assault or rape. He 142 00:09:28,960 --> 00:09:33,679 Speaker 1: was arrested for aggravated assault on a police officer, DUI's fraud, 143 00:09:33,840 --> 00:09:37,920 Speaker 1: breaking and entering, solicitation of a sex worker, and more. 144 00:09:38,640 --> 00:09:43,079 Speaker 1: So we're fast forwarding to December of nineteen seventy six. 145 00:09:43,640 --> 00:09:47,719 Speaker 1: He is convicted of assaulting one Pamela CA Smith in 146 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: Sunset Hills, Missouri, with the intent this is the language 147 00:09:53,840 --> 00:09:58,120 Speaker 1: of the law here, with the attempt to ravish dash rape. 148 00:09:58,320 --> 00:10:01,760 Speaker 1: And he's sentenced to three months in county jail. So 149 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:06,200 Speaker 1: he was assaulting this person and he fully intended to 150 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:10,920 Speaker 1: sexually assault them, So that was enough to lock him 151 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:16,040 Speaker 1: up for three months. He gets out. There's something else 152 00:10:16,040 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: we want to put. Imagine this if this were true 153 00:10:20,240 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 1: detective or crime show. Imagine this is a vignette that 154 00:10:24,160 --> 00:10:28,960 Speaker 1: occurs just the left of the main story. So just 155 00:10:29,440 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: we're imagining Little. He's in trouble with the law. But 156 00:10:32,480 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: let's go sideways. Let's go to October of nineteen eighty two. 157 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:39,880 Speaker 1: This is the month where the skeletal remains of one 158 00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:44,080 Speaker 1: Melinda La Prix were found in a cemetery in Gautier, Mississippi. 159 00:10:44,840 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: She had last been seen in Pascagoula about a month earlier, 160 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: getting into a brown station wagon with a man that 161 00:10:54,200 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 1: witnesses would later identify as Little. During the investigation, do 162 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:03,679 Speaker 1: sex workers come forward and they say that, you know, 163 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:07,720 Speaker 1: they recognize this guy and that he also assaulted them 164 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:11,240 Speaker 1: in Pasca Gula once in nineteen eighty once in nineteen 165 00:11:11,360 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 1: eighty one. So the next month, nineteen eighty two, The 166 00:11:15,920 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: next month, Little is arrested for shoplifting in Pascagoula and 167 00:11:21,080 --> 00:11:26,360 Speaker 1: police say, you know what, he matches the description of 168 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 1: our unidentified subject in the murder of Melinda La Prix. 169 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, and he ends up getting charged with this murder 170 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:37,800 Speaker 2: for this woman, as well as the aggravated assaults on 171 00:11:37,840 --> 00:11:41,640 Speaker 2: the other two sex workers. But here's the thing. The 172 00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: grand jury does not indict. 173 00:11:43,559 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: Him because they doubt the trustworthiness of the witnesses. 174 00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 2: Yes, exactly. And you can imagine what's going into play 175 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:01,880 Speaker 2: there with a you know, a quote jury of his 176 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:07,000 Speaker 2: peers unquote of the grand jury, like taking the word 177 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 2: of a sex worker, which is a terrible thing that 178 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:12,800 Speaker 2: it would be discounted in that way. 179 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:17,480 Speaker 1: But it clearly, it clearly was because these witnesses were 180 00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:22,880 Speaker 1: involved in what would be seen as the CD underbelly 181 00:12:22,920 --> 00:12:24,080 Speaker 1: of Pasca Gula. 182 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:30,480 Speaker 2: It's true, It's true. I understand why an individual may 183 00:12:31,040 --> 00:12:34,359 Speaker 2: take the word of someone from the you know, CD underbelly. 184 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 2: Maybe not at face value, but it is. It's just 185 00:12:37,800 --> 00:12:40,160 Speaker 2: terrible to read about it, I guess from this end 186 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:46,200 Speaker 2: of history. So anyway, he gets extradited outside of the 187 00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: state to Florida and he's going to face charges for 188 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,680 Speaker 2: another murder, and this was the murder of Patricia Ann Mount. 189 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,600 Speaker 2: She was found in Forest Grove, Florida, in September of 190 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:02,599 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty two, and the authorities believed that, you know, 191 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 2: perhaps Little is responsible. So he gets sent to Florida 192 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 2: to at least face the charges. 193 00:13:09,520 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: And he does go to trial. He goes to trial 194 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: for the murder of Patricia Ann Mount. He is acquitted 195 00:13:17,720 --> 00:13:21,400 Speaker 1: in January of nineteen eighty four. In October of nineteen 196 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:25,720 Speaker 1: eighty four, San Diego police officers find Little with a 197 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:30,280 Speaker 1: woman who has accused him of attacking her, so he 198 00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:36,240 Speaker 1: gets arrested. He's charged in that assault and one that 199 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: occurred a month or so earlier that was also in 200 00:13:40,000 --> 00:13:45,440 Speaker 1: San Diego. He gets tried for attempted murder. In these cases, 201 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:51,360 Speaker 1: the jury deadlocks again, so instead he pleads guilty to 202 00:13:51,440 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 1: assault in false imprisonment. He's sentenced to four years. He 203 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:58,520 Speaker 1: serves about two and a half. On February one, nineteen 204 00:13:58,559 --> 00:14:01,600 Speaker 1: eighty seven, he he is on parole. He's back on 205 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 1: the streets. He moves to Los Angeles, and then from 206 00:14:04,600 --> 00:14:07,640 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety to two thousand and six he has run 207 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,720 Speaker 1: ins with the law in seven different states. 208 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 2: So we can just go ahead and see here a 209 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:18,280 Speaker 2: pattern where Little seemed to be skirting by getting out 210 00:14:18,320 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 2: of a lot of the legal troubles that he was facing, 211 00:14:22,040 --> 00:14:25,920 Speaker 2: and in several situations where you know, he's being arrested 212 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:30,160 Speaker 2: for a lot of misdemeanors of smaller things, some felonies. 