Speaker 1: It's very seldom I run into someone who I really
Speaker 1: think is just kind of a piece of shit. I
Speaker 1: go for the most part, everybody's just at their job,
Speaker 1: whether they're wildly famous or not, and they're just trying
Speaker 1: to do the job and then go home and hang
Speaker 1: out with their family. It's just kind of our universal situation.
Speaker 2: Well you know what that means, Rory, that you're the
Speaker 2: piece of.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, shit.
Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to SNAPO, your favorite podcast about history's
Speaker 2: greatest screw ups, or, if we're being completely honest, a
Speaker 2: show about the spectacular hubris of humanity, the epic disasters
Speaker 2: it creates, and the lessons we like to pretend we
Speaker 2: can learn from them. I'm your host ed Helms, and
Speaker 2: I guess today. Is a very funny comedian, actor, writer,
Speaker 2: and podcast host. He released his first comedy album, Dilation,
Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, and pumped out not one, not three,
Speaker 2: but six different stand up specials, the most recent of
Speaker 2: which Religion, Sex, and a Few Things in Between, you
Speaker 2: can find on HBO Max. He's appeared in a variety
Speaker 2: of film and television programs, with a particularly standout performance
Speaker 2: opposite Rose Byrne in Apple TV's Physical, which is a
Speaker 2: fucking awesome show by the way, Nic Yes, indeed, and
Speaker 2: he said to appear in a new ABC show called
Speaker 2: Do You Want Kids? And I think I also just
Speaker 2: saw a trailer that had you in it for my
Speaker 2: buddy Steve Carell's new show Rooster. So please welcome to
Speaker 2: the pod the amazing Rory Scovel.
Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me.
Speaker 1: I I've got to say, Ed, I have waited to
Speaker 1: see you face to face because this was the only
Speaker 1: way to tell you this. But Vacation is potentially one
Speaker 1: of the funniest movies that I have seen in I
Speaker 1: do not I don't know how long, but I have
Speaker 1: not seen a comedy where literally every five minutes I
Speaker 1: sort of need to pause the movie to collect myself.
Speaker 1: And I have shown so many people that movie and
Speaker 1: I tell them, you will cry laughing, And it's so true.
Speaker 1: I love that movie so much.
Speaker 2: You were this You're gonna make me cry right now.
Speaker 2: You're really touching me. And I'll tell you why, because
Speaker 2: I and the writer directors of that movie have long
Speaker 2: felt that that movie like, we are so proud of it.
Speaker 2: It's a movie we loved making, we love the product
Speaker 2: and it just didn't capture the audience that we that
Speaker 2: we hoped for. And so when I get these little
Speaker 2: nuggets of affirmation like that, I really appreciate it. That
Speaker 2: really means a lot.
Speaker 3: You guys should absolutely be proud of it.
Speaker 1: But just given the fact that it's not comedically predictable,
Speaker 1: it's not hacky, it's not like the cringey comedy that
Speaker 1: you can find out there, which is fine, the fact
Speaker 1: that it actually is just so moments of that car
Speaker 1: is so stupid.
Speaker 2: The car is so funny. There's a keyfob with a
Speaker 2: million buttons on it, and Christina Applegate goes, is that
Speaker 2: a swastika? And I just say, yeah, we won't use that.
Speaker 2: What is that? What? Uh?
Speaker 3: It's great?
Speaker 2: All right, Well enough about Hey, we're here to talk
Speaker 2: about you. First of all, I've actually known you a
Speaker 2: long time, not well, we've bumped into each other over
Speaker 2: the years. But I have a very borderline offensive question
Speaker 2: for you, which is do you say your last name
Speaker 2: Scovell or Scovell.
Speaker 1: I say Scovell, which, okay, I'm going to go and
Speaker 1: say it's correct, but that's my versions of it.
Speaker 2: Right, Scovelley Skivel good because I am Southern, so I
Speaker 2: have all these little like contractions I say. I say
Speaker 2: things like like like my friend Eleanor, I say Eleanor
Speaker 2: and Scoville and that sort of thing. So uh, but
Speaker 2: I'm always conscious that I'm probably doing it wrong as well.
Speaker 2: Where are you from? Originally the South?
Speaker 3: From South Carolina, Greenville? Oh?
Speaker 2: Right on.
Speaker 3: Eleanor is exactly.
Speaker 2: Right, even though it's spelled with an o's pronounced with
Speaker 2: an I or even an apostrophe an apostrophe are eleanor Eleanor?
Speaker 3: Yeah, that art comes in quick.
Speaker 2: You're rapidly becoming an American treasure. And I.
Speaker 3: Love the best podcast I've ever been and we should
Speaker 3: just do this.
Speaker 2: This is called we just just compliment each other with
Speaker 2: voice are you? That's what this is called. No, but
Speaker 2: it's fun when I have people on that I think
Speaker 2: are awesome like you, so thank you. You have a
Speaker 2: new podcast. Also, you're getting into this space starting to
Speaker 2: horn in on my space. That's right a little bit.
Speaker 2: What is it? Tell me more?
Speaker 1: It's a show called Crime List. I do it with
Speaker 1: the journalist Josh Dean and yeah, he basically not so
Speaker 1: unlike this show just in the world of like crime
Speaker 1: stories and stupid criminals throughout history and throughout the world.
Speaker 1: Josh kind of reads me a story about can you
Speaker 1: believe this bone head? You know, criminal story? And I'm
Speaker 1: just hearing it for the first time and commenting on it,
Speaker 1: and I love it. I'm shocked every time that I mean,
Speaker 1: I'm not shocked, and I am shocked that ninety five
Speaker 1: percent of the stories are from Florida.
Speaker 3: But that's just the reality of it.
Speaker 1: But Yeah, it's out now and it's been super fun
Speaker 1: to do, and Josh is a great co host cool.
Speaker 2: I am psyched to check that out. And it's also
Speaker 2: perfect segue into what we're about to do. I'm about
Speaker 2: to talk to you about this snafu, and in this
Speaker 2: particular case, it is also a crime perfect Have you
Speaker 2: seen the movie Wall Street. I've seen the movie Wall Street, Okay,
Speaker 2: with Michael Douglas and Charlie Sheene, Darryl Hannah Oliver Stone movie.
