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Speaker 1: This story contains adult content and language. Listener discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: He told me that there would be times at night

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Speaker 2: when they were alone, where he had her convinced, you know,

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Speaker 2: you're not actually God, and she would say, no, you're right,

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Speaker 2: you're right, and then he says, these people would reel

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Speaker 2: her back in.

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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson, a nonfiction author and journalism professor

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Speaker 1: in Austin, Texas. I'm also the co host of the

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Speaker 1: podcast Buried Bones on Exactly Right, and throughout my career,

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Speaker 1: research for my many audio and book projects has taken

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Speaker 1: me around the world. On Wicked Words, I sit down

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Speaker 1: with the people I've met along the way, amazing writers, journalists, filmmakers,

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Speaker 1: and podcasters who have investigated and reported on notorious true

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Speaker 1: crime cases. This is about the choices writers make, both

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Speaker 1: good and bad, and it's a deep dive into the

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Speaker 1: unpublished details behind their stories. What is the origin story

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Speaker 1: of cults? Author Jane Borden says it goes all the

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Speaker 1: way back to the Puritans and their doomsday beliefs. She

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Speaker 1: says that from the beginning, we've been a nation of

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Speaker 1: easy marks for con artists and manipulators. She tells me

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Speaker 1: about her book. Cults like us. I don't remember how

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Speaker 1: long ago you and I met. Your last name specifically

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Speaker 1: is what drew me to you? Of course? Do you

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Speaker 1: remember how we met and what I interviewed you for. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it was the Witcher Clement feud. Isn't that amazing? But

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Speaker 1: you know what you told me is that you are.

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Speaker 2: Related to who I'm also related to, Lizzie Bordon and

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Speaker 2: another Borden that you were exploring to another Bordon murder.

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Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, from the area, so Eliza Borden. Yeah, than

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Speaker 1: Fall River and that was from my other show Tenfoldmore Wicked.

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Speaker 1: And we talked about the Witcher cl feud, right, and

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Speaker 1: just sort of everything, I mean, exploring these family histories

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Speaker 1: and how they're intertwined. But you're a Boarding on your

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Speaker 1: father's side, right, and whicher Clement on my mom's side.

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Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, what a family history I think I have,

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Speaker 1: like a I think I have like a Confederate soldier.

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Speaker 1: And that's about it. And it's my pro baseball player.

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Speaker 1: Lots of lots of murder, lots of murder on my side.

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Speaker 1: Tell me about how you how you got into this book.

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Speaker 1: I mean let's let's introduce you freshly here. You've written

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Speaker 1: some other books before, right, Yes, I my first book

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Speaker 1: was memoir, So this is a bit of a departure.

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Speaker 1: That was a while back.

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Speaker 2: And so I thought originally that I was going to

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Speaker 2: be a religious study scholar. That was my plan, that

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Speaker 2: was my major in undergrad and then I took a

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Speaker 2: gap year and moved to New York and fell into

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Speaker 2: the improv comedy scene kind of randomly, and then just

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Speaker 2: sort of pinballed off in a more creative direction. So

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Speaker 2: I did that for a while, but I always wanted

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Speaker 2: to write, and so my first book was very much

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Speaker 2: a representation of that time of my twenties in New York,

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Speaker 2: exploring the world, growing up. And then I returned to

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Speaker 2: more serious journalism and have just always been fascinated by

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Speaker 2: belief and identity in the intersection of those two. And

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Speaker 2: so then I started reporting on cults for Vanity Fair

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Speaker 2: around twenty seventeen. And it was around that time that

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Speaker 2: I saw and came to understand how divided we are

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Speaker 2: as a nation, and that didn't make a lot of

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Speaker 2: sense to me, because we have so much more in

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Speaker 2: common than we have that distinguishes us, And I was

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Speaker 2: curious as to how we could have come to that conclusion.

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Speaker 2: And I was seeing a lot of the dynamics that

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Speaker 2: I was learning about in my cult reporting in American

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Speaker 2: culture US versus them thinking striving for perfectionism, and I

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Speaker 2: just started to think, you know, I was like, that's curious,

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Speaker 2: And so I started to dig around, where does our

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Speaker 2: knee jerk anti authoritarianism come from? That American you know, individualism.

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Speaker 2: Why do we love always in superheroes so much? Where

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Speaker 2: does that come from? Why have we had so many

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Speaker 2: perfectionist movements in our history? And I just I kept

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Speaker 2: pulling the thread and it took me all the way

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Speaker 2: to the Puritans, and one day it dawned on me.

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Speaker 1: I was like, oh, that's interesting. I think the Puritans

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Speaker 1: and the Pilgrims were cults. They kind of looked.

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Speaker 2: Like cults, and you know, specifically, I call them high

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Speaker 2: control doomsday groups, and we can get into the definitions later,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, I think they their radical doomsday ideas never

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Speaker 2: went away. They became the foundation of American culture, and

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Speaker 2: as a result, we are all still somewhat indoctrinated into

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Speaker 2: these ideas in ways we don't recognize or acknowledge, and

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Speaker 2: that make us credulous to not just to con artists

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Speaker 2: and cult leaders, but also uh salespeople, right.

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Speaker 1: Influencers, charming boyfriends and charming girlfriends who might not have

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Speaker 1: your best interests at heart.

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Speaker 2: Yes, charming narcissists exactly, exactly. And so I wrote this

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Speaker 2: book not only because I find all of this interesting

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Speaker 2: and wanted to pick it apart, but I'm trying to

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Speaker 2: reveal the magic trick so we stop falling for it.

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Speaker 2: I think a lot of Americans are in crisis right now,

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Speaker 2: and people tend toward cult like thinking, whether that's in

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Speaker 2: a specific you know, isolated group, or what I call

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Speaker 2: cult like thinking at the societal level. People are more

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Speaker 2: vulnerable to that when they're in crisis, and I think

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Speaker 2: that's why these ideas are flaring right now in our nation.

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Speaker 1: So tell me what exactly what are the parameters for this?

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Speaker 1: I don't know if there's like a hard and fast rule.

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Speaker 1: Is it a charismatic leader at the very top? What

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Speaker 1: is it that's part of it? So this guy, Robert J.

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Speaker 2: Liften, a psychiatrist, developed a working definition, which is helpful

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Speaker 2: because cult is a slippery word and it gets tossed

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Speaker 2: around a lot, but so most people have come to

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Speaker 2: agree on this definition. It has three characteristics. One is

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Speaker 2: a leader who's worshiped. Sometimes that leader's karas not always,

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Speaker 2: but the worship is the important part. And then there's

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Speaker 2: undue influence happening, thought control, thought reform, coercive control, what

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Speaker 2: we used to call brainwashing. And then finally there's actual

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Speaker 2: harm done. It's a destructive group. Typically that's harm done

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Speaker 2: to members of the group. Typically that's financial and sexual exploitation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, that's very structured those responses.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and some academics reject the word cult altogether just

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Speaker 2: because it's slippery and people throw it around and therefore

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Speaker 2: they don't find it very useful. I find that the

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Speaker 2: fact that people know it and use it makes it

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Speaker 2: more useful. I think it makes people listen when you

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Speaker 2: talk about it. But yeah, so the Puritans did not

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Speaker 2: have you could argue, a charismatic leader. Jesus was their leader, right,

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Speaker 2: and the church magistrates had an excessive amount of power,

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Speaker 2: which they amassed more and more of over time. But

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Speaker 2: it's a little bit different, and so I call them

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Speaker 2: a They were a high control group, specifically a doomsday group.

