1 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Hello everybody, I'm Jemma Spake and welcome back to the 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: Psychology of Your Twenties, the podcast where we talk through 3 00:00:11,320 --> 00:00:16,040 Speaker 1: the biggest changes, moments, and transitions of our twenties and 4 00:00:16,040 --> 00:00:24,959 Speaker 1: what they mean for our psychology. Hello everybody, Welcome back 5 00:00:25,040 --> 00:00:28,240 Speaker 1: to the show. Welcome back to the podcast. It is 6 00:00:28,320 --> 00:00:30,840 Speaker 1: so great to have you here. Back for another episode 7 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: as we, of course break down the psychology of our twenties. Today, 8 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about a relationship style relationship dynamic that many 9 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: of you are probably familiar with, either through name or 10 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:52,199 Speaker 1: through experience. You may not have the words to describe it. 11 00:00:52,240 --> 00:00:54,120 Speaker 1: I know when I first heard about it, I didn't, 12 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,840 Speaker 1: but it's called the pursuer distancer dynamic. If you have 13 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:03,000 Speaker 1: ever been in a situation where the moment you feel 14 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: yourself getting close to somebody or closer to someone, they 15 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:11,480 Speaker 1: pull away, or where you're constantly wanting more from somebody, 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:15,680 Speaker 1: asking somebody to meet your emotional needs and they just 17 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,039 Speaker 1: feeling capable of it, or they tell you that they 18 00:01:19,040 --> 00:01:21,679 Speaker 1: feel suffocated by you or that you are too much 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:26,680 Speaker 1: that they need space, you have likely experienced this dynamic 20 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:31,679 Speaker 1: as a pursuer. Alternatively, if you have ever been in 21 00:01:31,720 --> 00:01:36,440 Speaker 1: a relationship, been in a situation where you genuinely feel 22 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: a little bit overwhelmed and you feel like you really 23 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,959 Speaker 1: need time, you really need space, you really need distance 24 00:01:43,160 --> 00:01:47,200 Speaker 1: to yourself in a relationship, you really feel pressured by somebody, 25 00:01:47,680 --> 00:01:51,000 Speaker 1: maybe even getting the ick from their affection even though 26 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:55,280 Speaker 1: you really like them. You've maybe experienced this dynamic as 27 00:01:55,720 --> 00:02:00,640 Speaker 1: the distancer. In very very simple terms, the pursuer distancer 28 00:02:00,720 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: dynamic involves one person seeking a deeper connection whilst the 29 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: other person resists it for whatever reason, and this creates 30 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,480 Speaker 1: a very frustrating cycle where one person tries to get 31 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,919 Speaker 1: closer to the other person to fulfill their own unique 32 00:02:18,960 --> 00:02:22,960 Speaker 1: emotional needs, which causes the other person to withdraw to 33 00:02:23,040 --> 00:02:27,600 Speaker 1: protect their needs to compensate for that space. Then the 34 00:02:27,639 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: pursuer tries harder to get even closer, the distancer pulls 35 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,480 Speaker 1: away even further, and you kind of see the situation 36 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: and the cycle that we end up in, and it 37 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 1: ultimately continues, and ultimately both people end up pretty unhappy 38 00:02:44,520 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: and pretty hurt. I've had so many requests for episodes 39 00:02:47,639 --> 00:02:51,080 Speaker 1: which discuss dynamics like this, especially for people in their 40 00:02:51,080 --> 00:02:53,480 Speaker 1: twenties who are kind of encountering this for the first 41 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: time and thinking like what's wrong with me? Or like 42 00:02:56,400 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: why can't I get close to somebody? Why don't people 43 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:03,880 Speaker 1: love me back? Why do I find love so hard? 44 00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,600 Speaker 1: Nothing is wrong with you, whichever role you keep falling into. 45 00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: This dynamic is just really complicated. It is formed by 46 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:15,919 Speaker 1: so many things we often have very little control over 47 00:03:16,360 --> 00:03:21,520 Speaker 1: and very little awareness over, from neurobiology to attachment style, 48 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,160 Speaker 1: to our nervous system, even to our child psychology. And 49 00:03:25,240 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: so that is what we are going to explore today. 50 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 1: What is this dynamic? Why do people find themselves in 51 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,320 Speaker 1: this dynamic? Can you get out of it? Is there 52 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:41,160 Speaker 1: something that either person can do to fix a relationship 53 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: that has fallen into this rut? And what does that 54 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:46,560 Speaker 1: look like? So that's what we're going to touch on today. 55 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,080 Speaker 1: Without further ADO, let's get into the psychology behind the 56 00:03:50,120 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: pursuer distancer relationship dynamic. On the surface, the pursuer distance dynamic, 57 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,680 Speaker 1: I think seems very intuitive, right. There's generally one person 58 00:04:03,720 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: who wants more, one person who wants less, person who 59 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: wants more. The pursuer of the person who wants less 60 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: is the distancer. I feel like we already kind of 61 00:04:12,520 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 1: went through this, but just as a reminder the pursuer. 62 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 1: Typically it's not just they want more of everything. What 63 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:25,720 Speaker 1: they really want more of is connection and intimacy and reassurance. 64 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 1: And they want to fight through their fights. They want 65 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: to know that everything's okay. They want to know why 66 00:04:32,640 --> 00:04:35,000 Speaker 1: somebody is angry with them. They want to work it 67 00:04:35,040 --> 00:04:37,880 Speaker 1: out in the moment. They want to know they're loved. 68 00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:41,800 Speaker 1: They want more date nights, they want maybe more sex. 69 00:04:41,880 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 1: They don't want enmeshment. They just want very deep intimacy, 70 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,279 Speaker 1: and that is a core need for them. In contrast 71 00:04:49,440 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: the distancer. It's not that they don't want that, it's 72 00:04:53,680 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 1: just that it's a little bit harder for them. They 73 00:04:56,040 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: prefer their alone time, they need their space. They like 74 00:04:58,880 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 1: to process things in dependently. They value quality time over 75 00:05:03,279 --> 00:05:07,120 Speaker 1: the quantity of time. They don't like feeling smothered. Sometimes 76 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:11,479 Speaker 1: they push the other person away, not because they don't 77 00:05:11,520 --> 00:05:14,479 Speaker 1: love them, not because they're not interested, but just because 78 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,479 Speaker 1: it is too much. And that can come off as 79 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,039 Speaker 1: really really dismissive. Of course it's going to it's going 80 00:05:19,120 --> 00:05:21,480 Speaker 1: to come off as if this person doesn't want to 81 00:05:21,480 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 1: be with you. It's not always like that, but I 82 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:26,719 Speaker 1: think this is like the general profile of each role, 83 00:05:27,160 --> 00:05:29,680 Speaker 1: that's typically what it will appear like from the outside. 