Speaker 1: So why do we do We do because we love
Speaker 1: the rice. It's part of our part of our heritage,
Speaker 1: our legacy, and besides that, it's just a damn good rice. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it is. Welcome back to Point of Origin, the podcast
Speaker 1: about the world of food from around the world. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Steven Sadderfield today on Point of Origin, Rice
Speaker 1: and Resilience Asia to California, Africa to South Carolina, from
Speaker 1: the Areza glab Arima of West Africa to the Areza
Speaker 1: Sativa and Eastern Asia. Humans across the world and lifetimes
Speaker 1: are all bound to the story of rice. Our next
Speaker 1: guest is a very good friend of mine, Jasmine Lee,
Speaker 1: who is a writer and a cook based in Queens
Speaker 1: but for this particular story she is in californ Cornia. Jasmine,
Speaker 1: thank you for joining us today on Point of Origin podcast.
Speaker 1: Hey Steven, thanks for having me. Of course, so, Jasmine,
Speaker 1: um for your forthcoming story in Whetstone, you visited a
Speaker 1: really remarkable farm in California called Coda Farms, a company
Speaker 1: that has been producing and harvesting Japanese rice for many,
Speaker 1: many years. Can you tell us about this farm and
Speaker 1: what you observed when you win? Yeah, so I visited
Speaker 1: Robin Coda, who is one of the co owners of
Speaker 1: Coda Farms with her brother Roth. I'm sitting here with
Speaker 1: Robin Coda. Hi, Robin, Hello, Jasmine. So I am Sancee,
Speaker 1: Japanese American third generation born raised in California, as were
Speaker 1: my parents, and like a lot of immigrants to California,
Speaker 1: they my my grandparents eventually came around to agriculture and
Speaker 1: so Coat of Farms is located in South Dost Palace
Speaker 1: in the Central Valley in California, which is based in
Speaker 1: the southwest corner of Merced County in the Central Valley
Speaker 1: of California. Central Valley, California compasses sort of paradoxically, the
Speaker 1: Sacramento Valley and the San Joaquin Valley. The geographical division
Speaker 1: between those two is literally the Sacramento River and the
Speaker 1: Delta area. So there we are in is the San
Speaker 1: Joaquine Valley. I had a really just amazing time hanging
Speaker 1: out with Robin. You know, we we talked about a
Speaker 1: lot of things. We got into the sort of like
Speaker 1: what the lamp looks like when her grandfather arrived, and
Speaker 1: essentially like why her family settled in the Central Valley
Speaker 1: as opposed to up in the Sacramento region where really
Speaker 1: that is where the heart of you know, rice growing
Speaker 1: is on the West coast. But Robin is such an
Speaker 1: amazing person. Um, she's such a character. And so she's
Speaker 1: the granddaughter of Casa Borrow Coda, who was the founder
Speaker 1: of the farm. And when you meet Robin, you're just
Speaker 1: immediately struck by her style, her sense of style. Um,
Speaker 1: she has this really just gorgeous like mane of long
Speaker 1: fotton pepper hair that she throws up into this messy bun.
Speaker 1: You know, when I met her on the farm that morning,
Speaker 1: she was wearing this gorgeous you know, blue um shirt
Speaker 1: dress that went down to her ankles, and we were
Speaker 1: like climbing through the field. I was obviously in she
Speaker 1: was just so like, um, just elegantly climbing through the
Speaker 1: fields and like sandals and this gorgeous dress. We go
Speaker 1: into her into this little farmhouse just to talk and
Speaker 1: she was making me kanji and you know when you
Speaker 1: walk into the house, you're you're just immediately also struck
Speaker 1: by just really incredible antique furniture pieces and like like
Speaker 1: antique art around the house. So yeah, you just you
Speaker 1: really get a sense that like Robin is sort of
Speaker 1: like on another tip, So, our paternal grandfather, Casavakota, started
Speaker 1: farming rice in the late nineteen tents in the sacrament
Speaker 1: Mental Valley north of Sacramento, which has been traditionally historically
Speaker 1: the stronghold of the rice industry in California, dating back
Speaker 1: to the eighteen hundreds. So we start farming rice, and
Speaker 1: my grandfather eventually move the headquarters of the business down
Speaker 1: to where we are today, which is about the same
Speaker 1: latitude as Monterey, but in land off five in the
Speaker 1: Central Valley. So it's not This is definitely not rice
Speaker 1: farming ground zero for California. We're an oddball. We're kind
Speaker 1: of south. So, Jasmine, you mentioned that you were interested
Speaker 1: in this, but what brought you to want to learn
Speaker 1: more about rice and to go make this trip? I
Speaker 1: wanted to write about Coat of Farms and their and
Speaker 1: their heirloom variety of organic rice because I'm interested in
Speaker 1: expanding this. Notion of tirre, which in its etymology refers
Speaker 1: literally to the land, is a term that some might
Speaker 1: associate with exclusive wine production in France, for example, but
Speaker 1: it can be used to describe the overall growing conditions
Speaker 1: or environmental factors of any given region in the world
Speaker 1: that are then expressed through specific types of crops like
Speaker 1: grapes um or other cultivars and in this case ingrains
Speaker 1: like rice. And so I I wanted to ask whether
Speaker 1: we could talk about to war in the US without
Speaker 1: talking about the history and politics um of land use
Speaker 1: in this country, which in the case of code of
Speaker 1: farms and and their cocohoa rose heirloom rice um, those
Speaker 1: things are inextricably tied. And so in other words, cocoa
Speaker 1: rose airlooe rice is an expression of the land it
Speaker 1: was grown on and the political and historical experience and
Speaker 1: trauma and perseverance of the family who worked that land.
