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Speaker 1: It's very seldom I run into someone who I really

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Speaker 1: think is just kind of a piece of shit. I

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Speaker 1: go for the most part, everybody's just at their job,

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Speaker 1: whether they're wildly famous or not, and they're just trying

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Speaker 1: to do the job and then go home and hang

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Speaker 1: out with their family. It's just kind of our universal situation.

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Speaker 2: Well you know what that means, Rory, that you're the

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Speaker 2: piece of.

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Speaker 3: Oh my god, shit.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to SNAPO, your favorite podcast about history's

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Speaker 2: greatest screw ups, or, if we're being completely honest, a

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Speaker 2: show about the spectacular hubris of humanity, the epic disasters

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Speaker 2: it creates, and the lessons we like to pretend we

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Speaker 2: can learn from them. I'm your host ed Helms, and

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Speaker 2: I guess today. Is a very funny comedian, actor, writer,

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Speaker 2: and podcast host. He released his first comedy album, Dilation,

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Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, and pumped out not one, not three,

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Speaker 2: but six different stand up specials, the most recent of

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Speaker 2: which Religion, Sex, and a Few Things in Between, you

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Speaker 2: can find on HBO Max. He's appeared in a variety

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Speaker 2: of film and television programs, with a particularly standout performance

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Speaker 2: opposite Rose Byrne in Apple TV's Physical, which is a

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Speaker 2: fucking awesome show by the way, Nic Yes, indeed, and

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Speaker 2: he said to appear in a new ABC show called

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Speaker 2: Do You Want Kids? And I think I also just

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Speaker 2: saw a trailer that had you in it for my

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Speaker 2: buddy Steve Carell's new show Rooster. So please welcome to

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Speaker 2: the pod the amazing Rory Scovel.

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Speaker 3: Thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 1: I I've got to say, Ed, I have waited to

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Speaker 1: see you face to face because this was the only

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Speaker 1: way to tell you this. But Vacation is potentially one

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Speaker 1: of the funniest movies that I have seen in I

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Speaker 1: do not I don't know how long, but I have

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Speaker 1: not seen a comedy where literally every five minutes I

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Speaker 1: sort of need to pause the movie to collect myself.

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Speaker 1: And I have shown so many people that movie and

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Speaker 1: I tell them, you will cry laughing, And it's so true.

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Speaker 1: I love that movie so much.

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Speaker 2: You were this You're gonna make me cry right now.

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Speaker 2: You're really touching me. And I'll tell you why, because

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Speaker 2: I and the writer directors of that movie have long

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Speaker 2: felt that that movie like, we are so proud of it.

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Speaker 2: It's a movie we loved making, we love the product

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Speaker 2: and it just didn't capture the audience that we that

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Speaker 2: we hoped for. And so when I get these little

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Speaker 2: nuggets of affirmation like that, I really appreciate it. That

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Speaker 2: really means a lot.

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Speaker 3: You guys should absolutely be proud of it.

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Speaker 1: But just given the fact that it's not comedically predictable,

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Speaker 1: it's not hacky, it's not like the cringey comedy that

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Speaker 1: you can find out there, which is fine, the fact

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Speaker 1: that it actually is just so moments of that car

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Speaker 1: is so stupid.

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Speaker 2: The car is so funny. There's a keyfob with a

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Speaker 2: million buttons on it, and Christina Applegate goes, is that

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Speaker 2: a swastika? And I just say, yeah, we won't use that.

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Speaker 2: What is that? What? Uh?

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Speaker 3: It's great?

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Speaker 2: All right, Well enough about Hey, we're here to talk

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Speaker 2: about you. First of all, I've actually known you a

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Speaker 2: long time, not well, we've bumped into each other over

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Speaker 2: the years. But I have a very borderline offensive question

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Speaker 2: for you, which is do you say your last name

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Speaker 2: Scovell or Scovell.

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Speaker 1: I say Scovell, which, okay, I'm going to go and

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Speaker 1: say it's correct, but that's my versions of it.

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Speaker 2: Right, Scovelley Skivel good because I am Southern, so I

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Speaker 2: have all these little like contractions I say. I say

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Speaker 2: things like like like my friend Eleanor, I say Eleanor

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Speaker 2: and Scoville and that sort of thing. So uh, but

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Speaker 2: I'm always conscious that I'm probably doing it wrong as well.

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Speaker 2: Where are you from? Originally the South?

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Speaker 3: From South Carolina, Greenville? Oh?

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Speaker 2: Right on.

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Speaker 3: Eleanor is exactly.

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Speaker 2: Right, even though it's spelled with an o's pronounced with

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Speaker 2: an I or even an apostrophe an apostrophe are eleanor Eleanor?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that art comes in quick.

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Speaker 2: You're rapidly becoming an American treasure. And I.

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Speaker 3: Love the best podcast I've ever been and we should

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Speaker 3: just do this.

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Speaker 2: This is called we just just compliment each other with

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Speaker 2: voice are you? That's what this is called. No, but

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Speaker 2: it's fun when I have people on that I think

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Speaker 2: are awesome like you, so thank you. You have a

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Speaker 2: new podcast. Also, you're getting into this space starting to

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Speaker 2: horn in on my space. That's right a little bit.

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Speaker 2: What is it? Tell me more?

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Speaker 1: It's a show called Crime List. I do it with

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Speaker 1: the journalist Josh Dean and yeah, he basically not so

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Speaker 1: unlike this show just in the world of like crime

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Speaker 1: stories and stupid criminals throughout history and throughout the world.

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Speaker 1: Josh kind of reads me a story about can you

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Speaker 1: believe this bone head? You know, criminal story? And I'm

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Speaker 1: just hearing it for the first time and commenting on it,

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Speaker 1: and I love it. I'm shocked every time that I mean,

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Speaker 1: I'm not shocked, and I am shocked that ninety five

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Speaker 1: percent of the stories are from Florida.

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Speaker 3: But that's just the reality of it.

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Speaker 1: But Yeah, it's out now and it's been super fun

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Speaker 1: to do, and Josh is a great co host cool.

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Speaker 2: I am psyched to check that out. And it's also

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Speaker 2: perfect segue into what we're about to do. I'm about

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Speaker 2: to talk to you about this snafu, and in this

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Speaker 2: particular case, it is also a crime perfect Have you

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Speaker 2: seen the movie Wall Street. I've seen the movie Wall Street, Okay,

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Speaker 2: with Michael Douglas and Charlie Sheene, Darryl Hannah Oliver Stone movie.

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Speaker 2: It's phenomenal. So the guy that Michael Douglas plays in

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Speaker 2: that movie, who's like a corporate raider and like a

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Speaker 2: Wall Street tycoon. He's based loosely, but he is based

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Speaker 2: on a real guy. Does this ring any bells for.

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Speaker 3: You, No, I don't think. I don't think I was

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Speaker 3: aware of this.

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Speaker 2: No, Okay, So this is a Wall Street legend of sorts.

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Speaker 2: It's just one of those really epic stories about a

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Speaker 2: man who rows from rags to riches and then plummeted

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Speaker 2: from riches to an orange jumpsuit. Our man of the

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Speaker 2: hour is Ivan Bowski, and he was considered widely thought

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Speaker 2: to be the inspiration for Michael Douglas's very slippery eighties

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Speaker 2: villain Gordon Gecko. We have a we have a photo

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Speaker 2: of mister Boski here.

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Speaker 3: It just seems like.

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Speaker 2: I think that I've seen other pictures of him where

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Speaker 2: his eyes look normal. So I'm just gonna guess that's

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Speaker 2: a weird He's either he's either winking or or it's

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Speaker 2: just one of those weird, weird moments that the cameras get.