84 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,719 Speaker 1: It's also worth noting this doesn't just happen in romantic relationships, 85 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: but in friendships as well, even sometimes with parents. One friend, 86 00:05:39,800 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 1: for example, really wants more, more, more of everything, more 87 00:05:45,720 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: one on one time, more invitations, more of a connection, 88 00:05:50,640 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: and the other person is maybe fearful of being engulfed 89 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:56,200 Speaker 1: by that friendship, fearful of becoming too dependent on that 90 00:05:56,240 --> 00:05:59,400 Speaker 1: one person, fearful of being hurt again. Like I said, 91 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: it may also have happen with parenting, where a parent 92 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,159 Speaker 1: can feel really uneasy by this idea that their whole 93 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 1: identity is going to become that of a mum or 94 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:14,640 Speaker 1: that of a dad, so they push their child to 95 00:06:14,680 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: be independent so that they can be as well. That 96 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:19,800 Speaker 1: is a whole other episode. It's a lot less common, 97 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,880 Speaker 1: maybe more common. Actually, it's really actually the root of 98 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: a lot of attachment pain. But yeah, the pursuer distance 99 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:29,920 Speaker 1: of dynamic gets a big hype in relationships, and when 100 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: you start looking for it, you kind of see it everywhere. 101 00:06:33,160 --> 00:06:36,599 Speaker 1: The thing is, it's not wholly unhealthy right in itself. 102 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,200 Speaker 1: It's not that terrible. Maybe people are going to be 103 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:42,440 Speaker 1: mad at me for saying that, but every relationship will 104 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 1: have some aspect of distancing and pursuing in it. Dare 105 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: I say it's healthy to have that chase, for both 106 00:06:49,160 --> 00:06:53,440 Speaker 1: people to occasionally play each role in a fight to 107 00:06:53,440 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: show the other person they care about them, or even 108 00:06:56,040 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: when it comes to intimacy, right to feel needed to 109 00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: also feel a little bit needy. There have been a 110 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: lot of relationship therapists who would say that the push 111 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: and pull on that level keeps a spark alive. However, 112 00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:13,000 Speaker 1: when a both people always play the same role all 113 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 1: the time, B, both people feel frustrated by the other's 114 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: reaction and see they can't talk about it, they can't 115 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,960 Speaker 1: see the other person's perspective, they're not willing to change. 116 00:07:24,480 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: That is where we have the unhealthy pursuer distance of dynamic. 117 00:07:27,960 --> 00:07:30,880 Speaker 1: Nobody is happy, and the thing is is that each 118 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: person is also constantly triggered by the other person because 119 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: there is so much like natural friction leading to this impasse. 120 00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,640 Speaker 1: In this situation where one person wants more and one 121 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:45,760 Speaker 1: person wants less. I think the real issue is like 122 00:07:46,440 --> 00:07:50,840 Speaker 1: who should have to compromise? Like who whose way wins, 123 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: Who has to receive less or more or a different 124 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 1: amount of the behavior that they of they want that 125 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: they want. This source at the Gotman Institute, which is 126 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:05,240 Speaker 1: one of the world's biggest research labs on love and dating, 127 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: and this person basically says that this dynamic is one 128 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:12,760 Speaker 1: of the main reasons that couples fall out of love. 129 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,280 Speaker 1: They researched thousands of couples on this pursuer distancer dynamic, 130 00:08:20,080 --> 00:08:22,760 Speaker 1: and they discovered that when people get stuck in this dynamic, 131 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,800 Speaker 1: whether they are I don't know, nineteen twenty seven, forty nine, 132 00:08:28,960 --> 00:08:31,880 Speaker 1: whatever it is, they have more than an eighty percent 133 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:35,960 Speaker 1: chance of breaking up or divorcing in the next four 134 00:08:36,000 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 1: to five years. Those aren't good odds. So we really 135 00:08:41,240 --> 00:08:43,640 Speaker 1: do need to understand, like what's actually going on below 136 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,079 Speaker 1: the surface, what's happening in each person's mind. Let's actually 137 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:50,600 Speaker 1: start with the distancer and this dynamic. There is this 138 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,280 Speaker 1: wonderful man whose name is Augustus Napier I think that's 139 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: how you pronounce it, and he is a pioneer in 140 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 1: the field of family therapy. He's worked with hundreds of 141 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:02,560 Speaker 1: couples on this and in his research, he observed that 142 00:09:02,800 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: when someone engages in strong distancing behavior, what they are 143 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 1: really motivated by is fear. Fear of being engulfed in 144 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:13,200 Speaker 1: a relationship, fear of losing a sense of self, and 145 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: a big part of that is social conditioning, this idea 146 00:09:17,640 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: that they don't need anyone. You know, this applies to 147 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:26,120 Speaker 1: all genders, but sometimes with men as well. It's because 148 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 1: they're scared of being too reliant. They've been taught that 149 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 1: they shouldn't be that way. In general, it's this fear 150 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: of being so attached that if the other person was 151 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: to leave, if the other person was to disappear, what 152 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,640 Speaker 1: would they do? Who would they be without that person. 153 00:09:40,840 --> 00:09:44,040 Speaker 1: That's a strong reason why the distancer is the way 154 00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: they is. You can also just see how much of 155 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:52,720 Speaker 1: this comes down to past experience, Yes in childhood with parents, 156 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,200 Speaker 1: as somebody who wanted unconditional love from a parent, from 157 00:09:56,240 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: a caregiver and realizing that wasn't on offer, that you 158 00:10:00,520 --> 00:10:03,680 Speaker 1: could only ever rely on yourself, but also from early 159 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: romantic relationships, even friendships where at some stage the distance 160 00:10:09,040 --> 00:10:12,959 Speaker 1: has thought this person is amazing, this person is the one. 161 00:10:13,480 --> 00:10:17,240 Speaker 1: I'll give them everything, I'll show them how invested I am, 162 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:21,400 Speaker 1: and it didn't end well. They left, they found a 163 00:10:21,440 --> 00:10:23,920 Speaker 1: new best friend, they didn't love them back in the 164 00:10:23,920 --> 00:10:29,160 Speaker 1: same way. And our minds, our bodies hold on to that, 165 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: They store it in a very deep and dark place, 166 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,840 Speaker 1: and they then change our body. Our mind then changes 167 00:10:38,880 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: all of our future behaviors to avoid that ever happening 168 