WEBVTT - #318 Guest Host Lauren Bright Pacheco with Mark Schand 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:03.320 Hey, it's me Jason Plum and I'm Lauren Brai Pacheco. 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:06.120 So for any of my listeners who aren't already familiar 0:00:06.160 --> 0:00:08.840 with you, Lauren is the I'm going to embarrass you now, 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.200 the absolutely brilliant investigative journalist and the host of the 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.960 wildly popular series started with Murder in Oregon my favorite, 0:00:18.120 --> 0:00:21.880 then Murder in Illinois incredible, and coming in January twenty 0:00:21.880 --> 0:00:24.120 twenty three to the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen 0:00:24.200 --> 0:00:26.200 to podcasts, Murder in Miami. 0:00:26.520 --> 0:00:29.760 Well, I am a'm flattered by that, but you know 0:00:29.880 --> 0:00:32.919 you are one of my idols. Really, the work that 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:37.200 you've done in the wrongful Conviction space and judicial reform 0:00:37.280 --> 0:00:41.239 is just phenomenal, and Wrongful Conviction is one of my 0:00:41.280 --> 0:00:44.880 favorite podcasts. And congratulations to you guys for hitting now 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:50.760 the milestone of three hundred episodes. And that I mean, 0:00:50.840 --> 0:00:54.760 the fact that there are three hundred of these cases 0:00:54.880 --> 0:00:58.920 of wrongfully convicted men and women who have suffered needlessly 0:00:58.960 --> 0:01:01.880 in prison for decades is just overwhelming. 0:01:02.400 --> 0:01:05.200 Well, the fact is, three hundred isn't even the beginning 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.039 of the top of the tip of the iceberg. There 0:01:08.080 --> 0:01:12.280 are tens of thousands of wrongfully convicted people. We are 0:01:12.319 --> 0:01:14.080 just telling some of the stories of some of the 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:18.319 ones we know about, and they're outrageous. Everyone blows my mind. 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:22.080 And you know, in order to help spread this word, 0:01:22.560 --> 0:01:25.840 I've asked some of the people I most admire, including 0:01:25.840 --> 0:01:28.480 some who are wrongfully convicted, some of the best attorneys 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:30.280 in the country, crimals, attorneys, and of course some of 0:01:30.360 --> 0:01:33.200 my favorite podcast hosts and journalists, and you, Lauren, were 0:01:33.280 --> 0:01:34.600 at the top of my list. 0:01:35.360 --> 0:01:39.840 I really sincerely appreciate that vote of confidence, but I 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:44.200 have to say I was so appreciative and honored to 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:46.960 get the chance to fill in for you, but to 0:01:47.000 --> 0:01:49.720 also have the opportunity to speak with Mark Shand and 0:01:49.800 --> 0:01:55.440 his attorney. It's an incredibly heartbreaking, moving and infuriating story. 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:58.920 Well, you did a phenomenal job. I'm so excited to 0:01:58.920 --> 0:02:01.600 be able to present this to audience. Please listen to 0:02:01.720 --> 0:02:04.440 this important episode of Wrongful Conviction. 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.760 Back in nineteen eighty six in Springfield, Massachusetts, the After 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:14.680 Five night club was a place where a few shady 0:02:14.760 --> 0:02:17.440 characters liked to hang out. Two of them were the 0:02:17.480 --> 0:02:20.639 Stokes brothers, and on the night in question, they were 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:25.200 outside selling cocaine, but that night, their cocaine deal went bad. 0:02:26.040 --> 0:02:29.200 A couple young guys approached the brothers and their two customers. 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:32.160 One of them lunged for a gold chain and a 0:02:32.240 --> 0:02:35.800 scuffle began. Someone pulled out a gun and started shooting. 