Speaker 1: Baby show. I don't have a rundown, so I had nothing. Okay,
Speaker 1: thank you, well it wasn't on my side. People. Let's go.
Speaker 2: Wind down with Jana Kramer and I'm Heart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 1: One year and she's just Steve over here happy one
Speaker 1: year Julee. Yes, I can't believe it's been a year
Speaker 1: of doing this show.
Speaker 3: I know, it actually seems like it went really fast.
Speaker 1: It seems like one by really fast. But then also
Speaker 1: I'm like, are we still doing it? Like you guys
Speaker 1: still want us?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: Yes, please be sure sure do. That's where I'm like,
Speaker 1: my like, love me.
Speaker 3: If I open an US magazine, we'll see why we
Speaker 3: sure sure do. For Jenna and Michael, I mean get
Speaker 3: no matter what they say now.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm honestly afraid to sometimes say things now because
Speaker 1: I'm like, well I don't want this to get picked up.
Speaker 3: You e and thank you people, and thank you US
Speaker 3: magazine for now listening. The last one when they talked
Speaker 3: about Olivia col.
Speaker 1: I died, I was like, oh my gosh, Michael, now
Speaker 1: you're making the headline.
Speaker 4: What I have to say about that?
Speaker 1: Why apparently US and do care?
Speaker 4: No one cares, No one else cares.
Speaker 1: Well for it. I mean, people liked it, but no,
Speaker 1: I just it's been a year. And thank you Amy,
Speaker 1: thank you Mark, thank you Easton for for for dealing
Speaker 1: with us for a year.
Speaker 5: It's been our pleasure.
Speaker 1: And thanks for Mike for for jumping on board with us.
Speaker 4: I think that's why it definitely doesn't feel like a year,
Speaker 4: because you know, I came on what September. Yeah, so
Speaker 4: it's like, you know, we've been doing this since September,
Speaker 4: but you were doing it for several months before.
Speaker 3: Now I've known you for so much longer. So yeah,
Speaker 3: like I'm all mixed up in my time.
Speaker 1: But I love it. This is our one year and
Speaker 1: I just want to say thank you to everyone that
Speaker 1: listens to the show, because we could not keep going
Speaker 1: if we didn't have the downloads.
Speaker 3: So and the emails they make me cry and laugh
Speaker 3: and because I get them first and then I send
Speaker 3: them to you guys, and it's like these people are
Speaker 3: the coolest and they're so open and willing to share,
Speaker 3: and it just even if you don't get a response,
Speaker 3: we read them all and it means so much. I
Speaker 3: try to respond to everybody.
Speaker 1: Yeah, our wind Down listeners are the best, so do
Speaker 1: you want to thank you guys? What's the big announcement?
Speaker 1: We have a big announcement.
Speaker 5: Do you know that?
Speaker 4: Do I need to make the big announcement?
Speaker 3: Should Mark do the big announcement?
Speaker 6: And everyone's like, okay, exciting, exciting, Well, wind Down with
Speaker 6: Jana Kramer is getting a name change.
Speaker 1: It is it's called basectomies with It's called sex talk
Speaker 1: with Jana Huke. No, that's it. It's going to be
Speaker 1: wind Down with Jana Kramer and my Cussinday.
Speaker 3: A very big debate because I call you Michael and Mike,
Speaker 3: like it just sort of switches off depending on kind
Speaker 3: of like I don't know what what do you like?
Speaker 1: He should be God?
Speaker 4: Actually I actually go by John my middle name. What No.
Speaker 4: I think it's because you know, you are affiliate affiliated
Speaker 4: with Jenna and she always calls me Michael, right, So
Speaker 4: that's how like you know me is specifically through Jena initially,
Speaker 4: and she calls me Michael. No one else really calls
Speaker 4: me Michael. I respond to whatever, what should we put
Speaker 4: on the logo?
Speaker 1: Because because we're changing the name.
Speaker 4: Thing now, we have a dilemma, what do you want
Speaker 4: to what do.
Speaker 1: You want I don't know what I think, my think,
Speaker 1: just it's your formal.
Speaker 3: Oh no, I say gonna say.
Speaker 5: Just Mike, the Mike cousin. It is hard to say
Speaker 5: it should.
Speaker 3: Be Michael, Okay, this is PTSD the visectomy, because nothing
Speaker 3: was more uncomfortable than the fact that you'd have the
Speaker 3: seck to me, and Jana was like, I'm not sure
Speaker 3: we should have done it, and I'm.
Speaker 4: Like, right, classic Janne.
Speaker 3: I was in the room looking at Mark like this
Speaker 3: is happening right now because he had it.
Speaker 4: That's my wife. That is my wife. Everything she second
Speaker 4: guests were every trip, every plane trip that we have,
Speaker 4: we'll be sitting there waiting to get on the plane.
Speaker 4: Jane's like, should we have done a different flight? Should
Speaker 4: we have left like earlier? Should we have left later?
Speaker 4: She can't. It's physically impossible for her not to make
Speaker 4: her comment about should we have taken this?
Speaker 3: Like it went wrong with your flight home from Scotland.
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna lie. Look, something looked bad when I
Speaker 3: saw Janna on.
Speaker 1: The floor of the airport. But I was on the floor.
Speaker 3: I thought you were just sitting on the floor waiting.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I was. We were waiting and then the
Speaker 1: entire time. I was like, we shouldn't have taken this flight,
Speaker 1: and I'm looking at other flights. He's like, you physically
Speaker 1: cannot get like stay on the same flight.
Speaker 4: She's like, should we just flown down straight out of
Speaker 4: LA Because we didn't, because we went some Seattle then
Speaker 4: went over.
Speaker 1: We tried to save some money.
Speaker 4: It was significantly cheaper. But then Jana is like, so
Speaker 4: it's just I don't know, it's a pain.
Speaker 1: It's hard, but I have a hard time sticking to
Speaker 1: my TRAPA plants or Mike. What do you wanted to be? Ben?
Speaker 4: I think Mark? I thought Mark. Bret brought up a
Speaker 4: great point. Michael just flows better. And actually, when I
Speaker 4: talk to people on the phone and asked me my name,
Speaker 4: I say Michael Cosson. Because I've said Mike cost him
Speaker 4: too much. People call me Mark, people call me Matt.
Speaker 4: It's just because that back.
Speaker 1: To back people call you Matt from Mike.
Speaker 4: Don't ask me. I those people, it's their fault.
Speaker 1: It's like the lady that yesterday the airport called me Juna.
Speaker 1: I go, where in your right brain.
Speaker 4: Does Jana wanted? This is the lady that takes our
Speaker 4: ticket before we walk down the tarmac. Janda wanted to stop,
Speaker 4: turn around and go ask her.
Speaker 1: I'm like, just keep walking, you like it, says Jana,
Speaker 1: So like, uh is a Juna. I didn't get that one.
Speaker 1: I'll get I'll get Jana.
Speaker 3: I'm with all the other back congratulations.
Speaker 1: All right, So it's now officially wind down with Jana,
Speaker 1: Kramer and Michael. I'd really stuck if we lost like
Speaker 1: a lot of listeners.
Speaker 3: So now if you two can just get into a
Speaker 3: big fight and maybe jam fries, we're.
Speaker 1: Off to a good start off to right. So you know,
Speaker 1: I just feel like we you know, Mike's been on
Speaker 1: since September obviously, because you know, Miss Jen is so
Speaker 1: busy with Ryan and everything else, and you know, with
Speaker 1: Michael and what we have and what we're doing and
Speaker 1: wanting to do and helping people. And I'm like, it
Speaker 1: shouldn't just be my name on there. So I do
Speaker 1: love my.
Speaker 4: Saying Diva Hatted saying I want my name on there too.
Speaker 5: I actually.
Speaker 3: He did not do that. I don't think.
Speaker 1: I just I just care about him and I want him,
Speaker 1: you know, to he he deserves to have his name
Speaker 1: up there too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, we're very grateful to you guys for being
Speaker 3: so open with no filter, and please continue welcome.
Speaker 1: We'll try, although I do get really scared.
Speaker 4: Though we don't have to try, we just have to
Speaker 4: try not to well.
Speaker 1: Honestly, the funny thing is when you were talking about Olivia,
Speaker 1: in my brain I was like, Okay, I know that
Speaker 1: one of the writers from E listens to the show
Speaker 1: because he's so sweet. And I was just like, I
Speaker 1: have to be careful because if I say I don't
Speaker 1: like her, that's going to be the like the headline
Speaker 1: you said, but I don't not like her, though I'm
Speaker 1: not saying I I'm just I have to be careful
Speaker 1: with that, right politically correct her. I mean, you basically
Speaker 1: called their a social climber, but that's fine. That was
Speaker 1: your opinion. So anyways, let's get to what you know.
Speaker 1: Like Michael says he wants to talk about the important stuff.
Speaker 1: That was what you said. You were like, I don't
Speaker 1: want to just talk about this celebrity. You wanted to
Speaker 1: and this is you know again, since this is the
Speaker 1: start of our show together, right, you really wanted to
Speaker 1: talk to this guy today and so Amy, our amazing producer,
Speaker 1: made it happen. Do you want to kind of give
Speaker 1: a backstory before we get them on the phone.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And to Jana's point, it's it's, you know, we
Speaker 4: want to talk about everything, but we realize what the
Speaker 4: listeners want to hear and what they want us to
Speaker 4: talk about. And so the guests that we're going to
Speaker 4: have on the show today very important for me specifically
Speaker 4: just because the names are Jason and Shelley Martinez. Jason
Speaker 4: is an author. He wrote this book titled Worthy of
Speaker 4: Her Trust.
Speaker 1: Didn't Shelley write with him?
Speaker 4: She did. Like Shelley's thoughts like throughout the book, she
Speaker 4: like kind of put her thoughts, her true sense, her feelings,
Speaker 4: and you know, wrote them down within the chapters. And
Speaker 4: this was probably one of the first books in recent
Speaker 4: memory that I've read like covered a cover multiple times.
Speaker 4: And this book was given to me when I was
Speaker 4: in rehab for sex addiction and really kind of sheeped
Speaker 4: my whole mindset around recovery, around forgiveness, around trust, around
Speaker 4: everything like this. This book impacted me the most out
Speaker 4: of any book that I read when I was in treatment,
Speaker 4: out of any workbook, out of any big book, out
Speaker 4: of anything, this was the book that I always referred
Speaker 4: back to. So personally, I'm very very excited and feel
Speaker 4: very privileged to be able to talk to this guy
Speaker 4: and his wife and express that to them and ask
Speaker 4: them some questions.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm excited too, just from like this the wife's
Speaker 1: standpoint with all of us too, and because there's been
Speaker 1: so many people that email us and ask us how
Speaker 1: we do it, and it's nice to see someone that's
Speaker 1: you know, we've been doing it for what four years now, yeah,
Speaker 1: well three years in recovery, but you know, sixteen years
Speaker 1: they've been married. So I'm I'm just super excited to
Speaker 1: kind of pick their brain because there's I know a
Speaker 1: lot of people that have questions as well on how
Speaker 1: to get through things.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and some of the things that he talks about
Speaker 4: this book that will ask them our art, you know,
Speaker 4: are topics that, whether addiction or not, any relationship that
Speaker 4: deals with any kind of infidelity you can definitely benefit
Speaker 4: from for sure.
