1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:13,280 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. You're listening to the 2 00:00:13,320 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch us live weekdays at 3 00:00:17,079 --> 00:00:20,280 Speaker 1: noon and five pm Eastern on Apple Coarclay and Android 4 00:00:20,320 --> 00:00:23,720 Speaker 1: Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. Listen on demand wherever 5 00:00:23,760 --> 00:00:25,439 Speaker 1: you get your podcasts. 6 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,160 Speaker 2: Or you made us to Friday. Welcome to the Friday 7 00:00:27,280 --> 00:00:30,800 Speaker 2: edition of Balance of Power with the AI Hangover on 8 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,840 Speaker 2: Wall Street and a holiday party hangover here in Washington. 9 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 2: It better be Friday on Bloomberg Radio Satellite radio Channel 10 00:00:39,159 --> 00:00:41,440 Speaker 2: one twenty one and streaming live on YouTube. Check it 11 00:00:41,440 --> 00:00:44,559 Speaker 2: out right now search Bloomberg Business News Live. Unless you're 12 00:00:44,560 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 2: ahead of the game, you might have YouTube TV flip 13 00:00:48,040 --> 00:00:51,919 Speaker 2: over Bloomberg Originals. We'll meet you in the studio as 14 00:00:51,920 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 2: we try to get our heads around what in the 15 00:00:53,320 --> 00:00:55,960 Speaker 2: world is happening with this tanker that was seized in 16 00:00:55,960 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 2: the Caribbean, and we're learning new information about it right now. 17 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 2: By the way, one of the coolest things we're going 18 00:01:00,960 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 2: to do this in a minute, the map go function 19 00:01:03,520 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 2: on the terminal. You can actually track that tanker, just 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 2: like you can't any ship that's sailing its way around 21 00:01:09,600 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 2: the world. President was asked about this a couple of 22 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 2: days ago. Now, remember we seize the ship. What happens 23 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:16,920 Speaker 2: to the oil on board? He said, well, I guess 24 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:20,520 Speaker 2: we're going to keep it. Here's what he said, the. 25 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:24,120 Speaker 3: World on ship. 26 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 2: Well we keep it. 27 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:25,720 Speaker 4: I guess. 28 00:01:28,240 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 5: When you have to follow the tanker, you know, here 29 00:01:30,480 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 5: a good needs but just follow the tanker. 30 00:01:32,920 --> 00:01:36,080 Speaker 3: Follow follow it, get a helicopter, follow the tanker. 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:39,280 Speaker 4: But we're going to I assume we're going to keep the. 32 00:01:41,120 --> 00:01:45,080 Speaker 2: It's the best. I assume. It looks like we are 33 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:46,720 Speaker 2: by the way, and I don't know that we're going 34 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:48,600 Speaker 2: to be able to burn that oil anytime soon. It 35 00:01:48,640 --> 00:01:50,440 Speaker 2: looks like it's going to have to be held in escrow. 36 00:01:50,560 --> 00:01:52,680 Speaker 2: We'll have more on that as we learn more. But 37 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: Tyler Kendall is with us right now. We rescued her 38 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 2: from the White House and pulled her into the Washington 39 00:01:56,840 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 2: d C Bureau with the latest on this. Tyler. The 40 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:03,160 Speaker 2: story that Eric Martin broke has evolved quite a bit, 41 00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:05,040 Speaker 2: and he's saying, now it's just the beginning. So this 42 00:02:05,080 --> 00:02:07,960 Speaker 2: is going to be a new reality. I guess for us, right. 43 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 6: Exactly, some incredible reporting from our colleague people familiar telling 44 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 6: Bloomberg News that this really marks the first step in 45 00:02:14,720 --> 00:02:17,240 Speaker 6: a new phase for the US as it puts pressure 46 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,720 Speaker 6: on Venezuela but also Maduro. And this phase has to 47 00:02:20,800 --> 00:02:24,399 Speaker 6: do with trying to essentially cut off the oil revenues 48 00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 6: for Maduro in a bid to get him to relinquish control. 49 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:30,720 Speaker 6: And that's really why we're going to be watching this 50 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,680 Speaker 6: closely how it could evolve, because the Treasury Department earlier 51 00:02:33,720 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 6: this week moved to sanction additional oil companies, additional tinkers, 52 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 6: and also some close associates of Maduro. So our understanding 53 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 6: is Venezuela is actually preparing for there to be additional 54 00:02:47,440 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 6: seizures of ships, and that's going to be really important 55 00:02:50,880 --> 00:02:53,120 Speaker 6: to watch here. In fact, our reporting goes further than 56 00:02:53,200 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 6: that's saying that the state oil company is trying to 57 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 6: figure out alternate roots to make sure that they can 58 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:00,679 Speaker 6: get the crude to China, which is going to be 59 00:03:00,720 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 6: a big factor in this since China is such a 60 00:03:03,120 --> 00:03:06,880 Speaker 6: huge buyer of this Venezuelan oil. In fact, I pulled 61 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:10,600 Speaker 6: some of the data about eighty percent of Venezuela's export 62 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 6: revenue comes from oil, and on average they're exporting about 63 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 6: seven hundred and fifty thousand barrels per day this year, 64 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:20,280 Speaker 6: with nearly half of that going to Beijing. 65 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 2: Incredible, So you know, there could be five or six 66 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:25,520 Speaker 2: more based on what we're hearing. We sanctioned six more ships. 67 00:03:26,000 --> 00:03:28,920 Speaker 2: Reuter's is reporting a little more here. This tanker is 68 00:03:28,960 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 2: too large to enter Houston's port. They're going to have 69 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 2: to anchor this thing way off the coast and offload 70 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 2: the oil. This is potentially a little more complicated than 71 00:03:38,640 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 2: we were bargaining for here, right. 72 00:03:39,920 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 6: And it's a lot of oil. So this particular tanker, 73 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 6: we've been discussing this on the program. It's part of 74 00:03:45,600 --> 00:03:48,320 Speaker 6: what's known as the Dark Fleet that helps to support 75 00:03:48,520 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 6: Venezuelan oil exports. This particular tanker, also Iranian oil exports, 76 00:03:52,600 --> 00:03:56,760 Speaker 6: has the capacity for two million barrels. Routers reporting apparently 77 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 6: according to the data and the satellite imagery, there's one 78 00:03:59,200 --> 00:04:03,360 Speaker 6: point eighty five mins barrels on this particular ship. And again, 79 00:04:03,560 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 6: the type of crude that is on it is typically 80 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 6: does go to China. So just another wrinkle to follow here. Now, 81 00:04:09,760 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 6: you heard President Trump saying that he thinks that we 82 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 6: will keep it. We should know yesterday at the White 83 00:04:14,200 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 6: House Press briefing. The White House Press Secretary Caroline Lovett 84 00:04:17,400 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 6: did say that the US does intend to seize the oil. 85 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,360 Speaker 2: Fascinating stuff. Have you done, mapgo? 