Speaker 2: It's phenomenal. So the guy that Michael Douglas plays in
Speaker 2: that movie, who's like a corporate raider and like a
Speaker 2: Wall Street tycoon. He's based loosely, but he is based
Speaker 2: on a real guy. Does this ring any bells for.
Speaker 3: You, No, I don't think. I don't think I was
Speaker 3: aware of this.
Speaker 2: No, Okay, So this is a Wall Street legend of sorts.
Speaker 2: It's just one of those really epic stories about a
Speaker 2: man who rows from rags to riches and then plummeted
Speaker 2: from riches to an orange jumpsuit. Our man of the
Speaker 2: hour is Ivan Bowski, and he was considered widely thought
Speaker 2: to be the inspiration for Michael Douglas's very slippery eighties
Speaker 2: villain Gordon Gecko. We have a we have a photo
Speaker 2: of mister Boski here.
Speaker 3: It just seems like.
Speaker 2: I think that I've seen other pictures of him where
Speaker 2: his eyes look normal. So I'm just gonna guess that's
Speaker 2: a weird He's either he's either winking or or it's
Speaker 2: just one of those weird, weird moments that the cameras get.
Speaker 2: But there's a slickness to this guy. And look at
Speaker 2: his skin. Hey, he's got game show host vibes.
Speaker 3: He does.
Speaker 2: He kind of looks like he'd be fun to hang
Speaker 2: out have a beer with, I'll be honest.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 2: Well, we're gonna learn why he might not be somebody
Speaker 2: that you wanted to hang out with. Also, funny funny footnote.
Speaker 2: He's wearing a black suit and a white shirt in
Speaker 2: this picture, and that that was his go to every
Speaker 2: single day. He and someone asked him at one point,
Speaker 2: why do you wear the same suit and every day?
Speaker 2: And he just said, I have enough big decisions to
Speaker 2: make every day. This is one I can just take
Speaker 2: off the list, which is funny because Einstein is also
Speaker 2: famous for that. Albert Einstein always wore the same suit
Speaker 2: and shirt and for the same reason. It's just like
Speaker 2: take it off your plate, right.
Speaker 1: It makes sense, it makes it. I don't know if
Speaker 1: you do that. I don't do it for those reasons.
Speaker 1: When I heard the same clothes, it's clearly like a
Speaker 1: lazy sort.
Speaker 2: Of When I hear the same clothes every day, it's problematic.
Speaker 2: It's a bit of a red flag. It happens that
Speaker 2: you explain right. Here is Michael Douglas's famous piece of
Speaker 2: dialogue from Wall Street. He's giving a big speech to
Speaker 2: stockholders meeting for a big company, and he's walking the
Speaker 2: aisle with a microphone, and he's tons of gravitas and
Speaker 2: he's just saying, greed, for lack of a better word,
Speaker 2: is good. Greed is right greed works read, clarifies, cuts
Speaker 2: through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeaheah.
Speaker 1: I think we know now the state of our politics
Speaker 1: that he was right, it's going great, it's going so good.
Speaker 2: He's all right. What he left out is and all
Speaker 2: of that sucks, and that the consequences of all this
Speaker 2: is not good.
Speaker 3: The endgame of this is devastating.
Speaker 2: Exactly, So today we will find out what that spirit
Speaker 2: conjured throughout the eighties. Of course, your show Physical takes
Speaker 2: place in the eighties. How do you how would you
Speaker 2: capture the spirit of the eighties? How would you describe it?
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost a good I feel like that.
Speaker 1: That's why there's something to his speech in that movie,
Speaker 1: because it's almost like the eighties was like you can
Speaker 1: get up and you can create your own future, and
Speaker 1: greed and wanting to do it and having to step
Speaker 1: over people to pull it off is a is a
Speaker 1: great way, is a great start. And then the other
Speaker 1: side of it feels like Cindy Lapper and Madonna, which
Speaker 1: I feel like I identify with more in my spirit
Speaker 1: of what I like to envision of the eighties.
Speaker 3: But as far as business, yeah, I think it was
Speaker 3: like that.
Speaker 2: Also, I'm just going to say a word that I
Speaker 2: associate with the eighties cocaine.
Speaker 3: Yeah, lots of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that that's what crossed the aisles. That's where
Speaker 1: the art community and common ground.
Speaker 2: Amen. All right, Well, let's get into Ivanboski a little bit.
Speaker 2: He starts out modestly. Born in nineteen thirty seventy, grew
Speaker 2: up in post war Detroit, the son of a Russian
Speaker 2: immigrant who ran delis and old school brass railbars, which
Speaker 2: is those blue collar taverns fueled by rye breads, cigarettes
Speaker 2: and cheap liquor and a little fun Detroit footnote. Bosky
Speaker 2: attended Mumford High School. Does that mean anything to you?
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 2: Mumford High School later achieved pop culture immortality thanks to
Speaker 2: Eddie Murphy's gray sweatshirt in Beverly Hills cop Oh yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: he is a Mumford sweatshirt. I love that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Well, so Boski actually went there. From the sounds of it,
Speaker 2: Ivan strove for more. There's a peculiar quote from his
Speaker 2: second cousin, found in a Time magazine article. He had
Speaker 2: this capacity for single mindedness. He drove himself mercilessly as
Speaker 2: far as exercise goes.
Speaker 1: That's the most unrelatable sentence I've ever heard.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes on to talk about how he does
Speaker 2: hundreds of push ups, which is odd, but I guess
Speaker 2: speaks to like a driven sort of character as a
Speaker 2: young man. Have you ever watched someone with incredible focus
Speaker 2: and drive and just thought that's really before realizing that's
Speaker 2: the energy that also is wrecking everything.
Speaker 1: Yes, but also they almost seemed you can't picture them
Speaker 1: laughing or saying something originally funny, or you just they
Speaker 1: almost feel like carbon copies of carbon copies of people.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't understand that drive.