Speaker 1: So are they in the phoner.
Speaker 4: Eyah, they are.
Speaker 5: Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll talk
Speaker 5: to them.
Speaker 1: Okay, sounds good. All right, guys, it's a last week
Speaker 1: to get your tickets. This week, the podcast tour Wind
Speaker 1: Down is going on the road. We're going to be
Speaker 1: in Alexandria, Virginia, May sixteenth. On the seventeenth, we're going
Speaker 1: to be in New York, and on the eighteenth we're
Speaker 1: going to be in Boston. So go to Janacramer dot
Speaker 1: com to get your tickets. It's going to be an
Speaker 1: awesome show. We're going to be talking winding down and
Speaker 1: I'm gonna sing a lot of new songs.
Speaker 7: Hope to see you guys there.
Speaker 1: Maybe you've considered a Sleep Number bed but thought you
Speaker 1: couldn't afford one, But can you really afford another restless night?
Speaker 7: Sleep?
Speaker 1: Well, there's never been a better time to save. I'm
Speaker 1: proven quality sleep now during the Memorial Day sale, a
Speaker 1: Queen three sixty smart bed starts at only nine ninety nine. Look,
Speaker 1: so many couples disagree on mattress firmness, And honestly, I
Speaker 1: laugh because Michael and I argued about the firmness of
Speaker 1: our bed all the time.
Speaker 7: I like softer, he likes harder. Wait, yes, let's just
Speaker 7: keep it about the bed. But seriously, though, we like
Speaker 7: different firmness.
Speaker 1: Okay, so with a Sleep Number three sixty bed, we
Speaker 1: can choose the firmness that is ideal for both of us.
Speaker 1: The Sleep Number three sixty smartbeds are so smart they
Speaker 1: actually censor every move and automatically adjust to you, keeping
Speaker 1: you sleeping comfortably.
Speaker 7: Throughout the night.
Speaker 1: Sleep Number has been ranked the highest in customer satisfaction
Speaker 1: with mattresses by Jdpower for twenty eighteen award. Information visit
Speaker 1: jdpower dot com. And I like to get practical gifts
Speaker 1: to my family, so I just ordered one for my
Speaker 1: mom for Mother's Day. Because my mom likes a soft mattress,
Speaker 1: but my dad likes a more firm mattress. Now they
Speaker 1: can both get what they want. And the good news
Speaker 1: is is their divorce so that works out perfect too.
Speaker 1: Come in during the Memorial Day sale and say one
Speaker 1: thousand on a new Sleep Number three sixty Special Edition
Speaker 1: smartbed for a temperature bouncing comfort at an exceptional value.
Speaker 1: You'll only find Sleep Number at any of the five
Speaker 1: hundred and seventy five Sleep Number stores nationwide. Find the
Speaker 1: one nearest to you at sleep number dot com. Slash Jamma.
Speaker 7: It's time for spring cleaning.
Speaker 1: Quip's got an easy way to start with your brushing
Speaker 1: habits just two minutes, twice a day. Can help pave
Speaker 1: the way to a healthier mouth and mind, and now
Speaker 1: the whole family can get refreshed with QUIP. The new
Speaker 1: brush is the same as our original version. It's just
Speaker 1: tweak for sized down mouse. Kids are inspired to brush
Speaker 1: better and more often with oral care that looks and
Speaker 1: feels at the products like the adults use in their life,
Speaker 1: and they're proud to use QUIP so help them develop
Speaker 1: a grown up routine without childish gimmicks.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 1: For Jolie, it's great because she sees me brushing my
Speaker 1: teeth and we kind of make it like a bedtime routine,
Speaker 1: which is awesome. And there's that built in two minute
Speaker 1: time or two which is Denis recommended.
Speaker 7: And another thing is.
Speaker 1: That you're actually supposed to change the toothbrush heads every
Speaker 1: three months. But the great news is they're automatically delivered
Speaker 1: on that Denis recommended schedule every three months for just
Speaker 1: five dollars. So it's just a friendly reminder to be like, hey,
Speaker 1: gotta check that oral health and it's time to change
Speaker 1: the tooth bread So Quip is one of the first
Speaker 1: electric toothbrushes accepted by the American Dey Association. They're backed
Speaker 1: by over twenty five thousand dental professions. So quip just
Speaker 1: starts at twenty five dollars. And if you go to
Speaker 1: get quip dot com slash Janna right now, you can
Speaker 1: actually get your first refill pack for free. That's your
Speaker 1: first refill pack for free at getquip dot com slash
Speaker 1: Janna g e t qu ip dot com slash Jana. Okay,
Speaker 1: so before we get them on the phone, though anything
Speaker 1: from Scotland.
Speaker 4: We want to talk about how unbelievably amazing it was.
Speaker 1: That was the best trip ever. I will say this.
Speaker 1: I feel like I'd put this on my Instagram. But
Speaker 1: we we live our lives for our kids, and I
Speaker 1: sometimes think that we forget to kind of nourish our relationship.
Speaker 1: And that was such a connecting trip without trying, without yeah,
Speaker 1: without forcing it.
Speaker 4: Without forcing it, without being like we have to do
Speaker 4: this and we have to do that. And yeah, like
Speaker 4: we just we didn't even end up having sex.
Speaker 1: We didn't. You tried, Yeah, you tried. He came in
Speaker 1: the room like because the time change was like really
Speaker 1: throwing me off to you. I was super tired, but
Speaker 1: you came in around like ten thirty. No, yeah, around
Speaker 1: like ten thirty eleven and you're a try and I
Speaker 1: was like, back off, Bola, Yeah, you're happening a pretty
Speaker 1: But it didn't like we didn't need to wasn't even
Speaker 1: about that. We went for the most oh by the
Speaker 1: way mark, we went for a walk in the woods,
Speaker 1: in the forest and Michael fell in a waterfall. Oh
Speaker 1: it was all for the picture and I was not falling. No, no,
Speaker 1: he wanted to go down in the middle of the waterfall.
Speaker 4: Like step on this rock forgine to take a picture
Speaker 4: from this bridge.
Speaker 2: Still get seriously injured doing this stuff for the selfies, I.
Speaker 1: Know, yeah there, And all of a sudden he slips
Speaker 1: on moss.
Speaker 4: Which I knew. I was like, okay, this is wet moss,
Speaker 4: It's going to be slippery. And I still slipped and
Speaker 4: fell luckily car so he.
Speaker 1: Gets like halfway. I'm screaming like Mia, Michael, oh no,
Speaker 1: And I mean I thought for sure he was going
Speaker 1: all the way down. But it was the most. It
Speaker 1: was the most beautiful walk back to the castle. It
Speaker 1: was just it was like out of Dress Park, how
Speaker 1: beautiful and green and just I mean, Lord of the.
Speaker 4: Rings meets Jurassic Park meets like a fairy tale.
Speaker 1: It was incredible. It was honestly the best and I
Speaker 1: I want to go back there for our ten years
Speaker 1: because you can rent out the castle. It's called the
Speaker 1: Dunsk Estate and you can rent out the castle and
Speaker 1: there's activities. It's a castle.
Speaker 4: It's in the state.
Speaker 1: You don't think it's a castle.
Speaker 4: It's in a state.
Speaker 1: Oh, I think it's a castle. They say it's a castle.
Speaker 4: They say a state.
Speaker 1: I don't want to show mark a picture. It's a castle.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure what what determines that it looks like.
Speaker 4: And analystairs called it. I mean they never claimed it
Speaker 4: to be a castle. It's in the state. It's a
Speaker 4: family state.
Speaker 1: I mean it looks like a castle.
Speaker 4: It's gorgeous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't think it looks like a castle? Really?
Speaker 4: No? This is what is it called?
Speaker 1: Look it up Dunske Estate. It looks like a castle.
Speaker 1: U n s k e y what's key? It's key?
Speaker 1: Are you still in Scotland, wifey struggle city?
Speaker 5: Okay, I think I think I think you agree with.
Speaker 2: Here's what it says. Dunsky Estate is an Edwardian castle
Speaker 2: well self catering accommodations, holiday cottages, blah blah blah, interesting
Speaker 2: Dunsky estate private castle.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it looks like a castle. It is a castle.
Speaker 5: That's really awesome.
Speaker 1: It was literally the most amazing. I will never forget
Speaker 1: that wedding.
Speaker 5: How long were you there for?
Speaker 1: Three days?
Speaker 4: Thursday? Really? I mean we were there Thursday, but that.
Speaker 1: Was just that was We were delirious the entire time.
Speaker 1: Michael's like driving two hours from the Glasgow airport and
Speaker 1: he's like, I'm.
Speaker 4: In a struggle city. Yeah, it was.
Speaker 1: It was brutal Friday.
Speaker 4: So really Friday Saturday was like two full awake.
Speaker 5: And no sex the whole time.
Speaker 4: Huh No, we just Janna went to bed earlier than
Speaker 4: really everybody every night, and I just I wasn't I
Speaker 4: didn't want to go to bed. I just wanted to.
Speaker 4: Like one night she went to bed and everyone else
Speaker 4: was doing like a whiskey tasting. I sat in this
Speaker 4: it's like their bar room in the castle. You kind
Speaker 4: of see it. It kind of felt like a uh
Speaker 4: like an old timey like country club locker room type
Speaker 4: of field, just you know, big beautiful chairs and couches
Speaker 4: and a big, you know, wood burning fireplace with a
Speaker 4: bar behind you and just I just sat there. I
Speaker 4: just sat there by myself, so relaxing, just drinking a
Speaker 4: coffee and having a drink and looking out the over
Speaker 4: like out the window over the estate. It was. It
Speaker 4: was unbelievable.
Speaker 1: I did have one panic attack the first night we
Speaker 1: were there. We hadn't slept in thirty six hours, and
Speaker 1: I woke up at eleven o'clock and everyone was still up,
Speaker 1: and so then I started freaking out, like, oh my gosh,
Speaker 1: the closest hospital is like two hours away, and oh
Speaker 1: my gosh, what if I pass out? And this and that,
Speaker 1: and then I was finally like, I looked out the
Speaker 1: window and I just I got a cold compress, which
Speaker 1: always helps me with my anxiety. And then I just
Speaker 1: laid in bed did some deep breathing, and I was like,
Speaker 1: I'm in a beautiful place. I'm okay. And then I
Speaker 1: went to bed and I was fine the rest of
Speaker 1: the trip.
