1 00:00:00,280 --> 00:00:03,320 Speaker 1: Hey, it's me Jason Plum and I'm Lauren Brai Pacheco. 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:06,120 Speaker 2: So for any of my listeners who aren't already familiar 3 00:00:06,160 --> 00:00:08,840 Speaker 2: with you, Lauren is the I'm going to embarrass you now, 4 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 2: the absolutely brilliant investigative journalist and the host of the 5 00:00:13,400 --> 00:00:17,960 Speaker 2: wildly popular series started with Murder in Oregon my favorite, 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: then Murder in Illinois incredible, and coming in January twenty 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 2: twenty three to the iHeartRadio app or wherever you listen 8 00:00:24,200 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 2: to podcasts, Murder in Miami. 9 00:00:26,520 --> 00:00:29,760 Speaker 1: Well, I am a'm flattered by that, but you know 10 00:00:29,880 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: you are one of my idols. Really, the work that 11 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:37,200 Speaker 1: you've done in the wrongful Conviction space and judicial reform 12 00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: is just phenomenal, and Wrongful Conviction is one of my 13 00:00:41,280 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: favorite podcasts. And congratulations to you guys for hitting now 14 00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:50,760 Speaker 1: the milestone of three hundred episodes. And that I mean, 15 00:00:50,840 --> 00:00:54,760 Speaker 1: the fact that there are three hundred of these cases 16 00:00:54,880 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: of wrongfully convicted men and women who have suffered needlessly 17 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:01,880 Speaker 1: in prison for decades is just overwhelming. 18 00:01:02,400 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 2: Well, the fact is, three hundred isn't even the beginning 19 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,039 Speaker 2: of the top of the tip of the iceberg. There 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 2: are tens of thousands of wrongfully convicted people. We are 21 00:01:12,319 --> 00:01:14,080 Speaker 2: just telling some of the stories of some of the 22 00:01:14,120 --> 00:01:18,319 Speaker 2: ones we know about, and they're outrageous. Everyone blows my mind. 23 00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,080 Speaker 2: And you know, in order to help spread this word, 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: I've asked some of the people I most admire, including 25 00:01:25,840 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 2: some who are wrongfully convicted, some of the best attorneys 26 00:01:28,480 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: in the country, crimals, attorneys, and of course some of 27 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,200 Speaker 2: my favorite podcast hosts and journalists, and you, Lauren, were 28 00:01:33,280 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 2: at the top of my list. 29 00:01:35,360 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: I really sincerely appreciate that vote of confidence, but I 30 00:01:39,880 --> 00:01:44,200 Speaker 1: have to say I was so appreciative and honored to 31 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:46,960 Speaker 1: get the chance to fill in for you, but to 32 00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:49,720 Speaker 1: also have the opportunity to speak with Mark Shand and 33 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: his attorney. It's an incredibly heartbreaking, moving and infuriating story. 34 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:58,920 Speaker 2: Well, you did a phenomenal job. I'm so excited to 35 00:01:58,920 --> 00:02:01,600 Speaker 2: be able to present this to audience. Please listen to 36 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 2: this important episode of Wrongful Conviction. 37 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,760 Speaker 1: Back in nineteen eighty six in Springfield, Massachusetts, the After 38 00:02:11,840 --> 00:02:14,680 Speaker 1: Five night club was a place where a few shady 39 00:02:14,760 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: characters liked to hang out. Two of them were the 40 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:20,639 Speaker 1: Stokes brothers, and on the night in question, they were 41 00:02:20,639 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 1: outside selling cocaine, but that night, their cocaine deal went bad. 42 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: A couple young guys approached the brothers and their two customers. 43 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: One of them lunged for a gold chain and a 44 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:35,800 Speaker 1: scuffle began. Someone pulled out a gun and started shooting. 45 00:02:36,280 --> 00:02:39,079 Speaker 1: One of the customers, Anthony Cook, was shot in the 46 00:02:39,120 --> 00:02:42,840 Speaker 1: shoulder and meet it out alive, but an innocent bystander, 47 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: Victoria Seymour, was killed. Witnesses to the shooting reported seeing 48 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:52,160 Speaker 1: a blue van with Connecticut plates, so during their investigation, 49 00:02:52,280 --> 00:02:55,919 Speaker 1: the Springfield cops reached out to the police in Hartford, Connecticut, 50 00:02:56,120 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: looking for some leads. In a completely unprofessional investigation, the 51 00:03:01,440 --> 00:03:05,240 Speaker 1: Hartford police landed on Mark Shand, a teenager who had 52 00:03:05,240 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: recently moved into the city. On November twentieth, nineteen eighty seven, 53 00:03:09,760 --> 00:03:13,040 Speaker 1: he was convicted of murder and sentenced to natural life 54 00:03:13,040 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 1: in prison without the possibility of parole. This is wrongful conviction. 55 00:03:29,880 --> 00:03:33,560 Speaker 1: I'm Lauren Brai Pacheco. I'm a broadcast journalist and a podcaster. 56 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 1: You may have listened to my shows Murder in Oregon 57 00:03:36,640 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 1: and Murder in Illinois, Mark and John. I am so 58 00:03:40,040 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: excited to be sitting in this chair guest hosting for Jason, 59 00:03:43,440 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: because I have to tell you. In my career, I've 60 00:03:45,840 --> 00:03:49,440 Speaker 1: covered wrongful convictions and stories of corruptions. But this is 61 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:52,920 Speaker 1: such an insane story that I found myself screaming up 62 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:55,360 Speaker 1: my monitor while I was doing research for it. It's 63 00:03:55,840 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 1: just unbelievable. So thank you both for speaking with me. 64 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: I'd love you both to introduce yourselves. Mark, why don't 65 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 1: you start. 66 00:04:04,840 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 3: Well, my name is Mark Shan. I am originally from 67 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 3: I was born in Queen's, New York, raised in Queens. 68 00:04:10,560 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: My father and my mom came in from Panama when 69 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:17,039 Speaker 3: they were pretty young, and you know, I was basically 70 00:04:17,160 --> 00:04:21,520 Speaker 3: raised in New York. My dad relocated to Hartford, Connecticut 71 00:04:21,560 --> 00:04:24,440 Speaker 3: area when I was very young. He was a small 72 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:27,920 Speaker 3: business owner. He had several small businesses. Kind of make 73 00:04:27,960 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 3: a long story, stort and get to the meat of it. 74 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 3: I came up to help him with some of his 75 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 3: small businesses. I was subsequently arrested, as you know, taken 76 00:04:36,720 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 3: to Massachusetts. I was put on trial for murder. I 77 00:04:41,000 --> 00:04:45,479 Speaker 3: had absolutely no involvement in. I was found guilty, sentenced 78 00:04:45,480 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 3: to natural life without the eligibility of parole, and as 79 00:04:49,920 --> 00:04:52,719 Speaker 3: you also know, I started twenty seven years in prison 80 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:54,440 Speaker 3: for a crime I didn't commit. 81 00:04:54,839 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: And John, you were instrumental in helping write this wrong. 82 00:04:58,440 --> 00:05:02,440 Speaker 4: Well, yes, I am my partner Linda Thompson, and Linda 83 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 4: is actually the one who first became involved in Mark's case. 84 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:09,839 Speaker 4: Linda and I are partners in a small firm of 85 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:14,120 Speaker 4: Thompson and Thompson in Springfield, mass I've been practicing law 86 00:05:14,200 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 4: since nineteen seventy four, Linda since nineteen seventy six, so 87 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:22,719 Speaker 4: we're veterans. Linda became involved in Mark's trial when Mark's 88 00:05:22,760 --> 00:05:27,840 Speaker 4: trial lawyer consulted her about whether Mark should testify in 89 00:05:27,880 --> 00:05:32,480 Speaker 4: his own defense, and so we were not directly involved 90 00:05:32,560 --> 00:05:36,440 Speaker 4: in the trial, but we were present when the verdict 91 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:41,080 Speaker 4: was returned, and very shortly after that we took over 92 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,719 Speaker 4: the case to do appeals and motions for a new trial. 93 00:05:46,360 --> 00:05:50,120 Speaker 4: So we worked on this case for almost as long 94 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:54,919 Speaker 4: as Mark was in prison, about twenty six twenty seven years. 95 00:05:55,360 --> 00:05:59,200 Speaker 1: Which is very unusual with the wrongful conviction case that 96 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,680 Speaker 1: you were involved from the beginning, Mark, could you tell 97 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:04,880 Speaker 1: us a little bit more about your life in Hertford 98 00:06:05,160 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 1: before all of this began. 