Speaker 1: And so I think cocoa rose for me is just
Speaker 1: the start of thinking more meaningfully about the origins of
Speaker 1: food and land use and labor in the US. And
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a second generation ABC or American born
Speaker 1: Chinese who who was born and raised in the Bay Area,
Speaker 1: and you know, my diet has always revolved around rice,
Speaker 1: and in fact, my ancestors were actually rice farmers and
Speaker 1: merchants in Hong Kong. But anyway, I never really gave
Speaker 1: too much thought about where my rice comes from because
Speaker 1: it's really just so ubiquitous and so quotitian and and
Speaker 1: I think that this is true for most of us.
Speaker 1: But over the last few years, as I've been like
Speaker 1: going home and visiting California, I started noticing this really
Speaker 1: just beautiful name that kept coming up on menus, which
Speaker 1: was cocahoa rose. And it's the house rice for these
Speaker 1: locally and seasonally focused restaurants. And that was, you know,
Speaker 1: really the first time I had seen rice named so
Speaker 1: specifically on menus. And not only that, it's just like
Speaker 1: really delicious stuff. So Code of Farms they grow a
Speaker 1: number of things, but namely they grow glutenous rice, which
Speaker 1: they used to make the Chico flower, which is something
Speaker 1: that you know if you especially if you're Asian American
Speaker 1: growing up on the West Coast, it's probably something that
Speaker 1: was in your pantry. Um. They also grow this really
Speaker 1: incredible variety of heirloom grain rice, which is what I
Speaker 1: was interested in learning more about, called cocahoa rose. So
Speaker 1: one of the things my grandfad liked to do was
Speaker 1: he had an artistic side and consider himself somewhat of
Speaker 1: a creative type. And what he did was create he
Speaker 1: wanted to create trademarks brands for his own products. So
Speaker 1: after the war, he wanted to grow a strand of
Speaker 1: rice that was proprietary. So to that end, he brought
Speaker 1: in one of the preeminent rice breeders in the country
Speaker 1: that at that time, a gentleman name Hughes Williams. And
Speaker 1: Hughes Williams was unusual that obviously was Caucasian, and he
Speaker 1: was willing to come work for our family here in California.
Speaker 1: I mean, there was still so much strong anti agent
Speaker 1: sentiments that that was that was really unusual. So Hugh
Speaker 1: wasn't came here, and in the course of approximately ten years,
Speaker 1: bread and kept cross breeding and crossbreeding and created a
Speaker 1: modern cultivar which was very very to us good tasting
Speaker 1: and has a beautiful aroma, good cooking qualities, and was just,
Speaker 1: you know, we thought a winner. So for instance, people
Speaker 1: like know the nomber cal rose. Cal rose is just
Speaker 1: it refers to a type of very generic, high yielding,
Speaker 1: fast maturing sort of bland medium grain. Cocohole rose was
Speaker 1: essentially a premium medium grain, meaning it tasted better. It
Speaker 1: just it has better appearance, better cooking quality. Is just
Speaker 1: a better grain altogether. We have primarily specialized in Japanese
Speaker 1: style rice or Japonica, Japonica being the classification that covers
Speaker 1: short grain to medium grain sticky glutinous rices. So we
Speaker 1: do coca hole rose, which is a medium grain premium
Speaker 1: medium grain that is a table rice what we would
Speaker 1: use essentially for sushi or your everyday rice. So cocoa
Speaker 1: rose is not a high yield crop. No, I mean
Speaker 1: well back in the back in the nine fifties, and
Speaker 1: by the time it was commercially introduced by the early
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, I think sixty two. Formally at that time
Speaker 1: it would have been considered a modern cultivar. But but
Speaker 1: today's standards, it's it's certainly not what our family is
Speaker 1: going to retire on the fact of the matter is
Speaker 1: that rice breeding drivers in the US for so long
Speaker 1: have been oriented to prioritize just literally high yield, fast
Speaker 1: growing cultivars that all the characteristics of a good eating
Speaker 1: rice have literally dissipated to the point where rice in
Speaker 1: the U s now is just largely thought of it
Speaker 1: as a bland commodity, something we slap something else on
Speaker 1: top of. Rice has lost its own merits. So what
Speaker 1: we have preserved here what we believe. It's a rice
Speaker 1: that has outstanding characteristics and stands on its own just
Speaker 1: simply a good eating rice. For us, it literally is
Speaker 1: a tie to our past. It's a tie to our grandfather,
Speaker 1: who my brother and I were too young to interact
Speaker 1: with or no personally, but of course his history, his work,
Speaker 1: all of what he achieved, his surrounds us here on
Speaker 1: a daily basis. We're both raised here on the farm,
Speaker 1: and it's the reminders are around you literally every single day.