00:10:41,720 --> 00:10:45,520 Speaker 1: again at all costs. We don't want to live through 169 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:48,160 Speaker 1: that hurt. We don't want to be disappointed in somebody 170 00:10:48,160 --> 00:10:51,600 Speaker 1: else again. And the best way to ensure that is 171 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:54,800 Speaker 1: to just hold everyone at arm's length. Is just to 172 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:57,840 Speaker 1: make sure that there is always something just for you, 173 00:10:58,679 --> 00:11:02,760 Speaker 1: something they don't know about, a past, a memory, a hobby, 174 00:11:02,800 --> 00:11:08,520 Speaker 1: a friendship that you can escape into should you feel overwhelmed, 175 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: should things be going pear shaped. To them, it's safety, 176 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,600 Speaker 1: its insurance. But to the pursuer, that looks like secrets, 177 00:11:16,640 --> 00:11:19,440 Speaker 1: it looks like distance, It looks like an unwillingness to 178 00:11:19,480 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: try and open up. It may also come down to 179 00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: simply how they learned to self regulate. I think I 180 00:11:26,320 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 1: just mentioned it, but you know, a big part of 181 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,240 Speaker 1: being a distancer as personal history is that they obviously 182 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:34,079 Speaker 1: learned that they needed to take care of their own 183 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,320 Speaker 1: emotions and their own problems. There is a great deal 184 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:42,079 Speaker 1: of overlap here with hyperindependence and emotional avoidance and only 185 00:11:42,120 --> 00:11:45,840 Speaker 1: needing to rely on themselves. And this isn't always because 186 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,120 Speaker 1: their parents or their family were neglectful or something went wrong. 187 00:11:50,600 --> 00:11:53,440 Speaker 1: It's simply that at some stage in their life they've 188 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:58,880 Speaker 1: encountered stress, they've encountered something that was very heavy, maybe 189 00:11:58,880 --> 00:12:01,160 Speaker 1: not traumatic, just very heavy, and they realized that if 190 00:12:01,200 --> 00:12:03,679 Speaker 1: they could just deal with it themselves, maybe that was 191 00:12:03,720 --> 00:12:07,200 Speaker 1: more effective. They didn't need to be let down. Maybe 192 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,520 Speaker 1: there wasn't somebody there available to help them. They didn't 193 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 1: want to be a burden, especially I think with guys, right, 194 00:12:13,320 --> 00:12:16,520 Speaker 1: big emotions. Maybe they did have a chance to express 195 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: them once and it wasn't taken well. So now it's 196 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:24,040 Speaker 1: that idea that approaches off the table. Essentially, what they 197 00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:28,960 Speaker 1: realized was that when something bad happens, if they go 198 00:12:29,080 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 1: away and if they self isolate and if they rationalize 199 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 1: a problem enough, it will be solved and they won't 200 00:12:35,600 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: have to rely on somebody else's assistance, and maybe they 201 00:12:38,360 --> 00:12:42,560 Speaker 1: won't have to be burdened by somebody else's emotional problems 202 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 1: at times as well. You know, it just feels a 203 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,080 Speaker 1: lot more freer that they just have themselves. So that 204 00:12:48,200 --> 00:12:52,520 Speaker 1: is the emotional blueprint they follow. This is the wound 205 00:12:52,559 --> 00:12:56,560 Speaker 1: they're entering with, and the pursuer is entering with what 206 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: seems like a very different wound but is actually probably 207 00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:04,840 Speaker 1: the same one. That same researcher Napier here observed in 208 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: similar research that when looking at pursuing behavior, this individual 209 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: is often motivated by a fear of rejection, a fear 210 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:19,320 Speaker 1: of being left alone, so they seek frequent, intense connection 211 00:13:20,040 --> 00:13:24,000 Speaker 1: to soothe that fear. For them, they maybe actually went 212 00:13:24,080 --> 00:13:28,640 Speaker 1: through some of the very same experiences as the distancer 213 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,959 Speaker 1: of being left, of being hurt, of feeling unseen, but 214 00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: their reaction to it has been to go deeper, to 215 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: not leave any gap between them and the other person 216 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: for distance to occur. Part of pursuing behavior is emotional monitoring, 217 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:50,120 Speaker 1: right constantly being like, hey, are you okay? Are you 218 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:52,680 Speaker 1: mad at me? Can we talk about that? Like what's 219 00:13:52,720 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 1: going on? Wanting to keep tabs on how a relationship 220 00:13:55,080 --> 00:13:57,840 Speaker 1: is going. That's probably very healthy, but then sometimes it 221 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:02,280 Speaker 1: getting to a point of like constant reassurant seeking, constantly 222 00:14:03,000 --> 00:14:05,920 Speaker 1: needing to know every second of the other person's emotions 223 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,640 Speaker 1: so that there is no opportunity to be blindsided. How 224 00:14:09,640 --> 00:14:11,959 Speaker 1: do you prevent yourself from being blindsided from being left 225 00:14:12,520 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: is making sure that every single emotion is visible at 226 00:14:14,960 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: every single time, every single issue that could come up, 227 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 1: but you were aware of it one hundred kilometers down 228 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: the road. That's why a big part of pursuer's behavior 229 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: is yes, doing the emotional labor of the relationship, doing 230 00:14:29,080 --> 00:14:34,280 Speaker 1: the relationship maintenance, bringing up problems because they want a 231 00:14:34,280 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 1: future with this person, but also because maybe a part 232 00:14:36,360 --> 00:14:38,160 Speaker 1: of them is like this way, I kind of get 233 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: insided into if something's gonna blow up in my face, 234 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: and that can sometimes develop into yeah again, a compulsion 235 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,240 Speaker 1: or a very intense behavior for the distancer, not an 236 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:55,320 Speaker 1: intense behavior on itself, but an intense behavior for the 237 00:14:55,360 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: distancer of like, why are you always in my business? 238 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: Why do you always want so much from me? And 239 00:15:01,080 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: it's not that this person or any person in this 240 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: situation is broken or has done anything wrong. It's just 241 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: how they are responding to the prospect of being hurt 242 00:15:11,720 --> 00:15:15,480 Speaker 1: and to the prospect of social pain. Something you may 243 00:15:15,520 --> 00:15:18,440 Speaker 1: be asking, if the wound does maybe similar, what makes 244 00:15:18,480 --> 00:15:20,760 Speaker 1: one person go one way and somebody go the other. 245 00:15:21,160 --> 00:15:25,280 Speaker 1: What makes somebody a distancer and somebody makes somebody a pursuer? Again, Yeah, 246 00:15:25,320 --> 00:15:27,360 Speaker 1: A bit of it comes down to past experiences, A 247 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: bit of it comes down to socialization. I feel like 248 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:32,440 Speaker 1: we could say a lot more men are probably going 249 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: to be distances than women. Not that it's an exclusive thing, 250 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: but majorly it's nervous system regulation. Yet again, from a 251 00:15:40,080 --> 00:15:45,479 Speaker 1: regulation standpoint, these patterns often map onto different stress responses. 