Speaker 2: It's a little bit of lawn musk sarc right. Yeah,
Speaker 2: it feels like he was this incredibly inspiring, kind of
Speaker 2: relentless innovator and then whoa, whoa, it just went so yeah,
Speaker 2: so far over the the line.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: At some point, Yeah, the ambition gets taken away or
Speaker 1: just takes off way too far. I also think some kids,
Speaker 1: speaking of the eighties, I think you watched movies. I
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of us that saw something like
Speaker 1: The Karate Kid and wanted to be Daniel LaRusso, and
Speaker 1: then some people were like, no, I want to be Johnny.
Speaker 1: I want to be a blondeheaded dude who's clearly a
Speaker 1: bad guy. And it's you see that in their lives
Speaker 1: that's so interesting.
Speaker 2: I mean, I definitely when I saw those guys jumping
Speaker 2: motorcycles around in their skeleton Halloween costumes, I was like,
Speaker 2: I definitely want to be that. But when Daniel LaRusso
Speaker 2: like kicks him in the face with the swan kick,
Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, that's who I want.
Speaker 3: You're like, that's the guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: While in school, Boski married Sima Silberstein in nineteen sixty two,
Speaker 2: daughter of real estate lawyer and hotel tycoon Ben Silberstein.
Speaker 2: We could probably actually do a whole story on Silberstein.
Speaker 2: He is fascinating in and of and himself. But here's
Speaker 2: a quick anecdote. Allegedly, when he was younger, he was
Speaker 2: turned away from the Beverly Hills Hotel. On a subsequent
Speaker 2: visit with his youngest daughter, Muriel, she exclaimed that he
Speaker 2: thought he should simply buy the place, and so he did. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I guess that's kind of a fuck you. He just
Speaker 2: bought the hotel. For five point five million dollars in
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four. Oh my god, that's that's just over
Speaker 2: sixty six million today, and I think it's worth a
Speaker 2: lot more than that. Safe to say, Boski was well
Speaker 2: aware of this class differential he was marrying into and
Speaker 2: really wanted to prove himself. After graduating from the Detroit
Speaker 2: College of Law, he drifted through a series of soul
Speaker 2: sucking gigs law clerk, accountant, kind of rinse and repeat.
Speaker 2: None of it's sticking, none of its satisfying. Then his
Speaker 2: father died in nineteen sixty four, Boski took over the
Speaker 2: family's last brass Rail bar and rebranded it La Club
Speaker 2: a Go Go, and it brought in topless dancers and
Speaker 2: made it a kind of tawdry, salatious affair, and of
Speaker 2: course it was bankrupt within two years.
Speaker 3: The brass Rail Bar is so fun.
Speaker 1: Every time I hear that, I think of Rudy when
Speaker 1: his dad threw him and his brother out of the
Speaker 1: bar when all the guys were off work at the
Speaker 1: mill and they were just drinking at the bar, and
Speaker 1: then Rudy was sean Aston was doing something and his
Speaker 1: dad told the owner to throw them out. It lives
Speaker 1: in my mind forever because I thought, why don't you
Speaker 1: just tell your son.
Speaker 3: To leave the bar? Why does the owner have to.
Speaker 1: Now get involved throwing your kid out of the bar.
Speaker 1: But I always picture that five PM blue collar guys
Speaker 1: in their their you know, destroyed clothing from working at
Speaker 1: the mill, just having beers and it just seems so cozy.
Speaker 2: Now introduce like like a like a burlesque dancer to
Speaker 2: that vibey. And it was not successful, this one did.
Speaker 2: It went bankrupt in two years. Boski, at the time,
Speaker 2: was not exactly happy. His father in law would constantly
Speaker 2: let him know how unhappy he was with his daughter's choices.
Speaker 2: He nicknamed Ivan Boski Ivan a bum and openly referred
Speaker 2: to him as an air dwell who would amount to nothing,
Speaker 2: which is kind of kind of a brutal way to
Speaker 2: talk to your son in law.
Speaker 1: I feel like Ivan Brokski was right there for the
Speaker 1: taking anyone with the bum.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh gosh, yeah, you're going to be a tough
Speaker 2: father in law.
Speaker 1: I'm excited just that name. Yeah, for the nicknames, this is.
Speaker 2: An interesting one. How much of a person's identity or
Speaker 2: you know, ambition gets shaped by all the people shouting
Speaker 2: at them that they're a failure.
Speaker 3: Of course, my god, absolutely.
Speaker 1: I mean that's like the core of representation in entertainment
Speaker 1: and how you're represented like in entertainment and who you
Speaker 1: are that you you know, when you start to identify
Speaker 1: with people who look like you or you feel like
Speaker 1: you relate to, Like, that's what inspires the idea that
Speaker 1: you think, well, I'm just meant to be a failure
Speaker 1: or I can be a success, you know for sure.
Speaker 1: But you're right, like criticism like that it starts to
Speaker 1: become your reality.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it can either it can either destroy someone or
Speaker 2: like give them like very intense fuel.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: And uh and I would I would also say that's
Speaker 2: probably not like good fuel, healthy fuel.
Speaker 3: Fuel.
Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's like I want to be a success,
Speaker 2: not because I want to like have nice vacations with
Speaker 2: my family. It's because I want to make this other
Speaker 2: person feel like shit.
Speaker 1: Yeah, because buy a hotel when they refuse service, that
Speaker 1: really puts me in my place. I couldn't do that
Speaker 1: at a gas station or a go to a fast
Speaker 1: food place and they disrespected me.
Speaker 3: I'd be like, you just wait, I'm gonna buy this place.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna need about twenty years just to kind of
Speaker 1: get the green together, but.
Speaker 2: Also see well. Needless to say, Boski was extremely motivated,
Speaker 2: in part probably to best his father in law. He
Speaker 2: and Seema moved to the Big Apple. Now Rory, that
Speaker 2: is a Wall Street term for New York City.
Speaker 3: Okay, you said we were going to learn today, You
Speaker 3: said that.