Speaker 4: Thanks for not waking me up.
Speaker 1: You're welcome.
Speaker 4: I appreciate that.
Speaker 1: Should we get them on the line, yeah them both like, okay,
Speaker 1: right now, Jason Shelley, I'm here.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Hi, how are you great?
Speaker 8: How are you?
Speaker 1: We're good. We are so excited to have you on
Speaker 1: wind Down. We really appreciate it. Mike has been chatting
Speaker 1: with the producer for a while to get you on
Speaker 1: the show, so we're super excited that you both are on,
Speaker 1: and we just we feel very fortunate.
Speaker 4: Oh, thank you for having it, of course, and again
Speaker 4: thank you for making the time. And we gave before
Speaker 4: we got you guys on, I kind of gave the
Speaker 4: listeners a little backstory of you know, the book where
Speaker 4: they're worthy of her trust and the impact for me
Speaker 4: with that book, and I just wanted to share that
Speaker 4: with you guys too, because I admitted myself into rehab
Speaker 4: for sex addiction back in twenty sixteen. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 4: twenty sixteen, summer of twenty sixteen, and y'all's book was
Speaker 4: with all the literature and all the stuff that I
Speaker 4: read when I was in treatment, y'all's book was the
Speaker 4: book that really shifted and was able to change my life,
Speaker 4: change my mindset, and change just how I thought about things.
Speaker 4: You know, it was one of it was the first
Speaker 4: book and I don't even know how long that I
Speaker 4: read cover to cover multiple times. And a buddy of
Speaker 4: mine that were a guy that I became close with
Speaker 4: in treatment that still talked to to this day. Him
Speaker 4: and I when we got out of treatment, we always
Speaker 4: referred back to y'all's book and remember what they said here,
Speaker 4: remember what they said there? And it was it really was.
Speaker 4: I just want to thank you guys for writing that,
Speaker 4: for being willing to open up like that, because it
Speaker 4: just for me, If it's just one person, y'all's book
Speaker 4: changed my life for the better, which ultimately changed Jane
Speaker 4: and I's life because I was able to think and
Speaker 4: act a different way because of it.
Speaker 9: Wow, man, thank you, Thank you guys. That's really cool.
Speaker 1: So I guess I want to start with Shelley. Shelley,
Speaker 1: so you you confronted Jason right about infidelity?
Speaker 8: Yeah, so we did.
Speaker 1: Was it just something where you just you kind of knew,
Speaker 1: like you knew in your heart of hearts? Because a
Speaker 1: lot of people asked me, They're like, how did you know?
Speaker 1: How did you know? And for me, it was just
Speaker 1: I just had that gut feeling. There was a lot
Speaker 1: of things that were, you know, he was acting different
Speaker 1: on and there was just something where in my gut
Speaker 1: I just knew something was going on, and I don't know.
Speaker 1: Was that kind of the same experience for you or
Speaker 1: did you? Did you find things?
Speaker 8: Or yeah, you know I I actually I really thought
Speaker 8: Jason only had eyes for me. So in my gut,
Speaker 8: I knew something was off. Even the day we got married,
Speaker 8: as I was walking down the aisle, I knew deep
Speaker 8: down something wasn't right. But I never ever thought it
Speaker 8: would be betrayal. So, but a couple of things that happened,
Speaker 8: and at one point Jason had confessed to inappropriate relationship at.
Speaker 9: Work, And.
Speaker 8: Again a couple of other things happened which led me
Speaker 8: to confronting Jason and and so so yeah, it was
Speaker 8: I really never thought this would be my story. I
Speaker 8: thought it would be you know, the gal down the
Speaker 8: street or Homer, but not my story.
Speaker 1: No, I hear you on that. And Jason, did you
Speaker 1: did you? You know how long was that recovery process
Speaker 1: for you? I mean, I know with Michael it's you know,
Speaker 1: obviously we've had our slips and stuff and it's been difficult.
Speaker 1: But was it something where you were like, Okay, I
Speaker 1: need to I have kids and I have a family,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to you know, go through with us
Speaker 1: and be straight this way.
Speaker 9: You know, it was a little different for me in
Speaker 9: that we were early in our marriage. We were only
Speaker 9: a few years into our marriage. We had no kids.
Speaker 9: Oh wow, we had no I mean Shelley Sully made
Speaker 9: three times as much money as I did. We didn't
Speaker 9: have a whole lot of accets to our name. Like,
Speaker 9: it would have been really easy to just cut ties
Speaker 9: and go separate ways, and I think it would have
Speaker 9: been really easy for Shelley to do that. For me,
Speaker 9: the beginning was really wonky, and that sometimes I was
Speaker 9: trying to change and doing the work for me, and
Speaker 9: sometimes it was just to save our marriage. And you know,
Speaker 9: my motivation kind of it kind of it kind of
Speaker 9: what would you call that, like shifted back and forth
Speaker 9: between those Does that make sense?
Speaker 4: Oh? Yeah, And I.
Speaker 9: Don't think that's wrong or bad today. Some days it
Speaker 9: was for good motivation. Sometimes it's for better motivation. But
Speaker 9: ultimately it landed at I have to change because I've
Speaker 9: got to be a different man, and if that results
Speaker 9: in Shelley seeing something worth staying with me, then then
Speaker 9: that's kind of like the megaphonus at that point. But
Speaker 9: I ultimately realized I had to.
Speaker 4: Change absolutely, And you know, I was actually rereading some
Speaker 4: of the earlier chapters in the book this morning, just
Speaker 4: to kind of refresh my memory, and just reading the
Speaker 4: part of you know, Shelley, you justis covering and Jason
Speaker 4: your feelings after that, it just reading that it just
Speaker 4: brought up my own experience all over again. And it's
Speaker 4: amazing just the insanity and the pain that goes along
Speaker 4: with all of that. And I'm sure with you guys,
Speaker 4: even being as far along as you are in this,
Speaker 4: you know, you can still respect the pain from a
Speaker 4: sense of you know, knowing where you guys are now
Speaker 4: compared to them, you know, I mean, how impactful, how
Speaker 4: impactful it still is. And there's one thing, one of
Speaker 4: the many things that I love about y'all's book is
Speaker 4: the whole debunking the myths. The eight myths that you
Speaker 4: debunk kind of early in the part one of the
Speaker 4: book is something that you know, for our listeners, you know,
Speaker 4: obviously not everyone out there is a sex addict. That
Speaker 4: you know, any relationship that deals with infidelity doesn't mean
Speaker 4: that there's addiction attached to it. And what I love
Speaker 4: about those myths is that it's not really specified toward addiction. Obviously,
Speaker 4: you know you stuffer from addiction. I suffer from addiction,
Speaker 4: so we relate, but that aren't even in an addictive program,
Speaker 4: can relate to those two and one of them for
Speaker 4: me that I remember telling so many therapists into Jana,
Speaker 4: which is the second one. Just for an example that
Speaker 4: you talk about, is you know, for you is not
Speaker 4: acting out again is all it takes to build trust
Speaker 4: and that it's almost laughable to me when I say
Speaker 4: that out loud, because that's how I viewed relationships, That's
Speaker 4: how I viewed initially building back trust with Janna. I
Speaker 4: always told myself it's like, if I didn't act out,
Speaker 4: if I didn't do the things that I did, what
Speaker 4: would I ever fight about with Janna, or what would
Speaker 4: I ever fight about with any spouse or partner or
Speaker 4: girlfriend if I didn't if I didn't get caught and
Speaker 4: do those things. And then with you know, Jana and
Speaker 4: I trying to reconcile and everything, I was saying the
Speaker 4: same thing to myself in the back of my mind.
Speaker 4: I even used this to you Huntingdon's as an excuse.
Speaker 4: It's like, Okay, you're complaining about this, but I'm not
Speaker 4: acting out totally.
Speaker 9: And you know, to your point, all those myths that
Speaker 9: I write about in there are those role the justifications
Speaker 9: and rationalizations that I use, right, what other myths?
Speaker 1: So for what other myths that our listeners are there
Speaker 1: that you write about.
Speaker 9: Things like, you know, time heals all wounds, We'll get
Speaker 9: through this when she decides to forgive. You know, those
Speaker 9: are just a couple where those are just the things
Speaker 9: I was telling myself because I was in such a
Speaker 9: shameful place and in such a defensive posture early on,
Speaker 9: you know, I would say snarky things like that that really,
Speaker 9: at large our culture believes and like that's like, you know,
Speaker 9: those are common sayings in the context of marital relationships
Speaker 9: that are experiencing difficulty, and I hung on those and
Speaker 9: tried to use those as leverage to get Shully to
Speaker 9: do things differently and treat me nicer and that kind
Speaker 9: of stuff, right, And in retrospect, what I realized now,
Speaker 9: you know, fifteen and a half years later, is I
Speaker 9: was just trying to make me feel better and I
Speaker 9: was really disregarding her pain and her process.
Speaker 1: Of green There's no question then, absolutely hundred percent. I
Speaker 1: mean Mike did the same thing. It was honestly for us.
Speaker 1: I mean, he would be there would be zero empathy
Speaker 1: and defensive because in his brain he was just like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not acting out, so but I'm like and at
Speaker 1: the end of it, I remember we went to a
Speaker 1: therapist and I said, me, divorcing you now isn't going
Speaker 1: to be because of the affairs. It's going to be
Speaker 1: because of how you're treating me now, with the no
Speaker 1: empathy and the defensiveness and just that that, you know,
Speaker 1: the anger that it's you. You're not like feeling my pain,
Speaker 1: You're not there with me, and it's like you're not
Speaker 1: You're not sitting there with me and empathizing with me.
Speaker 1: You're just saying, well, I'm not cheating. So and that
Speaker 1: was that was I'm like this, I this is why
Speaker 1: I'm going to divorce you. Michael, like, don't you see
Speaker 1: that it's not because it's not because of the affairs.
Speaker 1: It's because of how you're acting right now, which was which.
Speaker 4: His zone was harder to accept because then it's it
Speaker 4: feels even more personal because there's not a tangible thing
Speaker 4: that I'm maybe a tangible event that happened, you know,
Speaker 4: it's just a it's just a series of actions or
Speaker 4: reactions over time. That's causing her to feel that way,
Speaker 4: which is almost more personal. And Shelley, I have a
Speaker 4: question for you. You know, one of the myths is,
Speaker 4: you know, he wouldn't do this if he really loved me.
Speaker 4: Just for you know, listeners and whether male or female
Speaker 4: that are dealing with that, like, what's your advice to them,
Speaker 4: Like what was your mindset like to coming to that
Speaker 4: place of realizing, Okay, oh he does still love me.