0:02:36.280 --> 0:02:39.079 One of the customers, Anthony Cook, was shot in the 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:42.840 shoulder and meet it out alive, but an innocent bystander, 0:02:43.040 --> 0:02:48.040 Victoria Seymour, was killed. Witnesses to the shooting reported seeing 0:02:48.040 --> 0:02:52.160 a blue van with Connecticut plates, so during their investigation, 0:02:52.280 --> 0:02:55.919 the Springfield cops reached out to the police in Hartford, Connecticut, 0:02:56.120 --> 0:03:01.400 looking for some leads. In a completely unprofessional investigation, the 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.240 Hartford police landed on Mark Shand, a teenager who had 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:09.200 recently moved into the city. On November twentieth, nineteen eighty seven, 0:03:09.760 --> 0:03:13.040 he was convicted of murder and sentenced to natural life 0:03:13.040 --> 0:03:19.640 in prison without the possibility of parole. This is wrongful conviction. 0:03:29.880 --> 0:03:33.560 I'm Lauren Brai Pacheco. I'm a broadcast journalist and a podcaster. 0:03:34.320 --> 0:03:36.480 You may have listened to my shows Murder in Oregon 0:03:36.640 --> 0:03:39.920 and Murder in Illinois, Mark and John. I am so 0:03:40.040 --> 0:03:42.960 excited to be sitting in this chair guest hosting for Jason, 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.800 because I have to tell you. In my career, I've 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.440 covered wrongful convictions and stories of corruptions. But this is 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.920 such an insane story that I found myself screaming up 0:03:52.920 --> 0:03:55.360 my monitor while I was doing research for it. It's 0:03:55.840 --> 0:04:00.160 just unbelievable. So thank you both for speaking with me. 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.040 I'd love you both to introduce yourselves. Mark, why don't 0:04:04.080 --> 0:04:04.720 you start. 0:04:04.840 --> 0:04:07.680 Well, my name is Mark Shan. I am originally from 0:04:07.720 --> 0:04:10.160 I was born in Queen's, New York, raised in Queens. 0:04:10.560 --> 0:04:14.280 My father and my mom came in from Panama when 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:17.039 they were pretty young, and you know, I was basically 0:04:17.160 --> 0:04:21.520 raised in New York. My dad relocated to Hartford, Connecticut 0:04:21.560 --> 0:04:24.440 area when I was very young. He was a small 0:04:24.480 --> 0:04:27.920 business owner. He had several small businesses. Kind of make 0:04:27.960 --> 0:04:29.800 a long story, stort and get to the meat of it. 0:04:29.960 --> 0:04:32.400 I came up to help him with some of his 0:04:32.520 --> 0:04:36.640 small businesses. I was subsequently arrested, as you know, taken 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:40.960 to Massachusetts. I was put on trial for murder. I 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:45.479 had absolutely no involvement in. I was found guilty, sentenced 0:04:45.480 --> 0:04:49.880 to natural life without the eligibility of parole, and as 0:04:49.920 --> 0:04:52.719 you also know, I started twenty seven years in prison 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:54.440 for a crime I didn't commit. 0:04:54.839 --> 0:04:58.360 And John, you were instrumental in helping write this wrong. 0:04:58.440 --> 0:05:02.440 Well, yes, I am my partner Linda Thompson, and Linda 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:07.080 is actually the one who first became involved in Mark's case. 0:05:07.520 --> 0:05:09.839 Linda and I are partners in a small firm of 0:05:09.880 --> 0:05:14.120 Thompson and Thompson in Springfield, mass I've been practicing law 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:18.240 since nineteen seventy four, Linda since nineteen seventy six, so 0:05:18.320 --> 0:05:22.719 we're veterans. Linda became involved in Mark's trial when Mark's 0:05:22.760 --> 0:05:27.840 trial lawyer consulted her about whether Mark should testify in 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:32.480 his own defense, and so we were not directly involved 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:36.440 in the trial, but we were present when the verdict 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:41.080 was returned, and very shortly after that we took over 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.719 the case to do appeals and motions for a new trial. 0:05:46.360 --> 0:05:50.120 So we worked on this case for almost as long 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:54.919 as Mark was in prison, about twenty six twenty seven years. 0:05:55.360 --> 0:05:59.200 Which is very unusual with the wrongful conviction case that 0:05:59.320 --> 0:06:02.680 you were involved from the beginning, Mark, could you tell 0:06:02.760 --> 0:06:04.880 us a little bit more about your life in Hertford 0:06:05.160 --> 0:06:06.640 before all of this began. 