1 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:13,480 Speaker 1: Diversion podcasts. This episode contains descriptions of graphic violence and 2 00:00:13,560 --> 00:00:30,319 Speaker 1: scenes of genocide. Listener's discretion is advised. Mio was back 3 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:33,879 Speaker 1: in sal Polo. He'd had a few close brushes on 4 00:00:33,960 --> 00:00:37,000 Speaker 1: his trip to Brazilia. We had almost been spotted by 5 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 1: some Israeli friends, but his cover was still intact. At 6 00:00:42,760 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: his hotel, Mio found business letters and telegrams waiting for him, 7 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:50,320 Speaker 1: requesting your authorization to close the hundred thousand dollar deal 8 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:54,520 Speaker 1: we discussed prior to your departure. Read one. The letters 9 00:00:54,560 --> 00:00:58,680 Speaker 1: looked real, but they weren't. Mio's massad boss back in Paris, 10 00:00:58,840 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: Joseph your Reeve, had sent them in case. The butcher 11 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 1: was checking up on his new friend Anton kunz La 12 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:12,280 Speaker 1: while he was out of town. Herbert Suckers had invited 13 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 1: kunz La to visit him and his family at his home, 14 00:01:15,840 --> 00:01:18,240 Speaker 1: so me was getting ready for the meeting. He had 15 00:01:18,280 --> 00:01:21,240 Speaker 1: no idea what would happen, but they would ask him. 16 00:01:21,280 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: He didn't even know what Suckers wanted, which was a 17 00:01:23,520 --> 00:01:27,399 Speaker 1: real question. Most spies use a handful of motives to 18 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: get people to do what they want. Money, sex, patriotism, resentment. 19 00:01:32,840 --> 00:01:35,679 Speaker 1: You've seen things like that in the movies, they're all 20 00:01:35,760 --> 00:01:40,479 Speaker 1: easy ways into somebody's life. But suckers, he was not fish. 21 00:01:41,040 --> 00:01:43,399 Speaker 1: He seemed to want to be a hero again, to 22 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:47,160 Speaker 1: be beloved. Neo couldn't offer him that. It was beyond 23 00:01:47,200 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: his powers. So what could he dangle in front of 24 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: the butcher? Here's former U. S. Army intelligence officer Chris Costa, 25 00:01:56,640 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: so human intelligence officers. They are rain to be a 26 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:07,560 Speaker 1: little bit psychologist, a little bit body language expert. They 27 00:02:07,560 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: are also a father confessor. There are a rabbi, they're 28 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:16,880 Speaker 1: a priest. They're a friend. They're a teacher, they're a mentor, 29 00:02:17,240 --> 00:02:21,239 Speaker 1: they're a coach, they're a student. They have to adapt. 30 00:02:21,600 --> 00:02:26,880 Speaker 1: But all along the way, you are looking for clues 31 00:02:27,400 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 1: as to what motivates this individual that I have to manipulate. 32 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: Neal would have to play amateur psychologists. He sat on 33 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,720 Speaker 1: his hotel bed. He thought back to his meeting with Sukers, 34 00:02:40,120 --> 00:02:43,800 Speaker 1: and he asked himself a few questions. What was the 35 00:02:43,800 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: butcher missing in his life? What did the butcher really want? 36 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 1: And how could he give the butcher that one thing 37 00:02:51,480 --> 00:02:55,359 Speaker 1: he lacked? I tried to imagine what had gone through 38 00:02:55,520 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: Uker's mind since our so called accidental earst encounter that 39 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: had ended over a glass of brandy in the cabin 40 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:10,160 Speaker 1: of his boat. It was clear that Herbert Stookers missed 41 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: the days of glory as deputy commander of the Rigor Ghetto. 42 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:22,560 Speaker 1: Then he had been almost an almighty god. At least 43 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,760 Speaker 1: where's the life and death of the Jews of Riga 44 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 1: was concerned. He most probably recalls those days fondly, when 45 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 1: he was at the zenith of his power, treated with 46 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: great reverence and fear by anyone who saw him riding 47 00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:44,000 Speaker 1: on horseback through the streets of the ghetto, clasped heavy handgun, 48 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:50,720 Speaker 1: clad in his black leather pilot's court. Then he had 49 00:03:51,160 --> 00:03:56,320 Speaker 1: unlimited power, the power to determine the fate of other people. 50 00:03:57,240 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: How he must long for those days which seem now 51 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:04,800 Speaker 1: looking through the window of the shabby ticket office of 52 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:09,800 Speaker 1: his undown both rental business like a mirage produced by 53 00:04:09,840 --> 00:04:26,880 Speaker 1: in memory sells with an overdeveloped imagination. I'm Stephen Talty 54 00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:32,479 Speaker 1: in this as good assassin's hunting the butcher, So he's 55 00:04:32,520 --> 00:04:36,080 Speaker 1: the first part was to find and not be looking forward, 56 00:04:36,120 --> 00:04:38,919 Speaker 1: while for the second part was to find a nag 57 00:04:39,320 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: and healing. He shot fast and see expertise that comes 58 00:04:43,839 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: from experience, the end of a trail of blood and horror, 59 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: in the end of a man whose name will be 60 00:04:49,279 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: written in infamy. M Episode five, Baiting the hook. Sitting there, 61 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: Mio began to feel his way into Zuker's life. He 62 00:05:19,360 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: thought about this former superstar pilot now working as a 63 00:05:22,279 --> 00:05:25,320 Speaker 1: kind of grease monkey. How far this man had fallen 64 00:05:25,360 --> 00:05:29,599 Speaker 1: in the world. Question one? What was the Butcher missing 65 00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:34,279 Speaker 1: in his life? Respect? The Jewish activists who discovered Suckers 66 00:05:34,360 --> 00:05:37,719 Speaker 1: living in Rio hadn't managed to get him deported or arrested, 67 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,599 Speaker 1: but they had badly damaged his public image. Zuckers was 68 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,960 Speaker 1: a social outcast now, and it was clear he hated it. 69 00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:49,560 Speaker 1: Question too. If making him a hero was out of 70 00:05:49,560 --> 00:05:52,520 Speaker 1: the question, was there anything that could substitute for it? 71 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 1: Mio thought about that a narcissist like Suckers, he wants 72 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: what he used to have, power and fame. The Butcher 73 00:06:02,480 --> 00:06:05,120 Speaker 1: wanted people to look up to him. Back in Latvia, 74 00:06:05,560 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: he'd been a winner, He was beloved, and he liked 75 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:12,840 Speaker 1: that a lot. So Question three, how could MEO get 76 00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 1: the Butcher or pretend to get the Butcher? The power 77 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: that he so clearly wanted. They could always start with money. 