99 00:06:07,040 --> 00:06:09,279 Speaker 3: When I came up here, I was just turned eighteen 100 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:11,880 Speaker 3: before this happened. You know, I kind of lived a 101 00:06:11,880 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 3: normal teenage life. You know, I wasn't the best kid, 102 00:06:15,600 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 3: you know. I mean I got into a little bit 103 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 3: of trouble stuff like that, not that major at all. 104 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 3: I think I was eighteen going on nineteen when I 105 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:25,280 Speaker 3: was arrested. But before my arrest, you know, I would 106 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 3: help my dad out with his small business. I would 107 00:06:27,440 --> 00:06:29,800 Speaker 3: go back and forth to New York. And you know 108 00:06:30,400 --> 00:06:32,600 Speaker 3: it was kind of short, you know, my life before 109 00:06:32,640 --> 00:06:36,120 Speaker 3: this happened. In regards to me relocating in Connecticut, I 110 00:06:36,160 --> 00:06:37,839 Speaker 3: was not here long before I was arrested. 111 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,159 Speaker 1: But right before you were arrested, you actually met the 112 00:06:41,160 --> 00:06:45,560 Speaker 1: woman who became the love of your life and the 113 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 1: mother of your third son. Yes, Quentin, John, if you 114 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,600 Speaker 1: could take me now, you were living in Hartford, Mark, 115 00:06:52,680 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: but the crime that you were convicted of committing actually 116 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,920 Speaker 1: occurred in Springfield, Massachusetts, which is about twenty seven twenty 117 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 1: eight miles away. You're from Springfield, John, correct, If you 118 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: could just kind of paint a picture of Springfield in 119 00:07:09,440 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty six for me, particularly around the club where 120 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,520 Speaker 1: the crime that Mark was convicted of committing occurred. 121 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 4: Well, Springfield at that time was a fairly segregated city 122 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 4: and at the time, in the mid eighties, there was 123 00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 4: a lot of drug trafficking and use, particularly cocaine. There 124 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:37,320 Speaker 4: were quite a few homicides compared to the size of 125 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,360 Speaker 4: the city, and the police were typical of the police 126 00:07:42,800 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 4: around this area at that time. That is, most of 127 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:50,560 Speaker 4: the police training was on the job training. There were 128 00:07:50,560 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 4: a lot of problems with the in the criminal justice system, 129 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:59,400 Speaker 4: with the process of discovery, so there was a constant 130 00:07:59,440 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 4: struggle on the defense side trying to get information and 131 00:08:03,800 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 4: evidence that would help the defendant in court. 132 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,000 Speaker 1: It's safe to say that it wasn't exactly a level 133 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 1: playing field, and that is something, particularly with the exculpatory 134 00:08:14,000 --> 00:08:17,760 Speaker 1: evidence that very much plays into Mark's case. But let's 135 00:08:17,880 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 1: actually go to the night of the crime. So shortly 136 00:08:20,600 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 1: after eleven PM on September second, nineteen eighty six in Springfield, Massachusetts, 137 00:08:26,000 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 1: there is a drug deal that goes bad outside the 138 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: After five lounge and there's four gentlemen involved, Charles heavy Stokes, 139 00:08:33,400 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: his brother David, and they're engaged in a drug deal 140 00:08:35,800 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: with two other guys, Anthony Cook and Michael Houston, and 141 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 1: that's when things go wrong. Apparently they're approached by several 142 00:08:44,440 --> 00:08:47,160 Speaker 1: unidentified young men who basically ask if they can see 143 00:08:47,200 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: what's going on, and in that scuffle, one of them 144 00:08:50,600 --> 00:08:53,959 Speaker 1: grabs towards one of the gentlemen's chains, and that's when 145 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:58,280 Speaker 1: a gun's produced. Shots are fired, and very unfortunately, an 146 00:08:58,280 --> 00:09:03,000 Speaker 1: innocent bystander, five year old Victoria Seymour is shot and killed, 147 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,319 Speaker 1: and Anthony Cook is shot in the shoulder but survives. 148 00:09:07,200 --> 00:09:10,320 Speaker 1: Now at that time, mark, where were you at that 149 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: exact moment where this unfolds. 150 00:09:13,520 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 3: Earlier that day, I had a root canal. I was 151 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 3: kind of in pain all day, and I was you know, 152 00:09:17,880 --> 00:09:19,640 Speaker 3: I would go back and forth to pick my wife 153 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:20,480 Speaker 3: up from work. 154 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,960 Speaker 1: Because Maya was working at a beauty salon. 155 00:09:22,880 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 3: Right right, probably about I want to say, five ten minutes, 156 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 3: maybe ten minutes away from my father's bar. So the 157 00:09:29,800 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 3: reason I kept going back and forth because she said 158 00:09:31,400 --> 00:09:33,280 Speaker 3: she was gonna be reading fifte minutes. So in fifteen minutes, 159 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:35,840 Speaker 3: I'm thinking we're going home. You know, I'm in pain 160 00:09:35,880 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 3: for a root canal earlier that day, but around that 161 00:09:38,600 --> 00:09:41,959 Speaker 3: time she finally was ready, I put her in the car. 162 00:09:42,200 --> 00:09:44,080 Speaker 3: But if I'm not mistaken, around that time I was 163 00:09:44,120 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 3: actually in a bar, and I stopped at a bar 164 00:09:46,720 --> 00:09:50,280 Speaker 3: because someone suggested take a shot. And you know, I 165 00:09:50,320 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 3: wasn't a drinker, but I was willing to try anything. 166 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 3: At that point, I was in the scruciate pain and 167 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 3: I went home and laid down. 168 00:09:57,160 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: You are almost thirty miles away at that exact time, 169 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:03,920 Speaker 1: and you have multiple people who can back you up 170 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: on that story. So how did they settle upon Mark? 171 00:10:07,240 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: How does Mark get dragged into this? 172 00:10:09,679 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 4: It's not clear to us exactly how that happened. We 173 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:17,320 Speaker 4: know that for this happened on September second, nineteen eighty six, 174 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 4: and we know that for the next two weeks they 175 00:10:20,679 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 4: took statements from a lot of different people. They never 176 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 4: got a consistent description of the assailant. After about two weeks, 177 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:32,240 Speaker 4: they developed some information that it was some group of 178 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:36,240 Speaker 4: young men from Hartford who came up to Springfield. The 179 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:39,439 Speaker 4: Springfield police got in touch with the Hartford police. Then 180 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,600 Speaker 4: in about a week, a detective from Hartford produced about 181 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:50,680 Speaker 4: thirty mugshots, and from those photographs, somehow Mark's photo became 182 00:10:51,200 --> 00:10:55,560 Speaker 4: the subject of attention, and it began they begin to 183 00:10:55,679 --> 00:11:01,120 Speaker 4: use it prominently. At the same time, they had obtained 184 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:05,880 Speaker 4: The Springfield police had obtained three polaroid photographs. 185 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: So this was one of the things that I was 186 00:11:07,960 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 1: shouting at my screen over. So those polaroid pictures were 187 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:16,520 Speaker 1: taken of Mark, not related to this shooting at all. 188 00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: But they told you, Mark that there was some kind 189 00:11:19,040 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: of traffic infraction based on your motorcycle. 190 00:11:22,120 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 3: Correct, it was maybe, like I want to say, like 191 00:11:24,800 --> 00:11:28,240 Speaker 3: forty five to fifty motorcycles. We drove to New Haven 192 00:11:28,320 --> 00:11:31,400 Speaker 3: to a parade. When we came back, we all lined 193 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 3: up in front of my father's bar. Well, there's almost 194 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 3: forty bikes there, and the cop walked across the street 195 00:11:38,640 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 3: and came straight to my bike. He put his hand 196 00:11:41,440 --> 00:11:44,000 Speaker 3: on the on the tank and he said, oh, this 197 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 3: bike is warm. You've been riding this bike and you 198 00:11:46,840 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 3: don't have a motorcycle license. Now, he didn't ask me 199 00:11:50,720 --> 00:11:52,559 Speaker 3: for my license, he didn't ask me my name, He 200 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: didn't he didn't know I didn't have a motorcycle license. 