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.279 When I came up here, I was just turned eighteen 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:11.880 before this happened. You know, I kind of lived a 0:06:11.880 --> 0:06:15.560 normal teenage life. You know, I wasn't the best kid, 0:06:15.600 --> 0:06:16.760 you know. I mean I got into a little bit 0:06:16.800 --> 0:06:18.760 of trouble stuff like that, not that major at all. 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:22.440 I think I was eighteen going on nineteen when I 0:06:22.440 --> 0:06:25.280 was arrested. But before my arrest, you know, I would 0:06:25.279 --> 0:06:27.440 help my dad out with his small business. I would 0:06:27.440 --> 0:06:29.800 go back and forth to New York. And you know 0:06:30.400 --> 0:06:32.600 it was kind of short, you know, my life before 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:36.120 this happened. In regards to me relocating in Connecticut, I 0:06:36.160 --> 0:06:37.839 was not here long before I was arrested. 0:06:38.200 --> 0:06:41.159 But right before you were arrested, you actually met the 0:06:41.160 --> 0:06:45.560 woman who became the love of your life and the 0:06:45.560 --> 0:06:49.440 mother of your third son. Yes, Quentin, John, if you 0:06:49.480 --> 0:06:52.600 could take me now, you were living in Hartford, Mark, 0:06:52.680 --> 0:06:57.040 but the crime that you were convicted of committing actually 0:06:57.080 --> 0:07:00.920 occurred in Springfield, Massachusetts, which is about twenty seven twenty 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:05.800 eight miles away. You're from Springfield, John, correct, If you 0:07:05.839 --> 0:07:09.320 could just kind of paint a picture of Springfield in 0:07:09.440 --> 0:07:13.760 nineteen eighty six for me, particularly around the club where 0:07:14.200 --> 0:07:17.520 the crime that Mark was convicted of committing occurred. 0:07:17.800 --> 0:07:23.600 Well, Springfield at that time was a fairly segregated city 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:27.440 and at the time, in the mid eighties, there was 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:33.160 a lot of drug trafficking and use, particularly cocaine. There 0:07:33.240 --> 0:07:37.320 were quite a few homicides compared to the size of 0:07:37.360 --> 0:07:42.360 the city, and the police were typical of the police 0:07:42.800 --> 0:07:46.720 around this area at that time. That is, most of 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:50.560 the police training was on the job training. There were 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:54.760 a lot of problems with the in the criminal justice system, 0:07:55.320 --> 0:07:59.400 with the process of discovery, so there was a constant 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:03.720 struggle on the defense side trying to get information and 0:08:03.800 --> 0:08:06.880 evidence that would help the defendant in court. 0:08:07.560 --> 0:08:10.000 It's safe to say that it wasn't exactly a level 0:08:10.000 --> 0:08:13.960 playing field, and that is something, particularly with the exculpatory 0:08:14.000 --> 0:08:17.760 evidence that very much plays into Mark's case. But let's 0:08:17.880 --> 0:08:20.560 actually go to the night of the crime. So shortly 0:08:20.600 --> 0:08:25.480 after eleven PM on September second, nineteen eighty six in Springfield, Massachusetts, 0:08:26.000 --> 0:08:28.560 there is a drug deal that goes bad outside the 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:33.280 After five lounge and there's four gentlemen involved, Charles heavy Stokes, 0:08:33.400 --> 0:08:35.760 his brother David, and they're engaged in a drug deal 0:08:35.800 --> 0:08:40.040 with two other guys, Anthony Cook and Michael Houston, and 0:08:40.200 --> 0:08:44.360 that's when things go wrong. Apparently they're approached by several 0:08:44.440 --> 0:08:47.160 unidentified young men who basically ask if they can see 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:50.440 what's going on, and in that scuffle, one of them 0:08:50.600 --> 0:08:53.959 grabs towards one of the gentlemen's chains, and that's when 0:08:53.960 --> 0:08:58.280 a gun's produced. Shots are fired, and very unfortunately, an 0:08:58.280 --> 0:09:03.000 innocent bystander, five year old Victoria Seymour is shot and killed, 0:09:03.679 --> 0:09:06.319 and Anthony Cook is shot in the shoulder but survives. 