78 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:21,920 Speaker 1: Money would buy Zookers new suits, and it would buy 79 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:24,480 Speaker 1: him new glasses to replace the taped up ones he'd 80 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: been wearing at the docks. First came money, then respect, 81 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 1: then power. It was an age old formula, but it worked. 82 00:06:33,000 --> 00:06:35,279 Speaker 1: Me was guessing at all this he had no idea 83 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: really what was in the butcher's heart. But as it 84 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,040 Speaker 1: turned out, he'd come very close to the truth. Again, 85 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:47,160 Speaker 1: Chris Costa, this is ultimately, this particular case is an 86 00:06:47,200 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: incredible example of looking every step of the way to 87 00:06:51,800 --> 00:06:58,239 Speaker 1: understand what motivates this target so that I can set 88 00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 1: up the ultimate trap. And I think in this case 89 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:05,880 Speaker 1: he was motivated by wanting to regain something that he lost. 90 00:07:06,160 --> 00:07:09,360 Speaker 1: He wanted more financial stability, He wanted to be an 91 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:14,200 Speaker 1: important person again, so he was vulnerable to a great 92 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:20,120 Speaker 1: business opportunity with somebody he trusted. In. Doing my research, 93 00:07:20,400 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: I came across an interview that Sucker's wife had later 94 00:07:23,040 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: given to police. She told them that when Zuker's first 95 00:07:26,920 --> 00:07:30,440 Speaker 1: started getting successful in Brazil, he told his friends he 96 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: was going to quote create a great club and found 97 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: a school of seaplane pilots, unlike anything that had ever 98 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:41,119 Speaker 1: existed in Brazil. Not only that, he wanted to build 99 00:07:41,120 --> 00:07:45,200 Speaker 1: a new airplane engine that would revolutionize the industry. His 100 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,800 Speaker 1: dream had always been to be a pioneer, to shock 101 00:07:47,880 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: the world with his genius in building airplanes. All he 102 00:07:51,280 --> 00:08:00,320 Speaker 1: needed was an investor to help him with money. Meal 103 00:08:00,400 --> 00:08:03,240 Speaker 1: didn't know about any of these dreams, but he'd somehow 104 00:08:03,280 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: detected what Sukers was looking for. A backer, someone to 105 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:11,240 Speaker 1: believe in him. Who knows, maybe with the help of 106 00:08:11,360 --> 00:08:15,320 Speaker 1: Kunzle and his backer's capital, he will finally be able 107 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: to pull himself out of this dismal existence, all of 108 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: his on the verge of poverty, and become rich, a 109 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,960 Speaker 1: respectable member of society, and and read himself of the 110 00:08:28,040 --> 00:08:32,200 Speaker 1: persecution of the Jews that had been beleaguing him for years. 111 00:08:33,320 --> 00:08:36,880 Speaker 1: The American reporter Jack Anderson, who traveled to Brazil in 112 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,160 Speaker 1: nineteen sixty to cover Nazi fugitives, sensed it too. Suckers 113 00:08:41,200 --> 00:08:46,240 Speaker 1: wanted to rehabilitate himself, and both Anderson and Mio offered 114 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:50,160 Speaker 1: him a shot. So interestingly, Zookers turned up the charm 115 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: and trotted out a very similar routine for both Meo 116 00:08:53,920 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 1: and Jack Anderson. I think that he was afraid, not 117 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: so much of the publicity as he was of the Jews. 118 00:09:04,920 --> 00:09:07,000 Speaker 1: I think one of the reasons that he may have 119 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 1: been willing to talk to me was to present his 120 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:13,080 Speaker 1: case how he had saved this girl, and how he 121 00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,559 Speaker 1: was not a Jew killer, and how he had been misrepresented. So, 122 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:21,440 Speaker 1: sitting on his hotel bed, Neil decided on his approach 123 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:24,480 Speaker 1: he would dangle a chance at redemption in front of 124 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 1: the butcher, a last shot at riches and fame. That 125 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: was the bait. Neo got into his rented v W 126 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: and followed the directions that seekers had given him to 127 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:43,080 Speaker 1: his house. When he turned the corner onto the final street, 128 00:09:43,440 --> 00:09:46,240 Speaker 1: he found he was in a normal, boring suburb lined 129 00:09:46,240 --> 00:09:51,080 Speaker 1: with modest homes. Here's how Anderson describes it. It was 130 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,079 Speaker 1: about twenty miles, as I recall, out of dirt road, 131 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: out of kind of a remote but very pastoral setting 132 00:09:59,360 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: outside of So Paulo, comparable to a lakeside development where 133 00:10:06,679 --> 00:10:11,960 Speaker 1: wealthy people might have bungalows. Couldn't have been more peaceful 134 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:19,559 Speaker 1: looking place. It was almost a postcard tranquility. And when 135 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:22,520 Speaker 1: I got there there were three seaplanes. You are enough sitting, 136 00:10:22,679 --> 00:10:27,000 Speaker 1: three of them sitting anchored near his house, and two 137 00:10:27,040 --> 00:10:30,599 Speaker 1: big burly guards at his gate. It was easy to 138 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 1: spot the Sucre's residence. In fact, it stuck out like 139 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:37,559 Speaker 1: a sore thumb. The house was completely surrounded by a 140 00:10:37,640 --> 00:10:40,880 Speaker 1: high fence topped with barbed wire. The German shepherd that 141 00:10:40,920 --> 00:10:43,199 Speaker 1: year Reeve had warned him about was barking at me 142 00:10:43,320 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: O through the fence, showing its teeth. The house was 143 00:10:46,600 --> 00:10:49,319 Speaker 1: pretty basic and there was a garden shed in the yard. 144 00:10:49,760 --> 00:10:54,520 Speaker 1: It confirmed me as guests clearly Sucers was hurting for money. 