201 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:57,880 Speaker 3: There's forty guys there, so apparently he already knew something 202 00:11:57,920 --> 00:12:00,240 Speaker 3: about me. So he said, I'm going to I told 203 00:12:00,240 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 3: your bike, and you're going downtown. They took me downtown 204 00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 3: and while I was downtown. You know, I had nothing 205 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 3: to hide, So he said, you mind if I take 206 00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:09,199 Speaker 3: a photovoid of you? Mind if I take a picture 207 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 3: of you? I said, you know, I'm thinking I'm gonna 208 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 3: get a ticket and get out of there. But apparently 209 00:12:13,640 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 3: this was a part of the whole thing. Is kind 210 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:18,680 Speaker 3: of blatantly obvious, because you don't toll a guy's bike 211 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:20,880 Speaker 3: and give him a ticket and take them downtown for 212 00:12:21,120 --> 00:12:23,880 Speaker 3: driving a motorcycle without a permit. First of all, that's 213 00:12:23,920 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 3: a warning, you know. Second of all, he didn't see 214 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:29,280 Speaker 3: me driving a motorcycle. He just walked over here, right. 215 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: And they clearly didn't pick you out at random. But 216 00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:34,199 Speaker 1: one of the reasons they might have picked you out 217 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 1: were the glasses you were wearing, because the police interviewed 218 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 1: two teenage boys who said they were at a pizza 219 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:44,400 Speaker 1: King restaurant on the night of the nightclub shooting. They 220 00:12:44,559 --> 00:12:47,480 Speaker 1: tell the police that six men came in asking about 221 00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:50,720 Speaker 1: a gold chain that was stolen at a run DMC concert, 222 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:54,319 Speaker 1: and the chain they were looking for sounded a lot 223 00:12:54,360 --> 00:12:58,679 Speaker 1: like the one that Heavy Stokes was wearing. The teenage 224 00:12:58,679 --> 00:13:01,440 Speaker 1: boys described the men asking about the chain to be 225 00:13:01,440 --> 00:13:06,199 Speaker 1: about five seven with cornrows and gazelle glasses and John 226 00:13:06,760 --> 00:13:09,240 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. They also said that these men 227 00:13:09,320 --> 00:13:13,000 Speaker 1: left in a customized blue and gray van with Connecticut plates. 228 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 4: That's right, Lauren. These were two fifteen year old middle 229 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:22,760 Speaker 4: school students. They reported that they had this encounter, and 230 00:13:23,080 --> 00:13:26,640 Speaker 4: that does introduce Randy Weaver into the case. And there 231 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:30,360 Speaker 4: are some notable things about Randy, and he's probably the 232 00:13:31,440 --> 00:13:34,839 Speaker 4: person that the police were actually looking for because he 233 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:38,920 Speaker 4: was While he was not a look alike, he resembled 234 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 4: Mark strongly. They are about the same size. They were 235 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:51,600 Speaker 4: both run DMC officionados. They both followed or used the 236 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 4: run DMC style of dress and cornrows, braids, gazelle glasses, 237 00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:05,160 Speaker 4: and Randy had a two toned blue Chevrolet van with 238 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:10,160 Speaker 4: Connecticut license plates. That van was also spotted or a 239 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:14,200 Speaker 4: van like that was spotted leaving the vicinity of the 240 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 4: after five after the shooting. Randy Weaver was later stopped 241 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:23,440 Speaker 4: in Hartford and his van was impounded. Weaver was a 242 00:14:23,480 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 4: guy who had they had mixed with the Hartford police 243 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:33,000 Speaker 4: as a drug dealer earlier in his career, and he 244 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 4: lived in the same vicinity and so he got word 245 00:14:37,320 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 4: that people were looking at him and pointing out that 246 00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:44,560 Speaker 4: he looked like Mark Shand who had already been arrested. 247 00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 4: He changed his appearance, he cut his hair, and he 248 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 4: kind of disappeared himself because he figured, as he told 249 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 4: us later, the police didn't know who they were after, 250 00:14:58,520 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 4: but they had already grabbed Mark. Randy knew that Mark 251 00:15:02,080 --> 00:15:05,040 Speaker 4: wasn't involved, and he was afraid that he would be, 252 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:09,120 Speaker 4: that he would be arrested because he was there. He 253 00:15:09,200 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 4: came to us later and he told us that he 254 00:15:12,040 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 4: was there at the time that the shooting occurred. 255 00:15:14,800 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: And so that makes it that much more suspicious. Mark, 256 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:22,360 Speaker 1: that you're targeted out of one of forty bikes and 257 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 1: you're brought in because you're wearing these gazelles. You match 258 00:15:26,000 --> 00:15:30,160 Speaker 1: the basic description of Randy Weaver, and now they've taken 259 00:15:30,240 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 1: polaroid shots of you that then pop up almost as 260 00:15:34,960 --> 00:15:38,480 Speaker 1: training tools to retrofit placing you at the scene of 261 00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:41,200 Speaker 1: the crime. John, will you just dive in a little 262 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: bit about the way in which photos were used to 263 00:15:46,160 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: in this case misidentify the person. 264 00:15:49,360 --> 00:15:54,359 Speaker 4: We have a fairly definite and also kind of sketchy 265 00:15:54,720 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 4: at the same time understanding of that what we do 266 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:01,640 Speaker 4: know is that the police had somewhere between thirty and 267 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 4: forty photos that they were using. But what we also 268 00:16:06,280 --> 00:16:09,960 Speaker 4: know is that they were so disorganized. That is, not 269 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:15,000 Speaker 4: deliberately disorganized, but just not professionally trained. They were not 270 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 4: well coordinated. So they would guys would go police officers 271 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 4: would go out on their own shift and take photographs 272 00:16:23,760 --> 00:16:29,120 Speaker 4: with them, find witnesses, take statements, show the photographs, and 273 00:16:29,560 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 4: not make good records either of what photographs they were showing, 274 00:16:35,120 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 4: what combinations we call them arrays. But they didn't do 275 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 4: that systematically, and they in particular, they didn't make a 276 00:16:43,360 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 4: record of negative responses. They would not write that down 277 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 4: because that didn't help their case. At this point, they 278 00:16:50,280 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 4: were not really investigating as much as they were putting 279 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 4: together a case against Mark shand. 280 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:58,920 Speaker 1: So tunnel vision had definitely set. 281 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:04,080 Speaker 4: In yes, And since they weren't keeping good records, their 282 00:17:04,080 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 4: work could be adjusted as their information developed and as 283 00:17:09,520 --> 00:17:14,200 Speaker 4: they moved along. So if they had had an unsatisfactory 284 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 4: interview or an unsatisfactory showing with a witness, they didn't 285 00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:24,240 Speaker 4: need to deal with that because they didn't necessarily keep 286 00:17:24,240 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 4: a record of it, and they could go back to 287 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 4: that witness later with a different set of photographs and 288 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 4: come up with an identification. 