WEBVTT - Fighting Coronavirus Conspiracy Theories 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:03.720 This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.320 Jason Kelly. We're right here every day bringing you the 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:11.160 latest news from the world's of business and finance, plus technology, politics, economics, 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:14.280 all harnessing the power of Business Week reporters and editors. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.439 And of course Carol that's part of a team of 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:20.439 twenty seven hundred journalists and analysts more than a hundred 0:00:20.480 --> 0:00:23.280 and twenty countries and Jason. You can download Bloomberg Business 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:26.239 Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.640 also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern 0:00:28.680 --> 0:00:31.560 on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.920 by searching Bloomberg Global News. So let's talk about the 0:00:35.920 --> 0:00:39.640 news today from Maderna. The next guest really needs no introduction, 0:00:39.640 --> 0:00:41.720 and yet let's go through it. Dr William hasl Teen. 0:00:42.320 --> 0:00:45.080 His bio reminds us that he has educated a generation 0:00:45.080 --> 0:00:48.839 of doctors at Harvard h helped usign the strategy for 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:53.080 the first treatment for HIV AIDS. He also founded more 0:00:53.120 --> 0:00:56.720 than a dozen biotech companies, including Human Genome Sciences, and 0:00:56.720 --> 0:01:01.120 serves on many advisory boards. Welcome after Hazeltin. It's great 0:01:01.160 --> 0:01:02.680 to have you here with us. He's chairman and president 0:01:02.720 --> 0:01:05.800 of Access Health International. It's a nonprofit think tank. It's 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:07.920 really on a mission to improve access to high quality 0:01:07.920 --> 0:01:11.520 and affordable health care for everyone everywhere. And he joins 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:13.800 us on the phone in New York City, a doctor 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.280 Hazel teen, nice to have you here with Jason and myself. 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:20.560 The news today from Maderna. How do you see it? 0:01:20.600 --> 0:01:25.560 How do you read it? I see it as a 0:01:25.640 --> 0:01:29.759 small step forward and a lot of hype. Interesting, tell 0:01:29.840 --> 0:01:34.000 us more, Yeah, explain why? Well, there are eight pages 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.200 that they reported. The data is not public. We can 0:01:37.280 --> 0:01:41.160 evaluate it. We don't know what actually happened, and there 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:46.480 are other reports of published papers by scientists around the 0:01:46.480 --> 0:01:49.200 world who have uh done the least what they've done 0:01:49.240 --> 0:01:52.560 and perhaps more so. That's why I say it's a 0:01:52.600 --> 0:01:56.559 little bit of news and a lot of hype. And 0:01:56.600 --> 0:02:00.520 so when you look at that, is this just people, really, 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:03.920 the market in particular, and maybe us just as human 0:02:03.960 --> 0:02:07.760 beings looking and grabbing onto to some sliver of hope. Here, 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:15.239 Dr Hazeltine, you know, hope has been the handmaid of 0:02:15.360 --> 0:02:20.880 scoundrels for generations. It's what allows us to be conned 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.640 We need hope, but hope is also dangerous. We have 0:02:25.720 --> 0:02:28.800 to be careful yea with it. I'm not saying that 0:02:28.800 --> 0:02:32.360 that vaccine won't work. I'm just saying it's a very 0:02:32.360 --> 0:02:39.480 slender thread to move in the market. Well yeah, go ahead, No, no, no, 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.120 well you know what, let me just because we want 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:43.240 to continue this line of thought. We did. They catch up. 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.320 Our Bloomberg News team on the TV side caught up 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:50.200 at the Modernity CEO Stefan boncell Um, and talked about 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:52.919 Phase three the trial, specifically that they expect by July. 