1 00:00:04,480 --> 00:00:07,480 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld. In his new book The 2 00:00:07,600 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: Case for Nukes, How we Can Beat Global Warming and 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:14,880 Speaker 1: create a free, open, and magnificent future, Doctor Robert Zubrin 4 00:00:14,960 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: makes a very strong case at opposing nuclear energy and 5 00:00:18,680 --> 00:00:21,040 Speaker 1: driving up its cost has turned out to be the 6 00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:25,800 Speaker 1: wrong choice given the current importance of reducing carbon emissions globally. 7 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,720 Speaker 1: As he very clearly explains, we already have the technology 8 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: to provide human civilization with unlimited and clean energy. Here 9 00:00:34,320 --> 00:00:37,320 Speaker 1: to discuss his new book, I'm really pleased to welcome 10 00:00:37,360 --> 00:00:40,559 Speaker 1: back my guest and good friend, Robert Zubrin. He's the 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: president of Pioneer Astronautics, an aerospace research and development company 12 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,479 Speaker 1: in Colorado, the founder and president of the Mars Society, 13 00:00:48,840 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: and a former staff engineer at Lockheed Martin Astronautics. Robert, 14 00:01:03,000 --> 00:01:05,680 Speaker 1: welcome back, and thank you for joining me in news World. No. 15 00:01:05,720 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: One to remind our listeners, this is the second time 16 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 1: you've joined me. We last spoke in June twenty twenty 17 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: one about why SpaceX's Starship will change everything. So it's 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: so usual, you're right at the cutting edge. Why don't 19 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,920 Speaker 1: you start Because you're so broadly informed and so broadly intelligent. 20 00:01:24,280 --> 00:01:27,000 Speaker 1: How did you get here? What was your track and 21 00:01:27,120 --> 00:01:31,000 Speaker 1: your growth personally that gets you to where you are today? Well, 22 00:01:31,200 --> 00:01:35,119 Speaker 1: my doctorate actually is in nuclear engineering, and I worked 23 00:01:35,200 --> 00:01:39,279 Speaker 1: in the nuclear field before I worked in aerospace. And 24 00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,920 Speaker 1: I was originally hired by then Martin Marietta which is 25 00:01:42,920 --> 00:01:46,560 Speaker 1: now Ackied Martin, to do some nuclear space propulsion stuff 26 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 1: for them, and then when that contract ended, I moved 27 00:01:49,600 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 1: on to other areas of aerospace, which is how I 28 00:01:52,000 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 1: have spent most of my career in diverse areas of aerospace. 29 00:01:56,320 --> 00:02:00,120 Speaker 1: But me and nuclear power go way back. And in 30 00:02:00,160 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 1: the eighties when I was in graduate school, i'd have 31 00:02:03,440 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: debates with the Sierra Club, which was trying to stop 32 00:02:06,680 --> 00:02:10,480 Speaker 1: the building of nuclear power plants in Washington State where 33 00:02:10,560 --> 00:02:15,520 Speaker 1: they had a major nuclear power industry. And you know, 34 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:18,200 Speaker 1: here's the Sierra Club are always going on about how 35 00:02:18,639 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: we have to stop pollution and the smoke and we're 36 00:02:21,280 --> 00:02:23,840 Speaker 1: going to run out of fuel. And I would say, well, 37 00:02:23,919 --> 00:02:27,239 Speaker 1: nuclear power has no smoke and you will never run out, 38 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,160 Speaker 1: and they'd say, we hate that, and then it would 39 00:02:31,200 --> 00:02:35,160 Speaker 1: mystify me, and then I finally realized something, which is 40 00:02:35,240 --> 00:02:39,680 Speaker 1: why did they hate nuclear power more? Than the fossil fuels, 41 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,639 Speaker 1: given the oil slicks that could kill all the coastal 42 00:02:43,680 --> 00:02:46,280 Speaker 1: wildlife and everybody. They hate nuclear power more than that. 43 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: Why And it is because it would solve a problem 44 00:02:51,560 --> 00:02:57,560 Speaker 1: that they need to have, okay. And so then I 45 00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: actually then went researching it, and I looked into the past. 46 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 1: And now, in the sixties, nuclear power wasn't really that 47 00:03:05,480 --> 00:03:08,120 Speaker 1: big a factor. I mean, we started to have some plants, 48 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: but it was mostly something for the future, and half 49 00:03:11,720 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 1: of them were for it, though mostly as a bit 50 00:03:13,639 --> 00:03:15,640 Speaker 1: of a straw horse, or we don't need this cold plant, 51 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: we don't need a new oil plant, because we're going 52 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:20,079 Speaker 1: to have nuclear power someday. But then when nuclear power 53 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: really started coming on in the early seventies and in 54 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 1: the early seventies, we were getting orders for a major 55 00:03:25,960 --> 00:03:30,040 Speaker 1: new nuclear power plant every two weeks. We were getting 56 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:32,400 Speaker 1: twice a month water for a nuclear power that's how 57 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:37,120 Speaker 1: fast it was coming on. And then they switched and 58 00:03:37,280 --> 00:03:39,840 Speaker 1: in their statement which finally came out in nineteen seventy 59 00:03:39,840 --> 00:03:42,560 Speaker 1: four in which they came out against nuclear power, the 60 00:03:42,680 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 1: Sierra Club said we must a post nuclear power because 61 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 1: it would encourage unnecessary economic growth. That was the thing, 62 00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,640 Speaker 1: and then the issue of the waste. They said, we're 63 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,240 Speaker 1: going to use the waste issue as a way to 64 00:03:59,320 --> 00:04:03,080 Speaker 1: stop near power, because if we can stop the storage 65 00:04:03,200 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: of civilian nuclear waste will create an insolvable problem for 66 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: the industry. So they then went and they convinced Jimmy 67 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: Carter to ban the planned sub seabed disposal of nuclear waste, 68 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:17,159 Speaker 1: which was the easiest way to do it. And then 69 00:04:17,240 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: he went and said, oh, we're going to put it 70 00:04:19,080 --> 00:04:21,479 Speaker 1: all under a mountain in Nevada and create this multi 71 00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:25,280 Speaker 1: billion dollar project. But then they opposed even then, and 72 00:04:25,360 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: here these people who claim that they're concerned about public 73 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,719 Speaker 1: safety from radioactive waste, saying we should keep it in 74 00:04:32,400 --> 00:04:36,400 Speaker 1: the suburbs of major cities at the nuclear power plants themselves, 75 00:04:36,680 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: rather than putting it under a mountain in the desert Nevada. 