145 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:57,319 Speaker 1: The butcher emerged from the house spotted me O getting 146 00:10:57,320 --> 00:11:00,600 Speaker 1: out of the VW. His face broke into a wide 147 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,360 Speaker 1: grin and he called out to Meo, saying how glad 148 00:11:03,400 --> 00:11:06,199 Speaker 1: he was to see him. Sucers tied up the German 149 00:11:06,200 --> 00:11:12,439 Speaker 1: shepherd and invited his guest inside. Here's how Anderson describes 150 00:11:12,559 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: meeting Suckers. I approached the gate and asked identified myself 151 00:11:18,320 --> 00:11:21,880 Speaker 1: and asked for him, And one of these two big 152 00:11:21,920 --> 00:11:25,400 Speaker 1: burly guards goes up to the door and knocks on 153 00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: the door, and a guy comes out. He's thirty yards away, 154 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,080 Speaker 1: forty yards away. The waves still need to come on in, 155 00:11:34,840 --> 00:11:37,240 Speaker 1: and so they let me in and I walked in, 156 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:40,360 Speaker 1: and it was kind of chilling because he was wearing 157 00:11:40,360 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 1: a leather jacket. Not read all the stuff. He was 158 00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 1: wearing this leather jacket. When he turned around open the door, 159 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: he had a pistol book and out of his back pocket. 160 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:54,679 Speaker 1: Kind of chilling. He invited me in and we talked 161 00:11:54,679 --> 00:11:59,120 Speaker 1: to Great Lane. As he entered the house, his eyes 162 00:11:59,200 --> 00:12:02,520 Speaker 1: darted around the here he was looking for signs of 163 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:08,120 Speaker 1: the past. During the years nineteen forty one nineteen forty four, 164 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: Zukers had a messed a small fortune robbed from his 165 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: Jewish victims, but he had to leave most of it 166 00:12:18,200 --> 00:12:21,000 Speaker 1: in Latvia when he escapes the Red Army to the 167 00:12:21,080 --> 00:12:24,680 Speaker 1: vest and the remains of the stolen goods had to 168 00:12:24,720 --> 00:12:28,319 Speaker 1: be sold in order to finance the long escape route 169 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,719 Speaker 1: from Riga to South Paolo. Now, as he studied Sucers home, 170 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,000 Speaker 1: Nero realized that the money and the jewels they were 171 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:39,240 Speaker 1: long gone. There were no chandeliers or grand pianos here. 172 00:12:40,240 --> 00:12:43,640 Speaker 1: The rooms were modestly furnished, even a little shabby. It 173 00:12:43,800 --> 00:12:48,360 Speaker 1: was a good sign his instincts have been right. The 174 00:12:48,440 --> 00:12:51,320 Speaker 1: butcher introduced me out to his children and to his wife, Milda, 175 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 1: a thin woman with messy hair. She looked frazzled or 176 00:12:55,120 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 1: maybe anxious. Sucers brought me over to a wooden chest, 177 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:02,079 Speaker 1: and he pulling out medals and ribbons and showing them 178 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 1: to me O. He was clearly proud of them. Most 179 00:13:05,760 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: of them were for daring trips to Africa Japan once 180 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:11,000 Speaker 1: he'd made in the thirties when he was a world 181 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,960 Speaker 1: famous pilot. He was showing me O that he had 182 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:21,920 Speaker 1: once been somebody. Neo nodded and congratulated Sukers. His eyes 183 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:25,240 Speaker 1: drifted around the drawer. He spotted a bunch of other medals. 184 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:29,079 Speaker 1: These ones they were different, They had swastikas on it. 185 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: Clearly they had nothing to do with aviation. This was 186 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 1: for work Zukers had done during the war. At ze moments, 187 00:13:39,240 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: I preferred not to think of the activities for which 188 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: Chukos had been a wall did these declarations. Here's how 189 00:13:48,080 --> 00:13:52,199 Speaker 1: Jack Anderson describes getting a similar tour from Zuker's and 190 00:13:52,480 --> 00:13:56,559 Speaker 1: I at some point asked him a question that required 191 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:59,800 Speaker 1: him to look up some papers or documents, and the 192 00:14:00,000 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: open the closet. It was by the front door. They 193 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:09,200 Speaker 1: opened the closet, and they're hanging. In that closet was 194 00:14:09,240 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: a row of Nazi uniform and all freshly pressed, complete 195 00:14:14,280 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: with a swastika. He made a big point. I remember 196 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:22,200 Speaker 1: doing the discussion. He denied the atrocities, which I would 197 00:14:22,360 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: expected him to, but spoke crudely of Jews, you know, 198 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: us him I'm not a Jew killer, saying it contemptuously, 199 00:14:31,080 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: as if he wishes he were. And his greatest evidence 200 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:41,040 Speaker 1: of that was that he had helped a Jewish girl escape. 201 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:43,440 Speaker 1: And I talked to people about it and they said, yes, 202 00:14:43,480 --> 00:14:47,120 Speaker 1: that's correct. He did help, and there was an obvious ploy, 203 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:49,680 Speaker 1: so that if he ever got caught, he would This 204 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: was going to be his great excuse, his great justification 205 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,880 Speaker 1: for not having his own neck wrong. What do you mean, 206 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,520 Speaker 1: I'm a Jew killer? I save this girl? And he 207 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: did save this girl, but he killed many others and 208 00:15:06,320 --> 00:15:10,160 Speaker 1: raped many others, but he saved one. I was told 209 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: by the Jews themselves. Yes he didn't save one girl. 210 00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:16,400 Speaker 1: I mean he did that to create an alibi for himself. 