86 00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:22,000 Speaker 4: Have you seen he? 87 00:04:22,200 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 2: It's awesome. We were looking at the ships lined up 88 00:04:24,440 --> 00:04:27,359 Speaker 2: at the ports coming out of COVID. Now we're following 89 00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 2: tankers that we've seized. It's all right there on the terminal, Tyler, 90 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,440 Speaker 2: thank you so much. We'll have more from Tyler Kendall 91 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:34,599 Speaker 2: coming up a little bit later in our second hour 92 00:04:34,640 --> 00:04:37,640 Speaker 2: here on balance of power. Keep that in mind. If 93 00:04:37,680 --> 00:04:40,600 Speaker 2: you're a terminal user, go there now, because we're going 94 00:04:40,640 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: to talk this through with Adam Ferrer, who pointed me 95 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:48,080 Speaker 2: to this yesterday, our friend from Bloomberg Economics, senior geoeconomics 96 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 2: analyst who worked in a prior White House spending some 97 00:04:53,520 --> 00:04:56,440 Speaker 2: time on this very issue. There's been a lot of 98 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:59,320 Speaker 2: questions about the legality and so forth, but also the logistics, 99 00:04:59,360 --> 00:05:00,880 Speaker 2: and that's what we want to to talk about with Adam, 100 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 2: who joins us here in studio. Mister Farrer, it's great 101 00:05:03,640 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 2: to have you with us as always on the Friday 102 00:05:05,640 --> 00:05:09,560 Speaker 2: edition Reuter's updates the news you had suggested maybe Galveston 103 00:05:09,640 --> 00:05:12,480 Speaker 2: somewhere this ship is going. Apparently Houston is the answer, 104 00:05:13,320 --> 00:05:15,080 Speaker 2: but it's too big to get it in the port. 105 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:17,720 Speaker 2: What are they going to do? So that's not unusual. 106 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:20,560 Speaker 7: I mean, this is a VLCC vessel as Tyler just 107 00:05:20,600 --> 00:05:24,599 Speaker 7: went through one point eight million barrels of oil on board. 108 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 7: I think the reality is those ships ports aren't built 109 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 7: for those ships to come in on. Those ships stay 110 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:33,760 Speaker 7: at offshore piers. Usually that'll load and in this case 111 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 7: it will anchor off at a normal anchorage facilit position 112 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,560 Speaker 7: and that's where it will sit while a very complicated 113 00:05:40,560 --> 00:05:45,400 Speaker 7: and messy legal process on furls to determine the long 114 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,039 Speaker 7: term position for the ship itself and the oil. 115 00:05:48,080 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: Wow, when do we have to hang on at the 116 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: oil while this goes through the courts. The President seem 117 00:05:53,400 --> 00:05:56,240 Speaker 2: pretty nonchalant about this. Z Yeah, assume we're gonna take 118 00:05:56,279 --> 00:05:57,680 Speaker 2: it and we'll burn it. 119 00:05:58,040 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 7: So we're missing a lot of details right now about 120 00:06:00,160 --> 00:06:03,280 Speaker 7: how the Department of Justice plans to put forward their 121 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,520 Speaker 7: case on the seizure of the oil itself. It's interesting 122 00:06:06,560 --> 00:06:10,080 Speaker 7: reporting now points to the closed warrant, the seizure warrant 123 00:06:10,120 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 7: for this ship actually being based on the vessel's association 124 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 7: with Iran, not Venezuela, and so as a result, there 125 00:06:16,680 --> 00:06:18,800 Speaker 7: are just open questions as to what case they're going 126 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:21,960 Speaker 7: to put forward on the status of that Venezuelan oil, 127 00:06:22,360 --> 00:06:24,640 Speaker 7: and therefore questions as to whether the US really can 128 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 7: seize it. But it will be likely held on the 129 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 7: vessel and then pumped off and held in storage tanks 130 00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 7: until a court determines what to do with it. But 131 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 7: what's also interesting is that the vessel itself depending on 132 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:39,560 Speaker 7: legal wrangling and lots of questions about who's its actual owner, 133 00:06:39,880 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 7: who chartered the vessel, whether the flag state was real, 134 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 7: you know, the flag of the vessel, who was registered 135 00:06:46,760 --> 00:06:50,279 Speaker 7: to the vessel, could return to service relatively quickly, or 136 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 7: could just sit for days, weeks, months, or years. 137 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 2: Well, so you just brought up a lot of questions. 138 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 2: And if you're with us on YouTube, you can see 139 00:06:56,600 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 2: US Special Forces seizing that vessel a couple of days ago. 140 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:01,479 Speaker 2: It was pretty remarkable to see them repelling out of 141 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:03,760 Speaker 2: this Blackhawk helicopter. And now, of course the question is 142 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 2: what the heck do we do with it? In the 143 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 2: White House is pointing us to the idea that there 144 00:07:09,000 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 2: will be more, is it possible in a scenario like 145 00:07:13,520 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 2: this to confirm ownership or in fact where the boat 146 00:07:17,880 --> 00:07:18,239 Speaker 2: was heading. 147 00:07:18,880 --> 00:07:22,480 Speaker 7: Well, so that you're hitting in on the exact problem 148 00:07:22,520 --> 00:07:24,600 Speaker 7: in the maritime industry and why we talk about these 149 00:07:24,600 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 7: shadow fleets. It feels like in the twenty first century, 150 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:29,800 Speaker 7: twenty twenty five, we could just know these things. Right, 151 00:07:29,800 --> 00:07:33,360 Speaker 7: We've got satellites, we're monitoring, we're tracking, but even things 152 00:07:33,400 --> 00:07:37,960 Speaker 7: like the ship's AIS or automatic information system, which is 153 00:07:38,080 --> 00:07:41,880 Speaker 7: intended to track the vessel provide safety of navigations and 154 00:07:41,960 --> 00:07:43,480 Speaker 7: sure ships don't hate each other. 155 00:07:43,360 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 4: But also allows us to know where ships. 156 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 2: Are headed, can be spoofed. 157 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 7: It can be turned off, and that's how we see 158 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:52,000 Speaker 7: these ships playing games as to their ultimate destiny. 159 00:07:52,080 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 2: This one had its transponder off for some time, right. 160 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 7: That's right, And as we saw and for those who 161 00:07:56,400 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 7: get on the terminal to look at map, go see 162 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:02,680 Speaker 7: that the ship all of a sudden turned it's AIS 163 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,320 Speaker 7: on right after it was boarded by this US team, 164 00:08:05,880 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 7: and now we can track it very easy. 165 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:08,560 Speaker 2: Is this going to Cuba? Do we know? 166 00:08:08,880 --> 00:08:09,040 Speaker 4: Well? 167 00:08:09,080 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 7: So that's what people are saying, But I think the 168 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:12,280 Speaker 7: ultimate destination may have been much. 169 00:08:12,120 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: Further a field. 170 00:08:13,120 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 7: I think China, as as Tyler had mentioned, is certainly 171 00:08:15,920 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 7: on the table. 