289 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,480 Speaker 1: Which led to your arrest. Mark, can you take me 290 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: to the exact day and time of your arrest and 291 00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:40,399 Speaker 1: how that went down. 292 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:44,280 Speaker 3: That day, I stopped by to talk to my dad. 293 00:17:44,320 --> 00:17:46,000 Speaker 3: He was in the bod door of various things, and 294 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,840 Speaker 3: I spoke with him a little bit. I went to 295 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,880 Speaker 3: talk to my sister, not doing nothing in particularly. One 296 00:17:53,920 --> 00:17:55,760 Speaker 3: guy drove by and he told me, he says, you know, 297 00:17:55,800 --> 00:17:58,719 Speaker 3: they call me Cash was my nickname, and he said Cash. Listen, 298 00:17:58,960 --> 00:18:01,239 Speaker 3: I don't know, keep looking at you. The driving back 299 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 3: forth looking at you. I said, okay, whatever. So I 300 00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:08,720 Speaker 3: saw them go this way, you know, I'm talking or 301 00:18:08,760 --> 00:18:13,040 Speaker 3: whatever to someone, and the cop car comes back this 302 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:17,439 Speaker 3: way and it stops, and you know, they an officer 303 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,560 Speaker 3: got out and he said are you Mark. Shannon said yeah, 304 00:18:20,960 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 3: you know, he says you're under the rest for murder. 305 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 3: I was like what, And he pulled out his handcuffs 306 00:18:26,920 --> 00:18:28,800 Speaker 3: and a couple of people heard it. Like you know, 307 00:18:28,880 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 3: people thought like we was being punked or something, or 308 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 3: you know, it's a TV show. Nobody thought it was serious. 309 00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:35,600 Speaker 3: I didn't, you know, I really thought it was a joke. 310 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 3: I said, well, would you say he said you're under 311 00:18:37,840 --> 00:18:38,600 Speaker 3: rest for murder? 312 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: Well, tell me tell me about the interrogation that took place. 313 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 3: Well, it wasn't much of an interrogation. It was blatantly 314 00:18:45,520 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 3: obvious that the Harford cops didn't know much of what's 315 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:50,399 Speaker 3: going on. You know, you could tell it was a 316 00:18:50,440 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 3: thing where they was just told like, you know, some 317 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:55,280 Speaker 3: youth from here, and they went and snatched me. And 318 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 3: I could see that they were just holding me and waiting, 319 00:18:57,560 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 3: and then so could Turney by the name of Francis Bloom, 320 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 3: and two officers came in. And it wasn't much of 321 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,560 Speaker 3: an arrogation. You know. He told me stuff like I 322 00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:13,760 Speaker 3: know you was in Springfield and you're a you're a 323 00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 3: no good, murdering piece of shit, and I'm gonna put 324 00:19:16,119 --> 00:19:18,920 Speaker 3: you away, and you know, just it was. It's a 325 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:21,719 Speaker 3: little foggy now, but he was basically telling me. He 326 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 3: wasn't asking me anything. He's basically telling me he knew 327 00:19:24,520 --> 00:19:26,880 Speaker 3: I did it, and I'm gonna get you for murder, 328 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,440 Speaker 3: and why'd you come up to Springfield? And that said, 329 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:31,240 Speaker 3: I've never been in Springfield, called me a liar, and 330 00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 3: you know that sort of thing. So it wasn't an 331 00:19:34,119 --> 00:19:36,640 Speaker 3: interrogation per se. They didn't sit me down and say, 332 00:19:36,760 --> 00:19:39,320 Speaker 3: have you ever been to Springfield? Do your own a van? 333 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 3: None of it wasn't that kind of thing. It was 334 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 3: more accusatory. You know. He was screaming at me. I 335 00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:47,280 Speaker 3: don't know if it was for effect or not. And 336 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 3: I think he was a little flustered that I wasn't, 337 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,280 Speaker 3: you know, flustered. I think that bothered him a little because, 338 00:19:53,359 --> 00:19:55,680 Speaker 3: quite frankly, I wasn't fluster because I didn't kill anybody. 339 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,639 Speaker 3: So I'm thinking this is gonna blow over, Like maybe 340 00:19:58,640 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 3: they'll come and be like, Mark, you know, we made mistake. 341 00:20:00,640 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 3: Maybe they'll get me up there, and some people look 342 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:04,520 Speaker 3: at me back, that's not the guy, and I'll be 343 00:20:04,560 --> 00:20:08,680 Speaker 3: home tomorrow. I'll be out tomorrow. And I didn't come 344 00:20:08,680 --> 00:20:09,800 Speaker 3: home for three decades. 345 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 1: So you're arrested, you're in jail, and then at some 346 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:30,120 Speaker 1: point a lineup is suggested and you say, let's do it. 347 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:33,200 Speaker 1: You know, the lineup is presented to Heavy Stokes, who 348 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:35,680 Speaker 1: was one of the guys involved in the cocaine deal. 349 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,640 Speaker 1: Tell me about that lineup, Mark, So. 350 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:42,360 Speaker 3: The lineup was really suggestive and it was beyond suggestive. 351 00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:44,200 Speaker 3: John probably could speak to it better than I can. 352 00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:47,760 Speaker 3: But within this lineup, it was myself. It was an 353 00:20:47,800 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 3: officer that had previously arrested the guy that was doing 354 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:56,200 Speaker 3: a lineup. One of them saved his life by sticking 355 00:20:56,200 --> 00:20:58,520 Speaker 3: his finger in a bullet hole, so he knew that guy. 356 00:20:58,800 --> 00:21:00,600 Speaker 3: It was another guy who grew up with him, another 357 00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:02,480 Speaker 3: guy who he knew from the neighborhood, and it was me. 358 00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:05,920 Speaker 3: So it was quite obviously, you know, it was quite 359 00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:07,800 Speaker 3: obviously who he was supposed to point out. I mean, 360 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,720 Speaker 3: he know the cop didn't come from Harvard to kill anyone. 361 00:21:10,800 --> 00:21:12,919 Speaker 3: He knew the other cop who stuck his finger in 362 00:21:12,960 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 3: his bullet hole didn't do it. He knew the guy 363 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:16,879 Speaker 3: he knew from the neighborhood didn't do it. You know. 364 00:21:17,040 --> 00:21:19,720 Speaker 3: So the lineup was really suggestive, and you know, I 365 00:21:19,760 --> 00:21:21,520 Speaker 3: guess I was the only guy in there that could 366 00:21:21,560 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 3: have been, you know, in his mind, could have been 367 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 3: responsible for it. 368 00:21:25,760 --> 00:21:28,440 Speaker 1: So exactly that that was another point where I'm screaming 369 00:21:28,480 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: at my screen. You're the only guy in that lineup 370 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,359 Speaker 1: that the person who's supposed to identify you doesn't. 371 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:37,000 Speaker 3: Know, right exactly, That's right. 372 00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 4: The lineup was a staged lineup. It was designed to 373 00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 4: produce an identification of Mark. The second thing that was 374 00:21:45,040 --> 00:21:52,280 Speaker 4: at work here is the practice of rewarding witnesses. Nobody 375 00:21:52,280 --> 00:21:54,600 Speaker 4: else gets to do that. We the rest of us, 376 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 4: have to get our witnesses the honest way. That is, 377 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,959 Speaker 4: we want you to tell us what you know. We 378 00:22:02,000 --> 00:22:04,800 Speaker 4: want you to testify to what you know, and if 379 00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:07,440 Speaker 4: you do that, all we can do is say thank you. 380 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 4: The police and the prosecutors can say to a witness, 381 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:16,800 Speaker 4: you are facing charges in another case. If you testify 382 00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,560 Speaker 4: for us in this case, we'll give you a break 383 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 4: on the prosecution we have against you in that other case. 384 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 4: So that witness is compromised by that offer of leniency 385 00:22:31,280 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 4: in exchange for testimony. That's a common standard practice around 386 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:41,159 Speaker 4: the United States, and it is a terrible problem. 387 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,880 Speaker 1: And that definitely was on display in the trial because 388 00:22:46,160 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 1: there were six witnesses who testified against you, and they 389 00:22:50,440 --> 00:22:56,879 Speaker 1: all had incentive to identify you in one form or another. 390 00:22:57,320 --> 00:23:01,680 Speaker 1: Take me to the trial, John, I know that Linda, 391 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: your partner, was actually at the trial at some point. 392 00:23:06,640 --> 00:23:09,919 Speaker 1: How would you give me a brief synopsis of the trial. 