76 00:04:40,279 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: So it's been a dodge. And then they prevailed on 77 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: the Carter administration to create this NRC, the Nuclear Regulatory Commission, 78 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: and along with it an extremely convoluted regulatory structure. And 79 00:04:53,920 --> 00:04:57,320 Speaker 1: in the book, I have a diagram showing the flow 80 00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: chart of what you have to go through to get 81 00:04:59,120 --> 00:05:02,719 Speaker 1: a nuclear power approved, and it looks like a map 82 00:05:02,760 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 1: of a New York subway system, and each of those 83 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:10,159 Speaker 1: subway stops include an entire subway stop in themselves a 84 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,039 Speaker 1: subway map. And so, for instance, importantly that one of 85 00:05:14,080 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: those stops is the Environmental Protection Agency, and they will 86 00:05:17,600 --> 00:05:20,719 Speaker 1: not only demand proof that this thing isn't going to pollute, 87 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,040 Speaker 1: but they will demand proof that the nuclear power plant 88 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,200 Speaker 1: is necessary and the utility was correct in building it 89 00:05:28,240 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 1: instead of a cold plant, a gas plant, or no plant. 90 00:05:31,839 --> 00:05:34,240 Speaker 1: And imagine if you have some landing you want to 91 00:05:34,240 --> 00:05:36,320 Speaker 1: build a log cabin on it, and you have to 92 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:38,599 Speaker 1: go to the authorities to get a permit, and you 93 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,719 Speaker 1: show them the plans that it's a safe house, and 94 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: they say, but proof to us that this shouldn't be 95 00:05:43,880 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: a chalet or an a frame, or a cape cod 96 00:05:46,400 --> 00:05:48,839 Speaker 1: or a candy store or a zoo. And you have 97 00:05:48,920 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: to prove that, and then somehow you convince the mayor 98 00:05:51,360 --> 00:05:54,760 Speaker 1: that you're right. But now interveners can come in and 99 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:57,359 Speaker 1: contest his decision, and now you have to go to court, 100 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: and then if you win in court, they appeal the court. So, 101 00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:05,200 Speaker 1: for instance, yesterday in your state of Georgia, they just 102 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,200 Speaker 1: commissioned a nuclear power plant, Big One, and it's great. 103 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,240 Speaker 1: It finally came online. It took fourteen years to build 104 00:06:12,960 --> 00:06:15,799 Speaker 1: the first civilian nuclear power plant we had in this country. 105 00:06:15,880 --> 00:06:19,440 Speaker 1: Shipping port in Pennsylvania took three years. So the time 106 00:06:19,520 --> 00:06:23,280 Speaker 1: it has taken to build a plant has quintupled. With experience, 107 00:06:23,400 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: the time should have gone down, but with the regulatory burden, 108 00:06:27,880 --> 00:06:30,880 Speaker 1: the time has quintupled. And as I show in the 109 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: data in the book, the cost of a nuclear power 110 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:38,720 Speaker 1: plant has gone up as the time squared, because not 111 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: only do you have more time that you're spending paying 112 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,080 Speaker 1: the workers to sit around doing nothing instead of building things, 113 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 1: but there's a lot more people get into the game, 114 00:06:48,520 --> 00:06:50,400 Speaker 1: and like lawyers, you got to pay them a lot 115 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 1: more than plumbers. So it just gets exponential. And this 116 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: is what has hamstrung nuclear power in the United States. 117 00:06:56,720 --> 00:07:01,280 Speaker 1: When you write the case for nukes, the net advantage 118 00:07:01,279 --> 00:07:05,520 Speaker 1: of nukes over alternative sources of energy, well, first of all, 119 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: well the advantage over the so called renewables, which it 120 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:12,440 Speaker 1: really should be called the unreliables, is that it's reliable 121 00:07:12,480 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: and available in quantity. You cannot power in industrial society 122 00:07:17,800 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 1: with intermittent power and I mean, look, I love wind power. 123 00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 1: It enabled the growth of civilization by powering sailing ships 124 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,360 Speaker 1: that established global trade networks. So it's a fantastic source 125 00:07:29,400 --> 00:07:32,600 Speaker 1: of energy for off grid power at small scale, and 126 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:35,800 Speaker 1: solar energy. Well, it's also a nice for off grid 127 00:07:35,840 --> 00:07:40,280 Speaker 1: power in space. But even in nineteenth century America, we 128 00:07:40,320 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: had to get beyond sale. It's why America invented the 129 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:46,560 Speaker 1: steamboat and the high pressure steam engine that then made 130 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 1: railroads possible. Already in the early nineteenth century, wind was 131 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,880 Speaker 1: proving inadequate, and solar biomass, which is solar energy in 132 00:07:55,920 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: another form, it's inadequate. So we went to fossil fuels, 133 00:07:59,560 --> 00:08:03,200 Speaker 1: and US fuels have done an enormous amount for human 134 00:08:03,240 --> 00:08:09,280 Speaker 1: civilization by making reliable energy available at scale and actually 135 00:08:09,320 --> 00:08:13,080 Speaker 1: saving nature. You know who save the whales was Rockefeller 136 00:08:13,520 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 1: because the whales were being hunted to extinction for whale oil, 137 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:21,320 Speaker 1: and by replacing it with petroleum boom, that industry wasn't 138 00:08:21,360 --> 00:08:24,520 Speaker 1: quite wiped out, but it was reduced a hundredfold in size, 139 00:08:24,600 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: and thus there are still whales. Because the fossil fuels 140 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 1: have less impact on nature than whale hunting or cutting 141 00:08:33,600 --> 00:08:36,840 Speaker 1: down forests and killing all the animals in a forest 142 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: to cut it down. Well, nuclear power has much less 143 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,560 Speaker 1: involvement with nature's still, nuclear power taps a resource which 144 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 1: natural systems do not address in any way whatsoever. And 145 00:08:47,280 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: so if you want to be a friend of nature, 146 00:08:49,720 --> 00:08:52,880 Speaker 1: you want to use stuff that nature doesn't use. To 147 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,000 Speaker 1: preserve the natural, we need to create the artificial. So 148 00:08:56,720 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: with nuclear power, one of the arguments I here is 149 00:09:00,320 --> 00:09:05,040 Speaker 1: that there's a whole new generation of smaller, dramatically safer, 150 00:09:05,640 --> 00:09:09,040 Speaker 1: and less expensive nuclear power plants. Is that part of 151 00:09:09,040 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 1: the future or do you think very, very large, centralized 152 00:09:12,080 --> 00:09:15,880 Speaker 1: plants will remain the dominant form. That's part of the future. 