252 00:15:46,040 --> 00:15:50,960 Speaker 1: Distances often lean towards a deactivating strategy, so when stress rises, 253 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: their nervous system says like reduce intensity, pull back, self, 254 00:15:56,000 --> 00:15:59,840 Speaker 1: soothe alone, and pursuers lean towards what we call a 255 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:05,120 Speaker 1: hyper activating strategy. So when stress rises, their system says, 256 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,680 Speaker 1: get your hands dirty, increase proximity, seek reassurance. Problem solve here, 257 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: close the distance gap between you and the other person. Again, 258 00:16:15,800 --> 00:16:18,280 Speaker 1: both people are trying to manage the same underlying fear. 259 00:16:18,640 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 1: I don't want to feel that original wound again. I 260 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: don't want to be hurt again. They're just doing it 261 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:25,840 Speaker 1: in a different way that when these two people find 262 00:16:25,880 --> 00:16:28,560 Speaker 1: each other actually makes it worse for both people. There 263 00:16:28,640 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: is this famous idea in like Carl Jung's work of 264 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: like the Container and the Contained, and essentially what he 265 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 1: says is that when you look at anybody, we're all 266 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:42,440 Speaker 1: going to lean slightly towards one of these two styles 267 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,120 Speaker 1: or systems. Are you going to be the container or 268 00:16:46,120 --> 00:16:50,120 Speaker 1: the distancer who finds emotional security within the self, or 269 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:54,200 Speaker 1: the contained the pursuer who finds security in the relationship. 270 00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 1: And I think with this we can more clearly see 271 00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: the dance that's going on here. One step in, one 272 00:16:59,440 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: step back. Actually both people are always moving kind of 273 00:17:02,480 --> 00:17:08,320 Speaker 1: in synchronicity, just in opposite directions, never touching, never close 274 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: enough for one person, too close for the other. So 275 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: the question we may all be asking at this point, 276 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,440 Speaker 1: I know I've certainly asked this is why do people 277 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: stay and why do these two kinds of people find 278 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:25,199 Speaker 1: each other so often? If from our point of view 279 00:17:25,240 --> 00:17:28,000 Speaker 1: it looks like they just shouldn't work out, Why is 280 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:32,760 Speaker 1: this relationship dynamic so common? Well, that is what we 281 00:17:32,800 --> 00:17:40,160 Speaker 1: are going to reveal after this short break. Stay with us. 282 00:17:41,840 --> 00:17:45,240 Speaker 1: The key thing to know neither person in this relationship 283 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: is wrong. Nobody is the problem, nobody is the bad guy. 284 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,119 Speaker 1: I think distances get a bad rap as like the 285 00:17:52,240 --> 00:17:55,560 Speaker 1: damaged one, but that's not true. Both people have wounds 286 00:17:55,760 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: the same way that we all have. We all have 287 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:01,560 Speaker 1: baggage that we bring into a relationship and we throw all 288 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 1: over the floor and we have to figure out which 289 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:06,720 Speaker 1: items are ours and which items are the other person's. 290 00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,879 Speaker 1: The thing is, if a distancer dated another distancer, it 291 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:13,160 Speaker 1: would probably be okay, and if a pursuer dated another pursuer, 292 00:18:14,040 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: it would probably be smooth sailing. It's not to say 293 00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,439 Speaker 1: those relationships aren't going to have issues, but it's not 294 00:18:18,480 --> 00:18:22,119 Speaker 1: the individuals that are the problem. It's it's the friction 295 00:18:22,200 --> 00:18:25,919 Speaker 1: that has caused distances. And pursuers find each other a 296 00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:30,959 Speaker 1: lot because of the challenge the other person presents, but 297 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:34,720 Speaker 1: also because of this desire to kind of fit into 298 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: each other's lives. They kind of both want a little 299 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: bit of what the other person has. The ability to 300 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,240 Speaker 1: get truly close to somebody for the distancer, and the 301 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 1: ability to be a little bit more mysterious and elusive 302 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:50,080 Speaker 1: for the pursuer. It's intoxicating. It's like this Yin and 303 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: yang situation where they both are kind of seeking something 304 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,399 Speaker 1: that they're not. The other thing is that at different 305 00:18:56,440 --> 00:19:00,879 Speaker 1: times during the pursuit distance cycle, each person is briefly 306 00:19:00,880 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: going to get what they want, and that is the 307 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:07,440 Speaker 1: intoxicating thing. At some stage right in this whole cycle, 308 00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:11,680 Speaker 1: the pursuer is gonna get really upset and they're gonna 309 00:19:11,680 --> 00:19:14,280 Speaker 1: pull all the way back and they're gonna revert to 310 00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: the silent treatment. They're gonna use tools they haven't thought 311 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 1: to use yet. They're gonna be exhausted, they're gonna be like, fine, 312 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,840 Speaker 1: i'm gonna go. I'm gonna give you all the distance. 313 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,800 Speaker 1: And in doing this they actually give the distancer exactly 314 00:19:27,880 --> 00:19:31,320 Speaker 1: what they want, and the distancer finally feels calm enough, 315 00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: regulated enough, able to process things enough, so they come 316 00:19:34,800 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 1: back and ironically, now the pursuer gets what they want. 317 00:19:39,480 --> 00:19:41,840 Speaker 1: It's like, huh, finally this person is here again. The 318 00:19:41,880 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: intimacy is back, the chance to repair and heal is here. 319 00:19:45,640 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: And the thing is is that this looks like forward movement, 320 00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:51,399 Speaker 1: it looks like healing. It looks like you've discovered the 321 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 1: secret to getting the distancer closer, and the distancer discovered 322 00:19:55,000 --> 00:19:57,080 Speaker 1: the secret to getting the pursuer to move further away. 323 00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:00,359 Speaker 1: It is literally just the same desperate pattern in a 324 00:20:00,400 --> 00:20:05,719 Speaker 1: new form. When this happens very briefly, both people switch 325 00:20:05,800 --> 00:20:10,400 Speaker 1: roles right for a short period of time. This makes 326 00:20:10,440 --> 00:20:13,880 Speaker 1: self identification as the pursuer or distancer really a lot 327 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,600 Speaker 1: harder and very confusing, because if both people are at 328 00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:21,120 Speaker 1: sometimes very small amounts of times playing the other role, 329 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:27,800 Speaker 1: surely where surely it's not an issue, but the opposite 330 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:31,399 Speaker 1: role doesn't come naturally. Again, this is temporary, This is 331 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:35,240 Speaker 1: a small switch. This is a symptom of the cycle continuing. 