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Speaker 1: Every cult is a high control group. Not every high

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Speaker 1: control group is a cult, that kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so basically they came to America. The Pilgrims

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Speaker 2: and Puritans, of course were different and different in important ways,

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Speaker 2: but they were all radical Protestants, or what the English

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Speaker 2: at the time called hot Protestants, and they came to

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Speaker 2: America because they wanted to control the way they got

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Speaker 2: to worship. It wasn't really about religious freedom, which is

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Speaker 2: a bit of a myth, because no one else was

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Speaker 2: allowed to worship any other way. They were theocracies, and

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Speaker 2: in fact people of other faiths for a while were

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Speaker 2: kicked out. They hung some Quakers who were particularly rowdy,

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Speaker 2: and over time, as happens in all isolated groups, the

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Speaker 2: leaders amassed more and more power. Particularly up in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 2: The Puritans had a much more formal structure than the

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Speaker 2: Pilgrims did. The Pilgrims were kind of you know, DIY

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Speaker 2: in it. They weren't as strong. They eventually became stronger,

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Speaker 2: but the Puritans in Massachusetts were an incredibly successful colony.

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Speaker 2: They became the bread basket of the Atlantic quickly. I

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Speaker 2: mean within like a decade. They were trading all the

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Speaker 2: way up to Newfoundland and all the way down to

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Speaker 2: the Caribbean, and sending stuff back to England as well.

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Speaker 2: And so both of these groups had investors, which is

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Speaker 2: another thing that we don't tend to understand about them.

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Speaker 2: And so they had to start making money from the

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Speaker 2: jump because they had to pay back their debts. But yes,

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Speaker 2: so over time, the Puritan magistrates started making it harder

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Speaker 2: and harder for people to gain entry into the church,

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Speaker 2: which was a way for them to hold power. So

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Speaker 2: gaining entry into the church was incredibly important if you

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Speaker 2: were in that community, because otherwise you were an outsider.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm assuming you would miss out on business opportunities,

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Speaker 1: you would miss out on being able to marry into

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Speaker 1: a prominent family, I mean a whole list of things.

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Speaker 1: You're shut out of this private club exactly. And then

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Speaker 1: of course, presumably you're not saved. And so people would

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Speaker 1: undergo these extensive trials of self investigation, trying to look

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Speaker 1: within for signs of grace, for signs of election, of

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Speaker 1: being chosen by God. Now, the Puritans and Pilgrims believed

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Speaker 1: in predestination. They said, no one can know whether or

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Speaker 1: not they're chosen. Only God can know, and it's all

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Speaker 1: been predetermined. But we're pretty sure we are, and we're

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Speaker 1: pretty sure that if we look inside long enough we

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Speaker 1: can find the proof. But then the church leaders started saying, oh,

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Speaker 1: are you sure, though, are you sure you found proof?

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Speaker 1: Maybe you should go back and check some more. It

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Speaker 1: was a culture of punishment, extreme punishment designed specifically to

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Speaker 1: humiliate the doctrine was taught in a fear based manner

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Speaker 1: from the pulpit and often at home as well. Kids

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Speaker 1: were taken from their parents and sent to live in

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Speaker 1: other households, sometimes as young as eight, but not always,

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Speaker 1: and this was of course a practice happening in England

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Speaker 1: at the time as well. The idea was that you would.

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Speaker 2: Go learn a trade from another father, but in Massachusetts

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Speaker 2: girls were doing it as well as boys, even though

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Speaker 2: they could have learned homemaking just as easily from their mothers,

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Speaker 2: and boys were doing it even when there wasn't a

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Speaker 2: new trade to be learned. This is why a lot

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Speaker 2: of scholars looking back argue that the actual reason for

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Speaker 2: this practice in Massachusetts was because love spoiled the child,

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Speaker 2: so they didn't want children to be loved too much

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Speaker 2: by their parents. It also put their parents' souls at

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Speaker 2: risk because you weren't allowed to love anything more than God,

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Speaker 2: so you couldn't love your kids that much. Diaries are

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Speaker 2: full of accounts of people who've lost a spouse then

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Speaker 2: like freaking out because they're so sad. They're worried that

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Speaker 2: they're grieving too much. They're worried by how much grief

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Speaker 2: they're experiencing.

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Speaker 1: So one of the biggest signs we have that this

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Speaker 1: was a destructive high control group is that scholars who

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Speaker 1: have poured over the second and third generation diaries from

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Speaker 1: Massachusetts have found during adolescents significant increases in melanchos, anxiety,

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Speaker 1: suicidal thoughts, pathological abnormalities, and of course cults are always

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Speaker 1: most destructive to the kids who grow up inside them.

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Speaker 1: So we then, you know, we're talking about the Puritans,

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Speaker 1: and so this has been with us as a country

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Speaker 1: obviously from the very beginning. What is the next kind

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Speaker 1: of big step where we can draw a line from

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Speaker 1: them to something that's more modern that people you know,

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Speaker 1: people will say, oh, you know, you point to that

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Speaker 1: group and say, well, that's definitely a cult. Or the

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Speaker 1: myriad of documentaries on Netflix or wherever about cults seems

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Speaker 1: like a far cry from the Puritans, and they're punishing

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Speaker 1: religious ways, you know in the sixteen hundreds. How do

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Speaker 1: we make that jump? Is it just those those three

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Speaker 1: things that we talked about.

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Speaker 2: So in the beginning of the book, I explore the

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Speaker 2: Pilgrims and the Puritans a bit, and I identify eight

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Speaker 2: of their foundational doomsday ideologies, and then I take each

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Speaker 2: one of those or most of them, and follow them

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Speaker 2: through secular American history, arguing that they did go secular

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Speaker 2: and they are still affecting us in ways we don't

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Speaker 2: acknowledge in foundational cultural ways. And often, you know, when

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Speaker 2: I was writing the book and people would ask me

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Speaker 2: what it was about, and I would say all this,

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Speaker 2: they would say, well, give me an example.

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Speaker 1: What's a tenant?

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Speaker 2: And the one I always shared is the one most

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Speaker 2: people are familiar with, which is the Puritan work ethic,

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Speaker 2: which has led to our tendency to worship the wealthy.