172 00:08:16,520 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 2: So we just don't know. 173 00:08:17,720 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 7: And certainly, I promise you that Coastguard team that led 174 00:08:21,520 --> 00:08:25,960 Speaker 7: this boarding is asking and interviewing every member of the crew, 175 00:08:26,080 --> 00:08:28,440 Speaker 7: going through their logs and working out all those questions. 176 00:08:28,480 --> 00:08:30,560 Speaker 2: Well, if they and you know, when they storm the bridge, 177 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,040 Speaker 2: they couldn't they tell based on the instruments on the 178 00:08:33,040 --> 00:08:33,840 Speaker 2: ship where it was going. 179 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 7: Yeah, certainly I think they'd find they'd find some correspondence 180 00:08:38,040 --> 00:08:40,960 Speaker 7: with the charter, the person who hired the vessel to 181 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:45,040 Speaker 7: do this trip. But also, you know, these are sailors 182 00:08:45,080 --> 00:08:48,319 Speaker 7: on board and professional captain. They're not going to sit there, 183 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:50,679 Speaker 7: and you know they may obfuscate a little bit to 184 00:08:51,080 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 7: hide certain elements if they're doing something particularly illegal, but 185 00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 7: the truth on that end will likely come out the 186 00:08:56,160 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 7: questions just when well we know about that. 187 00:08:57,920 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 2: This is wild stuff. I hope when they make the 188 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 2: net Flix movie Adam Ferrer's featured. This is our great 189 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,520 Speaker 2: source of information here from Bloomberg Economics. I really appreciate it. 190 00:09:06,559 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 2: Fascinating how much do we learn from Adam Ferrer, who 191 00:09:09,200 --> 00:09:11,800 Speaker 2: knew when it came to shipping stay with us on 192 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 2: Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up after this. 193 00:09:21,920 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcasts. Catch 194 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 195 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. 196 00:09:31,920 --> 00:09:34,959 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 197 00:09:34,960 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa. 198 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,920 Speaker 2: This headline just went. Brand States to suit Trump over 199 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars h one B visa application fee. 200 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 2: This has been a pretty controversial idea and it looks 201 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,160 Speaker 2: like it's going to court. Let's stick with Venezuela for 202 00:09:50,200 --> 00:09:52,320 Speaker 2: a moment, though, knowing that this boat has been seized, 203 00:09:52,320 --> 00:09:55,160 Speaker 2: and the look, we've got another six tankers that have 204 00:09:55,240 --> 00:09:58,280 Speaker 2: been sanctioned, so we could soon have our own shadow fleet. 205 00:09:58,360 --> 00:10:00,600 Speaker 2: It sounds like the President talked about this yesterday at 206 00:10:00,640 --> 00:10:01,080 Speaker 2: the White House. 207 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:01,360 Speaker 6: Listen. 208 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 5: It's about a lot of things, but one of the 209 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,440 Speaker 5: things it's about is the fact that they've allowed millions 210 00:10:06,480 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 5: of people to come into our country from their prisons, 211 00:10:08,760 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 5: from gangs, from drug dealers, and from mental institutions, probably 212 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 5: proportionately more. 213 00:10:14,640 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 4: Than anybody else. 214 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:16,880 Speaker 5: So it has to do with a lot of things 215 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:18,880 Speaker 5: they've treated us badly, and I guess now we're not 216 00:10:18,920 --> 00:10:19,880 Speaker 5: treating them so good. 217 00:10:21,920 --> 00:10:24,760 Speaker 2: That's where we start our conversation with the gentleman from 218 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 2: Massachusetts who has authored a war Powers Act that could 219 00:10:29,600 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 2: soon hit the floor. Less of course, the Speaker doesn't 220 00:10:33,240 --> 00:10:35,040 Speaker 2: want to see that happen. This is a conversation that 221 00:10:35,120 --> 00:10:39,559 Speaker 2: Democrats and Republicans are having here in Washington. Jim McGovern, 222 00:10:39,880 --> 00:10:44,120 Speaker 2: Democrat from Massachusetts, ranking member on the House Rules Committee, 223 00:10:44,120 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 2: with us in studio right now. It's really great to see. 224 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:48,360 Speaker 4: You, happy to be with Thanks for coming in combine pleasure. 225 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:53,080 Speaker 2: You've introduced this war Powers resolution some time ago. Will 226 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:53,960 Speaker 2: it hit the floor soon? 227 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 4: Yeah. 228 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:57,320 Speaker 8: I expect to force a vote on it next week. 229 00:10:57,679 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 8: It'll be ripe to be considered on Wednesday, Thursday of 230 00:11:01,160 --> 00:11:04,839 Speaker 8: next week. We have Republican co sponsors Representative Massy and 231 00:11:05,320 --> 00:11:09,480 Speaker 8: Representative Bacon and Marjorie Taylor Green or on our on 232 00:11:09,600 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 8: boards on this resolution as well. 233 00:11:11,840 --> 00:11:12,040 Speaker 9: Uh. 234 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,160 Speaker 4: You know again, this is not a democratic initiative. 235 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:18,719 Speaker 8: I mean these are This is a bipartisan effort by 236 00:11:18,720 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 8: those of us who actually believe the Constitution means something 237 00:11:21,440 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 8: and Congress has a role to play. 238 00:11:23,360 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 5: Uh. 239 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:25,800 Speaker 8: And we don't want this president going into a war 240 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:29,840 Speaker 8: without a debate and without a vote and authorization by Congress. 241 00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:32,960 Speaker 2: Would this be specific to Venezuela or more broad. 242 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 8: It would be specific to Venezuela because that's uh, you know, 243 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:38,199 Speaker 8: that's that's the conflict we seed to be getting sucked into. 244 00:11:38,520 --> 00:11:41,439 Speaker 8: Although you know the Clippy just showed of the president, 245 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 8: he went on to further threat in Columbia. 246 00:11:43,720 --> 00:11:46,480 Speaker 4: Uh, you know where he might do further action. 247 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:49,960 Speaker 8: But look at wars are easy to get into, their 248 00:11:49,960 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 8: heart is held to get out of. And we have 249 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,160 Speaker 8: a history, you know, of talking tough, of getting sucked 250 00:11:55,200 --> 00:11:57,920 Speaker 8: into these wars that cost you know, billions of billions 251 00:11:58,000 --> 00:12:00,600 Speaker 8: of dollars, and then we find ourselves in a quagmire 252 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 8: that we can't get out of. 253 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:03,600 Speaker 2: Now, I know for a fact that you understand the 254 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: politics of the Caribbean better than most on Capitol Hill. 255 00:12:07,520 --> 00:12:10,920 Speaker 2: You helped to begin normalizing relations with Cuba in the 256 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: Obama administration. You've spent a lot of time in the region. 257 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:16,480 Speaker 2: So what do you think the president's aim is here? 258 00:12:16,520 --> 00:12:18,600 Speaker 2: Is it regime change or something else? 259 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 4: Yeah? I think it's oil. 260 00:12:19,679 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 8: Quite frankly, Yeah, I think this president is not about 261 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:24,479 Speaker 8: promoting human rights. He doesn't give a damn about democracy. 