Speaker 1: Welcome to the Psychology Podcast, where we give you insights
Speaker 1: into the mind, brain, behavior, and creativity. I'm doctor Scott
Speaker 1: Barry Kaufman, and in each episode I have a conversation
Speaker 1: with a guest who will stimulate your mind and give
Speaker 1: you a greater understanding of yourself, others, and the world
Speaker 1: to live in. Hopefully we'll also provide a glimpse into
Speaker 1: human possibility. Thanks for listening and enjoy the podcast. I
Speaker 1: have a few announcements I'd like to make before we
Speaker 1: dive into today's episode. First, I wanted to let you
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Speaker 1: That's Transcend Course dot Com. Okay, now let's dive into
Speaker 1: today's episode. Today, it's great to chat with Rich Role
Speaker 1: on the podcast. Named one of the twenty five Fittest
Speaker 1: Men in the World by Men's Fitness and the Guru
Speaker 1: of Reinvention by Outside, Rich is a globally renowned ultra
Speaker 1: endurance athlete, wellness advocate, bestselling author, husband, father of four.
Speaker 1: Rich shares his inspirational story of addiction, redemption and optimal
Speaker 1: health in his number one best selling memoir Finding Ultra
Speaker 1: and the cookbook and lifestyle guides The Plant Powerway and
Speaker 1: The Plant Powerway Italia, which he co authored with his wife,
Speaker 1: Julie Piai. Rich has been featured on CNN, on the
Speaker 1: cover of Outside magazine, and has been profiled everywhere from
Speaker 1: The New York Times to the Wall Street Journal. His
Speaker 1: latest book, Voicing Change, features timeless wisdom and inspiration from
Speaker 1: the widely popular Ritual Podcast, one of the top one
Speaker 1: hundred podcasts in the world with over one hundred million downloads. Rich,
Speaker 1: I'm so excited to chat with you today. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having me, Scott. It's good to see you excited to
Speaker 1: dig into this man. Yeah, to get me all pumped
Speaker 1: for this interview. I went for a run this morning
Speaker 1: and I was like trying to channel my inner ritual
Speaker 1: as I as I did my one mile run. Nice.
Speaker 1: That's great. Yeah, you know, I'd like to have goals,
Speaker 1: you know, like I run to the coffee shop, do
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? So then I can have
Speaker 1: my favorite coffee. But that my goal is like the coffee,
Speaker 1: not the run. That's all right, man, whatever gets you there. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: it's really exciting to chat with you. You You know. I'm
Speaker 1: a psychologist, as you know, and I'm really interested in
Speaker 1: sort of the narratives that people looking back kind of
Speaker 1: when you look at your whole life story and you
Speaker 1: try to think, well what try to make sense of
Speaker 1: it all? You know, and you know, in researching you
Speaker 1: and for this podcast, I identified it looked like there's
Speaker 1: three at least three major transformations that are part of
Speaker 1: this narrative. It's funny when you look at research on
Speaker 1: you or you know, articles about you, they tend to
Speaker 1: focus on this this one transformation from alcoholism to an
Speaker 1: elite athlete. But I like to look at more you know,
Speaker 1: nuanced level of things. And this is the Psychology podcast.
Speaker 1: So I was hoping we could chat today and kind
Speaker 1: of do a case study of ritual and what those
Speaker 1: lessons can offer to anyone aspiring to greatness. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: sounds great. I'm all about it. Like the more we
Speaker 1: can make this a therapy session, the better. Well, let's
Speaker 1: do it. I'll treat you like a patient. You know.
Speaker 1: One thing I'm really a big fan of in moving
Speaker 1: this the psychology direction, the whole field of psychology more
Speaker 1: into a more positive psychology direction, So not focusing entirely
Speaker 1: on what's wrong with someone or going from negative fifty
Speaker 1: to zero, but what is it to go from zero
Speaker 1: to positive fifty? Right? And when I was looking at
Speaker 1: your story, you know, I'll just tell you the three
Speaker 1: major transformations I saw, and I'd love to hear you
Speaker 1: tell me what you think of that. So it seems
Speaker 1: like there was this one big transformation where you you
Speaker 1: decided you were an alcoholic, you know, you were an alcoholic,
Speaker 1: and you went through you decided enough was enough. You
Speaker 1: the Rubbert met the road, you know, at a certain point,
Speaker 1: I believe you were in jail. You found yourself in
Speaker 1: jail at one point and you're like, you know, enough
Speaker 1: is enough with this, and you went through the steps
Speaker 1: and the commitment to not be an alcoholic. But then
Speaker 1: it seemed like there was this period of about ten
Speaker 1: years between your thirties and forties. We were a lawyer.
Speaker 1: You were not an alcoholic, but you were still kind
Speaker 1: of transferring addiction from one thing to another. So you
Speaker 1: weren't an alcoholic anymore, but it seems like you were
Speaker 1: still addicted to something, you know, and it maybe success,
Speaker 1: maybe money. And I'd love to hear more about what
Speaker 1: you thought you were addicted to and how you would
Speaker 1: put it. From your thirties to forties and then in
Speaker 1: your early forties, it seemed like there was a third transformation,
Speaker 1: and that's the one I really want to you know,
Speaker 1: after we cover the first, I really want to nail
Speaker 1: what is this this new transformation, because that's not in
Speaker 1: the stories about you. That's you know, when I read
Speaker 1: these kind of journal articles about you, they again they
Speaker 1: seem to focus so much on from alcoholism to endurance athlete.
Speaker 1: But there's this third, you know, awakening that I that
Speaker 1: I see you have having now and I'd love to
Speaker 1: discuss that. So let's start focusing on the first transformation.
Speaker 1: So can you tell me a little bit more about
Speaker 1: why you decided and what and how you got that
Speaker 1: will to once and for all overcome the alcoholism, well
Speaker 1: as any good recovering alcoholic will tell you, you you know,
Speaker 1: alcoholism tends to move. It's not a linear progression, but
Speaker 1: it tends to move, and you know, in one direction,
Speaker 1: as they say in the rooms, you either end up
Speaker 1: in jail or an institution or death. And I had,
Speaker 1: you know, checked two of those boxes. There was only
Speaker 1: one left. I was holding on to it desperately for
Speaker 1: life though, because it was my best friend and it
Speaker 1: was my coping mechanism and I couldn't imagine life without it.
Speaker 1: And I had gone through, you know, some trauma with
Speaker 1: a marriage that got fit, that failed, and despite you know,
Speaker 1: my life kind of falling apart around me and people
Speaker 1: fleeing from the hills, I refused to, you know, basically
Speaker 1: deal with this problem that that you know, was so
Speaker 1: evident and leading me into a pretty dark place. And
Speaker 1: at the end, you know, there's nothing sexy or romantic
Speaker 1: about it. I was just alone, you know, in kind
Speaker 1: of a sad apartment, drinking by myself around the clock,
Speaker 1: with nobody to call and nobody calling on me. And ultimately,
Speaker 1: you know, I woke up one day and it wasn't
Speaker 1: you know, I was hungover, but it wasn't that different
Speaker 1: from many many other days, similar days. But I just
Speaker 1: had had enough, Like the switch got flicked and I
Speaker 1: was like, I cannot live this way anymore. And at
Speaker 1: the time, I'd been seeing an addiction psychologist, really and
Speaker 1: that that was an interesting, you know, experience that my
Speaker 1: parents didn't want anything to do with me anymore, but
Speaker 1: they did hook me up with this psychologist and said,
Speaker 1: we just at least go talk to this guy. And
Speaker 1: I did, and I was seeing him. It was so
Speaker 1: clear to him that I needed to go to a
Speaker 1: treatment center, that I needed to be extracted from my
Speaker 1: environment and placed in a more structured environment. And I
Speaker 1: didn't think that I needed to and I thought that
Speaker 1: I could solve this problem by myself. And I'm somebody
Speaker 1: who's driven by self will and in many ways had
Speaker 1: premised my life on my sort of workhorse capacity to succeed.
Speaker 1: And when I would look in the rear view mirror,
Speaker 1: I would say, I accomplished all of these things because
Speaker 1: I know how to outwork everybody else. I know how
Speaker 1: to solve problems on my own. There's no reason why
Speaker 1: I can't solve this problem myself either. And I was
Speaker 1: really reluctant to let anyone else in because of a
Speaker 1: lot of shame and other reasons that scared me. So
Speaker 1: I was in this sort of game playing thing with
Speaker 1: him where he would say, you know, I think it's
Speaker 1: time to go to treatment. I'd say, well, let me.
Speaker 1: I think I got it this time, you know, but
Speaker 1: if I relapse again, then we can resurface this conversation. Okay,
Speaker 1: Like he never pressed me because he knew I would
Speaker 1: go out and relapse again. And then I did, of course,
Speaker 1: And this happened several times. But eventually, me being this
Speaker 1: person who thought I was like a man of my word,
Speaker 1: even though I was this you know, bad actor and
Speaker 1: a horrible liar who couldn't show up on time for
Speaker 1: anything or you know, handle my life in any responsible fashion.