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Speaker 2: The Puritans believe that God created us specifically so we

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Speaker 2: would worship him, and that the best way to do

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Speaker 2: that was through a calling, by having work and tending

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Speaker 2: to it all the time. I mean, they purged, you know,

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Speaker 2: one hundred days from the calendar turned them into work days.

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Speaker 2: So even though the Puritans were very against acquisitiveness, and

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Speaker 2: they made it very clear on the boat on the

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Speaker 2: way over that if you were looking to make a buck,

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Speaker 2: you should look elsewhere, and that if your neighbor needed money,

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Speaker 2: you were going to give it to them, even if

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Speaker 2: you thought they couldn't repay it. They also believed that

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Speaker 2: if you got some amount of riches, it was just

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Speaker 2: a sign of how hard you had worked and of

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Speaker 2: how much you loved God, and maybe also it was

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Speaker 2: a sign of how much God loved you.

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Speaker 1: Okay, I see where this is going.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And so it didn't take long for things to

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Speaker 2: kind of shift and for acquisitiveness to become not only

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Speaker 2: acceptable but laudable. Cotton Mather said in sixteen nineties, So

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Speaker 2: which would have been, you know, about sixty years into

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Speaker 2: the Puritan experiment, that religion begot prosperity, and then the

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Speaker 2: daughter devoured the mother. Unfortunately, the inverse of the belief

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Speaker 2: that work is holy is the idea that idleness is

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Speaker 2: a sin. The Puritan's hated idleness, you know, the devil's playground.

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Speaker 2: We've all heard these kind of adages over the years.

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Speaker 2: So the idea is that if you don't have money,

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Speaker 2: then that's a sign that you're not working hard, and

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Speaker 2: maybe also that's a sign that God doesn't love you,

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Speaker 2: that he's assessed you and deemed you unworthy. And we

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Speaker 2: see this, I mean, pick any time in American history

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Speaker 2: and we see this, and it's most problematic, of course,

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Speaker 2: when it's.

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Speaker 1: Used specifically to exploit people.

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Speaker 2: During the Gilded Age, this argument was often used as

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Speaker 2: a justification for the robber Baron's incredible wealth. Rockefeller was

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Speaker 2: fond of saying he got his money from God. And

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Speaker 2: we see it with welfare reform programs. I mean Bill

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Speaker 2: Clinton executed one of the biggest overhauls of the welfare

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Speaker 2: system in American history and instituted a lot of welfare

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Speaker 2: to work programs. And I interviewed one historian who at

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Speaker 2: the time was working with an organization helping to pull

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Speaker 2: people out of poverty, and he said a lot of

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Speaker 2: the women he was working.

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Speaker 1: With had to quit school because suddenly they had to.

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Speaker 2: Meet these work requirements in order to get the money

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Speaker 2: they needed, and so actually it kept them in poverty.

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Speaker 2: There have been several studies, in fact, that have shown

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Speaker 2: that have demonstrated that welfare to work programs don't work.

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Speaker 2: They keep people in poverty. What actually pulls people out

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Speaker 2: of poverty is education and job training. However, they're very

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Speaker 2: attractive to the American public. They make some sense to

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Speaker 2: us when we hear it, because we think, well, of

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Speaker 2: course you ought to work. Well, this isn't a handout, right,

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Speaker 2: So this is very deeply entrenched in our minds, this

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Speaker 2: idea that the number in a person's bank account is

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Speaker 2: a reflection of their moral character. And now, of course

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Speaker 2: we know that oftentimes that's not true. Where was the

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Speaker 2: turning point? Do you think with that? When there is

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Speaker 2: all of a sudden a lot of mistrust from all

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Speaker 2: Americans toward people who are exceedingly wealthy in America, I mean,

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Speaker 2: we've had wealthy people and this large gap between the

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Speaker 2: middle and the upper and the middle and the lower,

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Speaker 2: you know, these large gaps. Then when do we start

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Speaker 2: seeing things turn here against maybe the exceedingly wealthy.

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Speaker 1: I hope it's turning.

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Speaker 2: I hope it's turning, because something without a center can't

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Speaker 2: hold And I worry. I worry for the future of

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Speaker 2: our nation if we don't have a middle class. Between

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy five and today sixty five trillion dollars has

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Speaker 2: moved from the bottom ninety percent of Americans to the

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Speaker 2: top ten percent. And I think that's due in large

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Speaker 2: part to our latent indoctrination into the Puritan idea that

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Speaker 2: wealth is a sign of election, of being chosen. We've

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Speaker 2: kind of let it happen. Of course, the more specifically

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Speaker 2: the reason it's happened is because of lobbying and relationships

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Speaker 2: with power that lead to tax breaks and lead free

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Speaker 2: corporations to risky behavior. But this kind of crisis is

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Speaker 2: exactly what leads people to cults and to cult like thinking.

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Speaker 2: The crisis I'm speaking of in this case being chronic

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Speaker 2: under resourcing. People are chronically under resourced in America right now.

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Speaker 2: This has been happening for decades. Americans have blown through

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Speaker 2: their savings, They've taken on debt, they've taken on extra jobs,

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Speaker 2: on and on and on. So sociologists have long known

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Speaker 2: that cult participation increases during times of crisis when people

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Speaker 2: are unmoored for some reason, so after the death of

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Speaker 2: a loved one, after a divorce or a bad breakup,

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Speaker 2: when someone loses a job or gets laid off. These

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Speaker 2: are times when people join cults when they move to

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Speaker 2: new areas. So part of the reason why California has

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Speaker 2: always had such a rich history of cults is not

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Speaker 2: because we're a bunch of wackadoodles out here, but because

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Speaker 2: California has historically been unchurched. The mainline Christian churches didn't

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Speaker 2: really get a foothold out in California for quite some time,

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Speaker 2: which just opened the gate for all sorts of alternative religions,

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Speaker 2: including con artists. This is why colts recruit on college campuses,

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Speaker 2: because suddenly kids are away from home, they don't have

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Speaker 2: their communities. Also, people join cults when we're looking at

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Speaker 2: the societal level, whether that increases in cult like thinking

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Speaker 2: in the general public, or just like macro increases in

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Speaker 2: cult participation during times of technological revolution, social upheaval, and

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Speaker 2: other forms of general crisis. So of course there's an

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Speaker 2: incredible technological revolution happening right now, there's incredible social upheaval.

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Speaker 2: We're going to be majority minority in I don't know,

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Speaker 2: like six or seven more years or something, and we're

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Speaker 2: in crisis. You could argue that global warming is the

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Speaker 2: biggest crisis facing us, but I think presently at the moment,

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Speaker 2: it's being chronically under resourced, and I think that's why

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Speaker 2: we're seeing this huge uptick in cult participation and in

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Speaker 2: cult like thinking.

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Speaker 1: You and I have talked about a couple of cases

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Speaker 1: from your book that are standouts. I think that people

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Speaker 1: maybe had heard of or not heard of, but that

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Speaker 1: can help us draw that line from the beginning with Puritans,

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Speaker 1: who really have a specific doctrine to what we have. Now,

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Speaker 1: which one would you want to talk about first and

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Speaker 1: kind of just set that up for me.