211 00:15:18,560 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 1: What came next was even more disturbing. Seekers opened another 212 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:27,040 Speaker 1: drawer and Mio immediately saw guns. There were two pistols. Apperetta, 213 00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:31,000 Speaker 1: a German mauser, and a semi automatic rightful. All the 214 00:15:31,240 --> 00:15:35,160 Speaker 1: evidence that I saw around there checked completely with the 215 00:15:35,200 --> 00:15:37,440 Speaker 1: file that I had, even to the point that it 216 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:39,520 Speaker 1: made the hair on back of my next stand up. 217 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: It checked completely with him with what was in the 218 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: file in these affidavits, The way he acted his physical appearance, 219 00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: where he dressed the pistol in the back of his pocket, 220 00:15:52,760 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: his his arrogant attitudes is brutal. Ways. He wasn't brutal 221 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:01,560 Speaker 1: to me. Of course, he wasn't brutal, but he conducted 222 00:16:01,640 --> 00:16:03,760 Speaker 1: himself like a man who would be brutal. I would 223 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:06,120 Speaker 1: have hated to build his prisoner in that place. I'll 224 00:16:06,120 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: tell you that his big brutal look of brutal talking. 225 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: So I came away convinced that he was exactly what 226 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,240 Speaker 1: the Jews said. He was just struck me as a 227 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: kind of a guy who would have probably enjoyed kicking 228 00:16:22,880 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: me around secrets. Was having a good time picking up 229 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: each gun and showing it off. He leaned over to 230 00:16:30,680 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: Mio and told him he knew how to take good 231 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 1: care of himself. Meo wondered why Zukers was showing him 232 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 1: the weapons he was posing as a developer, and Sucris 233 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 1: was auditioning for a job. It's not as if you 234 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,520 Speaker 1: need an arsenal to sell real estate. Was the butcher 235 00:16:47,760 --> 00:16:50,360 Speaker 1: trying to prove to Meo that he'd once been a soldier? 236 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 1: Or was it a warning? Maybe Sucres suspected that Meo 237 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: really wasn't who he said he was. Neo couldn't figure 238 00:16:58,600 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: it out, not yet, but he felt exposed. The lack 239 00:17:02,640 --> 00:17:07,719 Speaker 1: of backup he'd insisted on now seemed foolish. Nia realized 240 00:17:07,760 --> 00:17:10,240 Speaker 1: it wouldn't be easy to eliminate this man. He was 241 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: crafty and suspicious. Suckers brought Meo out to the workshed 242 00:17:17,080 --> 00:17:20,080 Speaker 1: showed him some pictures he developed. He'd taken them from 243 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: his plane, and they covered different areas of the city 244 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,479 Speaker 1: that might be right for investment. After the scare over 245 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,000 Speaker 1: the guns was a positive sign. Showed that Sukers was 246 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: interested in working on the real estate stuff. He was 247 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:37,720 Speaker 1: hungry and that was a good thing. Afterwards, the family 248 00:17:37,720 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: sat in the living room. Suckers was talkative, but his 249 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: sons and daughters they were kind of awkward. They didn't 250 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:46,119 Speaker 1: say a lot. Mean got the sense that the family 251 00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:50,200 Speaker 1: didn't get many visitors. Though some resilience had defended Suckers 252 00:17:50,240 --> 00:17:53,120 Speaker 1: when he was accused of being the Butcher, many others 253 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:57,119 Speaker 1: they had abandoned him. He'd lost friends, the family seemed 254 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:02,160 Speaker 1: starved for company. Anton Kouzla Uh was a lifeline. Neil 255 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:07,679 Speaker 1: could feel how much the Zookers needed a savior. As 256 00:18:07,720 --> 00:18:10,359 Speaker 1: they munched on cake and sip coffee, the kids loosened 257 00:18:10,440 --> 00:18:13,679 Speaker 1: up a bit. They began asking Kunzla about the future. 258 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 1: He assured them that he was planning big things for Brazil. 259 00:18:17,480 --> 00:18:20,040 Speaker 1: He and his partners were serious about investing and making 260 00:18:20,040 --> 00:18:22,960 Speaker 1: a lot of money there, and their father he was 261 00:18:23,080 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 1: part of their big plans. If you're this far into 262 00:18:32,240 --> 00:18:35,920 Speaker 1: the story, we're assuming you're enjoying Hunting the Butcher. If 263 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:38,800 Speaker 1: you're listening on Apple podcasts, would you be able to 264 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:40,800 Speaker 1: take a minute to give the show a rating and 265 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: a review. Just find the show's page on Apple Podcasts, 266 00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: scrolled down to the section called Ratings and Reviews and 267 00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:50,680 Speaker 1: tap one of those purple stars to give it a rating. 268 00:18:51,280 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 1: Then tapped a little purple link that says write a 269 00:18:53,720 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 1: review and leave a few words about what you think 270 00:18:56,440 --> 00:18:59,360 Speaker 1: of Hunting the Butcher. It really helps get the word 271 00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:03,840 Speaker 1: out and let other listeners know about the podcast. Much appreciated. 272 00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:17,359 Speaker 1: Now on with the show. Later, he and Zukers drove around. 273 00:19:17,600 --> 00:19:20,240 Speaker 1: They were looking at properties that could become vacation resorts. 274 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: Neo feigned interest, but he was thinking about how to 275 00:19:23,359 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 1: get the butcher out of the country. If Zukers had 276 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,000 Speaker 1: shown him the most beautiful plot of land in Brazil, 277 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 1: he wouldn't have cared. He was building trust dependence. Zuker 278 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:37,960 Speaker 1: says that Kunsla was bored the places he'd shown him 279 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: weren't doing the trick, so he came up with an idea. 280 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: The two of them should take a trip inland away 281 00:19:43,560 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: from the coast. He told the secret agent they owned 282 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 1: two plantations there. Maybe they'd be right for MEO's tourism business. 