Speaker 1: After yet another relapse, I slunk back into his office
Speaker 1: and I told him, yeah, I relapsed again. And because
Speaker 1: I was such a man of my word, I said, okay, well,
Speaker 1: we'll do it your way, and I agreed, and he
Speaker 1: helped get me a bed in a facility up in
Speaker 1: Oregon called Springbrook Northwest. It's now been taken over by Hazelton.
Speaker 1: And that's how you know, I ended up in a
Speaker 1: treatment center. But I went into that experience thinking, you know,
Speaker 1: I need to get in and out of this as
Speaker 1: quickly as possible, because you know, I've got this. I'm
Speaker 1: you know, I'm a lawyer, and I have responsibility all
Speaker 1: this nonsense, right, But it wasn't until I got there
Speaker 1: and kind of settled in and realized, you know, just
Speaker 1: how dire the concert coints as you know, like my
Speaker 1: actions were like I'm basically in a mental institution. You know,
Speaker 1: this guy who walked the planet thinking he was a
Speaker 1: pretty smart guy, turns out maybe not so smart. And
Speaker 1: that really once I, you know, the fog clear, that
Speaker 1: really landed on me and I realized that that I
Speaker 1: needed to figure this out, and I became willing, willing
Speaker 1: to ask for help and more importantly, willing to receive help.
Speaker 1: And that willingness, I think is really what allowed me
Speaker 1: to not only gets sober, but stay sober. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: in the field of psychology, there's we talk about grit
Speaker 1: as though it's a trait, you know, this personality trait.
Speaker 1: And and what's interesting about this story, this at least
Speaker 1: this first transformation, is it doesn't sound like you were
Speaker 1: a particularly gritty person in college or you know, when
Speaker 1: you were when you were an alcoholic, you know, you
Speaker 1: were disorganized, you know, you didn't you weren't displaying those
Speaker 1: personality traits. Now. I don't know if it was a
Speaker 1: matter of maybe you were a perfectionist and some people
Speaker 1: go to alcoholism because they are so overwhelmed with the
Speaker 1: fact that they can't control everything, as they're so overwhelmed
Speaker 1: that they aren't living up to their highest potential. I
Speaker 1: don't know if that was part of it, But what
Speaker 1: is interesting to me is how you could almost overnight
Speaker 1: go from someone who doesn't appear gritty at all to
Speaker 1: quite frankly when those gritty individuals who's ever lived on
Speaker 1: planet Earth? Well, I do think that I am actually
Speaker 1: pretty gritty, and despite you know, my life kind of
Speaker 1: capsizing in that way for a long time, I was
Speaker 1: a very functional alcoholic and you know, was able to
Speaker 1: still you know, get good grades at Stanford and get
Speaker 1: into Cornell Law School and somehow graduate law school and
Speaker 1: get a job in a law firm and not lose
Speaker 1: that job. So I was balancing these two different worlds.
Speaker 1: And that grittiness, I think is something that I developed
Speaker 1: young as a competitive swimmer, which is really kind of
Speaker 1: what brought me to Stanford in the first place, Like
Speaker 1: competing on this unbelievable team of world record holders and
Speaker 1: Olympic athletes and NC TWOA champions, and as an athlete,
Speaker 1: you know, I had some modicum of talent, but I
Speaker 1: wasn't Olympic caliber. I was never going to be Olympic caliber.
Speaker 1: And any success that I that I had as an
Speaker 1: athlete was by dint of learning how to outwork everybody.
Speaker 1: So I was the guy in high school who got
Speaker 1: up at four thirty every day and swam for two
Speaker 1: hours and went to school and then went back to
Speaker 1: the pool for two more hours, then went did homework
Speaker 1: and was in bed by nine. And you know, by
Speaker 1: like learning how to show up and learning how to
Speaker 1: outwork everybody else in the pool, I was able to
Speaker 1: go from a pretty medium talent to somebody who was
Speaker 1: recruited at all these colleges, and you know, one of
Speaker 1: the outstanding swimmers in my region and you know, top
Speaker 1: eight in the country and my age group in my events.
Speaker 1: So when I was talking about self will, like, that's
Speaker 1: what I'm like. I understood how to will my way
Speaker 1: into a successful situation. And I think grit plays a
Speaker 1: part there. The thing with alcoholism is that grit doesn't
Speaker 1: work and self will doesn't work because it's very much
Speaker 1: a surrendering process of letting go, of shedding as opposed
Speaker 1: to kind of a forcing energy. Thank you. That makes
Speaker 1: a lot of sense, and thank you for that and
Speaker 1: that carverifcation. I mean, you know yourself more better than
Speaker 1: I know you. So it's good to hear about. You know,
Speaker 1: what were you like there? As even in high school?
Speaker 1: You know, like what how would you describe your personality,
Speaker 1: you know structure. I was a very you know, bookish,
Speaker 1: introverted kid. I was a kid who, you know, in
Speaker 1: elementary school, you know, was ridiculed and bullied and had
Speaker 1: an eyepatch and headgear, you know really and would get
Speaker 1: my you know, my beanie in the winter times at
Speaker 1: the bus stop stolen, and you know, just not a
Speaker 1: kid who showed any athletic promise whatsoever, had a lot
Speaker 1: of difficulty making friends and was kind of a sensitive
Speaker 1: kid and struggled, you know, and I think with that
Speaker 1: I just turned inward. And you know, now it's clear
Speaker 1: to me that the swimming pool was really my first
Speaker 1: drugg at choice. I mean, that was like a safe
Speaker 1: haven when I discovered that I not only enjoyed swimming
Speaker 1: but was pretty okay at it. That's where I gravitated.
Speaker 1: That became not only like my focus and my passion,
Speaker 1: but also my social circle outside of school because it
Speaker 1: didn't have anything to do with school. But when in
Speaker 1: my head was underwater, all that anxiety and sort of
Speaker 1: dissatisfaction or you know, those those feelings of insecurity and
Speaker 1: self poor self esteem were muted by you know, being
Speaker 1: underwater and being kind of away from the world. And
Speaker 1: I think that that's somehow related psychologically to the alcoholism
Speaker 1: and is still you know, something that I contend with today.
Speaker 1: I think that that, you know, there's a there's a
Speaker 1: relationship there between alcoholism and my relationship was swimming in
Speaker 1: the pool in that phase of my life. That's that's
Speaker 1: really super interesting. I wonder how how much you see
Speaker 1: that link among competitive swimmers. You know, I don't even
Speaker 1: I don't know if that's ever been studied. Well, I
Speaker 1: do know that in the in the endurance community and
Speaker 1: specifically the ultra endurance community, where you know, these these
Speaker 1: are kind of ragtag races where you know, there's no
Speaker 1: media and there's no prize money, or I think is
Speaker 1: people are sleeping in tents and they're running fifty miles
Speaker 1: or one hundred miles. There's a lot of people in
Speaker 1: recovery that are in that community, lots of tattoos, lots
Speaker 1: of you know, ex junkies, and and somebody should really
Speaker 1: do a study on that correlation, because I think it's fascinating.
Speaker 1: It's there's something about you know, I think I think
Speaker 1: an argument can be made that that alcoholics and drug
Speaker 1: addicts are are fundamentally seekers, you know, spiritual seekers. They're
Speaker 1: looking for answers. They're doing it in a very unhealthy way,
Speaker 1: but there's something about this life that that isn't doing
Speaker 1: it for them, and they're trying to find out, you know,
Speaker 1: they're trying to they're seeking for a higher state of consciousness, right,
Speaker 1: they're doing it through a substance. But ultimately, endurance sports
Speaker 1: is you know, a different kind of template for that
Speaker 1: exploration for sure. And you see people in that community,
Speaker 1: in the biohacking community, you know, people who might be
Speaker 1: an interested in ultra endured sports, really interested in experimenting
Speaker 1: with new tropics for instance. You know, I wonder if
Speaker 1: it's a similar sort of seeking, you know, even though
Speaker 1: neotropics obviously aren't. It's not the same thing as alcohol.
Speaker 1: But right, yeah, I mean there's there is something to that.
Speaker 1: I think. Okay, let's go. Let's go to your thirties.