213 00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: Then he ends up, you know, getting getting out, you know, 214 00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:37,480 Speaker 2: not getting indicted for a lot of these things. Then 215 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:39,760 Speaker 2: finally he only goes to jail for two and a 216 00:14:39,800 --> 00:14:43,920 Speaker 2: half years, and then, like like Ben said, he's out. 217 00:14:44,360 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 2: He's on the streets for a long time. 218 00:14:46,920 --> 00:14:48,760 Speaker 1: And then this begins to come to a head. In 219 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,080 Speaker 1: two thousand and seven, law enforcement in Los Angeles arrests 220 00:14:53,080 --> 00:14:57,640 Speaker 1: Samuel Little for possession of cocaine. He is sentenced to 221 00:14:57,640 --> 00:15:01,440 Speaker 1: what is called a drug diversion program for anyone who 222 00:15:01,480 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 1: is unaware. The idea here is that instead of ending 223 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:10,360 Speaker 1: up in the system, one may be able to get 224 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:13,960 Speaker 1: their life back on track right. Maybe they will be 225 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:18,040 Speaker 1: able to maybe what they need is support rather than punishment. 226 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:23,120 Speaker 1: So they have to submit to drug tests, they have 227 00:15:23,160 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 1: to attend counseling, things of that nature, and some of 228 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:29,320 Speaker 1: these programs have great success. However, as soon as he 229 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,040 Speaker 1: is able to leave, Samuel Little is on the lamb. 230 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,800 Speaker 1: He doesn't attend this diversion stuff, because of course he doesn't. 231 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:41,680 Speaker 1: He does not appear in court. The judge issues a 232 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:46,320 Speaker 1: non extraditable warrant. He gets away the fact that his 233 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: non extraditable will come into play soon. 234 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:53,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, extraditable to California from another state is what we're 235 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:56,960 Speaker 2: talking about there. So, then from two thousand and seven 236 00:15:57,200 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: to twenty twelve, a lot of there are multiple law 237 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 2: enforcement officers, individuals that let's say, I don't know what 238 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:09,080 Speaker 2: twelve something like that, let's just put a number to it. 239 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,960 Speaker 2: They come into some kind of contact with Little. His 240 00:16:13,080 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: name continues getting out there with police departments. His record 241 00:16:17,160 --> 00:16:19,880 Speaker 2: is growing and growing. There's a whole filing cabinet at 242 00:16:19,880 --> 00:16:24,360 Speaker 2: this point of Samuel Little, and somebody or several of 243 00:16:24,360 --> 00:16:28,840 Speaker 2: these people discover that he has this warrant, but because 244 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 2: it's non extraditable, they end up letting him go again, 245 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 2: like he's just kind of somehow just slipping through through 246 00:16:38,600 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 2: people's grasps. 247 00:16:40,640 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, we also have to think, if we, you know, 248 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: exercise the perspective of some law enforcement communities, we also 249 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,920 Speaker 1: have to realize that this guy is nothing but trouble. Yeah, 250 00:16:51,960 --> 00:16:54,000 Speaker 1: and so in many cases. They just want to just 251 00:16:54,040 --> 00:16:56,800 Speaker 1: get out of here. If he's shoplifting, you know what 252 00:16:56,840 --> 00:17:01,760 Speaker 1: I mean. In two thousand twelve, a detective for the 253 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: LAPD named Mitzi Roberts gets a match on two cold 254 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 1: murder cases from back in nineteen eighty nine in Los Angeles, 255 00:17:11,680 --> 00:17:15,440 Speaker 1: and then she checks this against the statewide offender database 256 00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:17,679 Speaker 1: and she receives a match. 257 00:17:18,040 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: Is some kind of DNA sample, right. 258 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:25,760 Speaker 1: Yes, And this DNA match identifies the DNA of Samuel Little, 259 00:17:25,800 --> 00:17:31,440 Speaker 1: linking him to the crimes. On September fifth, twenty twelve, 260 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:36,080 Speaker 1: Detective Roberts gets a call from a sheriff in Louisiana. 261 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:40,080 Speaker 1: The deputy say they've traced an ATM purchase by Samuel 262 00:17:40,160 --> 00:17:44,040 Speaker 1: Little to a Mini Mart, a convenience store in Louisville, Kentucky, 263 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:48,719 Speaker 1: and there they find Samuel Little at a nearby Christian shelter. 264 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:53,280 Speaker 1: He is arrested. He is extradited to California for that 265 00:17:53,359 --> 00:17:58,240 Speaker 1: drug charge. This time and then the pieces begin coming together. 266 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:03,120 Speaker 2: Yes, the authorities, they are able to at least link 267 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:07,000 Speaker 2: him to three more or different murders that occurred between 268 00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:10,159 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven and eighty nine over that two year period. 269 00:18:10,200 --> 00:18:16,760 Speaker 2: There and hear their names, Guadalupe Apodaca, Audrey Nelson, and 270 00:18:17,040 --> 00:18:22,719 Speaker 2: Carol Alford and all of these people, and here's that 271 00:18:22,800 --> 00:18:26,800 Speaker 2: trigger warning for you had been beaten and strangled in 272 00:18:26,840 --> 00:18:29,720 Speaker 2: a very similar fashion. And very soon after that, the 273 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 2: police began to suspect that Little has been out there 274 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,479 Speaker 2: for a long time. This is early in his life. 275 00:18:35,600 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: Maybe he had more blood on his hands than just 276 00:18:38,840 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 2: these three people. 277 00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:44,119 Speaker 1: Much much more. That's right. They realized they were looking 278 00:18:44,119 --> 00:18:50,920 Speaker 1: at a genuine serial killer. Investigations were resurrected across the country, 279 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:54,040 Speaker 1: and law enforcement in multiple states began to look at 280 00:18:54,119 --> 00:18:56,800 Speaker 1: other older cold cases. 281 00:18:57,119 --> 00:19:00,280 Speaker 2: Think about all the places he's traveled over all of 282 00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:05,720 Speaker 2: those years, and all the places he's operated. But the authorities, 283 00:19:05,760 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 2: even then, they didn't know that they had just captured 284 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 2: and begun unraveling the case of the most prolific serial 285 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:15,919 Speaker 2: killer in US history. 286 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:23,920 Speaker 1: Down the rabbit hole. After a word from our sponsors, 287 00:19:26,520 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 1: here's where it gets crazy. Let's start with what we know. 288 00:19:32,720 --> 00:19:37,240 Speaker 1: During his initial trial for those first three murders, Samuel 289 00:19:37,320 --> 00:19:43,160 Speaker 1: Little staunchly proclaimed his innocence even after being convicted. Things 290 00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: don't change until a while after he's convicted for those 291 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:52,600 Speaker 1: three murders and sentenced to three consecutive life terms without parole. 292 00:19:53,160 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: He eventually begins to confess other crimes. 293 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,880 Speaker 2: Now it's interesting here, We're gonna kind of get into it. 294 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,080 Speaker 2: But he doesn't want to confess or talk about anything 295 00:20:02,160 --> 00:20:04,359 Speaker 2: until he knows he's not getting out of prison. 