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Speaker 2: I remain fascinated by the group that some people call

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Speaker 2: Love Has Won or the Cult of the Mother God,

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Speaker 2: which is a relatively recent group, especially because most of

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Speaker 2: the people who went to live with Amy Carlson were

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Speaker 2: people experiencing some kind of economic crisis or healthcare crisis.

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Speaker 2: They'd been shut out of the healthcare system, and that's

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Speaker 2: how they found this group. They hit the news in

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Speaker 2: April twenty twenty one, which is when police found her

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Speaker 2: partially decomposed body in a home in Crestone, California, or

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Speaker 2: I say they founded there was a call a tip

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Speaker 2: from the guy who lived there, who I think did

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Speaker 2: not want this body in his home anymore.

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Speaker 1: Miguel Lamboy. He was a member of the group.

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Speaker 2: He was actually the guy running all their finances and

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Speaker 2: all their legal stuff. He's the one who had set

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Speaker 2: them up as a five oh one c three. He

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Speaker 2: was the second Father God. Basically, whoever was Amy's boyfriend

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Speaker 2: was Father God, and there were many over the years.

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Speaker 2: Miguel Lamboy is an interesting figure because it's unclear whether

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Speaker 2: he was a true believer or whether he was the

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Speaker 2: one kind of puppeteering the whole thing. Amy Carlson herself,

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Speaker 2: and to be clear, that's who the corpse was. Amy

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Speaker 2: Carlson herself was not a traditional cult leader. In fact,

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Speaker 2: she started out more like a cult follower. She became

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Speaker 2: radicalized online. She fell down a wormhole, pretty basic stuff

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Speaker 2: at the beginning, you know, angels, ascended masters, and then

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Speaker 2: started getting into some conspiracy theories and eventually fled her

365
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Speaker 2: middle class, unfulfilling life, including her three children and her husband,

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Speaker 2: and just disappeared. Turns out she went to go meet

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Speaker 2: this guy she'd met online. His name was Amareth White Eagle.

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Speaker 2: She had been in Texas. She was a manager at

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Speaker 2: a McDonald's for some time in Houston, Texas, and then

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Speaker 2: she runs off to live with this guy, Amerith White Eagle,

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Speaker 2: who's the first Father God. And so this was the

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Speaker 2: end of two thousand and seven, early two thousand and eight.

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Speaker 2: This is when she came to this idea that she

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Speaker 2: was God, some part of her was God, and eventually

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Speaker 2: she decided actually she was all God. He wasn't really

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Speaker 2: part of it, and she left.

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Speaker 1: I remember reading a quote that was so interesting, you know,

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Speaker 1: from her followers, where it was sort of like especially

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Speaker 1: the men. One guy says, you know, if I really

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Speaker 1: think about it, of course God is a woman, I

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Speaker 1: mean absolutely, and then you know this she's standing before him.

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Speaker 1: And so it was that that kind of connection, which

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Speaker 1: I thought was really interesting, you know, and how she

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Speaker 1: used social media and YouTube tell me kind of the

385
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Speaker 1: depth of it. How many people we've you know, she's

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Speaker 1: attracted to this cult and all that they had.

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Speaker 2: I think she had maybe thirty thousand followers total on

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Speaker 2: the social medias and there were usually two or three

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Speaker 2: dozen in living in the compound at any time, and

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Speaker 2: then there were kind of people all over the world.

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Speaker 1: Now, once she you know, declares herself as God and

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Speaker 1: she's got Father God, and I know she has the

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Speaker 1: YouTube channel and everything is part of the cult structure

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Speaker 1: that you have the charismatic leader, who I think Amy

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Speaker 1: really was. And the second part of that is how

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Speaker 1: they make money. And so how did she sustain, you know,

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Speaker 1: up to forty people living on a compound.

398
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Speaker 2: She was claimed to be a healer, so she was

399
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Speaker 2: selling etheric surgery sessions online and this guy, Miguel Lamboy,

400
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Speaker 2: the Second Father God, claims that she cured his cancer.

401
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Speaker 2: They were also eventually selling essential oils, crystals, all sorts

402
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Speaker 2: of healing ideas, and so people who went online searching for,

403
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Speaker 2: you know, I have this condition, how do I heal

404
00:22:56,119 --> 00:23:00,719
Speaker 2: it would sometimes be funneled to her page. Her videos

405
00:23:00,720 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: were watched one point five million times in total over

406
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Speaker 2: the years, and so that was where most of their

407
00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,600
Speaker 2: money came from. And then of course they were also

408
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Speaker 2: selling colloidal silver, and the colloidal silver she believed was

409
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Speaker 2: a panacea of sorts. They weren't the first people to

410
00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:19,159
Speaker 2: claim this. Colloidal silver is literally just tiny particles of

411
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Speaker 2: silver suspended in liquid.

412
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Speaker 1: That you drink. You're supposed to drink it, that's right,

413
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Speaker 1: you drink it.

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Speaker 2: Yes, Supposedly it helps with a variety of issues, most

415
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Speaker 2: especially immune system support.

416
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Speaker 1: None of this has ever been supported by science.

417
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Speaker 2: She was ingesting quite a bit of it, and in fact,

418
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Speaker 2: that was one of her causes of death. The corner

419
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Speaker 2: cited the causes of death as alcohol abuse, anorexia, and

420
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Speaker 2: chronic colloidal silver ingestion. The colloidal silver turns your skin

421
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Speaker 2: bluw it. It leads to a condition called urgeria, which

422
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:54,639
Speaker 2: causes the skin to turn this grayish, bluish purplish color.

423
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Speaker 2: And in fact, when the police entered Lamboy's home in

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Speaker 2: twenty twenty one and saw the body, which had been

425
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Speaker 2: decorated with Christmas lights, it had this bluish tinge to it,

426
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Speaker 2: and you can hear in the body camera footage one

427
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Speaker 2: cop saying, oh, they painted her, and then the other

428
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Speaker 2: cop is like, no, I think that's just decomposition. But

429
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Speaker 2: in fact it was from the colloidal silver. She had

430
00:24:17,119 --> 00:24:22,120
Speaker 2: begun to decompose her eye, her eyeballs had started to recede,

431
00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:25,240
Speaker 2: and they had filled the sockets a little bit with glitter.

432
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 2: So they were still very much worshiping her, and it's

433
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: unclear whether or not some people thought she was still alive.

434
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:36,720
Speaker 2: It's also unclear when exactly she died because they thought

435
00:24:37,200 --> 00:24:39,679
Speaker 2: she was still alive for some time, even after she

436
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:42,520
Speaker 2: clearly wasn't. And that's the whole thing, which we can

437
00:24:42,560 --> 00:24:45,719
Speaker 2: get into now. But so she starts failing. At one

438
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:48,639
Speaker 2: point she loses the ability to walk, She loses the

439
00:24:48,680 --> 00:24:51,600
Speaker 2: ability to move her body from the waist down again.