Speaker 1: You're in your thirties, you become a lawyer. What is
Speaker 1: the transformation there, you know, from immediately from not being
Speaker 1: an alcoholic anymore, in an entering adulthood, entering a profession. Well,
Speaker 1: I kind of emerged from the treatment center where I
Speaker 1: lived for one hundred days. I was in treatment for
Speaker 1: quite a long period of time, and when I emerged
Speaker 1: from that, it was scary, like, now I have to
Speaker 1: go back into the world. My law firm had been
Speaker 1: very supportive of me during that time, but I had
Speaker 1: to go back and work there, you know, after having
Speaker 1: this transformative experience. So I took my tool of things
Speaker 1: that I learned and returned to Los Angeles and made
Speaker 1: sobriety my number one priority. Like basically, you know, completely
Speaker 1: immersed myself in the AA community here in town, going
Speaker 1: to two meetings a day and working with newcomers and
Speaker 1: getting a sponsor and just making a whole I needed
Speaker 1: a whole new set of friends, like I had to
Speaker 1: completely overhaul my my social circle. At the same time,
Speaker 1: I was very intent on making up for lost time
Speaker 1: and you know, re establishing myself as an upwardly mobile,
Speaker 1: you know, responsible professional, and I think I put a
Speaker 1: lot of pressure on myself. Some of that pressure emanates
Speaker 1: from parental expectations. I grew up in a household where
Speaker 1: my you know, it was very education focused place, and
Speaker 1: my dad's a successful lawyer, and there was he was
Speaker 1: never like a you know, it wasn't like a super
Speaker 1: intense environment, but there was just kind of this air,
Speaker 1: you know that Okay, you're these are the things that
Speaker 1: you're going to do in the world. And I was
Speaker 1: trying to live up to those expectations. And also you
Speaker 1: had a lot of shame because as a young person,
Speaker 1: you know, when I was eighteen, I was, you know,
Speaker 1: one of the best swimmers in the country. I got
Speaker 1: into every college that I applied to. I got into Harvard, Princeton, Stanford, AMers,
Speaker 1: like all these places, and showed up at one of
Speaker 1: the greatest universities in the world to be a member
Speaker 1: of at the time, the greatest collegiate swim team ever.
Speaker 1: So the world was like my oyster. I mean, there
Speaker 1: were you know, I was like, you know, like I
Speaker 1: could have been you know, like the path was, the
Speaker 1: doors were swinging wide open for me, and there was
Speaker 1: a lot of like, oh, Rich is going to do
Speaker 1: something big in the world or you know, and I
Speaker 1: and then I screwed all that up and made a
Speaker 1: disaster of my life. And so throughout my thirties, I
Speaker 1: was trying to you know, recapture some aspect of who
Speaker 1: that guy was when I was eighteen, and so you
Speaker 1: know that translated into workoholism and my alcoholic tendencies. You know,
Speaker 1: I was still new in sobriety, Like I wasn't using
Speaker 1: drugs or alcohol, but I didn't have a mastery over
Speaker 1: the spiritual tools required to manage what alcoholism is, how
Speaker 1: it manifests in every other facet of your life. So
Speaker 1: you know, it workaholic, you know, panicked about finances and
Speaker 1: trying to make money and trying to you know, impress
Speaker 1: people with stuff and status and the like. And you know,
Speaker 1: along the way, never thought for a second like maybe
Speaker 1: I shouldn't be a lawyer, or maybe I should do
Speaker 1: something else, or what is it that you know would
Speaker 1: make you happy rich. I was just focused on achievement,
Speaker 1: and I think a decade spent trying to jam a
Speaker 1: square peg into a round hole and grinding my teeth
Speaker 1: and you know, just trying to make it work. Eventually,
Speaker 1: you know, I cracked, and it led to an existential
Speaker 1: crisis that basically developed in parallel with a decline in
Speaker 1: my health because I've been overlooking my well being and
Speaker 1: medicating myself with junk food and terrible lifestyle habits. So
Speaker 1: despite having been this swimmer in college, you know, I
Speaker 1: wasn't exercising really, I was just working eighty hour weeks
Speaker 1: and had put on fifty pounds and would hit the
Speaker 1: drive through on the way home or order the Chinese
Speaker 1: takeout in the law firm. And you know, when you're young,
Speaker 1: you can get away with that stuff. But you know,
Speaker 1: by thirty nine, it had really caught up to me,
Speaker 1: and so it all kind of came to a head
Speaker 1: shortly before I turned forty, where I had this moment
Speaker 1: walking up the flight of stairs to go to sleep
Speaker 1: after a long day at work and a bunch of
Speaker 1: cheeseburgers in my gut, where you know, I had I
Speaker 1: was two winded to complete that staircase assault and had
Speaker 1: to take a break, had some tightness in my chest.
Speaker 1: Heart disease runs in my family, and it was it
Speaker 1: was a scary moment where you know, for the second time,
Speaker 1: I had this kind of you know, moment of awake
Speaker 1: and this dawning realization that I just couldn't live my
Speaker 1: life this way anymore. And I think because I had
Speaker 1: that you know, awareness with my drinking and ended up
Speaker 1: in a treatment center, and you know, ten years had passed,
Speaker 1: and I was so aware of how dramatically my life
Speaker 1: had improved and changed by virtue of making that one
Speaker 1: single decision that I had. I think a hypervigilance around
Speaker 1: like it happening again, like I knew when it was happening,
Speaker 1: Like this is exactly like when I decided to go
Speaker 1: to go to treatment, Like I'm being gifted another opportunity
Speaker 1: to once again make some changes that could be significant
Speaker 1: in my life, and I think that's the biggest takeaway
Speaker 1: for me. I think, I think we're all we all
Speaker 1: are visited by moments like this, I think, but most
Speaker 1: most of the time they passed because we don't honor
Speaker 1: them as much as we should, or we're too disconnected
Speaker 1: from ourselves to kind of recognize them when they arrive. Yeah,
Speaker 1: So what were the changes you made in your early
Speaker 1: forties and what led you to running a five iron
Speaker 1: man distance? You ran five iron Man distance events in seventies.
Speaker 1: Is that right, right? On? Five different Hawaiian islands, five
Speaker 1: different Hawaiianians. Yeah, no big deal. So what led to that?
Speaker 1: So what happened was, you know, my whole my rubric
Speaker 1: is twelve Step, Like That's what got me sober, and
Speaker 1: that was what I was familiar with. I was very,
Speaker 1: you know and still am, you know, steeped in in
Speaker 1: that community. So in the wake of that staircase experience,
Speaker 1: I kind of was trying to leverage what I'd learned
Speaker 1: in twelve Step and figure out how to apply that
Speaker 1: to general lifestyle habits. And all I knew is that
Speaker 1: when I showed up in a treatment center, they threw
Speaker 1: me in detox for a couple of days until I
Speaker 1: sobered up, and I just thought, I need that for
Speaker 1: my life, right, you know, I need that for food.
Speaker 1: I need that for you know, basically I need to
Speaker 1: detox myself off off of my lifestyle habits. So how
Speaker 1: do you do that? Well, I thought, why don't I
Speaker 1: do a juice clanse like that seems to be things
Speaker 1: that you know a lot of people do. My wife
Speaker 1: had done it before. I'd never gone a single day
Speaker 1: in my life without eating solid food. So she helped
Speaker 1: me sort that out. And for seven days, all I
Speaker 1: did was you know, drink press juice and some bras
Speaker 1: like no solid food. And you know, my thinking in
Speaker 1: doing that wasn't that, oh, I need to remove the
Speaker 1: toxins from my body. I just needed to do something
Speaker 1: hard that would trigger the same emotions that I experienced
Speaker 1: when I was detoxing off of drugs and alcohol, Like
Speaker 1: I needed to do something outside of my comfort zone
Speaker 1: that would be difficult to kind of reboot my operating
Speaker 1: system and reframe, like so I could start fresh, like
Speaker 1: wipe the slate clean. And that experience achieved that, Like,
Speaker 1: it was very difficult. The first couple of days, I'm
Speaker 1: laying on the couch sweating, just like you would if
Speaker 1: you were trying to get off heroin or something. And then,
Speaker 1: you know, by the end of that week, I felt unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I had a clarity of mind and a body like
Speaker 1: a resurgence and vitality. And it was such a short
Speaker 1: period of time, and I think that that planted the
Speaker 1: seed that food really can be medicine, like what you
Speaker 1: put in your body actually does impact how you feel,
Speaker 1: which is something I'd never thought about at all, really,
Speaker 1: and that catalyzed my motivation to continue this search and
Speaker 1: also find a way of eating that would allow me
Speaker 1: to feel like that all the time, because the alcoholic
Speaker 1: in me is just thinking, well, I'll just do this
Speaker 1: cleanse forever. Like I got addicted to that feeling of
Speaker 1: what it felt like. I don't want to go back
Speaker 1: to food. I wanted to keep doing this, and my
Speaker 1: wife was, you know, had to disabuse me of that,
Speaker 1: you know, like that's a very alcoholic thought, and that
Speaker 1: took some time to figure out, like how you know,
Speaker 1: and it wasn't you know, I tried a bunch of
Speaker 1: diets and it wasn't until you know, I took a
Speaker 1: stab at eating one hundred percent plant based diet that
Speaker 1: I connected with what worked for me, and I've been
Speaker 1: eating that way ever since. And with that, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of renewed vigor that got me interested in physical
Speaker 1: movement again, which is something that started very casually. I
Speaker 1: had no desire to returning to becoming a competitive athlete,
Speaker 1: but very quickly, by you know, dusting off an old
Speaker 1: pair of running shoes and riding a bike occasionally and
Speaker 1: hitting the pool, you know, very casually, the weight came
Speaker 1: off really quickly, and the fitness returned pretty rapidly, and
Speaker 1: I was seeing incredible gains in a short period of time.