283 00:19:51,760 --> 00:19:54,760 Speaker 1: Neo immediately agreed. It would be like a boy's trip, 284 00:19:54,920 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: an adventure. They can relax on the way to the plantations, 285 00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 1: they could bond. I should point out here that me 286 00:20:01,720 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: was violating almost every rule of working undercover, especially when 287 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,919 Speaker 1: your target was as dangerous as the Butcher was. And 288 00:20:09,000 --> 00:20:12,959 Speaker 1: it doesn't surprise Chris Costa. So in many cases you 289 00:20:13,000 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: are so you're a singleton. You're alone, you don't have 290 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:21,560 Speaker 1: a backup, you don't have a quick reaction force, you 291 00:20:21,600 --> 00:20:25,359 Speaker 1: don't have the ability to simply call for help. There's 292 00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: no switch you can activate that sends a message that 293 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,320 Speaker 1: you're at risk. So this is where you have to 294 00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:39,480 Speaker 1: constantly assess the risk and the amount of risk you're 295 00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: willing to accept. Usually, an espionage work, if there's a 296 00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:48,800 Speaker 1: risk your cover will be blown and you'll be exposed. 297 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:51,960 Speaker 1: You try to keep your interactions to public places that 298 00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,240 Speaker 1: are easy to escape from, or where a killer might 299 00:20:55,280 --> 00:20:58,440 Speaker 1: feel reluctant to shoot you, because there could be witnesses. 300 00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,560 Speaker 1: So you keep your meeting to the safest places you 301 00:21:01,600 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: can think of, not plantations out in the middle of nowhere. 302 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,480 Speaker 1: Saucers was proposing going into the back country, the two 303 00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:13,679 Speaker 1: of them alone. It was super risky. If Mio had 304 00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 1: passed the idea by his boss, your reeve, you probably 305 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: would have said no. But your read was thousands of 306 00:21:19,400 --> 00:21:23,239 Speaker 1: miles away and Mia was flying solo. He agreed to go. 307 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:30,080 Speaker 1: Meo could see that Sucers was starting to dream about 308 00:21:30,080 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 1: the future, to get excited. That's what Mio wanted. In 309 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: the morning, Meal's first stop was to a sporting goods store. 310 00:21:43,520 --> 00:21:46,879 Speaker 1: He felt strange about going with Suckers into the jungle unarmed, 311 00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: so he bought a small knife. He would have preferred 312 00:21:50,440 --> 00:21:53,199 Speaker 1: a gun or something more lethal, but he couldn't conceal 313 00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,840 Speaker 1: a gun, so he had this thing that was really 314 00:21:55,880 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: a glorified pen knife. Most massad agents would laugh at 315 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,440 Speaker 1: such a weapon. What are you going to do with that? 316 00:22:03,280 --> 00:22:07,160 Speaker 1: But it was the best Meal could think of. When 317 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:10,560 Speaker 1: Mea arrived at Suker's house, the butcher emerged carrying supplies, 318 00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:14,240 Speaker 1: canned food and other things, and his other hand was 319 00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:17,840 Speaker 1: a long bag. Meio knew what that was and he froze. 320 00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,240 Speaker 1: It was the rifle he'd seen the day before. Why 321 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,880 Speaker 1: was the butcher bringing a long gun to the jungle, 322 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:29,680 Speaker 1: Neil began to get nervous. There was one other detail 323 00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:32,639 Speaker 1: he worried about. On the drive to the plantations, he 324 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:36,359 Speaker 1: like most Jewish men, was circumcised, but his cover was 325 00:22:36,359 --> 00:22:41,199 Speaker 1: an Austrian businessman, and Austrian most likely wouldn't be circumcised. 326 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:44,280 Speaker 1: So how would Mio explain if the two of them 327 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,200 Speaker 1: went to take a leak in jungle and Suckers glanced over? 328 00:22:48,640 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: He had to prepare for everything. He decided to tell 329 00:22:52,320 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: the butcher that he'd gotten the sexually transmitted disease during 330 00:22:55,760 --> 00:22:59,840 Speaker 1: the war, and that doctors had performed in operation. Soldiers 331 00:22:59,840 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: were always getting syphilis and things like that. They could 332 00:23:02,800 --> 00:23:06,240 Speaker 1: laugh about it, reminisce about the war. Maybe it would work. 333 00:23:08,520 --> 00:23:11,200 Speaker 1: The long trip to the plantations would also give Zukers 334 00:23:11,200 --> 00:23:14,120 Speaker 1: a chance to see if they were being tailed. If 335 00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: Mio had people following him, some kind of a backup team, 336 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:20,800 Speaker 1: they would be exposed on the deserted roads. At least 337 00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,560 Speaker 1: for now, MEO's decision to come to Brazil solo look smart. 338 00:23:32,480 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 1: It was hot, a typical Brazilian day. Finally they drove 339 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,760 Speaker 1: up to the first plantation. It was disappointing, a small 340 00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:44,159 Speaker 1: plot of land, not much to look at. Meo shook 341 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:46,800 Speaker 1: his head. There was nothing out here. Why would Sukers 342 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 1: think this would be a good spot for an expensive resort. 343 00:23:50,480 --> 00:23:53,439 Speaker 1: It had been a waste of time. They got back 344 00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,000 Speaker 1: in the car and headed to the second place. This 345 00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 1: one it was much more promising, a huge farm with 346 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: thousands of banana trees, the leaves swaying in the breeze. 