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Speaker 2: But there's a slickness to this guy. And look at

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Speaker 2: his skin. Hey, he's got game show host vibes.

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Speaker 3: He does.

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Speaker 2: He kind of looks like he'd be fun to hang

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Speaker 2: out have a beer with, I'll be honest.

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Speaker 3: That's right.

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Speaker 2: Well, we're gonna learn why he might not be somebody

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Speaker 2: that you wanted to hang out with. Also, funny funny footnote.

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Speaker 2: He's wearing a black suit and a white shirt in

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Speaker 2: this picture, and that that was his go to every

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Speaker 2: single day. He and someone asked him at one point,

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Speaker 2: why do you wear the same suit and every day?

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Speaker 2: And he just said, I have enough big decisions to

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Speaker 2: make every day. This is one I can just take

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Speaker 2: off the list, which is funny because Einstein is also

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Speaker 2: famous for that. Albert Einstein always wore the same suit

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Speaker 2: and shirt and for the same reason. It's just like

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Speaker 2: take it off your plate, right.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense, it makes it. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: you do that. I don't do it for those reasons.

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Speaker 1: When I heard the same clothes, it's clearly like a

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Speaker 1: lazy sort.

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Speaker 2: Of When I hear the same clothes every day, it's problematic.

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Speaker 2: It's a bit of a red flag. It happens that

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Speaker 2: you explain right. Here is Michael Douglas's famous piece of

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Speaker 2: dialogue from Wall Street. He's giving a big speech to

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Speaker 2: stockholders meeting for a big company, and he's walking the

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Speaker 2: aisle with a microphone, and he's tons of gravitas and

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Speaker 2: he's just saying, greed, for lack of a better word,

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Speaker 2: is good. Greed is right greed works read, clarifies, cuts

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Speaker 2: through and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeaheah.

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Speaker 1: I think we know now the state of our politics

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Speaker 1: that he was right, it's going great, it's going so good.

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Speaker 2: He's all right. What he left out is and all

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Speaker 2: of that sucks, and that the consequences of all this

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Speaker 2: is not good.

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Speaker 3: The endgame of this is devastating.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, So today we will find out what that spirit

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Speaker 2: conjured throughout the eighties. Of course, your show Physical takes

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Speaker 2: place in the eighties. How do you how would you

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Speaker 2: capture the spirit of the eighties? How would you describe it?

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Speaker 3: I don't know.

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Speaker 1: I feel like it's almost a good I feel like that.

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Speaker 1: That's why there's something to his speech in that movie,

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Speaker 1: because it's almost like the eighties was like you can

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Speaker 1: get up and you can create your own future, and

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Speaker 1: greed and wanting to do it and having to step

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Speaker 1: over people to pull it off is a is a

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Speaker 1: great way, is a great start. And then the other

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Speaker 1: side of it feels like Cindy Lapper and Madonna, which

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Speaker 1: I feel like I identify with more in my spirit

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Speaker 1: of what I like to envision of the eighties.

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Speaker 3: But as far as business, yeah, I think it was

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Speaker 3: like that.

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Speaker 2: Also, I'm just going to say a word that I

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Speaker 2: associate with the eighties cocaine.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, lots of it.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, And that that's what crossed the aisles. That's where

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Speaker 1: the art community and common ground.

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Speaker 2: Amen. All right, Well, let's get into Ivanboski a little bit.

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Speaker 2: He starts out modestly. Born in nineteen thirty seventy, grew

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Speaker 2: up in post war Detroit, the son of a Russian

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Speaker 2: immigrant who ran delis and old school brass railbars, which

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Speaker 2: is those blue collar taverns fueled by rye breads, cigarettes

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Speaker 2: and cheap liquor and a little fun Detroit footnote. Bosky

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Speaker 2: attended Mumford High School. Does that mean anything to you?

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Speaker 3: No.

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Speaker 2: Mumford High School later achieved pop culture immortality thanks to

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Speaker 2: Eddie Murphy's gray sweatshirt in Beverly Hills cop Oh yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: he is a Mumford sweatshirt. I love that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, so Boski actually went there. From the sounds of it,

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Speaker 2: Ivan strove for more. There's a peculiar quote from his

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Speaker 2: second cousin, found in a Time magazine article. He had

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Speaker 2: this capacity for single mindedness. He drove himself mercilessly as

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Speaker 2: far as exercise goes.

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Speaker 1: That's the most unrelatable sentence I've ever heard.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it goes on to talk about how he does

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Speaker 2: hundreds of push ups, which is odd, but I guess

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Speaker 2: speaks to like a driven sort of character as a

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Speaker 2: young man. Have you ever watched someone with incredible focus

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Speaker 2: and drive and just thought that's really before realizing that's

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Speaker 2: the energy that also is wrecking everything.

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Speaker 1: Yes, but also they almost seemed you can't picture them

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Speaker 1: laughing or saying something originally funny, or you just they

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Speaker 1: almost feel like carbon copies of carbon copies of people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know what you mean. I don't understand that drive.

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Speaker 2: It's a little bit of lawn musk sarc right. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: it feels like he was this incredibly inspiring, kind of

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Speaker 2: relentless innovator and then whoa, whoa, it just went so yeah,

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Speaker 2: so far over the the line.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: At some point, Yeah, the ambition gets taken away or

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Speaker 1: just takes off way too far. I also think some kids,

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Speaker 1: speaking of the eighties, I think you watched movies. I

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Speaker 1: think there's a lot of us that saw something like

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Speaker 1: The Karate Kid and wanted to be Daniel LaRusso, and

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Speaker 1: then some people were like, no, I want to be Johnny.

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Speaker 1: I want to be a blondeheaded dude who's clearly a

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Speaker 1: bad guy. And it's you see that in their lives

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Speaker 1: that's so interesting.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I definitely when I saw those guys jumping

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Speaker 2: motorcycles around in their skeleton Halloween costumes, I was like,

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Speaker 2: I definitely want to be that. But when Daniel LaRusso

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Speaker 2: like kicks him in the face with the swan kick,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, that's who I want.

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Speaker 3: You're like, that's the guy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: While in school, Boski married Sima Silberstein in nineteen sixty two,

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Speaker 2: daughter of real estate lawyer and hotel tycoon Ben Silberstein.

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Speaker 2: We could probably actually do a whole story on Silberstein.

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Speaker 2: He is fascinating in and of and himself. But here's

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Speaker 2: a quick anecdote. Allegedly, when he was younger, he was

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Speaker 2: turned away from the Beverly Hills Hotel. On a subsequent

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Speaker 2: visit with his youngest daughter, Muriel, she exclaimed that he

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Speaker 2: thought he should simply buy the place, and so he did. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I guess that's kind of a fuck you. He just

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Speaker 2: bought the hotel. For five point five million dollars in

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Speaker 2: nineteen fifty four. Oh my god, that's that's just over

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Speaker 2: sixty six million today, and I think it's worth a

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Speaker 2: lot more than that. Safe to say, Boski was well

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Speaker 2: aware of this class differential he was marrying into and

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Speaker 2: really wanted to prove himself. After graduating from the Detroit

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Speaker 2: College of Law, he drifted through a series of soul

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Speaker 2: sucking gigs law clerk, accountant, kind of rinse and repeat.

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Speaker 2: None of it's sticking, none of its satisfying. Then his

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Speaker 2: father died in nineteen sixty four, Boski took over the

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Speaker 2: family's last brass Rail bar and rebranded it La Club

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Speaker 2: a Go Go, and it brought in topless dancers and

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Speaker 2: made it a kind of tawdry, salatious affair, and of

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Speaker 2: course it was bankrupt within two years.

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Speaker 3: The brass Rail Bar is so fun.