Speaker 1: And then I had an experience, like four or five
Speaker 1: months into this where you know, I dropped into like
Speaker 1: a crazy flow state on a run that was intended
Speaker 1: to just be like an hour, and I ended up
Speaker 1: running like twenty four miles, which was something I'd never
Speaker 1: I'd never run that far before in my life. I
Speaker 1: couldn't believe that my body could do that. I thought,
Speaker 1: you know, any any kind of athletic excellence was well
Speaker 1: in my rear view as a forty year old man
Speaker 1: at this point, and that got me interested in seeking
Speaker 1: out a challenge for myself and I think part of
Speaker 1: that was a little bit of midlife crisis, like, oh,
Speaker 1: what do you do when you turn forty? You do
Speaker 1: an iron man Like it's kind of a trope, but
Speaker 1: you know, me meets I meets this nagging feeling that
Speaker 1: I had that I never achieved my potential as an
Speaker 1: athlete because alcoholism, you know, really destroyed my swimming career.
Speaker 1: But also, and I think most importantly, for the first time,
Speaker 1: I was trying to address this existential crisis like I'm
Speaker 1: this lawyer, but like, I can't stand being a lawyer,
Speaker 1: but I don't know what I'm supposed to do with myself.
Speaker 1: I don't even know how to begin to unpack that
Speaker 1: journey of self inquiry to figure out like what my
Speaker 1: blueprint is or even what gets me excited. All I
Speaker 1: knew is that I really enjoyed endurance exercise and started
Speaker 1: doing more of it, and it was reconnecting me with
Speaker 1: this really just innocent joy that I experienced as a kid.
Speaker 1: These things made me happy and it was really just
Speaker 1: about that. But soon it clicked in that it's what
Speaker 1: we were talking about before, that it can be this
Speaker 1: means for spiritual exploration. There is something about being alone,
Speaker 1: you know, for an extended period of time with an
Speaker 1: elevated heart rate, you know, focused on your breath that
Speaker 1: triggers this you know, active meditative state that really allowed
Speaker 1: me to drop deep into myself and play with those questions,
Speaker 1: wrestle with them, and ultimately, you know, I endurance sports
Speaker 1: played a huge part in helping me, you know, figure
Speaker 1: that out. The success that I've had in endurance sports
Speaker 1: is not that important to me. It's the thing that
Speaker 1: people seem interested in. But when I look back on
Speaker 1: the things that I've done, They've all just been tools
Speaker 1: to help me become a better, more self actualized person
Speaker 1: so that I can be a better servant for others. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so thank you for saying all that. You know, it's
Speaker 1: really interesting to think about your addiction, proneness, tendencies, because
Speaker 1: it seems like it's a feature of you, not a bug.
Speaker 1: You know. My friends with of Colllerhood does a lot
Speaker 1: of work on flow. He said that flow is the
Speaker 1: most addictive state known to humankind. So it's funny because
Speaker 1: you're kind of saying, like, you know, I went from
Speaker 1: being addicted to then I really started to love the
Speaker 1: flow state, and I was like, well, I think you
Speaker 1: probably got addicted to the full state. But I don't
Speaker 1: think that's a I don't say that as a negative thing,
Speaker 1: you know, I say that as a this this is
Speaker 1: what I see with you, because you're an all in
Speaker 1: kind of guy, like you know, you you you don't
Speaker 1: believe in balance, you know, you believe in This is
Speaker 1: who you are. This is your authentic This is the
Speaker 1: authentic you. It wouldn't feel authentic to you. I imagine
Speaker 1: if I if someone tried to force you, and you know,
Speaker 1: like probably that's why the lawyer profession didn't really make
Speaker 1: you feel as authentic as possible. So whatever you're gonna do,
Speaker 1: you're gonna go all in. And and when one can
Speaker 1: put all these labels, I'm not a fan of labels. Rich.
Speaker 1: You know, one can use words addiction to describe certain
Speaker 1: states of consciousness, and it probably just doesn't even make
Speaker 1: sense to apply certain labels to certain things. But that
Speaker 1: feeling of the full state is, you know, and all
Speaker 1: the neurochemicals that are activated during that full state, and
Speaker 1: they give us pleasure, that give us a sense of tranquility,
Speaker 1: and of course it's going to want to make you
Speaker 1: return to it again and again and again, Yeah, one
Speaker 1: hundred percent. I'm definitely, you know, somebody who's never been
Speaker 1: able to crack the balance code. For a long time,
Speaker 1: I would feel bad about myself trying to figure out
Speaker 1: how I could be more balanced, and finally I just
Speaker 1: let go of all of that and just realize, like,
Speaker 1: it's not me, and why am I trying to yet again,
Speaker 1: you know, jam a square peg into a round hole
Speaker 1: with this, Like I am an all all in person
Speaker 1: and I'm going to stop judging myself for that and
Speaker 1: instead try to find a way to manage it in
Speaker 1: a healthy way. And you know, so the way I
Speaker 1: look at it is, you know, the pendulum is always swinging,
Speaker 1: and mine tends to swing, you know, a little bit
Speaker 1: further than other people in either direction, but it always
Speaker 1: swings back. You know. Certainly, I do love, you know,
Speaker 1: going all in on something, but I have many things
Speaker 1: in my life that are important and if those aren't
Speaker 1: getting attention, then nothing else matters. Everything is going to
Speaker 1: capsize around me. So you know, I can only go
Speaker 1: I don't you know. I have friends that who have
Speaker 1: been married for a long time and they found of
Speaker 1: size about the golf trip with their buddies in Las Vegas,
Speaker 1: and I think about living by myself in the woods
Speaker 1: and just being able to do what I want to
Speaker 1: do all day long. You know. Oh yeah, so I
Speaker 1: can you know what I mean, like, so I can
Speaker 1: go all in and nobody's gonna bug me. I mean,
Speaker 1: to me, that's bliss, you know, to a lot of
Speaker 1: introverts and just people who value solitude, that's that's bliss.
Speaker 1: I mean to a lot of people. This pandemic is
Speaker 1: you know, you're you're supposed to complain, you know, Oh
Speaker 1: it sucks that I have to be on zoom and
Speaker 1: I can't go to the workplace. But a lot of
Speaker 1: people are secretly being like this is amazing. I don't
Speaker 1: have to go outside too much and interact with humans.
Speaker 1: But it just seems like this, you know, this idea
Speaker 1: of authenticity, and it's not It wasn't a matter of
Speaker 1: like shedding things. It was a matter it was a
Speaker 1: matter of like becoming you know, who you were meant
Speaker 1: to be. You didn't like let go as much as
Speaker 1: I mean, you certainly let go. I mean that's certainly
Speaker 1: part of the story, of course, but there was certainly
Speaker 1: this you know, this authentic process that you went through
Speaker 1: was really like a process of acceptance in a lot
Speaker 1: of ways and integrating who you are. I talk a
Speaker 1: lot about the importance of integrating the dark side, you know,
Speaker 1: and you had this full acceptance that you're an all
Speaker 1: in kind of guy, and what an amazing like to me,
Speaker 1: that's a transformation itself for someone to embrace. Well, you
Speaker 1: know what, this is who I am. But I'm going
Speaker 1: to apply this and integrate this to higher values instead
Speaker 1: of other values that I've had in the past. It
Speaker 1: takes a lot of bravery. I appreciate that, you know.
Speaker 1: I still you know, I get asked a lot like, well,
Speaker 1: aren't you just still living your life alcoholically, like whether
Speaker 1: it's these crazy super long races or the other things
Speaker 1: that interest me, And you know, I always validate that.
Speaker 1: I'm like, probably, you know me. You know, it's like
Speaker 1: it's not for you could have your perspective on that.
Speaker 1: If that's your perspective, Like I don't drink or use drugs,
Speaker 1: I certainly can be alcoholic in my pursuits, but what
Speaker 1: is exactly what exactly does that mean? And when is
Speaker 1: it okay? And when is it you know, the moment
Speaker 1: to recal and the only way that I know how
Speaker 1: to do that for myself, because I'm a poor judge
Speaker 1: of my own behavior. Is to surround myself with people
Speaker 1: who give me feedback, who say, who know me, know
Speaker 1: the best of me, and know when I'm starting to
Speaker 1: get off track, so you know, I don't have those
Speaker 1: blind spots. What does off track mean? Is off track
Speaker 1: usually something involving ego. I mean, can you describe what?