347 00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: It was pretty impressive. Actually, at least there was room 348 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,440 Speaker 1: for a hotel and maybe a swimming pool. It might 349 00:24:09,480 --> 00:24:13,560 Speaker 1: work as a tourist destination. There was one other thing. 350 00:24:13,920 --> 00:24:18,320 Speaker 1: The place was completely deserted, like not a soul in sight. 351 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 1: Neo parked the car and got out. Zukers did too. 352 00:24:23,280 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 1: Then he reached back in and grabbed the rifle. Zukers 353 00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: asked me to take a short walk. He pointed to 354 00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:35,439 Speaker 1: a small path leading to an uncultivated area full of 355 00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:41,000 Speaker 1: trees and tall bushes and tells me it leads to 356 00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:47,640 Speaker 1: a small river swarming with crocodiles. Meal appeared perfectly calm, 357 00:24:47,680 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: but inside he was tense. Something was very wrong. Clearly 358 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,399 Speaker 1: the trip wasn't about real estate ventures or plots of land. 359 00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: You could dismiss bringing a rifle along. Leave the plantations 360 00:25:00,760 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 1: had wild animals. But the butcher wasn't even trying to 361 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:06,840 Speaker 1: talk up the place as a tourist destination. He was 362 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,359 Speaker 1: up to something else. Suckers had brought him here to 363 00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:14,639 Speaker 1: see if Kula really was who said he was. I 364 00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 1: knew that Zukers was observing my reactions closely, and hastened 365 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,119 Speaker 1: to accept tiso without any hesitation. They walked down the 366 00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:25,960 Speaker 1: path and stopped at a small clearing, where Sukers took 367 00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: the rifle out of the bag. Suckers asked me, oh 368 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 1: for shooting match. If he'd really been on the Eastern Front, 369 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:35,639 Speaker 1: he should know how to shoot along gu Sucers pointing 370 00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,240 Speaker 1: to a tree about fifty yards away. There was a 371 00:25:38,280 --> 00:25:42,320 Speaker 1: metal plate nailed to the trunk that would be the target. 372 00:25:43,240 --> 00:25:47,080 Speaker 1: You're being led in the jungle to shoot with a 373 00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 1: guy that you know has already killed people with his 374 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:54,760 Speaker 1: own hands. Is this yet again? Are you being tricked 375 00:25:54,800 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: and manipulated by somebody that certainly was vicious and displayed 376 00:26:00,240 --> 00:26:03,560 Speaker 1: viciousness during World War Two and a propensity to kill 377 00:26:03,680 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 1: people All of a sudden, You're alone on some plantation. 378 00:26:08,040 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: Is this a setup? Are you going to be killed? 379 00:26:10,880 --> 00:26:14,040 Speaker 1: I had no doubt in my mind that the shooting 380 00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: competition was no spoiler of the moment idea. It was 381 00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: a well planned move by Zukers, intended to put me 382 00:26:23,840 --> 00:26:28,840 Speaker 1: to the test and maybe even beyond it. Mio also 383 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:31,520 Speaker 1: realized that if it came to a fight, his little 384 00:26:31,560 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 1: pocket knife wasn't going to be much use. Zukers loaded 385 00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:38,320 Speaker 1: ten bullets into the rifle and sighted the plate hanging 386 00:26:38,359 --> 00:26:41,240 Speaker 1: on the tree. He let off ten shots, one right 387 00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: after the other. You could tell he knew how to 388 00:26:43,800 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: handle a gun. He shot fast, with the expertise that 389 00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:52,600 Speaker 1: comes from experience, a large part of which had been 390 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,600 Speaker 1: the clad by shooting naked and petrofied Jews in the 391 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 1: head in the Valley of the Dead in Rombula Forest. 392 00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: The Rambola forest was the place near Riga where the 393 00:27:05,680 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 1: Nazis had murdered twenty five thousand Jews in the winter 394 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:14,800 Speaker 1: of Suker. Shots all hit their target within two inch radius. 395 00:27:15,160 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 1: He'd done well. He handed the rifle to Mio. I 396 00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:22,520 Speaker 1: could see out of the corner of my eye how 397 00:27:22,560 --> 00:27:27,240 Speaker 1: he followed my every move, waiting to find out whether 398 00:27:27,320 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 1: I was an imposta. I had to reach military best. 399 00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: From the minute I had taken this mission upon myself, 400 00:27:36,520 --> 00:27:42,840 Speaker 1: Anton kuns had become an inseparable part of me. Meo 401 00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,040 Speaker 1: pulled the trigger again and again. When he was finished, 402 00:27:46,359 --> 00:27:49,159 Speaker 1: the two men walked towards the tree. Me was praying, 403 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 1: you'd at the target. When they studied the plate, it 404 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,879 Speaker 1: turned out that meal shots were clustered in the center. 405 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:59,320 Speaker 1: He'd done even better than Zukers. The butcher seemed excited. 