296 00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: Right when he knows that there is no appeal, no mistrial, 297 00:20:11,520 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 1: no legal loophole through which he can jump, there's a 298 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,880 Speaker 1: Texas ranger named James Holland who enters the scene. Holland 299 00:20:19,920 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: had started flying to California in twenty eighteen, just last year, 300 00:20:24,560 --> 00:20:28,440 Speaker 1: to interview Little in connection to the nineteen ninety four 301 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:34,720 Speaker 1: murder of a sex worker in Odessa, Texas. Samuel Little 302 00:20:35,760 --> 00:20:40,240 Speaker 1: chooses James Holland to be his confessor to this day, 303 00:20:40,320 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 1: if you ask Holland, he is not sure why Little 304 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,120 Speaker 1: chose him. But if you ask other sources, like Christina 305 00:20:47,160 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: Palizzolo from the Violent Criminal Apprehension Program or VCaP, she 306 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,399 Speaker 1: will say that Little was hoping for a transaction. He 307 00:20:55,440 --> 00:20:57,680 Speaker 1: wanted to move to a different prison now that he 308 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,160 Speaker 1: knew this was his forever. He agreed to come clean 309 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: in exchange for this relocation. If I confess you will 310 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:08,920 Speaker 1: move me. That was the devil's bargain that they made. 311 00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:14,239 Speaker 2: And confess he did. According to Palizzolo, quote, over the 312 00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:17,159 Speaker 2: course of that interview in May, he went through city 313 00:21:17,480 --> 00:21:21,159 Speaker 2: and state and gave Ranger Holland the number of people 314 00:21:21,240 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 2: he killed in each place Jackson, Mississippi one, Cincinnati, Ohio one, Phoenix, 315 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,320 Speaker 2: Arizona three, Las Vegas, Nevada one, and just it went 316 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:32,720 Speaker 2: on and on and on. 317 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:37,239 Speaker 1: And in May of twenty eighteen, Samuel Little confessed to 318 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 1: the nineteen ninety four murder of Denise Christie Brothers in Odessa. 319 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,719 Speaker 1: That's who Holland was looking for. Texas Ranger Holland. He 320 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: pled guilty to the murder of Denise Christie Brothers on 321 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,720 Speaker 1: December thirteenth, and boom, he received another life sentence, so 322 00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: he's up to four. And then on November ninth, he 323 00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:03,240 Speaker 1: confessed to the nineteen ninety six strangulation murder of Melissa Thomas. 324 00:22:03,680 --> 00:22:06,760 Speaker 1: And this goes on and on and on, as you said, Matt, 325 00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:12,439 Speaker 1: the Texas District Attorney and the Wise County Sheriff's office 326 00:22:12,560 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: also announced on November thirteenth that Little had not just 327 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:22,440 Speaker 1: confessed to murders in Texas. He had confessed to dozens 328 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:27,560 Speaker 1: of murders and may have committed more than ninety nine 329 00:22:27,800 --> 00:22:31,520 Speaker 1: zero across what they thought then was fourteen states between 330 00:22:31,600 --> 00:22:33,520 Speaker 1: nineteen seventy and two thousand and five. 331 00:22:34,119 --> 00:22:40,240 Speaker 2: That is horrifying to imagine that, right, And. 332 00:22:40,160 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: The scary thing is we don't have to imagine all 333 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:46,359 Speaker 1: in all. At this point, Samuel Little has been linked 334 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:51,600 Speaker 1: to at least ninety three separate homicides. On October of 335 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,239 Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, the FBI announced that Samuel Little is the 336 00:22:55,240 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: most prolific known serial killer in American history, full stop. 337 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:06,199 Speaker 1: His methods were almost always the same, strangling, beating, and 338 00:23:06,240 --> 00:23:11,080 Speaker 1: assaulting vulnerable women, people who were homeless, people who were 339 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:14,719 Speaker 1: working in the sex industry, runaways, people surviving on the 340 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: fringe of mainstream society. This may be one of the 341 00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 1: more disturbing aspects of the case that you can encounter 342 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:28,560 Speaker 1: firsthand now, should you choose to. You can go see 343 00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 1: video footage of law enforcement interviewing Samuel Little, the FBI 344 00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 1: interviewing them as he recounts in a grandfatherly warm tone 345 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 1: with surprising clarity, the appearance of each victim, their location, 346 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:46,639 Speaker 1: the names he associated with them and so on. He 347 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,760 Speaker 1: also drew sketches of these victims based on his recollections. 348 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one of the most disturbing parts of this 349 00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:58,880 Speaker 2: whole thing, are the sketches, because he just apparently can 350 00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,040 Speaker 2: see them in his mind. 351 00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,000 Speaker 1: Right, and he doesn't have an artistic inclination. 352 00:24:04,359 --> 00:24:05,160 Speaker 2: No, you know what I mean. 353 00:24:05,200 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 1: You can tell it's childlike the way it's straw, you 354 00:24:09,560 --> 00:24:13,280 Speaker 1: know what I mean. Certain features that he remembers are 355 00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:16,080 Speaker 1: emphasized when he would see his skin tone or hair 356 00:24:16,160 --> 00:24:21,080 Speaker 1: color or eye color. While his patterns of murder may 357 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:25,400 Speaker 1: not have changed, he did travel widely, as you said, Matt, 358 00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:29,719 Speaker 1: and this transient lifestyle allowed him to live again on 359 00:24:29,760 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: the fringes like his victims. A detective in Mississippi familiar 360 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: with Little's routines described it thusly. 361 00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,680 Speaker 2: His whole thing was shoplifting. He would work at shoplifting 362 00:24:41,720 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: in a city for three or four days and then 363 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:47,280 Speaker 2: move on. He would take the items to drug areas 364 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 2: and then sell them. Once he was done, he would 365 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,840 Speaker 2: go out early in the morning hours and look for women. 