440
00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:54,439
Speaker 2: It's unclear why, but at least some former members have

441
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,560
Speaker 2: speculated that this was nerve damage from alcoholism.

442
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 1: She was definitely an alcoholic.

443
00:25:00,080 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 2: Some have posited that this was death by addiction, that

444
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:06,199
Speaker 2: the cause of death was addiction, that she was knowingly

445
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:10,280
Speaker 2: killing herself. It was a huge party all the time.

446
00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 2: I interviewed for the book this guy, Andrew Prafacci, who

447
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:17,840
Speaker 2: was the third Father God, and he joined the group

448
00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: after finding her online and he dreamed about her six

449
00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 2: nights in a row and he thought that was profound.

450
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 2: And then they were messaging online and she told him

451
00:25:26,600 --> 00:25:29,359
Speaker 2: she'd been dreaming about him as well, convinced him to

452
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 2: come out. So he drops everything, makes this huge trip,

453
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:36,200
Speaker 2: gets out there, shows up in the middle of the night,

454
00:25:36,680 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 2: and he says, the moment he walked in the room,

455
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 2: he thought, oh no, I've made a mistake. There's no

456
00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 2: way God lives here because the place was a disaster.

457
00:25:47,119 --> 00:25:50,480
Speaker 2: He eventually found her sitting up in a chair, conscious

458
00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 2: but nonverbal and drooling. She had been drinking and consuming

459
00:25:56,080 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: psilocybin mushrooms for two days street but regardless, he stayed

460
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:03,760
Speaker 2: because he thought this was somewhat of a challenge or something,

461
00:26:03,840 --> 00:26:06,840
Speaker 2: and he'd come all that way. Sunk costs right, and

462
00:26:06,880 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: he falls in love with her, and he becomes a

463
00:26:08,840 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 2: father god, and he becomes to care for her so much,

464
00:26:12,240 --> 00:26:16,600
Speaker 2: and also throughout is fully aware of what isn't isn't

465
00:26:16,640 --> 00:26:20,120
Speaker 2: true and real right that he starts trying to pull

466
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,560
Speaker 2: her out. And he told me that there would be

467
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:25,440
Speaker 2: times at night when they were alone where he had

468
00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,399
Speaker 2: her convinced, you know, you're not actually God, and she

469
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 2: would say, no, you're right, you're right. And then he says,

470
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:36,880
Speaker 2: Meguel Lamboy would reel her back in. And I'm sure

471
00:26:36,920 --> 00:26:39,760
Speaker 2: he wasn't the only one, because these people needed her,

472
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: They needed the control and comfort that this group allowed them.

473
00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:48,160
Speaker 1: Let's go back to that mindset. So before she gets sick,

474
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: kind of at the height of this group, you said,

475
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, you've got a couple of dozen people living

476
00:26:53,119 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: out on this compound. What happens what is the day

477
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:01,240
Speaker 1: to day? Do they pray to her? Are they tending

478
00:27:01,280 --> 00:27:03,600
Speaker 1: to vegetables? What is life like if you are a

479
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 1: part of this Mother God? Is what I call it cult?

480
00:27:06,840 --> 00:27:09,520
Speaker 2: It was a lot of hanging out it really, no truly,

481
00:27:09,600 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 2: I mean I asked Andrew, like, why did people come?

482
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 2: And some people came to be healed? And he said,

483
00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,840
Speaker 2: some people came to party. Wow, it was a big

484
00:27:17,880 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 2: party all day long.

485
00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:22,400
Speaker 1: But were they believers? And what was she espousing exactly

486
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,960
Speaker 1: besides the sort of you know, the new age surgical

487
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: stuff or healing.

488
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 2: She argued that she was nineteen billion years old, that

489
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,159
Speaker 2: she had lived over five hundred lives. I think in

490
00:27:35,200 --> 00:27:38,280
Speaker 2: one of her past lives on Atlantis, maybe Donald Trump

491
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 2: was her father. So sometimes current modern people would also

492
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 2: appear in their past lives. There was a collection of

493
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:49,879
Speaker 2: celebrities who were advising and guiding her. Robin Williams, I

494
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 2: saw was one. Yep, Robin Williams was one. He joined

495
00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 2: the group after he died. Supposedly she was a big

496
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 2: fan of his and her job she had been chosen.

497
00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,719
Speaker 2: She says that much earlier in her life she had

498
00:28:02,760 --> 00:28:05,160
Speaker 2: started to hear voices telling her you know that you've

499
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,560
Speaker 2: been chosen to clear all of the world's negative energy

500
00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:13,760
Speaker 2: to save the world, to rescue the world. Salvation Messiah right.

501
00:28:14,119 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 2: And because she was this chosen all powerful one, a

502
00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,000
Speaker 2: secret cabal had been after her trying to stop this,

503
00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 2: trying to assassinate her. And so the idea is that

504
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,920
Speaker 2: after she had completed her task, which was depleting her physically,

505
00:28:30,960 --> 00:28:34,439
Speaker 2: so as she's beginning to fail, her followers are seeing

506
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 2: this as oh, it's working right, this is the result

507
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,040
Speaker 2: of the world's negative.

508
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:39,480
Speaker 1: Energy on her.

509
00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:42,920
Speaker 2: So the idea is that after she completed her task,

510
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:46,440
Speaker 2: and by you know, twenty eighteen, they said she had

511
00:28:46,440 --> 00:28:50,360
Speaker 2: processed ninety nine point three percent, that she would ascend.

512
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 2: She would leave the three D plane, the three D world,

513
00:28:54,120 --> 00:28:58,040
Speaker 2: and enter the five D plane. And there were a

514
00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,160
Speaker 2: few different suppositions over the year about why this was happened,

515
00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: but eventually they came to believe that a literal spaceship

516
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 2: was coming to pick her up, and that Robin Williams

517
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,440
Speaker 2: had told them that she could not weigh any more

518
00:29:10,480 --> 00:29:13,480
Speaker 2: than one hundred and three point one pounds in order

519
00:29:13,520 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 2: for her to be able to physically ascend, and they

520
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: were outside at night, you know, scanning the skies for

521
00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:24,240
Speaker 2: this spaceship that was coming to get her. As she

522
00:29:24,600 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 2: continues to fail. At this point, another father god has appeared,

523
00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: who was really not mentally sound. I don't think he's

524
00:29:33,120 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 2: ever sat down for any kind of tests, so I

525
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:38,880
Speaker 2: can't be more specific than that. But he gets into

526
00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:41,480
Speaker 2: the picture and everything becomes a little more volatile. He

527
00:29:41,560 --> 00:29:44,240
Speaker 2: starts carrying her around everywhere, of course, because she can't

528
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,160
Speaker 2: move from the waist down, and she's losing more and

529
00:29:47,240 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 2: more weight, and all the while, she's asking for more

530
00:29:52,080 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 2: colloidal silver, and she's asking for more beer.