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:55.360 Let's just listen to a snippet of that interview. We 0:02:55.400 --> 0:02:58.480 are finalizing the protocol for a Phase three, which is 0:02:58.520 --> 0:03:02.840 the last clinical study before Provolo, which we are hoping 0:03:02.880 --> 0:03:06.760 to start in July of this year. Of the study 0:03:06.800 --> 0:03:12.040 will be several fathom, has the subjects across many countries. 0:03:12.720 --> 0:03:14.959 We are finalizing the protocol as we speak with the 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:18.320 var and we're hoping that people can start in July, 0:03:18.400 --> 0:03:22.000 as with our plans. So phase three, as we know 0:03:22.360 --> 0:03:26.800 and you certainly know, Dr Hazeltine is an important process, 0:03:26.800 --> 0:03:30.640 but but it reminds us that there's still a lot 0:03:30.800 --> 0:03:34.560 to be known, right there's a lot to be known. No, 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:37.960 as far as we know, there's been no real challenge 0:03:38.000 --> 0:03:40.560 and a human being. And I can say that I've 0:03:40.600 --> 0:03:46.560 been reviewing the literature of vaccine efforts over many years, 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:52.240 first with stars, then with mirrors and other coronaviruses. This 0:03:52.320 --> 0:03:56.360 is not a simple problem. Um. There are a number 0:03:56.360 --> 0:03:59.080 of different attempts that have been made. There are results 0:03:59.120 --> 0:04:02.360 that look at least as good as these results from 0:04:02.560 --> 0:04:06.920 two other laboratories, and so it's it's very premature. It 0:04:06.920 --> 0:04:08.520 doesn't mean it's not going to work. I don't want 0:04:08.560 --> 0:04:10.840 to say that I have any information about whether it's 0:04:10.840 --> 0:04:13.560 going to work or not. All I can say is 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:19.240 the kinds of signals they're getting are expected at this stage. 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:23.719 They don't necessarily mean that the vaccine will protect anybody, 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:27.240 or if they do protect it, how long they will 0:04:27.279 --> 0:04:30.039 protect them. There are a lot of questions that remain 0:04:30.240 --> 0:04:33.159 to be done, and eight people is a far too 0:04:33.200 --> 0:04:38.040 small study to know whether it's even safe. So, you know, 0:04:38.120 --> 0:04:41.360 I think making a big announcement that moves the market 0:04:42.000 --> 0:04:45.359 on a first in human study for eight people is 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:51.840 an extraordinary event in biomedical science. It just doesn't happen. Uh, 0:04:52.279 --> 0:04:56.039 The fact that this has happened puts I think we 0:04:56.080 --> 0:04:59.200 all understand why we're all desperate to see an end 0:04:59.279 --> 0:05:03.159 to this disease. We have friends, we have children and 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:08.719 grandchildren were deeply worried about uh We're all upset about 0:05:08.760 --> 0:05:11.240 the economy and the way this has changed our lives, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.840 and we are hoping for an ant But hope is 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:18.080 not the answer. Really, hard data is the answer to 0:05:18.360 --> 0:05:21.440 what's what we need, and we haven't seen that yet. 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.359 Let's get right back to our conversation with Dr WILLIAMS. Hazeltine, 0:05:24.480 --> 0:05:30.840 Chair President of Access Health International, legendary in the medical field, 0:05:30.920 --> 0:05:33.839 and Dr Hazeltine, I wanted to take you back, if 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.400 we could, to some time that you spent last year 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:41.960 in China and in Wuhan specifically, and I wonder what 0:05:42.240 --> 0:05:46.479 you make of where the outbreak is there and what 0:05:46.560 --> 0:05:52.159 we should be taking in terms of lessons here. Juhan 0:05:52.360 --> 0:05:55.599 is a very nice city. It's a garden city in 0:05:55.640 --> 0:05:59.839 a way. It's a high tech city, uh and it's 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:04.720 a university town. It's a very interesting city. UM. If 0:06:04.720 --> 0:06:07.000 you look at the history, and I have friends there 0:06:07.000 --> 0:06:11.280 and I have followed it pretty closely. Uhan is now 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:15.359 pretty much back not to normal, but it is certainly 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:20.720 way ahead of where we are. And that's because it's 0:06:20.760 --> 0:06:24.880 a very very vigorous methods to shut down the infection. 