Speaker 4: Just because he did these things doesn't mean he doesn't
Speaker 4: he didn't love me.
Speaker 8: Yeah, I mean that was that was really That's a
Speaker 8: huge part of my process was because I really thought
Speaker 8: and Jana, I don't know how this how this worked
Speaker 8: out for you. It's and let me just kind of
Speaker 8: seguey for a second, Jana, you are beautiful. I mean
Speaker 8: you are so gorgeous. And so there's a part of
Speaker 8: me like, whenever you know, we were invited to be
Speaker 8: on your show, I'm like, oh my gosh, Like if
Speaker 8: this could happen to you, this could happen to anyone,
Speaker 8: Because for me, I felt like I wasn't enough for Jason,
Speaker 8: and I felt like if I had been I mean
Speaker 8: I kind of went through the list, you know, like
Speaker 8: I'm not enough. If I were smarter, had bigger boot,
Speaker 8: smaller boots, bigger butt, smaller.
Speaker 9: Butt, whatever, you know.
Speaker 8: But ultimately where I landed is if I had been sexier,
Speaker 8: this would not be my story and this is my
Speaker 8: fault because I'm not sexy enough. Fast forward when Jason
Speaker 8: and I went to the first therapist when we you know,
Speaker 8: after I confronted him and we shared, Hey, here's where
Speaker 8: we're at, here's what's going on, he turned and looked
Speaker 8: at me and said, Okay, Shelly, why don't you share now?
Speaker 8: What did you do to cause Jason to make these choices?
Speaker 8: And so that was just the fuel to the fire
Speaker 8: of me feeling like this is my fault and if
Speaker 8: and I know what you asked Mike was more about like,
Speaker 8: you know, clearly he doesn't love me or he wouldn't
Speaker 8: have done this. And so again, this was a huge
Speaker 8: part of my journey recognizing that these choices Jason made,
Speaker 8: while they did affect me and caused a ton of pain,
Speaker 8: they actually were not about me. These were about holes
Speaker 8: in his heart that and coping mechanisms and ways that
Speaker 8: he was trying to deal with the pain in his heart.
Speaker 8: In an illegitimate way, and it started well before he
Speaker 8: even met me, Yeah, and started in his childhood where
Speaker 8: he started to use sex and sexuality to medicate. But again,
Speaker 8: it really took me a long time to get to
Speaker 8: a place of groundedness and oh, yes, this has hurt me,
Speaker 8: but this is not about my inadequacies.
Speaker 1: I think that har thing though for women, because I
Speaker 1: mean I felt the same thing, you know the first time.
Speaker 1: I was just like, it's because I didn't have big
Speaker 1: enough boobs, or because I didn't dress sexy enough, or
Speaker 1: because I didn't wear the sexy launderda bed and so
Speaker 1: it was just I think that's where every woman goes
Speaker 1: is because we don't we immediately go they were you know,
Speaker 1: we weren't sexy enough, or we didn't have that sex appeal,
Speaker 1: which is unfortunate that we go there. But it's about
Speaker 1: going on the other side of it, you know, where
Speaker 1: we're at now, knowing that it has nothing to do
Speaker 1: with how we look or or anything like.
Speaker 9: That, and that too. Can I say something else about that, creez.
Speaker 9: You know, I perpetuated that too because some of the story.
Speaker 9: So basically, when everything hit the fan for us and
Speaker 9: Hulley confronted me. That was really the second time that
Speaker 9: she had done that. She had done it nine months prior,
Speaker 9: and I had lied and made excuses and then turned
Speaker 9: it on her. And I had told her, hey, if
Speaker 9: you would have more sex than have different sets, and
Speaker 9: especially if you would initiate sex, then we'll be okay.
Speaker 9: So she kind of bought all of that lie and
Speaker 9: then and then over that nine month period, she you know,
Speaker 9: she changed her wardrobe, changed her the way she talked,
Speaker 9: the way she dressed, the way she did things where
Speaker 9: we went on vacation. I mean that she went through
Speaker 9: and jumping through all the hoops trying to make herself
Speaker 9: different to fix me.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 9: And so I think for Scholey and Angel you can
Speaker 9: speak to this. I think when we hit the fan
Speaker 9: for real and we started into recovery, Sholey ultimately moved
Speaker 9: to a place where she was like, I've already tried
Speaker 9: to change me, and so that it almost like gave
Speaker 9: her a handhold to say, I've already tried to change
Speaker 9: me and it didn't work, so now you've got to
Speaker 9: change you. That was really important for us.
Speaker 4: I think, you know, that's just you saying that Jason
Speaker 4: is a testament to how impactful just listening you talk
Speaker 4: the way you talk, it sounds like the hook, you know.
Speaker 4: And for me, what was great about like how you
Speaker 4: how you deliver things and you talk about things, is
Speaker 4: you have like a this this innate way to like
Speaker 4: softly call out the mail, you know, the kind of
Speaker 4: call call us out, but it almost in in like
Speaker 4: an inviting or respectful way where it's not a shameful way.
Speaker 4: And so you like you're just saying, you know, I
Speaker 4: because I did the same thing to Janna. I tried
Speaker 4: to put it on her, like well, why don't you
Speaker 4: wear this? Or why don't you wear that?
Speaker 1: I'll never forget that. That was the worst thing ever.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 1: We were sitting in a restaurant and I was like,
Speaker 1: why don't why won't you sleep with me? And he's
Speaker 1: just like, well, why don't you Why don't you come
Speaker 1: to the bedroom with something on rather than just a
Speaker 1: big old T shirt? And I just remember sitting in
Speaker 1: the restaurant and bawling, and I left the restaurant because
Speaker 1: I was just like I thought that that was like sorry,
Speaker 1: Eve chegers me about like I thought that was you know, sexy.
Speaker 4: I'm sorry yeah, but you know, I'm really sorry that,
Speaker 4: you know, that's one of those things that I've appalled
Speaker 4: tenfold to Jana, and I see the pain in it
Speaker 4: right now, and I feel the pain because the unfortunate
Speaker 4: thing is, and Jason, I know you can relate to
Speaker 4: this is the stuff that we said, or the stuff
Speaker 4: that I said to Jana, none of that was even
Speaker 4: true when really the thing that I love the most,
Speaker 4: And now what's unfortunate is I encourage like my favorite
Speaker 4: thing that she wears is a big T shirt to bed.
Speaker 4: That's literally my genuinely and completely true, like that's my
Speaker 4: favorite thing she wears. But unfortunately, especially early on, because
Speaker 4: of the damage that I did in that moment and
Speaker 4: traumatize her from that, like it's hard for her, it's
Speaker 4: hard for her to accept my act my truth now,
Speaker 4: you know. And so we just put ourselves in the situation.
Speaker 4: I put myself in the situation where now I'm I
Speaker 4: have to like fight against my old self and what
Speaker 4: I said and my habits and behaviors and convince her like, no,
Speaker 4: this is actually genuine, this is actually true. Yeah.
Speaker 8: One of the most healing things has been when I
Speaker 8: am triggered or when something comes up and I remember
Speaker 8: the pain from the past to be able to vulnerably
Speaker 8: share that with Jason, Jana, just like you did with
Speaker 8: the three of us and all your listeners, and it
Speaker 8: was just so brave of you. And then for Jason
Speaker 8: to sit with me in that and to I mean,
Speaker 8: whatever it might be, whether it's to hold me or
Speaker 8: to just sit next to me, and to experience that
Speaker 8: pain with me is one of the biggest gifts that
Speaker 8: he has been able to give me on the other
Speaker 8: side of all of this. And so I just appreciate,
Speaker 8: Like Jana, when you got Kiri and I could hear
Speaker 8: the pain, I was like, Okay, Mike, come on right,
Speaker 8: you know, because I really think that that we are
Speaker 8: fifteen years in and these things still come up, and
Speaker 8: it is so important that I am still heard in
Speaker 8: that and it actually brings us closer together whenever we
Speaker 8: experience something like that.
Speaker 1: So, I mean, I know, you said you've been fifteen years,
Speaker 1: So I mean, is that something where it's you know, Jason,
Speaker 1: are you are you always consistently empathetic because I guess
Speaker 1: that's my fear where I'm afraid, because you know, we're
Speaker 1: three years into discovery. I'm afraid. Okay, let's say are
Speaker 1: in ten years I have a trigger that comes up
Speaker 1: and he's like, God, we're still dealing with this ten
Speaker 1: years later, And that's like, that's my fear that that's
Speaker 1: something that's going to come up, because it's it's not
Speaker 1: gonna I wish it. I wish it. You know, we
Speaker 1: can forget it about it. But I know that's that's
Speaker 1: that's so naive thinking. I know we're going to I
Speaker 1: know I'll have triggers, and you know, as long as
Speaker 1: I communicate it in a healthy way. But I'm afraid
Speaker 1: that he might get edgy about the fact that he
Speaker 1: still has to you know, deal with it.
Speaker 9: Yeah, well, so that, you know, one thing's important to note.
Speaker 9: So we're fifteen and a half years in, but Shelley
Speaker 9: not on the slow track, all right. We're like, I'm
Speaker 9: sure for y'all and probably a lot of other people
Speaker 9: like that, the process is going to be a whole
Speaker 9: lot faster than for us. We just we're just on
Speaker 9: slow track. So, you know, I've cycled. There have been
Speaker 9: times when I'm Charlie says, hey, I'm triggered, and I
Speaker 9: just kind of put my hand on my forehead, and
Speaker 9: I'm like, really still right, but but today, by and large,
Speaker 9: and Shelley, can you can score my report card on this?
Speaker 9: By and large, you know, I've internalized that and embraced
Speaker 9: that that that's part of our process, and it's important
Speaker 9: for me, for my heart, for my soul to love
Speaker 9: her well when she's triggered, whether it was justified or not,
Speaker 9: whether it's rational or not, like for me to enter
Speaker 9: into her pain with her when she feels that from
Speaker 9: here on out, it's just me being a good husband,
Speaker 9: regardless of whether I'm in a doghouse so to speak,
Speaker 9: or we're paying for past sins, like, it's just good
Speaker 9: for me to be a good husband that way by
Speaker 9: entering into her pain with her.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, and I completely agree with that, And I think
Speaker 4: you know, the way I've tried to, you know, interpret
Speaker 4: that as well, is that's an opportunity, you know, instead
Speaker 4: of early on it felt you know, which I understand
Speaker 4: why Janna would still have that fear because of even
Speaker 4: early in recovery, I would still have the audacity to say,
Speaker 4: because I was still stuck in the hole, I'm not
Speaker 4: acting out, so you should trust me. So I was
Speaker 4: still stuck in that mindset where you know, I'm not
Speaker 4: physically acting out, you know why, you know, why are
Speaker 4: we why are we dealing with this? And you know,
Speaker 4: let's move on. But now I try to and again,
Speaker 4: like you said, Jason, I think Jana can attest to
Speaker 4: the port card for majority of the time. I'm We're
Speaker 4: able to treat it as an opportunity to show up,
Speaker 4: and not just for me, but also for Jana to
Speaker 4: an opportunity for her to try to express it or
Speaker 4: articulate it in a healthy way, which doesn't always happen,
Speaker 4: which is understandable. And that's my that's my job to
Speaker 4: allow her the latitude to however she needs to express
Speaker 4: it or you know, let it out, you know, give
Speaker 4: her the grace to be able to do that.