393 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 1: How would you categorize it. 394 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:17,919 Speaker 4: As we've noted, there were six eyewitnesses who claimed that 395 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,919 Speaker 4: they were at the after five and saw this brief 396 00:23:23,000 --> 00:23:26,520 Speaker 4: flurry of events. It was a pretty straightforward case in 397 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:31,120 Speaker 4: that sense. The big handicap to the defense was that 398 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:35,600 Speaker 4: they were not Roy Anderson was not aware of silent 399 00:23:35,800 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 4: arrangements for testimony. For example, not only Heavy Stokes, who 400 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,359 Speaker 4: was one of the victims, but Anthony Cook, who was 401 00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 4: also a victim that he was shot, and his shooting 402 00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 4: was one of the charges that Mark was tried on. 403 00:23:50,240 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 4: Both of them had to be bribed, They had to 404 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:59,800 Speaker 4: be rewarded to testify. The victims wouldn't testify without a deal. 405 00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:04,600 Speaker 4: That's how thoroughly corrupt this trial was. 406 00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:08,760 Speaker 1: So the trial takes place between November ninth and twentieth 407 00:24:08,800 --> 00:24:12,320 Speaker 1: and nineteen eighty seven, and the prosecutor is the Assistant 408 00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: District Attorney, Francis Bloom, who has a rather spotty history 409 00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 1: in terms of protocol. You're going into trial knowing that 410 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:27,600 Speaker 1: there is no physical evidence linking you to any of 411 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:30,880 Speaker 1: the crimes that took place on September second, nineteen eighty six, 412 00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:35,320 Speaker 1: because you were thirty miles away at the time. Did 413 00:24:35,359 --> 00:24:37,480 Speaker 1: you go into trial fairly confident. 414 00:24:37,960 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 3: Yeah, I kind of thought that, you know, it'll come out, 415 00:24:42,040 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 3: you know, it'll all come out and to wash and 416 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:46,320 Speaker 3: one of the Drews, two or the Drews, someone had 417 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,399 Speaker 3: judged it. Someone will see that this is not driving, 418 00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:51,639 Speaker 3: it's not you know, it's not coming together. 419 00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:56,800 Speaker 1: But Mark, you had an alibi that was confirmed by 420 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:57,840 Speaker 1: seven people. 421 00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:01,000 Speaker 3: Yeah, that should have been convincing as well. 422 00:25:02,040 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 1: You're right, you had a dental procedure that was done 423 00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:08,639 Speaker 1: that day. You weren't up for clubbing that night or 424 00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:12,119 Speaker 1: driving half an hour? So how does that fall apart 425 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:13,320 Speaker 1: in the courtroom? 426 00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 4: First of all, eyewitness testimony is special, a special kind 427 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,400 Speaker 4: of testimony. The jurors are inclined to look at them 428 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,920 Speaker 4: sympathetically and expect them to know the truth. That can 429 00:25:27,000 --> 00:25:31,640 Speaker 4: be very convincing. Just one person, six of them all 430 00:25:31,680 --> 00:25:34,600 Speaker 4: saying the same thing. That's powerful evidence. 431 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,920 Speaker 1: But Mark has seven eyewitnesses who back up as alibi. 432 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:41,480 Speaker 1: How does that fall apart in court? 433 00:25:42,240 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 4: There are two basic problems with an alibi. Usually your 434 00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:49,600 Speaker 4: alibi witnesses are friends or family. Okay, So one of 435 00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 4: Mark's problems was that he was not involved in this crime. Therefore, 436 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 4: he couldn't say when it happened or what he was doing, 437 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,720 Speaker 4: where it was, and so forth. This happened on September second, 438 00:26:04,160 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 4: nineteen eighty six. Mark was arrested October twenty ninth, So 439 00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:13,639 Speaker 4: it's almost two full months before Mark is aware that 440 00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 4: he's even a suspect. And what do they do. They 441 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 4: notify the people that they were with to let them 442 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:24,920 Speaker 4: know that there's a problem that they need help with. 443 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 4: And so Maya is calling her sisters and other family 444 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 4: members and saying, do you remember September second? Do you 445 00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 4: remember what we were doing? And so they talk about 446 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:40,600 Speaker 4: what they were doing. They all discuss it, and they 447 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 4: get it down and then they go tell the lawyer. Well, 448 00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,199 Speaker 4: in the trial, after they've given their testimony, the cross 449 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,720 Speaker 4: examination goes something like this. When Maya's cross examined, the 450 00:26:53,760 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 4: prosecutor says, so, when you found out when Mark was charged, 451 00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:05,040 Speaker 4: you contacted all of these witnesses, didn't you, Yes? And 452 00:27:05,119 --> 00:27:08,520 Speaker 4: you told them when this happened. Yes, I did. And 453 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,960 Speaker 4: you all discussed your testimony, didn't you, Yes? And you 454 00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 4: all decided that you had an alibi for Mark, didn't 455 00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:20,960 Speaker 4: you yes? Okay, And that's all true, But it sounds 456 00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,920 Speaker 4: like they all got together and cooked up a story 457 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:24,320 Speaker 4: for him. 458 00:27:25,000 --> 00:27:30,359 Speaker 1: Okay, so Mark, take me to the moment when the 459 00:27:30,480 --> 00:27:31,639 Speaker 1: verdict is decided. 460 00:27:32,200 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 3: Well, uh, you know, in true dramatic fashion, they asked 461 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:39,240 Speaker 3: me to stand. They said, Mark shamt please stan and 462 00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:42,760 Speaker 3: they read the verdict. They said, you know, basically guilty 463 00:27:42,760 --> 00:27:47,440 Speaker 3: on all accounts. And I can recall distinctively. I almost 464 00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:52,439 Speaker 3: didn't hit anything else after that, but my mother's scream, 465 00:27:52,760 --> 00:27:53,360 Speaker 3: you know what I mean? 466 00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,440 Speaker 1: Do you remember turning? Was Maya in the courtroom when 467 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:01,920 Speaker 1: they announced the verdict. 468 00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 3: My whole family. Yeah, my whole family's in the court room. 469 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 3: I kind of couldn't turn around to him because I 470 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,520 Speaker 3: didn't want to look at my mother. I heard her 471 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 3: screams and it bothered me so much. I didn't want 472 00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:15,120 Speaker 3: to look at her on top of her hearing her, 473 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:20,159 Speaker 3: you know, So I just stared straight ahead. I just 474 00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:24,520 Speaker 3: heard him screaming, and I glanced back one time and 475 00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 3: it was kind of holding my mom up, and I 476 00:28:26,880 --> 00:28:31,639 Speaker 3: just started looking straight ahead again. I didn't want to 477 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:38,520 Speaker 3: look back, you know. Yeah. So yeah, that's what I 478 00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 3: remember most. And the judge was explaining to me what 479 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,560 Speaker 3: had just happened, and do I understand what had just happened? 