531
00:29:54,920 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 1: She calls beer.

532
00:29:56,000 --> 00:30:00,840
Speaker 2: And other drugs her medicine. She's also as she gets

533
00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 2: drunker and sicker, she's also becoming more volatile herself. And

534
00:30:06,880 --> 00:30:11,280
Speaker 2: whereas in the beginning she's been described as this fun,

535
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 2: bubbly mannered personality, Andrew Perfacci told me he was like

536
00:30:16,240 --> 00:30:18,440
Speaker 2: she had manners. And he also told me that she

537
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: was really good at calling people out on their baggage.

538
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:24,320
Speaker 2: He said she was terrible at seeing it in herself,

539
00:30:24,960 --> 00:30:28,000
Speaker 2: but that she was actually helping people. You know, some

540
00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: people are good at that. Some people are natural therapists,

541
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: I guess, But Over time, it became much more. She

542
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 2: became much more demanding and harassing. She and other people

543
00:30:39,400 --> 00:30:43,280
Speaker 2: who had power began to control how much people could eat,

544
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,280
Speaker 2: how much people could sleep, who they could and couldn't

545
00:30:46,520 --> 00:30:48,800
Speaker 2: have sex with. And these, of course are all classic

546
00:30:49,040 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: cult tactics. And I don't think that's because she was

547
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 2: following any kind of playbook. I think that's because these

548
00:30:56,400 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 2: are the patterns that isolated groups follow. And these are

549
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:03,240
Speaker 2: the pattern is that a person whose accumulated unchecked power

550
00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:07,959
Speaker 2: falls into naturally. These are just the dynamics that naturally occur.

551
00:31:08,600 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 2: So apparently people would be you know, called in and

552
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 2: sat down and accosted for hours, sometimes in a group

553
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 2: setting where everyone was encouraged to accost them. They called

554
00:31:19,600 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: this a game called find the Horror. So things started

555
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:24,360
Speaker 2: to get dark.

556
00:31:24,640 --> 00:31:27,680
Speaker 1: Do you think those moments where you're talking about a

557
00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:30,840
Speaker 1: tighter grip and I don't know if that's alcoholism or

558
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:34,680
Speaker 1: what starts to happen because you said it's really kind

559
00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: of two thousand and eight ish, is when she starts

560
00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:40,960
Speaker 1: formulating these ideas right with the first father, god or boyfriend.

561
00:31:41,480 --> 00:31:45,200
Speaker 1: And then you know, when when is she accumulate these

562
00:31:45,480 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 1: these actual physical followers. Is that just over time, over

563
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: the next ten years until we hit the pandemic, Yes,

564
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 1: over time.

565
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 2: By twenty fourteen, she's got, you know, a house with

566
00:31:57,880 --> 00:32:02,560
Speaker 2: people living there. That's when Profacci and people were in

567
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 2: and out constantly. Right.

568
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 1: Some people just showed up because they were curious.

569
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:08,720
Speaker 2: Like I said, a lot of people just came because

570
00:32:08,720 --> 00:32:10,400
Speaker 2: they wanted to party for a while and then they

571
00:32:10,440 --> 00:32:11,719
Speaker 2: would you know, blow.

572
00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,800
Speaker 1: And then there were hardcore believers. A couple of.

573
00:32:15,720 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: Young women who went by the names of Aurora and

574
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:23,160
Speaker 2: Faith made most of the videos that you can find online.

575
00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:27,280
Speaker 2: And again they were always selling stuff, and they were

576
00:32:27,480 --> 00:32:30,800
Speaker 2: talking about Mom as they called her, and Mom's ascension

577
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:33,600
Speaker 2: and how she's doing, and they were talking about the

578
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:36,920
Speaker 2: evil cabal. You know, Mom told them never take me

579
00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: to a hospital, which sadly came back into play and

580
00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,840
Speaker 2: is partially why she died because she did reach a

581
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:46,880
Speaker 2: point where she asked for help and they were like,

582
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 2: no way, you said, you said not to take you

583
00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:49,479
Speaker 2: to a hospital.

584
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:51,239
Speaker 1: We're not doing it. Well, That's what I was going

585
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 1: to ask you, is you know, is there a moment

586
00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: with a lot of these cult leaders. You know, I

587
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: know it's hard to untangle whether they believe themselves or not.

588
00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 1: But is there a moment where, you know, literally the

589
00:33:02,960 --> 00:33:05,440
Speaker 1: kool aids at their lips and they think, I don't

590
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:07,760
Speaker 1: believe this myself, you know, or I've been faking the

591
00:33:07,800 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: whole time, or what do I do next? Because I

592
00:33:10,480 --> 00:33:12,400
Speaker 1: felt like with Amy when she said I want to

593
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:14,040
Speaker 1: go to the hospital and they said, no, of course

594
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: you don't want to do that, blah blah blah. Is

595
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:18,760
Speaker 1: that her moment do you think where she just went, shit,

596
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 1: what am I going? I'm going to die if I

597
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 1: don't get actual help. I think she had a lot

598
00:33:22,560 --> 00:33:24,440
Speaker 1: of those moments. I mean, I think if she was

599
00:33:24,480 --> 00:33:27,840
Speaker 1: willing to admit to Andrew, no, you're right, I'm not God,

600
00:33:28,200 --> 00:33:30,200
Speaker 1: then she must have been thinking about this all the time.

601
00:33:30,640 --> 00:33:34,640
Speaker 1: But I think she was always drunk, and I think

602
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 1: she had created this cosmology that then entrapped her and

603
00:33:39,320 --> 00:33:40,280
Speaker 1: she couldn't get out of it.

604
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: And I think that this is also a little bit

605
00:33:44,520 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 2: of the dynamics that come into play with alcoholism or

606
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 2: with any kind of addiction. I should say she became

607
00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 2: trapped in that cycle, and the people around her aided

608
00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 2: and abetted her addiction and to be clear, I don't

609
00:33:56,880 --> 00:33:59,680
Speaker 2: think the addiction was just to substances. I think she

610
00:33:59,760 --> 00:34:03,000
Speaker 2: was a to being God. I think she was addicted

611
00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,160
Speaker 2: to that power and didn't want to give it up,

612
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 2: And so that's the deal she struck. She had to

613
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 2: have known, and even Andrew agrees. He told me she

614
00:34:11,280 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 2: had to have known that she was sending herself to

615
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:13,560
Speaker 2: the grave.

616
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:19,240
Speaker 1: Are there cults that survive after the leader dies? Because

617
00:34:19,239 --> 00:34:21,799
Speaker 1: I know this has been factioned, right, there's factions of

618
00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:26,120
Speaker 1: this group now after she's gone. Yes, so often these

619
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:30,359
Speaker 1: groups will live on afterward. Now, if the leader's gone,

620
00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:32,520
Speaker 1: are they still a cult? That might be when the

621
00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:36,439
Speaker 1: definition changes. And in fact, you know, people say cult

622
00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:37,760
Speaker 1: plus time equals religion.