0:09:07.200 --> 0:09:10.320 Now at that time, mark, where were you at that 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.120 exact moment where this unfolds. 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.040 Earlier that day, I had a root canal. I was 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:17.800 kind of in pain all day, and I was you know, 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:19.640 I would go back and forth to pick my wife 0:09:19.720 --> 0:09:20.480 up from work. 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:22.960 Because Maya was working at a beauty salon. 0:09:22.880 --> 0:09:26.720 Right right, probably about I want to say, five ten minutes, 0:09:26.760 --> 0:09:29.760 maybe ten minutes away from my father's bar. So the 0:09:29.800 --> 0:09:31.400 reason I kept going back and forth because she said 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:33.280 she was gonna be reading fifte minutes. So in fifteen minutes, 0:09:33.320 --> 0:09:35.840 I'm thinking we're going home. You know, I'm in pain 0:09:35.880 --> 0:09:38.480 for a root canal earlier that day, but around that 0:09:38.600 --> 0:09:41.959 time she finally was ready, I put her in the car. 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.080 But if I'm not mistaken, around that time I was 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.640 actually in a bar, and I stopped at a bar 0:09:46.720 --> 0:09:50.280 because someone suggested take a shot. And you know, I 0:09:50.320 --> 0:09:52.680 wasn't a drinker, but I was willing to try anything. 0:09:52.720 --> 0:09:55.280 At that point, I was in the scruciate pain and 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:56.520 I went home and laid down. 0:09:57.160 --> 0:10:00.480 You are almost thirty miles away at that exact time, 0:10:00.760 --> 0:10:03.920 and you have multiple people who can back you up 0:10:03.960 --> 0:10:07.160 on that story. So how did they settle upon Mark? 0:10:07.240 --> 0:10:09.080 How does Mark get dragged into this? 0:10:09.679 --> 0:10:13.720 It's not clear to us exactly how that happened. We 0:10:13.800 --> 0:10:17.320 know that for this happened on September second, nineteen eighty six, 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.679 and we know that for the next two weeks they 0:10:20.679 --> 0:10:23.440 took statements from a lot of different people. They never 0:10:23.520 --> 0:10:28.840 got a consistent description of the assailant. After about two weeks, 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:32.240 they developed some information that it was some group of 0:10:32.400 --> 0:10:36.240 young men from Hartford who came up to Springfield. The 0:10:36.280 --> 0:10:39.439 Springfield police got in touch with the Hartford police. Then 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:44.600 in about a week, a detective from Hartford produced about 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:50.680 thirty mugshots, and from those photographs, somehow Mark's photo became 0:10:51.200 --> 0:10:55.560 the subject of attention, and it began they begin to 0:10:55.679 --> 0:11:01.120 use it prominently. At the same time, they had obtained 0:11:01.240 --> 0:11:05.880 The Springfield police had obtained three polaroid photographs. 0:11:06.000 --> 0:11:07.840 So this was one of the things that I was 0:11:07.960 --> 0:11:12.440 shouting at my screen over. So those polaroid pictures were 0:11:12.559 --> 0:11:16.520 taken of Mark, not related to this shooting at all. 0:11:16.679 --> 0:11:19.000 But they told you, Mark that there was some kind 0:11:19.040 --> 0:11:22.000 of traffic infraction based on your motorcycle. 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:24.640 Correct, it was maybe, like I want to say, like 0:11:24.800 --> 0:11:28.240 forty five to fifty motorcycles. We drove to New Haven 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:31.400 to a parade. When we came back, we all lined 0:11:31.480 --> 0:11:34.080 up in front of my father's bar. Well, there's almost 0:11:34.120 --> 0:11:38.400 forty bikes there, and the cop walked across the street 0:11:38.640 --> 0:11:41.400 and came straight to my bike. He put his hand 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:44.000 on the on the tank and he said, oh, this 0:11:44.120 --> 0:11:46.800 bike is warm. You've been riding this bike and you 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:50.680 don't have a motorcycle license. Now, he didn't ask me 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:52.559 for my license, he didn't ask me my name, He 0:11:52.600 --> 0:11:55.000 didn't he didn't know I didn't have a motorcycle license. 