406 00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:02,000 Speaker 1: He cried out, way to go and slap me on 407 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,199 Speaker 1: the shoulder. Like many soldiers, he placed a lot of 408 00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,160 Speaker 1: weight on whether a man could shoot a gun. I 409 00:28:08,200 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: us almost completely convinced I was all right. As of 410 00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:18,280 Speaker 1: that moment, It's the atmosphere between us became much lighter, 411 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:22,359 Speaker 1: as if the shooting match was some male ritual of 412 00:28:22,560 --> 00:28:26,119 Speaker 1: the two former comrades and alms in the service of 413 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:33,040 Speaker 1: the fuer Hi. This is Stephen Talty, host of Good 414 00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,880 Speaker 1: Assassins Hunting the Butcher. The folks that helped me bring 415 00:28:36,920 --> 00:28:40,960 Speaker 1: you the show, Diversion Podcasts, have just launched another podcast 416 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: that I think you'll like. It's called Backstaged The Devil 417 00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,520 Speaker 1: in Metal, a deep dive into the history of mental music, 418 00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 1: filled with never before heard interviews and stories from some 419 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:55,960 Speaker 1: of the biggest names of music, including Black Sabbath to 420 00:28:56,160 --> 00:29:01,360 Speaker 1: This Priest, Ben Helen, and many others. It outrageous, raw 421 00:29:01,720 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: and surprising at times. Backstage The Devil and Metal is 422 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 1: out now. Follow the show on Apple Podcasts, I hired 423 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:22,400 Speaker 1: Radio app or wherever you listen to your podcasts. The 424 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,400 Speaker 1: test was over Meo he passed. The two men walked 425 00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 1: back along the path. As he went, Leo felt a 426 00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:32,160 Speaker 1: sharp jab in his foot. A nail had gone through 427 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:35,080 Speaker 1: the bottom of his boot and pierced the skin. He 428 00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,200 Speaker 1: sat down, took off the boot and looked at the cut. 429 00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: Seekers was standing above him holding the stock of the rifle. 430 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,880 Speaker 1: Suddenly he handed the gun to Meo and told him 431 00:29:45,880 --> 00:29:48,680 Speaker 1: to pound the nail down so it wouldn't cut him again. 432 00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:55,800 Speaker 1: The magazine in the canvas loaded van bullet in his 433 00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:59,400 Speaker 1: head at the point BLANKO inch another bulletins are hot 434 00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: to ascertain death and the mission is complete, they thought. 435 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,320 Speaker 1: By the time they find them hearing this remote corners about, 436 00:30:09,160 --> 00:30:13,920 Speaker 1: I should be long on to Europe. Do you decide 437 00:30:13,960 --> 00:30:16,960 Speaker 1: that you're going to take this mission in your own hands? 438 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: And despite the plan that you're developing, are you going 439 00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:23,240 Speaker 1: to kill this guy? It was tempting, but in the 440 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,880 Speaker 1: end he couldn't do it. The butcher had to die 441 00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:29,520 Speaker 1: in a certain way, almost a ceremonial way, for the 442 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,440 Speaker 1: mission to succeed. The team had to read a verdict 443 00:30:32,440 --> 00:30:34,960 Speaker 1: out and this had to happen in the country that 444 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 1: wouldn't endanger Jews. It was just too soon, and it 445 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: took an incredible amount of discipline. But intelligence officers always 446 00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,160 Speaker 1: have to keep in mind that they have a plan. 447 00:30:47,280 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: There's a logic for that plant. Who could have known 448 00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,600 Speaker 1: that you would end up on a plantation alone with 449 00:30:53,640 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 1: no help, shooting a weapon with the target of your 450 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,960 Speaker 1: later assassination him. So the amount of discipline and courage 451 00:31:03,280 --> 00:31:06,960 Speaker 1: it took to to not use that weapon when you 452 00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,400 Speaker 1: had it in your hand while you're executing a target practice. 453 00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: The amount of discipline I took him not to end 454 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: the mission right then and there is extraordinary. Neil pounded 455 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,200 Speaker 1: down the nail. He got up. The two made their 456 00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,000 Speaker 1: way back to the caretaker's hut. Were sukers, fixed dinner 457 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 1: from the camed food he brought. Darkness had closed in 458 00:31:27,560 --> 00:31:30,000 Speaker 1: and they sat on their camp beds, getting ready to sleep. 459 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:37,080 Speaker 1: Neil was thinking of the past. I remember Tuesday's day, 460 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: the moments of the pouture from my family and hometown, 461 00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,360 Speaker 1: and the whistle of the train as it slowly rolled 462 00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: out of the main station, adorned with dozens of huge 463 00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: Nazi flags. It still rings in my ears. My parents 464 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,840 Speaker 1: stood on the platform and raved goodbye to the fifteen, 465 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,560 Speaker 1: the old sound traveling on his way to a far 466 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:09,280 Speaker 1: off land. At that moment, I felt I was cutting 467 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:13,680 Speaker 1: myself off from everything Chong, preparing to become a proud 468 00:32:13,800 --> 00:32:17,960 Speaker 1: Jew in the land of Israel. I could not help 469 00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: but to think of my family exterminated by murder. Was 470 00:32:22,160 --> 00:32:25,720 Speaker 1: similar to the man who said less than a meter 471 00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 1: away from me from testimonies, I guessed. After the war, 472 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:38,000 Speaker 1: I learned that my father died in Tisan stat in May. 473 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 1: A short while afterwards, my mother was transported to Auschwitz, where, 474 00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 1: together with millions of other Jews, she was murdered by 475 00:32:50,800 --> 00:32:58,800 Speaker 1: the Nazis, who were assisted by monsters like Suckers. Now 476 00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,400 Speaker 1: the butcher was only a few is away. It felt 477 00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: surreal to Meo and an odd way. Suckers was a 478 00:33:04,720 --> 00:33:08,360 Speaker 1: kind of connection to Mio's own family. Suckers had been 479 00:33:08,360 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: there in the middle of the action. He had been 480 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,160 Speaker 1: close enough to touch the Jewish men and women as 481 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:22,440 Speaker 1: they were marched to the death pits. I wonder if 482 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 1: Mio was asking himself the same questions I've been asking 483 00:33:26,080 --> 00:33:29,040 Speaker 1: for the past three years. Why had Suckers done it? 484 00:33:29,600 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 1: Why had he betrayed those people? Mio had the ultimate 485 00:33:32,960 --> 00:33:36,880 Speaker 1: chance to get the answer straight from a Nazi. The 486 00:33:36,920 --> 00:33:40,360 Speaker 1: guy was sitting right there next to him. But Mio, 487 00:33:40,640 --> 00:33:43,960 Speaker 1: when he recalled that moment later on, didn't talk about motives. 