332 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,800 Speaker 1: Both people get so worked up that they briefly become 333 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: the other person. So what is the long term damage 334 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:47,240 Speaker 1: happening here? And how do these relationships often end? Therapists 335 00:20:47,440 --> 00:20:50,400 Speaker 1: talk about this point in a relationship like this where 336 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,879 Speaker 1: the person who has always been the emotional seeker, the 337 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,960 Speaker 1: one who wants closeness, who spurs on those deep conversations, 338 00:20:58,600 --> 00:21:02,000 Speaker 1: they just become silent. They become what we call a 339 00:21:02,040 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: burnt out pursuer. They basically just stop reacting altogether. Again, 340 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,280 Speaker 1: as we were describing this situation of just like my 341 00:21:10,320 --> 00:21:11,800 Speaker 1: hands are up in the air, I don't know what 342 00:21:11,880 --> 00:21:14,959 Speaker 1: to do. I don't know how to get you closer 343 00:21:14,960 --> 00:21:19,040 Speaker 1: to me, So I'm just going to give up and yeah, 344 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:21,960 Speaker 1: therapist talk about this moment and they say like, this 345 00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: is when I get scared. This is when it looks 346 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 1: like the relationship is probably going to break apart for good. 347 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,040 Speaker 1: And the thing is is that it may look like 348 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: it comes all at once, But if you are the pursuer, 349 00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: you've probably been running this race for a long time. 350 00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:37,959 Speaker 1: There have been so many rounds of the same cycle 351 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 1: of pulling back them stepping forward. There's a temporary closeness, 352 00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: it all looks great, optimistic, and then things slowly return 353 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:46,280 Speaker 1: to the way they are. You have probably had so 354 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: many times of being like, all I want is for 355 00:21:49,080 --> 00:21:50,760 Speaker 1: you to say that you love me. All I want 356 00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:52,840 Speaker 1: is for you to say is to work on a 357 00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: problem with me. All I want is for you to 358 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,399 Speaker 1: remember the small things, to want to fix things in 359 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,560 Speaker 1: our relationship. And the emotional load just becomes too heavy, 360 00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,760 Speaker 1: and again, when it gets to this point, there is 361 00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,240 Speaker 1: no coming back. This other person has sacrificed their needs 362 00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 1: for too long. The distancer might also have a moment 363 00:22:09,840 --> 00:22:13,600 Speaker 1: like this where they just feel so tired, so unnatural 364 00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:15,560 Speaker 1: by trying to change for this other person that they 365 00:22:15,600 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: just jump ship. They panic. They don't just become the distance, 366 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:21,040 Speaker 1: that they become the flea. They just can't do it anymore. 367 00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:25,200 Speaker 1: The mismatch becomes too evident, and people are left hurt. 368 00:22:25,600 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: People are left frustrated and sad, and that they gave 369 00:22:28,720 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 1: so many months or years trying to compromise. And you 370 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: might look at that and think, what did they expect. 371 00:22:36,680 --> 00:22:38,960 Speaker 1: And the thing is, though, this isn't the only outcome. 372 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:41,439 Speaker 1: You might think this is always going to be how 373 00:22:41,520 --> 00:22:44,879 Speaker 1: pursue a distance and relationships, how the course goes, But 374 00:22:45,600 --> 00:22:48,400 Speaker 1: there is actually things that people can do to break 375 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: out of this. That's the good news in this this 376 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: is the worst case scenario, but our brain's malleable then 377 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: neuroplastic even into old age. Given the right conditions, if 378 00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:01,120 Speaker 1: you were in this situation right now, you can adapt 379 00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,400 Speaker 1: your brain to form new synaptic connections, to replace old 380 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:08,320 Speaker 1: relationship patterns with healthy ones, to find a new way 381 00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:13,120 Speaker 1: of bonding and caring and being with somebody else if 382 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 1: you want to change. Even if you recognize yourself in 383 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: what we are speaking about today, there's nothing to say 384 00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:25,440 Speaker 1: that it is all doom and gloom, because the core 385 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: thing here is if you can relate, you are self aware, 386 00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:32,640 Speaker 1: you can see the cycle taking place, and if your 387 00:23:32,680 --> 00:23:35,280 Speaker 1: partner can also see the cycle taking place as well, 388 00:23:35,320 --> 00:23:38,760 Speaker 1: your chances are so much better. That self awareness is 389 00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 1: like the most critical thing I think I've learned from 390 00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:44,679 Speaker 1: so many years of just reading the research. But it 391 00:23:44,720 --> 00:23:46,920 Speaker 1: does take a lot of compromise from both people to 392 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:49,879 Speaker 1: mend and to bring Both people have to want to 393 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 1: be at the table, and I think the hard thing 394 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 1: is that sometimes the distancer doesn't want to be. They 395 00:23:54,119 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: want things to be okay between each other, but the 396 00:23:58,080 --> 00:24:00,400 Speaker 1: emotional debt of having to try is just too much 397 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: for them. So if you do want to work through this, 398 00:24:03,359 --> 00:24:06,000 Speaker 1: you really just have to start with self compassion. If 399 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:10,480 Speaker 1: you're trapped in this cycle, being angry yourself, being frustrated, 400 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,520 Speaker 1: being like I what do I expect? Like this is 401 00:24:13,560 --> 00:24:16,000 Speaker 1: never going to work out, isn't going to help you. 402 00:24:16,000 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: You need to allow yourself space to feel composed, to 403 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: feel clear about what you want, and to be able 404 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,280 Speaker 1: to regulate your nervous system. Again, not in the way 405 00:24:26,320 --> 00:24:29,280 Speaker 1: that you have been doing, which is to either seek 406 00:24:29,320 --> 00:24:32,240 Speaker 1: an artificial level of closeness or seek an artificial level 407 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:35,720 Speaker 1: of distance. Perhaps you are in the cycle because of 408 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: the reasons that we've spoken about because of psychological childhood wounds. 409 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,760 Speaker 1: Acknowledge this, give yourself grace, and really ask yourself, you know, 410 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 1: if I had a choice, I probably wouldn't choose this. 411 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 1: That means that it's probably not my fault. That doesn't 412 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: give you an excuse to then treat somebody in a 413 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: way that doesn't feel kind or to be like or 414 00:24:56,320 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: to keep hurting yourself even but it may also and 415 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:05,240 Speaker 1: definitely will, just give you some kindness and provide an 416 00:25:05,240 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: explanation for why you are the way you are instead 417 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: of just because I'm a bad person or because I 418 00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:14,560 Speaker 1: don't deserve love. Secondly, you need to have that compassion 419 00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: for the other person. You need to realize that the 420 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: same way you have wounds, they have wounds as well. 421 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:23,080 Speaker 1: It's just that they are acting out their own subconscious 422 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: unconscious process is in a different way. They are looking 423 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: for the intimacy that they lack in a different way, 424 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,600 Speaker 1: just different to you. You are both trying to feel 425 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,879 Speaker 1: whole again through this relationship and to feel loved, and 426 00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,200 Speaker 1: equally you're hurting each other, but that's not the way 427 00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 1: it has to be. Basically, like, you need to step 428 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 1: into their shoes and be like, essentially, why would I 429 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,680 Speaker 1: be the way that I am? That's what positions here? 430 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:54,320 Speaker 1: Why would I continue a cycle like this? Why would 431 00:25:54,320 --> 00:25:57,520 Speaker 1: I always put distance? Why would I always need more closeness? 