153 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:20,120 Speaker 1: And I give the Biden administration a limited amount of 154 00:09:20,200 --> 00:09:23,640 Speaker 1: credit for continuing a policy that had been begun by 155 00:09:23,679 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: the Trump administration to allocate a certain amount of money 156 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: that's going to entrepreneurial companies to develop new types of 157 00:09:31,040 --> 00:09:34,520 Speaker 1: nuclear power plants. And it's like ten million here, ten 158 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:38,280 Speaker 1: million there. It's not gigantic money, but it's something, and 159 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: they're doing it, and that's fine. But the problem with 160 00:09:41,720 --> 00:09:45,040 Speaker 1: this argument is that it's being used as a dodge 161 00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:47,680 Speaker 1: of saying, well, we're for nuclear power when we have 162 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,920 Speaker 1: a new type of nuclear power. We're not for the 163 00:09:51,000 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 1: kind of nuclear power that we actually have now. Now 164 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:58,520 Speaker 1: here's the thing. It is true that the nuclear power 165 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:02,719 Speaker 1: plants we have now are really copies, not changed very 166 00:10:02,800 --> 00:10:06,120 Speaker 1: much from the pressurized water reactor that was introduced by 167 00:10:06,240 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: Ricover in the nineteen fifties. And there's two reasons for that. 168 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: One is it was a solid design. It's a very 169 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:16,959 Speaker 1: good design. It's inherently safe. You cannot have a runaway 170 00:10:17,000 --> 00:10:20,000 Speaker 1: fission reactor in the pressurized water reactor because the water 171 00:10:20,080 --> 00:10:23,480 Speaker 1: is both the coolant and is necessary to sustain the 172 00:10:23,600 --> 00:10:27,560 Speaker 1: nuclear fission chain reaction itself, and so if the coolant 173 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,600 Speaker 1: goes away, the reaction goes away. And this is what 174 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 1: ric oversaw and it was true, then it's true now. 175 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: And as a result, there've been over a thousand pressurized 176 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: water reactors on land or sea over the past sixty 177 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,160 Speaker 1: years and not a single person has ever been harmed 178 00:10:41,200 --> 00:10:44,920 Speaker 1: by a radiological release from any of them. That said, 179 00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: there could be improvements. We could go to breeder reactors, 180 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:53,800 Speaker 1: for example, which get over ninety percent of the energy 181 00:10:53,800 --> 00:10:55,880 Speaker 1: out of the uranium instead of the one percent that 182 00:10:56,080 --> 00:11:00,160 Speaker 1: the pressurized water reactors get. We could go au thorium reactors, 183 00:11:00,240 --> 00:11:03,319 Speaker 1: which use a cheaper fuel. We could go with the 184 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: small modular reactors, which are more susceptible to mass production. 185 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:10,400 Speaker 1: And so it's great that we've got some startup companies, 186 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: actually quite a few, that are pursuing some of these things. 187 00:11:13,640 --> 00:11:15,640 Speaker 1: But the problem I see here is that if the 188 00:11:15,720 --> 00:11:19,240 Speaker 1: regulatory structure remains hostile, it's even going to be harder 189 00:11:19,280 --> 00:11:22,160 Speaker 1: to get a new type of nuclear power licensed than 190 00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,000 Speaker 1: the traditional ones because the traditional ones, at least the 191 00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:27,360 Speaker 1: regulators are fully familiar with them. With the new ones, 192 00:11:27,360 --> 00:11:29,720 Speaker 1: they're going to say, well, we don't know about this. 193 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:33,080 Speaker 1: You're cooling this breeder reactor with liquid metal. Can't sodium 194 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,040 Speaker 1: catch on fire? It can't. Yeah, now there are answers 195 00:11:36,040 --> 00:11:38,520 Speaker 1: to that argument, but believe me, they're going to come 196 00:11:38,600 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: up with a lot more what ifs on new reactors 197 00:11:41,280 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: than they do with the old reactors. It seemed to 198 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: be from a popular culture standpoint that there are three 199 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 1: things you have to be able to answer. The first 200 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:06,520 Speaker 1: in which I thought had an impact on the whole 201 00:12:07,360 --> 00:12:11,000 Speaker 1: psychology of nuclear power was the movie The China Syndrome, 202 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 1: and the whole idea that it could go so dramatically 203 00:12:14,960 --> 00:12:18,760 Speaker 1: critical that it would sort of burn through the total nonsense. 204 00:12:18,800 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 1: But it was a very powerful movie. To what extent 205 00:12:21,200 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 1: do you think that's no longer relevant, Well, the argument 206 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,800 Speaker 1: is still relevant. The technically consideration is not relevant or 207 00:12:29,120 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 1: not relevant to the extent that was represented. It is 208 00:12:31,960 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: true that a pressurized water reactor, while I cannot have 209 00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,360 Speaker 1: a runaway fission reaction, if the coolant goes away, the 210 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: reaction stops, but there's still heat being released in the fuel. 211 00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:44,360 Speaker 1: If the reactor has been running for some time, it's 212 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: got radioactive waste in the fuel, and this is releasing heat. 213 00:12:48,679 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: And if you turn a reactor off, it within milliseconds 214 00:12:53,160 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: will go from one hundred percent power to seven percent power, 215 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: and that seven percent is the decay heat from the radionucleons, 216 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: and that will decay down further within hours to like 217 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: one percent. But in the meantime, if you're not cooling 218 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,880 Speaker 1: the reactor, that can actually melt the fuel. And what 219 00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:13,319 Speaker 1: the anti nukes said was, well, it's not being cooled, 220 00:13:13,320 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: it's going to melt the fuel, and then it's going 221 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: to melt its way through the eight inch thick steel 222 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:20,320 Speaker 1: pressure vessel containing the fuel and then it will melt 223 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:23,640 Speaker 1: its way through the eight foot thick concrete containment building 224 00:13:23,720 --> 00:13:26,480 Speaker 1: containing the whole reactor system, and then it will melt 225 00:13:26,520 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: its way through the Earth to the center of the Earth, 226 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: and then sort of counter physics, it would then go 227 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,160 Speaker 1: anti gravity up the other side of the Earth and 228 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,800 Speaker 1: all the way to China, where it would emerge into 229 00:13:36,800 --> 00:13:39,920 Speaker 1: someone's rice paddy. So this was called the China syndrome. 