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Speaker 1: Every time I hear that, I think of Rudy when

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Speaker 1: his dad threw him and his brother out of the

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Speaker 1: bar when all the guys were off work at the

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Speaker 1: mill and they were just drinking at the bar, and

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Speaker 1: then Rudy was sean Aston was doing something and his

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Speaker 1: dad told the owner to throw them out. It lives

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Speaker 1: in my mind forever because I thought, why don't you

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Speaker 1: just tell your son.

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Speaker 3: To leave the bar? Why does the owner have to.

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Speaker 1: Now get involved throwing your kid out of the bar.

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Speaker 1: But I always picture that five PM blue collar guys

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Speaker 1: in their their you know, destroyed clothing from working at

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Speaker 1: the mill, just having beers and it just seems so cozy.

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Speaker 2: Now introduce like like a like a burlesque dancer to

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Speaker 2: that vibey. And it was not successful, this one did.

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Speaker 2: It went bankrupt in two years. Boski, at the time,

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Speaker 2: was not exactly happy. His father in law would constantly

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Speaker 2: let him know how unhappy he was with his daughter's choices.

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Speaker 2: He nicknamed Ivan Boski Ivan a bum and openly referred

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Speaker 2: to him as an air dwell who would amount to nothing,

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Speaker 2: which is kind of kind of a brutal way to

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Speaker 2: talk to your son in law.

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Speaker 1: I feel like Ivan Brokski was right there for the

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Speaker 1: taking anyone with the bum.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, oh gosh, yeah, you're going to be a tough

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Speaker 2: father in law.

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Speaker 1: I'm excited just that name. Yeah, for the nicknames, this is.

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Speaker 2: An interesting one. How much of a person's identity or

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Speaker 2: you know, ambition gets shaped by all the people shouting

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Speaker 2: at them that they're a failure.

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Speaker 3: Of course, my god, absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I mean that's like the core of representation in entertainment

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Speaker 1: and how you're represented like in entertainment and who you

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Speaker 1: are that you you know, when you start to identify

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Speaker 1: with people who look like you or you feel like

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Speaker 1: you relate to, Like, that's what inspires the idea that

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Speaker 1: you think, well, I'm just meant to be a failure

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Speaker 1: or I can be a success, you know for sure.

300
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Speaker 1: But you're right, like criticism like that it starts to

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Speaker 1: become your reality.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it can either it can either destroy someone or

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00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:12,439
Speaker 2: like give them like very intense fuel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And uh and I would I would also say that's

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Speaker 2: probably not like good fuel, healthy fuel.

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Speaker 3: Fuel.

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Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, it's like I want to be a success,

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00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,399
Speaker 2: not because I want to like have nice vacations with

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Speaker 2: my family. It's because I want to make this other

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Speaker 2: person feel like shit.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because buy a hotel when they refuse service, that

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Speaker 1: really puts me in my place. I couldn't do that

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Speaker 1: at a gas station or a go to a fast

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Speaker 1: food place and they disrespected me.

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Speaker 3: I'd be like, you just wait, I'm gonna buy this place.

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna need about twenty years just to kind of

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Speaker 1: get the green together, but.

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Speaker 2: Also see well. Needless to say, Boski was extremely motivated,

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Speaker 2: in part probably to best his father in law. He

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Speaker 2: and Seema moved to the Big Apple. Now Rory, that

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00:17:59,520 --> 00:18:02,479
Speaker 2: is a Wall Street term for New York City.

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Speaker 3: Okay, you said we were going to learn today, You

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Speaker 3: said that.

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Speaker 2: The Big Apple. Make a note of it. Yeah, Now,

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Speaker 2: I guess father in law Silberstein was at least kind

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Speaker 2: enough to put them up in a Park Avenue apartment.

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Speaker 2: He even bankrolled Boski's first company with seven hundred thousand dollars.

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Speaker 2: This was nineteen seventy five and Ivan had found his

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Speaker 2: passion and promise on Wall Street. He was an incredibly

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Speaker 2: hard worker, allegedly clocking twenty hour work days. This is

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Speaker 2: an interesting thing that sort of emerges in a lot

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00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:42,440
Speaker 2: of biographical material about him. He never ate. He would

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Speaker 2: go to these big you know, functions and meals or

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00:18:45,080 --> 00:18:47,439
Speaker 2: like host big things dinner parties and this and that,

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00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:49,880
Speaker 2: and like no one ever saw him eat. He would

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00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,800
Speaker 2: have like a grape or like little nibbles of things.

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Speaker 2: And he was like as we mentioned before, relentlessly working

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00:18:56,800 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 2: out just like a very intense guy and also never slept.

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Speaker 2: It's just one of those weird vampire dudes who can

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Speaker 2: like like I have my sleep tracker, and if it's

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Speaker 2: like less than eight hours, I'm just like, oh God,

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Speaker 2: this is going to be a hard day.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, your day's ruined.

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Speaker 2: Sorry. I go into the day already like, oh, I'm

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Speaker 2: on half a tank guy, And.

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Speaker 1: You're like, if I could just get three pastries in

348
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Speaker 1: my body, I bet I could find some.

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Speaker 3: Fuel in there.

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Speaker 2: Ivan Boski was very dedicated to sort of carving out

351
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Speaker 2: his place on Wall Street. He was not a traditional investor.

352
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Speaker 2: He worked in a space known as arbitrage. So traditional

353
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Speaker 2: investing is like planting a tree. You buy a stock

354
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Speaker 2: and you believe in the company, and you hold it

355
00:19:45,320 --> 00:19:48,879
Speaker 2: for a long time, believing that this company will will grow.

356
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Speaker 2: Stockbrokers will research companies in order to sort of know

357
00:19:52,600 --> 00:19:57,360
Speaker 2: which companies have the best chances of growing and accumulating value.

358
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Speaker 2: Arbitrage is a different kind of investor. It's all about timing.

359
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:06,879
Speaker 2: It's fast and it's fast in and fast out, So

360
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,919
Speaker 2: you buy something that you think is temporarily underpriced and

361
00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 2: then sell it the minute the price corrects. So it

362
00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:17,080
Speaker 2: kind of works like this, you would find a small

363
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:21,720
Speaker 2: company something that has like a sort of special or

364
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:24,800
Speaker 2: obscure value. Maybe it's a product or a service or

365
00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:27,679
Speaker 2: an expertise of some kind, but it's something that a

366
00:20:27,760 --> 00:20:32,320
Speaker 2: bigger company would want. Then you figure out that a

367
00:20:32,359 --> 00:20:36,359
Speaker 2: takeover buy this bigger company or any number of bigger

368
00:20:36,400 --> 00:20:41,040
Speaker 2: companies is likely before the public catches onto this, and

369
00:20:41,080 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 2: you buy a ton of shares of this small company

370
00:20:44,440 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 2: while the stock price is relatively low. Then when this

371
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,680
Speaker 2: takeover happens and is announced, the stock price jumps and

372
00:20:52,840 --> 00:20:56,200
Speaker 2: you immediately sell. Yeah, it has nothing, there's no loyalty,

373
00:20:56,680 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 2: there's no belief in the company. You're just trying to

374
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Speaker 2: spot the moment when the price is about to change

375
00:21:01,200 --> 00:21:03,920
Speaker 2: and be there first. It's one of the most risky

376
00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:09,040
Speaker 2: kinds of investing, and at the time, most arbitrage players

377
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 2: were very cautious, small bets, careful math, lots of hedging.