262 00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:27,679 Speaker 8: And this is not about drugs. I mean, he pardoned 263 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:30,599 Speaker 8: the former president of Honduras who was one of the 264 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 8: biggest narco traffickers in the. 265 00:12:32,640 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 2: World, hundreds of tons of coaches. 266 00:12:34,160 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 8: Yeah, so I think, I mean, there must be some 267 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,040 Speaker 8: financial interest in pursuing this policy for the president, because 268 00:12:40,040 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 8: that's all he really cares about, making money for his 269 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:45,040 Speaker 8: family and money for those who are close to him. 270 00:12:45,520 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 4: Look, our history. 271 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,440 Speaker 8: In Latin America has been one of arrogance, has been 272 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:54,240 Speaker 8: one of putting profits ahead of human rights. And by 273 00:12:54,240 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 8: the way, this administration doesn't give a damn about human rights. 274 00:12:57,040 --> 00:13:01,319 Speaker 8: They just issued their National Security strategy and this is 275 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,120 Speaker 8: the first administration that has removed the word human rights 276 00:13:05,520 --> 00:13:08,920 Speaker 8: from the from the strategy. So this is about Donald 277 00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 8: Trump's ego and it's about I think oil. 278 00:13:12,280 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 4: I think that's at the end of the day. 279 00:13:13,679 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 2: I think that's that's why we're seasoned tankers. 280 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:15,920 Speaker 4: You know. 281 00:13:16,720 --> 00:13:18,920 Speaker 8: Again, it would be nice if we had a function 282 00:13:18,960 --> 00:13:22,360 Speaker 8: in Congress that would call his administration up and ask 283 00:13:22,440 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 8: these questions like why are we doing this? 284 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 4: Why? 285 00:13:24,760 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 9: Now? 286 00:13:25,840 --> 00:13:28,040 Speaker 8: Again, this is not about drugs, more drugs are coming 287 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 8: from Mexico and China, right than from Venezuela. 288 00:13:31,280 --> 00:13:33,079 Speaker 4: So what is the strategy here? 289 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:35,240 Speaker 8: And the President is threatening you know, action on the 290 00:13:35,240 --> 00:13:38,680 Speaker 8: ground in Venezuela. Now that's that's war. He's threatening to 291 00:13:39,160 --> 00:13:41,200 Speaker 8: cut off you know, air traffics as. 292 00:13:41,120 --> 00:13:43,400 Speaker 2: We're going to do the land. So you think that 293 00:13:43,440 --> 00:13:47,160 Speaker 2: he would actually strike with him around targets in Venezuela. 294 00:13:47,200 --> 00:13:49,720 Speaker 8: Well, if he does, that's an active war. That's an 295 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 8: active war. 296 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:52,720 Speaker 2: Blowing up drug boats not an active war. 297 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 4: Well, I mean I think it is. 298 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:57,280 Speaker 8: I mean, we have some of my colleagues are debating 299 00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,400 Speaker 8: that issue, but we're not normally blowing up drug boats. 300 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 8: I mean, it appears that we are guilty of serious 301 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,720 Speaker 8: human rights crimes by actually palming survivors who are begging 302 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:13,479 Speaker 8: for help. Again, you know, Congress ought to be demanding 303 00:14:14,440 --> 00:14:17,680 Speaker 8: a clearly defined mission in terms. 304 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:20,040 Speaker 4: Of what he is doing in Venezuela, and up to. 305 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,800 Speaker 8: This point there have been very few question questions and 306 00:14:22,840 --> 00:14:24,480 Speaker 8: he's provided very few answers. 307 00:14:24,640 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 2: You said something interesting, A functioning Congress is back off 308 00:14:28,560 --> 00:14:30,240 Speaker 2: what we're talking about here for a minute. We are 309 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 2: in a world now where it does seem that discharge 310 00:14:32,960 --> 00:14:37,200 Speaker 2: petitions and reconciliation bills are the only way to get 311 00:14:37,240 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 2: anything done in the Congress. Do you feel that way? 312 00:14:40,600 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: There's the Rules Committee, you know, yeah. 313 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,960 Speaker 8: I mean, this Congress under Republican leadership does not function. 314 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,320 Speaker 8: It is not working. It is a terrible disservice to 315 00:14:49,360 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 8: the American people. This is a place where trivial issues 316 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,080 Speaker 8: are getting debated passionately, and important ones not at all. 317 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 8: I mean, we have a healthcare crisis right now. People 318 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 8: are seeing their healthcare premiums skyrocket. People are deciding to 319 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:04,360 Speaker 8: go without health insurance next year because the costs are 320 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 8: so high. We need to be talking about extending the 321 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:09,960 Speaker 8: ACA tax credits so that people can afford their health insurance. 322 00:15:10,200 --> 00:15:12,320 Speaker 4: And we're not doing that. We're talking about. 323 00:15:12,080 --> 00:15:15,600 Speaker 8: Stupid stuff, stuff that is probably not even going to 324 00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,720 Speaker 8: go even be considered by the Senate, that is going nowhere. 325 00:15:18,920 --> 00:15:21,720 Speaker 8: I mean, again, Congress, a functioning Congress means that we 326 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 8: do the work of the American people. And I'd like 327 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 8: to think, no matter what your politics may be, you know, 328 00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 8: making sure that we are addressing issues of affordability, which includes. 329 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:32,400 Speaker 4: The cost of health care a front center. 330 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:35,280 Speaker 8: I mean, if the Republicans have a plan, then bring 331 00:15:35,360 --> 00:15:37,320 Speaker 8: the plan to us, let's debate it and vote on it. 332 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, they've got nothing. 333 00:15:38,440 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about healthcare, because they Republicans put up 334 00:15:41,120 --> 00:15:43,720 Speaker 2: a bill in the Senate yesterday. It failed. Then the 335 00:15:43,720 --> 00:15:47,120 Speaker 2: Democratic plan failed. The Democratic plan, of course, would extend 336 00:15:47,120 --> 00:15:52,240 Speaker 2: Obamacare subsidies. The Republican plan produced by bil Cassidy would 337 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,440 Speaker 2: have health savings accounts Congress. When I spoke with Nicole 338 00:15:54,440 --> 00:15:57,720 Speaker 2: Malia Takis yesterday, who is signed on to a bipartisan 339 00:15:57,720 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 2: effort in the House, d's and RS that would extend 340 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 2: the subsidies, would add some eligibility controls as well, because 341 00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 2: someone like Nicole Maliatakas is not a fan of the 342 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,400 Speaker 2: affordable character. She told us yesterday. Let's listen. 