366 00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,679 Speaker 1: So he had this routine, and you can see the 367 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:02,719 Speaker 1: prioritization of the routine, right, It's roughly something along the 368 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: lines of steal to get drugs, to get drugs, do drugs, 369 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:18,359 Speaker 1: and then you're leaving town satisfy that other compulsion. So 370 00:25:20,240 --> 00:25:24,440 Speaker 1: how did he get away for so long? So question 371 00:25:24,480 --> 00:25:36,119 Speaker 1: will address after award from our sponsor we've returned. Let's 372 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:41,080 Speaker 1: start with why little thought he would get away? First 373 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:44,399 Speaker 1: and foremost, and we don't want to be too you know, 374 00:25:44,720 --> 00:25:49,080 Speaker 1: like sixty minutes TV special about this, But first and foremost, 375 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: we have to consider the psychological angle. He's like many 376 00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:58,600 Speaker 1: other serial killers. He's a malignant narcissist. So he's both 377 00:25:58,840 --> 00:26:02,679 Speaker 1: not very intelligent and extremely arrogant. I think some you know, 378 00:26:02,800 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: malignant narcissists have no real use in society, but they 379 00:26:06,119 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: have wildly inaccurate beliefs about their own self perceived intelligence. 380 00:26:11,200 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: Just like a narcissist can never forgive other people for 381 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,640 Speaker 1: the great sin of not being them, they're also incapable 382 00:26:17,680 --> 00:26:21,119 Speaker 1: of seeing worth ability or intelligence in other people. So 383 00:26:21,160 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of the scene where it's like, I'm the 384 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:26,080 Speaker 1: smartest person in any room, you know what I mean, sure, 385 00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 1: or the most the most valuable. No one will ever 386 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: catch me. 387 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:33,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, I know that feeling, you know, that feelings. 388 00:26:33,960 --> 00:26:37,199 Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I'm a giant narcissist. I would say here 389 00:26:37,320 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: the opposite. I'm always the smartest, most self centered person 390 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 2: in every room. That's all I know. And I can't 391 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,200 Speaker 2: say anything about you guys, especially Paul, but I'm the best. 392 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,560 Speaker 1: I think it's pretty great. I think you're pretty pretty topicled. 393 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:59,679 Speaker 2: It's interesting his life experience, though, kind of kind of 394 00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:03,199 Speaker 2: speaks to why he would feel that way. So like, 395 00:27:03,280 --> 00:27:06,520 Speaker 2: even if he wasn't an ingrained narcissist, I don't know 396 00:27:06,560 --> 00:27:08,439 Speaker 2: how the psychology of it functions. I don't know if 397 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:13,600 Speaker 2: just one is a narcissist. But after all of his 398 00:27:13,720 --> 00:27:17,680 Speaker 2: run ins with police over all these years, all the 399 00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:20,680 Speaker 2: things against laws and against mores and all that he'd 400 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 2: been doing up to this point outside of homicide, he'd 401 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,840 Speaker 2: just gotten away with it. So I can see why 402 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:30,880 Speaker 2: he would lead go down that path of at least 403 00:27:30,960 --> 00:27:34,480 Speaker 2: mentally believing that he's not going to get caught. 404 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: I see, yeah, yeah, I can see that too. The 405 00:27:39,080 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: second thing is, as we mentioned, his victim choice. Like 406 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,399 Speaker 1: other would be predators, he sought the vulnerable, the weak, 407 00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:49,440 Speaker 1: people who were already in some form of compromise. Circumstance, 408 00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:52,199 Speaker 1: people who in a way were living halfway off the 409 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: grid already, And like other abusers or serial murderers, he 410 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:02,639 Speaker 1: was a cow and he's just too pathetic to prey 411 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,920 Speaker 1: on anyone else. I mean, there's a common pattern because frankly, 412 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:09,960 Speaker 1: it works. It's time tested, tried and true. If you 413 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,680 Speaker 1: want to get away with something, you find the vulnerable 414 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 1: members of a society, and people who knew his victims, 415 00:28:18,880 --> 00:28:22,520 Speaker 1: who could have been witnesses, could have corroborated information, maybe 416 00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: helped organize a search. They would also tend to be 417 00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:29,000 Speaker 1: less likely to go to the police. Police would be 418 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 1: less likely to follow up on the assault or death 419 00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: of someone who had already been in and out of 420 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: the system on their own unrelated criminal charges. 421 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:42,720 Speaker 2: And even if those people went to trial, as Samuel 422 00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: Little experienced, perhaps a jury isn't going to believe. 423 00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:51,200 Speaker 1: Them, right, right, Like I can tell that person is 424 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: a druggy, right, and so did they remember something or 425 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: did someone offer them drugs to say this? You know 426 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 1: what I mean? And still that's also prejudice. Aside, in 427 00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: many cases, juries might feel that they are exercising critical 428 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 1: thinking by doing that. 429 00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,880 Speaker 2: You know, don't we all think we're criticizing critical thinking. 430 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: We're all to some degree assured that we're the smartest 431 00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: person in the room. 432 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:19,640 Speaker 2: No, that's that's me, Is that you? Yeah, yeah, Remember 433 00:29:19,680 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: I'm I'm the one, so please don't I'm not being 434 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:25,440 Speaker 2: serious at all in anything. 435 00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,200 Speaker 1: So, uh, well, I think you're top notch. I would 436 00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: vote for you. 437 00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:33,800 Speaker 2: Well, I certainly don't, and I would not. So there 438 00:29:33,840 --> 00:29:39,120 Speaker 2: we go. What's the opposite of a narcissist a human being? 