Speaker 1: So for what we feel, that obligation, that sense of legacy,
Speaker 1: that center of debts, we will we will never stop
Speaker 1: going Cocohoa Rose. Okay, so let's talk more specifically about
Speaker 1: this legacy that Robin is referring to. A big part
Speaker 1: of her family's story is about resiliency, but what they
Speaker 1: were responding to is an equally important thing to interrogate. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So it was really interesting for me to, as I mentioned,
Speaker 1: to kind of start to learn about this rice because
Speaker 1: it was really an entryway into learning more about out
Speaker 1: agricultural history in the United States. And so what I
Speaker 1: began to piece together and learning more about Coota farms
Speaker 1: um was more broadly the fundamental role of Asian Americans
Speaker 1: and more specifically Japanese American farmers and labors um on
Speaker 1: the development of agriculture in the US. And so as
Speaker 1: we dip into this, and I think that some people
Speaker 1: are familiar with this history, especially if you grew up
Speaker 1: on the West Coast, but you know, there was a
Speaker 1: lot of racial resentment from white folks, and you know,
Speaker 1: we really see that kind of that racial resentment just
Speaker 1: ratified through racist policies like the Chinese Exclusion Act or
Speaker 1: the Alien Land Law Act, to name a few, and
Speaker 1: then during World War Two, through the imprisonment of Japanese
Speaker 1: Americans in concentration camps across the United States. And I
Speaker 1: think most of us are familiar with this history, um,
Speaker 1: but what we often miss are the sort of economic
Speaker 1: motivations and material consequences. And there's a really great piece
Speaker 1: by Gwen Guildford that goes into what was essentially the
Speaker 1: stripping and selling of land and property from Japanese American
Speaker 1: farmers during World War two and the effects that this
Speaker 1: mass incarceration had on the food supply in the United
Speaker 1: States during that time. And so the code of family
Speaker 1: who had seen a lot of success growing and selling
Speaker 1: rice are just one example of this history. Wow, so Jasmine,
Speaker 1: I know that Kaisaboro was a skilled farmer, but prior
Speaker 1: to his generation of immigrants, what was the history and
Speaker 1: the origins of Asian rights in the US. You know,
Speaker 1: as it pertains this story, how how did rice like
Speaker 1: end up on the West coast? And you know it
Speaker 1: came because of Chinese laborers who are working on the
Speaker 1: railroad in the nineteenth century. And it's interesting because the
Speaker 1: variety of rice that we see coming out of California,
Speaker 1: which the bulk of it is Japanica, it's not the
Speaker 1: kind of rice that the Chinese were eating um or
Speaker 1: eat to this day. Speaking geographically of the rice that's
Speaker 1: that comes from mostly southern China. The irony of the
Speaker 1: rice industry in California is historically the roots are based
Speaker 1: in the Chinese labors who built our railways. For the
Speaker 1: most part, rice was very expensive and had to be
Speaker 1: all imported in from the from Asia to California to
Speaker 1: feed these labor forces. So of course, I mean they
Speaker 1: were looking for ways to economize, so one of those
Speaker 1: was to start growing rice here in California, not having
Speaker 1: to like buy it from Asia and ship it across
Speaker 1: the Pacific, so literally cost cutting. So ironically what's been
Speaker 1: grown in California is Japonica, Japanese style rice for in
Speaker 1: there for the Chinese rail workers. And you know, between
Speaker 1: you and I, since you're Chinese distant and I moved Japanese,
Speaker 1: is it Chinese and Japanese do not eat the same
Speaker 1: type of rice for the table rice, So the Japanese
Speaker 1: rail I mean, the Chinese rail workers are being fed Japonica,
Speaker 1: which is just a short grained to medium grain rice.
Speaker 1: It's a lot more sticky than what Chinese typically think
Speaker 1: of as table rice, which is long grain, lower starch,
Speaker 1: more dry and more fluffy rice. But that's that's where
Speaker 1: those roots started. And to this day California still grows
Speaker 1: predominantly Japanese style rice, whereas the rest of the country
Speaker 1: grows predominantly long grain. There is more short grain and
Speaker 1: more meaning grain being grown in other areas in this
Speaker 1: current day and age, but historically that's the way it's been.
Speaker 1: So as most Asian Americans, especially on the West Coast,
Speaker 1: are keenly aware of what is known as the Alien
Speaker 1: Land Laws, which were formalized in n and because of
Speaker 1: very strong anti Asian sentiments of that meant that Asians
Speaker 1: really were very much prejudiced against and every all kinds
Speaker 1: of daily going on, and that included landholding. So the
Speaker 1: Alien land law essentially had a short lived loophole where
Speaker 1: Asians could buy land in the name of their American
Speaker 1: born children. So that loophole, my grandfather took advantage of
Speaker 1: that started looking for land up in the area where
Speaker 1: he was least far at least hold farming, which was
Speaker 1: north of Sacramento. And because that land was very desirable
Speaker 1: and people would not sell to them, so our grandfather
Speaker 1: settled down here, bought land and just started to put
Speaker 1: down his roots, which included building a mill and all
Speaker 1: the processing to be vertically integrade so he could handle
Speaker 1: his product from start to finish. Could you tell me
Speaker 1: about what happened when your family realized that internment was
Speaker 1: like a done deal and that's where the country was headed.