623
00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:42,239
Speaker 2: I think what they're actually saying is cult minus charismatic

624
00:34:42,360 --> 00:34:46,719
Speaker 2: leader equals religion, because when you have a shared power structure,

625
00:34:47,120 --> 00:34:49,640
Speaker 2: you're automatically not going to have the same kind of

626
00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:54,080
Speaker 2: abuses and exploitation occurring when there's no longer a person

627
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: with unchecked power who's falling prey to the effects of

628
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:01,759
Speaker 2: power on that person's psychology. So, yes, Love is One

629
00:35:01,800 --> 00:35:04,839
Speaker 2: is still going. They don't call themselves that anymore. There's

630
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,560
Speaker 2: two different branches the last Father God. This guy Castillo.

631
00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 2: You can find the web page joy rains are ai

632
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:20,360
Speaker 2: ns dot com. He's offering services for money. He claims

633
00:35:20,400 --> 00:35:23,040
Speaker 2: that he is now both mother and father God, that

634
00:35:23,120 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 2: when she left the three D plane, three D world,

635
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 2: she entered him. There's a lot of pictures of them

636
00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,960
Speaker 2: on there. There's a lot of word solid on there.

637
00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 2: There's a lot of strange fonts and bright colors. And

638
00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:39,279
Speaker 2: then the two women I mentioned earlier who go buy

639
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,360
Speaker 2: Aurora in faith, They've started an organization called five D

640
00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,239
Speaker 2: Full Disclosure. They also have a dot org website and

641
00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: on there they've got their show still going. They're selling

642
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 2: certain items. They have a page on there dedicated to Mom,

643
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:03,080
Speaker 2: but nothing really else on the website references much the

644
00:36:03,080 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 2: previous group.

645
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: I want to ask you this, and then I want

646
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,280
Speaker 1: to move on to something else. What I find interesting

647
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:13,000
Speaker 1: about that group is I know that there was coercion

648
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 1: and control. Later on, I'm so used to reading about

649
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 1: cults where the leader just kind of destroys everybody around them,

650
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: and this seems like, you know, she died, and it

651
00:36:25,880 --> 00:36:27,840
Speaker 1: just seemed like a little bit of a flip script

652
00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: in a way. And then the whole group broke apart.

653
00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: It didn't seem like the traditional ending for one of

654
00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:35,720
Speaker 1: these cults.

655
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:37,760
Speaker 2: And that's what's so fascinating to me about it. I'm

656
00:36:38,080 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 2: especially interested in the fact that she suffered from anorexia,

657
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 2: which is a disease often associated with anxiety and with

658
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,600
Speaker 2: desires for control. And I was fascinated by the fact

659
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:53,440
Speaker 2: that her followers kind of ended up taking the reins.

660
00:36:54,040 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 2: It blurred the lines. Yeah, and you know, most groups,

661
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 2: most cults do not end in violence. Most cults dissipate

662
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 2: long before that, which is really just a sign of

663
00:37:06,640 --> 00:37:10,720
Speaker 2: exactly how many cults there are, right that there's still

664
00:37:11,080 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 2: so many warranting the number of documentaries in my streamer feed. Right.

665
00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:20,360
Speaker 2: The cults that do end in violence are almost always

666
00:37:20,480 --> 00:37:24,160
Speaker 2: ones that isolated themselves in some way or another. As

667
00:37:24,200 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 2: I mentioned earlier, when a group is isolated, certain dynamics

668
00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: come into play, sociological dynamics that are hard to break

669
00:37:31,200 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 2: free from and lead to what sociologists call a violence

670
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:36,720
Speaker 2: amplification loop.

671
00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: That's often what's going on there now.

672
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:43,919
Speaker 2: If she had not suffered from alcohol addiction and anorexia

673
00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:48,000
Speaker 2: and chosen to ingest so much colloidal silver who knows

674
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:51,520
Speaker 2: where things would have gone. Right, There was some talk,

675
00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:54,600
Speaker 2: mostly from this guy Castillo once he came on the scene,

676
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 2: of being willing to die for Mom, that everyone should

677
00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,239
Speaker 2: be willing to die for her. Knowing that this is

678
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:04,480
Speaker 2: the direction, knowing the pattern that these groups follow once

679
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 2: they've become isolated, it's certainly possible that it might have

680
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: gone in the more traditional path. I wouldn't be surprised,

681
00:38:12,400 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: but because of who she was and the choices she made,

682
00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:16,759
Speaker 2: we'll never know.

683
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: You have to think that, or maybe I'm the only

684
00:38:20,160 --> 00:38:23,319
Speaker 1: one that thinks this. That the pandemic must have just

685
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 1: triggered all sorts of organizations like this, or was a

686
00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: milestone as an end of days Noom's Day for some

687
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,799
Speaker 1: of the cults that were already in existence, Or am

688
00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:36,000
Speaker 1: my off base here? No?

689
00:38:36,480 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 2: I think certainly I didn't do a lot of digging

690
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 2: into that, but yes, is my assumption. I mean, first

691
00:38:41,960 --> 00:38:44,359
Speaker 2: of all, it's estimated right now that there's about ten

692
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: thousand cults in America. That number's already a little dated,

693
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,120
Speaker 2: but the estimates from the aughts were five thousand.

694
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,640
Speaker 1: Wow, so we're seeing increases.

695
00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,760
Speaker 2: I think, no matter which way you spin it, those numbers,

696
00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,239
Speaker 2: of course, are shifty. It's possible to figure out because

697
00:39:01,280 --> 00:39:03,200
Speaker 2: these groups don't want to be found. And also a

698
00:39:03,239 --> 00:39:05,520
Speaker 2: lot of cults are just a few people, right, I

699
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,239
Speaker 2: mean the guy Sarah Lawrence being a classic example. The

700
00:39:09,280 --> 00:39:11,799
Speaker 2: place we get these numbers from is complaints, people who

701
00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,520
Speaker 2: call into organizations about certain groups. Yeah, I mean, COVID

702
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:20,560
Speaker 2: is a time when people felt incredibly out of control, unmoored,

703
00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: with a lot of free time on their hands. And

704
00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:25,879
Speaker 2: I think that's especially when we saw huge increases in

705
00:39:26,440 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 2: groups that recruit online or that exist solely online, which

706
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,080
Speaker 2: is again an isolating experience. Even if you're not in

707
00:39:36,080 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 2: the woods somewhere on a commune, you've been isolated from

708
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,680
Speaker 2: your family and friends when you fall into an internet

709
00:39:42,920 --> 00:39:44,080
Speaker 2: rabbit hole like this.

