1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:23,116 Speaker 1: Pushkin. A while ago, my colleague Bend A daff Haffrey 2 00:00:23,116 --> 00:00:26,516 Speaker 1: and I gathered to eat English muffins at the Pushkin office. 3 00:00:26,956 --> 00:00:29,116 Speaker 1: Ben had the idea to do a story about the 4 00:00:29,156 --> 00:00:34,516 Speaker 1: famous secret recipe for Thomas's English muffins. It sounded like 5 00:00:34,516 --> 00:00:37,076 Speaker 1: a fun romp. Go for it, I said, have a 6 00:00:37,076 --> 00:00:41,516 Speaker 1: good time, enjoy yourself. And then a couple months down 7 00:00:41,556 --> 00:00:44,876 Speaker 1: the road, Ben recorded the following voice memo. 8 00:00:46,036 --> 00:00:50,356 Speaker 2: It's five sixteen am. I just had a dream where 9 00:00:50,556 --> 00:00:54,476 Speaker 2: I was in an Airbnb with someone who was affiliated 10 00:00:54,516 --> 00:00:59,316 Speaker 2: with benbo Bakers, who knew I was trying to reverse 11 00:00:59,396 --> 00:01:03,396 Speaker 2: engineer the muffin recipe. He's this bald guy who with 12 00:01:03,836 --> 00:01:06,156 Speaker 2: a mustache, I want to say. He was wearing a 13 00:01:06,356 --> 00:01:09,236 Speaker 2: card again. We were playing pool in this area, and 14 00:01:12,716 --> 00:01:17,196 Speaker 2: he said, how much flour and how much water do 15 00:01:17,276 --> 00:01:20,956 Speaker 2: you think we start with? Because if you tell me that, 16 00:01:21,116 --> 00:01:24,276 Speaker 2: it'll tell me if you're even close to knowing how 17 00:01:24,316 --> 00:01:24,796 Speaker 2: we do this. 18 00:01:26,316 --> 00:01:29,476 Speaker 1: It was clear that Ben had gone very deep into 19 00:01:29,516 --> 00:01:32,276 Speaker 1: the nooks and crannies of this story, but this work 20 00:01:32,356 --> 00:01:35,676 Speaker 1: was too important to stop. In case you missed our 21 00:01:35,796 --> 00:01:38,916 Speaker 1: previous episode, let me catch you up. One of the 22 00:01:38,956 --> 00:01:42,196 Speaker 1: most famous trade secrets of all time is the recipe 23 00:01:42,316 --> 00:01:45,716 Speaker 1: for Thomas's English muffins. It involves how they create their 24 00:01:45,796 --> 00:01:49,356 Speaker 1: famous nooks and crannies, the most distinctive feature of a 25 00:01:49,436 --> 00:01:52,996 Speaker 1: nearly half a billion dollar product. The owner of Thomas's, 26 00:01:53,316 --> 00:01:57,676 Speaker 1: Bimbo Bakri's GROUPO Bimbo, say this secret was allegedly known 27 00:01:57,996 --> 00:02:01,036 Speaker 1: to only seven employees of the company, and they sued 28 00:02:01,076 --> 00:02:03,716 Speaker 1: one of them to keep him from taking another job, 29 00:02:04,156 --> 00:02:07,076 Speaker 1: which set off a whole race in corporate America to 30 00:02:07,116 --> 00:02:10,636 Speaker 1: lock up as many trade secrets as possible. Soon, the 31 00:02:10,676 --> 00:02:13,876 Speaker 1: corporate world could look a lot more mystical and secretive. 32 00:02:14,796 --> 00:02:17,796 Speaker 1: And all this had been many many years later to 33 00:02:17,876 --> 00:02:21,036 Speaker 1: wonder how hard can it be to make a muffin? 34 00:02:22,556 --> 00:02:25,716 Speaker 1: So he set out to try and reverse engineer the 35 00:02:25,756 --> 00:02:29,196 Speaker 1: famous Thomas's English Muffins recipe. 36 00:02:31,356 --> 00:02:32,876 Speaker 2: I said, are you one of the seven? And it 37 00:02:32,916 --> 00:02:38,076 Speaker 2: was the recipe and he nodded ah. And he was 38 00:02:38,116 --> 00:02:41,996 Speaker 2: pretty mad at me, and he said, you're me after 39 00:02:42,036 --> 00:02:42,796 Speaker 2: my livelihood. 40 00:02:43,756 --> 00:02:47,836 Speaker 1: You're coming after my livelihood, Ben, But it's too late 41 00:02:47,876 --> 00:02:50,796 Speaker 1: to turn back. He's in too deep. He's told me 42 00:02:51,276 --> 00:02:57,396 Speaker 1: he might even have to go to the CIA. I'm 43 00:02:57,436 --> 00:03:01,116 Speaker 1: Malcolm Gleavell. You're listening to Revisionist History, my show about 44 00:03:01,116 --> 00:03:06,076 Speaker 1: things overlooked and misunderstood. This season, we've taken on a 45 00:03:06,116 --> 00:03:09,796 Speaker 1: great many foes, the haters of paw Patrol, the absurd 46 00:03:09,836 --> 00:03:13,596 Speaker 1: claims of RFK Junior, the lazy interviewing style of Joe Rogan. 47 00:03:14,876 --> 00:03:19,596 Speaker 1: But now we're taking on our biggest opponent yet, Big Muffin, 48 00:03:20,516 --> 00:03:24,916 Speaker 1: because their trade secret represents a rising tide of secrecy 49 00:03:25,196 --> 00:03:29,036 Speaker 1: that's coming for us all. And so we shall persist 50 00:03:29,356 --> 00:03:35,316 Speaker 1: despite our nightmares. We must reverse engineer the English muffin. 51 00:03:43,676 --> 00:03:44,396 Speaker 3: And here it is. 52 00:03:46,196 --> 00:03:50,956 Speaker 4: The Muffin House three three seven was twentieth Street, built 53 00:03:50,956 --> 00:03:54,436 Speaker 4: as a foundry circle eighteen fifty. Samuel Beth Thomas converted 54 00:03:54,436 --> 00:03:56,956 Speaker 4: the ovens for his English muffin bakery in the early 55 00:03:57,036 --> 00:04:00,156 Speaker 4: twentieth century. I'm reading from a plaque in front of 56 00:04:00,196 --> 00:04:03,636 Speaker 4: the house where the inventor of Thomas's English muffins once baked. 57 00:04:04,436 --> 00:04:06,476 Speaker 4: It's in Chelsea, just a couple of blocks from the 58 00:04:06,516 --> 00:04:11,156 Speaker 4: offices of Pushkin Industries. Nineteen years ago, the owner of 59 00:04:11,196 --> 00:04:14,756 Speaker 4: the first floor apartment was taking out a radiator. He 60 00:04:14,916 --> 00:04:18,716 Speaker 4: lifted up some of the floorboards and discovered a door. 61 00:04:19,636 --> 00:04:23,636 Speaker 4: It was the remnants of Samuel bath Thomas's oven. I 62 00:04:23,676 --> 00:04:27,716 Speaker 4: was hoping somebody could show it to me. I rang 63 00:04:27,756 --> 00:04:34,676 Speaker 4: the doorbell, no answer. Clearly Bimbo Bakeries had gotten here first. 64 00:04:35,436 --> 00:04:38,076 Speaker 4: This was a recurring problem. I tried to hire some 65 00:04:38,116 --> 00:04:41,236 Speaker 4: culinary researchers to help reverse engineer the trademark Nooks and 66 00:04:41,236 --> 00:04:45,476 Speaker 4: Cranni's recipe, but Bimbo was a client. After all, they 67 00:04:45,516 --> 00:04:48,196 Speaker 4: are one of the largest baking conglomerates in the world. 68 00:04:48,836 --> 00:04:50,796 Speaker 4: I rang a bunch of doorbells and no one answered. 69 00:04:51,156 --> 00:04:54,396 Speaker 4: I sent a lot of emails that went unreturned, but 70 00:04:54,476 --> 00:04:56,716 Speaker 4: a few grave bakers were willing to talk to me 71 00:04:56,876 --> 00:05:00,156 Speaker 4: at least about the Nooks and Crannies in general. For 72 00:05:00,196 --> 00:05:04,036 Speaker 4: their own protection, we're not identifying them by name, So 73 00:05:04,196 --> 00:05:06,116 Speaker 4: am I the muffin man or not? I guess it's 74 00:05:06,116 --> 00:05:06,596 Speaker 4: a question. 75 00:05:06,996 --> 00:05:09,516 Speaker 5: My question for you is is this like your trying 76 00:05:09,556 --> 00:05:12,796 Speaker 5: to create their exact products? 77 00:05:13,476 --> 00:05:16,476 Speaker 4: Can we make this exact English? 