343 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 10: Well, there's so much fraud here, which is why we 344 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 10: think we have the proper balance, and this gives us 345 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 10: enough time, by the way, to then work over the 346 00:16:20,160 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 10: next year or two to be able to come up 347 00:16:22,600 --> 00:16:26,360 Speaker 10: with something that can truly replace the affordable character and 348 00:16:26,440 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 10: bring costs down. Now, what the Speaker and leadership are 349 00:16:28,840 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 10: saying is that we're going to take up a health 350 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,960 Speaker 10: savings account measure which will help people certainly with their 351 00:16:35,000 --> 00:16:39,040 Speaker 10: medical costs, and I support that initiative, but it doesn't 352 00:16:39,080 --> 00:16:40,120 Speaker 10: go far enough. 353 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 2: Okay, but this is unlikely to see the floor unless 354 00:16:45,120 --> 00:16:46,960 Speaker 2: the discharge petition makes that happen. 355 00:16:47,000 --> 00:16:49,000 Speaker 8: But even if we do with the discharge petition route, 356 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:51,160 Speaker 8: we won't be able to get to it until probably 357 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:52,080 Speaker 8: in early January. 358 00:16:52,120 --> 00:16:52,320 Speaker 2: Sure. 359 00:16:52,680 --> 00:16:55,280 Speaker 8: My question to Representative Valiatakas says, like, where the hell 360 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:57,960 Speaker 8: have you been? I mean, you're a Republican, your party's 361 00:16:57,960 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 8: in charge. We've been talking about this issue months. This 362 00:17:01,120 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 8: is not something that's just right since before the shutdown, 363 00:17:03,800 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 8: well before we've been talking about it during reconciliation, right, 364 00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,280 Speaker 8: So we go back months and months and months, and 365 00:17:09,280 --> 00:17:11,080 Speaker 8: we were saying we got to focus on this, and 366 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:13,560 Speaker 8: all we've been hearing from Republicans is like, oh, yeah, 367 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:14,879 Speaker 8: we'll get to it, we'll get to it. And now 368 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:17,560 Speaker 8: we're out of time. People are going to lose their 369 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:21,200 Speaker 8: health insurance. Healthcare ought to be considered a fundamental human 370 00:17:21,320 --> 00:17:24,200 Speaker 8: right for everybody in this country. You know, I mean, 371 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 8: you need health care. If you don't have health care, 372 00:17:26,600 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 8: you end up in an emergency room, right, you know, 373 00:17:28,640 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 8: I mean, this is this is crazy. So look, I 374 00:17:31,200 --> 00:17:33,679 Speaker 8: there were a number of discharge petitions that are going 375 00:17:33,760 --> 00:17:38,000 Speaker 8: to that have been introduced with various approaches to helping 376 00:17:38,040 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 8: people afford their health insurance. I mean, let's let let's 377 00:17:40,480 --> 00:17:42,120 Speaker 8: figure out what the best one is and let's move 378 00:17:42,160 --> 00:17:45,959 Speaker 8: on it. But the stalling and the excuses and the 379 00:17:46,160 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 8: finer pointing it has to end. You know, we we 380 00:17:48,920 --> 00:17:50,760 Speaker 8: have been We want to debate this issue, we want 381 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:52,440 Speaker 8: to vote on this issue. We want to help the 382 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 8: millions of people in this country who are about to 383 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:55,160 Speaker 8: get screwed. 384 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,359 Speaker 2: What's the conversation in Worcester, Massachusetts right now if you 385 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,600 Speaker 2: stop in square and ask somebody about their health insurance. 386 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,600 Speaker 2: Are they seeing these increases in dropping off the rolls 387 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: or are they saying I can't afford it any way? 388 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: So to your point, I'm going to go to the 389 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:12,240 Speaker 2: emergency room, I guess so. 390 00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:15,760 Speaker 8: I mean, we're hearing some really terrible stories of people 391 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,760 Speaker 8: basically saying I can't afford by health insurance. Our office 392 00:18:18,800 --> 00:18:21,760 Speaker 8: is getting indudated with calls. Look at people in Worcester 393 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,960 Speaker 8: just want us to do our job, and they get it. 394 00:18:25,000 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 8: There are differences between Democrats and Republicans, but at the 395 00:18:28,080 --> 00:18:30,159 Speaker 8: end of the day, they want us to get something done. 396 00:18:30,280 --> 00:18:32,320 Speaker 8: You don't have to agree on everything to agree on something, 397 00:18:32,720 --> 00:18:35,280 Speaker 8: but whatever that's something is, it has to be about 398 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,560 Speaker 8: improving the quality of life for the people who live 399 00:18:37,560 --> 00:18:40,359 Speaker 8: in worstern all around the country. And the problem with 400 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 8: what some of the what the Senate did on the 401 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,360 Speaker 8: Republican side is the stuff that they're proposing. 402 00:18:44,760 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 4: You know, it doesn't mean anything in anybody's life. 403 00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 8: I mean, you know, saying I'm fixing healthcare, but in reality, 404 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:53,280 Speaker 8: not fixing healthcare, not making it more affordable, well that 405 00:18:53,320 --> 00:18:55,639 Speaker 8: doesn't help anybody, right. You know, we ought to have 406 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,960 Speaker 8: a larger discussion how we fix our entire health care 407 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,360 Speaker 8: system because it's a mess, it's too for profit oriented. 408 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,480 Speaker 8: But we're not going to do that in a week 409 00:19:03,560 --> 00:19:06,440 Speaker 8: or two. Right right now, we need to extend these 410 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,240 Speaker 8: tax credits so that millions of people don't see their 411 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 8: premium skyrocket and millions don't lose their health insurance. 412 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:14,520 Speaker 2: We've only got about a minute left here. A terminal 413 00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:18,240 Speaker 2: user just wrote us while we're talking, ask the congressman 414 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,640 Speaker 2: why the ACA failed that they designed. Maybe I can 415 00:19:23,720 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: reframe that a bit. A lot of Republicans come on 416 00:19:25,720 --> 00:19:28,440 Speaker 2: the air and they say this thing was never affordable 417 00:19:28,560 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 2: Obamacare itself has raised premiums. Is this plan broken? 418 00:19:32,119 --> 00:19:32,919 Speaker 4: No, look at it. 419 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 8: I think it's not perfect. Yeah, but it is better 420 00:19:36,520 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 8: than the alternative, which is no ACA. Right. I mean, 421 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,119 Speaker 8: the bottom line is millions and millions of people have 422 00:19:41,200 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 8: now have coverage because of the Affordable Care out You know, 423 00:19:44,520 --> 00:19:47,639 Speaker 8: if we extended the tax credits, it's affordable. But as 424 00:19:47,680 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 8: I said, we need, we need to have a bigger conversation. 425 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:50,560 Speaker 4: Look at it. 426 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:51,760 Speaker 8: If it was up to me, we would have a 427 00:19:51,800 --> 00:19:54,440 Speaker 8: Medicare for all system. When I was the chairman of 428 00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,639 Speaker 8: the Rules Committee, we were the first committee need the 429 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,240 Speaker 8: Houser Senate to do a hearing. I'm Medicare for All, 430 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:01,399 Speaker 8: and I'll tell you it was a very, very powerful hearing. 