Speaker 1: Do you know what off track means? Oh? It can
Speaker 1: mean a lot of things. I mean, yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: my natural disposition is to be irascible and grouchy and
Speaker 1: self serving and selfish and irritable and blind to you
Speaker 1: know the fact that there are other people in my
Speaker 1: life that rely upon me and need me and all
Speaker 1: the like. So you know, I have to be constantly
Speaker 1: reminded that or otherwise I'll retreat into my shell, you know,
Speaker 1: which is kind of like you know, in this pandemic,
Speaker 1: like you were talking about, is easier and easier to do.
Speaker 1: And you know, when I'm working my program and I'm
Speaker 1: you know, doing all the good stuff, like I'm I'm
Speaker 1: pretty good, but you know, I'm highly imperfect at all
Speaker 1: of this, and so I just think it's important to have,
Speaker 1: you know, friends and people that know you whoo, who
Speaker 1: you check in with that you tell the truth to,
Speaker 1: so they can say they can be the mirror you
Speaker 1: know that that I'm unable to see. So I'm want
Speaker 1: to give you a mirror that it seems like you're
Speaker 1: unable to see. When Lewis Howes was on my podcast
Speaker 1: about a couple of years ago, I asked him, out
Speaker 1: of everyone you've ever interviewed, and you've interviewed a lot
Speaker 1: of people in your podcast, I was talking to Lewis,
Speaker 1: he does this Greatness podcast. I said, who inspires you
Speaker 1: the most? And he said, without even thinking about it,
Speaker 1: he said Rich Role. Oh wow, he said, Rich Role
Speaker 1: was the kindest, most inspiring person who I aspire to
Speaker 1: become as a as a as a man, you know,
Speaker 1: as a person. And so there's something there's something interesting
Speaker 1: here in that, you know, you you find that some
Speaker 1: people who have this kind of self image on themselves
Speaker 1: is you know, you describe yourself as irascible as all
Speaker 1: these things. Those people sometimes having that self awareness is
Speaker 1: actually what allows them to create a value system in
Speaker 1: their life consciously and intentionally that allows them to paradoxically
Speaker 1: inspire people more so than those who aren't self aware
Speaker 1: of those tendencies within themselves. They're just tendencies that you've
Speaker 1: become aware of, and that has been a benefit to you,
Speaker 1: becoming painfully and without any self illusions, aware of it.
Speaker 1: I don't know, what do you think? How does some
Speaker 1: of this hit? Yeah? I mean I think you know,
Speaker 1: we're all victims of our character defects to one degree
Speaker 1: or another. And I've just learned, you know, mostly through
Speaker 1: being an alcoholics anonymous, to develop self awareness around those things,
Speaker 1: to own them and work through them so that they
Speaker 1: don't cause the kind of shame that leads to one
Speaker 1: trying to hide it from other people. Like, there's something
Speaker 1: very powerful about just owning who you are and doing
Speaker 1: it in a way that shows that it doesn't it
Speaker 1: doesn't hold any emotional baggage for you, Like, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is this is what I do. You know, Like if
Speaker 1: I don't do this, then this is how I act.
Speaker 1: And I think that's refreshing for other people because it
Speaker 1: gives them permission to be honest and it allows them
Speaker 1: to emotionally it's a breeding ground for intimacy, right, Like
Speaker 1: if you I always try to lead with vulnerability. You know,
Speaker 1: I don't have everything figured out. I've been successful in
Speaker 1: certain things, but if I really want to connect with
Speaker 1: another human being, like I have to be vulnerable first
Speaker 1: to give them the permission to be vulnerable. And when
Speaker 1: I do that, that's where true connection happens. And there's
Speaker 1: a difference between performative vulnerability, which you see a lot
Speaker 1: of in social media right now because people think it's oh,
Speaker 1: it trends, well, it's cool to be there's research on that, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's actually dishonest. You know, that's that's the antithesis
Speaker 1: of vulnerability in certain ways. So I'm always running that
Speaker 1: calculus and trying to put my ego in the backseat
Speaker 1: instead of in the driver's seat. And when I do that,
Speaker 1: I'm able to develop deeper relationships with other people. And
Speaker 1: I find that the things that I care about talking
Speaker 1: about tend to connect better with the people who are
Speaker 1: interested in what I have to say. Absolutely, And you
Speaker 1: do that in your podcasts so well to elicit stories
Speaker 1: from people. People aren't going to be vulnerable. The stories
Speaker 1: aren't going to be pretty good. Stories are not going
Speaker 1: to be good if they're not vulnerable at all. Right,
Speaker 1: you know, A lot, lot. That's a key component of
Speaker 1: a lot of the stories that really grab at people's
Speaker 1: hearts in a lot of ways. You know. Just to
Speaker 1: circle back to the research on what you're talking about,
Speaker 1: there is a concept called vulnerable narcissism that I study
Speaker 1: and have published papers on this, and it is a
Speaker 1: trait that people often talk about the grandiose narcissist, like
Speaker 1: the Donald Trump type of chest thumping narcissists. But in
Speaker 1: the clinical literature, the ones who end up on the
Speaker 1: psychologist couch tend to be those who are vulnerable narcissts.
Speaker 1: They feel as though their vulnerability entitles them to special privileges,
Speaker 1: as opposed to a grandiose narcissist who thinks that they're
Speaker 1: entitled to special privileges because they're great. So there's a
Speaker 1: whole literature on this. It's interesting. Got to I would
Speaker 1: like to read some of that literature. That's a sendit
Speaker 1: to you, Yeah, send it to you. So I'm trying
Speaker 1: to extract and doing research about you. I wanted to
Speaker 1: extract some you know, reoccurring patterns of things you talk
Speaker 1: about that I think really can inspire a lot of
Speaker 1: people and offer an example vulnerable vulnerable example of what
Speaker 1: one could be. So one area that I think we're
Speaker 1: both really interested in is growth and self actualization. You know,
Speaker 1: I've been on this project to bring the Human Potential movement,
Speaker 1: you know, from the Esslent era into the twenty first century,
Speaker 1: and I'm really committed to understanding human basic human needs
Speaker 1: and how they get in the way of self actualization.
Speaker 1: So one common area of interest with both of us
Speaker 1: is this idea of choosing growth. And I'd love to
Speaker 1: hear some more of your thoughts about this. But you know,
Speaker 1: you talk to ones and you said, every decision I
Speaker 1: make is moving me towards a drink or away from it,
Speaker 1: and we can build that principle up to everything in life, right, uh, Rich,
Speaker 1: I'd love to hear some of your thoughts about that,
Speaker 1: you know, because it's I think it's a really profound,
Speaker 1: profound idea once we start building that up to one's
Speaker 1: entire lifestyle. Well, let me preface this by saying that
Speaker 1: although I may choose growth, I do it begrudgingly. And
Speaker 1: that's truly, you know, only pain that that actually gets
Speaker 1: me to change any of my bs, you know, all
Speaker 1: these levers that we're talking about you know, in my life,
Speaker 1: were motivated by being in a sufficient amount of pain
Speaker 1: where the pain of my current state outweighed the fear
Speaker 1: of change or the fear of the unknown. Like it's
Speaker 1: just a weird thing that is human beings. We're so recalcitrant,
Speaker 1: We're so reticent to change our behaviors or our patterns,
Speaker 1: and it's not until we're, you know, in some crisis
Speaker 1: that we're even willing to entertain that despite the fact
Speaker 1: that change is available to all of us at any
Speaker 1: given moment. So for me, the best way to remind
Speaker 1: myself of that, or to kind of maintain some conscious
Speaker 1: awareness of it, is to snap myself out of this
Speaker 1: delusion that things are static. You know, we're all talking
Speaker 1: now about like when are we going to get back
Speaker 1: to things being normal? Like things are never going to
Speaker 1: go back to normal. And even if, you know, even
Speaker 1: when we get past the pandemic, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: ways in which we're society is now structured that are
Speaker 1: not going to bounce back to the way that things
Speaker 1: were before. There is no real normal. Everything is constantly
Speaker 1: changing and in flux. And the more that you can
Speaker 1: be present with that truth, I think the more malleable
Speaker 1: you can be, so that adage of yes, every thought
Speaker 1: that I entertain, every interaction that I have with another
Speaker 1: human being, over behavior that I indulge is either moving
Speaker 1: me towards growth or regressing me back to, you know,
Speaker 1: some person that I don't want to be. And that
Speaker 1: kind of mantra is really a practice in mindfulness, right.