Speaker 2: The Big Apple. Make a note of it. Yeah, Now,
Speaker 2: I guess father in law Silberstein was at least kind
Speaker 2: enough to put them up in a Park Avenue apartment.
Speaker 2: He even bankrolled Boski's first company with seven hundred thousand dollars.
Speaker 2: This was nineteen seventy five and Ivan had found his
Speaker 2: passion and promise on Wall Street. He was an incredibly
Speaker 2: hard worker, allegedly clocking twenty hour work days. This is
Speaker 2: an interesting thing that sort of emerges in a lot
Speaker 2: of biographical material about him. He never ate. He would
Speaker 2: go to these big you know, functions and meals or
Speaker 2: like host big things dinner parties and this and that,
Speaker 2: and like no one ever saw him eat. He would
Speaker 2: have like a grape or like little nibbles of things.
Speaker 2: And he was like as we mentioned before, relentlessly working
Speaker 2: out just like a very intense guy and also never slept.
Speaker 2: It's just one of those weird vampire dudes who can
Speaker 2: like like I have my sleep tracker, and if it's
Speaker 2: like less than eight hours, I'm just like, oh God,
Speaker 2: this is going to be a hard day.
Speaker 3: Yeah, your day's ruined.
Speaker 2: Sorry. I go into the day already like, oh, I'm
Speaker 2: on half a tank guy, And.
Speaker 1: You're like, if I could just get three pastries in
Speaker 1: my body, I bet I could find some.
Speaker 3: Fuel in there.
Speaker 2: Ivan Boski was very dedicated to sort of carving out
Speaker 2: his place on Wall Street. He was not a traditional investor.
Speaker 2: He worked in a space known as arbitrage. So traditional
Speaker 2: investing is like planting a tree. You buy a stock
Speaker 2: and you believe in the company, and you hold it
Speaker 2: for a long time, believing that this company will will grow.
Speaker 2: Stockbrokers will research companies in order to sort of know
Speaker 2: which companies have the best chances of growing and accumulating value.
Speaker 2: Arbitrage is a different kind of investor. It's all about timing.
Speaker 2: It's fast and it's fast in and fast out, So
Speaker 2: you buy something that you think is temporarily underpriced and
Speaker 2: then sell it the minute the price corrects. So it
Speaker 2: kind of works like this, you would find a small
Speaker 2: company something that has like a sort of special or
Speaker 2: obscure value. Maybe it's a product or a service or
Speaker 2: an expertise of some kind, but it's something that a
Speaker 2: bigger company would want. Then you figure out that a
Speaker 2: takeover buy this bigger company or any number of bigger
Speaker 2: companies is likely before the public catches onto this, and
Speaker 2: you buy a ton of shares of this small company
Speaker 2: while the stock price is relatively low. Then when this
Speaker 2: takeover happens and is announced, the stock price jumps and
Speaker 2: you immediately sell. Yeah, it has nothing, there's no loyalty,
Speaker 2: there's no belief in the company. You're just trying to
Speaker 2: spot the moment when the price is about to change
Speaker 2: and be there first. It's one of the most risky
Speaker 2: kinds of investing, and at the time, most arbitrage players
Speaker 2: were very cautious, small bets, careful math, lots of hedging.
Speaker 2: But Bowski was not built this way. He went He
Speaker 2: just went big. He pushed harder, he took huge risks
Speaker 2: that others wouldn't touch. And as the seventies sort of
Speaker 2: turned into the eighties, this all of his bullheaded bluster
Speaker 2: turned him into a force of nature. He was also
Speaker 2: incredibly smart and gifted at you know, market analysis, and
Speaker 2: somehow Ivan Boski just kept crushing it.
Speaker 1: Every time you say Bosky, I only picture Michael Douglas anyways,
Speaker 1: eating honestly, just eating the raw meat that he gets
Speaker 1: at that restaurant in there.
Speaker 2: That movie was so good. I need to rewatch that.
Speaker 1: I mean when he stands on the balcony at the
Speaker 1: apartment and Charlie Sheen just yells out to the city,
Speaker 1: who am I. Yeah, It's like we've all been there.
Speaker 2: Been there? Did you live in New York City? Anyway?
Speaker 3: I lived there.
Speaker 1: For four years and then what when was that? I
Speaker 1: was there o seven to twenty eleven.
Speaker 2: Right after me, I was there ninety six to two
Speaker 2: thousand's yeah seven.
Speaker 1: Basically I was there when I lived there. I was
Speaker 1: at all those Dell Closed marathons watching you guys that
Speaker 1: those that won that venue was incredible. But those are
Speaker 1: some of my happiest memories from comedy, just going and
Speaker 1: watching insane improv at the Dell Close marathon.
Speaker 3: Yes, like three in the morning.
Speaker 2: Yes, it was so it felt so punk rock, right,
Speaker 2: and that was like, That's what I loved about it
Speaker 2: is like there were there were a lot of like, like,
Speaker 2: I've always been pretty nerdy and like clean cut, but
Speaker 2: like I value punk rock, I value the the the
Speaker 2: weirdos and the people on the margins. I just think
Speaker 2: that they're such a marvelous part of our culture and society.
Speaker 2: And then you have an institution like the Upright Citizens
Speaker 2: Brigade that that just brings it all together somehow, And
Speaker 2: you have like buttoned up comedians performing next to like
Speaker 2: just the wildest performance art Whack a Do's, and it's
Speaker 2: just pure joy.
Speaker 3: I like, I agree.
Speaker 2: We're now in the midst of the mid eighties. We're
Speaker 2: talking lycra leggings, Tom Selix mustache, and everyone's asking where's
Speaker 2: the beef because of the Wendy's commercial. Yeah, it was Wendy's.
Speaker 2: Oh I don't know, is that where it came from?
Speaker 2: Where's the beef? Yeah, it's like a little old lady
Speaker 2: opening up her hamburger and it's like a tiny little
Speaker 2: meat patty. In nineteen eighty one, the Ivan F. Boski Corp.
Speaker 2: Was rolling in it, making more than one hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty million dollars in profits from short runs on CBS,
Speaker 2: Gulf Oil and Konaco. According to Vanity Fair, one hundred
Speaker 2: and fifty million dollars was more money than Ivan's father
Speaker 2: in law ever had. Perfect So I guess some nice
Speaker 2: warm comfort there.