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.200 It worked. If you look at the total number of 0:06:27.240 --> 0:06:30.279 cases in China. There are sporadic cases here and there, 0:06:30.320 --> 0:06:33.800 particularly up by the Russian border, but basically that the 0:06:34.080 --> 0:06:38.360 entire country, for example, Beijing hasn't had a new infection 0:06:38.400 --> 0:06:42.080 for thirty days. It is quite remarkable what you can 0:06:42.120 --> 0:06:45.480 do with public health measures without a vaccine or without 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:50.200 a drug. Right And you know, the Chinese government, I 0:06:50.200 --> 0:06:52.960 would guess, has certainly been helpful in making it possible 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:56.440 for people to stay home um, also requiring people to 0:06:56.480 --> 0:06:59.920 stay home. UM. How do you see the US approach? 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:03.359 I mean, it's it's there's so much pressure. You see it, 0:07:03.440 --> 0:07:07.919 the protests on various governors in certain states to reopen UM. 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:09.920 I feel like it's a delicate balance. What is the 0:07:09.920 --> 0:07:12.800 balance that? How you see it between balancing making sure 0:07:12.840 --> 0:07:15.440 people stay safe. But you know, we've got an economy 0:07:15.560 --> 0:07:20.160 that's that's really a mess right now. It's you've got 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.480 you've you've summarized it very nicely. If I look at 0:07:23.480 --> 0:07:25.960 the data in the us UH and I look at 0:07:26.080 --> 0:07:28.680 the most cities. What I see is what I would 0:07:28.680 --> 0:07:32.400 have expected. That we climbed up to the top of 0:07:32.400 --> 0:07:34.280 what we hoped was a mountain, but it turned out 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:37.160 it was a plateau. And the end of that plateau 0:07:37.520 --> 0:07:40.680 is not yet insight. And that's because we haven't taken 0:07:40.720 --> 0:07:44.400 the measures in this country to restrict people to people 0:07:44.480 --> 0:07:48.800 transmission it's necessary. We've reduced it so that in many 0:07:48.840 --> 0:07:51.200 places we're at a plateau. But if you look around 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:53.960 the world and you look at the countries that have 0:07:54.080 --> 0:07:57.040 been really effective and having a sharp rise and a 0:07:57.120 --> 0:08:00.840 sharp fall, they've been very restrictive. If you look at 0:08:00.880 --> 0:08:04.280 the countries like the United States and Great Britain, you 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.280 find that we have just as many infections on a 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:10.840 daily basis today as we did when we closed the 0:08:10.880 --> 0:08:17.640 place up. That's sort of surprising, and it suggests that 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.400 if we open up again and we're careless about how 0:08:20.400 --> 0:08:24.480 we open up, we'll have another rise. And if people 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.360 think the warm weather is going to save them, they 0:08:26.400 --> 0:08:28.560 should look at the data from India, where it's really 0:08:28.560 --> 0:08:31.560 warm right now. It's free monsoon. I've been there. It 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:35.520 is hot as hades there and it's damned, it's miserable, 0:08:35.720 --> 0:08:41.080 and that that infection is just skyrocketing right through the roof. 0:08:41.080 --> 0:08:44.400 It's in an exponential phase right now, and that is 0:08:44.480 --> 0:08:46.920 in really warm weather. So warm weather isn't going to 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:50.920 save anybody. What will save us is being careful of 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:53.840 who we meet. Doesn't mean we have to keep the 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.640 economy closed, but it means that as long as there's 0:08:56.679 --> 0:09:00.600 a high level of infection in your community, you have 0:09:00.720 --> 0:09:04.920 to be extremely careful. The only safe assumption is that 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.160 everybody you meet is infected and that you, even if 0:09:08.200 --> 0:09:11.840 you've had this disease, can be reinfected. That is the 0:09:11.920 --> 0:09:15.520 only safe assumption. So if it goes back