439 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:42,600 Speaker 2: Cave sad guy? That's me. 440 00:29:44,080 --> 00:29:51,080 Speaker 1: So so in other cases, the bodies when they're you know, 441 00:29:51,120 --> 00:29:53,440 Speaker 1: of course there was some sort of investigation, but bodies 442 00:29:53,440 --> 00:29:57,200 Speaker 1: could be unidentified. You might not find any ID, you 443 00:29:57,280 --> 00:29:59,480 Speaker 1: might not find a record of them in terms of 444 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:05,680 Speaker 1: fingerprint or anything in the system. And Little tended to 445 00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: stun or knock out his victims before he strangled them. 446 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,680 Speaker 1: He was a strangler and because of this, there were 447 00:30:12,680 --> 00:30:16,040 Speaker 1: no stab marks, There were no bullet wounds, which meant 448 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:19,720 Speaker 1: that authorities could misidentify the cause of death. If you 449 00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:23,760 Speaker 1: see someone who hasn't been stabbed or shot, there's no 450 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: head trauma something like that, then you you also see 451 00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: perhaps narcotics of some sort in their system. You could 452 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:37,360 Speaker 1: say with reasonable validity that this was a drug overdose, 453 00:30:37,440 --> 00:30:40,800 Speaker 1: and then if you wanted, you could explain away the 454 00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:45,120 Speaker 1: bruises by saying life on the streets is an ugly 455 00:30:45,200 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: dangerous thing. 456 00:30:46,200 --> 00:30:50,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a hard truth there. Just what hard narcotics 457 00:30:50,480 --> 00:30:54,240 Speaker 2: and a difficult life does to the body in appearance, 458 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:57,880 Speaker 2: and how that could be mistaken. You're right, well, and 459 00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 2: it's also the third thing here that we have mentioned 460 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: is that many of his attacks and homicides occurred before 461 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 2: really DNA profiling was a thing where there would be 462 00:31:10,440 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 2: databases across each state and there would be a federal 463 00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 2: database where his if his DNA was found on one scene, 464 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 2: it could just be checked right, you know, throughout So 465 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,720 Speaker 2: a lot of times evidence wasn't available that could provide 466 00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:27,640 Speaker 2: really a clear link to him. Again, you've got witnesses 467 00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:30,160 Speaker 2: maybe that are in the area, who are saying he's somewhere. 468 00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:33,000 Speaker 2: You think you may have got a hit somewhere, or 469 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,840 Speaker 2: you do end up getting a DNA hit like the 470 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 2: previous occurrence that we talked about at the top of 471 00:31:38,120 --> 00:31:40,600 Speaker 2: the show, where it just gets linked to this one 472 00:31:40,720 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: thing in this one case in this one state or 473 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,080 Speaker 2: maybe even county. 474 00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,880 Speaker 1: Right, absolutely, and so again to be clear, we're not 475 00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:52,080 Speaker 1: saying law enforcement was doing a bad job. No, we're 476 00:31:52,120 --> 00:31:55,520 Speaker 1: saying that these tools were not available over the course 477 00:31:55,520 --> 00:32:00,480 Speaker 1: of this long and bloody career. Another factor, the fourth here, 478 00:32:00,560 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: is that Little, as we said, shared the fringe with 479 00:32:03,520 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: his victims. He was a known transient. He had a 480 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,960 Speaker 1: rap sheet that was quickly becoming a novel, and it 481 00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: was for largely petty crime violent assault aside. A lot 482 00:32:14,120 --> 00:32:18,920 Speaker 1: of the bulk of his charges were for things like shoplifting, fraud, theft, 483 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:23,160 Speaker 1: so authorities were often glad to get him booted to 484 00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,440 Speaker 1: get out of here. He's out of here, instead of 485 00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:30,000 Speaker 1: digging further into his murky past. And it is important, 486 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:32,720 Speaker 1: it's crucial to remember that he would have been caught 487 00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 1: gears or even decades earlier, had DNA testing been available. 488 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:41,240 Speaker 2: Yeah, you're absolutely right. And there's another factor here. We're 489 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: talking about his transience and how he's sharing the fringe 490 00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:49,720 Speaker 2: with his victims. Remember that the people living on fringes 491 00:32:49,800 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 2: in local areas maybe are not so transient. Who aren't 492 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,360 Speaker 2: just you know, traveling around as much as Little was 493 00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:02,280 Speaker 2: where the people he's interacting with maybe just don't know 494 00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:04,520 Speaker 2: who he is he's just new in an area, and 495 00:33:04,640 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 2: let's say he attacks somebody pretty pretty soon after arriving 496 00:33:08,680 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 2: in an area and then just disappears to go somewhere else. 497 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 2: Every time, it's not just law enforcement that he is 498 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 2: presenting himself anew to, it's everybody and every place that 499 00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 2: he's traveling to across the country. 500 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and let's consider also, you know, there's there's more 501 00:33:26,680 --> 00:33:33,360 Speaker 1: than a little bit of institutionalized racism, whether implicit, explicit, conscious, 502 00:33:33,480 --> 00:33:36,960 Speaker 1: or subconscious that says, you know, beyond the lookout for 503 00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: unidentified black mail. 504 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,320 Speaker 2: Did we mention that he's black at any time in 505 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 2: this episode? 506 00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:45,360 Speaker 1: But well, no, I don't think we did. 507 00:33:45,480 --> 00:33:51,520 Speaker 2: No. Yeah, I think there's a I mean, the statistics 508 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 2: varied out that serial killers in general, and it's not 509 00:33:55,960 --> 00:34:02,880 Speaker 2: always are a white male. Apprehended serial killers are white males. Yes, 510 00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:06,520 Speaker 2: I mean that's just what we've seen from the statistics 511 00:34:06,560 --> 00:34:09,960 Speaker 2: after studying it over all these episodes here and speaking 512 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:14,640 Speaker 2: with professionals over the course of several different podcasts. Yeah, 513 00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:19,840 Speaker 2: Samuel Little certainly stands out because of his the number 514 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 2: of people that he's attacked, because of who he is, 515 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,080 Speaker 2: and I mean, there's so many things and because of 516 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:28,320 Speaker 2: the demographics. Yeah, the demographics alone. 517 00:34:28,520 --> 00:34:35,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, I believe. Another example would maybe be Lonnie David Franklin, 518 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 1: also known as the grim Sleeper. Yeah, but Franklin at 519 00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: this point is known for at least ten murders, not 520 00:34:44,920 --> 00:34:45,640 Speaker 1: ninety three. 521 00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:48,319 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, or like Wayne Williams. 522 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,600 Speaker 1: Or Wayne Williams Yeah, or. 523 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 2: The DC Snipers, which they're not serial killers necessarily, they're 524 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 2: spree killers. 