431 00:20:01,760 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 8: But you know, to fix healthcare holistically, you know it's 432 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 8: going to take some time. In the meantime, let's extend 433 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 8: those tax credits. Let's let's let's help people afford their 434 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:10,600 Speaker 8: health insurance. 435 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,760 Speaker 2: Let's talk when the War Powers Act hits the floor. 436 00:20:12,760 --> 00:20:15,000 Speaker 2: We've got a lot more to talk about. Congressman. Let's 437 00:20:15,000 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 2: do this next time at Coney Island. All right, I'm 438 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 2: with you onions or no, yeah, with ion with onions. 439 00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 2: It's the only way to best set dogs in the world. 440 00:20:20,960 --> 00:20:23,640 Speaker 2: They really are too. I'm Joe Matthew and Washington Congressman 441 00:20:23,720 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: Jim McGovern of Massachusetts. This is Bloomberg. Stay with us 442 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 2: on Balance of Power. We'll have much more coming up 443 00:20:29,040 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 2: after this. 444 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: You're listening to the Bloomberg Balance of Power podcast. Catch 445 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:43,520 Speaker 1: us live weekdays at noon and five pm Eastern on 446 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,879 Speaker 1: Apple Cocklay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. 447 00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our 448 00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:53,280 Speaker 1: flagship New York station. Just say Alexa, you made it 449 00:20:53,320 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 1: to the threshold thirty Hopeful weekend. 450 00:20:56,119 --> 00:20:58,399 Speaker 2: And if you're in Indiana, you might be a little 451 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,960 Speaker 2: worried about federal funding as the President found the line 452 00:21:03,000 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 2: on redistricting. That's the big question today in Washington after 453 00:21:06,640 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 2: the latest swing at the ball failed in Indiana. This 454 00:21:12,080 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 2: is the latest state attempting to redraw its congressional map 455 00:21:17,680 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 2: to try to favor Republicans in the midterm elections. We've 456 00:21:20,800 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 2: been through this started in Texas, went to California. They've 457 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,680 Speaker 2: all been bound up in court. But I guess not 458 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 2: the case in Indiana because the state Senate with forty 459 00:21:32,040 --> 00:21:39,520 Speaker 2: Republicans and ten Democrats decisively rejected this whole idea to 460 00:21:39,640 --> 00:21:43,800 Speaker 2: refit the congressional map. We talked about this just a 461 00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:47,880 Speaker 2: couple of days ago with Congressman Stutzman from Indiana. Here's 462 00:21:47,880 --> 00:21:48,439 Speaker 2: what he told us. 463 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:52,160 Speaker 11: In Indiana, I think the maps were actually very favorable 464 00:21:52,200 --> 00:21:54,800 Speaker 11: to the Democrats. If we're going to play partisan politics. 465 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 11: Indiana is a nine zero state, and so the Republican 466 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,200 Speaker 11: friends in the state legislature there need to realize we're 467 00:22:01,200 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 11: a national battle here. This isn't just about Indiana. It's 468 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,679 Speaker 11: a national battle where we need to be sure that 469 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 11: there's equal representation in Washington for. 470 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:13,760 Speaker 2: Hoosiers, well, not so much. Let's assemble our panel for 471 00:22:13,800 --> 00:22:16,359 Speaker 2: their take on it, because this is an evolving story 472 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:17,800 Speaker 2: and it's one that we're going to be talking about, 473 00:22:17,840 --> 00:22:21,200 Speaker 2: probably for many more weeks to come, with other states 474 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 2: in the mix. See what they're doing in Virginia right now, 475 00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 2: the conversations that they're having even in New York. Bloomberg 476 00:22:28,840 --> 00:22:32,439 Speaker 2: Politics contributor Geenie Shanzano is here Democracy visiting fellow at 477 00:22:32,440 --> 00:22:36,879 Speaker 2: Harvard Kennedy School's Ash Center. And Rick Davis, Republican strategist 478 00:22:36,920 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: and partner at Stone Court Capital, Rick. How are we 479 00:22:40,440 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 2: looking at this, because if you read the commentary in 480 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,080 Speaker 2: the tip sheets in Washington, the angle that everyone is 481 00:22:46,119 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 2: taking is Donald Trump finally hit the wall that his 482 00:22:49,520 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 2: influence has been checked by a Republican legislature. Is that 483 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:57,399 Speaker 2: the fact or is this just another stop on the 484 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,439 Speaker 2: road to rewriting congressional maps all over the country. 485 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:04,760 Speaker 3: I think it's probably more one stop on the road. 486 00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 3: I mean, there's obviously a lot more going on than 487 00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 3: just Indiana. And yet at the same time, I mean, 488 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:15,600 Speaker 3: the president and the Vice president were heavily invested in 489 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 3: flipping the state to get better pick up two extra seats, 490 00:23:21,920 --> 00:23:25,240 Speaker 3: and so they kind of made it about them, right. 491 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 3: They didn't do this discreetly. They didn't say, you know, 492 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,439 Speaker 3: to the Senate pro tem, hey, bray uh, you know, 493 00:23:32,520 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 3: once you pick up a couple of seats, and that 494 00:23:35,200 --> 00:23:37,600 Speaker 3: would really help us out in Washington and and be 495 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 3: great for the state of Indiana. They really hit these 496 00:23:41,760 --> 00:23:45,640 Speaker 3: guys hard, and for various reasons. You know, more than 497 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:49,399 Speaker 3: twenty Republicans said no. And it wasn't just one person, 498 00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 3: it wasn't just a holdout. It was a pretty universal 499 00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 3: pushback from the Republicans there, and I think you could 500 00:23:58,960 --> 00:24:01,680 Speaker 3: trace it to a lot of different reasons. One, some 501 00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,200 Speaker 3: people just disagree with this kind of midterm redistricting. Two, 502 00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,000 Speaker 3: you know, a lot of people were threatened and didn't 503 00:24:08,040 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 3: feel good about that and wanted to push back because 504 00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,960 Speaker 3: they felt they were being treated poorly. The three, they 505 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 3: worry about the consequences of diluting all these districts you 506 00:24:17,920 --> 00:24:21,399 Speaker 3: and I have talked about dumb redistricting. They are particularly 507 00:24:21,400 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 3: worried about that where you got a Trump plus ten 508 00:24:24,280 --> 00:24:26,719 Speaker 3: district and all of a sudden, you know, you lose. 509 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:31,080 Speaker 3: So there were literally dozens of different reasons for people 510 00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:34,120 Speaker 3: who vote the way they did, and yet it's certainly 511 00:24:34,160 --> 00:24:35,960 Speaker 3: looking like a big rebuke to the president. 512 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 2: Well, it's hard to not see it that way. I guess, Genie. 513 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 2: This is a thirty one to nineteen defeat in a 514 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 2: state that Donald Trump won by almost twenty percentage points. 