to taste 0:09:15.880 --> 0:09:18.040 testing and tracing, I mean, do we do we need 0:09:18.080 --> 0:09:19.959 to wake up every day and say, okay, these are 0:09:19.960 --> 0:09:23.520 the hotspots in our local communities. So this is either 0:09:23.559 --> 0:09:25.160 where we don't want to go or this is where 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:27.200 people need to be quarantined. Like, how do we need 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:30.440 to do an Unfortunately, we only have about a minute left. Okay, 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:34.200 we you've only used two words test, trace, and I 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:40.200 would ask, and then what what is isolation? And very 0:09:40.320 --> 0:09:46.680 strict isolation? Voluntary hopefully and if that doesn't work, involuntary test, 0:09:47.000 --> 0:09:51.920 trace and isolate those that are infected. Is the only 0:09:52.240 --> 0:09:55.319 sure way is long as the virus is in your 0:09:55.360 --> 0:10:00.640 community and is spreading. I want some people to listen 0:10:00.640 --> 0:10:03.640 to this to remember one thing. It took one person 0:10:03.679 --> 0:10:07.320 in China to infect the world, one person. It will 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:10.760 take one person in your city to reinfect the whole city. 0:10:10.920 --> 0:10:13.320 And it will take one person in your household to 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:17.880 reinfect your entire household. We must be careful, yes, open, 0:10:18.760 --> 0:10:22.319 open when the virus levels are low, and be and 0:10:22.640 --> 0:10:28.040 assume everybody you meet is potentially infected. All right, Well, um, 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:31.640 words of caution, certainly, and a good warning on a 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:34.160 day when there seems to be a lot of brilliance, 0:10:34.400 --> 0:10:37.800 to say the least, certainly from a market perspective. Dr 0:10:37.840 --> 0:10:40.920 William Hazeltine, he knows what he's talking about, cheering, President 0:10:40.960 --> 0:10:45.160 of Excess Health International, A long history of fighting disease. 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:47.360 We really appreciate your time here on a Monday. This 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:51.520 is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly 0:10:51.640 --> 0:10:56.800 on Bloomberg Radio. You know, it's interesting talking to Bill Hazeltine. 0:10:57.040 --> 0:11:00.880 Dr Belle Hazeltine, Carol, you know just about the information, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.439 how you read it. You know what's working, what's not working. 0:11:05.280 --> 0:11:07.720 All of us are just grasping for anything that we 0:11:07.760 --> 0:11:10.600 can get our hands on, you know, some measure of hope. 0:11:11.000 --> 0:11:13.400 And that makes it a lot trickier to figure out, 0:11:13.400 --> 0:11:15.840 like who's telling the truth, who's not, what's coming over 0:11:15.880 --> 0:11:18.520 the internet. Let's get into that story. It's a fascinating 0:11:18.600 --> 0:11:21.560 piece written by Joshua Breusting. He's a tech writer for 0:11:21.600 --> 0:11:26.080 Bloomberg business Week. It's in the magazine this week, online 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:29.000 and at Bloomberg dot com and the Bloomberg Terminal. Today 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:30.800 he joins us on the phone from New York City. 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:34.400 Joe Webber, the editor of Bloomberg business Week. He's on 0:11:34.440 --> 0:11:38.480 a remote line in Brooklyn. So JDub set this up 0:11:38.559 --> 0:11:43.120 for us because this is a really important story. So 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:48.240 you know, we we've been talking just a lot about how, um, 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:51.920 you know, information, how we process information in general, and 0:11:52.000 --> 0:11:54.240 you know, Josh kind of raised his hand about this 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:58.199 group at the State Department called the well shorthand as 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:01.680 GEK and he'll tell us more about them in a second. Um. 