378
00:21:13,880 --> 00:21:18,320
Speaker 2: But Bowski was not built this way. He went He

379
00:21:18,440 --> 00:21:21,760
Speaker 2: just went big. He pushed harder, he took huge risks

380
00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,840
Speaker 2: that others wouldn't touch. And as the seventies sort of

381
00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:28,560
Speaker 2: turned into the eighties, this all of his bullheaded bluster

382
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:32,160
Speaker 2: turned him into a force of nature. He was also

383
00:21:32,200 --> 00:21:38,119
Speaker 2: incredibly smart and gifted at you know, market analysis, and

384
00:21:38,240 --> 00:21:42,439
Speaker 2: somehow Ivan Boski just kept crushing it.

385
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Speaker 1: Every time you say Bosky, I only picture Michael Douglas anyways,

386
00:21:45,680 --> 00:21:48,680
Speaker 1: eating honestly, just eating the raw meat that he gets

387
00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:49,680
Speaker 1: at that restaurant in there.

388
00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,560
Speaker 2: That movie was so good. I need to rewatch that.

389
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Speaker 1: I mean when he stands on the balcony at the

390
00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,120
Speaker 1: apartment and Charlie Sheen just yells out to the city,

391
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Speaker 1: who am I. Yeah, It's like we've all been there.

392
00:22:02,480 --> 00:22:07,280
Speaker 2: Been there? Did you live in New York City? Anyway?

393
00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 3: I lived there.

394
00:22:07,880 --> 00:22:12,600
Speaker 1: For four years and then what when was that? I

395
00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,360
Speaker 1: was there o seven to twenty eleven.

396
00:22:17,680 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 2: Right after me, I was there ninety six to two

397
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:23,800
Speaker 2: thousand's yeah seven.

398
00:22:23,960 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: Basically I was there when I lived there. I was

399
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Speaker 1: at all those Dell Closed marathons watching you guys that

400
00:22:31,080 --> 00:22:33,679
Speaker 1: those that won that venue was incredible. But those are

401
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,480
Speaker 1: some of my happiest memories from comedy, just going and

402
00:22:36,520 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 1: watching insane improv at the Dell Close marathon.

403
00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,560
Speaker 3: Yes, like three in the morning.

404
00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: Yes, it was so it felt so punk rock, right,

405
00:22:46,800 --> 00:22:48,919
Speaker 2: and that was like, That's what I loved about it

406
00:22:48,960 --> 00:22:52,320
Speaker 2: is like there were there were a lot of like, like,

407
00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: I've always been pretty nerdy and like clean cut, but

408
00:22:55,640 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 2: like I value punk rock, I value the the the

409
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,639
Speaker 2: weirdos and the people on the margins. I just think

410
00:23:03,720 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: that they're such a marvelous part of our culture and society.

411
00:23:07,480 --> 00:23:10,480
Speaker 2: And then you have an institution like the Upright Citizens

412
00:23:10,520 --> 00:23:16,000
Speaker 2: Brigade that that just brings it all together somehow, And

413
00:23:16,040 --> 00:23:20,760
Speaker 2: you have like buttoned up comedians performing next to like

414
00:23:21,280 --> 00:23:25,840
Speaker 2: just the wildest performance art Whack a Do's, and it's

415
00:23:25,960 --> 00:23:26,720
Speaker 2: just pure joy.

416
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:32,280
Speaker 3: I like, I agree.

417
00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 2: We're now in the midst of the mid eighties. We're

418
00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:44,879
Speaker 2: talking lycra leggings, Tom Selix mustache, and everyone's asking where's

419
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:51,920
Speaker 2: the beef because of the Wendy's commercial. Yeah, it was Wendy's.

420
00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 2: Oh I don't know, is that where it came from?

421
00:23:53,680 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: Where's the beef? Yeah, it's like a little old lady

422
00:23:55,760 --> 00:23:57,760
Speaker 2: opening up her hamburger and it's like a tiny little

423
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: meat patty. In nineteen eighty one, the Ivan F. Boski Corp.

424
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:05,159
Speaker 2: Was rolling in it, making more than one hundred and

425
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:08,960
Speaker 2: fifty million dollars in profits from short runs on CBS,

426
00:24:09,080 --> 00:24:12,879
Speaker 2: Gulf Oil and Konaco. According to Vanity Fair, one hundred

427
00:24:12,880 --> 00:24:17,120
Speaker 2: and fifty million dollars was more money than Ivan's father

428
00:24:17,200 --> 00:24:21,399
Speaker 2: in law ever had. Perfect So I guess some nice

429
00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:22,640
Speaker 2: warm comfort there.

430
00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:29,119
Speaker 1: That's aolution of the human spirit right there. Yeah, it

431
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:30,520
Speaker 1: just got it above that number.

432
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:32,919
Speaker 2: Oh, I just got a win. I just got a

433
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 2: win at whatever cost to my soul. It's fine. So

434
00:24:37,359 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 2: Ivan is raking it in. By the spring of nineteen

435
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,080
Speaker 2: eighty five, he was reportedly the highest paid broker on

436
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:45,160
Speaker 2: Wall Street, with a net worth of over two hundred

437
00:24:45,160 --> 00:24:47,719
Speaker 2: and eighty million dollars, which is nearly eight hundred and

438
00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 2: forty million in today's dollars, which I just want to

439
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,840
Speaker 2: point out, eight hundred and forty million dollars, like in

440
00:24:53,920 --> 00:25:00,000
Speaker 2: today's money is not considered, you know, the the crazy wealth,

441
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:03,119
Speaker 2: the crazy way you have to be a billionaire to

442
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:07,639
Speaker 2: be a crazy wealthy. And that's a comment on like

443
00:25:07,880 --> 00:25:12,720
Speaker 2: in the eighties, as much money and excess as these

444
00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 2: guys are engaging in, we're still not in a culture

445
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 2: with the wealth gap that we have today. Yeah, right,

446
00:25:19,320 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 2: the wealth gap has just like exploded exploded since the eighties.

447
00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: But it's just interesting to me that we're talking about

448
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,919
Speaker 2: these guys as if they're Jeff Bezos or or Elon

449
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,480
Speaker 2: Musk or Zuckerberg, but they're not even close to that

450
00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 2: by comparison.

451
00:25:35,240 --> 00:25:39,640
Speaker 1: And yet still titans in their own in the daytime. Yeah,

452
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:41,560
Speaker 1: the day they were that. And I think it's that

453
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 1: trickle down economics of the eighties where people are like, now,

454
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,160
Speaker 1: give all this money, give it up here, and you'll

455
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: get it back.

456
00:25:49,480 --> 00:25:50,479
Speaker 3: It'll come back to you.

457
00:25:50,760 --> 00:25:53,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know what you mean, Like that wealth gap

458
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 1: is massive now, and I think there's something to the

459
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,680
Speaker 1: eighties of like, yeah, this is what really the lit

460
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 1: the fire.

461
00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:02,040
Speaker 3: Yeah.

462
00:26:02,320 --> 00:26:05,160
Speaker 2: Boski held the spot on the Forbes four hundred list

463
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:10,640
Speaker 2: of America's wealthiest people. He ran his firm with real intensity, ferocity,

464
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: orchestrating like a real high pressure operation of roughly one

465
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:19,520
Speaker 2: hundred employees. His self promotion was legendary. He hired his

466
00:26:19,520 --> 00:26:24,359
Speaker 2: own PR firm to help promote himself. His self promotion

467
00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,000
Speaker 2: tour included press for his his own book, written with

468
00:26:28,040 --> 00:26:34,560
Speaker 2: the aid of journalist Jeffrey G. Madrick, called merger Mania Arbitrage,

469
00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: Wall Street's best kept money making secret, and uh, yeah,

470
00:26:40,200 --> 00:26:42,639
Speaker 2: you know that big old shady eating grin right on

471
00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:43,119
Speaker 2: the front.