0:11:55.000 --> 0:11:57.880 There's forty guys there, so apparently he already knew something 0:11:57.920 --> 0:12:00.240 about me. So he said, I'm going to I told 0:12:00.240 --> 0:12:03.080 your bike, and you're going downtown. They took me downtown 0:12:03.320 --> 0:12:05.680 and while I was downtown. You know, I had nothing 0:12:05.679 --> 0:12:07.199 to hide, So he said, you mind if I take 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.199 a photovoid of you? Mind if I take a picture 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.440 of you? I said, you know, I'm thinking I'm gonna 0:12:11.440 --> 0:12:13.600 get a ticket and get out of there. But apparently 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.000 this was a part of the whole thing. Is kind 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:18.680 of blatantly obvious, because you don't toll a guy's bike 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:20.880 and give him a ticket and take them downtown for 0:12:21.120 --> 0:12:23.880 driving a motorcycle without a permit. First of all, that's 0:12:23.920 --> 0:12:26.360 a warning, you know. Second of all, he didn't see 0:12:26.360 --> 0:12:29.280 me driving a motorcycle. He just walked over here, right. 0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.480 And they clearly didn't pick you out at random. But 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:34.199 one of the reasons they might have picked you out 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:38.080 were the glasses you were wearing, because the police interviewed 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.240 two teenage boys who said they were at a pizza 0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.400 King restaurant on the night of the nightclub shooting. They 0:12:44.559 --> 0:12:47.480 tell the police that six men came in asking about 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:50.720 a gold chain that was stolen at a run DMC concert, 0:12:51.200 --> 0:12:54.319 and the chain they were looking for sounded a lot 0:12:54.360 --> 0:12:58.679 like the one that Heavy Stokes was wearing. The teenage 0:12:58.679 --> 0:13:01.440 boys described the men asking about the chain to be 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:06.199 about five seven with cornrows and gazelle glasses and John 0:13:06.760 --> 0:13:09.240 if I'm not mistaken. They also said that these men 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:13.000 left in a customized blue and gray van with Connecticut plates. 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:18.080 That's right, Lauren. These were two fifteen year old middle 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:22.760 school students. They reported that they had this encounter, and 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.640 that does introduce Randy Weaver into the case. And there 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.360 are some notable things about Randy, and he's probably the 0:13:31.440 --> 0:13:34.839 person that the police were actually looking for because he 0:13:35.280 --> 0:13:38.920 was While he was not a look alike, he resembled 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:45.400 Mark strongly. They are about the same size. They were 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:51.600 both run DMC officionados. They both followed or used the 0:13:51.679 --> 0:13:58.760 run DMC style of dress and cornrows, braids, gazelle glasses, 0:13:59.160 --> 0:14:05.160 and Randy had a two toned blue Chevrolet van with 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:10.160 Connecticut license plates. That van was also spotted or a 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:14.200 van like that was spotted leaving the vicinity of the 0:14:14.240 --> 0:14:18.840 after five after the shooting. Randy Weaver was later stopped 0:14:19.400 --> 0:14:23.440 in Hartford and his van was impounded. Weaver was a 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:27.600 guy who had they had mixed with the Hartford police 0:14:27.680 --> 0:14:33.000 as a drug dealer earlier in his career, and he 0:14:33.280 --> 0:14:36.720 lived in the same vicinity and so he got word 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:41.040 that people were looking at him and pointing out that 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.560 he looked like Mark Shand who had already been arrested. 