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:04.640 And the moment he started telling us about them, we 0:12:04.720 --> 0:12:07.520 just said, you need to start writing this story because 0:12:07.520 --> 0:12:09.720 what it really shows is UM you know, the US 0:12:09.880 --> 0:12:12.600 is you know, we've we've been talking about disinformation for 0:12:12.600 --> 0:12:14.880 for a couple of years now, but even within the 0:12:14.960 --> 0:12:17.480 US government there's actually some people who know about that 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.240 more than others. UM, josh what what the backstory of 0:12:21.440 --> 0:12:26.440 ghek so GET or the Global Engagement Center is an 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.679 office within the U S State Department, And I had 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:33.640 actually been looking at it far before the current UM 0:12:33.800 --> 0:12:39.680 COVID pandemic when UM there were actually questions about recruitment 0:12:40.040 --> 0:12:45.560 of Islamic groups using online channels for recruitment. That was 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:51.040 the get's original charge UM, and then it's expanded to 0:12:51.120 --> 0:12:58.120 deal with Russian disinformation UM during the election UM and 0:12:58.240 --> 0:13:02.199 kind of shifted away from online recruitment and towards state 0:13:02.280 --> 0:13:09.120 sponsored attempts to UM basically poisoned online discourse around various things. Obviously, 0:13:09.280 --> 0:13:12.360 the coronavirus has made this just more urgent than it's 0:13:12.360 --> 0:13:16.000 ever seen before. So can I just say this is 0:13:16.040 --> 0:13:18.680 one of those stories you're like, wait a minute, You've 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:23.280 got this agency within the government that is looking into 0:13:23.400 --> 0:13:27.720 basically debunking conspiracy theories, and yet, as you write, Josh 0:13:27.920 --> 0:13:30.280 in one of your Joshua and one of your in 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.559 your story. Hanging over all of this is the US 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:37.720 government's biggest obstacle to eliminating misinformation. Gabrielle, which is the 0:13:37.840 --> 0:13:41.679 woman who runs this, who runs GHEK, you write her 0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:46.359 boss's bosses, bosses tendency to amplify the sorts of conspiracy 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:49.320 theories that GEK was created to contain. You're talking about 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:54.400 President Trump, Yeah, exactly. Uh. The GEK has really been 0:13:54.480 --> 0:13:58.240 bedeviled by President Trump from the time he took off 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.360 it in different ways. Interestingly, at first, when it was 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:03.360 just trying to build up its staff. Right at the 0:14:03.400 --> 0:14:07.880 beginning of his administration, he UM and his administration had 0:14:07.920 --> 0:14:11.000 really no interest in having a part of the U. 0:14:11.040 --> 0:14:14.840 S State Department that was focused on Russian disinformation given 0:14:15.320 --> 0:14:21.600 the election and his um real opposition to looking closer 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:25.960 into that operation. UH. Then in more recent years, UH, 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:31.320 the administration has become more interested in UH in the GECK. 0:14:31.400 --> 0:14:36.520 It's increased it's UM, it's increased its budgets significantly, and now, 0:14:36.640 --> 0:14:40.240 especially during coronavirus, you have the situation where this is 0:14:40.240 --> 0:14:45.040 a small agency trying to say the Chinese government is 0:14:45.920 --> 0:14:51.080 UM backing these UH misinformation campaigns related to COVID. The 0:14:51.160 --> 0:14:54.920 Russian government is backing misinformation campaigns relate to COVID. But 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:57.280 a lot of the information is things that you have 0:14:57.400 --> 0:15:01.200 heard from President Trump sometimes and that makes it difficult 0:15:01.320 --> 0:15:05.840 to really to speak with a U to speak confidently 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:09.280 on that. So, Joshua, the part of the thing that 0:15:09.320 --> 0:15:11.120 I think we we were sort of captivated by in 0:15:11.160 --> 0:15:14.200 the story is like the agency kind of does things 0:15:14.200 --> 0:15:18.720 both ways. It's both defensive and sort of offensive. How 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:23.280 do they play both sides like that? Sure? So the 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:30.640 defensive aspect is really the identification, UM and exposure of 0:15:31.120 --> 0:15:35.000 foreign disinformation campaigns, and that's really the thing that they 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:41.040 focused on most during the during the coronavirus pandemic. You've 0:15:41.080 --> 0:15:44.760 seen the agency, you know, come out and say Russia 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:48.360 is doing this or China is doing that. Interestingly, UM, 0:15:48.440 --> 0:15:51.960 some other disinformation experts have questions some of these conclusions. 