78 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:16,916 Speaker 3: Okay? 79 00:05:17,796 --> 00:05:20,556 Speaker 4: The vibe I was getting was mild interest, laced with 80 00:05:20,596 --> 00:05:22,716 Speaker 4: a healthy dose of are you okay? 81 00:05:23,396 --> 00:05:25,796 Speaker 5: It's fairly intriguing, but it's also something that can be 82 00:05:25,836 --> 00:05:30,036 Speaker 5: super time consuming, So I personally don't like Thomas English muffins. 83 00:05:30,596 --> 00:05:33,876 Speaker 3: You know, it looks like just a normal English muffin 84 00:05:33,956 --> 00:05:38,876 Speaker 3: recipe with you know, industrialized ingredient. 85 00:05:38,836 --> 00:05:42,916 Speaker 5: Sorry lesson than soy rye, soybean oil, sort big acid, 86 00:05:43,316 --> 00:05:45,116 Speaker 5: those kind of things that are going to give it 87 00:05:45,196 --> 00:05:46,436 Speaker 5: that gumminess to it. 88 00:05:46,556 --> 00:05:49,356 Speaker 4: The nificent creates come from holes in the dough, and 89 00:05:49,476 --> 00:05:53,156 Speaker 4: holes in the dough come from higher hydation. Lots of 90 00:05:53,196 --> 00:05:55,996 Speaker 4: good information on what makes a muffin an English muffin, 91 00:05:56,476 --> 00:05:59,716 Speaker 4: but little enthusiasm for my quest to make one exactly 92 00:05:59,836 --> 00:06:04,596 Speaker 4: like Thomas's. For me, this was way bigger than muffins alone. 93 00:06:04,836 --> 00:06:07,316 Speaker 4: I've learned that companies can use trade secrets as a 94 00:06:07,316 --> 00:06:10,956 Speaker 4: way to control their employees. The muffin trade secret had 95 00:06:10,956 --> 00:06:13,236 Speaker 4: put a man named Chris Botticella out of a job 96 00:06:13,596 --> 00:06:16,796 Speaker 4: Bimbo Bakeries. His employer claimed there was some deep mystery 97 00:06:16,876 --> 00:06:20,116 Speaker 4: to how Thomas's English muffins were manufactured, and this, it 98 00:06:20,156 --> 00:06:22,436 Speaker 4: seemed to me, had given them all too much power. 99 00:06:23,596 --> 00:06:27,116 Speaker 4: My plan was to test a reverse engineered muffin against 100 00:06:27,116 --> 00:06:30,676 Speaker 4: Thomas's to see if anyone could tell the difference. If not, 101 00:06:31,396 --> 00:06:35,396 Speaker 4: that would end the mystical power of their secret. But 102 00:06:35,436 --> 00:06:38,476 Speaker 4: I lacked the necessary skills to do this alone. One 103 00:06:38,516 --> 00:06:41,796 Speaker 4: baker asked me for several thousand dollars to do the job. 104 00:06:42,396 --> 00:06:45,116 Speaker 4: That's not crazy, seeing as the secret recipe brings in 105 00:06:45,156 --> 00:06:48,036 Speaker 4: almost half a billion a year for Bambo, But for 106 00:06:48,076 --> 00:06:52,076 Speaker 4: a complicated set of reasons involving journalistic ethics and poverty, 107 00:06:52,676 --> 00:06:55,516 Speaker 4: it was a non starter. I needed a true believer. 108 00:06:55,996 --> 00:06:59,436 Speaker 4: I needed a zealot. I needed a superstar. 109 00:07:00,476 --> 00:07:04,436 Speaker 6: On this Donut Showdown, three superstar bakers elevate the humble 110 00:07:04,476 --> 00:07:06,436 Speaker 6: donut to new culinary heights. 111 00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:09,676 Speaker 4: This is a clip from a twenty fourteen episode of 112 00:07:09,716 --> 00:07:13,316 Speaker 4: the short lived Cooking Channel show Donut Showdown. If you've 113 00:07:13,316 --> 00:07:17,036 Speaker 4: never seen Donut Showdown, congratulations. 114 00:07:16,676 --> 00:07:18,316 Speaker 6: Let's say hello to our competitors. 115 00:07:18,516 --> 00:07:22,036 Speaker 4: Three contestants compete in a variety of donut baking challenges 116 00:07:22,196 --> 00:07:25,956 Speaker 4: for a ten thousand dollars prize. This episode featured a 117 00:07:25,956 --> 00:07:29,076 Speaker 4: former architect, a pastry chef with a background in molecular 118 00:07:29,076 --> 00:07:30,996 Speaker 4: gastronomy who says things like. 119 00:07:31,236 --> 00:07:33,676 Speaker 7: I'm the overlord of pastry. 120 00:07:33,636 --> 00:07:39,036 Speaker 4: Overlord, and Rachel Wyman, head baker at the Montclair Bread Company. 121 00:07:39,116 --> 00:07:41,836 Speaker 5: I've been baking since I was old enough to hold 122 00:07:41,836 --> 00:07:43,956 Speaker 5: a pastry bag. I literally wrote my name with a 123 00:07:43,996 --> 00:07:45,396 Speaker 5: pastry bag before pencils. 124 00:07:46,476 --> 00:07:50,436 Speaker 4: Rachel Wyman has a baker's warmth about her angular red hair, 125 00:07:50,596 --> 00:07:53,476 Speaker 4: a little like Knuckles and Sonic the Hedgehog. She's a 126 00:07:53,476 --> 00:07:56,116 Speaker 4: total badass. She's got a tattoo on her arm that 127 00:07:56,156 --> 00:07:59,996 Speaker 4: says flower water, yeast, salt. Of course she makes it 128 00:08:00,036 --> 00:08:03,836 Speaker 4: to the final showdown. It's Rachel versus the Overlord of pastry. 129 00:08:04,356 --> 00:08:11,236 Speaker 6: At least one of your donuts must include avocado. 130 00:08:11,596 --> 00:08:15,436 Speaker 4: Rachel lands on avocado whipped cream on a treslacious donut 131 00:08:15,596 --> 00:08:19,196 Speaker 4: with the Sangreea filling. The food Scientist is going with 132 00:08:19,236 --> 00:08:23,116 Speaker 4: a notcho flavored donut. To my mind, these both sound disgusting, 133 00:08:23,476 --> 00:08:27,156 Speaker 4: but in the midst of it all, Rachel is having 134 00:08:27,236 --> 00:08:29,036 Speaker 4: a beautiful mind moment with her flower. 135 00:08:29,516 --> 00:08:32,116 Speaker 5: The flower that I'm used to using is about eleven 136 00:08:32,156 --> 00:08:36,356 Speaker 5: percent twelve percent protein, and my options were a nine 137 00:08:36,356 --> 00:08:38,996 Speaker 5: percent protein or thirteen percent protein, So we had to 138 00:08:39,076 --> 00:08:42,156 Speaker 5: lend the flowers together. The last thing that I want 139 00:08:42,196 --> 00:08:44,036 Speaker 5: is to send the judges chewy donuts. 140 00:08:44,636 --> 00:08:48,036 Speaker 4: It turns out that Rachel is a doe genius. But 141 00:08:48,196 --> 00:08:48,796 Speaker 4: was it enough? 142 00:08:49,516 --> 00:08:55,436 Speaker 6: Rachel, you made two perfect does, but your sangreea filling 143 00:08:56,356 --> 00:09:01,876 Speaker 6: was a risk that didn't pay off. The winner of 144 00:09:01,916 --> 00:09:09,836 Speaker 6: this donut showdown is Rachel. Congratulations, one of ten thousand 145 00:09:09,876 --> 00:09:11,076 Speaker 6: dollars Russ Rachel. 146 00:09:12,796 --> 00:09:16,476 Speaker 4: Rachel gets emotional. I get emotional because what I see 147 00:09:16,516 --> 00:09:19,836 Speaker 4: before me at last is a baker who just might 148 00:09:19,956 --> 00:09:23,116 Speaker 4: be crazy enough to take on the secret recipe for 149 00:09:23,236 --> 00:09:24,556 Speaker 4: Thomas's English muffin. 