230 00:13:39,960 --> 00:13:42,600 Speaker 1: And yes, there was a movie starring Jane Fonda which 231 00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: featured exactly such an accident, and coincidentally, and I do 232 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: believe this was a coincidenial, though conspiracy theorists argue otherwise, 233 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:54,120 Speaker 1: this movie was released the very same month that exactly 234 00:13:54,120 --> 00:13:57,720 Speaker 1: such an accident happened at Three Mile Island, Pennsylvania. Now, 235 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 1: except that what happened three Mile Island there was operator 236 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: error and the coolant was trained out of the reactor, 237 00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:06,480 Speaker 1: and yeah, the reaction stopped, but they had a meltdown. 238 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:09,079 Speaker 1: But instead of it melting all the way to China, 239 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:12,040 Speaker 1: it melted about one inch into the eight inch thick 240 00:14:12,120 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: steel pressure vessel and then it stopped. It didn't make 241 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:17,600 Speaker 1: it through the pressure vessel, let alone the containment building, 242 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,040 Speaker 1: let alone the Earth, and there was a very small 243 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:24,720 Speaker 1: amount of radioiodion had to be vented enough to give 244 00:14:24,760 --> 00:14:27,080 Speaker 1: the people in the vicinity the same radiation dose that 245 00:14:27,120 --> 00:14:28,840 Speaker 1: they would have gotten had they gone and spent the 246 00:14:28,840 --> 00:14:32,720 Speaker 1: weekend in Colorado, where you have higher levels of background 247 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,880 Speaker 1: radiation than you do in Pennsylvania, and there are no 248 00:14:35,960 --> 00:14:39,160 Speaker 1: higher cancer levels in Colorado than Pennsylvania. In fact, less, 249 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: Three Mile Island was the only mega disaster in human 250 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,440 Speaker 1: history in which not a single person was hurt. Yeah, 251 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: my father at one time was a security officer at 252 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:50,680 Speaker 1: Three Mile Islands. My grandmother lived in Royalton, which you 253 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: could physically see Three Mile Island from where her house was. 254 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,480 Speaker 1: The gap between the hysteria and the reality was amazing. 255 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:00,720 Speaker 1: We actually did a mo be called we have the 256 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 1: Power Glisten I did, and we went up and filmed 257 00:15:03,600 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: a throm a Island because the other reactor is still operating, 258 00:15:06,960 --> 00:15:10,600 Speaker 1: it's still producing power, but you know, as a result 259 00:15:10,640 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: of the hysteria, they shut that reactor down for a 260 00:15:13,280 --> 00:15:16,720 Speaker 1: number of years. The second reactor, which was unhurt and 261 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:19,360 Speaker 1: as a result, a lot of coal had to be burnt, 262 00:15:19,920 --> 00:15:22,720 Speaker 1: which coal does cause a certain amount of pollution, especially 263 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: for talking nineteen eighties technology. So there are probably several 264 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 1: thousand cancer deaths caused as a result of the NRC 265 00:15:30,120 --> 00:15:33,520 Speaker 1: shutting down the second three mile Island plan. Now, the 266 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: much bigger and more spectacular problem was Chernobyl. How do 267 00:15:37,200 --> 00:15:40,160 Speaker 1: you explain Chernobyl in the context of your commitment to 268 00:15:40,240 --> 00:15:43,119 Speaker 1: nuclear power. Chernobyl, first of all, was not a pressurized 269 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:48,880 Speaker 1: water reactor. Chernobyl was a graphite moderated reactor. Pressurized water reactor, 270 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:53,320 Speaker 1: if it gets too hot, the water boils too furiously, 271 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,280 Speaker 1: and now there's holes in the water and it can't 272 00:15:56,280 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: slow down the neutrons, which is needed to sustain the reaction, 273 00:16:00,080 --> 00:16:04,120 Speaker 1: so it shuts down. Graphite doesn't boil. Now, you can 274 00:16:04,320 --> 00:16:09,920 Speaker 1: actually design a graphite reactor to have its reactivity be 275 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: reduced if it gets too hot, but it's much harder 276 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: than with water, and in fact, that was not the 277 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,080 Speaker 1: case with this Soviet reactor. This Soviet reactor had what's 278 00:16:20,120 --> 00:16:23,920 Speaker 1: called a positive coefficient of reactivity. The hotter it get, 279 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,920 Speaker 1: the faster the reaction would go, and it was unstable. 280 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: So this was a design that absolutely never could have 281 00:16:30,320 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 1: gotten licensed in any civilized country. And furthermore, they didn't 282 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,720 Speaker 1: even have a containment building around the reactor. So what 283 00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 1: happened was they did this goofy experiment which they pulled 284 00:16:41,520 --> 00:16:44,120 Speaker 1: the rods and they sent the reactivity up and then 285 00:16:44,120 --> 00:16:46,080 Speaker 1: it had a runaway so it actually did have a 286 00:16:46,160 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: runaway chain reaction. Now it was not a bomb, because 287 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:52,840 Speaker 1: a bomb not only you have to have a runaway 288 00:16:52,920 --> 00:16:55,520 Speaker 1: chain reaction, the chain reaction has to run away so 289 00:16:55,640 --> 00:16:59,400 Speaker 1: fast that it releases the energy into uranium before the 290 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,680 Speaker 1: thing can assembled and shut down the reaction. Now, Chernobyl 291 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: was not a bomb, It was a reactor. So it 292 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 1: disassembled with only a small amount of the nuclear yield 293 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:13,960 Speaker 1: being released, but that yield was enough to blow the 294 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:17,639 Speaker 1: building apart. And now you've got this reactor which has 295 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,959 Speaker 1: been blown open, and it's made of hot red hot graphite, 296 00:17:22,200 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 1: which can now catch fire because it's exposed to the atmosphere. 297 00:17:25,720 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: So that reactor was not only unstable, it was flammable. 298 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,919 Speaker 1: And if they had even had a containment building around Chernobyl, 299 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:36,560 Speaker 1: not much would have happened. They would have lost the reactor, 300 00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:38,920 Speaker 1: but there would have been no significant release to the environment. 