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:48.640 He changed his appearance, he cut his hair, and he 0:14:48.800 --> 0:14:53.760 kind of disappeared himself because he figured, as he told 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:58.520 us later, the police didn't know who they were after, 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:01.960 but they had already grabbed Mark. Randy knew that Mark 0:15:02.080 --> 0:15:05.040 wasn't involved, and he was afraid that he would be, 0:15:05.680 --> 0:15:09.120 that he would be arrested because he was there. He 0:15:09.200 --> 0:15:11.840 came to us later and he told us that he 0:15:12.040 --> 0:15:14.320 was there at the time that the shooting occurred. 0:15:14.800 --> 0:15:17.880 And so that makes it that much more suspicious. Mark, 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:22.360 that you're targeted out of one of forty bikes and 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:25.920 you're brought in because you're wearing these gazelles. You match 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:30.160 the basic description of Randy Weaver, and now they've taken 0:15:30.240 --> 0:15:34.480 polaroid shots of you that then pop up almost as 0:15:34.960 --> 0:15:38.480 training tools to retrofit placing you at the scene of 0:15:38.480 --> 0:15:41.200 the crime. John, will you just dive in a little 0:15:41.200 --> 0:15:45.880 bit about the way in which photos were used to 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:48.840 in this case misidentify the person. 0:15:49.360 --> 0:15:54.359 We have a fairly definite and also kind of sketchy 0:15:54.720 --> 0:15:58.480 at the same time understanding of that what we do 0:15:58.640 --> 0:16:01.640 know is that the police had somewhere between thirty and 0:16:01.760 --> 0:16:06.200 forty photos that they were using. But what we also 0:16:06.280 --> 0:16:09.960 know is that they were so disorganized. That is, not 0:16:10.120 --> 0:16:15.000 deliberately disorganized, but just not professionally trained. They were not 0:16:15.080 --> 0:16:19.160 well coordinated. So they would guys would go police officers 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:23.760 would go out on their own shift and take photographs 0:16:23.760 --> 0:16:29.120 with them, find witnesses, take statements, show the photographs, and 0:16:29.560 --> 0:16:34.080 not make good records either of what photographs they were showing, 0:16:35.120 --> 0:16:38.880 what combinations we call them arrays. But they didn't do 0:16:39.000 --> 0:16:43.240 that systematically, and they in particular, they didn't make a 0:16:43.360 --> 0:16:47.240 record of negative responses. They would not write that down 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:50.280 because that didn't help their case. At this point, they 0:16:50.280 --> 0:16:53.840 were not really investigating as much as they were putting 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.160 together a case against Mark shand. 0:16:56.440 --> 0:16:58.920 So tunnel vision had definitely set. 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:04.080 In yes, And since they weren't keeping good records, their 0:17:04.080 --> 0:17:09.520 work could be adjusted as their information developed and as 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:14.200 they moved along. So if they had had an unsatisfactory 0:17:14.240 --> 0:17:20.159 interview or an unsatisfactory showing with a witness, they didn't 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:24.240 need to deal with that because they didn't necessarily keep 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:25.879 a record of it, and they could go back to 0:17:25.920 --> 0:17:29.960 that witness later with a different set of photographs and 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:32.840 come up with an identification. 0:17:32.640 --> 0:17:35.480 Which led to your arrest. Mark, can you take me 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:39.439 to the exact day and time of your arrest and 0:17:39.440 --> 0:17:40.399 how that went down. 0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:44.280 That day, I stopped by to talk to my dad. 