Speaker 9: Right, and you think about, you know, whys that go
Speaker 9: through betrayal? Are are grieving? Right? You're on You're on
Speaker 9: the other side of the trail, and what you're doing
Speaker 9: is grieving. And if you think about this in any
Speaker 9: other context, Let's say somebody lost the loved one in
Speaker 9: a tragic accident, like, would we put a statute of
Speaker 9: limitations on their grieving? No, No, we wouldn't say, hey,
Speaker 9: in eleven years, you can't talk about the loss of
Speaker 9: your son anymore or the loss of your mother anymore.
Speaker 9: Like we would never say that.
Speaker 4: That's a great point, but yet.
Speaker 9: We want to do that to our wives in this process, like, hey,
Speaker 9: there's a point where you can't talk about it anymore.
Speaker 9: But if we see it as you know what, they're
Speaker 9: still grieving, and grieving is making sense of your story.
Speaker 9: And she's gonna be making sense of her story for
Speaker 9: the rest of our lives. And that's a good thing.
Speaker 1: Shelly, Why did you stay?
Speaker 8: That's a great question. I resisted saying. It took me
Speaker 8: like eighteen months. Maybe Jason might have a different account
Speaker 8: of it, but at least okay, at least eighteen months
Speaker 8: before I was able to say okay, I am saying.
Speaker 8: And the reason I stayed was Jason made it really
Speaker 8: really hard for me to step away from the marriage.
Speaker 8: He literally turned, he changed from the inside out, and
Speaker 8: I got to this place where I was like, well, dang,
Speaker 8: I don't want some other guys you know all of this,
Speaker 8: Like I liked who he was on the other side
Speaker 8: of this, and it's like, I mean, I knew who
Speaker 8: he could be and who God created him to be
Speaker 8: and then he and not that it was I mean
Speaker 8: we are on this flow track, and not that it
Speaker 8: has been perfect by any means, but he, truly he
Speaker 8: made it difficult for me to step away because I
Speaker 8: fell in love with the man that he changed into.
Speaker 8: So that's that's my faith.
Speaker 4: I will say to say something I'm sure Jana's thinking,
Speaker 4: is you know I've I've even since discovery almost four
Speaker 4: years ago, I've still given Jannah plenty of reasons to leave,
Speaker 4: whether it you know, still omission or any kind of
Speaker 4: line or relapse or slips or still more justification and rationalization.
Speaker 4: I've definitely give her, given her, you know, plenty of
Speaker 4: ammunition to leave in the fact that she's still been
Speaker 4: strong enough to see enough of a change at times
Speaker 4: to you know, still, you know, want to keep trying
Speaker 4: and staining.
Speaker 1: Is I mean you're holding on by the skinny skin
Speaker 1: skin that was.
Speaker 4: I was for a long time. I was, Yeah, it
Speaker 4: really wasn't since the last year that I I've really
Speaker 4: gotten sober. You know, it was just was it a
Speaker 4: few weeks ago, I'm about a month ago that it
Speaker 4: was my you know, one year sobriety and it's really
Speaker 4: been the last year that Janna and I have done
Speaker 4: the most amount of work.
Speaker 1: And I think that's when you tapped into your empathy though.
Speaker 1: I think that's where it was able to switch.
Speaker 4: Where I was able to, like you talk about a
Speaker 4: lot full.
Speaker 1: Of recovery too, where it's not just middle story. You know,
Speaker 1: it's like you were really like, right, I.
Speaker 4: Wasn't living in the middle circle. I wasn't you know,
Speaker 4: white knuckling things. I was doing the work. And you know, Jason,
Speaker 4: you talk a lot about shame in the book, and
Speaker 4: which again, whether addiction or not, people can attest to.
Speaker 4: And so I think I was finally able to let alleviate,
Speaker 4: you know, let go of a little bit more of
Speaker 4: my shame and tap into more of that empathy.
Speaker 1: Who was whose decision was it to you know, do
Speaker 1: the book. You guys have the Redemptive Living dot com,
Speaker 1: which I want to you know, tell the listeners to
Speaker 1: go to. But was it was it something that were
Speaker 1: you scared about coming out with all of it, or
Speaker 1: or you just kind of wanted to, you know, help people.
Speaker 1: I mean, what was what was your kind of thought
Speaker 1: process with all of that?
Speaker 9: You want to speak to that you want me to
Speaker 9: speak to that show, Well, we both can.
Speaker 8: I'll just say for me, early on, Jason was like,
Speaker 8: I want to help other men. I want to help
Speaker 8: them experience the freedom that I have. And I was like,
Speaker 8: good luck, honey, have fun. I'll I'll be over here
Speaker 8: a great time.
Speaker 9: I don't want anything.
Speaker 8: I don't want anything of that.
Speaker 9: No, No, it sounded more like this, I will not
Speaker 9: be the poster child for being betrayed.
Speaker 8: All right, that's right. Yeah. So initially I didn't want
Speaker 8: any part in it, and I was happy in my
Speaker 8: career and doing all sorts of other things. But there
Speaker 8: was just that still small voice that kept wooing me
Speaker 8: toward helping women. And so it's a bit about a
Speaker 8: decade ago that I started helping women by facilitating support groups.
Speaker 8: And so I don't know, I mean, Jason, I'll let
Speaker 8: you speak towards your desire to write the book. But
Speaker 8: for me, it was just I'll say, it was just
Speaker 8: hard for me to step into this space of helping
Speaker 8: others and putting our story out there.
Speaker 9: Yeah, that's not what I wanted. Yeah, And I had
Speaker 9: been telling our story more and more often, more and
Speaker 9: more frequently, and you know, working as working as a
Speaker 9: coaching counselor helping people in their journey. I always led
Speaker 9: with my story. So the book really came about as like,
Speaker 9: this question just comes up every time when somebody calls
Speaker 9: our office and says we need help. One of the
Speaker 9: questions that always comes up is how will she ever
Speaker 9: trust me in? Or how can I ever trust them again?
Speaker 4: Right?
Speaker 9: And so what what I found this is, this is
Speaker 9: my personal experience, is when I asked that question of
Speaker 9: people myself, it was always nebulous, like, well, work hard
Speaker 9: and one day she might then there'll be a miracle.
Speaker 4: And there was no.
Speaker 9: There were no there's no meat on the bone. Does
Speaker 9: that make sense? And so I just kind of started
Speaker 9: looking at what the heck have we been doing? What
Speaker 9: tangible tactical things have we been doing? What what wrong
Speaker 9: ways of thinking have I been operating in that haven't helped?
Speaker 9: And which ones have been right thinking that have helped.
Speaker 9: And so that was kind of what spawned writing the book,
Speaker 9: like let's give people tactical stuff to actually work on
Speaker 9: rebuilding trust.
Speaker 4: Which again, me personally, I will forever be grateful for
Speaker 4: that because it changed my life. And you know, it's fun.
Speaker 1: To tell the listeners the book again.
Speaker 4: Yeah, the title of the book is worthy of a
Speaker 4: trust and if you deal with any kind of infidelity,
Speaker 4: definitely go get it. And some along with that, it's
Speaker 4: you know, Shelley. I commend you a lot too for
Speaker 4: age up and on board with it and being willing
Speaker 4: and to adding your you know, your Shelley's thoughts, you know,
Speaker 4: throughout the book because again for me, even when I
Speaker 4: was reading it in treatment, which this whole world of
Speaker 4: addiction and all of my shame and all my pain
Speaker 4: and where it comes from, just I'm just discovering all
Speaker 4: of this, but being able to hear your thoughts and
Speaker 4: read your thoughts along with this again help me kind
Speaker 4: of decipher it and put myself allow me to feel
Speaker 4: a little bit more empathy and put myself into Janis
Speaker 4: shoes of what she might feeling. So I, again I
Speaker 4: speak for myself, I personally appreciate you being willing to
Speaker 4: step into that world and you know, give your two
Speaker 4: cents and help Jason with the book, because I don't
Speaker 4: think it would have been the same without you, honestly,
Speaker 4: and I can totally relate with how you felt about,
Speaker 4: you know, not wanting to be the poster child for
Speaker 4: betrayal or whatever.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wrote a book while I was starting to
Speaker 1: write a proposal, and Mike basically ripped up the entire thing.
Speaker 1: We got into a huge I mean, it was it was,
Speaker 1: it was bad.
Speaker 4: Yeah, Janna was was writing a book, started to write
Speaker 4: a book, and you know, wanted to tell like part
Speaker 4: of it because I wanted to help.
Speaker 1: I'm like, there's a reason why this happened, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's already out there in a way that he had
Speaker 1: an affair publicly. So I'm like, let's help people with this.
Speaker 1: And that was my whole because I'm like, this happened,
Speaker 1: people know about it, so let's show people how you
Speaker 1: can rebuild trust, how you can make this work. Where's
Speaker 1: the silver lining? And he looked at it as just
Speaker 1: like I don't want anyone to know.
Speaker 4: I looked at it as shameful, as just pointing the
Speaker 4: finger as put you know, I just felt a blanket
Speaker 4: of shame. That's all that I felt. I was like,
Speaker 4: I don't want people to talk about this. I don't
Speaker 4: want to put you know, gas on the fire. I
Speaker 4: don't you know, I don't want any of that. I
Speaker 4: wanted to just sweep it on the rug and let
Speaker 4: it go away.
Speaker 1: And I was like pleading, like please, like I need
Speaker 1: someone to help relate to me because I feel so
Speaker 1: alone and I know I'm not alone, and I need,
Speaker 1: I want this for other women. And it was it
Speaker 1: was battle.
Speaker 4: It was this battle until I was able to It
Speaker 4: was honestly when we doing the podcast that we started
Speaker 4: getting emails. Jana started showing me like direction messages she
Speaker 4: would get on her social media, and I slowly started
Speaker 4: to kind of get this validation that, wait, we actually
Speaker 4: can help people, Like maybe what we're doing is a
Speaker 4: good thing. Maybe Janna knew what she was talking about,
Speaker 4: and I can just get out of my shame and
Speaker 4: address it. And so it wasn't It was just a
Speaker 4: few episodes ago that you know, it was speculated for
Speaker 4: a long time that I was in sex addiction. I
Speaker 4: went to rehab and all of that, but it never
Speaker 4: came from Jana or I. So just about a month
Speaker 4: ago we decided on the show to address it and
Speaker 4: control the narrative and own it. And it was because
Speaker 4: on the show we were so open about our life.