525 00:34:54,280 --> 00:34:56,880 Speaker 1: Well, and you know, you and I may have slightly 526 00:34:56,880 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: different opinions about the Wayne Williams case. I don't think 527 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,320 Speaker 1: we do, but if you would like to, well, is 528 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:09,279 Speaker 1: your opinion that he probably did kill quite a number 529 00:35:09,360 --> 00:35:11,640 Speaker 1: of them, but there are several on the list that 530 00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: he almost certainly did not kill my opinion, in the 531 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: legal fact as they was convicted of two murders that 532 00:35:18,280 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: do not fit the demographics of the victims of the 533 00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:23,040 Speaker 1: rest of the Atlanta child murders. 534 00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:25,319 Speaker 2: Okay, sounds good. 535 00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:27,840 Speaker 1: I mean that's just the fact, that's what he's convicted. 536 00:35:27,480 --> 00:35:29,720 Speaker 2: Of, right, I mean, yes, that's the truth. 537 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:35,399 Speaker 1: But yes, I'm not here to defend him in any way. 538 00:35:35,600 --> 00:35:38,040 Speaker 2: No, I get it. That's what the whole show was about. 539 00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:40,840 Speaker 2: So that's the whole point. I think over time after 540 00:35:41,600 --> 00:35:49,759 Speaker 2: enough interaction, like you know, secondhand interaction with him directly. Mmmmm. 541 00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:53,080 Speaker 1: So if you want Douglas, if you want to learn 542 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:57,160 Speaker 1: more about what we're talking about, check out check out 543 00:35:57,200 --> 00:36:01,799 Speaker 1: Matt's show that he creates my collaboration, which did you. 544 00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,680 Speaker 2: Know, Yeah, yeah, but it's not my show, that's Payne 545 00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:05,719 Speaker 2: Lindsay's show. 546 00:36:05,800 --> 00:36:08,120 Speaker 1: Okay, Well, check out the show Matt and Paine did 547 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 1: called Atlanta Monster, and check out the follow up which 548 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: is very much Matt's show he does a lovely job 549 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:16,200 Speaker 1: on called Zodiac. 550 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's just because we're here and he knows 551 00:36:19,280 --> 00:36:22,400 Speaker 2: when this comes out. Okay, the third season will be 552 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:23,680 Speaker 2: available in January. 553 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:26,480 Speaker 1: Any spoilers for the audience. 554 00:36:27,000 --> 00:36:31,799 Speaker 2: We mentioned the the subject that it's about previous to 555 00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 2: this moment within this podcast. 556 00:36:33,760 --> 00:36:36,200 Speaker 1: There we go. I like that spoiler a lot, and 557 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: I gotta say I love a good long form true 558 00:36:40,400 --> 00:36:43,839 Speaker 1: crime narrative. I'd love to work on one someday. I 559 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,160 Speaker 1: think that if you are I hesitate to say, a 560 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,040 Speaker 1: fan of true crime, but if you are interested in 561 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:53,719 Speaker 1: this and you want to hear top notch research and 562 00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:59,759 Speaker 1: just a masterfully done show, then check out The Monsters 563 00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,040 Speaker 1: The first two seasons are already out. I believe season 564 00:37:04,040 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: two is ongoing too, right. 565 00:37:06,120 --> 00:37:09,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm all Atlanta Monster and does Zodiac Killer both 566 00:37:09,920 --> 00:37:12,879 Speaker 2: have bonus content at some point coming out, and they 567 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:14,680 Speaker 2: always will. They will have something. 568 00:37:14,920 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: Oh fantastic, Yes, do check them out. Let us know 569 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:18,239 Speaker 1: what you think. 570 00:37:18,480 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 2: You mentioned something, you said long form true crime, and 571 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,000 Speaker 2: now I just want to see long form true crime improv. 572 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,040 Speaker 2: I want to see that, Like what is that? What 573 00:37:29,160 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 2: is long form true crime improv? Comedic improv or like 574 00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:37,000 Speaker 2: long long form true improv crime. 575 00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:41,400 Speaker 1: Oh well, for people who've been to some of my shows, 576 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:43,560 Speaker 1: they would say, any improv I do as a crime. 577 00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:45,640 Speaker 1: Oh yes, that's a good taste. 578 00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 2: Disagree. While we're patting each other back, you're an excellent improviser, 579 00:37:49,920 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 2: very kind. So numerous times. 580 00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:56,360 Speaker 1: We're hoping to delay a little bit of the darkness 581 00:37:56,360 --> 00:38:01,759 Speaker 1: here because we're talking about some very ugh, some very 582 00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:04,800 Speaker 1: troubling things, both with the system in which these crimes 583 00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:08,439 Speaker 1: occur and with the individual and with what this means 584 00:38:08,480 --> 00:38:12,720 Speaker 1: for the future. Because the last factor and why Little 585 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,520 Speaker 1: would get away for so long, why he thought he 586 00:38:14,560 --> 00:38:17,520 Speaker 1: would get away for so long, is simply this. He 587 00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:24,000 Speaker 1: seemed absolutely fine, with going down for a drug possession, burglary, shoplifting, 588 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,440 Speaker 1: dui rap or something like that. But he always fought 589 00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: murder charges and for a long time, as you heard 590 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:35,360 Speaker 1: in our recounting of this chronology, he came away clean. 591 00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:38,399 Speaker 1: In the nineteen eighties, as we said, he was charged 592 00:38:38,440 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: with killing women in two different states, but he escaped 593 00:38:42,520 --> 00:38:46,680 Speaker 1: indictment in Mississippi, and he escaped conviction in Florida. And 594 00:38:46,840 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 1: even after being convicted of three murders in California that 595 00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:54,920 Speaker 1: was in twenty fourteen, remember those nineteen eighties cold cases, 596 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 1: he refused to admit to the crimes that dated back 597 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,839 Speaker 1: to the nineteen eighties. It was, as you said, Matt, 598 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:05,160 Speaker 1: only when he realized this would be his forever that 599 00:39:05,239 --> 00:39:09,040 Speaker 1: he decided to make these confessions. 600 00:39:09,200 --> 00:39:11,720 Speaker 2: And then perhaps some fame was also involved. 