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:46.000 He was in the bod door of various things, and 0:17:46.040 --> 0:17:48.840 I spoke with him a little bit. I went to 0:17:50.040 --> 0:17:53.880 talk to my sister, not doing nothing in particularly. One 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:55.760 guy drove by and he told me, he says, you know, 0:17:55.800 --> 0:17:58.719 they call me Cash was my nickname, and he said Cash. Listen, 0:17:58.960 --> 0:18:01.239 I don't know, keep looking at you. The driving back 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:05.040 forth looking at you. I said, okay, whatever. So I 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:08.720 saw them go this way, you know, I'm talking or 0:18:08.760 --> 0:18:13.040 whatever to someone, and the cop car comes back this 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:17.439 way and it stops, and you know, they an officer 0:18:17.480 --> 0:18:20.560 got out and he said are you Mark. Shannon said yeah, 0:18:20.960 --> 0:18:23.760 you know, he says you're under the rest for murder. 0:18:23.920 --> 0:18:26.560 I was like what, And he pulled out his handcuffs 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:28.800 and a couple of people heard it. Like you know, 0:18:28.880 --> 0:18:31.080 people thought like we was being punked or something, or 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.240 you know, it's a TV show. Nobody thought it was serious. 0:18:33.320 --> 0:18:35.600 I didn't, you know, I really thought it was a joke. 0:18:36.040 --> 0:18:37.800 I said, well, would you say he said you're under 0:18:37.840 --> 0:18:38.600 rest for murder? 0:18:38.640 --> 0:18:42.080 Well, tell me tell me about the interrogation that took place. 0:18:42.400 --> 0:18:45.520 Well, it wasn't much of an interrogation. It was blatantly 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:48.280 obvious that the Harford cops didn't know much of what's 0:18:48.320 --> 0:18:50.399 going on. You know, you could tell it was a 0:18:50.440 --> 0:18:52.800 thing where they was just told like, you know, some 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.280 youth from here, and they went and snatched me. And 0:18:55.480 --> 0:18:57.520 I could see that they were just holding me and waiting, 0:18:57.560 --> 0:19:01.800 and then so could Turney by the name of Francis Bloom, 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:06.200 and two officers came in. And it wasn't much of 0:19:06.240 --> 0:19:09.560 an arrogation. You know. He told me stuff like I 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:13.760 know you was in Springfield and you're a you're a 0:19:13.800 --> 0:19:16.080 no good, murdering piece of shit, and I'm gonna put 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:18.920 you away, and you know, just it was. It's a 0:19:18.960 --> 0:19:21.719 little foggy now, but he was basically telling me. He 0:19:21.800 --> 0:19:24.520 wasn't asking me anything. He's basically telling me he knew 0:19:24.520 --> 0:19:26.880 I did it, and I'm gonna get you for murder, 0:19:27.280 --> 0:19:29.440 and why'd you come up to Springfield? And that said, 0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.240 I've never been in Springfield, called me a liar, and 0:19:31.720 --> 0:19:34.080 you know that sort of thing. So it wasn't an 0:19:34.119 --> 0:19:36.640 interrogation per se. They didn't sit me down and say, 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:39.320 have you ever been to Springfield? Do your own a van? 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:41.919 None of it wasn't that kind of thing. It was 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.320 more accusatory. You know. He was screaming at me. I 0:19:45.320 --> 0:19:47.280 don't know if it was for effect or not. And 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:49.680 I think he was a little flustered that I wasn't, 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.280 you know, flustered. I think that bothered him a little because, 0:19:53.359 --> 0:19:55.680 quite frankly, I wasn't fluster because I didn't kill anybody. 0:19:55.680 --> 0:19:58.639 So I'm thinking this is gonna blow over, Like maybe 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:00.520 they'll come and be like, Mark, you know, we made mistake. 0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:02.960 Maybe they'll get me up there, and some people look 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:04.520 at me back, that's not the guy, and I'll be 0:20:04.560 --> 0:20:08.680 home tomorrow. I'll be out tomorrow. And I didn't come 0:20:08.680 --> 0:20:09.800 home for three decades. 0:20:22.119 --> 0:20:25.840 So you're arrested, you're in jail, and then at some 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:30.120 point a lineup is suggested and you say, let's do it. 0:20:30.520 --> 0:20:33.200 You know, the lineup is presented to Heavy Stokes, who 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:35.680 was one of the guys involved in the cocaine deal. 