Speaker 1: That's aolution of the human spirit right there. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: just got it above that number.
Speaker 2: Oh, I just got a win. I just got a
Speaker 2: win at whatever cost to my soul. It's fine. So
Speaker 2: Ivan is raking it in. By the spring of nineteen
Speaker 2: eighty five, he was reportedly the highest paid broker on
Speaker 2: Wall Street, with a net worth of over two hundred
Speaker 2: and eighty million dollars, which is nearly eight hundred and
Speaker 2: forty million in today's dollars, which I just want to
Speaker 2: point out, eight hundred and forty million dollars, like in
Speaker 2: today's money is not considered, you know, the the crazy wealth,
Speaker 2: the crazy way you have to be a billionaire to
Speaker 2: be a crazy wealthy. And that's a comment on like
Speaker 2: in the eighties, as much money and excess as these
Speaker 2: guys are engaging in, we're still not in a culture
Speaker 2: with the wealth gap that we have today. Yeah, right,
Speaker 2: the wealth gap has just like exploded exploded since the eighties.
Speaker 2: But it's just interesting to me that we're talking about
Speaker 2: these guys as if they're Jeff Bezos or or Elon
Speaker 2: Musk or Zuckerberg, but they're not even close to that
Speaker 2: by comparison.
Speaker 1: And yet still titans in their own in the daytime. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the day they were that. And I think it's that
Speaker 1: trickle down economics of the eighties where people are like, now,
Speaker 1: give all this money, give it up here, and you'll
Speaker 1: get it back.
Speaker 3: It'll come back to you.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you mean, Like that wealth gap
Speaker 1: is massive now, and I think there's something to the
Speaker 1: eighties of like, yeah, this is what really the lit
Speaker 1: the fire.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Boski held the spot on the Forbes four hundred list
Speaker 2: of America's wealthiest people. He ran his firm with real intensity, ferocity,
Speaker 2: orchestrating like a real high pressure operation of roughly one
Speaker 2: hundred employees. His self promotion was legendary. He hired his
Speaker 2: own PR firm to help promote himself. His self promotion
Speaker 2: tour included press for his his own book, written with
Speaker 2: the aid of journalist Jeffrey G. Madrick, called merger Mania Arbitrage,
Speaker 2: Wall Street's best kept money making secret, and uh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you know that big old shady eating grin right on
Speaker 2: the front.
Speaker 3: It's so funny, like a book like that.
Speaker 1: You're like, just like just considering where I grew up
Speaker 1: in South Carolina, Like my dad worked at the post office.
Speaker 1: Is like, is anybody in the post office you read this?
Speaker 1: Money Mania Army, Yeah, merger merger Mania, merger.
Speaker 3: Mania Yeah, book cup out Walls, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I feel like you just explaining investing in companies, getting
Speaker 1: in and getting out is probably the biggest lesson I've
Speaker 1: gotten in my.
Speaker 3: Street.
Speaker 1: What it even is to me, it's just a circus
Speaker 1: that I can't understand.
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, I find I find it all very
Speaker 2: like brain mangling. In nineteen eighty six, Boski was invited
Speaker 2: to provide a commencement speech at the University of California
Speaker 2: at Berkeley has School of Business. And this is where
Speaker 2: that speech that was the inspiration for Gordon Gecko's infamous
Speaker 2: framing was derived. But it's not exactly the same as
Speaker 2: Gordon Gecko's. What he said is greed is all right.
Speaker 2: By the way, I want you to know that I
Speaker 2: think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still
Speaker 2: feel good about yourself. It sounds like a cult leader.
Speaker 2: It's weird, you know what it has echoes of this
Speaker 2: this uh, this, all this stuff emerging from both the
Speaker 2: Christian nationalist movement and Elon Musk where it's like empathy
Speaker 2: is bad.
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, this.
Speaker 2: Is saying the same thing in the sort of inverse.
Speaker 2: Greed is because self interest is good. It's very and
Speaker 2: randy in that way, like it's just.
Speaker 1: It's very Uh, discard the seven deadly sins and move on.
Speaker 1: Greed is okay, It's fine, right, fine, right right, Yeah.
Speaker 2: The Bible literally tells you that this is a deadly sin.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one saying this. This is destructive to you
Speaker 1: personally and to all of people. But if you want
Speaker 1: to have an elevator in your house, you gotta have
Speaker 1: a little bit of it.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: This is the I love the last sentence. You can
Speaker 2: be greedy and still feel good about yourself. That's awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Okay, So all of this is going on, and all
Speaker 2: of a sudden record scratch, just months after riding high,
Speaker 2: it all unraveled. On November fourteenth, nineteen eighty six, ivan
Speaker 2: Boski pleaded guilty to conspiring to file false trading records,
Speaker 2: which is a complicated way of saying insider trading. Okay, basically,
Speaker 2: Time Magazine put his grinning face on the cover and
Speaker 2: dubbed him Ivan the Terrible, which is a little derivative,
Speaker 2: but it's.
Speaker 3: Still better than Ivan the Bum from the Father.
Speaker 2: Sure not, and not as good as Ivan broke Ski Right,
Speaker 2: that's right. One minute this guy is Wall Street Royalty,
Speaker 2: the next he's a cautionary tale and the high roller
Speaker 2: era was over. He is headed to prison. Do you
Speaker 2: think that repeated success always turns people into egomaniacs or
Speaker 2: like just disasters? Is it possible to remain humble?
Speaker 1: I think it's possible to remain humble, base done. I
Speaker 1: think how much you've acquired as a person before you've
Speaker 1: reached that success. For instance, I think a lot of
Speaker 1: people in our industry who find fame or fortune later
Speaker 1: in their careers.
Speaker 3: Tend to be.