432 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 1: Can you have empathy for the other person's position? If 433 00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:05,760 Speaker 1: you can, I think that's like amazing progress. I think 434 00:26:05,800 --> 00:26:09,000 Speaker 1: then each person needs to integrate the part they're struggling with, 435 00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,959 Speaker 1: and they need to be committed to change. Here's the hurdle, 436 00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:17,360 Speaker 1: here's the deal breaker, especially if you are a pursuer 437 00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: right now, listen up. If you're the only one putting 438 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:23,880 Speaker 1: in effort here, if they just keep making excuses, this 439 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,919 Speaker 1: isn't about being a pursuer, This isn't about being a distancer. 440 00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:31,000 Speaker 1: This is about respect, and at this point it's about 441 00:26:31,000 --> 00:26:34,800 Speaker 1: whether or not they care about you. Obviously, labeling our 442 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,760 Speaker 1: behavior matters, but when it becomes a shield of like, well, 443 00:26:37,800 --> 00:26:39,440 Speaker 1: you know, I just didn't reply to your message for 444 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: three days because I'm a distancer. I forgot your birthday 445 00:26:43,119 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 1: because I'm a distancer, or alternatively like no, I went 446 00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:50,439 Speaker 1: through your phone because I'm a pursuer. That's not about labels. 447 00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:54,160 Speaker 1: It's about respect, and it's not respect and it's not healthy. 448 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,520 Speaker 1: And it's not about empathy for the other person or 449 00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,919 Speaker 1: for ourselves. It's an excuse be honest with yourself and 450 00:27:01,960 --> 00:27:05,960 Speaker 1: with the other person. And altogether, are you guys capable 451 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,399 Speaker 1: of change? Is this person you are with capable of 452 00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:11,560 Speaker 1: change and they've given any evidence for it? And are 453 00:27:11,600 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 1: they showing you movement that isn't just the same cycle 454 00:27:16,960 --> 00:27:20,800 Speaker 1: or are they showing shortcuts? For the anxious person, you 455 00:27:20,880 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: need to genuinely learn to self soothe. You need to 456 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,160 Speaker 1: learn that you are actually super capable of taking a beat, 457 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:32,119 Speaker 1: of taking care of yourself, of reassurance, of seeking safety 458 00:27:32,320 --> 00:27:38,200 Speaker 1: inside of you, and for the avoidant. I think there 459 00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: needs to be this like test period, this period of 460 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:47,520 Speaker 1: like I'm just going to see how what happens when 461 00:27:47,560 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: I take the risk and I and I talk about 462 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: my problems. I've never done it before or it's ended 463 00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:55,520 Speaker 1: badly before. If I'm going to lose this person, what 464 00:27:55,560 --> 00:27:57,640 Speaker 1: else do I have to risk? I'm going to try. 465 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,439 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell them I had a terrible day work. 466 00:28:01,080 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: I'm going to tell them that I'm struggling mentally. I'm 467 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,720 Speaker 1: just going to test how it would feel to be 468 00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,720 Speaker 1: open about that and I'm going to trust as much 469 00:28:09,760 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: as I can in my whole body. I'm going to 470 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,439 Speaker 1: trust that this person isn't going to let me down, 471 00:28:13,600 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: and it's going to hold me emotionally in a way 472 00:28:16,359 --> 00:28:18,840 Speaker 1: that I probably have always wanted to be held. Both 473 00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:22,239 Speaker 1: of you then need to do the hardest thing in 474 00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:25,840 Speaker 1: situations like this, which is realize that you could get hurt. 475 00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 1: That is a possibility here throughout this whole thing. Actually, 476 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,919 Speaker 1: this is the most important thing to realize. I think, 477 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: especially in your twenties. You know, sometimes the best relationships 478 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: are those that could crush you the deepest because you 479 00:28:37,840 --> 00:28:40,160 Speaker 1: care about them so much. You know that feeling when 480 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: you look at somebody and you're like, I really hope 481 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,239 Speaker 1: you don't hurt me, but this could really hurt me. Like, 482 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:47,840 Speaker 1: I think, you kind of owe it to yourself to 483 00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 1: bed on that relationship because even if it doesn't work out, 484 00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:54,040 Speaker 1: at least you felt how deeply you could go. Even 485 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: if people make mistakes, at least you experience true repair. 486 00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 1: At least you could kind of see how much love 487 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,320 Speaker 1: you try really have to give. I can totally understand 488 00:29:03,440 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: if you don't agree with this, but I think so 489 00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:08,320 Speaker 1: often we use playing it safe as an excuse to 490 00:29:08,360 --> 00:29:13,560 Speaker 1: actually be avoidant. You could get hurt here. No amount 491 00:29:13,600 --> 00:29:17,680 Speaker 1: of protective mechanisms or behaviors, no amount of withdrawing or 492 00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: moving closer, is going to stop somebody from breaking your 493 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 1: heart if the relationship wasn't going to work in the 494 00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: first place. But continuing to adopt those behaviors thinking they're 495 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:30,760 Speaker 1: going to protect you, thinking they're going to save you, 496 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,440 Speaker 1: is most certainly going to break your heart more because 497 00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:35,720 Speaker 1: it's going to rule out all of these people who 498 00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: could have given you so so many amazing experiences and 499 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 1: could have given you so much So when you look 500 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: at the other person across from you and you acknowledge 501 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,920 Speaker 1: this could really hurt me, is this the person that 502 00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: you'd be willing to do that for. It's just like 503 