472
00:26:43,320 --> 00:26:44,720
Speaker 3: It's so funny, like a book like that.

473
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:47,159
Speaker 1: You're like, just like just considering where I grew up

474
00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:50,000
Speaker 1: in South Carolina, Like my dad worked at the post office.

475
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,000
Speaker 1: Is like, is anybody in the post office you read this?

476
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:57,760
Speaker 1: Money Mania Army, Yeah, merger merger Mania, merger.

477
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 3: Mania Yeah, book cup out Walls, Yeah.

478
00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,640
Speaker 1: I feel like you just explaining investing in companies, getting

479
00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: in and getting out is probably the biggest lesson I've

480
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:08,920
Speaker 1: gotten in my.

481
00:27:11,080 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 3: Street.

482
00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:14,960
Speaker 1: What it even is to me, it's just a circus

483
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,080
Speaker 1: that I can't understand.

484
00:27:16,160 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: Yes, I agree, I find I find it all very

485
00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 2: like brain mangling. In nineteen eighty six, Boski was invited

486
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: to provide a commencement speech at the University of California

487
00:27:31,320 --> 00:27:35,879
Speaker 2: at Berkeley has School of Business. And this is where

488
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,880
Speaker 2: that speech that was the inspiration for Gordon Gecko's infamous

489
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:44,840
Speaker 2: framing was derived. But it's not exactly the same as

490
00:27:44,880 --> 00:27:48,720
Speaker 2: Gordon Gecko's. What he said is greed is all right.

491
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,640
Speaker 2: By the way, I want you to know that I

492
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 2: think greed is healthy. You can be greedy and still

493
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 2: feel good about yourself. It sounds like a cult leader.

494
00:28:00,720 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 2: It's weird, you know what it has echoes of this

495
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: this uh, this, all this stuff emerging from both the

496
00:28:06,400 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 2: Christian nationalist movement and Elon Musk where it's like empathy

497
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:12,479
Speaker 2: is bad.

498
00:28:12,840 --> 00:28:14,080
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, yeah, this.

499
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: Is saying the same thing in the sort of inverse.

500
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 2: Greed is because self interest is good. It's very and

501
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:22,440
Speaker 2: randy in that way, like it's just.

502
00:28:23,080 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 1: It's very Uh, discard the seven deadly sins and move on.

503
00:28:27,640 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: Greed is okay, It's fine, right, fine, right right, Yeah.

504
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,880
Speaker 2: The Bible literally tells you that this is a deadly sin.

505
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,919
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's one saying this. This is destructive to you

506
00:28:37,960 --> 00:28:40,600
Speaker 1: personally and to all of people. But if you want

507
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 1: to have an elevator in your house, you gotta have

508
00:28:44,160 --> 00:28:45,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of it.

509
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 3: Yeah.

510
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,720
Speaker 2: This is the I love the last sentence. You can

511
00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: be greedy and still feel good about yourself. That's awesome.

512
00:28:56,000 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

513
00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,479
Speaker 2: Okay, So all of this is going on, and all

514
00:28:58,480 --> 00:29:04,160
Speaker 2: of a sudden record scratch, just months after riding high,

515
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:08,000
Speaker 2: it all unraveled. On November fourteenth, nineteen eighty six, ivan

516
00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 2: Boski pleaded guilty to conspiring to file false trading records,

517
00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 2: which is a complicated way of saying insider trading. Okay, basically,

518
00:29:17,560 --> 00:29:20,080
Speaker 2: Time Magazine put his grinning face on the cover and

519
00:29:20,160 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 2: dubbed him Ivan the Terrible, which is a little derivative,

520
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 2: but it's.

521
00:29:24,760 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 3: Still better than Ivan the Bum from the Father.

522
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: Sure not, and not as good as Ivan broke Ski Right,

523
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 2: that's right. One minute this guy is Wall Street Royalty,

524
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: the next he's a cautionary tale and the high roller

525
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: era was over. He is headed to prison. Do you

526
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: think that repeated success always turns people into egomaniacs or

527
00:29:52,840 --> 00:29:56,560
Speaker 2: like just disasters? Is it possible to remain humble?

528
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:01,280
Speaker 1: I think it's possible to remain humble, base done. I

529
00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:07,560
Speaker 1: think how much you've acquired as a person before you've

530
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: reached that success. For instance, I think a lot of

531
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: people in our industry who find fame or fortune later

532
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: in their careers.

533
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:17,800
Speaker 3: Tend to be.

534
00:30:19,560 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 1: So much a little more chill and fully aware that

535
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:24,800
Speaker 1: life is fickled and it can go away. And yesterday

536
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,720
Speaker 1: I was doing this job and today I'm grateful I've

537
00:30:27,720 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: got this one. But I think when you have it

538
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: at a young age, and nothing against those people that

539
00:30:31,880 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: get at a young age because they are missing that

540
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: sort of educational step. I think a lot of times

541
00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: they can come off as awful people, and maybe it's

542
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: something happens and they turn a corner and they change.

543
00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:47,720
Speaker 1: But you definitely see it in people who come from

544
00:30:47,760 --> 00:30:50,880
Speaker 1: a certain background. I think it's just learning the value

545
00:30:51,720 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: of things, for sure. But I think people can remain humble.

546
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:59,360
Speaker 1: I tell people all the time that, like friends back

547
00:30:59,400 --> 00:31:02,000
Speaker 1: home or people ask me if I've worked with someone,

548
00:31:02,520 --> 00:31:04,240
Speaker 1: they always want to know if someone's a jerk.

549
00:31:04,440 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 3: I go, I gotta be honest.

550
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: It's very seldom I run into someone who I really

551
00:31:09,200 --> 00:31:11,480
Speaker 1: think is just kind of a piece of shit. I go,

552
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: for the most part, everybody's just at their job, whether

553
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,479
Speaker 1: they're wildly famous or not, and they're just trying to

554
00:31:19,360 --> 00:31:21,440
Speaker 1: do the job and then go home and hang out

555
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: with their family. It's just kind of our universal situation.

556
00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:30,200
Speaker 2: Well you know what that means, Rory, What that means

557
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:31,720
Speaker 2: you're the piece of shit?

558
00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 3: Oh my god. Shit, if you.

559
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,800
Speaker 2: Can't actually see how much other people are a piece

560
00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:40,560
Speaker 2: of shit, it means you're a giant piece of shit.

561
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 1: Ahuck. I just thought they were so fun. I looked

562
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: up to all of them.

563
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:53,480
Speaker 2: I mean, our industry obviously is a very hot crucible

564
00:31:53,640 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 2: of all of this stuff, But I think also just

565
00:31:57,040 --> 00:31:59,640
Speaker 2: looking into the business world, you know, and seeing a

566
00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,440
Speaker 2: special these these tech modern tech titans and you're Jeff

567
00:32:03,480 --> 00:32:07,440
Speaker 2: Bezos's and so forth, it's really amazing. You can chart

568
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: their values and their appearance, yeah, their physical appearance, how

569
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,240
Speaker 2: it changes over time with their power and wealth, and

570
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:23,000
Speaker 2: it's it's very disheartening, you know. The the notion that

571
00:32:23,120 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 2: absolute power corrupts absolutely really seems to hold a lot

572
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: of water.

573
00:32:29,760 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: Yes, one hundred percent. Yeah.

574
00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: And also you do wonder, like in the origin story

575
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:39,080
Speaker 1: of these billionaires or tech titans, you do wonder like,

576
00:32:39,120 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 1: are they coming from a place of like sort of

577
00:32:41,640 --> 00:32:43,800
Speaker 1: like ivan, like was it vengeance where they like, Oh,

578
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,400
Speaker 1: I'll show this world I have value and I'll become

579
00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 1: this because I think the world has treated me this way.