Speaker 1: What happened in those days um leading up to that.
Speaker 1: My grandfather, by the early nineties and the outbreak of
Speaker 1: World War two was farming approximately ten thousand acres and
Speaker 1: was very very successful. And rice being of the cultural
Speaker 1: importance it is to the Japanese people. It just earned
Speaker 1: him this nickname of the Rice Kings. So the family
Speaker 1: was doing well, relatively affluent for that era, and when
Speaker 1: the interment was pretty much going to be a done deal,
Speaker 1: they decided that they wanted to shut down the business
Speaker 1: and hopefully keep it intact. That did not happen, so
Speaker 1: that's essentially what he started off to do. But because
Speaker 1: of because of the scale operation we suspect that caught
Speaker 1: the attention of the government. The government literally stepped in
Speaker 1: and handed them the mandate saying that they had to
Speaker 1: stay open and operate during their interment to produce fiber.
Speaker 1: So being interned in Colorado and obviously not being able
Speaker 1: to manage your business from from an internment camp, they
Speaker 1: had to sign over powered attorney to non agents. So
Speaker 1: essentially when that happened, um, the farm was just literally
Speaker 1: torn apart. Our grandfather upon his upon their release from
Speaker 1: the Machi and Sherman camp in Colorado, they drove NonStop
Speaker 1: from Colorado back to South Dolls Palace to see what
Speaker 1: had happened to the farm. And when they got here
Speaker 1: they found that the homes, the mill, the farm, and
Speaker 1: the processing plant, all of their best equipment their airplanes, livestock,
Speaker 1: everything had been sold, so there were there was no recourse.
Speaker 1: Back then you could file, you could file for for reparations,
Speaker 1: and that's what they did. But um, my grandfather did
Speaker 1: not live to see a dime of that. It dragged
Speaker 1: on till nineteen sixty five. He passed away in nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty four. And for what it was settled for, it
Speaker 1: was pennies on the dollar, did not even cover the
Speaker 1: attorney's fees. For having dragged on those many many years,
Speaker 1: it was obviously a very terrible experience. That's not to
Speaker 1: say that that's the only experience that happened, because I've
Speaker 1: told him, as I've said many times, my mother's side
Speaker 1: of the family, she was born raised in the area,
Speaker 1: and they had a very good rosary rose nursery business.
Speaker 1: They had a German American friend who took care of
Speaker 1: that business from kept an intact, managed it through the war,
Speaker 1: handed them the keys when they came back from the
Speaker 1: German council. So not everybody had the experience that my
Speaker 1: grandfather had, but we again suspect it because they were
Speaker 1: just too large and too successful and drew too much
Speaker 1: attention to themselves. So after the war, and after finding
Speaker 1: everything decimated, my grandfather, as you do, he sets up
Speaker 1: shop quarter mile down the road. Diggs is in his heel,
Speaker 1: build a new mill and starts all over again. It
Speaker 1: was also interesting, like to see Robin in this place
Speaker 1: and to talk with her about like what it means
Speaker 1: to grow up and still live on the farm. She
Speaker 1: lives there with her nine year old mother, so there
Speaker 1: are these like constant reminders of what happened to her
Speaker 1: family and just this incredible sense of grit and perseverance
Speaker 1: that her grandfather had to just like return to this
Speaker 1: place after they were imprisoned and to like, you know,
Speaker 1: rebuild again. You have been amazing as always. Thank you
Speaker 1: so much, Jasmine. I really appreciate your reporting and you
Speaker 1: sharing the story with us. Thanks for having me see
Speaker 1: the of course see soon. M h. You've been listening
Speaker 1: to Point of Origin, a podcast about the world of
Speaker 1: food worldwide today. On Point of Origin, Rice and Resilience
Speaker 1: Asia to California, Africa to South Carolina. You just heard
Speaker 1: a very moving account of the story of the Coda
Speaker 1: family farm and Robin Coda, who was continuing her grandfather's
Speaker 1: incredible legacy of perseverance. You know this story, as Jasmine said,
Speaker 1: is one that many of us know parts of, but
Speaker 1: to hear it in such personal testimony and such personal
Speaker 1: detail and Robin's own words, really just gives you a
Speaker 1: sense of how recent these atrocities were. And there's certainly
Speaker 1: no service and suppressing the details. But we also want
Speaker 1: to recognize that it is a difficult story to tell,
Speaker 1: So we are very grateful to Robin and Jasmine and
Speaker 1: their generosity and sharing this story. Thanks to you both.
Speaker 1: We're picking up in the low country of South Carolina,
Speaker 1: where in Charleston we learned that rice wasn't just an
Speaker 1: integral part of the culture, it was the culture. B. J. Dennis,
Speaker 1: the chef and scholar on Gala Gichi food Ways, joins
Speaker 1: us to discuss the regional history and distinct culture of
Speaker 1: the descendants of West Africa's Rice coast. You know, I
Speaker 1: came up as a dishwasher here and Charleston. You know,
Speaker 1: um what the college for one year, I had too
Speaker 1: much fun. Parents was like, yo, you're not staying here
Speaker 1: for free anymore. Long story short, I started working in
Speaker 1: kitchens and I went to trade school for business. I
Speaker 1: found out that I eventually I said master later I
Speaker 1: started taking culinary went from dishwasher, bus boy to line
Speaker 1: cook and you know, just kind of took off from there.