480 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:54,800 Speaker 3: And yeah, you know, at that moment when I went myself, 481 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,760 Speaker 3: I kind of really came to the realization that I 482 00:28:58,920 --> 00:29:02,400 Speaker 3: was excuse me, French, but I was fucked. You know. 483 00:29:02,480 --> 00:29:05,920 Speaker 3: I really came to the conclusion like, wow, you know, 484 00:29:06,160 --> 00:29:08,520 Speaker 3: this is the culmination of what the fuck was going 485 00:29:08,560 --> 00:29:11,720 Speaker 3: on in the back back scenes of whatever the hell 486 00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:14,680 Speaker 3: Bloom had going on. But I kept saying to myself, like, 487 00:29:14,760 --> 00:29:17,719 Speaker 3: they really convicted me of this crime. I just couldn't 488 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 3: believe it. I you know, I had to like come 489 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:24,880 Speaker 3: to terms with that, you know, And that took me 490 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,960 Speaker 3: literally twenty seven years to come to terms with that. 491 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 3: You know, I never really, like you know, said, okay, 492 00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,320 Speaker 3: all right, you convicted. That never happened. Ever, literally every day, 493 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 3: every moment for twenty seven years, I was in disbelief 494 00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:43,800 Speaker 3: in what had happened. I really was. 495 00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:07,920 Speaker 1: So you end up serving twenty seven years in prison, 496 00:30:08,560 --> 00:30:12,120 Speaker 1: and meanwhile Maya is at home and she never gives 497 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,360 Speaker 1: up on you. Tell me about your support system while 498 00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,320 Speaker 1: you were inside, and how Maya created a home for 499 00:30:18,400 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 1: your three sons. 500 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:24,360 Speaker 3: Well, oh my gosh, that's immeasurable. I mean, right from 501 00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 3: the beginning, she supported me. She you know, she came 502 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 3: in to see me in jail. She would get my 503 00:30:31,000 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 3: other two sons from previous relationships and made sure they 504 00:30:35,480 --> 00:30:37,560 Speaker 3: got to meet each other and knew each other and 505 00:30:37,600 --> 00:30:40,680 Speaker 3: grew up together step fast. And she she was there 506 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 3: for me the entire time. You know, I would see 507 00:30:42,920 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 3: her like every week, unless it was like a snowstorm 508 00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 3: or death in the family. I want to say it 509 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 3: was like an hour and a half to our ride sometime, 510 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,960 Speaker 3: but nothing would stop her. She you know, she kept 511 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 3: my family together. She supported me, She did what she 512 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,800 Speaker 3: could financially. You know, we would scrape up money to 513 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:03,200 Speaker 3: pay investigators and attorneys. And you know, she was dead 514 00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:06,720 Speaker 3: when I was arrested, and she was dead to day 515 00:31:07,120 --> 00:31:10,360 Speaker 3: stepped foot out of it. So you know, you can't 516 00:31:10,360 --> 00:31:11,720 Speaker 3: say enough about what she did. 517 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: John, Do you want to walk me through the post 518 00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:17,160 Speaker 1: conviction litigation. 519 00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 4: We had information early on about Randy Weaver and Tracy Fisher, 520 00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:31,600 Speaker 4: in particular, those two witnesses. Those two men were being 521 00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:36,719 Speaker 4: talked about and were saying things that implicated them and 522 00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:41,520 Speaker 4: exonerated Mark. We couldn't find Randy Weaver, we found Tracy 523 00:31:41,560 --> 00:31:45,240 Speaker 4: Fisher because he was in prison. We believed that Weaver 524 00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 4: and and Fisher were key witnesses in Mark's case, but 525 00:31:52,240 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 4: they were we couldn't get any evidence from them. We 526 00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 4: were in the position now where we were doing the 527 00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:04,320 Speaker 4: appeal of Mark's conviction, saying that the trial was unfair, 528 00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 4: but we were also investigating to try to discover additional 529 00:32:08,800 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 4: evidence to show that he was not guilty. That was 530 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:18,160 Speaker 4: the time when the falsified report surfaced, the two page 531 00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:23,400 Speaker 4: report that showed that Charles Stokes had described someone who 532 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 4: could not possibly have been Mark. That was on the 533 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:29,960 Speaker 4: second page of a two page document that had been 534 00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,360 Speaker 4: altered to look like a one page document. 535 00:32:32,880 --> 00:32:36,959 Speaker 1: So you have this information that was hidden from Mark's 536 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,080 Speaker 1: original defense attorney. What did you do next? 537 00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:43,160 Speaker 4: So we went back to the trial judge Judge Murphy, 538 00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 4: and Judge Murphy laughed it off. He said, well, I 539 00:32:48,040 --> 00:32:51,640 Speaker 4: don't understand why the police did this, but the defense 540 00:32:51,720 --> 00:32:56,760 Speaker 4: had all that information anyway, which was just false, and 541 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 4: that's the way the motion for the new trial went. 542 00:32:58,960 --> 00:33:02,880 Speaker 4: We lost that and then we appealed. Of course, each 543 00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,920 Speaker 4: time we got a ruling like that, we had to go. 544 00:33:06,120 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 4: I went and met with Mark and had to explain 545 00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 4: to him how we had lost. So by that time, 546 00:33:14,240 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 4: by the time we finished that litigation, it was nineteen 547 00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 4: ninety five. I had to say to Mark, this is it. 548 00:33:21,880 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 4: This is the last thing. There's nothing left to do. 549 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 4: You're stuck here. And we both I remember we held 550 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 4: hands and cried. Mark said to me, John, I'm not 551 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:39,880 Speaker 4: giving up. I do not accept this. There's got to 552 00:33:39,920 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 4: be some way. I'm not giving up. And I said, Mark, 553 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 4: there's only one thing that's going to get you out here. 554 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 4: It's going to be new evidence. We have to get 555 00:33:49,800 --> 00:33:56,720 Speaker 4: new evidence. And it looked really, really bleak until Jim 556 00:33:56,760 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 4: McCloskey and Centurion Ministries finally said we're going to take 557 00:34:02,200 --> 00:34:06,360 Speaker 4: the case. Jim McCloskey talked Randy Weaver into coming in 558 00:34:07,280 --> 00:34:11,960 Speaker 4: and making sworn statements that implicated him. That is, Randy 559 00:34:12,000 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 4: Weaver was willing to say. I was there at the 560 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,680 Speaker 4: after five when the shooting occurred, and I know Mark 561 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:20,520 Speaker 4: Shand and he wasn't there. 562 00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 3: Centario took a while to come full circle and accept 563 00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:26,839 Speaker 3: my case. They didn't accept it initially, you know, for 564 00:34:26,880 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 3: whatever reason, maybe they weren't fully convinced. I mean, their 565 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 3: reputable organization and their name carries a lot of weight, 566 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:34,960 Speaker 3: so I understand how they have to be one hundred 567 00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 3: percent convinced of your innocence before they take your case. 568 00:34:38,000 --> 00:34:40,759 Speaker 3: And as I mentioned, they did their due diligence investigate 569 00:34:40,800 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 3: the case before they literally told me we're accept officially 570 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:48,439 Speaker 3: accepting your case. And from the time they did that 571 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 3: to the time I was out was a very short 572 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 3: period of time. I think, you know, I could be 573 00:34:52,920 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 3: wrong in regards of the timeframe of how these things go, 574 00:34:55,960 --> 00:34:58,000 Speaker 3: but from the day they accepted my case, I think 575 00:34:58,040 --> 00:34:59,200 Speaker 3: I was out two years later. 576 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:03,760 Speaker 1: There was all so though, a sense of urgency, because 577 00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:07,239 Speaker 1: take me to the medical crisis you had. What year 578 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:09,240 Speaker 1: was it, and what happened? 579 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,000 Speaker 3: In two thousand and eight, I had an aneurysm, a 580 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:16,480 Speaker 3: subarachnoid hemorrhage, which is a bleeding of the brain. I 581 00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:18,799 Speaker 3: was sitting there and I thought it was it was 582 00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,520 Speaker 3: like an instant headache, almost like someone just hit me 583 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:23,920 Speaker 3: in ahead with a hammer, like it was instant. A 584 00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,560 Speaker 3: couple of guys that always come when the count planned 585 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,200 Speaker 3: prison and asked me, do I want to play chess? 