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.320 The offensive aspect of this, which it really is not 0:15:56.520 --> 0:16:00.080 as open about right now, is having some sort of 0:16:00.160 --> 0:16:05.040 counter programming out there, usually UM targeted at audiences abroad 0:16:05.600 --> 0:16:09.080 to put out messages that would undermine the sort of 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:13.280 messaging coming from other states. So what does this guy, 0:16:13.320 --> 0:16:16.480 I mean, how worried should we be about all of 0:16:16.520 --> 0:16:18.520 this at a time where we're I mean this this 0:16:18.600 --> 0:16:23.000 is not an academic exercise in many ways, because people 0:16:23.040 --> 0:16:26.920 are making real life decisions based on what they read 0:16:26.960 --> 0:16:31.120 on the internet in some ways. After doing this reporting, Joshua, 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:36.120 what's your takeaway, Well, the first thing is, I think 0:16:36.160 --> 0:16:40.520 there's pretty much consensus amongst anyone paying attention that there's 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:46.080 a real danger too uh, manipulation of online platforms to 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:49.000 spread lives and confusion, and that it could Yeah, it 0:16:49.000 --> 0:16:52.200 could lead to people, you know, either doing things that 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:54.600 will personally hear themselves or not acting in ways that 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.960 can help us collectively deal with the problem with the problem. 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.160 And the second point is that I think the experience 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.840 of the Global Engagement Center shows just how tricky it 0:17:03.920 --> 0:17:08.000 is for a government to respond to this. Anything that 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.280 any administration does is inherently political, and when you have 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:18.400 such polarized times, having the Trump administration say something is uh, 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:21.440 it's coming from a particular place, and given how people 0:17:21.520 --> 0:17:24.480 generally react to things based on where they come from, 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:28.480 it has been Uh, it's fraught to have someone trying 0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:33.320 to act in what would seem to be a neutral way. Yeah, Well, 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:37.000 it's really Ah, it's it's quite a it's quite a story, 0:17:37.160 --> 0:17:39.600 and we're really happy you brought it to as. Joshua 0:17:39.640 --> 0:17:42.639 Breustin is tech writer for Bloomberg Business Week, joining us 0:17:42.760 --> 0:17:45.840 on the phone from New York City. Joel Webber, the 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:50.040 editor of Bloomberg Business Week. He joined us from Brooklyn, 0:17:50.320 --> 0:17:52.359 and I have to say, I mean, this takes us 0:17:52.359 --> 0:17:56.280 back to the election. We've got another election coming up. 0:17:56.440 --> 0:17:59.879 We're talking to Cheryl Sandberg later. Um, so you do 0:18:00.160 --> 0:18:04.200 wonder what the private sector is doing around this, as 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:07.360 well as the government, because, as Joshua very rightly points out, 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:10.040 it gets trickier when the governments of all this. I 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:15.440 have to say, we just finished watching Homeland. All of this, yeah, 0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:18.920 is it comes together right and you think, okay, wait 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:20.439 a minute, this is just you know, I'm watching a 0:18:20.480 --> 0:18:22.399 series or something. Then you read these kinds of stories 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:25.359 and you're like, oh, wait a minute, like, wa is 0:18:25.400 --> 0:18:29.720 this is this Gabrielle or Carrie exactly. This is Bloomberg 0:18:29.800 --> 0:18:34.240 Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. 