580
00:32:49,440 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: There's such an irony to then becoming a billionaire who

581
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: kind of in many ways runs the world and not

582
00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:01,320
Speaker 1: having compassion for who might also be what you once were,

583
00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:04,000
Speaker 1: but instead being like, no, those people are trash.

584
00:33:04,200 --> 00:33:06,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, like what, well that's what you right?

585
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 2: We have pictures of you, yeah, we have with pictures

586
00:33:10,920 --> 00:33:16,000
Speaker 2: of Jeff Bezos as the sweetest little nerd. Yeah, so

587
00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:16,640
Speaker 2: so bizarre.

588
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 3: I think That's why I like the brass rail bars.

589
00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,680
Speaker 1: Just keep me in that pocket where I can just

590
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:25,360
Speaker 1: go get a beer in a pink glass.

591
00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 3: I don't want to run the world.

592
00:33:27,360 --> 00:33:30,960
Speaker 2: Don't limit yourself, Rory, oh lot, you can't. We want

593
00:33:30,960 --> 00:33:31,920
Speaker 2: you to run the world.

594
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:33,880
Speaker 3: I mean it'd be more fun.

595
00:33:34,120 --> 00:33:37,480
Speaker 1: I'll tell you that Burning Man wouldn't be just a week,

596
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:39,600
Speaker 1: it wouldn't be just one week in one location.

597
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:40,320
Speaker 3: I'll tell you that.

598
00:33:41,160 --> 00:33:49,880
Speaker 2: Welcome to Rory's world. All right, So how did we

599
00:33:49,920 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 2: get here? How did this epic crumble of a Wall

600
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:58,960
Speaker 2: Street titan occur? It starts in nineteen eighty two, when

601
00:33:59,200 --> 00:34:02,880
Speaker 2: Bowski took a brutal hit, losing sixty million dollars on

602
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 2: a bad deal. Again that that's a lot of money,

603
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 2: but it was way more back then. Uh. Suddenly, this

604
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 2: guy who always seemed to be one step ahead was underwater.

605
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:20,120
Speaker 2: And that's when the line started to blur. The pressure mounted,

606
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 2: the bets got darker, and Bosky crossed into insider trading.

607
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,440
Speaker 2: Is there anything more human than trying to recover from

608
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:32,759
Speaker 2: a humiliating loss by just immediately making a series of

609
00:34:32,840 --> 00:34:38,399
Speaker 2: worst decisions. It is true. It's our common bond. It's

610
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 2: such it makes us all human. Yeah, even on a

611
00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:47,040
Speaker 2: small scale. I just feel like like if you, you know,

612
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,640
Speaker 2: you spill something in your lap, and then your panic

613
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: makes you spill like some much older shit.

614
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 3: God. Yeah.

615
00:34:55,520 --> 00:34:59,480
Speaker 2: So now it's nineteen eighty five and Bosky's having an

616
00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: amazing year, and so were a lot of other savvy traders,

617
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: all raking in millions. In fact, they were winning so

618
00:35:07,160 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 2: hard that it was beginning to feel an awful lot

619
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 2: like somebody knew something somewhere that somehow was tipping off

620
00:35:15,680 --> 00:35:21,319
Speaker 2: those someone's with some slick insider gravy. Basically, regulators began

621
00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:25,600
Speaker 2: to suspect that the stench of insider information was bubbling

622
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 2: up from the sewage of these multimillion dollar deals. Quick

623
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:34,040
Speaker 2: Wall Street check in, do you understand what insider trading is?

624
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:36,960
Speaker 3: Yessexually I think so.

625
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: For instance, your example earlier about a business being acquired

626
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,239
Speaker 1: by another business and finding that out and deciding, all right,

627
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 1: let's buy low so we can sell high because we

628
00:35:45,880 --> 00:35:46,560
Speaker 1: know it's coming.

629
00:35:47,000 --> 00:35:47,200
Speaker 3: Right.

630
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:49,560
Speaker 2: So the honest way to do that is to just

631
00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:51,880
Speaker 2: do your research and your homework and try to figure

632
00:35:51,920 --> 00:35:54,880
Speaker 2: out which companies are going to get bought. The illegal

633
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 2: insider trading version is for someone who knows a company

634
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 2: is about to be bought to tell to like whisper

635
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,000
Speaker 2: it to you, so you can then go and buy

636
00:36:04,080 --> 00:36:06,800
Speaker 2: those shares, and then as soon as the company's bought

637
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: those the value of those shares just like rockets up.

638
00:36:10,920 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, it seems like it's very legal now because it

639
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: seems to occur quite often in including with Iran white House.

640
00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,799
Speaker 2: Yes, directly, well, it is. It's so ironic. And of

641
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:30,160
Speaker 2: course within Congress, so many Congress people have so much

642
00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:34,839
Speaker 2: access to what is considered inside information. Yes, because they

643
00:36:34,960 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: know about laws that are coming that will dramatically affect

644
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:43,120
Speaker 2: these various companies and industries, and they can invest accordingly,

645
00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 2: and they do, and it is so dark. And the

646
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: irony is that the Securities and Exchange Commission, which is

647
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 2: tasked with catching these people and bringing them to justice,

648
00:36:55,280 --> 00:37:00,719
Speaker 2: they now have incredible analytics and you know, tools to

649
00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:04,680
Speaker 2: catch people doing this stuff and to catch sort of

650
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: suspicious activity and then be able to research massive amounts

651
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 2: of data more quickly. Like the tools to catch these

652
00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:15,400
Speaker 2: people are better than ever, and yet it feels like

653
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 2: we're just swimming in it more than ever, which is insane.

654
00:37:19,200 --> 00:37:19,920
Speaker 3: All the time.

655
00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So these investigators back in the day,

656
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:26,120
Speaker 2: they thought they smelled something and they were exactly right.

657
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,680
Speaker 2: According to Fortune, it was in nineteen eighty five that

658
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,560
Speaker 2: the SEC began to unravel a tangled web, Beginning with

659
00:37:34,640 --> 00:37:39,239
Speaker 2: two Merrill Lynch employees in Venezuela. The SEC managed to

660
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: connect them to high profile investment banker Dennis Levine, among others,

661
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,400
Speaker 2: and it was Levine who then gave up the gossip

662
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 2: on Gordon Gek, I mean Ivan Boski. Levine had struck

663
00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,239
Speaker 2: a deal to cooperate with the US Attorney of the

664
00:37:58,239 --> 00:38:02,520
Speaker 2: Southern District of New York, who was wait for it,

665
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 2: Rudy Giuliani. Oh wow, this of course is pre mayoral,

666
00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:12,919
Speaker 2: pre disbarred, pre four seasons total landscaping Juliani.

667
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,040
Speaker 3: The four seasons thing will live forever.

668
00:38:17,239 --> 00:38:18,160
Speaker 2: Oh my god.

669
00:38:18,640 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 3: Just yeah. But then act like you meant to do it.

670
00:38:22,520 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 2: The abject stupidity of it all, and the it's so shocking, yeah,

671
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:30,799
Speaker 2: and shocking to think there was a time when he

672
00:38:30,880 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: was actually on the right side of things like this,

673
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:36,400
Speaker 2: was he was actually doing good work as the attorney

674
00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 2: for the Southern District of New York. It was yeah, yeah,

675
00:38:40,000 --> 00:38:44,920
Speaker 2: so Levine admitted to providing Boski with non public information

676
00:38:45,200 --> 00:38:49,760
Speaker 2: about pending deals, and this was enough to bring Bosky

677
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 2: in and they caught him red handed. Then, interestingly, Boski

678
00:38:55,520 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 2: would make a deal of his own with the Department

679
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: of Justice, and this would lower his prison sentence from

680
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,839
Speaker 2: five years to three. Not only did he wind up

681
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 2: paying a hundred million dollars, which at the time was

682
00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:12,600
Speaker 2: a record high penalty for for such criminal activity, he

683
00:39:12,760 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 2: also agreed to tattle on other traders by secretly recording

684
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:20,200
Speaker 2: them and turning them over to authorities.