150 00:09:25,316 --> 00:09:25,996 Speaker 3: I look her up. 151 00:09:26,556 --> 00:09:29,876 Speaker 4: She teaches baking and pastry arts at the Culinary Institute 152 00:09:29,876 --> 00:09:34,276 Speaker 4: of America, the most prestigious culinary school in the country, 153 00:09:34,836 --> 00:09:35,476 Speaker 4: the CIA. 154 00:09:36,716 --> 00:09:38,876 Speaker 5: So what I was going to tell you a couple 155 00:09:38,996 --> 00:09:42,596 Speaker 5: things because I neglected to send you the anything about me. 156 00:09:42,996 --> 00:09:46,796 Speaker 5: I used to do recipe development for a company that 157 00:09:46,956 --> 00:09:50,196 Speaker 5: created products for grocery stores all over the country, so 158 00:09:50,836 --> 00:09:55,996 Speaker 5: reverse engineering. It was like my jam, Oh, I'm saying, yeah, 159 00:09:55,996 --> 00:09:58,636 Speaker 5: this is exactly what would happen. They would bring me 160 00:09:59,316 --> 00:10:02,356 Speaker 5: a sample of something they wanted, and this was Wegman's 161 00:10:02,356 --> 00:10:03,756 Speaker 5: and Target and Whole. 162 00:10:03,516 --> 00:10:05,516 Speaker 4: Foods, and I worked with that. 163 00:10:06,076 --> 00:10:06,756 Speaker 3: Yeah. 164 00:10:06,916 --> 00:10:09,436 Speaker 5: No, so I made the bread on the cheese cake 165 00:10:09,476 --> 00:10:10,316 Speaker 5: factory table. 166 00:10:10,396 --> 00:10:11,036 Speaker 3: Oh my god. 167 00:10:11,396 --> 00:10:14,156 Speaker 5: So I lived in this space that you're doing this 168 00:10:14,236 --> 00:10:14,756 Speaker 5: story on. 169 00:10:14,996 --> 00:10:17,076 Speaker 4: I didn't even know that this was a space. I 170 00:10:17,076 --> 00:10:21,676 Speaker 4: mean it is a big space. Rachel checked in with 171 00:10:21,716 --> 00:10:25,036 Speaker 4: the CIA green light. She and I were going to 172 00:10:25,076 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 4: reverse engineer Thomas's nooks and crannies. The trade secret of 173 00:10:28,876 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 4: the muffin involves the process, recipe and machines, but any 174 00:10:32,716 --> 00:10:35,156 Speaker 4: major baking company knows how to make bread at scale. 175 00:10:35,596 --> 00:10:38,676 Speaker 4: It's the principles behind the nooks and crannies that were 176 00:10:38,716 --> 00:10:42,156 Speaker 4: the key thing. We began to have regular debriefing calls. 177 00:10:42,876 --> 00:10:48,596 Speaker 5: I I'm driving home from school, so uh yeah, it's 178 00:10:48,636 --> 00:10:49,436 Speaker 5: going really well. 179 00:10:50,036 --> 00:10:53,196 Speaker 4: Rachel was all in. She even enlisted her students in 180 00:10:53,236 --> 00:10:54,836 Speaker 4: the effort, and I have. 181 00:10:55,476 --> 00:10:57,556 Speaker 5: So many English muffins in the classroom. 182 00:10:58,036 --> 00:11:01,676 Speaker 4: The first recipes were a bust. No nooks or crannies. 183 00:11:02,476 --> 00:11:06,636 Speaker 5: The inside of the Thomases almost reminds me of like 184 00:11:06,716 --> 00:11:12,556 Speaker 5: a dense pancake, like a batter that's almost poured. So 185 00:11:12,876 --> 00:11:15,836 Speaker 5: we decided that we need to add more hydration to 186 00:11:15,996 --> 00:11:20,796 Speaker 5: our dough. We're gonna overproof it on purpose, so it 187 00:11:20,916 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 5: sits a little flatter on the griddle. Our our's got 188 00:11:24,476 --> 00:11:26,596 Speaker 5: a lot of loft, so we kind of have to 189 00:11:26,676 --> 00:11:28,076 Speaker 5: make them a little crappier. 190 00:11:29,556 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 4: But making things crappier turned out to be a bit 191 00:11:32,396 --> 00:11:33,676 Speaker 4: of a challenge for Rachel. 192 00:11:34,676 --> 00:11:38,476 Speaker 5: Like, the difficulty is that the Thomas's muffin is gray 193 00:11:39,076 --> 00:11:41,916 Speaker 5: and ours is uh not, So I think I can 194 00:11:41,996 --> 00:11:44,316 Speaker 5: just get a lower quality flower and work with that. 195 00:11:44,516 --> 00:11:47,476 Speaker 5: And also I've been buttering the griddle, but like also 196 00:11:47,556 --> 00:11:50,996 Speaker 5: we're using you know, plue gras, like eighty four percent 197 00:11:51,156 --> 00:11:55,316 Speaker 5: butter fat butter. It's like super yellow. I mean, so 198 00:11:55,516 --> 00:11:57,596 Speaker 5: I need to get I think I'm just gonna oil it. 199 00:11:57,676 --> 00:11:59,876 Speaker 5: And then the students even pointed out there's no butter 200 00:12:00,076 --> 00:12:02,996 Speaker 5: in the ingredient deck, so they're not using butter on 201 00:12:03,076 --> 00:12:05,836 Speaker 5: any surface, So I'll just use the same oil. 202 00:12:07,596 --> 00:12:08,836 Speaker 4: Students are keeping you honest. 203 00:12:09,396 --> 00:12:12,076 Speaker 5: I know they are, they really are. I mean the 204 00:12:12,556 --> 00:12:18,956 Speaker 5: flavor yesterday was amazing, but not like Thomas, And they're like, chef, 205 00:12:18,996 --> 00:12:20,796 Speaker 5: you just need to make it taste worse. 206 00:12:22,236 --> 00:12:24,556 Speaker 4: Rachel and her students kept tinkering for about a week. 207 00:12:24,996 --> 00:12:28,356 Speaker 4: Every so often she'd send me photos their muffins went 208 00:12:28,396 --> 00:12:30,796 Speaker 4: from a flat surface on the interior to these big, 209 00:12:30,916 --> 00:12:34,196 Speaker 4: uneven lunar craters. I was starting to think that maybe 210 00:12:34,196 --> 00:12:39,676 Speaker 4: this really was a secret, uncrackable recipe, but then Rachel 211 00:12:39,756 --> 00:12:43,276 Speaker 4: sent me a photo of two muffins riddled with these small, deep, 212 00:12:43,636 --> 00:12:47,756 Speaker 4: perfect nooks and crannies. Other than the color, I couldn't 213 00:12:47,756 --> 00:12:50,916 Speaker 4: tell a difference between the classes nooks and crannies and Thomas's. 214 00:12:52,436 --> 00:12:53,996 Speaker 4: It was time for me to come up to the 215 00:12:54,036 --> 00:12:57,956 Speaker 4: CIA at Hyde Park to meet her in person, finalize 216 00:12:57,956 --> 00:13:00,676 Speaker 4: the recipe, and then put it to a blind taste 217 00:13:00,716 --> 00:13:13,836 Speaker 4: test to see if she'd actually pulled it off. Like 218 00:13:13,876 --> 00:13:17,636 Speaker 4: all the great American culinary schools, the Culinary Institute of 219 00:13:17,676 --> 00:13:20,676 Speaker 4: America is in a fight to the death with federal 220 00:13:20,756 --> 00:13:27,036 Speaker 4: law enforcement acronym versus acronym, the CIA versus the Central 221 00:13:27,076 --> 00:13:30,236 Speaker 4: Intelligence Agency. You would think that at some point in 222 00:13:30,276 --> 00:13:33,636 Speaker 4: its nearly seventy five years of existence, the president of 223 00:13:33,676 --> 00:13:36,756 Speaker 4: the Culinary Institute of America would have said, you know what, 224 00:13:37,556 --> 00:13:42,196 Speaker 4: our acronym has become a distraction. It's the American Culinary Institute. 225 00:13:42,196 --> 00:13:44,956 Speaker 4: Now you can have its spooks, take the bugs out 226 00:13:44,996 --> 00:13:49,796 Speaker 4: of my office, stop following me home. But no, the 227 00:13:49,836 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 4: Culinary Institute of America is not changing its name for anyone. 228 00:14:00,036 --> 00:14:02,916 Speaker 4: I took the train up in April. The campus sits 229 00:14:02,916 --> 00:14:05,476 Speaker 4: along the Hudson River in Hyde Park, New York, on 230 00:14:05,516 --> 00:14:09,076 Speaker 4: the grounds of an old Jesuit novitiate, gracious brick buildings, 231 00:14:09,396 --> 00:14:13,356 Speaker 4: photos of famous alumni on the wall, Anthony Bourdain. It's 232 00:14:13,396 --> 00:14:17,996 Speaker 4: a kind of culinary temple, little chapels, vaulted ceilings, stained glass. 