301 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,760 Speaker 1: Now what happened at Chernobyl, then the entire radio inventory 302 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,040 Speaker 1: of the plant then goes up into the fire and 303 00:17:46,200 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 1: is dispersed to the environment, and it released an amount 304 00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:54,119 Speaker 1: of fallout comparable to the Hiroshima bomb. Now that said, 305 00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,199 Speaker 1: if you want to know, no people at Hiroshimo were 306 00:17:57,280 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: killed by fallout. They were all killed by the blast 307 00:17:59,600 --> 00:18:03,760 Speaker 1: or the radio flash of the bomb itself. The fallout 308 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: itself didn't kill anybody, and the Chernobyl fallout was about equivalent. Now, 309 00:18:10,359 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: there's a theory called the linear threshold theory that regulators used, 310 00:18:15,920 --> 00:18:18,880 Speaker 1: and it was actually invented by a very odd duck 311 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:22,680 Speaker 1: named Hermann Muller, who was a communist. And when I 312 00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: say it was a communist, I don't just mean he 313 00:18:24,680 --> 00:18:26,760 Speaker 1: was a professor who liked to go to coffee shops 314 00:18:26,760 --> 00:18:29,800 Speaker 1: and listen to communist folk songs. I mean he knew Stalin. 315 00:18:30,119 --> 00:18:32,879 Speaker 1: And this guy came up with this theory called linear 316 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,560 Speaker 1: no threshold, which is that the danger from a radio 317 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:40,679 Speaker 1: dose is in proportion to the dose. So if a 318 00:18:40,760 --> 00:18:44,760 Speaker 1: thousand rims of radiation will kill you, then ten rims 319 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,560 Speaker 1: has a one percent chance of killing you, and one 320 00:18:47,640 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: rim has a tenth of a percent chance of killing you. 321 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:52,440 Speaker 1: So that if a thousand people each get one rim, 322 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:56,959 Speaker 1: one person's going to die. Now, this is a false theory. 323 00:18:57,440 --> 00:19:00,359 Speaker 1: It's like saying, if you drink a thousand glass of 324 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:03,320 Speaker 1: wine and one night, then if you drink one glass 325 00:19:03,320 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: of wine, does a one percent chance it's going to 326 00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 1: kill you? Or if one hundred people each drink one 327 00:19:07,840 --> 00:19:10,200 Speaker 1: glass of wine, one person is going to die, which 328 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 1: is simply false. It's just not how things work. And 329 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,440 Speaker 1: yet this is how the regulators should do it. Now, 330 00:19:15,440 --> 00:19:18,479 Speaker 1: if you take this theory in which you take lots 331 00:19:18,480 --> 00:19:21,919 Speaker 1: of small doses too small to be harmful to anyone, 332 00:19:21,960 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: and you say they add up, then you get a 333 00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:27,960 Speaker 1: number that four thousand people would have died from Chernobyl. 334 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,560 Speaker 1: There's no proof that this happened, but this is a 335 00:19:31,600 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: theoretical number that comes from this theory. But in fact, 336 00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 1: four thousand people die from pollution from fossil fuels every 337 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:43,560 Speaker 1: day in China. You'd have to have a Chernobyl every 338 00:19:43,720 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: day to have a body count comparable to what is 339 00:19:48,320 --> 00:19:51,280 Speaker 1: caused by the coal fire power plants in China that 340 00:19:51,359 --> 00:19:54,920 Speaker 1: have no pollution control systems or anything of this sort. 341 00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: Did the Russians learn from all that and did they 342 00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:02,040 Speaker 1: change their designs? Not really, no. I mean there was 343 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: a level of incompetence associated with Chernobyl that boggles the mind. 344 00:20:05,920 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: For example, the Soviet Union had an extensive civil defense program. 345 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 1: They were prepared to fight a nuclear war, and so 346 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:21,280 Speaker 1: they had large supplies of iodine that was in shelters 347 00:20:21,359 --> 00:20:24,080 Speaker 1: all over the place, so that if there was fallout 348 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: they could give these pills to everybody. They didn't distribute them. 349 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:32,360 Speaker 1: They were actually prepared to deal with nuclear fab so 350 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:37,080 Speaker 1: the civil defense bureaucracy didn't interact with nuclear power of bureaucracy, right, 351 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: or maybe the people in Moscow thought if we distributed 352 00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:42,639 Speaker 1: this it would be admitting that something had gone wrong. 353 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 1: I think that's probably what happened, because these kinds of 354 00:20:46,320 --> 00:20:49,000 Speaker 1: people never want to admit. Of all the years you've 355 00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:51,680 Speaker 1: had nuclear plants all over the planet, those are really 356 00:20:51,760 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 1: the only two occasions that stand out. Well, there's one more, 357 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: of course, which is Fukushima. Now, Fukushima, those were pressurized reactors. 358 00:21:01,240 --> 00:21:04,439 Speaker 1: Now the entire city of Fukushima was destroyed by a 359 00:21:04,520 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: tidal wave in earthquake. Twenty eight thousand people were killed 360 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:15,600 Speaker 1: by crashing buildings, buying, drowning, and related causes. Not three 361 00:21:15,640 --> 00:21:19,240 Speaker 1: of the nuclear power plants were destroyed, but there was 362 00:21:19,320 --> 00:21:23,040 Speaker 1: no radiological release of consequence. Not a single person outside 363 00:21:23,040 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: the plant gate was exposed to a radiological dose of 364 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:31,560 Speaker 1: any significance. So here you have a natural disaster of 365 00:21:31,880 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: enormous magnitude in which the entire city is destroyed, including 366 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,920 Speaker 1: three nuclear power plants, but there's no radiological release. So 367 00:21:40,640 --> 00:21:43,280 Speaker 1: if anything could prove the safety of nuclear power, it's 368 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 1: actually Fukushima. That's wild, the opposite, of course of the 369 00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 1: press coverage. So from your perspective, how many nuclear plants 370 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: would the United States have to build to be able 371 00:21:54,040 --> 00:21:57,520 Speaker 1: to generate all of its electricity in a clean way. 372 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,080 Speaker 1: Let's see, you got around one read if we built 373 00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:06,160 Speaker 1: another three hundred, we would be seventy five eighty percent nuclear, 374 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:08,680 Speaker 1: and then we'll be ten percent hydro electric. And you'll 375 00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:11,040 Speaker 1: probably want to have some fossil fuel plants here, or 376 00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:16,040 Speaker 1: they're in particular places where that's advantageous, for instance, where 377 00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:19,080 Speaker 1: you have a great deal of natural gas being coming 378 00:22:19,080 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 1: off as a biproduct of oil production and so forth. 