Speaker 4: We're so open about what we've been through in our
Speaker 4: relationship that was like the one last skeleton we had
Speaker 4: in the closet that we hadn't talked about. But obviously
Speaker 4: it's a major part of our story, so it felt,
Speaker 4: you know, inauthentic to not talk about it. It's just
Speaker 4: another way to reach that much more people, that many
Speaker 4: more people that may be suffering from the addictive aspect.
Speaker 4: So we totally relate to that, and I totally relate
Speaker 4: to that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but seriously, thank you guys, Just thank you for
Speaker 1: being a light for us too, because that's this is
Speaker 1: you know, we want to help people and you know,
Speaker 1: you guys are showing the way.
Speaker 9: Thank you. It is definitely I was going to say,
Speaker 9: it's definitely a privilege, like to hear you guys say that, like,
Speaker 9: it's a huge privilege to know, and it's also, as
Speaker 9: you guys are experiencing, it's also a huge motivator. Yes,
Speaker 9: you know, to hear like that our story has impacted
Speaker 9: y'all then just makes me want to keep doing the
Speaker 9: work to get better and grow and make our marriage stronger.
Speaker 9: And it's like everybody wins when we get honest and
Speaker 9: authentic about that.
Speaker 4: There's no question I'm.
Speaker 8: Sitting here, you know, as we're talking. I'm looking at
Speaker 8: this quote. I have just put it on my desk
Speaker 8: earlier this morning, and it says, we suffer to get well,
Speaker 8: we surrender to whin, we die to live, we give
Speaker 8: it away to keep it. It's from Richard Rore, And
Speaker 8: just as you guys are talking, I'm like, I feel
Speaker 8: like this quote is you know, it's kind of speaking
Speaker 8: to what we're talking about, and just the importance of
Speaker 8: giving away sometimes when we when we share our pain,
Speaker 8: when we share our insecurities, gosh, just the blessing for
Speaker 8: others and and that's how we're able to Jason, what
Speaker 8: you were just saying, like, it makes you want to
Speaker 8: do a better job, It makes you want to be
Speaker 8: a better husband, a better father, et cetera. So I
Speaker 8: think it's cool how that giving back.
Speaker 9: Mike.
Speaker 8: I have a question for you though, because you've mentioned
Speaker 8: a couple of times, so sorry I interview you. Okay,
Speaker 8: So I'm curious because you said, and Janna you mentioned
Speaker 8: just a bit ago, the empathy piece really being the
Speaker 8: turning point for you guys in your healing process, and
Speaker 8: with the women I work with, that seems to be
Speaker 8: such the missing element and a lot of women, like
Speaker 8: the affair is actually not what's going to cause the divorce.
Speaker 8: It's the line. It's the defensiveness, like you guys were saying. So, Mike,
Speaker 8: I'm just curious what helped you go from that defensive
Speaker 8: posture to this posture of it sounds like humility and empathy?
Speaker 8: What like what made it click for you?
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, because that took a while. I mean
Speaker 1: it's still not perfect.
Speaker 4: I still have my moments because I've always been a defensive,
Speaker 4: kind of short tempered human being. So it's still active
Speaker 4: thing for me to do, and a lot of my
Speaker 4: natural reactions are maybe defensive, you know, like just this morning, Yeah,
Speaker 4: just this morning, just because I was Jana had been
Speaker 4: up and was ready to start the day. I was
Speaker 4: just waking up. We just traveled from a different country
Speaker 4: last night, and so Jana was asking me about something.
Speaker 4: I just got defensive about it and it was kind
Speaker 4: of you know. And then a few minutes later, once
Speaker 4: we were away from each other, I texted because I
Speaker 4: was just like what am I doing? Like why was
Speaker 4: I I didn't have to be that way, you know.
Speaker 4: So it's still something I struggle with, but for me,
Speaker 4: I mean, we Jana and I got to a place
Speaker 4: where she truly gave me like an ultimatum where time
Speaker 4: had passed since the actual infidelity, and so basically she
Speaker 4: confirmed the myth that this is a myth, the whole
Speaker 4: I'm not acting out, Why don't you trust me? She
Speaker 4: confirmed that. She's like, I'm gonna leave you if you
Speaker 4: do not stop being defensive, if you don't show me empathy,
Speaker 4: you know, so on and so forth. But I'll still
Speaker 4: stuck in that mindset of but I'm not acting out
Speaker 4: or I'm not you know, whatever it is. So it
Speaker 4: just she we got into a bad enough place where
Speaker 4: she told that to me, and I realized, like, this
Speaker 4: doesn't have really anything to do with me acting out.
Speaker 4: This has to do with everything else too.
Speaker 1: But why does it happen? Like I'm just trying to think,
Speaker 1: like for the guy, like how why is it so
Speaker 1: hard for the men to be because I mean, I
Speaker 1: same thing with you, Shelly, Like I get DMS all
Speaker 1: the time. Like the husband's like wants me to get
Speaker 1: over it, and you know they don't feel the pain.
Speaker 1: I don't know why you guys can't sit there with
Speaker 1: Is it because of the shame?
Speaker 4: I think yes, one hundred percent, and Jason can speak
Speaker 4: on this too. I think for me it's definitely shame
Speaker 4: and I think it's a biological thing too, where we
Speaker 4: just naturally aren't as nurturing or empathetic as women. So
Speaker 4: for us, the pride and the ego, that kind of
Speaker 4: neanderthal mindset, we just allow that to get in the
Speaker 4: way because of what society teaches us because maybe I
Speaker 4: were raised.
Speaker 1: I like the car accident one that you said, we
Speaker 1: had a therapist or our therapist here in La make
Speaker 1: you watch something, and I think that helped sometimes too
Speaker 1: for you for empathy.
Speaker 4: Yeah, what was that?
Speaker 1: It was like, basically, I got into a car accident
Speaker 1: and I need you to help me. You need to
Speaker 1: carry me basically, Yeah, because you just you just took
Speaker 1: off my two legs.
Speaker 4: Yeah exactly.
Speaker 9: I think the other aspect of it is, you know,
Speaker 9: kind of conceptually, uh, our emotional maturity as men, our
Speaker 9: emotional maturity kind of stops where our addiction starts. So
Speaker 9: for a lot of us, you know, we were eleven
Speaker 9: twelve years old whenever we were starting into this sexual stop, right,
Speaker 9: and it's at the point where that was really ramping
Speaker 9: up that our emotional maturity got stunted, so like for
Speaker 9: a lot of us guys. And this is not an excuse,
Speaker 9: it's an explanation on excuse. It's like we didn't develop,
Speaker 9: you know, mature and develop into what it means to
Speaker 9: be an emphastic, tender person because of the stuff that's
Speaker 9: been going on in our lives for usually a couple
Speaker 9: of decades.
Speaker 4: Yep.
Speaker 9: So part of our recovery is not only stop acting
Speaker 9: out and and all that stuff, but part of our
Speaker 9: recovery is that emotional maturity and development and empathy is
Speaker 9: a part of that.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's a great point. And because it just again
Speaker 4: for me personally, it's every time I had feelings or whatever,
Speaker 4: I didn't know how to handle them, so I acted
Speaker 4: out sexually, right, so instead of confronting them and dealing
Speaker 4: with that, that feeling or pain that you know, just
Speaker 4: went elsewhere, just like anyone with any kind of an addiction.
Speaker 9: Yeah. Well, I won't say one other thing about something
Speaker 9: you mentioned there, Jenna. They so much. I hear this
Speaker 9: a lot of people in the culture saying, well, this
Speaker 9: is really about a weak woman. Have you as anybody
Speaker 9: said that to you? You're a weak woman, for saying, oh, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean there's some been some mean people that have
Speaker 1: said things, but yeah, I mean I've I've definitely heard
Speaker 1: that before. But my I think I'm super strong for
Speaker 1: saying I think the easiest thing could have been to
Speaker 1: leave you.
Speaker 9: Totally agree, Yeah, totally.
Speaker 1: I think it takes a really strong woman to stay.
Speaker 9: It takes more strength and more courage to work through
Speaker 9: the pain. I mean, anytime you see a good man
Speaker 9: in this recovery process, chances of those is a really
Speaker 9: good woman next to him.
Speaker 1: Absolutely, I really want all of us to get together.
Speaker 1: So can we make this happen? Because I love you guys.
Speaker 8: Oh my gosh, you.
Speaker 1: Guys live in the Denver area.
Speaker 8: Yeah, we're in Denver, all right.
Speaker 1: Well, anytime you guys are in LA or Nashville and
Speaker 1: foreign Denver, you just let's just stay in contact. And
Speaker 1: because we think you guys are great and we just
Speaker 1: cannot thank you enough for this conversation. And I just
Speaker 1: thank you for everything.
Speaker 4: We can talk to you guys all day, so we
Speaker 4: appreciate your time. And where else can our listeners like
Speaker 4: you know, tell them real quick about Redemptive Living, nuck
Speaker 4: and so on?
Speaker 9: For Living dot Com that's our website for our minustry
Speaker 9: where we do work helping men, marriages and whys that
Speaker 9: are going through betrayal. And that's all we do, that's
Speaker 9: all we specialize in. Shelley runs groups support groups for
Speaker 9: wives going through it. You can check out her website
Speaker 9: r l forwomen dot com. Uh and we've got resources
Speaker 9: out there. There's books, video curriculum, courses as well as
Speaker 9: obviously one on one help. So if there's a way
Speaker 9: that we can we can help people through the process,
Speaker 9: that's what we're.
Speaker 4: Here to do.
Speaker 1: I love it. Jason Shelley, thank you guys so much
Speaker 1: for coming online down.
Speaker 4: Thank you guys so much.
Speaker 8: You guys, thank you, Honor, have.
Speaker 4: A great one too. Before before we go on, before
Speaker 4: we go on and take a break for a second,
Speaker 4: there's one thing I want to read to and this
Speaker 4: is this stuck with me. I remember I read it first.
Speaker 1: Are you gonna read it?
Speaker 4: No, we're gonna take a break on one second. I
Speaker 4: just want to read this for food for thought for
Speaker 4: the men or women out there that are the perpetrators,
Speaker 4: the one in my shoes. Okay, and this is the
Speaker 4: end of there forward and worthy of a trust. So
Speaker 4: it took a better part of five years to feel
Speaker 4: like we were stabilized. It took seven years for Shelley
Speaker 4: to say she actually respected me. Took eight years for
Speaker 4: her to say that if we had to go through
Speaker 4: it all over again, she would still choose me. Took
Speaker 4: nine years for her to say that my sexual addiction
Speaker 4: was one of the best things that ever happened to her.