488 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 1: He just seemed to accept that Suckers was evil or 489 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: just responsible. The why didn't seem to bother him. He 490 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: wanted to kill the butcher, not psychoanalyze him. That bothers me. 491 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:02,000 Speaker 1: To be honest, is it pointless to ask why Zukers 492 00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: became a killer? If MEO felt satisfied that he understood 493 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 1: the butcher, maybe I should be too. But after thinking 494 00:34:09,200 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 1: about it, I can't agree. Saying Zukers had done evil 495 00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: things wasn't the same as saying that he was a 496 00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,040 Speaker 1: pent evil. There has to be a way to get 497 00:34:19,080 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: closer to his actual reasons for doing what he did. 498 00:34:24,280 --> 00:34:28,600 Speaker 1: The moment passed, Niel saw Zukers slip a pistol under 499 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:32,239 Speaker 1: his pillow. There wasn't anyone around for miles, but the 500 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:36,200 Speaker 1: butcher was still on his card. Hours later, in the 501 00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: darkness of the small hut, he woke up. He saw 502 00:34:39,360 --> 00:34:42,440 Speaker 1: Zuker standing up and taking the gun from underneath the pillow. 503 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,759 Speaker 1: My heart started to race. What was he doing? What's 504 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 1: to be on the safe side. I grabbed my personal weapon. 505 00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:56,680 Speaker 1: It's a poor small pocket knife I had purchased in 506 00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 1: South Boodo. Zukers turned and walked outside. He was just 507 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,360 Speaker 1: going to take a leak with his gun. It was 508 00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:07,360 Speaker 1: almost comical to me. I could not believe the butcher 509 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:10,360 Speaker 1: expected an ambush in the middle of the Brazilian jungle. 510 00:35:11,239 --> 00:35:13,799 Speaker 1: How much harder would it be to assassinate him in 511 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,799 Speaker 1: a foreign country when his paranoia was sure to be 512 00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:20,200 Speaker 1: even more pumped up. I'm sure Mio had the same thoughts. 513 00:35:21,360 --> 00:35:24,080 Speaker 1: Zukers was going to make the kidnapping of Ada Kman 514 00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: look easy. When I spoke to get sh Imran, the 515 00:35:28,440 --> 00:35:31,279 Speaker 1: Massot agent who knew me O, he commented on this, 516 00:35:31,960 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: no doubt that Meal was aware that course is not 517 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:41,680 Speaker 1: an easy target. Of course was suspicious. He was aware 518 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,680 Speaker 1: that he is on the wanted list of some of 519 00:35:44,719 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: the survivors of the Holocaust. And he I mean, first 520 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:52,880 Speaker 1: of all, his awls looked like a like a wild wist, 521 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: fortifications like al aloid. He had guns at home, the 522 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:02,000 Speaker 1: dog bobbed wires, Etceteraight off. It was very, very suspicious 523 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 1: of anybody trying to get too close. Socus from time 524 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,920 Speaker 1: to time expressed his suspicious that something is wrong with 525 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:15,840 Speaker 1: this nice off them businessman or boat of lore appeared 526 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:20,000 Speaker 1: in like life with the promises for golden future and 527 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,520 Speaker 1: excellent business and as we know so was still the 528 00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:30,160 Speaker 1: last moment, was not fully sure that the meal is kosher. 529 00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:38,640 Speaker 1: Sorry for using this Jewish word in this case. Finally 530 00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,720 Speaker 1: Mia went to sleep. He couldn't solve the puzzle yet. 531 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,720 Speaker 1: He had to get closer to this Nazi. He needed 532 00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,120 Speaker 1: more time. He felt he and Sukers had made a 533 00:36:48,160 --> 00:36:51,160 Speaker 1: kind of breakthrough in the jungle. The guy trusted Kunzla, 534 00:36:51,800 --> 00:36:55,120 Speaker 1: or at least it felt like he trusted him, but 535 00:36:55,200 --> 00:36:58,360 Speaker 1: he was about to find out that Bond was fragile. 536 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:02,719 Speaker 1: The Butcher, as it turned out, was hunting Meo as 537 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:16,319 Speaker 1: much as Meo was hunting him. Good assassins. Hunting the 538 00:37:16,360 --> 00:37:20,040 Speaker 1: Butcher is a production of Diversion Podcasts in association with 539 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:23,600 Speaker 1: I Heart Radio. This season is written and hosted by 540 00:37:23,600 --> 00:37:28,000 Speaker 1: Stephen Tulting, produced and directed by Scott Waxman and Jacob Bronstein. 541 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:33,200 Speaker 1: Executive producers Scott Waxman and Mark Francis. Story editing by 542 00:37:33,280 --> 00:37:37,680 Speaker 1: Jacob Bronstein, with editorial direction from Scott Waxman and mangesh 543 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,080 Speaker 1: At Ticket or editing, mixing and sound designed by Mark 544 00:37:41,120 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: Francis with the voices of Nick Avka Thomas Amrie, Angele 545 00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:51,880 Speaker 1: Andrew Polk, Mindy Escobar, Leants, Steve Rautman, and Stefan Rudnitsky. 546 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:57,400 Speaker 1: Theme music by Tyler Cash. Archival research by Adam Shapiro, 547 00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:05,560 Speaker 1: thanks to Oran Rosenbaum at you d A. A special 548 00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: thank you to Kevin Anderson and the Anderson family for 549 00:38:09,360 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: permission to use the Jack Anderson recording, Leah Richardson and 550 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:18,440 Speaker 1: the Special Collections Research Center at George Washington University Library 551 00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:38,160 Speaker 1: in ron Saw diversion