Speaker 1: So much a little more chill and fully aware that
Speaker 1: life is fickled and it can go away. And yesterday
Speaker 1: I was doing this job and today I'm grateful I've
Speaker 1: got this one. But I think when you have it
Speaker 1: at a young age, and nothing against those people that
Speaker 1: get at a young age because they are missing that
Speaker 1: sort of educational step. I think a lot of times
Speaker 1: they can come off as awful people, and maybe it's
Speaker 1: something happens and they turn a corner and they change.
Speaker 1: But you definitely see it in people who come from
Speaker 1: a certain background. I think it's just learning the value
Speaker 1: of things, for sure. But I think people can remain humble.
Speaker 1: I tell people all the time that, like friends back
Speaker 1: home or people ask me if I've worked with someone,
Speaker 1: they always want to know if someone's a jerk.
Speaker 3: I go, I gotta be honest.
Speaker 1: It's very seldom I run into someone who I really
Speaker 1: think is just kind of a piece of shit. I go,
Speaker 1: for the most part, everybody's just at their job, whether
Speaker 1: they're wildly famous or not, and they're just trying to
Speaker 1: do the job and then go home and hang out
Speaker 1: with their family. It's just kind of our universal situation.
Speaker 2: Well you know what that means, Rory, What that means
Speaker 2: you're the piece of shit?
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Shit, if you.
Speaker 2: Can't actually see how much other people are a piece
Speaker 2: of shit, it means you're a giant piece of shit.
Speaker 1: Ahuck. I just thought they were so fun. I looked
Speaker 1: up to all of them.
Speaker 2: I mean, our industry obviously is a very hot crucible
Speaker 2: of all of this stuff, But I think also just
Speaker 2: looking into the business world, you know, and seeing a
Speaker 2: special these these tech modern tech titans and you're Jeff
Speaker 2: Bezos's and so forth, it's really amazing. You can chart
Speaker 2: their values and their appearance, yeah, their physical appearance, how
Speaker 2: it changes over time with their power and wealth, and
Speaker 2: it's it's very disheartening, you know. The the notion that
Speaker 2: absolute power corrupts absolutely really seems to hold a lot
Speaker 2: of water.
Speaker 3: Yes, one hundred percent. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And also you do wonder, like in the origin story
Speaker 1: of these billionaires or tech titans, you do wonder like,
Speaker 1: are they coming from a place of like sort of
Speaker 1: like ivan, like was it vengeance where they like, Oh,
Speaker 1: I'll show this world I have value and I'll become
Speaker 1: this because I think the world has treated me this way.
Speaker 1: There's such an irony to then becoming a billionaire who
Speaker 1: kind of in many ways runs the world and not
Speaker 1: having compassion for who might also be what you once were,
Speaker 1: but instead being like, no, those people are trash.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like what, well that's what you right?
Speaker 2: We have pictures of you, yeah, we have with pictures
Speaker 2: of Jeff Bezos as the sweetest little nerd. Yeah, so
Speaker 2: so bizarre.
Speaker 3: I think That's why I like the brass rail bars.
Speaker 1: Just keep me in that pocket where I can just
Speaker 1: go get a beer in a pink glass.
Speaker 3: I don't want to run the world.
Speaker 2: Don't limit yourself, Rory, oh lot, you can't. We want
Speaker 2: you to run the world.
Speaker 3: I mean it'd be more fun.
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that Burning Man wouldn't be just a week,
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be just one week in one location.
Speaker 3: I'll tell you that.
Speaker 2: Welcome to Rory's world. All right, So how did we
Speaker 2: get here? How did this epic crumble of a Wall
Speaker 2: Street titan occur? It starts in nineteen eighty two, when
Speaker 2: Bowski took a brutal hit, losing sixty million dollars on
Speaker 2: a bad deal. Again that that's a lot of money,
Speaker 2: but it was way more back then. Uh. Suddenly, this
Speaker 2: guy who always seemed to be one step ahead was underwater.
Speaker 2: And that's when the line started to blur. The pressure mounted,
Speaker 2: the bets got darker, and Bosky crossed into insider trading.
Speaker 2: Is there anything more human than trying to recover from
Speaker 2: a humiliating loss by just immediately making a series of
Speaker 2: worst decisions. It is true. It's our common bond. It's
Speaker 2: such it makes us all human. Yeah, even on a
Speaker 2: small scale. I just feel like like if you, you know,
Speaker 2: you spill something in your lap, and then your panic
Speaker 2: makes you spill like some much older shit.
Speaker 3: God. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So now it's nineteen eighty five and Bosky's having an
Speaker 2: amazing year, and so were a lot of other savvy traders,
Speaker 2: all raking in millions. In fact, they were winning so
Speaker 2: hard that it was beginning to feel an awful lot
Speaker 2: like somebody knew something somewhere that somehow was tipping off
Speaker 2: those someone's with some slick insider gravy. Basically, regulators began
Speaker 2: to suspect that the stench of insider information was bubbling
Speaker 2: up from the sewage of these multimillion dollar deals. Quick
Speaker 2: Wall Street check in, do you understand what insider trading is?
Speaker 3: Yessexually I think so.
Speaker 1: For instance, your example earlier about a business being acquired
Speaker 1: by another business and finding that out and deciding, all right,
Speaker 1: let's buy low so we can sell high because we
Speaker 1: know it's coming.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: So the honest way to do that is to just
Speaker 2: do your research and your homework and try to figure
Speaker 2: out which companies are going to get bought. The illegal
Speaker 2: insider trading version is for someone who knows a company
Speaker 2: is about to be bought to tell to like whisper
Speaker 2: it to you, so you can then go and buy
Speaker 2: those shares, and then as soon as the company's bought
Speaker 2: those the value of those shares just like rockets up.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like it's very legal now because it
Speaker 1: seems to occur quite often in including with Iran white House.