0:18:34.560 --> 0:18:37.119 Let's catch up with Andy Brown. He is editorial director 0:18:37.160 --> 0:18:40.000 of Bloomberg New Economy, joining me on the phone. From 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:43.840 New Hampshire. It's got a great column on the Bloomberg Today. 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:47.920 Check it out. It's called very simply, US China relations 0:18:48.240 --> 0:18:54.760 hang by two threads, and those threads feeling increasingly gossamer 0:18:54.960 --> 0:19:00.280 and in many ways so much rhetoric, uh, flying back 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:04.520 and forth. Tell us what you make of this, because 0:19:04.920 --> 0:19:07.320 it's trade and virus, right, I mean, there are those 0:19:07.359 --> 0:19:12.119 the two threads. Yep. Well, one of those is trade, 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.480 that's for sure. I mean that's the most important one, 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:18.960 this phase one trade deal. This is the most important 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:22.439 achievement of the Trump administration visa v China. I mean, 0:19:22.480 --> 0:19:26.040 it's what it's. It's it's pretty much the only accomplished, 0:19:26.119 --> 0:19:29.239 the signal accomplishment from you know, all the huffing and 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.160 puffing and standing up to China, and you know, right 0:19:33.160 --> 0:19:35.919 now it's it's up in the air. So you know, 0:19:35.960 --> 0:19:39.399 Trump tells Fox Business last week, maybe we should just 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:43.600 cut off the relationship all together, the whole the whole thing, 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.479 just dumped the relationship with with China. And you know, 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:49.320 it's not the first time we've heard this kind of 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.320 rhetoric from him. Last year, you remember he told all 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:57.640 American companies to exit China. Um, but you know, increasingly 0:19:57.720 --> 0:20:03.440 markets seemed to believe that he could he could be serious. Yeah, 0:20:03.520 --> 0:20:06.399 and why I mean what we talked a little bit 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:10.239 about this last week, but remind us like why this 0:20:10.440 --> 0:20:15.240 timing do you think and what is what's underneath this 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:20.639 from the US administration's perspective. Well, look, I mean Trump 0:20:20.720 --> 0:20:26.040 Trump has always had a very idiosyncratic view understanding of 0:20:26.080 --> 0:20:29.800 trade economics, right, and so you know, he believes essentially 0:20:29.880 --> 0:20:33.000 that every trade deal the US has ever has ever 0:20:33.160 --> 0:20:37.080 entered into has you know, has has been you know, 0:20:37.200 --> 0:20:39.560 bad for America, but America has got a raw deal, 0:20:39.760 --> 0:20:43.080 right and um, you know everybody else has has has 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.879 gained an America's expense. So he doesn't like trade generally. 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:52.959 He believes that trade deficits, um, you know, by definition 0:20:53.080 --> 0:20:55.679 mean that the US is getting a raw deal. It's 0:20:55.720 --> 0:20:57.920 sort of money that is coming out of your pocket, when, 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:01.840 of course, by and large, trade deficits in the US 0:21:01.960 --> 0:21:04.119 or an indication of the U s economy is healthy 0:21:04.160 --> 0:21:07.000 in doing well. And you know the only time America 0:21:07.040 --> 0:21:09.200 didn't have a trade deaf as it was was during 0:21:09.240 --> 0:21:11.760 the Great Depression where it didn't be all together. So 0:21:12.240 --> 0:21:15.560 you know, he's always taken a grim view on trade. 