233 00:14:18,516 --> 00:14:20,876 Speaker 4: The doors to the main hall have a crest with 234 00:14:20,956 --> 00:14:26,716 Speaker 4: three griffins and the school's motto cybus vite est Food 235 00:14:27,076 --> 00:14:27,556 Speaker 4: is Life. 236 00:14:28,276 --> 00:14:31,556 Speaker 8: There's a reoccurring themale around the campus too, of like 237 00:14:31,676 --> 00:14:33,276 Speaker 8: what came first, the chicken or the egg. 238 00:14:33,836 --> 00:14:37,516 Speaker 4: I'm getting a tour from baking business student Hannah Dawkins. 239 00:14:37,716 --> 00:14:40,276 Speaker 4: She was graduating in a semester and was filling me 240 00:14:40,356 --> 00:14:43,356 Speaker 4: in on campus lore. Do you have a strong position, Yeah. 241 00:14:43,236 --> 00:14:44,876 Speaker 8: I feel like the egg definitely came first. 242 00:14:46,236 --> 00:14:48,716 Speaker 4: We were walking through a library, one floor of which 243 00:14:48,756 --> 00:14:51,636 Speaker 4: is all recipe books organized according to a system I 244 00:14:51,676 --> 00:14:56,276 Speaker 4: had never before encountered nutrition, gastronomy, kitchen equipment. As we 245 00:14:56,316 --> 00:14:59,916 Speaker 4: walked through campus, I noticed all the pedestrian crossing signs 246 00:14:59,916 --> 00:15:03,276 Speaker 4: had a cartoon person in a chef's hat a toque, which, 247 00:15:03,436 --> 00:15:06,116 Speaker 4: true to life, was what everyone wore or the teachers, 248 00:15:06,156 --> 00:15:09,036 Speaker 4: at least the students all had these small skull caps on. 249 00:15:09,596 --> 00:15:12,196 Speaker 4: You know you've chosen a great profession when only at 250 00:15:12,196 --> 00:15:15,116 Speaker 4: the highest rank, do you get to wear the silliest hat? 251 00:15:15,316 --> 00:15:16,596 Speaker 4: We entered the baking building. 252 00:15:17,076 --> 00:15:19,396 Speaker 8: So in this class they learned how to do sugar work, 253 00:15:19,476 --> 00:15:23,596 Speaker 8: chocolate show pieces, and fondant, So that swan is totally 254 00:15:23,596 --> 00:15:24,276 Speaker 8: made out of sugar. 255 00:15:24,636 --> 00:15:27,756 Speaker 4: Why is she using a steamer on her cake over there? 256 00:15:27,876 --> 00:15:30,836 Speaker 8: It gives it like a nice, like glossy look. 257 00:15:31,836 --> 00:15:34,876 Speaker 4: It was becoming clear to me that this is the 258 00:15:34,916 --> 00:15:36,476 Speaker 4: greatest college in America. 259 00:15:36,676 --> 00:15:41,916 Speaker 8: This is contemporary Cakes, Chocolates, Advanced baking principles, Late of 260 00:15:41,956 --> 00:15:45,716 Speaker 8: Dessert's class. Like, there's the freshman what at fifteen at 261 00:15:45,796 --> 00:15:48,276 Speaker 8: other schools, I would say, being at the culinary, it's 262 00:15:48,316 --> 00:15:49,436 Speaker 8: more like a freshman fifty. 263 00:15:50,116 --> 00:15:52,916 Speaker 4: The plan was to use CIA students as guinea pigs 264 00:15:52,916 --> 00:15:55,756 Speaker 4: in our muffin test. Could they tell the difference between 265 00:15:55,796 --> 00:16:00,036 Speaker 4: the reverse engineered muffin and the real Thomases except as 266 00:16:00,076 --> 00:16:03,676 Speaker 4: handon toward me around campus? I was slowly realizing that 267 00:16:03,756 --> 00:16:08,196 Speaker 4: this particular audience of testers might be a little too smart. 268 00:16:09,156 --> 00:16:12,516 Speaker 7: Vitamond was essentially testing a claim that adding baking soda 269 00:16:12,596 --> 00:16:16,556 Speaker 7: to onions when catamalizing them can reduce the cook diime 270 00:16:16,596 --> 00:16:17,036 Speaker 7: in half. 271 00:16:17,196 --> 00:16:20,116 Speaker 8: I wanted to look at how refrigerating cookie dough before 272 00:16:20,156 --> 00:16:23,596 Speaker 8: baking is going to affect the final alcohol differences between 273 00:16:23,676 --> 00:16:27,116 Speaker 8: ricotta made with vinegar, citric acid, and lemon juice. 274 00:16:27,116 --> 00:16:28,596 Speaker 4: So do you even know that you could make that? 275 00:16:28,636 --> 00:16:31,796 Speaker 1: You made ricotta with any of Yeah, so you make 276 00:16:31,876 --> 00:16:33,636 Speaker 1: ricotta with an acigilant. 277 00:16:33,676 --> 00:16:37,956 Speaker 4: So that's an acid A sigilant who says is vigilant. 278 00:16:38,836 --> 00:16:41,116 Speaker 4: Even the school's fight song was inscrutable. 279 00:16:42,676 --> 00:16:47,396 Speaker 8: Okay, So it's mirror pla, mere pae dice about chop 280 00:16:47,436 --> 00:16:51,236 Speaker 8: it up, put it in the stew, mer Pa. 281 00:16:52,716 --> 00:16:54,956 Speaker 4: She could not believe I didn't know the meaning of 282 00:16:54,996 --> 00:16:57,996 Speaker 4: the word mirror pla. Do you know the meaning of 283 00:16:58,036 --> 00:17:01,036 Speaker 4: the word mir pa? Well, as I learned, it is 284 00:17:01,076 --> 00:17:04,796 Speaker 4: a ratio for soup bass two parts onion, one part carrot, 285 00:17:05,076 --> 00:17:09,956 Speaker 4: one part celery, and four parts esoteric. You're welcome. And 286 00:17:10,076 --> 00:17:13,556 Speaker 4: here I was thinking these food geniuses could be fooled 287 00:17:13,556 --> 00:17:17,676 Speaker 4: by my taste test. I headed over to Rachel's classroom 288 00:17:17,916 --> 00:17:22,556 Speaker 4: Bakeshop nine. Rachel was communing with the muffin dough. 289 00:17:23,276 --> 00:17:27,876 Speaker 5: Like every time you stretch gluten, it freaks out a 290 00:17:27,916 --> 00:17:31,396 Speaker 5: little bit, and you have to let it rest so 291 00:17:31,476 --> 00:17:34,196 Speaker 5: that it will relax enough to do the next thing. 292 00:17:34,636 --> 00:17:39,556 Speaker 5: I took the dough out of the refrigerator and I 293 00:17:39,596 --> 00:17:44,036 Speaker 5: have flattened it into a pan. So it's the right 294 00:17:44,116 --> 00:17:45,716 Speaker 5: thickness for our muffins. 295 00:17:46,556 --> 00:17:48,836 Speaker 4: If anyone could pull this off, it was going to 296 00:17:48,876 --> 00:17:52,156 Speaker 4: be Rachel. We were making English muffins from two recipes. 297 00:17:52,196 --> 00:17:56,436 Speaker 4: She'd created one using the ingredients listed on the Thomas's package, 298 00:17:56,676 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 4: including vinegar. Now having that list is helpful, but the 299 00:18:00,436 --> 00:18:03,876 Speaker 4: ingredients only tell you so much. Baking, like mir POAs, 300 00:18:04,276 --> 00:18:08,036 Speaker 4: is all about ratios and process. Rachel was making a 301 00:18:08,076 --> 00:18:10,876 Speaker 4: second batch with sour though, which was her own spin. 302 00:18:11,516 --> 00:18:13,916 Speaker 4: We were going to taste both see which was closer 303 00:18:13,956 --> 00:18:16,476 Speaker 4: to Thomas's, and then put it up against the real 304 00:18:16,516 --> 00:18:18,036 Speaker 4: thing in the blind taste test. 305 00:18:19,356 --> 00:18:23,636 Speaker 5: I can open this one to this perfect that's pretty amazing. 306 00:18:24,596 --> 00:18:26,476 Speaker 4: Look at that. That looks really good. 307 00:18:26,796 --> 00:18:27,796 Speaker 5: It's a little bit. 308 00:18:27,996 --> 00:18:29,996 Speaker 4: I don't see a difference. I don't see a difference. 