586 00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:29,919 Speaker 3: It was three of us. We would play whoever lose, 587 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 3: get up and we would just play all day and 588 00:35:31,760 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 3: drink coffee and talk about sports and play chess. And 589 00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 3: we did that often. And they came to my door 590 00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:39,480 Speaker 3: and say, coming out to play chess, and I said, 591 00:35:39,480 --> 00:35:41,440 Speaker 3: give me a minute, and I had an headache. So 592 00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 3: they came back fifteen minutes, like, come on, where you at? 593 00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 3: Like we you know he's getting ready to lose this game. 594 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 3: Come on, you're next. The third time they came back 595 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 3: to the cell to ask me to come, I didn't 596 00:35:52,120 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 3: understand their words, so I was acutely aware something was 597 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 3: really screwed up. And I picked myself up and I 598 00:35:58,239 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 3: walked to the office's station and I couldn't talk. And 599 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 3: from what they say, my pupils were dilating, and they 600 00:36:03,719 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 3: you know, my eyes were rolling up my head. I 601 00:36:05,120 --> 00:36:07,960 Speaker 3: couldn't answer no questions. The shift commander came in and 602 00:36:07,960 --> 00:36:11,520 Speaker 3: he said, this guy is fuck something ain't right. He 603 00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:13,839 Speaker 3: don't even know his own name. And I woke up 604 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:16,440 Speaker 3: in the hospital and I found out it was an 605 00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 3: aneurism and almost died in prison. And the doctor came 606 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:21,600 Speaker 3: in and was explaining to me. I could hear him, 607 00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 3: but I couldn't respond that I had an aneurysm, and 608 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:27,960 Speaker 3: they was gonna take me downstairs and try to tie 609 00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 3: it off and stop the bleeding. And he, you know, 610 00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:33,640 Speaker 3: he was brutally honest with me. He said, Mark, almost 611 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 3: seventy percent of the people to have these don't live 612 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,600 Speaker 3: through them. So it's a good chance you may not 613 00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,880 Speaker 3: come upstairs from this, he said. He directed their officers, 614 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:43,840 Speaker 3: he said, you want to take some phone numbers and 615 00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,640 Speaker 3: call his family members immediately, because he may not come upstairs. 616 00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 3: And I told him to call those numbers. I don't 617 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 3: remember him doing it. And then I asked them for 618 00:36:52,080 --> 00:36:53,920 Speaker 3: a piece of paper and gave me an envelope, and 619 00:36:53,960 --> 00:37:08,840 Speaker 3: I wrote on the paper, man, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, 620 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:16,359 Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I wrote on the paper. I just wrote down, 621 00:37:17,320 --> 00:37:20,160 Speaker 3: please help me. And I told them to get that 622 00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:24,680 Speaker 3: paper to Jim McCloskey, because I can really remember like 623 00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:27,399 Speaker 3: thinking to myself, like, fuck, I'm gonna die in here 624 00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:30,239 Speaker 3: for a crimea and do like never mind going through this, 625 00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:33,279 Speaker 3: but I'm literally about to die in prison for a 626 00:37:33,360 --> 00:37:36,279 Speaker 3: crime and command and I could just recall begging them 627 00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:42,840 Speaker 3: to get that envelope to Jim McCloskey, and uh, I 628 00:37:43,000 --> 00:37:46,840 Speaker 3: remember waking up with just like twenty people in the 629 00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,719 Speaker 3: room just kissing me and crying and hugging me, and 630 00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,920 Speaker 3: the doctor kind of standing there and waiting for him 631 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 3: and explaining to him that it's a good chance I 632 00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:57,080 Speaker 3: may not come back upstairs and explain it to them, 633 00:37:57,560 --> 00:38:00,719 Speaker 3: you know what the subarachnoise hemorrhage was. And he said 634 00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 3: he's gonna take me downstairs, and I'm listening, and everyone 635 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 3: was crying, and they you know, they kind of just 636 00:38:05,840 --> 00:38:10,880 Speaker 3: whisked me downstairs, and you know, I made it through that. 637 00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:14,759 Speaker 3: But Jim McCloskey would later say that that was kind 638 00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,000 Speaker 3: of the catalyst for them to like say, like, we 639 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:19,960 Speaker 3: got to get this guy the fuck out of here. 640 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,040 Speaker 3: You know. I don't know if they particularly skipped any 641 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:27,920 Speaker 3: cases because of that, but they really started, you know, 642 00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 3: really accepting my cases and started to work it a 643 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:34,680 Speaker 3: little more, I would say because of that, because he 644 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:37,400 Speaker 3: explained to me, by that time, they was fully convinced 645 00:38:37,400 --> 00:38:39,000 Speaker 3: of my innocence and they didn't want to see me 646 00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 3: die in prison for a crime and didn't commit, never mind, 647 00:38:41,080 --> 00:38:42,759 Speaker 3: to spend the rest of my life in prison. So 648 00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 3: I think they worked a little hard on my case, 649 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 3: you know, than they normally would have. The letter got 650 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:51,800 Speaker 3: to him and he hasn't framed and he has it 651 00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 3: in his office now. If I'm not mistaken, and I 652 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,359 Speaker 3: think in my whole ordeal, the two things that stick 653 00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,680 Speaker 3: out to me most was that and my mom's screaming 654 00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:04,640 Speaker 3: in court, Like those are two things. They literally flashed 655 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 3: through my mind every fucking day. Every day, one of 656 00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:10,120 Speaker 3: the two of those flashed through my mind, you know, 657 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,000 Speaker 3: sometime once twice a week or something, I would just 658 00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,400 Speaker 3: I'll be in the car by myself and I'll just 659 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 3: ball out and cry like a baby and tears my 660 00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:22,279 Speaker 3: shirt to be wet, and I just cry about you know, 661 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,239 Speaker 3: I say shit, like what the hell did they do 662 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:26,640 Speaker 3: to me? They took a third in my life, and 663 00:39:26,960 --> 00:39:29,439 Speaker 3: you know, and I just wipe my face and going 664 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 3: about my day. And it still happens. You know. I 665 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:34,960 Speaker 3: don't know if you could say I feel sight for myself. 666 00:39:34,960 --> 00:39:37,080 Speaker 3: I don't know what it is, but every now and 667 00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,400 Speaker 3: then it still hits me. And I'm waiting for that 668 00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:42,040 Speaker 3: to dissipate and stop, but it hasn't stopped yet. So 669 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:44,919 Speaker 3: you know, I deal with it. You know, I deal 670 00:39:44,960 --> 00:39:47,160 Speaker 3: with it. I can't say I got over it. Yet 671 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,520 Speaker 3: I couldn't say that to you and be telling the 672 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:50,520 Speaker 3: truth because I didn't. 673 00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:57,319 Speaker 1: I can't imagine Mark, It's it's not just something that 674 00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: you get over. I mean, you had some extra dreamly 675 00:40:00,800 --> 00:40:06,440 Speaker 1: harrowing experiences. But eventually you did get out of prison 676 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:11,080 Speaker 1: and you were exonerated. The work of Centurion and your lawyer, 677 00:40:11,160 --> 00:40:14,600 Speaker 1: John Thompson, all their investigative work paid off and the 678 00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,279 Speaker 1: case was dismissed. That must have been such a happy day. 679 00:40:20,000 --> 00:40:22,759 Speaker 1: Can you tell me what it was like when the 680 00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,319 Speaker 1: judge finally said that you were free to go? Do 681 00:40:26,400 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 1: you remember the exact words he used? 682 00:40:30,239 --> 00:40:32,160 Speaker 3: He kept kind of short. He said, you're free to go. 683 00:40:34,200 --> 00:40:36,000 Speaker 3: He said you're free to go. I didn't believe it. 684 00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,279 Speaker 3: I'm looking at John and Linna like, what the hell 685 00:40:38,360 --> 00:40:40,560 Speaker 3: did you just say? Like I really couldn't believe he 686 00:40:40,600 --> 00:40:44,160 Speaker 3: said that, and you know, it kind of washed over me. 687 00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:48,080 Speaker 3: But you know, I remember my whole body just I 688 00:40:48,120 --> 00:40:51,080 Speaker 3: had pins and needles, you know, on my skin, like 689 00:40:51,760 --> 00:40:53,520 Speaker 3: and he said you're free to go, and everybody went 690 00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,000 Speaker 3: crazy again, just like they did twenty seven years before. 