Speaker 1: Two thousand and four, I left Charleston to move to St.
Speaker 1: Thomas in the Virgin Islands because my neighbors from in
Speaker 1: Charleston were from there. That was my connection there. That's
Speaker 1: when it really hit me because they really would talk
Speaker 1: to me about us here and and as a Galachi culture,
Speaker 1: people from Jamaica, I mean Haiti St. Lucia, you know,
Speaker 1: individuals knew about this culture here. So that was opened
Speaker 1: up for me and the fact that the culture was
Speaker 1: unapologetic in the West Indies. So I came back to
Speaker 1: Charleston two thousand eight started working. Um that was when
Speaker 1: it was the crim Della crime in Charleston with Sean
Speaker 1: Brown was just taking off. You couldn't get a job
Speaker 1: in the city then, um, so I started. I was
Speaker 1: the PM kitchen manager at what is now the busiest
Speaker 1: restaurant in the city and called Fleet Landing, which is
Speaker 1: one of the classic seafood houses here, which ironically enough,
Speaker 1: is how I started off my career as a dishwasher
Speaker 1: and the seafood houses of Charleston. I wanted to go
Speaker 1: and do the you know, the French thing, the crumb
Speaker 1: della crumb. At the same time, when all our French
Speaker 1: stuff I was learning through school, all the cookbooks that
Speaker 1: ever grabbed. When I go to the store, I would
Speaker 1: go to like Bonds and Nobles. I was always searching
Speaker 1: for West African West Indian food ways that asked for
Speaker 1: food wads and I started working in restaurants throughout Charleston.
Speaker 1: Pop up scene started hitting around two thousand and twelve,
Speaker 1: two gos and thirteen and the brothers started doing representing
Speaker 1: the culture, and I was like, you know, we got
Speaker 1: some great black owned restaurants in the city, but you know,
Speaker 1: in my opinion, there's nobody's who are doing it in
Speaker 1: the purest form. You see the purest form from Land
Speaker 1: from the Sea season though you know, you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not talking about the mac and cheese and the can
Speaker 1: string beans and the can beans. I'm talking about the
Speaker 1: airline varieties that were part of our culture that I
Speaker 1: was seeing being played around in these high in kitchens
Speaker 1: and Charleston. So, you know, wanting to see the calendar
Speaker 1: goal rights back, I wanted to see these things back.
Speaker 1: So uh, you know, the seasonality, you know, the the
Speaker 1: opra there, the virietoes of oprah and peas back into
Speaker 1: the restaurant. So I started doing the pop ups, the
Speaker 1: Gottachy pop ups, and at the same time I started
Speaker 1: to transition myself into wanting to be fully independent. It's
Speaker 1: like two thousand and thirteen. I would give people my cards,
Speaker 1: say I'm also a carterer, so you want to taste
Speaker 1: this food, you can hire me for Where don't you
Speaker 1: have me for a house party? Whatever? Whatever? Was clever.
Speaker 1: From there, it just took off and evolved into what
Speaker 1: it is now, which is more than food. It's history
Speaker 1: is cultural. It's connecting the dots to the dish board
Speaker 1: through food. So I guess that's the long short road.
Speaker 1: That's a good version. While you were in process, obviously
Speaker 1: you were garnering a lot of inspiration, as many chefs
Speaker 1: to from the French style of cooking, since that's what
Speaker 1: the culinary education is really rooted on Um and most
Speaker 1: of the Western world at least. What were you researching
Speaker 1: to help deepen your knowledge about this seasonal cuisine of
Speaker 1: the diaspora and specifically of the African American people of
Speaker 1: the Low Country. Well, first of all, I've always been
Speaker 1: a big lover of the African, the African dios for
Speaker 1: the story in general. You know, coming from Charleston, you
Speaker 1: know the deep Galachi roots here. Um, and don't get twisted.
Speaker 1: The majority of us don't even have away understand our roots.
Speaker 1: That's why I do what I do. Partly also, but
Speaker 1: I was ok. I came from a family. My mother
Speaker 1: and father. They gave me books from like fourteen fifteen.
Speaker 1: I mean I read Marcuscovy. Um. I just it's just
Speaker 1: like research, man, I mean studying and sitting with elders.
Speaker 1: My grandfather when he was here, he's now an ancestor.
Speaker 1: He passed me three years ago. He was a he
Speaker 1: was he fished. We call him a netta man. I
Speaker 1: mean we can't. I never ate the big strip I
Speaker 1: never ate big group of snappers. I mean we got
Speaker 1: what we got in the creeks, small shark, catfish, croaker white.