309 00:18:30,276 --> 00:18:31,596 Speaker 5: Oh my gosh, look at that. 310 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:35,916 Speaker 4: They look identical. But it was amazing. I called the 311 00:18:35,956 --> 00:18:38,516 Speaker 4: students over see what they made of it. Do you 312 00:18:38,556 --> 00:18:39,676 Speaker 4: really think this is gonna work? 313 00:18:39,836 --> 00:18:40,556 Speaker 1: I actually do. 314 00:18:41,116 --> 00:18:44,676 Speaker 4: I do very optimistic because I just by looking at them, 315 00:18:44,676 --> 00:18:47,756 Speaker 4: they look completely like exactly the same. We ran a 316 00:18:47,796 --> 00:18:50,956 Speaker 4: mini test where the kids tasted the fresh muffins against Thomas's, 317 00:18:51,236 --> 00:18:53,236 Speaker 4: and I quickly learned that they did not think as 318 00:18:53,276 --> 00:18:55,276 Speaker 4: highly of Thomas's English muffins as I did. 319 00:18:56,636 --> 00:18:57,876 Speaker 5: So, I don't like English muffins. 320 00:18:57,876 --> 00:19:00,316 Speaker 4: Doesn't it taste like so you just spat it out. 321 00:19:01,116 --> 00:19:03,236 Speaker 5: I've never liked English muffins my whole life, because this 322 00:19:03,276 --> 00:19:06,556 Speaker 5: is what I've always been offered. It smells like box, 323 00:19:06,916 --> 00:19:07,996 Speaker 5: like cardboards. 324 00:19:08,196 --> 00:19:10,636 Speaker 4: You think if it gets stale, there might be a 325 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:12,756 Speaker 4: chance we pull this off that people can't tell. 326 00:19:12,996 --> 00:19:14,556 Speaker 5: I think it'll be pulled off. Well. 327 00:19:18,036 --> 00:19:20,236 Speaker 4: The key was to let our muffins get stale so 328 00:19:20,236 --> 00:19:23,396 Speaker 4: they matched Thomas's. Rachel had made a batch the day before, 329 00:19:23,596 --> 00:19:25,716 Speaker 4: which she'd left out in the open for this purpose. 330 00:19:26,116 --> 00:19:28,356 Speaker 4: For the test, we were gonna cut the muffins into 331 00:19:28,356 --> 00:19:31,276 Speaker 4: sixteenths and put them in egg cartons. That would give 332 00:19:31,316 --> 00:19:34,916 Speaker 4: us enough samples for about one hundred tests. But as 333 00:19:34,956 --> 00:19:37,836 Speaker 4: we cut up Rachel's muffins from the day before, it 334 00:19:37,956 --> 00:19:41,356 Speaker 4: was clear that they were a little too crusty. We 335 00:19:41,516 --> 00:19:45,476 Speaker 4: left them out uncovered, and they'd gotten very stale. We 336 00:19:45,476 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 4: were both worried, and then Rachel found a bag of 337 00:19:49,956 --> 00:19:51,796 Speaker 4: muffins under her desk. 338 00:19:52,196 --> 00:19:53,876 Speaker 5: These have been sitting in a bag. 339 00:19:53,676 --> 00:19:56,596 Speaker 4: For like all week, so these are the same as 340 00:19:56,676 --> 00:19:57,956 Speaker 4: the final recipe. 341 00:19:59,076 --> 00:20:00,516 Speaker 5: These are the vinegar recipe. 342 00:20:00,916 --> 00:20:03,156 Speaker 4: Look at that, it looks like exactly like a Thomas's. 343 00:20:04,716 --> 00:20:08,876 Speaker 4: It looked exactly like a Thomas's, and to me it 344 00:20:09,196 --> 00:20:14,436 Speaker 4: tasted exactly like a Thomas's. We began furiously slicing them up. 345 00:20:14,756 --> 00:20:18,516 Speaker 4: This kind of last minute dramatic switch of the plan 346 00:20:18,676 --> 00:20:23,476 Speaker 4: is exactly there's two minutes until the test starts. We 347 00:20:23,556 --> 00:20:27,076 Speaker 4: finished right on schedule. We wheeled our samples out into 348 00:20:27,076 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 4: the packed student cafeteria. 349 00:20:29,396 --> 00:20:31,636 Speaker 5: You know, it's like when you when your kids play 350 00:20:32,156 --> 00:20:36,396 Speaker 5: sports and you're like super nervous for them, even though 351 00:20:36,396 --> 00:20:37,596 Speaker 5: it has no bearing ones. 352 00:20:42,516 --> 00:20:45,356 Speaker 4: It was time to pit our formula against the greatest 353 00:20:45,356 --> 00:20:58,876 Speaker 4: culinary minds in America. Cue the fight song. Hello everybody, 354 00:21:00,596 --> 00:21:03,596 Speaker 4: My goodness. At some point in your life, I hope 355 00:21:03,636 --> 00:21:08,596 Speaker 4: you experience a moment so absurd, so profoundly unrecognizable, that 356 00:21:08,676 --> 00:21:12,516 Speaker 4: you haven't of body experience. For me, that moment was 357 00:21:12,556 --> 00:21:15,796 Speaker 4: standing in the cafeteria at the CIA, addressing a crowd 358 00:21:15,836 --> 00:21:19,436 Speaker 4: of culinary students in white uniforms and skull caps regarding 359 00:21:19,516 --> 00:21:23,036 Speaker 4: the several hundred egg cartons I had filled with English muffins. 360 00:21:23,836 --> 00:21:26,956 Speaker 4: So in each of these cartons there's a slice of 361 00:21:26,996 --> 00:21:30,116 Speaker 4: English muffin. Two of them the same, are the same, 362 00:21:30,156 --> 00:21:33,396 Speaker 4: one of them is different. Using tastes, I want you 363 00:21:33,436 --> 00:21:35,716 Speaker 4: to tell me which number is different. I had marked 364 00:21:35,756 --> 00:21:39,036 Speaker 4: each muffin section with numbers like three oh two, three 365 00:21:39,156 --> 00:21:42,396 Speaker 4: forty eight, and one twenty nine, blinding codes so people 366 00:21:42,436 --> 00:21:46,196 Speaker 4: wouldn't be biased by ABC or one two three. In 367 00:21:46,236 --> 00:21:49,316 Speaker 4: each test, you either had two Thomases and one Rachel's 368 00:21:49,396 --> 00:21:52,316 Speaker 4: or two Rachels and one Thomas's. Exactly. I knew which 369 00:21:52,396 --> 00:21:55,676 Speaker 4: numbers marked the odd muffin out. The goal was to 370 00:21:55,676 --> 00:21:59,316 Speaker 4: see if they could tell. If they could, we'd failed, 371 00:21:59,916 --> 00:22:01,596 Speaker 4: which one do you think is different than the others? 372 00:22:02,156 --> 00:22:04,996 Speaker 4: That was a wrong answer, but most of. 373 00:22:04,956 --> 00:22:07,516 Speaker 5: Them see, I think it was four. 374 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:11,876 Speaker 4: That's different, ninety nine is different, it's one, nine, pretty sure, 375 00:22:11,876 --> 00:22:16,076 Speaker 4: it's one. Pretty quickly it became clear that we were 376 00:22:16,116 --> 00:22:19,396 Speaker 4: on track for over sixty percent of people correctly guessing 377 00:22:19,436 --> 00:22:23,556 Speaker 4: which muffin was not like the others. This was not working. 378 00:22:24,276 --> 00:22:29,556 Speaker 4: We're getting smoke so far, we're invasively destroying it. Looked 379 00:22:29,596 --> 00:22:32,516 Speaker 4: like our entire plan was going to fail. We took 380 00:22:32,556 --> 00:22:36,476 Speaker 4: on Bimbo Bakeri's legendary trade secret, and just like in 381 00:22:36,516 --> 00:22:41,156 Speaker 4: Bimbo Bakeries versus Cris Botaicella, we were losing and the 382 00:22:41,236 --> 00:22:50,556 Speaker 4: secret was winning. We'll be right back. I want to 383 00:22:50,636 --> 00:22:52,796 Speaker 4: leave the muffin test for a moment to tell you 384 00:22:52,876 --> 00:22:56,396 Speaker 4: about a rabbit hole. I fell down while researching this episode. 