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,160 Speaker 1: the question. You have to get to the point of 504 00:29:52,200 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: answering at the end of the day, and then you 505 00:29:54,160 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: have to trust that they won't. You have to trust 506 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 1: that if you put in the steps to be different, 507 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 1: they will also do that. If you give somebody space, 508 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: if you ask somebody to come in further, they are 509 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,080 Speaker 1: going to be committed to it, and the outcome for 510 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:13,720 Speaker 1: both of you is worth it because people do change 511 00:30:13,720 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: out of this, People do find wonderful, healthy marriages and 512 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:23,920 Speaker 1: longtime relationships having come into love and having come into 513 00:30:24,360 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: dating with this dynamic. Okay, we are going to take 514 00:30:28,000 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 1: one final tiny break here before we discuss I think 515 00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:33,480 Speaker 1: the final big question of the day. I don't know 516 00:30:33,480 --> 00:30:35,440 Speaker 1: if you guys are asking this, but it's definitely one 517 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: that me and my friends have spoken about, which is 518 00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: is it worth it in your twenties? Is this kind 519 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,840 Speaker 1: of relationship and the commitment that you need for this 520 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:48,600 Speaker 1: kind of relationship something that you should be doing during 521 00:30:48,640 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: this decade? As I said, a controversial question to finish 522 00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,040 Speaker 1: us off for today, The question I don't actually know 523 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:03,000 Speaker 1: the answer to, but I thought it could stir up 524 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 1: some thoughts. Is this dynamic worth it in your twenties, 525 00:31:06,720 --> 00:31:09,800 Speaker 1: especially maybe in your early twenties. What I kind of 526 00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:12,479 Speaker 1: mean by this question is, and what I mean by 527 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,560 Speaker 1: this dynama, is that when you're in your early twenties, 528 00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,120 Speaker 1: when you're in your twenties, there is this narrative that 529 00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:22,320 Speaker 1: the world is full of opportunities for love. The world 530 00:31:22,400 --> 00:31:25,959 Speaker 1: is wide, the world is open to you. There are 531 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 1: so many fish in the sea. Should you be spending 532 00:31:29,080 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: time in relationships that ask you to change and to 533 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:36,280 Speaker 1: do so much for the other person. Is it worth 534 00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:38,880 Speaker 1: working through this with somebody or should you cut your 535 00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:42,360 Speaker 1: losses and find a distancer, find a pursuer who more 536 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:47,640 Speaker 1: matches your style. What I think is that sometimes we 537 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 1: confuse discomfort in a relationship with pure misalignment. Relationships are 538 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:55,120 Speaker 1: always going to have their problem. Maybe this is just 539 00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: your problem, the pursuer distance. The dynamic is uncomfortable, it 540 00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:02,000 Speaker 1: activates you, It brings up wounds, It exposes your attachment 541 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,880 Speaker 1: system in ways that feel almost embarrassing. It's not embarrassing, 542 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: that's just the way it feels. But discomfort alone isn't 543 00:32:09,760 --> 00:32:13,400 Speaker 1: the reason or a reason to not try. Sometimes discomfort, 544 00:32:13,440 --> 00:32:17,040 Speaker 1: especially in your twenties, is data. Personally, I think this 545 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:21,120 Speaker 1: decade it's not just for collecting experiences, it's also for 546 00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:25,120 Speaker 1: collecting awareness. That is why, even if this relationship with 547 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 1: the distancer, with the pursue it doesn't last, it is 548 00:32:28,240 --> 00:32:31,800 Speaker 1: still worth its weight in lessons. If you notice that 549 00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:36,280 Speaker 1: you consistently choose emotionally unavailable people, that's not random. If 550 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,200 Speaker 1: you notice that you feel bored when somebody is consistent 551 00:32:39,240 --> 00:32:42,280 Speaker 1: and is safe, that's not random. If you panic the 552 00:32:42,280 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: moment somebody gets close or somebody gets a little bit 553 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 1: of space, that is not random. These are patterns that 554 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: the research shows us will be repeated again and again 555 00:32:51,960 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 1: in life in your twenties until consciously examined, because patterns 556 00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,800 Speaker 1: don't dissolve just because the person you're in a relationship 557 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: where changes. What I mean by that is that if 558 00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: you leave every time the pursuer distance, the dynamic gets activated, 559 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: you're probably just going to find yourself in another pursuer distance, 560 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: a dynamic. You may feel temporarily relieved that you got 561 00:33:15,960 --> 00:33:19,280 Speaker 1: out of that situation, but this is your blueprint. You're 562 00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:23,160 Speaker 1: going to find a very similar individual attractive, very very soon. 563 00:33:23,960 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 1: The dance just starts with somebody new. That is what 564 00:33:27,280 --> 00:33:31,560 Speaker 1: so many longitudinal attachment studies have shown us. You know, 565 00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: our internal models for relationships are remarkably stable unless they 566 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:39,520 Speaker 1: are actively worked on. And I'm not saying fixed, I'm 567 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:44,040 Speaker 1: not saying cured, but brought into awareness. So I think 568 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:47,840 Speaker 1: as a pursuer in your twenties, it is worth asking yourself, 569 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,680 Speaker 1: why am I like this? Why is this showing up 570 00:33:51,720 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: in all of my relationships? And is there somebody I 571 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:59,280 Speaker 1: feel safe enough to tackle that with and as a distance. 572 00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,120 Speaker 1: So it's worth our asking why does closeness feel so engulfing? 573 00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,920 Speaker 1: Why does needing to be pursued rather than pursuing feel 574 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,399 Speaker 1: like a connection? Why do I feel attracted when there 575 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:13,600 Speaker 1: is uncertainty and when there is certainty I lose interest? 576 00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:18,360 Speaker 1: Like this is worth exploring whether the person you explore 577 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:22,920 Speaker 1: it with ends up being the one or not. You know, 578 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:25,560 Speaker 1: I know people won't agree with that, but I just 579 00:34:25,600 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: think your twenties are the safest time to confront this 580 00:34:29,640 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: and to really go deep in a relationship like this 581 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:34,640 Speaker 1: if the other person is somebody you really care about, 582 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:38,640 Speaker 1: because the stakes are emotionally high, yes, but logistically lower, 583 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: especially in your early twenties. You might not share children, 584 00:34:41,680 --> 00:34:44,920 Speaker 1: you might not share mortgages, You definitely don't share decades 585 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: and decades of shared history and family. So you have flexibility. 