Speaker 1: So when I grew up with a father who fish,
Speaker 1: he hunted when he needed to, and he farmed and
Speaker 1: growing vegetables was his favorite thing. So I will sit
Speaker 1: with him and talk about the always, you know, especially
Speaker 1: what I could get out of him. You know, at
Speaker 1: two eighty three, and he passed away at eighty nine,
Speaker 1: but he was getting up there. But I would ask them,
Speaker 1: and he talked about the rice culture, and he would
Speaker 1: talk about rice eating, and he would also bring it
Speaker 1: down to me and say, we didn't eat rice every day.
Speaker 1: You know, we had these different greens and so this
Speaker 1: it's still the evolving thing for me. But he talked
Speaker 1: about the rice pond they had remem brother. That's a
Speaker 1: beautiful question that is so complex and still in process, right.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're still very much as much of a
Speaker 1: student um as you are a teacher, as is often
Speaker 1: the case. So I want to talk more about the
Speaker 1: rice as it relates to Gala culture. Can you explain
Speaker 1: who they are rather as well as what the role
Speaker 1: of rice played in the development of that community. Well,
Speaker 1: gul of people will be situated on the coast of
Speaker 1: Charleston and the coast of South Carolina. Charleston Charleston basically
Speaker 1: a peninsula in the middle of all these sea islands.
Speaker 1: And you know it runs from you know, Womanton, North Carolina,
Speaker 1: all the way down to Jacksonville, Florida. So us here
Speaker 1: still on the coast. Obviously, the knowledge of rice Charleston
Speaker 1: was known for rice and you can see it to
Speaker 1: this day. The folks who was still living really well
Speaker 1: of the knowledge of the enslaved Africans on the coast
Speaker 1: of South Carolina known as the Gala people. Because of
Speaker 1: isolation during that time, um we were able to help
Speaker 1: hold onto a lot of the language that came from
Speaker 1: West Africa. So it was in the truest form. Is
Speaker 1: a pure West African language of different ethnic tribal groups
Speaker 1: that came together. You don't hear, really there's anybody who
Speaker 1: really speaks pure Gala anymore, but you're here in every
Speaker 1: day vernacular words like babba babba this galaful boy boy, Kumbaya.
Speaker 1: Kumbaya was singing the fields and the way to sing
Speaker 1: to your ancestors to come back and not you know
Speaker 1: what we see today. It's like this hole enhanced thing.
Speaker 1: Kumbaya was a Gala word. Also, come back here, come yeah,
Speaker 1: we say, we will be like come yea lucky, do
Speaker 1: you not your boy? That's like yichi talk. That's the
Speaker 1: Chi talk right there. Slippery tongue. Gala and as pure
Speaker 1: as form. Gala was an English based is an English
Speaker 1: based Creuel Soto spoken by a few people like maybe
Speaker 1: we say certain words Kuda Kuda means turtle, hon THEMN
Speaker 1: them is um you and them, you and them. Gala
Speaker 1: was the abolitionist came down here and say, yo, you
Speaker 1: gotta stay talking like that. So this you're talking about
Speaker 1: a language of art that's been after the Civil War.
Speaker 1: Funny enough, being isolated here in the South after the
Speaker 1: Civil Wars when the language started to die. Abolition is
Speaker 1: came from the north and they didn't understand. I mean
Speaker 1: my grandfather. Then you told my grandfather my grandmother and
Speaker 1: he said he was Gichi for shore. But you say
Speaker 1: to them, they were getting your gla. That was a
Speaker 1: fight ignorance. You couldn't You didn't know how to speak.
Speaker 1: And that was only even amongst black people from other
Speaker 1: parts of the South. Or does the Gichi people. The
Speaker 1: Gala people have held all We have held on to
Speaker 1: more of our africanisms than any other African American culture
Speaker 1: in the United States. So this is this, this, these
Speaker 1: these paralysms that exists with the Gala culture. And obviously
Speaker 1: we had a knowledge of growing rice. That's why we
Speaker 1: are called rice eaters. They say them heat people to
Speaker 1: eat rice all day long. I would say this because
Speaker 1: research gets deep when you talk to the elders. We
Speaker 1: didn't eat rice every day. Rice was a crop that
Speaker 1: you grew. You know, we've forgotten about the sword, and
Speaker 1: we've forgotten about military and forgotten about phone your green
Speaker 1: which is not being talked about, that was documented being
Speaker 1: ruined about out of people here. But rice. It's important
Speaker 1: because rice kind of unifies. That's across the last poor
Speaker 1: and rice made this city rich and we are known
Speaker 1: for our rights culture. People were growing right up to
Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. Man up here, Honestly, I've talked to
Speaker 1: elders said, yeah, we had rice ponds in our backyard
Speaker 1: up in the late to the late seventies, first part
Speaker 1: of the nineteen eighties. So rice is important. Yes, my
Speaker 1: grandfather had a rice pawn when he was a kid.
Speaker 1: Now because we have accessibility and we have acessibility to
Speaker 1: bad rice, which is also another issue because if we
Speaker 1: get back to growing our rice, when you pound out
Speaker 1: rice and the first pounding and you and you and
Speaker 1: you clean it and stuff, you still got that good
Speaker 1: brand on it. You really see that as like hand harvested.
Speaker 1: That's the right that in our ancestors would have been eaten.
Speaker 1: So now that we're we have this tag on us,
Speaker 1: this rice eating people, we're eating the wrong rights, were
Speaker 1: eating the bad rice. How is it that the color
Speaker 1: people have u managed to maintain such a strong cultural
Speaker 1: identity and such a strong cultural connection to the continent.