379 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,359 Speaker 1: And in fact, there's a country that has done that. 380 00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,040 Speaker 1: It's France. France is seventy five percent nuclear, ten percent 381 00:22:29,160 --> 00:22:33,360 Speaker 1: hydroelectric and fifteen percent fossil And as a result, and 382 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 1: this is the work of Charles de Gault, wanted France 383 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,560 Speaker 1: to be great, you know, and he had to take 384 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: some doing after World War two to do that, and 385 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,280 Speaker 1: he put together a labor industry alliance included both the 386 00:22:45,320 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: industrialists and the trade unions, including the trade unions led 387 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 1: by the Communist Party, which were a lot of them, 388 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:52,800 Speaker 1: and they said, look, we got to have economic growth. 389 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:54,679 Speaker 1: You want jobs, you want all this. Well, this is 390 00:22:54,680 --> 00:22:56,440 Speaker 1: how we're going to do it. We're going to make 391 00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: France grand. And they're seventy five percentably And in con 392 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:06,639 Speaker 1: sequence of this, today France generates one fifth the carbon 393 00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:12,840 Speaker 1: per unit electricity as Germany, which is controlled by greens 394 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:16,920 Speaker 1: with major green power, and the other parties all include 395 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:19,800 Speaker 1: substantial green factors, so much so they went and they 396 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: shut down their nuclear power plays. The green Germany produces 397 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:28,280 Speaker 1: five times as much carbon emissions as nuclear France. And 398 00:23:28,359 --> 00:23:30,480 Speaker 1: it's even worse than that because a lot of the 399 00:23:30,520 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: carbon that they use is from burning down forest that 400 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:35,640 Speaker 1: you know, the Germans have this thing about forest, their 401 00:23:35,720 --> 00:23:39,080 Speaker 1: love with their forest. It's wonderful that they're making electricity 402 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:41,680 Speaker 1: from forest. You're making elicity from forest by killing trees 403 00:23:41,920 --> 00:23:44,879 Speaker 1: and the animals that live in the trees. So there's 404 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,959 Speaker 1: nothing more harmful to nature than using natural power. And 405 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,320 Speaker 1: yet that's where they are. And of course, as a 406 00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: result of shutting on their nuclear power plants, they also 407 00:23:54,880 --> 00:23:58,400 Speaker 1: gave a big chunk of change to Russia to expand 408 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: its military and develop them a nuclear weapons and hypersonic 409 00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: weapons and call the pack if you look worldwide, isn't 410 00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: it fair to say that there's actually a tremendous renaissance 411 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,040 Speaker 1: in building nuclear plants. Yeah, there is, and you know 412 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: who's leading it. Take a wild guess, would guess the Chinese? 413 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,040 Speaker 1: You have guessed correctly. There's currently four hundred and fifty 414 00:24:36,280 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: active commercial nuclear power plants in the world. The Chinese 415 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: plan to build four hundred and fifty more domestically by 416 00:24:43,640 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: the year twenty fifty, and they plan to build hundreds 417 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 1: of them to meet the needs of new cities that 418 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 1: are forming in Africa and elsewhere around the world. And 419 00:24:54,840 --> 00:24:58,679 Speaker 1: it's really incredible that here's the United States, which invented 420 00:24:58,840 --> 00:25:02,920 Speaker 1: nuclear power. We did the first fission reaction, we did 421 00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,440 Speaker 1: the first fission bombs, we did the first nuclear submarine. 422 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:08,800 Speaker 1: We did the first commercial nuclear power plants, and yet 423 00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:13,080 Speaker 1: we can't compete because we are tying our shoelaces together. 424 00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:17,199 Speaker 1: And in fact, the French, well Macron, was in the 425 00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: process of shutting their nuclear power industry down when they 426 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,480 Speaker 1: got a wake up call from this situation with Russia, 427 00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:27,400 Speaker 1: and he did one eighty and that's fortunate. But it's 428 00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,639 Speaker 1: basically the French and the South Koreans who are the 429 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:32,960 Speaker 1: only serious free world competition to the Chinese and the 430 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:37,720 Speaker 1: Russians in exporting nuclear power plants to the developing sector. 431 00:25:38,040 --> 00:25:42,400 Speaker 1: But you've plowed forward, you'd see a worldwide dramatic expansion, 432 00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,720 Speaker 1: and nuclear power is a source of energy. Yeah, I do. Look, 433 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:51,159 Speaker 1: the primary problem in the world today is poverty. We 434 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:55,320 Speaker 1: have poverty in America, but the average income of Americans 435 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: is fifty thousand dollars a year. The average income of 436 00:25:58,920 --> 00:26:01,840 Speaker 1: a citizen of planet Earth is ten thousand dollars a year, 437 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,280 Speaker 1: and half of the population of the Earth is below 438 00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: average that they make less than ten thousand dollars. So 439 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:11,960 Speaker 1: you can imagine how much poverty there is in the 440 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: world and what that does in terms of malnutrition and 441 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,879 Speaker 1: lack of opportunity, and the fact that children have to 442 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 1: go to work and they can't get educated in this 443 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 1: tremendous loss in public health and weak populations become seabeds 444 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:29,159 Speaker 1: for epidemics. And it's not just their problem, it's our problem. 445 00:26:29,280 --> 00:26:32,240 Speaker 1: So this is the task of the twenty first century. 