691 00:40:56,040 --> 00:40:59,000 Speaker 3: Before different reason is done. You know, he had to 692 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 3: calm the court down again, and John's trying to explain 693 00:41:02,680 --> 00:41:04,680 Speaker 3: to me, like, you know, you can go home. It's 694 00:41:04,800 --> 00:41:06,759 Speaker 3: like John had to explain to me like I was 695 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:08,680 Speaker 3: a three year old. I'm like, what the hell just happened? 696 00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:12,319 Speaker 3: Like he said you could go and yeah, I walked 697 00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 3: out of the courtroom free men. 698 00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 1: And at the point you were released, you had four grandkids, 699 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,120 Speaker 1: cracked and you had met them all while you were 700 00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:21,920 Speaker 1: in while you were in prison. 701 00:41:22,120 --> 00:41:25,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, they was all brought to me. His infants, Yeah, 702 00:41:25,920 --> 00:41:29,359 Speaker 3: little babies, yep. And I had four when I got 703 00:41:29,360 --> 00:41:30,160 Speaker 3: I have seven now. 704 00:41:30,760 --> 00:41:34,640 Speaker 1: So take me to your life today and the family 705 00:41:34,719 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 1: that you reconnected and reunited with that that Maya had 706 00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:42,680 Speaker 1: really capt together while you were in prison. 707 00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 3: I reconnected with my entire family and my immediate family 708 00:41:48,080 --> 00:41:49,920 Speaker 3: I see every day if I could, you know, I 709 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,040 Speaker 3: try to go see my grandkids every single day. It's 710 00:41:53,080 --> 00:41:55,000 Speaker 3: hard because I got a lot going on, but you know, 711 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,960 Speaker 3: we do the regular stuff, you know, get together for 712 00:41:58,040 --> 00:41:59,640 Speaker 3: Sunday dinner and all that kind of stuff. I have 713 00:41:59,800 --> 00:42:02,360 Speaker 3: more the house. And you know, when I went in, 714 00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:06,439 Speaker 3: I had three sons. They were literally two to one 715 00:42:06,480 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 3: and Quinton was almost a newborn. And when I got out, 716 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:16,279 Speaker 3: they were twenty nine, thirty and thirty one, so we 717 00:42:16,360 --> 00:42:19,919 Speaker 3: had a lot of reconnecting to do, and we've done that. 718 00:42:20,080 --> 00:42:22,640 Speaker 3: We're good. We're in a good place. And you know, 719 00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:24,960 Speaker 3: I've just been I've been really busy. I keep creating 720 00:42:24,960 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 3: problems for myself, like you know, uh, you know, I 721 00:42:27,800 --> 00:42:30,279 Speaker 3: watched my father with small business, you know, try to 722 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:33,160 Speaker 3: be an entrepreneur. I'm kind of following his footsteps. So 723 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:35,960 Speaker 3: every time I start a little project in it it's 724 00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:39,480 Speaker 3: off and running, and it's I find another issue for myself. So, 725 00:42:40,080 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 3: you know, my first business was a smoothie shop. I 726 00:42:44,360 --> 00:42:46,880 Speaker 3: opened a smoothie shop. It's been open for seven years now, 727 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,920 Speaker 3: and I currently have a coach store in a major 728 00:42:52,000 --> 00:42:55,520 Speaker 3: mall in Connecticut, and I'm opening my second smoothie shop 729 00:42:55,560 --> 00:43:00,440 Speaker 3: as well. So I'm constantly, you know, busy, and I 730 00:43:00,520 --> 00:43:03,279 Speaker 3: literally don't have a moment to breathe. But I'd take 731 00:43:03,320 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 3: that over the previous twenty seven years any day. 732 00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:08,879 Speaker 1: All right, we are getting to the end of our 733 00:43:08,920 --> 00:43:11,879 Speaker 1: interview here, and I want to thank you so much 734 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:15,120 Speaker 1: for being here and for sharing your stories. You know, 735 00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,960 Speaker 1: something we like to do is close this show by 736 00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:23,279 Speaker 1: giving the last word to our guest and Mark, you 737 00:43:23,440 --> 00:43:26,960 Speaker 1: have been through so much and you have had such 738 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: an amazing life experience. It would be my honor if 739 00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,479 Speaker 1: you would be willing to share your closing argument with us. 740 00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,839 Speaker 3: My story is, you know, as bad at it as 741 00:43:38,840 --> 00:43:42,480 Speaker 3: it is, it's not the end of this thing. What 742 00:43:42,680 --> 00:43:46,640 Speaker 3: happened to me and how it happened to me, and 743 00:43:46,680 --> 00:43:49,719 Speaker 3: the way it was allowed to happen to me is 744 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 3: a culture. What Francis Bloom did is a culture. It's 745 00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,560 Speaker 3: accepted all the way to the top. And I mean, 746 00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:02,080 Speaker 3: you know, you got judges overlooking case, overlooking trials. They 747 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:05,000 Speaker 3: see this stuff, they know something doesn't jive, and they 748 00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:09,120 Speaker 3: oversee the trial and watch it happen. Right, This is 749 00:44:09,120 --> 00:44:11,839 Speaker 3: a culture until and unless we start to address it. 750 00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:16,720 Speaker 3: Until and unless district attorneys are held accountable for knowingly 751 00:44:17,600 --> 00:44:21,120 Speaker 3: wrongfully getting a person convicted and watching them do three 752 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,360 Speaker 3: decades in jail knowing that their case wasn't a righteous 753 00:44:24,360 --> 00:44:29,240 Speaker 3: case until they literally put in handcuffs for that. Until 754 00:44:29,280 --> 00:44:32,839 Speaker 3: and unless that happens, this is going to happen a 755 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:33,399 Speaker 3: lot more. 756 00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,480 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'm your guest 757 00:44:42,480 --> 00:44:45,960 Speaker 1: host Lauren Bright Pacheco I'd like to thank our executive 758 00:44:45,960 --> 00:44:50,239 Speaker 1: producers Jason Flam and Kevin Wards. Our senior producer this 759 00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:54,000 Speaker 1: episode is Jackie Paully and our producers are Lyla Robinson 760 00:44:54,160 --> 00:44:58,360 Speaker 1: and Jeff Cliburn. Our editor is Rexandra Guidi. The music 761 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:01,440 Speaker 1: in this production is by thre ever time OSCAR nominated 762 00:45:01,480 --> 00:45:05,160 Speaker 1: composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow us on Instagram 763 00:45:05,280 --> 00:45:09,279 Speaker 1: at Wrongful Conviction, on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast, and 764 00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,719 Speaker 1: on Twitter at wrong Conviction, as well as Lava for 765 00:45:12,800 --> 00:45:16,320 Speaker 1: Good On all three platforms. You can find me online 766 00:45:16,480 --> 00:45:19,600 Speaker 1: at Lauren Bright Pacheco, and you can find my podcasts 767 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: Murder and Oregon and Murder in Illinois wherever you listen 768 00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 1: to podcast and my latest Murder in Miami, is out 769 00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:30,960 Speaker 1: this January. Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for 770 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:43,200 Speaker 1: Good Podcasts in association with Signal Company Number one. I 771 00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:46,840 Speaker 1: hope you enjoyed this episode of Wrongful Conviction. As regular 772 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,280 Speaker 1: listeners will know, the show is usually hosted by Jason Flahm, 773 00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,400 Speaker 1: but this fall he invited an amazing group of guest 774 00:45:53,440 --> 00:45:56,759 Speaker 1: hosts to bring their own talents and perspectives to the interview. 775 00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,239 Speaker 1: I am honored to be closing out this season, which 776 00:46:00,239 --> 00:46:04,440 Speaker 1: has included hosts like Ear hustles ERLN Woods, legal experts 777 00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:08,120 Speaker 1: Chris Fabrikant and Laura and I Ryder, author Gilbert King 778 00:46:08,320 --> 00:46:12,040 Speaker 1: and Xaneries, Patrick Parsley and Jimmy Dennis. You can listen 779 00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:15,840 Speaker 1: to all fifteen guest hosted episodes in the Wrongful Conviction 780 00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:20,880 Speaker 1: Podcast Feed starting January ninth. Pulitzer Prize winning journalist Maggie 781 00:46:20,920 --> 00:46:24,560 Speaker 1: Freeling is back for a second season. Wrongful Conviction with 782 00:46:24,640 --> 00:46:28,680 Speaker 1: Maggie Freeling features heartbreaking and inspiring stories of people who 783 00:46:28,680 --> 00:46:31,799 Speaker 1: have been incarcerated for crimes they didn't commit, told in 784 00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:35,719 Speaker 1: Maggie's unique personal style. Season two will shine a light 785 00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:39,320 Speaker 1: on cases of wrongfully convicted women, a cause that Maggie 786 00:46:39,360 --> 00:46:42,320 Speaker 1: is passionate about and one that doesn't get the attention 787 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:45,880 Speaker 1: it deserves. This is a must listen show for anyone 788 00:46:45,960 --> 00:46:49,880 Speaker 1: interested in the real life impact of the criminal justice system. 789 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:54,200 Speaker 1: Listen every Monday in the Wrongful Conviction Podcast Feed starting 790 00:46:54,360 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 1: January ninth.