Speaker 4: And today, as I write, this is a little over
Speaker 4: ten years since everything hit the fan, and they're in
Speaker 4: an amazing place. So that's just you know that I
Speaker 4: always would reread that, and as much as I acted
Speaker 4: against that in all of this kind of recovery process
Speaker 4: is it's a good reminder that this isn't a quick fix.
Speaker 4: It takes time, takes investment. But take a break.
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, now that I am not pregnant anymore, I
Speaker 1: have got to the dreaded period.
Speaker 7: But things are made easy with Lola.
Speaker 6: So.
Speaker 1: Lola is a female founded company offering a line of
Speaker 1: organic cotton tampon's pads, liners, and all natural hunting wives.
Speaker 1: And the great thing is that Lola products are one
Speaker 1: hundred percent natural and easy to feel good about. There's
Speaker 1: no bs mystery fibers or doubts about what's going in
Speaker 1: your body. Plus, Lola comes in a simple, okay, very simple,
Speaker 1: easy customizable subscription, so Lola will deliver exactly what you
Speaker 1: need when you need it, which is great. They'll give
Speaker 1: you four ways to tell your little subscription to perfectly
Speaker 1: fit your needs. The product type, the absorbency, the quantity
Speaker 1: and frequency, which is great for me.
Speaker 7: Because you know, sometimes I don't need.
Speaker 1: All the supers or all the regular so I can
Speaker 1: customize it to exactly what I want, how long my
Speaker 1: flow is because it's different than other people.
Speaker 7: So that's what I love about it.
Speaker 1: And for every purchase, Lola donates feminine care products to
Speaker 1: homeless shelters across the US, so they're a great company.
Speaker 1: For forty percent off all subscriptions, visit my Lola dot
Speaker 1: com and enter Janna when you subscribe. That's Mylola dot
Speaker 1: com And when you subscribe.
Speaker 7: Just enter Janna.
Speaker 4: Can you honestly say that the furniture that you own
Speaker 4: brings you any joy? Or are you missing a couch
Speaker 4: or chair that really says this is my space? Joybird
Speaker 4: empowers you to create the furniture and space that brings
Speaker 4: you joy. With Joybird, you get one of a kind
Speaker 4: furniture crafted to your unique taste. Joybird offers a range
Speaker 4: of kid in pet friendly, polsterry options so that your
Speaker 4: creations can stand the test of time. That's exactly the
Speaker 4: direction that Jana and I went for our new house
Speaker 4: in Nashville. Between two dogs and two young kids, we
Speaker 4: knew we needed something that could withstand that. There's free
Speaker 4: personal design consultants to help you nail down your perfect design.
Speaker 4: It's all quality, handcrafted furniture, and also they have a
Speaker 4: three hundred and sixty five day home trial. Skip the
Speaker 4: furniture store and bring the showroom home to you. You
Speaker 4: can sit on it, sleep on it, break it in.
Speaker 4: If you don't love your Joybird furniture, return it for
Speaker 4: a full refund. It's all hassle free and home delivery.
Speaker 4: They'll even remove all the packing materials free returns within
Speaker 4: two weeks of delivery. So see help. Joybird can help
Speaker 4: you design your dream space. Find your today at joybird
Speaker 4: dot com slash Jana. Create the furniture that brings you
Speaker 4: joy today at joybird dot com slash Janna. Go to
Speaker 4: joybird dot com slash Jana and receive an exclusive offer
Speaker 4: for twenty five percent off your first order by using
Speaker 4: the promo code Jana, How was that for you?
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's hard talking about Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: like it's tough, but they're so sweet and I just,
Speaker 1: I just I love that there's other people out there
Speaker 1: too that are showing people that there is, if there's
Speaker 1: a will, there's a way. I just I'm just the
Speaker 1: empathy piece is very interesting that she you know, because
Speaker 1: so many women, it's just there's so many times I
Speaker 1: just want to like shake you and be like just
Speaker 1: sit here with me and like cry and say you're sorry,
Speaker 1: and you know, Yeah, it's an interesting piece. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that was a They were really sweet. I'd love to
Speaker 1: I'd love to get to know them more.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that was that was really really cool, I think
Speaker 4: for both of us.
Speaker 1: And it's got to be like full circle for.
Speaker 4: You, it's super full circle and kind of surreal that
Speaker 4: I was able to talk to again. You know me,
Speaker 4: I'm not a huge reader. I'm trying to become more
Speaker 4: of a reader. Yeah, you know, and so for this
Speaker 4: to be the first book, and I again, like I
Speaker 4: said numerous times now, I don't know the last time
Speaker 4: I read a book cover to cover, and I read
Speaker 4: it twice when I was in treatment. You know, it
Speaker 4: did change my.
Speaker 1: Life's kinda feel pretty good then, just that you just
Speaker 1: talked to the author. Yeah, all rights.
Speaker 2: Mark, we got some good ones. I am in a
Speaker 2: similar situation to you and Mike. Six months before my wedding,
Speaker 2: I had discovered that by now husband has a gambling problem.
Speaker 2: He said he was just young and dumb and wasn't
Speaker 2: doing it anymore. Well, it's almost two years into our
Speaker 2: marriage and seven months pregnant. I stumbled across a credit
Speaker 2: card statement saw the amount of money he had charged
Speaker 2: to it, more than we could afford. He blamed it
Speaker 2: on gambling, but this time it felt different. The names
Speaker 2: he sent Amazon gift cards to see odd and were
Speaker 2: women's names. Over the next two months, I found about
Speaker 2: four more credit cards that were accumulating death that was
Speaker 2: beyond what we could fix. He decided to go to
Speaker 2: a few gamblers anonymous meetings and began seeing a therapist.
Speaker 2: But I knew he was hiding something, so I went
Speaker 2: into his email and discovered he was having girls send
Speaker 2: him individualized videos. He said he felt like he never
Speaker 2: got to experience that life, because we've been together since
Speaker 2: we were fifteen, and he felt that this was a
Speaker 2: better option than cheating because it wasn't physical. I can't
Speaker 2: believe he spent thousands of dollars on these women. It's
Speaker 2: been a little over a month now and we're both
Speaker 2: doing counseling. I don't know how to move forward with
Speaker 2: our relationship, Mike. I want to better understand the mind
Speaker 2: of an addict. Why did he get so invested in
Speaker 2: this lifestyle when I was here for him all along?
Speaker 4: She is anonymous, I mean addictive behavior for sure. Is
Speaker 4: his excuses are just rationalization, justification that they are excuses
Speaker 4: the whole I didn't ex experience this or that. I mean,
Speaker 4: you guys been get it that long. He made a choice,
Speaker 4: so there's nothing to blame. You're not to blame for this.
Speaker 4: It was him just choosing. He made the choices, and
Speaker 4: you know, whatever is going on with him. I mean
Speaker 4: again kind of Jane and I've been talking about, like
Speaker 4: for men or for myself or whoever, to be able
Speaker 4: to tap into empathy or to be able to go
Speaker 4: and talk to somebody about internal feelings easier said than
Speaker 4: done for for a male. I mean, I'm sure there's
Speaker 4: females that have that problem too, but he just found
Speaker 4: an outlet for whatever he's dealing with. It's not healthy.
Speaker 1: No, and you didn't do anything wrong, like Mike said,
Speaker 1: nothing wrong. Yeah, don't be like don't and don't put
Speaker 1: blame on what he said, Well, we been together since
Speaker 1: we're fifteen like that, don't put blame. Don't blame yourself
Speaker 1: for that. That's not nothing wrong.
Speaker 2: Right in the line, why did he do this when
Speaker 2: I was here for him all along? I feel like
Speaker 2: she is starting to put some on herself.
Speaker 4: There, right or do that right? And I'm not even
Speaker 4: going to sit here and say, well, how did he
Speaker 4: know that you were there for him like you should?
Speaker 4: Did you tell him? I'm not even gonna say that,
Speaker 4: because that's not it. If you've been together for fifteen years,
Speaker 4: like I don't know how long they've been together. I mean,
Speaker 4: I mean since they're fifteen. I'm sorry, you've been together
Speaker 4: since they're fifteen. I mean, they know they're there for
Speaker 4: each other.
Speaker 1: So I love that you guys are in counseling. And
Speaker 1: I don't like the fact that I will say I
Speaker 1: don't like the fact that he says it's not cheating
Speaker 1: because that is still cheating. Oh yeah, even though you
Speaker 1: didn't physically he wasn't physical with those women, that's still.
Speaker 4: Outside, that's stepping out inside the marriage.
Speaker 1: So I don't let him manipulate that, yeah, because that's
Speaker 1: not go to counseling. Well, yeah, they're in.
Speaker 4: Yeah, right, he should see a c SET certified sex
Speaker 4: addiction therapists. Yeah, and he needs to not only a
Speaker 4: couples counseling like you guys are doing, but he needs
Speaker 4: to go to visual counseling and figure out and dig
Speaker 4: to see where these feelings are coming from.
Speaker 2: It's great that he's going to Gambles Anonymous, but I
Speaker 2: feel like there's more.
Speaker 1: Yeah here, Yeah, there's a personal You know.
Speaker 4: It's interesting because I've known plenty of guys that are
Speaker 4: in the twelve set program I'm in that come from
Speaker 4: AA or NA or whatever, and they realize, come to
Speaker 4: realize that the sex aspect is the root of maybe
Speaker 4: what drove.
Speaker 1: Them to something love to For slaw, the root is
Speaker 1: always love, you know, the most most roots are always
Speaker 1: about love and the lack thereof and your family of origin.
Speaker 4: So so yeah, so it's you know, great, they went
Speaker 4: to gamblers anonymous, But that's just him believing his own
Speaker 4: lies that it was gambling.
Speaker 2: Yeah, he needs it's deeper than that, needs to admit
Speaker 2: that he has a real problem here. There's it's deeper
Speaker 2: than that until he admits that. I think we got
Speaker 2: a rough road right head.
Speaker 4: Which he needs. That's why he needs to go to
Speaker 4: a se set.
Speaker 2: And that's by the way, I feel like that sayings
Speaker 2: use a lot of cheaters use we've been together a
Speaker 2: whole live and never got to experience other women that
Speaker 2: sort of thing. Yeah, yeah, but it's no different than
Speaker 2: any other in fidelity.
Speaker 4: I'll say this, and I remember now you rereading that
Speaker 4: part what I want to say when we got this
Speaker 4: email last week. You didn't have time that whole I
Speaker 4: didn't get to experience. Tell you relay this message your husband.
Speaker 4: That experience is not worth any of it. That experience sucks.