385 00:22:56,636 --> 00:22:59,116 Speaker 4: I was trying to articulate why the idea that the 386 00:22:59,236 --> 00:23:02,076 Speaker 4: nooks and crannies were a trade secret bothered me so much, 387 00:23:02,916 --> 00:23:05,996 Speaker 4: so I began studying other trade secrets and secret recipes. 388 00:23:06,876 --> 00:23:10,156 Speaker 4: One of the most famous is for cur called chartreuse. 389 00:23:11,076 --> 00:23:15,236 Speaker 4: Chartreuse has been made by a French monastic order, the Carthusians, 390 00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:18,636 Speaker 4: based on a mysterious recipe that was gifted to them 391 00:23:18,796 --> 00:23:23,276 Speaker 4: in sixteen oh five. This recipe is a very closely 392 00:23:23,276 --> 00:23:28,276 Speaker 4: guarded secret. Nooks and crannies for fancy cocktails. I learned 393 00:23:28,276 --> 00:23:30,636 Speaker 4: that one of the Carthusian monks who'd been in charge 394 00:23:30,676 --> 00:23:33,516 Speaker 4: of chartreuse production had left the order and now lived 395 00:23:33,516 --> 00:23:36,596 Speaker 4: in New York City, so I wrote to him. His 396 00:23:36,716 --> 00:23:40,076 Speaker 4: name is father Michael Hollerin. I visited him at the 397 00:23:40,076 --> 00:23:43,396 Speaker 4: parish offices of Saint Monica's Church on the Upper East Side, 398 00:23:43,476 --> 00:23:46,276 Speaker 4: just a few days after Easter. What is known about 399 00:23:46,276 --> 00:23:47,636 Speaker 4: the origin of that recipe. 400 00:23:47,876 --> 00:23:51,276 Speaker 7: No one ever seems to have researched it. We never 401 00:23:51,356 --> 00:23:54,316 Speaker 7: knew anything more about it trying to trace it back further. 402 00:23:55,436 --> 00:23:58,716 Speaker 7: I've never seen anything on that. But the main reason 403 00:23:58,796 --> 00:24:02,356 Speaker 7: that it's different is that that it is a secret 404 00:24:02,636 --> 00:24:04,476 Speaker 7: and has been kept a secret all this time. Is 405 00:24:04,516 --> 00:24:06,596 Speaker 7: because it was simply for the support of the monks. 406 00:24:07,716 --> 00:24:10,796 Speaker 7: They were pure contemplatives. There was no sense that we 407 00:24:10,836 --> 00:24:12,396 Speaker 7: want to become rich with this, we want to make 408 00:24:12,396 --> 00:24:14,396 Speaker 7: a name for ourselves. No, all we want to do 409 00:24:14,516 --> 00:24:16,516 Speaker 7: is support ourselves, so you don't have to worry about, 410 00:24:16,556 --> 00:24:20,876 Speaker 7: you know, outside support. We can support ourselves, and had 411 00:24:20,876 --> 00:24:23,356 Speaker 7: to be kept secret so obviously so people wouldn't steal 412 00:24:23,356 --> 00:24:24,396 Speaker 7: the formula and make their own. 413 00:24:26,156 --> 00:24:29,836 Speaker 4: Originally, Chartruse was a health flixer. People took it for 414 00:24:29,876 --> 00:24:36,156 Speaker 4: all kinds of ailments, apoplexy, toothaches, palpitations, indigestion, fever. Eventually, 415 00:24:36,236 --> 00:24:38,636 Speaker 4: the monks dropped the elixir claim and it just became 416 00:24:38,676 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 4: a liqueur. But it still has this weird power. When 417 00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:46,076 Speaker 4: I drink it, I tend to have strange dreams. It 418 00:24:46,116 --> 00:24:50,196 Speaker 4: has a spicy, sweet complexity, and its color is this vivid, 419 00:24:50,436 --> 00:24:51,276 Speaker 4: alluring green. 420 00:24:52,676 --> 00:24:57,356 Speaker 7: There's a whole cabinet in own of counterfeits, controfess of 421 00:24:57,396 --> 00:24:59,756 Speaker 7: people who tried to steal it. But there have been 422 00:24:59,796 --> 00:25:04,356 Speaker 7: efforts to use the name or use something that duplicated 423 00:25:04,356 --> 00:25:06,356 Speaker 7: the formula in some way, which of course is impossible 424 00:25:06,356 --> 00:25:10,236 Speaker 7: because it's so complex, very complex. You can't just, you know, 425 00:25:10,276 --> 00:25:11,756 Speaker 7: set up a shop and make it. 426 00:25:12,876 --> 00:25:16,556 Speaker 4: Father Michael told me he was the first American Carthusian ever. 427 00:25:17,436 --> 00:25:19,796 Speaker 4: In the nineteen eighties, he lived in France at the 428 00:25:19,796 --> 00:25:23,676 Speaker 4: Grand Chartruse Monastery in the Unforgiving Mountains of the French Wilderness. 429 00:25:24,236 --> 00:25:29,476 Speaker 4: The Carthusians are famously silent order, and Father Michael was restless, 430 00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:32,636 Speaker 4: so the monks put him in charge of chartreuse. It's 431 00:25:32,676 --> 00:25:35,356 Speaker 4: not easy to make. There are one hundred and thirty 432 00:25:35,396 --> 00:25:37,836 Speaker 4: herbs that are treated in a number of different ways. 433 00:25:38,196 --> 00:25:40,676 Speaker 4: The recipe is kept on sheets and sheets of old 434 00:25:40,716 --> 00:25:44,876 Speaker 4: paper that now Father Michael had access to. But eventually, 435 00:25:44,956 --> 00:25:47,956 Speaker 4: when he left the Carthusian order and came back to 436 00:25:47,996 --> 00:25:51,036 Speaker 4: the United States with that recipe in his mind, the 437 00:25:51,076 --> 00:25:57,396 Speaker 4: monks just let him walk away. I'm curious what if 438 00:25:57,396 --> 00:26:00,876 Speaker 4: you could tell me about the process of leaving the 439 00:26:00,876 --> 00:26:05,756 Speaker 4: Carthusian Order, and whether there was any sort of effort 440 00:26:05,876 --> 00:26:08,276 Speaker 4: to make sure that you never share the recipe or 441 00:26:08,596 --> 00:26:10,236 Speaker 4: how it was conveyed to you that you should not 442 00:26:10,556 --> 00:26:11,036 Speaker 4: spread this. 443 00:26:13,556 --> 00:26:18,076 Speaker 7: Absolutely nothing nobody ever told me not to no where, 444 00:26:18,196 --> 00:26:21,756 Speaker 7: Nobody ever expressed fear that I might. Nobody ever threatened 445 00:26:21,756 --> 00:26:25,196 Speaker 7: me that I shouldn't do it. They simply trusted that 446 00:26:25,236 --> 00:26:28,116 Speaker 7: I wouldn't, And of course I wouldn't, you know, because 447 00:26:28,316 --> 00:26:30,436 Speaker 7: you know it was dedicated to them and to the 448 00:26:30,556 --> 00:26:32,916 Speaker 7: to the order. The other thing is that you know 449 00:26:34,196 --> 00:26:36,676 Speaker 7: it's too complicated to make anyway. As I said from 450 00:26:36,716 --> 00:26:39,276 Speaker 7: the beginning, I could never could never really do it, 451 00:26:39,356 --> 00:26:41,516 Speaker 7: nor have I been kidnapped, And people, a lot of 452 00:26:41,556 --> 00:26:43,836 Speaker 7: a lot of people know that that I know the recipe. 453 00:26:44,756 --> 00:26:48,196 Speaker 4: The formula for chartruse really is worth money. It's kept 454 00:26:48,236 --> 00:26:52,596 Speaker 4: the Carthusians afloat for centuries. But when Father Michael left, 455 00:26:52,996 --> 00:26:56,036 Speaker 4: they didn't threaten, punish or sue him or tell them 456 00:26:56,036 --> 00:26:59,516 Speaker 4: not to join another order, because the secret was a 457 00:26:59,556 --> 00:27:02,356 Speaker 4: bond between them, not a tool for control. 