685
00:39:21,239 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 3: He's one of those guys.

686
00:39:22,719 --> 00:39:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, hearked, he narked, he returned, he he did. He

687
00:39:27,920 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 2: did bad things and then tried to get off the

688
00:39:31,200 --> 00:39:38,240
Speaker 2: hook by doing bad things to other bad guys. I guess, yeah,

689
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:41,920
Speaker 2: And it's very morally ambiguous.

690
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 3: You didn't feel.

691
00:39:43,080 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 2: About it, Yeah, because you don't like rats. Rats are

692
00:39:45,640 --> 00:39:48,480
Speaker 2: like they're the worst, they're turncoats, but like, oftentimes they're

693
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:50,920
Speaker 2: on the morally and ethically correct side of things.

694
00:39:51,000 --> 00:39:54,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you should, you actually should admire them, but you're like, no.

695
00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:57,280
Speaker 2: No, now I respect you even less. Yeah, you should

696
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:59,560
Speaker 2: have been a criminal to begin with. Yeah, but now

697
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: that you are one leave the other criminals alone.

698
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:02,319
Speaker 3: Right.

699
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:07,080
Speaker 2: I think it's the it's the cynicism of it, right,

700
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,880
Speaker 2: It's like it's not coming from a good place. Right, Yeah, Yeah,

701
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:14,520
Speaker 2: there you go. The fall from grace was swift and merciless.

702
00:40:14,680 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 2: In the nineteen eighty six Times article, an unidentified friend

703
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 2: of Boski's is quoted he wanted so much to be accepted,

704
00:40:23,200 --> 00:40:26,839
Speaker 2: and he thought money was the only way. That's kind

705
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 2: of poignant, actually, said another investment banker, also unidentified, is

706
00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:34,800
Speaker 2: quoted as saying, I always knew he was a rat.

707
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: That's in Time magazine. I always knew he was a rat.

708
00:40:41,800 --> 00:40:45,880
Speaker 2: That's like so Shakespearean for to see money in your future.

709
00:40:46,160 --> 00:40:48,879
Speaker 2: The other guy so poignant and so intelligent and deep.

710
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:52,280
Speaker 2: Money isn't the path. Oh all right, well you're also

711
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:56,760
Speaker 2: a trader. You're also in investments. A few quick hits

712
00:40:56,560 --> 00:41:01,400
Speaker 2: on his swift downfall, his book merges Hermania, was immediately

713
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:05,040
Speaker 2: dropped by the publisher, Henry Holt and Company. He was

714
00:41:05,120 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: forced to scrap a plan to remodel his Westchester County

715
00:41:09,560 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: family home to mirror that of Thomas Jefferson's Monticello. A

716
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,080
Speaker 2: common goal for all, sure, I mean we all want

717
00:41:19,080 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 2: to get there. We all want we all want our

718
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:24,840
Speaker 2: homes to look like Monticello. Yeah, I mean what this

719
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:29,080
Speaker 2: is the Hubris Like Jesus. He was forced to withdraw

720
00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,840
Speaker 2: as a trustee at the American Ballet Theater. You know

721
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 2: that hurt. He had to cancel and rescind a one

722
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:37,719
Speaker 2: and a half million dollar grant to Princeton where his

723
00:41:37,800 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: son was attending. Who that's going to be hard on

724
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:40,919
Speaker 2: the sun?

725
00:41:41,360 --> 00:41:41,600
Speaker 3: Yeah?

726
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:47,399
Speaker 2: One crazy aside. John mulharn Junior, one of Boski's proteges,

727
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,239
Speaker 2: feared he himself was about to be implicated in the

728
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 2: scandal and allegedly loaded an assault rifle with the intent

729
00:41:54,680 --> 00:41:58,440
Speaker 2: of killing Bosky and his former head trader, but he

730
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:02,960
Speaker 2: was stopped en route. According to police. Oh wow, Bosky

731
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,280
Speaker 2: pissed some people off. Of course, he got prison time

732
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 2: and this massive fine. This is also interesting. Bosky was

733
00:42:10,000 --> 00:42:14,960
Speaker 2: permanently banned from work in the financial sector, never to

734
00:42:15,040 --> 00:42:19,880
Speaker 2: touch stocks, bonds, any kind of securities. Again, Rory, what

735
00:42:19,960 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: if you got banned from comedy?

736
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:26,640
Speaker 3: I was just I was literally going, what would I do? Yeah,

737
00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 3: what's my plan? B I don't know.

738
00:42:30,880 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 1: I think I'd open a coffee shop, or I'd try

739
00:42:34,560 --> 00:42:36,040
Speaker 1: to coach college soccer.

740
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,960
Speaker 2: That's cool, all right, that's actually those are both nights.

741
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:41,640
Speaker 2: You could do both.

742
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:43,879
Speaker 3: Actually, try to do both of those. I actually try

743
00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 3: to have both of those things.

744
00:42:44,760 --> 00:42:48,880
Speaker 1: A soccer catheic college soccer coffee place. Yeah, sure for

745
00:42:49,000 --> 00:42:52,319
Speaker 1: the team, like the peach pin in nine two. Well, so,

746
00:42:52,800 --> 00:42:59,320
Speaker 1: even having to pay this exorbitant penalty, Bosky was fine.

747
00:42:59,560 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 1: Like he's had a ton of money.

748
00:43:02,160 --> 00:43:06,600
Speaker 2: And after he was kicked off Wall Street, a lot

749
00:43:06,719 --> 00:43:10,479
Speaker 2: more regulations and rules were set up in the world

750
00:43:10,520 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 2: of finance to keep insider trading under control. Most notably

751
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,480
Speaker 2: was the addition of the Inside Trading and Securities Fraud

752
00:43:17,640 --> 00:43:21,719
Speaker 2: Enforcement Act of nineteen eighty eight. This act increased penalties

753
00:43:21,760 --> 00:43:26,000
Speaker 2: for insider trading, required firms to improve internal controls, and

754
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 2: introduced a bounty for informants. In April nineteen ninety, Boski

755
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:35,839
Speaker 2: was released for cooperating with the Feds, serving only two

756
00:43:36,080 --> 00:43:39,280
Speaker 2: of his three year sentence. Bosky would recede from public

757
00:43:39,400 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 2: view and live out his days in relative peace, having

758
00:43:42,440 --> 00:43:48,160
Speaker 2: passed away in May twenty twenty four. Forever a reminder, Yeah,

759
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: he just passed away a couple of years ago.

760
00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oh wow, Yeah.

761
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:54,160
Speaker 1: I gotta say, like, if he's getting out of it

762
00:43:54,200 --> 00:43:57,080
Speaker 1: with all that money, it's kind of like what a

763
00:43:57,200 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 1: great retirement. Sure you don't want to do two years

764
00:44:00,640 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 1: in prison, but now you're out of the game and

765
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: you still have enough money to just go and coast.

766
00:44:07,440 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 3: It's just coast till it's over.

767
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:12,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was. I'm sure he was in like

768
00:44:12,400 --> 00:44:17,120
Speaker 2: a relatively pleasant white collar prison too. It wasn't like that.