Speaker 4: It's empty, it's miserable, it's lonely, and it's depressing. Now
Speaker 4: it's hard for people to hear that from somebody else,
Speaker 4: be like, yeah, well, because you experience you say that nice,
Speaker 4: so they think they want to experience it. Effing it sucks.
Speaker 2: Well, it's not worth it. You've got a baby on
Speaker 2: the way here. There's not a family here that you're
Speaker 2: going to destroy.
Speaker 4: And it's not worth that that life isn't going to
Speaker 4: make you happier than your wife, than your kids, or
Speaker 4: anything like that.
Speaker 1: Again, that's where it's there's something so much deeper than
Speaker 1: just going to a gamble, right, It falls deeper than that.
Speaker 5: All right, This is from Brittany.
Speaker 2: My fiance and I were actually at your live podcast
Speaker 2: here in LA. I wanted to ask a question during
Speaker 2: the show, but my fiance gets embarrassed, so I refrained.
Speaker 2: After we left, he opened up and said, we have
Speaker 2: a lot of issues. We just got engaged and have
Speaker 2: started to plan the wedding. We are stuck in a
Speaker 2: very difficult spot. My fiance is religious and I am not.
Speaker 2: I want to get married outdoors, but it's important to
Speaker 2: him and his family to get married in the Catholic Church.
Speaker 5: Neither one of us is budgeting.
Speaker 2: I've suggested we go see a therapist, not only for
Speaker 2: our other issues, but for this particular subject.
Speaker 5: He says, we can't afford to see a therapist. What
Speaker 5: do we do?
Speaker 1: Well? First of all, thanks for coming to our live podcast.
Speaker 1: Brett Brett not affording to be able to go to
Speaker 1: a therapist, I think is something where you need to
Speaker 1: budget because there are therapists that do take insurance, so
Speaker 1: I think, and also, okay, maybe we just budget out
Speaker 1: the month where you kind of it because it's important
Speaker 1: and being saying that, I understand it can be expensive.
Speaker 4: I do.
Speaker 1: I do have empathy for that. But at the same time,
Speaker 1: it's your marriage, and you need to talk to somebody
Speaker 1: and sit down because it's you know, it's important, it's
Speaker 1: your marriage. Just because you know, saying that we candn't
Speaker 1: afford it, your wedding's going to be expensive. So maybe
Speaker 1: cut down on one thing so you can go see
Speaker 1: a therapist, right instead of having a cake do cupcakes?
Speaker 1: I don't know, and then to cut down on costs
Speaker 1: so that way you can see a therapist, because you
Speaker 1: won't have the successful marriage if you don't. If you
Speaker 1: have if you have all these issues and the only
Speaker 1: reason you're not going is because you don't have the money,
Speaker 1: that's that's not a reason in my personal opinion.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, again, we're empathetic to the fact that
Speaker 4: it is expensive. We totally understand that. And but again,
Speaker 4: like Janna said, break down your expenses for that, for
Speaker 4: how they are monthly, be like, all right, we can
Speaker 4: not eat out this many times because we want to
Speaker 4: use that money too, see a therapist. Whatever it is.
Speaker 4: It's tough that issue.
Speaker 1: I feel like we kind of ran into this a
Speaker 1: little bit because your your family's more religious, right.
Speaker 4: But I didn't care about getting married in.
Speaker 1: Church, right, but I know your family cared about it.
Speaker 1: Maybe do an outdoor reception, Yeah, like an outdoor reception
Speaker 1: and just kind of meet in the middle.
Speaker 4: That's interesting, you know, because that is Unfortunately, it is
Speaker 4: tough because and just look at it this way. A church,
Speaker 4: depending on the venue, can still be very beautiful, gorgeous, gorgeous.
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe maybe it would rain the day that you
Speaker 1: were going to be outside.
Speaker 4: Right, you know, maybe so maybe because it just says
Speaker 4: get married in the Catholic Church, not necessarily their church.
Speaker 4: So find a beautiful Catholic cathedral near you or with
Speaker 4: something like that. Find something that's gorgeous that will do weddings,
Speaker 4: and do it there.
Speaker 2: But this is gonna have to be compromising. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 2: moving forward in all things.
Speaker 1: Well, that's the thing. I'm like, there, maybe this is
Speaker 1: something a little bit bigger than inside outside. Yes, it
Speaker 1: seems like when you say other issues with issues and
Speaker 1: quotations that seems to not be about the church. Let's
Speaker 1: just say that.
Speaker 2: You're gonna be raising kids. You don't want to be
Speaker 2: fighting about that every Sunday morning. You don't want to battle.
Speaker 1: Let me tell you save up the money for therapy,
Speaker 1: because when you do get married, got to go to therapy, all.
Speaker 2: Right, Taylor, And this one's last one. My boyfriend and
Speaker 2: I have been together for two and a half years.
Speaker 2: We lived together, and he bought a car six months
Speaker 2: ago that we share. Last week, I got rear ended.
Speaker 2: It was not my fault. The other person had insurance. However,
Speaker 2: when I told my boyfriend, his first question was were
Speaker 2: you on the phone? And his second question was is
Speaker 2: the car okay? He didn't even ask me if I
Speaker 2: was okay. He was extremely mad at me and hung
Speaker 2: up on me. Oh, it was a pretty dramatic experience
Speaker 2: that shook me up. And it's just a car. It's
Speaker 2: a generic sedan, it's nothing fancy. When I told my
Speaker 2: boyfriend how mad I was, his response was I've worked
Speaker 2: my ass off for that car. My blood, sweat and
Speaker 2: tears to earn that car. I feel like we're not
Speaker 2: going to see eyed eye on this. Am I in
Speaker 2: the wrong?
Speaker 1: I mean, you're not in the wrong for asking that.
Speaker 1: He should have asked if you were okay? I mean
Speaker 1: you got to a car accident. I can understand a
Speaker 1: man's passion for his car. I mean, like if I
Speaker 1: leave a gum wrapper in Mike's car, like he loses
Speaker 1: his mind. If I leave water bottles. I mean like
Speaker 1: he's men men in their cars. It's like their prize possession.
Speaker 1: But and we should be their prize possessions. But you know,
Speaker 1: do you just that's a tough one because again, I
Speaker 1: know how much you love your car. But at the
Speaker 1: same time, I feel like you would still ask if
Speaker 1: I was okay, if I if I hurt your truck. Yeah, oh,
Speaker 1: clearly Mike doesn't believe this, Taylor.
Speaker 4: No, I know I would. The first thing I'd ask
Speaker 4: is are you okay?
Speaker 1: And then also how bad's my car?
Speaker 4: Yes, it would be it would be difficult to have
Speaker 4: an appropriate length pause in between these two questions.
Speaker 9: Jesus.
Speaker 4: But I'm just I'm just being honest. I'm just you know,
Speaker 4: I would, I would genuinely care because and that's the
Speaker 4: thing he should realize. A car is just a car.
Speaker 4: You can replace that. I understand, work hard for it,
Speaker 4: worked your ass off to pay for it, get that,
Speaker 4: but it's replaceable. Your girlfriend is.
Speaker 1: Not, or well maybe in his mind it is you
Speaker 1: are dealer.
Speaker 4: No, that's he should have I mean.
Speaker 1: You should have said if you're okay. That's not very nice,
Speaker 1: and you know what, you should go to him and
Speaker 1: from a very empathetic place and be like, hey, I
Speaker 1: am really sorry about your car, but I want you
Speaker 1: to hurt my feelings that you didn't even ask if
Speaker 1: I was okay, So just come to him and talk
Speaker 1: to him from a good place.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and validate. I understand that you work really.
Speaker 1: Hard for his car, and I'm so sorry. I honestly,
Speaker 1: it's not like she meant to freaking nothing wrong. It's
Speaker 1: not like she meant to freaking do it.
Speaker 4: And I will say she said she was rear ended. Yeah,
Speaker 4: so that's her fault, right, so that I can understand
Speaker 4: if she ran it in the back of somebody, Yeah,
Speaker 4: I would. That's when I'll definitely be like, are you okay, okay,
Speaker 4: you're fine? Were you on your phone? Like, what were
Speaker 4: you doing right, because that pissed me off.
Speaker 8: Right.
Speaker 4: She's rerounded, right, So yeah, Taylor, you have every right
Speaker 4: to be pissed off at him for being pissed off
Speaker 4: of you. In case you guys didn't know, Dunkin Donuts
Speaker 4: now has breakfast sandwiches. They're freshly made with delicious ingredients.
Speaker 4: You had choices like sausage, egg and cheese, bacon, egg
Speaker 4: and cheese, turkey, sausage, ham, egg and cheese, veggie, egg white,
Speaker 4: or the egg and cheese breakfast sandwich. Duncan just launched
Speaker 4: its nude Dunkin bowls as well. At participating restaurants nationwide.
Speaker 4: Guests can choose from the egg white bowl made with
Speaker 4: egg white, spinach, roasted potatoes, cheddar, cheese, and caramelized onions,
Speaker 4: or the Sausage Scramble Bowl made with scrambled eggs, sausage,
Speaker 4: melted cheddar, jack, cheese, peppers, and onions. Duncan also recently
Speaker 4: introduced three new signature lattes, Blueberry Chris, Caramel Craze, and Cocamoca.
Speaker 4: Stop by your Niars Duncan to try one today. Duncan
Speaker 4: has over fifty locations in the Greater LA Area. Odds
Speaker 4: are there's a great one near you.
Speaker 1: That was a good show.
Speaker 4: How are you feeling?
Speaker 1: I'm so tired?
Speaker 4: Is that what it is?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm pretty tired.
Speaker 4: Okay, yeah, because I know, like you know, some of
Speaker 4: the stuff talking to Jason and Shelley, you know, brings
Speaker 4: up stuff. Yeah, but I felt some Well.
Speaker 1: No, it's hard. I don't. Honestly, I think I'm I'm
Speaker 1: so tired. I could like ball my eyes out right
Speaker 1: now because I think there's a lot of emotions, but
Speaker 1: I think the majority that is I'm just tired. So
Speaker 1: when I'm tired, maybe I could eat more triggered easily,
Speaker 1: because I can.
Speaker 4: Tell you've held back some emotion.
Speaker 1: It's because I yeah, it's because I think I'm just
Speaker 1: like overtired, and I don't want to like cry fast
Speaker 1: right now on wine down. So I'm good, overwhelmed because
Speaker 1: everything's good. We're good. It's just you know, I think
Speaker 1: when I'm tired, maybe more things come up for me.
Speaker 1: But I am thanks.
Speaker 4: Man, more things come up for you, And I'm here
Speaker 4: for you. If you want to talk.
Speaker 1: Later, yeah, I'll probably cry later.
Speaker 4: Okay, We're gonna have a right later wind out. You
Speaker 4: guys want to join us
Speaker 6: M HMM,