458 00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:05,556 Speaker 7: It's a it's a mysterious formula, but it's the service 459 00:27:05,556 --> 00:27:07,996 Speaker 7: of an even greater mystery, which is the monastic life 460 00:27:08,396 --> 00:27:11,396 Speaker 7: and people in community together, you know, in silence and 461 00:27:11,476 --> 00:27:15,716 Speaker 7: solitude to find union with God. So it's at the 462 00:27:15,716 --> 00:27:19,596 Speaker 7: service of a real mystery. It's even greater than the 463 00:27:19,636 --> 00:27:20,476 Speaker 7: formula for sure. 464 00:27:20,516 --> 00:27:23,196 Speaker 4: Truth is there in your mind a hierarchy between a 465 00:27:23,236 --> 00:27:26,716 Speaker 4: secret and a mystery? And how would you how would 466 00:27:26,756 --> 00:27:28,996 Speaker 4: you illustrate the difference if there is one. 467 00:27:28,836 --> 00:27:31,076 Speaker 7: Well, a mystery? I think I haven't thought of it, 468 00:27:31,116 --> 00:27:33,516 Speaker 7: but I think the mystery is a broader concept. You 469 00:27:33,556 --> 00:27:35,636 Speaker 7: speak about the mystery of God, the mystery of life, 470 00:27:35,996 --> 00:27:37,676 Speaker 7: not just like a mystery that you would read a 471 00:27:37,676 --> 00:27:41,756 Speaker 7: detective mystery. Mystery is not something that's that you don't know, 472 00:27:41,996 --> 00:27:45,636 Speaker 7: something that's unknowable in rational terms. 473 00:27:45,796 --> 00:27:48,436 Speaker 4: And a secret can you know and someone could, yeah. 474 00:27:48,276 --> 00:27:50,716 Speaker 7: And the secret is it just can be something trivial. 475 00:27:51,356 --> 00:27:55,116 Speaker 7: But a mystery in its original sense, it's just something 476 00:27:55,156 --> 00:27:58,076 Speaker 7: that's very deep and wonderful. It can never be conceptualized, 477 00:27:58,076 --> 00:27:58,956 Speaker 7: but has to be lived. 478 00:28:02,436 --> 00:28:05,076 Speaker 4: I realized that that's what bothered me about the idea 479 00:28:05,156 --> 00:28:07,956 Speaker 4: that the nooks and crannies were some legendary trade secret, 480 00:28:08,476 --> 00:28:11,516 Speaker 4: not just that an English muffin is mostly flour and water, 481 00:28:11,596 --> 00:28:15,316 Speaker 4: while chartreuse has one hundred and thirty ingredients. But that 482 00:28:15,636 --> 00:28:19,636 Speaker 4: Thomas's English muffins have all the mystification of a monastic 483 00:28:19,796 --> 00:28:23,836 Speaker 4: order and none of the mystery. It debates his mystery 484 00:28:24,356 --> 00:28:28,916 Speaker 4: and puts it in the service of corporate control. Maybe 485 00:28:28,956 --> 00:28:31,836 Speaker 4: that all sounds like a stretch to you, But it 486 00:28:31,916 --> 00:28:35,876 Speaker 4: turned out Father Michael was closer to my story than 487 00:28:35,956 --> 00:28:39,036 Speaker 4: even I had realized. I told him about our reverse 488 00:28:39,076 --> 00:28:43,756 Speaker 4: engineering project at the Culinary Institute of America and he said, well, I. 489 00:28:43,876 --> 00:28:47,596 Speaker 7: Used to live, oh really well before it became the CIA. 490 00:28:48,316 --> 00:28:49,716 Speaker 7: It was a jesuit the Vision. 491 00:28:50,076 --> 00:28:52,956 Speaker 4: He used to live on the grounds of the institute, 492 00:28:53,276 --> 00:28:53,916 Speaker 4: used to live there. 493 00:28:54,036 --> 00:28:56,796 Speaker 7: Yeah, we closed it. We were the last class there. 494 00:28:56,836 --> 00:28:58,676 Speaker 7: We closed it in nineteen sixty nine. I lived there 495 00:28:58,676 --> 00:29:01,156 Speaker 7: for two years, and we closed it as a jesuit 496 00:29:01,236 --> 00:29:03,836 Speaker 7: theavision in sixty nine, and that's when the CIA took 497 00:29:03,876 --> 00:29:06,276 Speaker 7: it over. That's where I first tasted the mystical life, 498 00:29:06,396 --> 00:29:07,916 Speaker 7: you know, the life of union was gone, and I 499 00:29:07,916 --> 00:29:11,476 Speaker 7: didn't realize, Wow, this exists. We weren't tart that in 500 00:29:11,516 --> 00:29:14,396 Speaker 7: grammar school or even in high school. Did you catch 501 00:29:14,436 --> 00:29:24,276 Speaker 7: that where I first tasted the mystical life. When we 502 00:29:24,356 --> 00:29:27,436 Speaker 7: ran that first test in the CIA cafeteria, it failed. 503 00:29:28,316 --> 00:29:31,716 Speaker 7: I felt like we'd let everyone down. In the end, 504 00:29:31,756 --> 00:29:34,316 Speaker 7: about sixty one percent of people could tell the difference 505 00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:38,196 Speaker 7: between our muffin and Thomas's. The perfect result would have 506 00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:43,476 Speaker 7: been thirty three percent. But then we ran one more test. 507 00:29:45,236 --> 00:29:47,636 Speaker 4: The next is a paired preference test, which will tell 508 00:29:47,676 --> 00:29:50,716 Speaker 4: us which they all liked better. Our first test only 509 00:29:50,756 --> 00:29:53,276 Speaker 4: told us if people knew the difference between our muffin 510 00:29:53,436 --> 00:29:55,796 Speaker 4: and the real thing. It didn't tell us if the 511 00:29:55,836 --> 00:29:59,036 Speaker 4: difference was good or bad. But now we were running 512 00:29:59,076 --> 00:30:02,236 Speaker 4: a test called paired preference. We used up all those 513 00:30:02,276 --> 00:30:05,676 Speaker 4: old vinegar based muffins Rachel found in her bag, so 514 00:30:05,716 --> 00:30:09,636 Speaker 4: we decided to use her sourdough recipe instead. Thomas' was 515 00:30:09,716 --> 00:30:13,716 Speaker 4: number one hundred and forty two and Rachel's was five 516 00:30:13,836 --> 00:30:14,316 Speaker 4: ninety eight. 517 00:30:14,916 --> 00:30:17,356 Speaker 8: I like five hundred ninety eight, five ninety eight, five 518 00:30:17,516 --> 00:30:19,796 Speaker 8: ninety eight, five hundred and ninety eight. 519 00:30:20,916 --> 00:30:24,156 Speaker 4: Nearly eighty percent of people preferred Rachel's recipe. 520 00:30:24,716 --> 00:30:27,356 Speaker 8: Five ninety eight has like like a like salty taste, 521 00:30:27,396 --> 00:30:28,436 Speaker 8: like it's more flavorable. 522 00:30:31,036 --> 00:30:35,636 Speaker 4: So no, we didn't perfectly reverse engineer the secret recipe 523 00:30:35,676 --> 00:30:39,236 Speaker 4: and process for a Thomas's English muffin. Rachel In the 524 00:30:39,316 --> 00:30:42,516 Speaker 4: students at the CIA spent a couple of weeks reverse 525 00:30:42,596 --> 00:30:46,316 Speaker 4: engineering an old secret recipe, and they made a muffin 526 00:30:46,596 --> 00:30:49,876 Speaker 4: that had the exact same nooks and crannies. It just 527 00:30:49,916 --> 00:31:02,236 Speaker 4: tasted way better some secret. When I started working on 528 00:31:02,276 --> 00:31:04,956 Speaker 4: this story, I reached out to the defendant in the case, 529 00:31:05,356 --> 00:31:08,956 Speaker 4: Chris Boticella, the baking executive Beambo accused of trying to 530 00:31:08,956 --> 00:31:12,076 Speaker 4: take the secret muffin recipe to a competitor. In all 531 00:31:12,156 --> 00:31:14,556 Speaker 4: the many pieces I'd read on the case, I'd never 532 00:31:14,556 --> 00:31:17,716 Speaker 4: seen a quote from him. For a long time, I 533 00:31:17,756 --> 00:31:21,476 Speaker 4: couldn't reach him. Then a few weeks after I got 534 00:31:21,516 --> 00:31:23,876 Speaker 4: back from the CIA, just as I was about to 535 00:31:23,876 --> 00:31:26,756 Speaker 4: put this story to bed, I finally heard from him. 536 00:31:27,556 --> 00:31:30,676 Speaker 4: After a few letters and emails, Chris and I spoke 537 00:31:30,876 --> 00:31:31,436 Speaker 4: on the phone. 