Speaker 1: You know, we still still had the isolation, I think
Speaker 1: heavy isolation up to maybe the fifties. You know, then
Speaker 1: you had like hilt in hand start to being the
Speaker 1: eyes of developers, and so we still held on and
Speaker 1: people still spoke color and here and people still speaking.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very rare. The isolation was key, and
Speaker 1: I think by after I said whole, by that time,
Speaker 1: you had a culture that was pretty much set firm.
Speaker 1: I mean, I tell people all the time, you come
Speaker 1: to Charleston, and unfortunately sometimes our gatekeepers are people who
Speaker 1: are the most impoverished. We don't look at like that
Speaker 1: because because of poverty and not being able to get
Speaker 1: the luxuries of what we have over here, especially those
Speaker 1: are empoveris on the in the and we call the countryside,
Speaker 1: they have to hold onto a lot of roots survival,
Speaker 1: if that makes sense. You know what I'm saying, Like
Speaker 1: smoke herring and rice, you really don't see that. You know,
Speaker 1: nobody who got a lot of money eaten or can
Speaker 1: buy this and that unless they nostalgic forward. Yes, it's
Speaker 1: interesting that the isolation in a way is kind of
Speaker 1: what was able to to save the culture you were.
Speaker 1: You're just about to um start talking about food, and
Speaker 1: I want you to do more of that. So can
Speaker 1: you say in your own work, uh, some dishes that
Speaker 1: you've used to to kind of showcase the role of
Speaker 1: rice um in the cuisine? Oh yeah, man, pearls. You know,
Speaker 1: some people will call it plow. We say pearlow. We
Speaker 1: spell it eighteen million different ways. Everybody knows happ and
Speaker 1: John copies and rice, you know. But if you say
Speaker 1: black eyed peas but down, Yeah, you're around here, you
Speaker 1: talk to Glaghichi is happ and John is our dish?
Speaker 1: You just not getting twisted and the coming of infamous
Speaker 1: around for black fool happ and John's a gotta Gichi
Speaker 1: originated dish. Let me and let me refreeze that, because
Speaker 1: peas and rice is that one dish that connects us
Speaker 1: throughout the ass world. Peas and rising Jamaica, peas and
Speaker 1: rice in West Africa. But yeah, happ and John chicken rice.
Speaker 1: Okrah rice, which is limp and Susan food folklore here
Speaker 1: in the Low Country. That is the wife of Harp
Speaker 1: and John. Okay, I mean, if you want to be truthful, Okay,
Speaker 1: all red rice, red rice, which is the cousin daughter
Speaker 1: sister gel Off, which is in the same family where rising,
Speaker 1: the same family with Jambalaya and now Orleans, Louisiana. You know,
Speaker 1: we rice crab rice, you know right, you know it
Speaker 1: was the backdrop for a lot of a lot of dishes.
Speaker 1: And I'll be honest, in the colonial period, it was
Speaker 1: the backdrop. You see it in so many colonial clipbooks
Speaker 1: because it was truly an elitist food. If you look
Speaker 1: at all the colonial cookbooks in Low Country of South Carolina,
Speaker 1: rent through the lens of a European housewife. But she
Speaker 1: was writing that through the lens of what her enslaved
Speaker 1: African cooks was done. So you see dishes and then
Speaker 1: you see the didn you see the English French influencing
Speaker 1: certain dishes like we call rice pie, which is basically
Speaker 1: a rice castle road dish. Then that's when you start
Speaker 1: to see the little bit of European influence into these
Speaker 1: rice dishes. But it would have been the the enslaved
Speaker 1: African hand in the pot that was given it the
Speaker 1: season that was giving it a flare. And you are
Speaker 1: obviously still preparing a lot of these dishes. Um. So
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about catering because that
Speaker 1: is probably outside of an event or something, I imagine,
Speaker 1: the best way for people to try your food. So
Speaker 1: I want to talk to you about, you know, the
Speaker 1: work that you're doing and some of your go tos
Speaker 1: as a caterer, but also can you tell us about
Speaker 1: the relationship between these African hands that you speak of
Speaker 1: and catering in a historical context and how um you know,
Speaker 1: catering has always been a place of refuge and occupation
Speaker 1: for African American people. Yeah, man, you that's a that's
Speaker 1: a great question. You know here in Charleston and you
Speaker 1: can ride around and there's certain buildings I canna point out,
Speaker 1: like that used to be a Black On hotel and
Speaker 1: I'm talking about eighties something. Wow, that was a Black Wound.
Speaker 1: That was a Black Couple Wound restaurant from circor eighteen.
Speaker 1: The role of food is so powerful even during the
Speaker 1: time that our people were going through hell, because see
Speaker 1: in the city of Charles, and there was no plantations
Speaker 1: in the city. There's one lone group. But other than that,
Speaker 1: everybody who was here was either you know, you were butler, carterer,
Speaker 1: house cook. And then then you had your free people
Speaker 1: who owned restaurants, who were carriers, black caterers. In the
Speaker 1: colonial period, there were some of those who were were
Speaker 1: in spaces that a lot of us couldn't get into.