446 00:26:32,520 --> 00:26:35,719 Speaker 1: We're going to have to increase global energy consumption at 447 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 1: least five times just to get the average to the 448 00:26:38,680 --> 00:26:42,680 Speaker 1: current American level, which, as you know, still leave some 449 00:26:42,720 --> 00:26:46,320 Speaker 1: people poor. You can't do that with fossil fuels. Now 450 00:26:47,040 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 1: here's the thing. Global warming is real, although it is 451 00:26:51,400 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: not as alarming as it is represented to be. We've 452 00:26:54,680 --> 00:26:58,680 Speaker 1: had a one degree centigrade increase in global temperatures since 453 00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy and this has changed some things. You may 454 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: know since you're from Georgia that in Georgia during the 455 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 1: Civil War, Confederate troops entertain themselves in the winter with 456 00:27:07,840 --> 00:27:11,679 Speaker 1: massive snowball fights. Try doing that on army basis in 457 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:15,560 Speaker 1: Georgian net. So, yes, the world's gotten warmer, but this 458 00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,600 Speaker 1: hasn't been a catastrophe. The amount of warming that has 459 00:27:18,600 --> 00:27:21,520 Speaker 1: occurred is equivalent to somebody in New York City moving 460 00:27:21,520 --> 00:27:24,920 Speaker 1: to Central New Jersey. In reality, not only do people 461 00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:26,680 Speaker 1: in New York City moved to New Jersey, a lot 462 00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:29,680 Speaker 1: of them moved to Florida. So people are not suffering 463 00:27:29,720 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: from the amount of warming that has occurred. Now, the 464 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:35,600 Speaker 1: warming has been modest and for the most part beneficial. Actually, 465 00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,359 Speaker 1: the strongest evidence for global warming is the fact that 466 00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: the American growing season has expanded by three weeks since 467 00:27:41,400 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: the beginning of the twentieth century. So that's been beneficial. 468 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,240 Speaker 1: The climate people never talk about that because it's a 469 00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,399 Speaker 1: clear benefit. However, there is an issue, which is the 470 00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:55,440 Speaker 1: carbon emissions themselves. That is, while a one degree temperature 471 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: rises really not that much. The carbon content of the atmosphere. 472 00:27:59,680 --> 00:28:02,239 Speaker 1: The carbon dioxide content of the atmosphere has gone up 473 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:05,000 Speaker 1: from two eighty parts per million in the eighteen hundreds 474 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:07,200 Speaker 1: to four to twenty today. That's an increase of fifty percent. 475 00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: That's enough to matter. Now on land, that has been beneficial. 476 00:28:11,840 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 1: It has actually increased the rate of plant growth on land. 477 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:18,960 Speaker 1: We have photographs taken from orbit by NASA which showed 478 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: that the rate of plant growth. And here I'm not 479 00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:23,360 Speaker 1: just talking about farm plants which have fertilizer, and we're 480 00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 1: helping them. I'm talking about why a plants forests. The 481 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: rate of plant growth on Earth has accelerated by fifteen 482 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:33,920 Speaker 1: percent since nineteen eighty five on land. However, in the ocean, 483 00:28:34,280 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: it's not the same because in the ocean, the limiting 484 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: factor on plant growth with phytoplank and microscopic allergies and 485 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:45,040 Speaker 1: so forth, is not the availability of CO two. It's 486 00:28:45,080 --> 00:28:49,240 Speaker 1: the availability of certain trace elements iron, sulfur, nitrates that 487 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:52,400 Speaker 1: only are available in the ocean in river estuaries and 488 00:28:52,480 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: upwelling areas and certain other special places like that. That's 489 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,040 Speaker 1: why ninety percent of the life in the ocean is 490 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:00,800 Speaker 1: generated in ten percent of the ocean. The rest of 491 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,240 Speaker 1: it is comparatively barren, and so when CO two goes there, 492 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:07,720 Speaker 1: it does not get taken up by plants, and instead 493 00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:11,120 Speaker 1: it carbonates the water and this could affect the ability 494 00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:14,360 Speaker 1: of marine organisms to make shells and stuff like this. 495 00:29:14,800 --> 00:29:19,120 Speaker 1: So while we cannot go to net zero by the 496 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,600 Speaker 1: year twenty fifty, that's not happening. We do need to 497 00:29:22,640 --> 00:29:26,880 Speaker 1: stop ourselves from going to five times our current carbon 498 00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:30,880 Speaker 1: emissions in the twenty first century. And by the way, 499 00:29:30,880 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: the program of the climatists of trying to stop carbon emissions. 500 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:37,560 Speaker 1: There have been few programs in the world that have 501 00:29:37,600 --> 00:29:41,680 Speaker 1: been less successful. That is, since nineteen ninety when they 502 00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: raise the alarm over carbon emissions, global carbon emissions have doubled, 503 00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: just as they did between nineteen sixty and nineteen ninety 504 00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: and between nineteen thirty and nineteen sixty and nineteen hundred 505 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 1: and nineteen thirty. And the reason for this is that 506 00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:58,560 Speaker 1: energy is fundamental to well being and people don't like 507 00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 1: being poor. To the extent that human beings have had 508 00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,040 Speaker 1: any say in the matter, and they have a lot 509 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:06,280 Speaker 1: of say in the matter. Even in totalitarian countries. The 510 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: leaders want to keep their people satisfied, and so they 511 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 1: do want to advance living standards. So long as they 512 00:30:12,920 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 1: stay in power, this is what happens. So unless we 513 00:30:16,800 --> 00:30:20,120 Speaker 1: can come on board with a source of energy that 514 00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:24,480 Speaker 1: cannot just replace the amount of power we're currently generating 515 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:27,760 Speaker 1: by fossil fuels, but bring on board five times that 516 00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 1: much power without creating a massive increase in c on 517 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:33,240 Speaker 1: two in the atmosphere, this is going to have a 518 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: serious effect. So, first of all, I don't think the 519 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:39,240 Speaker 1: fuel exists to support a world economy five times the 520 