Speaker 1: It's it's developing a greater awareness of truth, and it's
Speaker 1: about being anchored in the moment and not living in
Speaker 1: the past or future tripping. You know, it allows you
Speaker 1: to step a little bit outside of the stories we
Speaker 1: tell ourselves about who we are that so often, you know,
Speaker 1: most of the time, become predictors of what we will
Speaker 1: do in the future because they're based on some narrative
Speaker 1: that somewhere along the line, you know, we decided was
Speaker 1: important based on a couple events that occurred in our
Speaker 1: past that are so powerful in terms of outcomes. So
Speaker 1: the more we can hold those stories a little bit
Speaker 1: more loosely and provide space to create new stories, I
Speaker 1: think is you know, a way to approach growth and
Speaker 1: change in a way that is perhaps a little bit
Speaker 1: less intimidating. I love that, and constantly changing the narrative.
Speaker 1: You know, I want to ask you, have in the
Speaker 1: past ten years of your life, have you changed your
Speaker 1: own interpretation of your own life narrative in any ways?
Speaker 1: Because I feel like I almost interpret your story in
Speaker 1: a different way than the media interprets your story. And
Speaker 1: do you agree with the way the media always interprets
Speaker 1: your story? And these are sort of questions I have
Speaker 1: for you. Yeah, it's that's a great question. I love
Speaker 1: this question, and I think about this a lot. You know,
Speaker 1: if you read there's plenty of stories about me on
Speaker 1: the internet, a lot of them. Most of them get
Speaker 1: it wrong factoring so too, you know, and actually, yeah,
Speaker 1: factually they get it wrong. But also the story is
Speaker 1: sort of you know, I woke up one day and
Speaker 1: changed my life and everything changed overnight, you know, and
Speaker 1: it's like it's like not true, like my growth. You know,
Speaker 1: I was introduced to spiritual principles in nineteen ninety eight
Speaker 1: when I went to rehab, and then I spent the
Speaker 1: next ten years applying them, you know, very poorly in
Speaker 1: my life, slowly growing, and then you know, at forty,
Speaker 1: I was like, I need another change. I'm fifty four now,
Speaker 1: so it's you know, these things happen. They're like tectonic
Speaker 1: plates shifting slowly over decades to you know kind of
Speaker 1: you know, produce the person that I am today. Also,
Speaker 1: there's this narrative that adopting a plant based diet solved
Speaker 1: my addiction problem. You know, there's like all kinds of
Speaker 1: weird you know, ideas out there that that that get
Speaker 1: it completely wrong. And I think on top when I
Speaker 1: layering on top of that is the fact that, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm often on podcasts like yours and being asked to
Speaker 1: recount the facts of my story, and I always try
Speaker 1: to not just like I can easily knee jerk answer
Speaker 1: these questions. You know, I have a keynote speech where
Speaker 1: I tell my story over an hour and it becomes
Speaker 1: so wrote that I often think, did that even happen?
Speaker 1: Like it's just total bullshit, like you know, and I'll
Speaker 1: call myself out and I was like, that's not really
Speaker 1: what happened. Is that what happened? Like memory is such
Speaker 1: an unpredictable you know, it's just unreliable in that regard,
Speaker 1: and so after repeating it and repeating and repeating it,
Speaker 1: you know, I have to constantly go like, just because
Speaker 1: you said that ten times before, it doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: it's true if it didn't actually happen that way. So
Speaker 1: I am always trying to deconstruct the story a little
Speaker 1: bit more, and every time I'm asked, I do really
Speaker 1: try to, you know, mind my awareness to you know,
Speaker 1: remember it differently, not remember it differently, or try to
Speaker 1: remember some different aspect of it so I can approach
Speaker 1: the truth of it. But it's hard because after you've
Speaker 1: said it so many times, like what is true and
Speaker 1: what isn't true? I mean, certainly you know the facts
Speaker 1: that I've related are correct, but the emotional experience of
Speaker 1: that at the time, I'm always questioning whether that's actually
Speaker 1: how it went down or not. You know, making meaning
Speaker 1: of our lives is so intimately tied with the narratives
Speaker 1: that we tell about our life. And when I see
Speaker 1: you as I try to look as objectively as possible,
Speaker 1: not being influenced by what people tell me are the
Speaker 1: narrative of your life. This is here's one thing I
Speaker 1: noticed about you. There's something in psychology we call this
Speaker 1: is actually only really recent research. You know, people have
Speaker 1: talked about different paths to the good life throughout the
Speaker 1: course of human history, people have debated different paths of
Speaker 1: the good life. Some people argue it's happiness and hedonia,
Speaker 1: you know. Aristotle and others talked about you'd ammonia, you know,
Speaker 1: meaning and virtue. But more recent years there's been a
Speaker 1: kind of a third path identified that's just simply the
Speaker 1: psychologically rich life. And I wrote an article for Scientific
Speaker 1: American about this's called the psychological ritual life that I'll
Speaker 1: send you because I see a lot of it in
Speaker 1: your own patterns of behavior. You know, it's important to
Speaker 1: look at it's important to unearth beneath the labels. You know,
Speaker 1: we can get stuck by these labels. You know that
Speaker 1: it's funny people ask you that question, well, didn't you
Speaker 1: just convert your addiction to your podcast? And it's such
Speaker 1: a simplistic question because what you've done is, you know,
Speaker 1: you you have this rich drive for varied, novel exciting
Speaker 1: and challenging experiences. You know, this is this probably showed
Speaker 1: up very early in your life, you know, and and
Speaker 1: you've you've now integrated that and accepted it into something
Speaker 1: that's causing greater service to society than drinking alcohol. But
Speaker 1: you know it's couldn't one frame the story in a
Speaker 1: similar way and say, you just you've always had this
Speaker 1: yearning for the psychologically rich life, and and now you're
Speaker 1: integrating it more with your drive to contribute positively to
Speaker 1: the world. It's just become it's just become more well integrated.
Speaker 1: But it's it's couldn't that be part of the story. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean I love that version of the story. I'll
Speaker 1: take that version of the story. That sounds good to me.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think trying to Yeah, you know, it
Speaker 1: goes back to it's it's all been, you know, a
Speaker 1: slow journey of imperfect growth, and there's little inflection points
Speaker 1: along the way where I decide to start something new
Speaker 1: or do something different. But you know, it's peppered with
Speaker 1: me being identified as a certain type of person, like
Speaker 1: you're a lawyer, you're a swimmer, you're an alcoholic, you're
Speaker 1: you're a vegan triathlete now, And that was one I
Speaker 1: was terrified of being pigeonholed as especially you know, as
Speaker 1: a vocation. It's like there's a shelf life on being
Speaker 1: a competitive athlete. You know, I'm interested in other things
Speaker 1: and the things that I learned in health and nutrition
Speaker 1: and fitness and endurance and the like are just a
Speaker 1: part of who I am, and I wanted to continue
Speaker 1: that trajectory, and the podcast is a reflection of that.
Speaker 1: It's a dynamic, you know, living, breathing thing that's always
Speaker 1: changing and as you know, as a mirror into like
Speaker 1: what I happen to be interested in at the time
Speaker 1: or what I'm struggling with at the time. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: I think the really wonderings why identify how I see
Speaker 1: it in you is because identify it with it, you know.
Speaker 1: It's why I love doing a podcast as well. And
Speaker 1: some people might say, like the psychology it's so general,
Speaker 1: you know, like why didn't you pick like why don't
Speaker 1: you put one specific thing like the psychology of And
Speaker 1: it's because, well, I want to live a psychologically ritual
Speaker 1: life and that's just who I am, you know. I
Speaker 1: choose that over just picking one narrow thing and going
Speaker 1: in great depth, you know, you know, becoming more of
Speaker 1: a generalist and just ravenous curiosity. So I just see
Speaker 1: that in you as well. And I think the more
Speaker 1: that people can just accept that within themselves and not
Speaker 1: feel like they need to almost be an apologist for it,
Speaker 1: like I feel like you shouldn't have to be an apologist,
Speaker 1: and and what someone might do as an apologist is
Speaker 1: start to create narratives about themselves that almost are an
Speaker 1: apology kind of narrative, you know what I mean, Like
Speaker 1: like someone might I'm not saying you've done this necessarily,
Speaker 1: but you do see this sometimes in the desire to
Speaker 1: conform to society's expectation or of what's normal or what
Speaker 1: one should be. Sometimes people you know, sorry, well you know,
Speaker 1: I yeah, I know that I suffered from all this,
Speaker 1: and I regretful of those days as opposed say, well, no,
Speaker 1: those days were actually really important early understanding of some
Speaker 1: seeds of who I actually am, you know, like sorry,
Speaker 1: not sorry, you know, right, Yeah, I think it's a
Speaker 1: very it's I think it's a very common struggle. You know.
Speaker 1: I think we live in a world in which social
Speaker 1: expectation and external validation and keeping up with the joneses
Speaker 1: are all like incredibly powerful forces that drive people's decisions,
Speaker 1: some of which are you know, really critical life decisions.