586 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: You have time, You have room to experiment, you have 587 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:55,879 Speaker 1: time to repair. Working through a dynamic with somebody who 588 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,399 Speaker 1: is willing to self reflect is going to be well. 589 00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:01,680 Speaker 1: I think would be transformative. Again, the relationship might not 590 00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: last forever. There is no promise of that. Remember we 591 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 1: made a promise to each other that we have to 592 00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:08,840 Speaker 1: be okay with getting hurt, but because you have the 593 00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 1: opportunity to learn to learn what it's maybe like to 594 00:35:15,160 --> 00:35:19,480 Speaker 1: not always play the same role in a relationship and 595 00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:24,479 Speaker 1: to not always be that same hurt individual who enters 596 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 1: every relationship looking for something that, no matter what, the 597 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: other person cannot give you because you're either looking in 598 00:35:31,200 --> 00:35:34,879 Speaker 1: the wrong places or searching for it in people who 599 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,799 Speaker 1: aren't willing to change. That being said, this is not 600 00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:41,200 Speaker 1: a blanket endorsement to stay in every relationship that triggers you. 601 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,200 Speaker 1: There is a difference between a dynamic that is two 602 00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:47,560 Speaker 1: self aware people trying to grow and a dynamic that 603 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,839 Speaker 1: is one person refusing to take responsibility. Sometimes, let's be real, 604 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,480 Speaker 1: someone isn't a distancer. They just don't like you that much. 605 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: It's a hard pill to swallow, but it's true. And 606 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: trying to label them into wanting to work on their behavior, 607 00:36:05,160 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: trying to be like John, you see, like you're a distancer. 608 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,880 Speaker 1: That's why this isn't working. It's not going to work 609 00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,560 Speaker 1: if they genuinely don't care. Same thing with the pursuer. 610 00:36:15,200 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: Sometimes they're not a pursuer. Sometimes they just genuinely don't 611 00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:22,480 Speaker 1: have boundaries and don't have respect for you. I think 612 00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,160 Speaker 1: through all this discussion, this is definitely where I want 613 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,160 Speaker 1: to leave things, be able to identify what is a pattern, 614 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: what is a wound, and what is just a genuine 615 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:36,000 Speaker 1: lack of interest. If someone is dismissive of your emotional bids, 616 00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: if you never get in what you if you never 617 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: get out what you give, if you never feel comfortable 618 00:36:42,320 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 1: enough to say I want to address this. This isn't working. 619 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,640 Speaker 1: I don't like how this is going. This person isn't it. 620 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: And again, it's not about the role you guys play 621 00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 1: in a relationship. It's not about what dynamic you are 622 00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:00,719 Speaker 1: falling into. It's just because you guys are not right 623 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,600 Speaker 1: for each other. And it's just because this other person 624 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:10,320 Speaker 1: isn't emotionally safe enough to work through a complicated situation 625 00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:14,359 Speaker 1: with you. And love is complicated. Relationships are complicated and hard, 626 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:17,480 Speaker 1: and half of why they are beautiful, I think in 627 00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: our twenties beyond is because somebody else is like, yeah, okay, 628 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,240 Speaker 1: I'm committed to doing that with you, whatever the outcome. 629 00:37:24,840 --> 00:37:27,040 Speaker 1: So if they're not, it's never going to be as 630 00:37:27,080 --> 00:37:29,480 Speaker 1: good as you want it to be. And it's definitely 631 00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: your scientist call it quits. So, with all of that 632 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:36,000 Speaker 1: in mind, a final summary that pursue a distance of 633 00:37:36,080 --> 00:37:40,640 Speaker 1: relationship dynamic unbelievably prevalent, by the way, even over the 634 00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,960 Speaker 1: course of researching this episode. Not that I not that 635 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,800 Speaker 1: I seek all of my examples from my friends and family, 636 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 1: but it's definitely apparent in past relationships of mine and 637 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:54,520 Speaker 1: people that I see around me. Once you start noticing it, 638 00:37:54,520 --> 00:37:58,120 Speaker 1: you cannot stop noticing it. We do all typically fall 639 00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 1: one way, not completely one way, or not to an extreme. 640 00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,880 Speaker 1: But whether we are a pursuer, whether we are a distancer, 641 00:38:06,239 --> 00:38:09,640 Speaker 1: comes down to attachment, comes down to nervous system regulation, 642 00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:12,800 Speaker 1: amongst a bunch of other things. That doesn't mean you 643 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:16,240 Speaker 1: won't find love. It doesn't mean all your relationships are doomed. 644 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:22,080 Speaker 1: With the right person, you will grow, You will you'll 645 00:38:22,360 --> 00:38:24,799 Speaker 1: love each other or find a connection that is so 646 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 1: incredibly deep if the other person is committed to it, 647 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,319 Speaker 1: even if it takes a while. So that is the 648 00:38:30,320 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: message I want to leave on. If you have made 649 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:36,439 Speaker 1: it this far and you are listening on Spotify, let 650 00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: me know are you a distancer or are you a 651 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,960 Speaker 1: pursuer or are you somewhere in the middle, which role 652 00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:47,040 Speaker 1: do you find yourself relating to more, Make sure that 653 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 1: you are following us on Instagram at that Psychology podcast, 654 00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:53,880 Speaker 1: and that you maybe have watched an episode on Netflix 655 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: if you are listening in the US or Canada. We 656 00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,320 Speaker 1: actually recently got a new studio and it is very 657 00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,719 Speaker 1: very cool and vibes, So if you want to check 658 00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:03,879 Speaker 1: that out and see behind the scenes of where I'm 659 00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:06,200 Speaker 1: recording from right now, you can go and watch that 660 00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:08,520 Speaker 1: over there. We also have a sub stack if you 661 00:39:08,560 --> 00:39:12,680 Speaker 1: want to read our transcripts instead of listen to them 662 00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: in podcast form. But until next time, be safe, be kind, 663 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,840 Speaker 1: be gentle to yourself. Thank you for tuning in. We 664 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:21,439 Speaker 1: will talk very very soon.