538 00:31:31,996 --> 00:31:35,316 Speaker 3: I'm Italian, you can obviously you know you from accent. 539 00:31:36,036 --> 00:31:38,636 Speaker 4: He told me how he'd gotten into baking, working as 540 00:31:38,636 --> 00:31:40,996 Speaker 4: a kid at the same baking company his parents did 541 00:31:41,036 --> 00:31:43,836 Speaker 4: when they immigrated from Italy. After we'd gone over some 542 00:31:43,956 --> 00:31:46,476 Speaker 4: details of the case, I asked him how he felt 543 00:31:46,596 --> 00:31:47,276 Speaker 4: about baking. 544 00:31:47,316 --> 00:31:50,116 Speaker 3: Now, I love baking, you know. So the answer is 545 00:31:50,156 --> 00:31:52,836 Speaker 3: that to you is yeah, I still love baking. I 546 00:31:52,996 --> 00:31:56,436 Speaker 3: just don't like what happened. And yeah, I love baking. 547 00:31:57,636 --> 00:32:01,756 Speaker 3: Why do you love it well? Because you know, I 548 00:32:01,796 --> 00:32:05,876 Speaker 3: think I am one of the best bakers around. And 549 00:32:07,156 --> 00:32:12,716 Speaker 3: in your vein it's not only the blood, but it's flour. 550 00:32:13,596 --> 00:32:14,116 Speaker 3: I love it. 551 00:32:14,876 --> 00:32:17,316 Speaker 4: Chris told me he actually thinks Bimbo is a good 552 00:32:17,356 --> 00:32:19,836 Speaker 4: company to work for. He just wound up in a 553 00:32:19,836 --> 00:32:23,876 Speaker 4: bad situation. Towards the end of our conversation, I asked 554 00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:26,316 Speaker 4: him how he felt about that secret recipe at the 555 00:32:26,356 --> 00:32:29,596 Speaker 4: center of the case. I was expecting he'd be reverent 556 00:32:29,636 --> 00:32:32,076 Speaker 4: about the nooks and crannies, like Father Michael with the 557 00:32:32,076 --> 00:32:33,516 Speaker 4: formula for sure, Truce. 558 00:32:33,876 --> 00:32:38,716 Speaker 3: No, Ben, Listen, it's a bullshit. A muffin is a muffin. 559 00:32:38,756 --> 00:32:41,076 Speaker 3: It cannot be the freaking difficult to produce. A muffin 560 00:32:41,156 --> 00:32:41,636 Speaker 3: is a muffin. 561 00:32:42,836 --> 00:32:44,636 Speaker 4: Hear and Chris say this a couple of months ago 562 00:32:44,716 --> 00:32:46,476 Speaker 4: would have saved me a lot of time. 563 00:32:47,236 --> 00:32:51,436 Speaker 9: Every person that does the mixing of the product can 564 00:32:51,516 --> 00:32:55,636 Speaker 9: see it. So it's not a secured formula formula that 565 00:32:55,676 --> 00:32:58,356 Speaker 9: they keep secret. You know, in a bold somewhere. It's 566 00:32:58,636 --> 00:33:01,636 Speaker 9: it's left on the floor. It's really nobody knows the formula. 567 00:33:03,636 --> 00:33:06,996 Speaker 4: Bimbo Bakeries hadn't replied to repeated requests for comment by 568 00:33:06,996 --> 00:33:10,956 Speaker 4: the time we recorded this episode, but by now I 569 00:33:10,996 --> 00:33:16,076 Speaker 4: could believe this secret recipe was all nonsense. The best 570 00:33:16,156 --> 00:33:20,116 Speaker 4: secrets bring us together. They bind us like a monastic order. 571 00:33:20,716 --> 00:33:23,596 Speaker 4: They don't trap us. I suspect that even if someone 572 00:33:23,676 --> 00:33:26,356 Speaker 4: got into that monastery and stole the full recipe for 573 00:33:26,596 --> 00:33:29,676 Speaker 4: ar Truths, people would still rather get a bottle of 574 00:33:29,716 --> 00:33:33,636 Speaker 4: it from the monks themselves, because the secret means something 575 00:33:33,676 --> 00:33:37,236 Speaker 4: coming from them, tied as it is, to an even 576 00:33:37,276 --> 00:33:41,676 Speaker 4: greater mystery. That's why Bembo's still pretending these are Samuel 577 00:33:41,756 --> 00:33:45,996 Speaker 4: Thomas's English muffins, a century after his death. But these 578 00:33:46,036 --> 00:33:49,636 Speaker 4: Thomas's nooks and crannies now they're just a bit of marketing, 579 00:33:50,396 --> 00:33:55,396 Speaker 4: a myth that somehow became a legal standard. Anyways, the 580 00:33:55,436 --> 00:33:57,756 Speaker 4: best way to protect your nooks and crannies isn't a 581 00:33:57,756 --> 00:34:02,196 Speaker 4: trade secret. It's opening your muffins with a fork a 582 00:34:02,276 --> 00:34:03,996 Speaker 4: knife just ruins the whole thing. 583 00:34:08,316 --> 00:34:12,916 Speaker 1: The secret recipe for Rachel Wyman's improved Thomas's English muffins 584 00:34:13,076 --> 00:34:15,316 Speaker 1: can be found in our show notes. We've put the 585 00:34:15,356 --> 00:34:18,236 Speaker 1: vinegar version in there too. If you want the authentic 586 00:34:18,276 --> 00:34:20,996 Speaker 1: Thomas's flavor, leave them in a bag for a week 587 00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:24,756 Speaker 1: so they get stale. The key thing is to overproof 588 00:34:25,156 --> 00:34:29,076 Speaker 1: and refrigerate the dough. Why just ask Rachel. 589 00:34:30,516 --> 00:34:33,356 Speaker 5: If they were kept at room temperature, it would be 590 00:34:33,476 --> 00:34:37,476 Speaker 5: kind of like this. It wouldn't have enough body. I 591 00:34:37,516 --> 00:34:41,356 Speaker 5: guess it slows down the fermentation, so yeast. 592 00:34:41,756 --> 00:34:42,116 Speaker 4: It's like. 593 00:34:43,636 --> 00:34:46,556 Speaker 5: A toddler. If it's warm and you give it sugar, 594 00:34:46,636 --> 00:34:49,796 Speaker 5: it's gonna go crazy and then it's gonna die. 595 00:34:50,716 --> 00:34:53,196 Speaker 4: You you give your kids sugar, but you just keep 596 00:34:53,196 --> 00:34:53,956 Speaker 4: them very cold. 597 00:34:54,076 --> 00:34:57,396 Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, exactly totally and then and then they slow down, 598 00:34:58,396 --> 00:35:07,836 Speaker 5: so exactly. Yeah. 599 00:35:07,956 --> 00:35:11,196 Speaker 1: Revision's History is produced by Ben Dafhaffrey with Lucy Sullivan 600 00:35:11,236 --> 00:35:14,996 Speaker 1: and Nina Bird Lawrence. This episode was edited by Julia Barton, 601 00:35:15,476 --> 00:35:19,356 Speaker 1: fact checking by Kate Ferby, original scoring by Luis Kerra. 602 00:35:19,876 --> 00:35:23,596 Speaker 1: Mixing and mastering on this episode by Echo Mountain. Our 603 00:35:23,636 --> 00:35:27,356 Speaker 1: executive producer is Jacob Smith. Production support from Sarah Buguer 604 00:35:27,596 --> 00:35:31,796 Speaker 1: and Luke LeMond at Pushkin. Thanks to Karen Schakerji Jake Flanagan, 605 00:35:31,916 --> 00:35:36,036 Speaker 1: Greta Cone, Sarah Nix, Eric Sandler, Amy Hagadorn, Kira Posey, 606 00:35:36,356 --> 00:35:38,756 Speaker 1: Morgan Ratner, and Jordan McMillan. 607 00:35:39,796 --> 00:35:44,356 Speaker 4: Special thanks to Chelsea Burgas, Jonathan Frishtick, Susan Reed, William 608 00:35:44,356 --> 00:35:48,036 Speaker 4: Woyse Weaver, Corey Theodore at the Anti Conquest Baking Company, 609 00:35:48,156 --> 00:35:52,036 Speaker 4: Becky Cooper for introducing me to Shartrus, Julia Conrad, Robin 610 00:35:52,116 --> 00:35:55,036 Speaker 4: Dando and Jonathan A. Zerfoss for helping us with our 611 00:35:55,076 --> 00:35:58,356 Speaker 4: triangle test methodology, and all the students at the CIA. 612 00:35:58,956 --> 00:36:10,956 Speaker 4: Happy graduation. I'm Ben Mattafaffrey.