Speaker 1: Which career am I going to pursue? Where am I
Speaker 1: going to live? What you know kind of you know,
Speaker 1: where what is where I'm going to live? You know
Speaker 1: what does the house look like? And I'm going to
Speaker 1: live like These things instead of being motivated by some
Speaker 1: interconnected awareness of what works for you, are really a
Speaker 1: function of what everybody else is doing. Absolutely so well,
Speaker 1: You've carved this, this unique path for yourself. And I
Speaker 1: always want to read an Abraham masm quote to you
Speaker 1: that I think you'll really like. I think we'll mutually
Speaker 1: geek out over this. He wrote, one can choose to
Speaker 1: go back toward safety or forward toward growth. Growth must
Speaker 1: be chosen, Growth must be chosen again and again. Fear
Speaker 1: must be overcome again and again. That's the quote, the
Speaker 1: Maswell quote, and that was the basis for my revised
Speaker 1: hiercheve needs because you know how, you know how, the
Speaker 1: static triangle or the how is usually present. He never
Speaker 1: drew a triangle, He never drew a pyramid. He always
Speaker 1: made the case that life was a two step forward,
Speaker 1: one step back, dynamic. Life wasn't like a video game
Speaker 1: where you reach, oh, I've got that sorted, and now
Speaker 1: I'm going to go to the next level. You know,
Speaker 1: you always have to choose growth. And I just thought
Speaker 1: that would resonate with you because it seems at the
Speaker 1: heart of a lot of your writings. Yeah, no, I
Speaker 1: love that. I mean, choosing growth is a daily struggle,
Speaker 1: like who wants to grow? I mean, you know, I've
Speaker 1: just had I've had enough of it, so I have
Speaker 1: a taste of how much better my life is when
Speaker 1: I when I recommit to it. But that doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that it gets any easier. And in fact, you know,
Speaker 1: I remember when I was newly sober, somebody said to me,
Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, the road narrows, and I didn't
Speaker 1: know what that meant, like, oh, you know, you can't
Speaker 1: once you get sober, okay, you get rid of the
Speaker 1: drugs and alcohol, but like, now you can't do this,
Speaker 1: and now you can't do like your life consistently gets
Speaker 1: stripped away because you become more aware of the things
Speaker 1: in your life that don't serve you and then you're
Speaker 1: asked to step up and address those and it's a
Speaker 1: never ending process and you know, it's relentless, and sometimes
Speaker 1: you know, I just want to watch Netflix, like I don't,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't want to deal with it, and
Speaker 1: that's the and that's okay too, right Like and then
Speaker 1: then there's like, oh, well, are you willing to forgive yourself,
Speaker 1: like you know, it's a constant process that I think
Speaker 1: we all grapple with in our own way, you know.
Speaker 1: I mean, you've become an inspirational figure, whether or not
Speaker 1: you set out to or you want to be. You know,
Speaker 1: the objective fact, no I read you know, you sent
Speaker 1: me your new book, and I've been devouring it. I've
Speaker 1: been reading it on the beach here Instem and it's
Speaker 1: you know, looking at the sunsets and inspire you know,
Speaker 1: I got all the additional things an addition of reading
Speaker 1: your book that that inspire me, you know, and I
Speaker 1: try to you know, I listened to like meditative music.
Speaker 1: So all these things are happening once. But but reading
Speaker 1: the content of the book and the stories that you've
Speaker 1: highlighted that are not stories about yourself, but you're you're
Speaker 1: transcending yourself by telling other people's stories, a lot of stories.
Speaker 1: You have said that what excites you the most is
Speaker 1: telling the stories of those who have not been heard before.
Speaker 1: You know, the underdog in a lot of ways. Right,
Speaker 1: So that's self, that sort of self transcendent motive that
Speaker 1: you have is is part of you as well. There
Speaker 1: is that there is that motive as well, where do
Speaker 1: you where do you think that you know? At what point? Like?
Speaker 1: When when did you? When did you? Because to me,
Speaker 1: that's the third transformation that I see. Remember we start
Speaker 1: off this whole podcast and I said, I see actually
Speaker 1: at least three major trans the third one I want
Speaker 1: to really zoom in on right now. It seems like
Speaker 1: you are entering more of this generative stage in the
Speaker 1: Ericsson model of human development, and the generative stage where
Speaker 1: you're mastery. You're not so obsessed with mastery anymore, you know,
Speaker 1: that seemed to be transitioned to right. Transition three tends
Speaker 1: to be more of wanting to tell other people's stories.
Speaker 1: But how do you see it? This is just how
Speaker 1: I see it, But I want to hear how you
Speaker 1: see it. Yeah, I mean I think that's fair. You know,
Speaker 1: the podcast is such a fantastic medium for sharing other
Speaker 1: people's stories, and you know, it was a medium that
Speaker 1: I got interested in. You know, I was a very
Speaker 1: early adopter as a consumer of podcasts when I was
Speaker 1: training for these races and would have to spend unbelievable
Speaker 1: amounts of time, you know, alone and couldn't listen to
Speaker 1: music all that time in an era where it was
Speaker 1: tricky to get put. You had to download them on
Speaker 1: your desktop and bounce them to your MP three player,
Speaker 1: like you had to be very intentional about it. But
Speaker 1: I fell in love with long form conversation at this
Speaker 1: same time, as you know, my investment in alcoholics anonymous
Speaker 1: was growing, where I would sit in these rooms and
Speaker 1: listen to people share their stories with extreme courage and
Speaker 1: vulnerability to an audience of people who would then embrace them.
Speaker 1: And it's really a transformative experience with being bearing witness
Speaker 1: to that and then being asked to do it yourself.
Speaker 1: And so I think, you know, I wanted to give
Speaker 1: people who aren't part of that community a taste of
Speaker 1: what that feels like. I wanted to be more expressive
Speaker 1: of that ethos in my own life and celebrate, you know,
Speaker 1: celebrate you know, people who, like you said, have incredible
Speaker 1: stories that I think are really empowering and inspiring that
Speaker 1: aren't you know, as well heard or understood as as
Speaker 1: I think they should be. And not make it about me,
Speaker 1: you know, it's not. It's not about me, but it
Speaker 1: is about what I can hopefully facilitate in that person.
Speaker 1: And it's about me in that I'm selecting these people
Speaker 1: and there's a reason, you know that I'm making that choice,
Speaker 1: and there's something that I want to learn from that
Speaker 1: person as well. So I straddle this line between you know,
Speaker 1: this figure that people look to for you know, I don't.
Speaker 1: I don't consider myself an inspirational figure. I think it's
Speaker 1: more there's there's an aspirational aspect to it, and that
Speaker 1: comes from people being able to identify some aspect of
Speaker 1: themselves and me, Like when you look at Lebron James,
Speaker 1: he's inspirational, he's not, but he's not aspirational because you're
Speaker 1: never gonna you can't connect with that guy because he's
Speaker 1: he's just so much better than everybody else, you know,
Speaker 1: at what he does that you know, there's a barrier
Speaker 1: I think that comes up. You can't emotionally connect with that,
Speaker 1: and I'm trying to connect you well, So what I'm
Speaker 1: saying is, yeah, I'm the I'm in between, right, Like
Speaker 1: I've done some interesting things that that that that you
Speaker 1: know in the athletic world or other things that people
Speaker 1: are like, wow, how'd you do that? But I'm not
Speaker 1: so advanced in that that people can't see some aspect
Speaker 1: of themselves in their own struggles. So like when I
Speaker 1: went I was very aware of that when I wrote
Speaker 1: Finding Ultra, like, I, you know, I'm not an Olympic athlete.
Speaker 1: I've never you know, I've never even won a big race.
Speaker 1: My story connected with people because I was willing to
Speaker 1: be honest and vulnerable about stuff that's like kind of
Speaker 1: scary to talk about and bring people in on this
Speaker 1: journey with me. And so in that regard, I'm more
Speaker 1: of a guide. Like I'm not the guy at the
Speaker 1: top of the mountain saying here's how you do it.
Speaker 1: I'm saying, hey, man, I figured out a few things
Speaker 1: I'm still trying to learn, Like come along with me,
Speaker 1: and like let's learn. Let's learn these things together. Oh
Speaker 1: for sure, that's what kind of said. Whether you want
Speaker 1: it or not, you're you're inspiring figure you. That's why
Speaker 1: I added that nuance when I was when I was
Speaker 1: saying this, you know, or whether or not it was
Speaker 1: intentional or not, you know, but you're living by example
Speaker 1: inspires a lot of people. One thing that's really inspirational
Speaker 1: people is the fact that you can accomplish such seemingly
Speaker 1: impossible feats of athleticism and you've talked about almost the
Speaker 1: mundanity of it. How mundane you know, it's all about
Speaker 1: taking little, tiny steps. And you made me think of
Speaker 1: this great article by the sociologist William Chambliss, on which
Speaker 1: I emailed you a right before this chat, called the
Speaker 1: Mundanity of Excellence, an ethnographic report on stratification and Olympic swimmers.