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:38.640 Tell me about that lineup, Mark, So. 0:20:38.800 --> 0:20:42.360 The lineup was really suggestive and it was beyond suggestive. 0:20:42.480 --> 0:20:44.200 John probably could speak to it better than I can. 0:20:44.440 --> 0:20:47.760 But within this lineup, it was myself. It was an 0:20:47.800 --> 0:20:52.280 officer that had previously arrested the guy that was doing 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:56.200 a lineup. One of them saved his life by sticking 0:20:56.200 --> 0:20:58.520 his finger in a bullet hole, so he knew that guy. 0:20:58.800 --> 0:21:00.600 It was another guy who grew up with him, another 0:21:00.600 --> 0:21:02.480 guy who he knew from the neighborhood, and it was me. 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:05.920 So it was quite obviously, you know, it was quite 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:07.800 obviously who he was supposed to point out. I mean, 0:21:07.840 --> 0:21:10.720 he know the cop didn't come from Harvard to kill anyone. 0:21:10.800 --> 0:21:12.919 He knew the other cop who stuck his finger in 0:21:12.960 --> 0:21:14.720 his bullet hole didn't do it. He knew the guy 0:21:14.720 --> 0:21:16.879 he knew from the neighborhood didn't do it. You know. 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.720 So the lineup was really suggestive, and you know, I 0:21:19.760 --> 0:21:21.520 guess I was the only guy in there that could 0:21:21.560 --> 0:21:24.360 have been, you know, in his mind, could have been 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:25.320 responsible for it. 0:21:25.760 --> 0:21:28.440 So exactly that that was another point where I'm screaming 0:21:28.480 --> 0:21:31.960 at my screen. You're the only guy in that lineup 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:35.359 that the person who's supposed to identify you doesn't. 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:37.000 Know, right exactly, That's right. 0:21:37.080 --> 0:21:40.840 The lineup was a staged lineup. It was designed to 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:45.040 produce an identification of Mark. The second thing that was 0:21:45.040 --> 0:21:52.280 at work here is the practice of rewarding witnesses. Nobody 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:54.600 else gets to do that. We the rest of us, 0:21:54.720 --> 0:21:59.359 have to get our witnesses the honest way. That is, 0:21:59.440 --> 0:22:01.959 we want you to tell us what you know. We 0:22:02.000 --> 0:22:04.800 want you to testify to what you know, and if 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:07.440 you do that, all we can do is say thank you. 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:11.480 The police and the prosecutors can say to a witness, 0:22:11.840 --> 0:22:16.800 you are facing charges in another case. If you testify 0:22:16.880 --> 0:22:19.560 for us in this case, we'll give you a break 0:22:20.200 --> 0:22:24.320 on the prosecution we have against you in that other case. 0:22:25.560 --> 0:22:30.679 So that witness is compromised by that offer of leniency 0:22:31.280 --> 0:22:36.919 in exchange for testimony. That's a common standard practice around 0:22:37.000 --> 0:22:41.159 the United States, and it is a terrible problem. 0:22:41.680 --> 0:22:45.880 And that definitely was on display in the trial because 0:22:46.160 --> 0:22:50.320 there were six witnesses who testified against you, and they 0:22:50.440 --> 0:22:56.879 all had incentive to identify you in one form or another. 0:22:57.320 --> 0:23:01.680 Take me to the trial, John, I know that Linda, 0:23:02.280 --> 0:23:06.359 your partner, was actually at the trial at some point. 0:23:06.640 --> 0:23:09.919 How would you give me a brief synopsis of the trial. 0:23:09.960 --> 0:23:11.280 How would you categorize it. 0:23:11.800 --> 0:23:17.919 As we've noted, there were six eyewitnesses who claimed that 0:23:18.000 --> 0:23:22.919 they were at the after five and saw this brief 0:23:23.000 --> 0:23:26.520 flurry of events. It was a pretty straightforward case in 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:31.120 that sense. The big handicap to the defense was that 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:35.600 they were not Roy Anderson was not aware of silent 0:23:35.800 --> 0:23:40.280 arrangements for testimony. For example, not only Heavy Stokes, who 0:23:40.400 --> 0:23:43.359 was one of the victims, but Anthony Cook, who was 0:23:43.440 --> 0:23:46.680