Speaker 2: Yes, directly, well, it is. It's so ironic. And of
Speaker 2: course within Congress, so many Congress people have so much
Speaker 2: access to what is considered inside information. Yes, because they
Speaker 2: know about laws that are coming that will dramatically affect
Speaker 2: these various companies and industries, and they can invest accordingly,
Speaker 2: and they do, and it is so dark. And the
Speaker 2: irony is that the Securities and Exchange Commission, which is
Speaker 2: tasked with catching these people and bringing them to justice,
Speaker 2: they now have incredible analytics and you know, tools to
Speaker 2: catch people doing this stuff and to catch sort of
Speaker 2: suspicious activity and then be able to research massive amounts
Speaker 2: of data more quickly. Like the tools to catch these
Speaker 2: people are better than ever, and yet it feels like
Speaker 2: we're just swimming in it more than ever, which is insane.
Speaker 3: All the time.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So these investigators back in the day,
Speaker 2: they thought they smelled something and they were exactly right.
Speaker 2: According to Fortune, it was in nineteen eighty five that
Speaker 2: the SEC began to unravel a tangled web, Beginning with
Speaker 2: two Merrill Lynch employees in Venezuela. The SEC managed to
Speaker 2: connect them to high profile investment banker Dennis Levine, among others,
Speaker 2: and it was Levine who then gave up the gossip
Speaker 2: on Gordon Gek, I mean Ivan Boski. Levine had struck
Speaker 2: a deal to cooperate with the US Attorney of the
Speaker 2: Southern District of New York, who was wait for it,
Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani. Oh wow, this of course is pre mayoral,
Speaker 2: pre disbarred, pre four seasons total landscaping Juliani.
Speaker 3: The four seasons thing will live forever.
Speaker 2: Oh my god.
Speaker 3: Just yeah. But then act like you meant to do it.
Speaker 2: The abject stupidity of it all, and the it's so shocking, yeah,
Speaker 2: and shocking to think there was a time when he
Speaker 2: was actually on the right side of things like this,
Speaker 2: was he was actually doing good work as the attorney
Speaker 2: for the Southern District of New York. It was yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: so Levine admitted to providing Boski with non public information
Speaker 2: about pending deals, and this was enough to bring Bosky
Speaker 2: in and they caught him red handed. Then, interestingly, Boski
Speaker 2: would make a deal of his own with the Department
Speaker 2: of Justice, and this would lower his prison sentence from
Speaker 2: five years to three. Not only did he wind up
Speaker 2: paying a hundred million dollars, which at the time was
Speaker 2: a record high penalty for for such criminal activity, he
Speaker 2: also agreed to tattle on other traders by secretly recording
Speaker 2: them and turning them over to authorities.
Speaker 3: He's one of those guys.
Speaker 2: Yeah, hearked, he narked, he returned, he he did. He
Speaker 2: did bad things and then tried to get off the
Speaker 2: hook by doing bad things to other bad guys. I guess, yeah,
Speaker 2: And it's very morally ambiguous.
Speaker 3: You didn't feel.
Speaker 2: About it, Yeah, because you don't like rats. Rats are
Speaker 2: like they're the worst, they're turncoats, but like, oftentimes they're
Speaker 2: on the morally and ethically correct side of things.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you should, you actually should admire them, but you're like, no.
Speaker 2: No, now I respect you even less. Yeah, you should
Speaker 2: have been a criminal to begin with. Yeah, but now
Speaker 2: that you are one leave the other criminals alone.
Speaker 3: Right.
Speaker 2: I think it's the it's the cynicism of it, right,
Speaker 2: It's like it's not coming from a good place. Right, Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 2: there you go. The fall from grace was swift and merciless.
Speaker 2: In the nineteen eighty six Times article, an unidentified friend
Speaker 2: of Boski's is quoted he wanted so much to be accepted,
Speaker 2: and he thought money was the only way. That's kind
Speaker 2: of poignant, actually, said another investment banker, also unidentified, is
Speaker 2: quoted as saying, I always knew he was a rat.
Speaker 2: That's in Time magazine. I always knew he was a rat.
Speaker 2: That's like so Shakespearean for to see money in your future.
Speaker 2: The other guy so poignant and so intelligent and deep.
Speaker 2: Money isn't the path. Oh all right, well you're also
Speaker 2: a trader. You're also in investments. A few quick hits
Speaker 2: on his swift downfall, his book merges Hermania, was immediately
Speaker 2: dropped by the publisher, Henry Holt and Company. He was
Speaker 2: forced to scrap a plan to remodel his Westchester County
Speaker 2: family home to mirror that of Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. A
Speaker 2: common goal for all, sure, I mean we all want
Speaker 2: to get there. We all want we all want our
Speaker 2: homes to look like Monticello. Yeah, I mean what this
Speaker 2: is the Hubris Like Jesus. He was forced to withdraw
Speaker 2: as a trustee at the American Ballet Theater. You know
Speaker 2: that hurt. He had to cancel and rescind a one
Speaker 2: and a half million dollar grant to Princeton where his
Speaker 2: son was attending. Who that's going to be hard on
Speaker 2: the sun?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: One crazy aside. John mulharn Junior, one of Boski's proteges,
Speaker 2: feared he himself was about to be implicated in the
Speaker 2: scandal and allegedly loaded an assault rifle with the intent
Speaker 2: of killing Bosky and his former head trader, but he
Speaker 2: was stopped en route. According to police. Oh wow, Bosky
Speaker 2: pissed some people off. Of course, he got prison time
Speaker 2: and this massive fine. This is also interesting. Bosky was
Speaker 2: permanently banned from work in the financial sector, never to
Speaker 2: touch stocks, bonds, any kind of securities. Again, Rory, what
Speaker 2: if you got banned from comedy?
Speaker 3: I was just I was literally going, what would I do? Yeah,
Speaker 3: what's my plan? B I don't know.
Speaker 1: I think I'd open a coffee shop, or I'd try
Speaker 1: to coach college soccer.
Speaker 2: That's cool, all right, that's actually those are both nights.
Speaker 2: You could do both.
Speaker 3: Actually, try to do both of those. I actually try
Speaker 3: to have both of those things.
Speaker 1: A soccer catheic college soccer coffee place. Yeah, sure for
Speaker 1: the team, like the peach pin in nine two. Well, so,
Speaker 1: even having to pay this exorbitant penalty, Bosky was fine.
Speaker 1: Like he's had a ton of money.