Speaker 1: My colleague Angela Duckworth, who studies grit this is our
Speaker 1: favorite paper. Like, we always talk about this paper, and
Speaker 1: we actually emailed William Chambliss and we're like, how's your
Speaker 1: paper not more well known? And I think you're gonna
Speaker 1: love it when you read it, because it seems to
Speaker 1: dovetail so nicely with your own process of accomplishing what
Speaker 1: seems to be so broad. So for instance, in training
Speaker 1: for an Ironman triathlon, you've said, you know, you think, okay,
Speaker 1: I'm going to have to get in the water, and
Speaker 1: then once I'm in the water, then I'm gonna take
Speaker 1: a lap. You know, but you see, one thing follows another, right,
Speaker 1: and this seems to dovetail nicely with the Chambliss's work.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts about this? Yeah, I think that
Speaker 1: that all great things are made brick by brick. And
Speaker 1: we're in a culture where we all want the overnight
Speaker 1: success and we want to expedite our way to the result,
Speaker 1: and the focus is so much on the endpoint, and
Speaker 1: there's not any appreciation for the journey or the hard,
Speaker 1: wrought like road that you have to trudge to achieve
Speaker 1: anything exceptional. And in my own life, everything that I've
Speaker 1: been able to be successful at was really something that
Speaker 1: started very humbly and that I showed up for every
Speaker 1: single day, fell in love with the process of the
Speaker 1: building of it, not overly focused with the end point
Speaker 1: of where it was headed. And you know, you wake
Speaker 1: up a decade later and it's a thing. You know.
Speaker 1: But I said this, I've said this before. I did
Speaker 1: a tweet about it recently as well, that most people,
Speaker 1: I think are very poor predictors of the timeline required
Speaker 1: to do anything exceptional. Like I think we wildly overestimate
Speaker 1: what we can do in a year and wildly underestimate
Speaker 1: what we can do in a decade. And I look
Speaker 1: at things in decade terms and then I forget about
Speaker 1: it and I just focus on what the thing in
Speaker 1: front of me is to do. So if you're running
Speaker 1: an ultra marathon and you're running out of gas. You
Speaker 1: got to break it down into the tiniest pieces, one
Speaker 1: step in front of another. Or you wake up in
Speaker 1: the morning and you don't want to get out of
Speaker 1: bed and go outside and do the run. Just sit up,
Speaker 1: you know, Okay, I sat up. Now, put your feet
Speaker 1: on the ground, you know. Just break it down into
Speaker 1: the tiniest little pieces, you know. I'm on five hundred
Speaker 1: and sixty some odd podcasts at this point, on a
Speaker 1: show that I started eight years ago. But when I
Speaker 1: began it, I didn't know if i'd do a second episode.
Speaker 1: I was doing it for fun, and then I found
Speaker 1: it to be creatively fulfilling and wanted to do it again.
Speaker 1: So it's really been a function of following my curiosity
Speaker 1: and just being in love with the doing rather than
Speaker 1: the you know, the results of the doing, and it's
Speaker 1: detaching emotionally, being detached from those results. I think that
Speaker 1: is something that we don't spend enough time focusing on. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would almost say that you're you're really enjoy the
Speaker 1: becoming even more than the doing, but I guess that's
Speaker 1: just a matter of semantics. You've inspired me to. This
Speaker 1: is my third week as a vegan. Oh nice, isn't that?
Speaker 1: It's crazy? Right? Like very cool? I said, you know, well,
Speaker 1: if Fritz can do it, you know, like, let me
Speaker 1: give it a try, you know, let me give it
Speaker 1: a try. How's it going since my third week? I
Speaker 1: get what I've done is I get delivery from Trifecta Nutrition,
Speaker 1: just the vegan plan and one hundred percent. I've changed
Speaker 1: my whole plan from because I do meal delivery, because
Speaker 1: I have Celiac, so I think eglod in free anyway,
Speaker 1: But I said, you know what, change it? I said,
Speaker 1: I called them up. I said, you know what ritual
Speaker 1: I learned, I learned about this stuff. Just change it
Speaker 1: all to vegan and I so, what are my thoughts
Speaker 1: about it? In week three? Well, I've cheated a couple
Speaker 1: of times, and we'll be honest. I love making cheese
Speaker 1: with nachos, So I kind of cheated once or twice,
Speaker 1: but I would say I had more energy. I definitely
Speaker 1: feel like I have more energy. It is good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: my head feels my head it feels lots cloudy, which
Speaker 1: is good. You know. So I want to see I
Speaker 1: want to see what I can do. I want to
Speaker 1: see give it. I want to give it a go
Speaker 1: for three months at least. What do you what do you?
Speaker 1: What are your suggestions for me? I think that's great. Yeah,
Speaker 1: give it a go, give it an honest go, and
Speaker 1: don't beat yourself up for those little missteps, you know.
Speaker 1: I think it's like you said with Maslow, It's like,
Speaker 1: this is not a linear thing. I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people with any kind of diet, you know, they
Speaker 1: have a weak moment and then they just you know,
Speaker 1: abandon the whole thing. So just use it as a
Speaker 1: learning experience to adjust and pay attention to how your
Speaker 1: body feels and figure it out. I think these these
Speaker 1: transitions take time, like your gut microbiome has to adjust
Speaker 1: to you know, a difference in the kind of foods
Speaker 1: that you're eating and all that kind of stuff. And
Speaker 1: just be patient with it. But I'm excited and I'm
Speaker 1: a resource, So feel for to reach out to me
Speaker 1: if you have questions. Thank you so much. That doesn't
Speaker 1: mean a lot to me. I'm excited too. I do
Speaker 1: get excited by these by new things as well, you know,
Speaker 1: like like extreme things. I'm an all in kind of
Speaker 1: guy too, brother, So yeah, I hear you. My last
Speaker 1: question for today. At one point you had said your
Speaker 1: motto is mood follows action. I was wondering, do you
Speaker 1: have a new motto for the for this moment today,
Speaker 1: the very very end of twenty twenty, perhaps one of
Speaker 1: the worst years in human history. Do I have a
Speaker 1: new motto? I don't know that I have a new motto.
Speaker 1: I think you know a good one right now, because
Speaker 1: we're measuring this year against our expectations of what we
Speaker 1: thought it should be, and we're starting to think about
Speaker 1: the new year and what we want that to look like.
Speaker 1: And my suggestion is to like let it go, man Like,
Speaker 1: let it go. Like in so many ways we're being
Speaker 1: forced to surrender, and it's uncomfortable. You know this, that
Speaker 1: we don't have the level of control over you know,
Speaker 1: so many things is like an epiphany for a lot
Speaker 1: of people. Right We delude ourselves into thinking we we
Speaker 1: have exigency over so many things that we actually don't.
Speaker 1: And I think this year made that made a lot
Speaker 1: of us very presently aware of that fact. So whatever
Speaker 1: expectations you have, whether it's when am I going to
Speaker 1: you know, things getting back to normal, or what the
Speaker 1: new administration is going to hearken, Like you know, I
Speaker 1: would just let it all go and focus on controlling
Speaker 1: the controllables. And those controllables are very few. They're what
Speaker 1: you put in your mouth, the thoughts that you entertain,
Speaker 1: and what comes out of your mouth. Basically like how
Speaker 1: are you going to behave? Are you going to react
Speaker 1: to everything? Or are you going to mindfully respond? And
Speaker 1: again it goes back to being in the moment, like
Speaker 1: what is the next right thing for you to do?
Speaker 1: And the more present we can be, I think, the
Speaker 1: more the better equipped we are to navigate whatever the
Speaker 1: new year shros itous. Oh that what a perfect way
Speaker 1: to end not this only this podcast, but also this year. Rich.
Speaker 1: Really cool, really really cool. I really admire you and
Speaker 1: I look forward to constiting the discussion seriously. Thank you man.
Speaker 1: It was great, and I look forward to doing the
Speaker 1: podcast with YouTube when it's time. It's right. Sounds good, Rich,
Speaker 1: I really look forward to that. All right, We'll have
Speaker 1: a have a good one and happy New Year yourself
Speaker 1: as well. Enjoy your holiday. Great cool, all right, Scott,
Speaker 1: thanks brothering, thanks for listening to this episode of the
Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast. If you'd like to react in some way
Speaker 1: to something you heard. I encourage you to join in
Speaker 1: the discussion at the Psychology podcast dot com. That's the
Speaker 1: Psychology podcast dot com. Also, please add a reading and
Speaker 1: review of the podcast on iTunes and subscribe to the
Speaker 1: Psychology Podcast YouTube channel, as we're really trying to increase
Speaker 1: our viewership on YouTube. In fact, many of these episodes
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Speaker 1: to check out that channel. Thanks for being such a
Speaker 1: great supporter of the podcast and today next time for
Speaker 1: more on the mind, brain, behavior and creativity.