601 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 1: Right, And this leads us to something that I like 602 00:39:13,760 --> 00:39:19,280 Speaker 1: to call the Lucas problem. So what makes Samuel little 603 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:25,479 Speaker 1: different from these criminals? I mean, there's scum whatever, these 604 00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:30,160 Speaker 1: people who say that they have murdered a lot of 605 00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:35,360 Speaker 1: other binniscent people. It's it's no secret that he's not 606 00:39:35,520 --> 00:39:38,840 Speaker 1: unique in this kind of confession. There's, of course, of 607 00:39:38,840 --> 00:39:41,319 Speaker 1: the famous case of Henry Lee Lucas, for whom the 608 00:39:41,440 --> 00:39:44,560 Speaker 1: Lucas Problem is named. Henry Lee Lucas would go on 609 00:39:44,680 --> 00:39:46,880 Speaker 1: to confess to over three hundred murders. 610 00:39:47,120 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 2: He said that he. 611 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:51,600 Speaker 1: And his compatriototist tool were in the service of something 612 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:54,399 Speaker 1: called the Hand of Death, which we I think did 613 00:39:54,400 --> 00:39:54,960 Speaker 1: an episode. 614 00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:57,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, four pie, Yeah, name for it. 615 00:39:57,920 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 1: I guess the four pie idea did have a little 616 00:40:00,960 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 1: bit more sand to it. 617 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 618 00:40:02,480 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 1: Yeah, that they're related, they're okay, yah yeah yeah. Oh man, 619 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: I still think about that one me too. Well, Okay, 620 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: So here's the Lucas problem. Simply put its this. So, 621 00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,920 Speaker 1: like most serial killers, again, Lucas is of below average intelligence. 622 00:40:22,320 --> 00:40:26,120 Speaker 1: He's also easily manipulated by law enforcement, and he's going 623 00:40:26,160 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: to be in jail like little for the rest of 624 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:29,120 Speaker 1: his life. 625 00:40:29,200 --> 00:40:30,120 Speaker 2: Nothing he can do. 626 00:40:30,080 --> 00:40:35,480 Speaker 1: Game, set and match. This is this is maybe not 627 00:40:36,080 --> 00:40:39,279 Speaker 1: officially true. This is not admitted by a lot of 628 00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,760 Speaker 1: law enforcement, especially people involved directly with the Lucas case. 629 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,040 Speaker 1: But the fact of the matter is that evidence overwhelmingly 630 00:40:47,080 --> 00:40:52,520 Speaker 1: suggests unscrupulous law officers used Henry Lee Lucas to close 631 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: out cold cases. 632 00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,319 Speaker 2: And you know about this. We talked about this, Well, yeah, 633 00:40:57,320 --> 00:41:00,560 Speaker 2: I mean that that's the thing. He could and would 634 00:41:01,160 --> 00:41:04,160 Speaker 2: straight up confess to crimes, even if it's not within 635 00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 2: the realm of possibility that he could physically be in 636 00:41:07,719 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 2: the location where a homicide occurred, Like there's no way 637 00:41:12,120 --> 00:41:14,120 Speaker 2: he could have been in that scene, but he would 638 00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:17,960 Speaker 2: do that in exchange for little things here and there 639 00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:22,160 Speaker 2: perks if you will within the prison system. And so 640 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:24,319 Speaker 2: you know, I'll sure, I'll confess to that crime if 641 00:41:24,320 --> 00:41:26,879 Speaker 2: you get me x right right. 642 00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:30,880 Speaker 1: And you know, there are a thousand ways to message 643 00:41:30,920 --> 00:41:34,760 Speaker 1: that or speak about it, such that if a tape 644 00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:39,080 Speaker 1: were played back, someone in law enforcement could say, well, 645 00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,600 Speaker 1: we didn't tell him to say it. 646 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,400 Speaker 2: He wasn't coerced. He just stated that. 647 00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:49,280 Speaker 1: You know, Like, so, what can you tell me about 648 00:41:49,680 --> 00:41:51,560 Speaker 1: you know, I'm just making this up, but like, what 649 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:56,080 Speaker 1: can you tell me about Linda Alvarez in you know, 650 00:41:57,360 --> 00:41:59,799 Speaker 1: Cape Canaveral, Florida in insert time. 651 00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,080 Speaker 2: Sorry Linda for using your name, but we'll continue here. 652 00:42:03,120 --> 00:42:03,800 Speaker 2: It's just fictional. 653 00:42:03,880 --> 00:42:05,440 Speaker 1: This is not a real Lenda. It's not based on 654 00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:09,399 Speaker 1: real Linda. But and while they're saying it, and maybe 655 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,080 Speaker 1: they're just recording audio, they slide across a folder or 656 00:42:13,320 --> 00:42:16,160 Speaker 1: a jacket with the facts of the case in there, 657 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,520 Speaker 1: and on top of that, there's like a pack of cigarettes. Yeah, 658 00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: it's that simple. It is that simple for that kind 659 00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:23,320 Speaker 1: of thing to occur. 660 00:42:23,560 --> 00:42:27,200 Speaker 2: You should have seen how Ben was slowly pushing this 661 00:42:27,680 --> 00:42:30,319 Speaker 2: made up folder towards me as he was explaining it 662 00:42:30,360 --> 00:42:33,320 Speaker 2: to me and maintaining eye contact. It was awesome. 663 00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:36,640 Speaker 1: Well, I hope that we are never in a situation 664 00:42:36,880 --> 00:42:40,240 Speaker 1: like that where we have to bribe or be bribed 665 00:42:40,280 --> 00:42:42,840 Speaker 1: with cigarettes to confess the murders we didn't commit. But 666 00:42:42,880 --> 00:42:45,640 Speaker 1: that is okay. So that's the Lucas problem. You cannot 667 00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:50,319 Speaker 1: believe these untrustworthy people, especially when they're incentivized to lie. 668 00:42:50,880 --> 00:42:53,200 Speaker 1: But Little's case is different. 669 00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,319 Speaker 2: Why it really has to do with the amount of 670 00:42:56,360 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: information and detail that he was able to provide, and 671 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,239 Speaker 2: he was doing it unprompted by law enforcement. He was 672 00:43:03,280 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 2: doing doing it for this individual Holland who showed up 673 00:43:07,200 --> 00:43:10,520 Speaker 2: at his prison looking for one specific or answers to 674 00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:16,320 Speaker 2: one specific case. And just the number of crime scenes 675 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 2: that he can give details about, very specific stuff, and 676 00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:23,280 Speaker 2: a lot of this, a lot of these details weren't 677 00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:29,200 Speaker 2: a part of the public facing investigation, right where reporters 678 00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,839 Speaker 2: didn't weren't privy to a lot of the information that 679 00:43:32,440 --> 00:43:33,960 Speaker 2: somehow Samuel Little knows. 