769
00:44:17,719 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 2: But here's what's interesting. A lot of people look at

770
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,719
Speaker 2: things like this, and and whatever side you're on, you

771
00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: might just be like, well, that's these are relatively victimless crimes,

772
00:44:28,560 --> 00:44:32,279
Speaker 2: right that they're They're just it's just numbers, it's just

773
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:36,000
Speaker 2: financial finagling, Like is anyone getting hurt. But the truth

774
00:44:36,080 --> 00:44:39,040
Speaker 2: is these deals that were happening in the eighties and

775
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:43,799
Speaker 2: on Wall Street, both the the the Raider, the sort

776
00:44:43,840 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: of corporate raider culture and all of this this short

777
00:44:48,080 --> 00:44:52,839
Speaker 2: buying and selling that was going on. These moves demolished

778
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: companies and put thousands of people out of work. That's

779
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,960
Speaker 2: part of the great story in Wall Street is the

780
00:44:59,040 --> 00:45:02,200
Speaker 2: Charlie Sheen's dad, played by his reel dad Martin Gene,

781
00:45:02,320 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 2: is a mechanic at this company that Gordon Gecko is

782
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:10,040
Speaker 2: about to you know, break apart and he's going to

783
00:45:10,120 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 2: lose his job, which is a very sort of personal,

784
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:16,040
Speaker 2: poignant depiction of what I'm talking about. Yeah, that these

785
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:19,640
Speaker 2: are not victimless crimes, that they there's a massive price

786
00:45:19,680 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: to be paid, and it's being paid by working class people.

787
00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: And so you know, one could argue that a two

788
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:33,080
Speaker 2: year prison sentence, Oh that feels fine, because all he

789
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: was doing is like pushing pencils around and like, you know,

790
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,640
Speaker 2: changing numbers. Maybe that's not fair, Maybe that's not enough,

791
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:39,239
Speaker 2: you know.

792
00:45:39,560 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I were just talking about earlier about how

793
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:45,879
Speaker 1: rampant it is now as a thing. You're like, oh god,

794
00:45:45,960 --> 00:45:48,520
Speaker 1: now it doesn't even like two years almost seems insane

795
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,120
Speaker 1: to get any kind of penalty whatsoever. And you're right,

796
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 1: it's the blue collar working class that pays for it.

797
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 2: That's our story. Rory scovell Any final thoughts reflections that

798
00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 2: it did it teach you anything about humanity?

799
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:05,960
Speaker 1: Well, I feel like I always knew there was this

800
00:46:06,200 --> 00:46:11,759
Speaker 1: evil out there, this greed, but you having quoted that

801
00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:15,600
Speaker 1: speech does make me feel like, what's the harm in

802
00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: getting my hands a little dirty for just a couple

803
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 1: months even you know what I mean, You can do okay,

804
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:26,080
Speaker 1: I got a little cash on the side.

805
00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:31,160
Speaker 2: You can be greedy and still feel good about yourself.

806
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:36,400
Speaker 2: That is the lesson here, Yes, that's what I want

807
00:46:37,200 --> 00:46:40,400
Speaker 2: to your point though, I really like that you're connecting

808
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:46,239
Speaker 2: it to this moment because the playbook hasn't changed since then.

809
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:51,719
Speaker 2: Right Bosky believed winning proved he was right, And once

810
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:56,479
Speaker 2: you convince yourself of that, the rules feel optional, which

811
00:46:56,560 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 2: is very much the energy of this Trump administration.

812
00:47:00,000 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 3: It's so much of it.

813
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:03,960
Speaker 2: And if you if you win, if you're just winning,

814
00:47:04,360 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: if you're just making libs cry, then then you don't

815
00:47:09,640 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 2: actually have to adhere to any standards or rules or

816
00:47:12,600 --> 00:47:15,400
Speaker 2: frameworks or even the fucking Constitution.

817
00:47:15,719 --> 00:47:16,880
Speaker 3: I know, I know.

818
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,960
Speaker 1: It's it's certainly a lesson in how critical these institutions

819
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: to a degree are, not that they can't all be improved,

820
00:47:25,840 --> 00:47:29,680
Speaker 1: but we're learning that if you demolish any of these institutions,

821
00:47:30,440 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: you're up against a whole new a whole new beast

822
00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: of rebuild. If you get the chance, if you get

823
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: the chance to rebuild.

824
00:47:39,040 --> 00:47:42,520
Speaker 2: If if yeah, if we're lucky enough, yeah to come

825
00:47:42,600 --> 00:47:45,200
Speaker 2: back in some way and build it back.

826
00:47:45,040 --> 00:47:50,120
Speaker 1: Better, stronger, more rules, more regulations. Yeah, more accountability, but yeah,

827
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 1: I think as individuals, if we don't have, if we

828
00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,640
Speaker 1: don't care about accountability, then none of it can hold up.

829
00:47:56,280 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 2: I'll tell you what's interesting. Having done tons of these

830
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: stories about about major snaffoos, and so many of them

831
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:08,920
Speaker 2: are the result of darker forces in human nature, the

832
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:14,640
Speaker 2: one thing that rarely happens is accountability of any kind.

833
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 2: And in this case, even two years of prison is like,

834
00:48:18,640 --> 00:48:22,520
Speaker 2: thank god, he got something like It's just it feels

835
00:48:22,560 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 2: like a little small morsel of justice, not like full justice.

836
00:48:26,880 --> 00:48:28,760
Speaker 3: Slap on the wrist, Roy Schohold.

837
00:48:28,880 --> 00:48:31,920
Speaker 2: This has been an absolute delight and a pleasure.

838
00:48:32,080 --> 00:48:34,200
Speaker 3: Oh my god, thanks for inviting me. I appreciate it.

839
00:48:34,200 --> 00:48:35,399
Speaker 3: That was a fun road to go down.

840
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:39,840
Speaker 2: All right, we'll see out there. Snafu is a production

841
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:44,200
Speaker 2: of Ihearts Podcasts and Snafu Media, a partnership between Film

842
00:48:44,280 --> 00:48:48,239
Speaker 2: Nation Entertainment and Pacific Electric Picture Company, post production and

843
00:48:48,280 --> 00:48:52,200
Speaker 2: creative support from good Egg Audio. Our executive producers are

844
00:48:52,280 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: me Ed Helms, Mike Falbo, Glenn Basner, Andy Kim, and

845
00:48:56,360 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 2: Dylan Fagan. This episode was produced by Alyssa Martino and

846
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,480
Speaker 2: Tory Smith. Our managing producer is Carl Nellis. Our video

847
00:49:04,600 --> 00:49:08,720
Speaker 2: editor is Jared Smith. Technical direction and engineering from Nick Dooley.

848
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 2: Additional story editing from Carl Nellis. Our creative executive is

849
00:49:12,719 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 2: Brett Harris. Logo and branding by Matt Gosson and the

850
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: Collected Works. Legal review from Dan Welsh, Meghan Halson and

851
00:49:21,160 --> 00:49:25,840
Speaker 2: Caroline Johnson. Special thanks to Isaac Dunham, Adam Horn, Lane Kline,

852
00:49:25,960 --> 00:49:30,120
Speaker 2: and everyone at iHeart Podcasts, but especially Will Pearson, Kerry

853
00:49:30,160 --> 00:49:33,840
Speaker 2: Lieberman and Nikki Ator. While I have you, don't forget

854
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,800
Speaker 2: to pick up a copy of my book, Snaffoo, The

855
00:49:36,880 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: Definitive Guide to History's Greatest screw Ups. It's available now

856
00:49:40,680 --> 00:49:45,800
Speaker 2: from any book retailer. Just go to Snaffoo dashbook dot com.

857
00:49:46,120 --> 00:49:48,399
Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and see you next week.