515 00:24:49,040 --> 00:24:52,120 Speaker 2: Is there an opening here? Yeah? 516 00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:54,480 Speaker 9: And I don't think Rick heard the president because the 517 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:56,919 Speaker 9: President said, oh, I didn't work too hard on that. 518 00:24:56,960 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 12: I was barely involved in that, and what would happened? 519 00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 9: Yeah, you know, the fact is, to Rick's point, there 520 00:25:04,640 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 9: are a lot of reasons that people could have pushed 521 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 9: back on this. One of them is just plain simple math. 522 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 9: I mean, you look, Democrats are all performing by thirteen 523 00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:18,399 Speaker 9: percent and off in special elections this year. If you 524 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,239 Speaker 9: take all those Republicans who are under thirteen percent and 525 00:25:22,280 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 9: then you say you're going to redistrict, you put people 526 00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 9: who might be safe at risk. So the math doesn't 527 00:25:29,040 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 9: help this. But there's also the reality. If you're a 528 00:25:32,359 --> 00:25:36,320 Speaker 9: Republican in Indiana and you're looking at Washington, d C. 529 00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:39,280 Speaker 12: What are you seeing for the last few. 530 00:25:39,040 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 9: Weeks Republicans pushing back on the president with absolutely no 531 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:51,520 Speaker 9: repercussions from Ebstein, Marjorie Taylor Green, the Pete Hegseth issue, healthcare. 532 00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:53,840 Speaker 9: I mean, the list goes on and on, not just 533 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 9: taking on Donald Trump, but Mike Johnson as well. 534 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:58,240 Speaker 12: So I think there's also a. 535 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:01,800 Speaker 9: Little bit of freedom here as the president's of poll 536 00:26:01,920 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 9: numbers are plummeting and Republicans are feeling in bolden to say. 537 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:09,679 Speaker 12: Hey, I can't just follow this guy. I've got to 538 00:26:09,720 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 12: watch my own math. 539 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 9: This is what happens, and so the president has to 540 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,880 Speaker 9: wake up to that, and there's not a lot he 541 00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 9: can do. My understanding is if they try to primary 542 00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,080 Speaker 9: these folks, that's after the midterm. I don't know how 543 00:26:23,119 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 9: this helps Donald Trump. 544 00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,600 Speaker 2: Well. A lot of questions about the fallout here hashtag 545 00:26:29,720 --> 00:26:33,600 Speaker 2: pass the Map. In a post on Twitter yesterday morning 546 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:37,560 Speaker 2: ten thirty am, It's been viewed almost seven million times. 547 00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:42,840 Speaker 2: This post was made when most people thought that it 548 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:50,280 Speaker 2: was likely to pass Heritage Action i e. Heritage Foundation. Rick. 549 00:26:50,359 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 2: The post says President Trump has made it clear to 550 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,520 Speaker 2: Indiana leaders if the Indiana Senate fails to pass the map, 551 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 2: all federal funding will be stripped from the state. Roads 552 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,920 Speaker 2: will not be paved. Guard bases will close, major projects 553 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:07,560 Speaker 2: will stop. These are the stakes, and every no vote 554 00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:11,320 Speaker 2: will be to blame. What's Indiana in for here? 555 00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 4: Rick? 556 00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 3: Yeah, I must say, Folks who I talked to who 557 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:19,439 Speaker 3: were involved in sort of monitoring what was going on 558 00:27:19,480 --> 00:27:24,200 Speaker 3: in Indiana State legislature when that hit from the Heritage Foundation, 559 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 3: probably three Republicans at least switched their vote to vote 560 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:33,479 Speaker 3: against the measure because it angered him so much. So, 561 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 3: I mean, I think all these things have consequences. Whether 562 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:39,879 Speaker 3: the President actually follows up on that. It wasn't a 563 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 3: direct threat by the President, you know, he has a 564 00:27:42,560 --> 00:27:45,040 Speaker 3: way of making these threats and then not living up 565 00:27:45,080 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 3: to him. It's kind of the domestic version of Taco 566 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,200 Speaker 3: and the reality is all we can do is wait 567 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,760 Speaker 3: and see. Indiana is a core Republican state. Last thing 568 00:27:55,800 --> 00:28:00,720 Speaker 3: you want is president, you know, sort of punishing Republicans 569 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 3: for something that really is a non material issue to 570 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:06,720 Speaker 3: most everyday voters. 571 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:13,639 Speaker 2: It's another free taco Friday. I guess, Genie, so is 572 00:28:13,680 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 2: the story the opposite of what the president said? To 573 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,640 Speaker 2: your point he told reporters, you know, I wasn't really 574 00:28:18,680 --> 00:28:21,879 Speaker 2: working on that. Did he in fact overplay his hand? 575 00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:24,120 Speaker 12: I think he absolutely did. 576 00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 9: I think this was an unforced error on the part 577 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,719 Speaker 9: of the president. I think if you want to play politics, 578 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 9: there was a way to do this rather subtly. You 579 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:34,639 Speaker 9: don't send the vice president out there to harangue people. 580 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 12: You don't have your. 581 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:39,560 Speaker 9: Son going off on social media haranguing people. You know, 582 00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:44,160 Speaker 9: I'm laughing when you're talking about this heritage heritage tweet 583 00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,560 Speaker 9: or social media. You know, Kevin Roberts has a lot 584 00:28:47,600 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 9: of problems over at Heritage. 585 00:28:49,800 --> 00:28:52,440 Speaker 12: But what do we think Donald Trump is going to say? 586 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 9: Probably the same thing he said on the campaign trail 587 00:28:54,640 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 9: about Project twenty twenty five. I don't know who these 588 00:28:57,200 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 9: people are. I never made this threat. Never heard of you, 589 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:03,160 Speaker 9: the Heritage Foundation or Kevin Roberts. You know, the whole 590 00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 9: thing is an unforced error on the part of the 591 00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 9: president and his team. We've always talked about the fact 592 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,760 Speaker 9: that redistricting at this point is a fraught endeavor, and 593 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:18,000 Speaker 9: you have to be careful what you wished for. Donald 594 00:29:18,000 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 9: Trump went into this assuming that if he won these 595 00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:23,720 Speaker 9: districts that he could pull them through in the midterm. 