Speaker 2: And after he was kicked off Wall Street, a lot
Speaker 2: more regulations and rules were set up in the world
Speaker 2: of finance to keep insider trading under control. Most notably
Speaker 2: was the addition of the Inside Trading and Securities Fraud
Speaker 2: Enforcement Act of nineteen eighty eight. This act increased penalties
Speaker 2: for insider trading, required firms to improve internal controls, and
Speaker 2: introduced a bounty for informants. In April nineteen ninety, Boski
Speaker 2: was released for cooperating with the Feds, serving only two
Speaker 2: of his three year sentence. Bosky would recede from public
Speaker 2: view and live out his days in relative peace, having
Speaker 2: passed away in May twenty twenty four. Forever a reminder, Yeah,
Speaker 2: he just passed away a couple of years ago.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh wow, Yeah.
Speaker 1: I gotta say, like, if he's getting out of it
Speaker 1: with all that money, it's kind of like what a
Speaker 1: great retirement. Sure you don't want to do two years
Speaker 1: in prison, but now you're out of the game and
Speaker 1: you still have enough money to just go and coast.
Speaker 3: It's just coast till it's over.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was. I'm sure he was in like
Speaker 2: a relatively pleasant white collar prison too. It wasn't like that.
Speaker 2: But here's what's interesting. A lot of people look at
Speaker 2: things like this, and and whatever side you're on, you
Speaker 2: might just be like, well, that's these are relatively victimless crimes,
Speaker 2: right that they're They're just it's just numbers, it's just
Speaker 2: financial finagling, Like is anyone getting hurt. But the truth
Speaker 2: is these deals that were happening in the eighties and
Speaker 2: on Wall Street, both the the the Raider, the sort
Speaker 2: of corporate raider culture and all of this this short
Speaker 2: buying and selling that was going on. These moves demolished
Speaker 2: companies and put thousands of people out of work. That's
Speaker 2: part of the great story in Wall Street is the
Speaker 2: Charlie Sheen's dad, played by his reel dad Martin Gene,
Speaker 2: is a mechanic at this company that Gordon Gecko is
Speaker 2: about to you know, break apart and he's going to
Speaker 2: lose his job, which is a very sort of personal,
Speaker 2: poignant depiction of what I'm talking about. Yeah, that these
Speaker 2: are not victimless crimes, that they there's a massive price
Speaker 2: to be paid, and it's being paid by working class people.
Speaker 2: And so you know, one could argue that a two
Speaker 2: year prison sentence, Oh that feels fine, because all he
Speaker 2: was doing is like pushing pencils around and like, you know,
Speaker 2: changing numbers. Maybe that's not fair, Maybe that's not enough,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I were just talking about earlier about how
Speaker 1: rampant it is now as a thing. You're like, oh god,
Speaker 1: now it doesn't even like two years almost seems insane
Speaker 1: to get any kind of penalty whatsoever. And you're right,
Speaker 1: it's the blue collar working class that pays for it.
Speaker 2: That's our story. Rory scovell Any final thoughts reflections that
Speaker 2: it did it teach you anything about humanity?
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like I always knew there was this
Speaker 1: evil out there, this greed, but you having quoted that
Speaker 1: speech does make me feel like, what's the harm in
Speaker 1: getting my hands a little dirty for just a couple
Speaker 1: months even you know what I mean, You can do okay,
Speaker 1: I got a little cash on the side.
Speaker 2: You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself.
Speaker 2: That is the lesson here, Yes, that's what I want
Speaker 2: to your point though, I really like that you're connecting
Speaker 2: it to this moment because the playbook hasn't changed since then.
Speaker 2: Right Bosky believed winning proved he was right, And once
Speaker 2: you convince yourself of that, the rules feel optional, which
Speaker 2: is very much the energy of this Trump administration.
Speaker 3: It's so much of it.
Speaker 2: And if you if you win, if you're just winning,
Speaker 2: if you're just making libs cry, then then you don't
Speaker 2: actually have to adhere to any standards or rules or
Speaker 2: frameworks or even the fucking Constitution.
Speaker 3: I know, I know.
Speaker 1: It's it's certainly a lesson in how critical these institutions
Speaker 1: to a degree are, not that they can't all be improved,
Speaker 1: but we're learning that if you demolish any of these institutions,
Speaker 1: you're up against a whole new a whole new beast
Speaker 1: of rebuild. If you get the chance, if you get
Speaker 1: the chance to rebuild.
Speaker 2: If if yeah, if we're lucky enough, yeah to come
Speaker 2: back in some way and build it back.
Speaker 1: Better, stronger, more rules, more regulations. Yeah, more accountability, but yeah,
Speaker 1: I think as individuals, if we don't have, if we
Speaker 1: don't care about accountability, then none of it can hold up.
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what's interesting. Having done tons of these
Speaker 2: stories about about major snaffoos, and so many of them
Speaker 2: are the result of darker forces in human nature, the
Speaker 2: one thing that rarely happens is accountability of any kind.
Speaker 2: And in this case, even two years of prison is like,
Speaker 2: thank god, he got something like It's just it feels
Speaker 2: like a little small morsel of justice, not like full justice.
Speaker 3: Slap on the wrist, Roy Schohold.
Speaker 2: This has been an absolute delight and a pleasure.
Speaker 3: Oh my god, thanks for inviting me. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3: That was a fun road to go down.
Speaker 2: All right, we'll see out there. Snafu is a production
Speaker 2: of Ihearts Podcasts and Snafu Media, a partnership between Film
Speaker 2: Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company, post production and
Speaker 2: creative support from good Egg Audio. Our executive producers are
Speaker 2: me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, and
Speaker 2: Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and
Speaker 2: Tory Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our video
Speaker 2: editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley.
Speaker 2: Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is
Speaker 2: Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gosson and the
Speaker 2: Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Meghan Halson and
Speaker 2: Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Kline,
Speaker 2: and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry
Speaker 2: Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't forget
Speaker 2: to pick up a copy of my book, Snaffoo, The
Speaker 2: Definitive Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available now
Speaker 2: from any book retailer. Just go to Snaffoo dashbook dot com.
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and see you next week.