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: current size based on fossil fuels, or in any case, 521 00:30:42,760 --> 00:30:44,560 Speaker 1: if it did, it would be at a very high 522 00:30:44,600 --> 00:30:48,640 Speaker 1: price that would benefit mostly tyrannical regimes. But in order 523 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:51,360 Speaker 1: to create that world, we have to unleash this new 524 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: form of energy. Well, here's the other factor here, which 525 00:30:55,080 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: is who creates the energy. One problem with fossil fuels 526 00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,320 Speaker 1: is that they represent a very large source of wealth 527 00:31:05,080 --> 00:31:08,719 Speaker 1: that a lot of it is in the hands of 528 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:12,320 Speaker 1: people who did not create them. They have it by 529 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:17,760 Speaker 1: right of possession, and that gives power to those who 530 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,400 Speaker 1: have possession, to those who take it, as opposed to 531 00:31:20,440 --> 00:31:24,360 Speaker 1: those who make it. For instance, in two thousand and eight, 532 00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: OPEC decided to constrict the world oil supply and this 533 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:30,320 Speaker 1: sent the price of oil to one hundred and fifty 534 00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: dollars a barrel. It caused a global economic crash. And 535 00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,600 Speaker 1: right now we're seeing OPEC constricting the world oil supply. 536 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:40,479 Speaker 1: Here's Russian oil, we're trying to cut it off, and 537 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: they say, well, that's great, we'll constrict our oil too, 538 00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: a little bit. As opposed to reaping a benefit of 539 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:48,760 Speaker 1: producing more oil to say, okay, you're giving us a 540 00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:51,120 Speaker 1: bit more of the market, that's great. No, they say, 541 00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: oh no, okay, you want to play that. Let's talk 542 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,440 Speaker 1: about one hundred and fifty dollars oil. And this hurts us, 543 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: and it hurts all sorts of people who a lot 544 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,400 Speaker 1: of energy, which include the most creative parts of the world. 545 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 1: And whereas see, nuclear power is a power that goes 546 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: to those who are creative, which is to say, those 547 00:32:11,360 --> 00:32:16,280 Speaker 1: that are free. Freedom unleashes creativity, and creativity can create 548 00:32:16,880 --> 00:32:20,120 Speaker 1: has the power to create resources that weren't there before. 549 00:32:20,800 --> 00:32:24,000 Speaker 1: So it was only the United States that had the 550 00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: power to invent nuclear power in the first place. Well, 551 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:29,400 Speaker 1: the British helped us do it too, that's who did it. 552 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,840 Speaker 1: And we're talking about an enormous energy resource. Nuclear power 553 00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 1: plants today we get the uranium from uranium ore, and 554 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 1: it's a few percent uranium, but there's uranium everywhere. An 555 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,080 Speaker 1: ordinary block of granite that you see buildings made of 556 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:47,800 Speaker 1: or mountains made of, okay, it's got two parts per 557 00:32:47,840 --> 00:32:50,440 Speaker 1: million uranium in eight parts per million thorium in it. 558 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: And that means that a pound of uranium contains as 559 00:32:55,200 --> 00:32:58,360 Speaker 1: much energy as one hundred pounds of oil. So if 560 00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,520 Speaker 1: you look at a mountain of granite, looking at a 561 00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: mountain of energy. Moses was able to get water out 562 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 1: of a rock. We can get energy out of rocks, 563 00:33:06,760 --> 00:33:08,800 Speaker 1: and we can also get energy out of water, because 564 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: once we develop fusion power, a gallon of water has 565 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,240 Speaker 1: as much energy these three hundred and fifty gallons of gas. 566 00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:18,280 Speaker 1: So at that point, the fact that the Saudis happened 567 00:33:18,320 --> 00:33:20,080 Speaker 1: to be sitting on top of a bunch of oil 568 00:33:20,120 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: that they did nothing to create does them no good 569 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:25,760 Speaker 1: at all. So it's a better world if power goes 570 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:30,200 Speaker 1: to the creative, because the creative are the free. It's 571 00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:32,120 Speaker 1: fascinating to listen to you, and you've thought about this 572 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: so long. I want to thank you for joining me 573 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 1: in newch World, and I want to encourage our listeners 574 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,400 Speaker 1: to get your new book, The Case for Nukes, How 575 00:33:40,440 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: we Can beat Global Warming and create a free, open, 576 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,760 Speaker 1: and magnificent Future, which I think is one of the 577 00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 1: best books I've read on how to harness the promise 578 00:33:48,880 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: of nuclear energy. It's a must read for anyone involved 579 00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 1: in trying to solve our energy challenges and has much 580 00:33:54,680 --> 00:33:57,239 Speaker 1: more common sense than most of what people are going 581 00:33:57,280 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: to be dealing with. So Robert, thank you very much 582 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: for joining me well, thank you, nude, It's always a pleasure. 583 00:34:07,560 --> 00:34:10,080 Speaker 1: Thank you to my guest doctor Robert Zubrim. You can 584 00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,280 Speaker 1: get a link to order his new book, The Case 585 00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 1: for Nukes on our showpage at Newtsworld dot com. News 586 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,000 Speaker 1: World is produced by Gingwish Street sixty and iHeartMedia. Our 587 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,720 Speaker 1: executive producer is Garnsey Sloan, our producer is Rebecca Howell, 588 00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:28,360 Speaker 1: and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for the 589 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,040 Speaker 1: show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the 590 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,080 Speaker 1: team at Gingwich Street sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, 591 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 592 00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 593 00:34:41,080 --> 00:34:44,680 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners 594 00:34:44,680 --> 00:34:47,200 Speaker 1: of newts World can sign up for my three free 595 00:34:47,320 --> 00:34:51,560 Speaker 1: weekly columns at gingwist sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm 596 00:34:51,640 --> 00:35:02,919 Speaker 1: newt Gingwich. This is Newtsworld.