596 00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 9: That is not necessarily the case. He would be far 597 00:29:26,800 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 9: better off focusing like a laser beam on fixing the 598 00:29:30,440 --> 00:29:34,520 Speaker 9: economy and prices and inflation than he would by going 599 00:29:34,600 --> 00:29:37,239 Speaker 9: out and redistricting, which seems to at this point at 600 00:29:37,280 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 9: least have started to backfire on him. With the loss 601 00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:43,920 Speaker 9: of Indiana, they now look like they may just break 602 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 9: even on this thing. If other Democratic states go further, 603 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 9: they could even lose seats in this game. So this 604 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:54,880 Speaker 9: is not a good a good situation for the Republicans 605 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:55,280 Speaker 9: to be in. 606 00:29:55,320 --> 00:29:57,600 Speaker 12: It will probably be a wash in the end, but 607 00:29:57,920 --> 00:29:59,440 Speaker 12: it's a waste of time. 608 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,200 Speaker 9: He should have focused on what he promised, which was 609 00:30:02,200 --> 00:30:05,720 Speaker 9: his economic agenda and his pull numbers are falling through 610 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 9: the floor. 611 00:30:06,440 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 2: At this point, Genie points us right back to Rick's 612 00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:16,440 Speaker 2: dummy mandaring. If Republicans were so turned off by this yesterday, Rick, 613 00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 2: does this impact efforts in other red states? 614 00:30:20,280 --> 00:30:24,400 Speaker 3: It could. We've seen Kansas take a similar line, not 615 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,400 Speaker 3: really wanting to jump into this for some of the 616 00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:31,680 Speaker 3: same reasons. And we've seen democratic states, I mean, Maryland, 617 00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: the leadership in the state Senate there has actually sounded 618 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:40,200 Speaker 3: a lot like the leadership in Indiana. Democrats and Republicans 619 00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:43,840 Speaker 3: can both feel the same way about monkeying with their districts, 620 00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:48,120 Speaker 3: and so I do think there is you know, like 621 00:30:48,160 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 3: the physics of politics and opposite and equal reaction. You know, 622 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:55,440 Speaker 3: California and Texas did their things, and now everybody else's 623 00:30:55,480 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 3: sort of, jeez, do we really have to walk the 624 00:30:57,640 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 3: plank on this. It's really not healthy for our state politics. 625 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 3: And so let's see. I kind of agree with Jennie 626 00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 3: that at the end of all this, you know, whether 627 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,280 Speaker 3: there's one or two seat advantaged by either party is 628 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 3: almost irrelevant to what we think is going to potentially 629 00:31:15,640 --> 00:31:18,640 Speaker 3: happen in this elections. And if you listen to the 630 00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:23,080 Speaker 3: Republican National Committee chairman. He's predicting a dire outcome in 631 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 3: the midterms, and so a couple of seats are probably 632 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:26,920 Speaker 3: not gonna make that much different. 633 00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:28,160 Speaker 4: Yeah. 634 00:31:28,200 --> 00:31:30,560 Speaker 2: Wow, Hey, Genie, I'm going to throw you a curveball. 635 00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:32,600 Speaker 2: He said something that got me thinking a couple of 636 00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 2: minutes ago. I believe it was Epstein. You know what 637 00:31:36,200 --> 00:31:40,200 Speaker 2: nobody's talking about in Washington. That deadline to release the 638 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 2: Epstein files that came from a discharge petition signed by 639 00:31:43,880 --> 00:31:47,600 Speaker 2: the president is one week from today. I know that 640 00:31:47,640 --> 00:31:50,880 Speaker 2: the Democrats are trickling out more pictures, more photographs today 641 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:55,960 Speaker 2: showing Bill Clinton, Woody Allen, Donald Trump. But are we 642 00:31:56,000 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 2: going to see the files in a week? 643 00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 12: Alan Erschowitz, the goes on, Joe. 644 00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 9: You know, if Steve's like the Steve Bannon, it's like 645 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 9: a really, really bad situation for the White House. I'm 646 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 9: going to be curious to hear what the President has 647 00:32:13,600 --> 00:32:16,520 Speaker 9: to say if he takes questions from reporters at. 648 00:32:16,600 --> 00:32:17,680 Speaker 12: I believe it's three PM. 649 00:32:17,720 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 9: You'd know better than I do if his bill signing, 650 00:32:20,600 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 9: if he is going to take questions. I'm certain some 651 00:32:24,760 --> 00:32:27,800 Speaker 9: of these pictures that the Democrats have released today, and 652 00:32:27,840 --> 00:32:30,080 Speaker 9: there's a lot more to go are going to come up, 653 00:32:30,720 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 9: and some of them, including some that I can't name, 654 00:32:33,720 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 9: they don't show anything illegal, but certainly things that people 655 00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:39,320 Speaker 9: will find disgusting. 656 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 12: And so what does the president do? 657 00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 9: I believe we have the nineteenth the twentieth, they're going 658 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 9: to have to make a decision, and of course we 659 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 9: have a law that he must release or the DOJ 660 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:54,280 Speaker 9: must release. My suspicion all along has been they will 661 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,280 Speaker 9: try to hide under an active investigation, but I'm not 662 00:32:58,440 --> 00:33:01,120 Speaker 9: so certain that's going to be palatable at this point. 663 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,080 Speaker 2: Just thirty seconds, Rick, should Americans prepare to see these 664 00:33:05,120 --> 00:33:06,720 Speaker 2: files unveiled next week? 665 00:33:08,160 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 4: Yeah? 666 00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:10,680 Speaker 3: I get the impressions kind of falling off the front 667 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:14,320 Speaker 3: page to most Americans, But obviously the run up to 668 00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:17,160 Speaker 3: this on Friday next week will start to get more 669 00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 3: and more intensity around it, maybe even after today's presser 670 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:24,239 Speaker 3: with the President III. So yeah, I think that there 671 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 3: are a lot of people, especially in Mago, who want 672 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 3: to see the truth. 673 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:30,520 Speaker 2: Well, there you have it. That means everyone's going to 674 00:33:30,560 --> 00:33:32,720 Speaker 2: be listening at three. We'll see if the President's on time. 675 00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:36,959 Speaker 2: Rick Davis and Jeanie Shanzino live from Washington. I'm Joe Matthew. 676 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: This is Bloomberg. Thanks for listening to the Balance of 677 00:33:42,840 --> 00:33:46,360 Speaker 2: Power podcast. Make sure to subscribe if you haven't already, 678 00:33:46,360 --> 00:33:49,720 Speaker 2: at Apple, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts, and 679 00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:52,360 Speaker 2: you can find us live every weekday from Washington, DC 680 00:33:52,520 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 2: at new time Eastern at Bloomberg dot com.