0:21:15.600 --> 0:21:18.439 But you know this, this seems to be part of 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:23.800 the whole bashing China to deflect attention and deflect blame 0:21:24.040 --> 0:21:29.320 from his mishandling at a federal level of of COVID nineteen. Yeah, 0:21:29.880 --> 0:21:32.520 and so you I was being a little bit glib 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:36.399 about the virus. But the the other one that you 0:21:36.480 --> 0:21:40.320 point out is basically the threat is that the connectivity 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:44.400 really between these two leaders, between Presidency and President Trump, 0:21:44.480 --> 0:21:47.000 helped me understand that. Yeah, well it's always been a 0:21:47.000 --> 0:21:50.920 bit of a fig leave. So right from the beginning, um, 0:21:51.080 --> 0:21:55.480 the White House has been very careful to separate the 0:21:55.600 --> 0:22:01.760 personal relationship that Donald Trump allegedly had us with Jimping, 0:22:01.880 --> 0:22:04.880 to try to separate that from all of the other 0:22:04.920 --> 0:22:07.560 bad things that are happening in the relationships. So you know, 0:22:07.760 --> 0:22:10.720 this was supposed to be the thing that holds it 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:15.080 all together and prevents a total unraveling. And you know, 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:17.520 so hence we would hear him say things like my 0:22:17.680 --> 0:22:21.240 good friends Jim Ping and he giming very rarely reciprocated 0:22:21.240 --> 0:22:23.080 to this sort of thing. Johnny's leaders don't go in 0:22:23.119 --> 0:22:26.720 for personal friendships. I mean, they go into national interests 0:22:26.720 --> 0:22:29.560 and that's it. Um, they're not big on sort of 0:22:29.880 --> 0:22:32.639 the like the bron nous, right they're they're they're not. 0:22:33.080 --> 0:22:36.120 That's not sort of their jam. They don't they don't 0:22:36.160 --> 0:22:38.960 do they don't do bromance. They don't do romance domastically, 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:43.880 and they certainly don't do it internationally. Nevertheless, there's there's 0:22:43.920 --> 0:22:47.199 been there's been this kind of pretense that you know, 0:22:47.240 --> 0:22:50.240 these two get along pretty well, and you know, and 0:22:50.520 --> 0:22:52.320 last week he says, I don't want I don't want 0:22:52.320 --> 0:22:54.200 I don't want to talk to him either, right, so 0:22:54.720 --> 0:22:56.800 you know, it's it's just a it's it's kind of 0:22:56.920 --> 0:23:01.160 more symbolic of what really does appear to a far 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:06.320 agoing unraveling of the entire relationship across its breadth. I 0:23:06.320 --> 0:23:11.520 mean technology, exchanges, trade, talent um and now of course 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:16.440 threatening to you know, to uh, threatening to cut off 0:23:16.480 --> 0:23:21.399 the China from from from US finance. Um, it's right 0:23:21.440 --> 0:23:24.640 across the board. Well, and it's interesting too because you're 0:23:24.640 --> 0:23:28.600 seeing this divergence, you know, and and again you're you're 0:23:28.640 --> 0:23:30.919 exactly right, and it's such a nice nuance to separate 0:23:30.960 --> 0:23:33.240 sort of the business from from the personal. But you know, 0:23:33.320 --> 0:23:36.240 even what seemed to be these personal slash professional views 0:23:36.280 --> 0:23:38.760 of something like the w h O. You know, where 0:23:38.760 --> 0:23:41.440 you have the President of the United States saying I'm 0:23:41.440 --> 0:23:43.280 done with them, I may cut off all their funding, 0:23:43.680 --> 0:23:47.200 and President She, you know, as recently as today, being like, 0:23:47.240 --> 0:23:49.240 we're going to fund this, like we're all in. I 0:23:49.240 --> 0:23:53.080 mean that it feels like the virus has exacerbated some 0:23:53.160 --> 0:23:56.640 things here, right, yeah, right, Well that that when when 0:23:56.680 --> 0:24:00.360 when President She stands up and says, you know, if 0:24:00.400 --> 0:24:02.840 we get a vaccine in China, we're gonna right into 0:24:02.840 --> 0:24:04.960 a public good and supply it to the whole world. 0:24:05.160 --> 0:24:06.800 And oh and by the way, we've got to log 0:24:06.880 --> 0:24:09.720 in another two billion dollars to the to the w 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:12.320 h O, which is a huge amount, I mean comparative 0:24:12.359 --> 0:24:14.040 to what they've been they've been putting in. I mean 0:24:14.040 --> 0:24:17.680 it's forty million bucks a year right now the US 0:24:17.760 --> 0:24:22.200 is putting so clearly, you know, the two pronged effort here. 0:24:22.280 --> 0:24:25.560 One is to deflect global criticism from china early mismanagement 0:24:25.600 --> 0:24:27.040 of the virus. But also it's a sort of a 0:24:27.080 --> 0:24:29.960 one up and ship on Trump. Right, who's who's who's 0:24:30.040 --> 0:24:33.119 defunding the who in the middle of a global pandemic. 0:24:33.680 --> 0:24:35.560