Speaker 1: Some of those who were able to build spaces for
Speaker 1: us back then privately that we weren't able to get into.
Speaker 1: Other places, there were prominent societies and it's it's amazing.
Speaker 1: I mean, catering. Catering is huge for us. It's always
Speaker 1: always has been. It was how we got into owning
Speaker 1: our restaurants back then. You know, you see the documents
Speaker 1: of the theme caterer Not Fuller, who was a famous
Speaker 1: caterer in Charleston, the most famous chef in Charleston from
Speaker 1: eighteen fifty to eighteen sixty after the Civil War, his restaurant,
Speaker 1: the Bachelor's Retreat. Theme fame celebrated Carter, not Fuller. Always
Speaker 1: there was that catering, because that's how we usually got
Speaker 1: a start. Sometimes it might have been funded by the
Speaker 1: person who enslaved you, who took their he or she's
Speaker 1: percentage from you, But you still have some I'm gonna
Speaker 1: just say the real freedom but limited leadway, you know
Speaker 1: what I'm saying and doing things. And some people had
Speaker 1: it all outright freedom knowing their own buildings, but catering
Speaker 1: was always huge fuss, huge fuss, And that's what I do. Now.
Speaker 1: It's a beautiful thing, you know. I'm I'm working to
Speaker 1: get to the point of getting into the restaurant. We're
Speaker 1: looking at real estate right now to open up a
Speaker 1: Grab and Gold studio, kitchen Vibe. You know, we talked
Speaker 1: about a little bit off the phone, but yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: a caterer. I mean, it's it's a beautiful thing and
Speaker 1: it's allowed me to travel. It's allowed me to do
Speaker 1: the research I need to be done to allow me
Speaker 1: to cook across the country. I mean, I I'm being
Speaker 1: the Montreal and Toronto cooking. You know, I've been to Benei,
Speaker 1: West Africa cooking. You know. It's it's it's it's it's beautiful, man,
Speaker 1: and it's a part of our heritage that's been throng.
Speaker 1: I mean because from the catering king, the restaurant, the
Speaker 1: restaurant Torks. So yeah, man, it's it's, it's it's what
Speaker 1: I do. Um. You know, like I said, we all,
Speaker 1: we all in the talks of looking for some buildings,
Speaker 1: but it's going to be an expansion of the catering company.
Speaker 1: UM and catering has kept a lot of black people,
Speaker 1: a lot of us our pockets. Nice. Um, And it's
Speaker 1: and it's it's been like that for for for wow,
Speaker 1: for decades. Well, I am so glad that you are
Speaker 1: doing the work that you're doing. I'm really glad that
Speaker 1: you're able to fully show up to this legacy of
Speaker 1: proudly working as a black caterer and that you are
Speaker 1: finding your own version of liberation in that work. And uh,
Speaker 1: I would be very happy for your brick and mortar
Speaker 1: project to get off the ground, as I'm sure it will.
Speaker 1: But um, even the work that you've already done, it's
Speaker 1: just been incredible. So I thank you for that, brother,
Speaker 1: b J. Dennis big fan. Like I said, so, thank
Speaker 1: you so much for taking time to u tell us
Speaker 1: more about your work and also the history of rice
Speaker 1: and the gull of people in South Carolina. Oh man,
Speaker 1: thank you, brother, thank you for the work that you
Speaker 1: do too, give us a voice of black worn to
Speaker 1: speak and look forward to nexton in the physical for
Speaker 1: him soon, you know. But it was it was great man.
Speaker 1: Thank you for having me for sure. Of course we'll
Speaker 1: do it again soon. Man fraid come Daniel, rugging, rugging, shutting, shocking.
Speaker 1: That was Chef b J. Dennis giving us that Gigi talk.
Speaker 1: I could talk to that man all day long. I
Speaker 1: love his voice, I love his spirit, and I love
Speaker 1: all of his work. If you're on Instagram, you'll should
Speaker 1: follow b J the Gorman at Chef J. Dennis. Appreciate
Speaker 1: you for coming on. Chef oh Dan you m m
Speaker 1: m m m m m m m m m m
Speaker 1: m m m m m m And that's it for
Speaker 1: this episode. Point of Origin is a podcast from my
Speaker 1: Heart Media and wet Stone Magazine executive produced by Christopher
Speaker 1: Hasiotis and hosted by me Stephen Saderfield. Special thanks to
Speaker 1: Cat Hoong for editing, supervising producer Gabrielle Collins, and a
Speaker 1: very special thanks to my business partner, wet Stone co
Speaker 1: founder Melissa she who helped produce this podcast. Thanks mel
Speaker 1: I hope you've enjoyed today's very special episode on RICE.
Speaker 1: We'd like to thank our guest for making it possible,
Speaker 1: Chef and writer Jasmine Lee, Chef b J. Dennis, and
Speaker 1: thanks to all of you for supporting what Stone and
Speaker 1: listening to the Point of Origin podcast for all of
Speaker 1: the latest on all things Point of Origin. You can
Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at wet Stone Magazine or online
Speaker 1: at wet Stone magazine dot com. We'll see you next
Speaker 1: week at the Point of Origin. M