680 00:43:34,600 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: Yeah, and this is this is a brilliant thing that 681 00:43:38,239 --> 00:43:42,880 Speaker 1: law enforcement has learned to do because it gives you 682 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:46,560 Speaker 1: a way to understand. The weird thing is that there 683 00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:51,160 Speaker 1: there are false confessions all the time, especially if something 684 00:43:51,200 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: reaches public panic level, like during during the Sun of 685 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,759 Speaker 1: Sam murders. How many people wrote in just because they 686 00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,120 Speaker 1: mistook their ideas for clever pranks. They would write in 687 00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:06,399 Speaker 1: and say, I'm not a Sam killing, but they don't 688 00:44:06,400 --> 00:44:10,120 Speaker 1: know anything that hasn't been released through the papers yet. 689 00:44:10,239 --> 00:44:14,120 Speaker 2: It's particularly difficult when there's a lot of press or 690 00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:19,280 Speaker 2: leaks have occurred exactly exactly, so he passes that test. 691 00:44:19,360 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 1: He knows stuff that has not been released to the 692 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:24,560 Speaker 1: public or has not at the very least not been 693 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:29,640 Speaker 1: widely circulated, and the information provided has been corroborated in 694 00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:33,880 Speaker 1: multiple cases. Again, the thing that this is just maybe 695 00:44:34,040 --> 00:44:36,560 Speaker 1: one person's opinion. But the thing that bothers me the 696 00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,240 Speaker 1: most about this is that you can go on YouTube. 697 00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 1: You can see the FBI interviewing Samuel Little, and you 698 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:47,759 Speaker 1: can see his warm, grandfatherly or a vuncular I guess, 699 00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,080 Speaker 1: depending on how old you are. His tone as he 700 00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:55,480 Speaker 1: recalls the specifics of these murders. He is never going 701 00:44:55,600 --> 00:45:00,080 Speaker 1: to leave prison, not while he's alive. He has nothing 702 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,600 Speaker 1: left to lose, and likely that media attention is attractive 703 00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:08,360 Speaker 1: to him, as well as the opportunity to recount and 704 00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:14,000 Speaker 1: therefore relive his crime. There is one issue with Little's recollection. 705 00:45:14,160 --> 00:45:16,800 Speaker 1: It is his issue with chronology. As you said, Matt, 706 00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:22,120 Speaker 1: he is incredibly lucid when it comes to remembering details 707 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:28,480 Speaker 1: of victims, locations, you know, their appearances, the order of 708 00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:33,600 Speaker 1: operations of these atrocious acts. But he's bad at remembering 709 00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:39,000 Speaker 1: specific dates. And to be honest, I don't think that 710 00:45:39,040 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 1: means he's making it up, and I don't think it 711 00:45:40,760 --> 00:45:43,319 Speaker 1: means it should be dismissed. Like most people have a 712 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:44,640 Speaker 1: problem with specific dates. 713 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:48,520 Speaker 2: Oh sure, and especially when you're traveling as much or 714 00:45:48,600 --> 00:45:52,200 Speaker 2: traveled as much as he has to all these varying places. 715 00:45:52,480 --> 00:45:54,359 Speaker 1: Add to that the years of heavy drug use. 716 00:45:55,040 --> 00:45:55,600 Speaker 2: Yeah. 717 00:45:55,960 --> 00:46:00,759 Speaker 1: So this leads us to some implications that we may 718 00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 1: have mentioned at the top of the show. First, there 719 00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:07,120 Speaker 1: is more to come. This tale has not concluded. Of 720 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:10,520 Speaker 1: the ninety plus murders Little list confessed to from nineteen 721 00:46:10,520 --> 00:46:15,360 Speaker 1: seventy two thousand and five. The FBI currently has solidly 722 00:46:15,400 --> 00:46:18,719 Speaker 1: connected him to at least fifty wow that we know of. 723 00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:21,320 Speaker 1: That doesn't include murders that he may not have confessed 724 00:46:21,320 --> 00:46:25,080 Speaker 1: to yet, nor does it include other connected murders the 725 00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,400 Speaker 1: FBI may have yet to publicly confirm. Right, Yeah, and 726 00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,479 Speaker 1: there may be more cases like this on the way. 727 00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:33,400 Speaker 1: I don't know if you've heard about this. A crime 728 00:46:33,440 --> 00:46:37,319 Speaker 1: scene DNA company just acquired the database that was used 729 00:46:37,360 --> 00:46:41,560 Speaker 1: to apprehend the Golden State Killer, which means that now. 730 00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:44,919 Speaker 2: Is that wait, are they using the jed match thing? 731 00:46:45,000 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 2: Is that what it's talking about? I believe so yeah, whoa, 732 00:46:49,280 --> 00:46:52,480 Speaker 2: it is jed matched. Oh my gosh. That is a 733 00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:55,280 Speaker 2: powerful tool. Whoa. 734 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:58,239 Speaker 1: And now it's going to be used specifically by this 735 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,680 Speaker 1: crime scene DNA friends company or profiling company Holy mackerel. 736 00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,520 Speaker 1: So there may be more on the way. But we're 737 00:47:05,600 --> 00:47:11,440 Speaker 1: also in a ticking clock situation because as we record this, 738 00:47:11,600 --> 00:47:14,400 Speaker 1: Samuel Little is seventy nine years old. He is in 739 00:47:14,600 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: bad health. He will stay in prison in Texas until 740 00:47:18,160 --> 00:47:21,880 Speaker 1: his death. So the goal becomes one of identifying his 741 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:25,520 Speaker 1: victims and providing closure and justice in these unsolved cases 742 00:47:25,760 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: that we're formerly going to be relegated to the Cold 743 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:34,520 Speaker 1: Case Files VCaP, which we mentioned earlier. Palazzolo's organization is 744 00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:37,200 Speaker 1: hoping this case will serve as a reminder to every 745 00:47:37,280 --> 00:47:42,439 Speaker 1: jurisdiction of the importance of consistent crime reporting and inter 746 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:52,279 Speaker 1: departmental interagency communication. Absolutely, and that's our classic episode for 747 00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:54,879 Speaker 1: this evening. We can't wait to hear your thoughts. 748 00:47:54,960 --> 00:47:56,080 Speaker 2: That's right, let us know what you think. 749 00:47:56,080 --> 00:47:58,239 Speaker 1: You can reach you to the AMI Conspiracy Stuff where 750 00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:02,680 Speaker 1: we exist on Facebook and YouTube, on Instagram and TikTok 751 00:48:02,719 --> 00:48:03,799 Speaker 1: or Conspiracy Stuff Show. 752 00:48:03,920 --> 00:48:06,120 Speaker 2: If you want to call us dial one eight three 753 00:48:06,280 --> 00:48:11,400 Speaker 2: three STDWYTK. That's our voicemail system. You've got three minutes, 754 00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:13,640 Speaker 2: give yourself a cool nickname and let us know if 755 00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,759 Speaker 2: we can use your name and message on the air. 756 00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:17,640 Speaker 2: If you got more to say than can fit in 757 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,479 Speaker 2: that voicemail, why not instead send us a good old 758 00:48:20,480 --> 00:48:21,280 Speaker 2: fashioned email. 759 00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:24,400 Speaker 1: We are the entities to read every single piece of 760 00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,880 Speaker 1: correspondence we receive. Be aware, yet not afraid. Sometimes the 761 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:51,919 Speaker 1: void writes back conspiracy at iHeartRadio dot com. 762 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:54,200 Speaker 2: Stuff they don't want you to know is a production 763 00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:58,520 Speaker 2: of iHeartRadio. 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