710
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: You know, for a project not involving my podcast, I

711
00:39:48,320 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: was researching cults, you know, in the eighteen hundreds, kind

712
00:39:51,680 --> 00:39:55,080
Speaker 1: of attached that would later become religions, and so I

713
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:58,839
Speaker 1: was reading about Millerism. I guess, William did you look

714
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 1: into William Miller? I mean, how fascinating And then it

715
00:40:01,600 --> 00:40:06,200
Speaker 1: turns into be the Seventh Day Adventists, You know, how

716
00:40:06,239 --> 00:40:08,000
Speaker 1: that even happens that's right. Yeah.

717
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,279
Speaker 2: And then from there, eventually, if you keep following the

718
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 2: tree as it branches off, it turns into Waco. Yeah.

719
00:40:14,160 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 1: Branch Davidians, Well, do you have any kind of a

720
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:21,879
Speaker 1: sense of the cults that people are most familiar with?

721
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 1: So Branch Davidians and Jonestown and you know some of

722
00:40:26,080 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 1: the stuff that we've mentioned. Are these leaders that believe it?

723
00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: They really believe that they are God or Jesus or

724
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: whatever there or whatever it is, or is this like

725
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 1: a Ponzi scheme? Or is it both?

726
00:40:38,719 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 2: I mean I think all of the above. And this

727
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:43,399
Speaker 2: is the part that's most fascinating to me is does

728
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,280
Speaker 2: the leader believe it or not? And did they always

729
00:40:46,280 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 2: and did that change? I mean, you look at someone

730
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 2: like father Yode in the family out here in Los Angeles,

731
00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,080
Speaker 2: the Source, the Source family, he seems and of course

732
00:40:58,120 --> 00:41:01,040
Speaker 2: we're always guessing because these people don't answer that question.

733
00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 2: But he seems to have been a con honors from

734
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,600
Speaker 2: the start, and then he seems to have fallen for

735
00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,759
Speaker 2: his own arguments. There seems to be a point at

736
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,640
Speaker 2: which he came to believe that maybe he was this

737
00:41:12,719 --> 00:41:17,719
Speaker 2: all powerful being and he died because he went hang

738
00:41:17,760 --> 00:41:22,480
Speaker 2: gliding without any training because he just thought I could fly, yeah,

739
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:25,880
Speaker 2: and he couldn't and he plummeted to his death. So

740
00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:30,960
Speaker 2: that's a very interesting case. Another one is Elizabeth Claire Prophet.

741
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:34,840
Speaker 2: She led the group Church Universal and Triumphant, which was

742
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: out in Montana toward the end, although they were all

743
00:41:37,280 --> 00:41:39,760
Speaker 2: over the place, and just side note, almost every cult

744
00:41:39,760 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: has at one point been in California. Oh no, really,

745
00:41:42,560 --> 00:41:45,560
Speaker 2: love has one was in California at some point in

746
00:41:45,680 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 2: Church Universal triumph it was as well. But they got

747
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:53,200
Speaker 2: famous because they built those underground bunkers in Montana very

748
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,160
Speaker 2: close to Yellowstone. There was a big oil spill that

749
00:41:56,239 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 2: got them some attention. They got arrested for buying weapons illegally,

750
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 2: that got them some attention. But Elizabeth Claire Prophet is

751
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:08,040
Speaker 2: just a fascinating human to me, and I've spoken extensively

752
00:42:08,080 --> 00:42:10,400
Speaker 2: with her son, and I've asked him this question.

753
00:42:10,440 --> 00:42:11,839
Speaker 1: You know, do you think she believed it?

754
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:15,120
Speaker 2: And I think to a certain degree she did, But

755
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 2: I think part of her just wanted power.

756
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:18,880
Speaker 1: You know.

757
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 2: When she got involved, it was a different organization. It

758
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:26,160
Speaker 2: was called the Summit Lighthouse that was led by Mark Prophet.

759
00:42:26,760 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 2: She comes onto the scene and look, she was into

760
00:42:31,040 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 2: a variety of alternative religions growing up.

761
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 1: Okay, so this was always part of her.

762
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 2: She gets interested in this group, Summit Lighthouse, and she

763
00:42:39,320 --> 00:42:42,000
Speaker 2: sidles up to power. She and Mark fall in love,

764
00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,439
Speaker 2: he leaves his wife, they get married, and then very

765
00:42:45,480 --> 00:42:47,959
Speaker 2: shortly after he's like, you know what, I'm hearing these

766
00:42:47,960 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 2: messages from the ascended Masters that they want her also

767
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,360
Speaker 2: to be receiving messages from them. So she becomes a

768
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:58,600
Speaker 2: leader in the group. She starts doing dictations where she's

769
00:42:58,680 --> 00:43:00,560
Speaker 2: just you know, speaking in front of audiences with her

770
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:03,919
Speaker 2: eyes closed, as if she's speaking in the voice of

771
00:43:04,160 --> 00:43:07,600
Speaker 2: Elmria or Saint Germain or whoever's talking through her, but

772
00:43:07,680 --> 00:43:12,640
Speaker 2: really she's just speaking extemporaneously. Right Mark dies, she becomes

773
00:43:12,680 --> 00:43:14,359
Speaker 2: the leader of the group, changes the name of it,

774
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:19,040
Speaker 2: and it explodes. She was a very successful spiritual leader.

775
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:23,080
Speaker 2: Church Universal and Triumphant has a wide global reach, lots

776
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:26,640
Speaker 2: of people living out there in the Montana compound, lots

777
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 2: of people spending tens of thousands of dollars for a

778
00:43:30,320 --> 00:43:34,440
Speaker 2: bed in the bunker. Right because she said the Russians

779
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:36,000
Speaker 2: were going to drop a bomb, that that was the

780
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,759
Speaker 2: way God had decided to kick off the apocalypse was

781
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:42,880
Speaker 2: with nuclear war. They were going to be prepared. So

782
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:46,600
Speaker 2: she's always wanted power, she's always been close to it.

783
00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:50,400
Speaker 2: And there were little, you know, hints along the way,

784
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:53,120
Speaker 2: little hypocrisies, right, like she would say one thing and

785
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:55,680
Speaker 2: then she would do something different, or different rules would

786
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 2: apply for her family, for her kids, and for other people.

787
00:43:58,840 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 2: There are signs that maybe she didn't she wasn't a

788
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:04,480
Speaker 2: true believer, but it seems unlikely that she didn't believe

789
00:44:04,640 --> 00:44:07,560
Speaker 2: any of it. It's fascinating, yes, I mean that's a

790
00:44:07,560 --> 00:44:09,800
Speaker 2: part I enjoy the most about this, that mystery.

791
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: Well then you look at like a Heaven's gate where

792
00:44:13,040 --> 00:44:16,480
Speaker 1: you've got, you know, these leaders who ended up with

793
00:44:16,680 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 1: a mass suicide thirty nine people in nineteen ninety seven,

794
00:44:20,520 --> 00:44:22,879
Speaker 1: you would have to think they are true believers, right,

795
00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:26,160
Speaker 1: I mean, this is the ultimate test. They did it.

796
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:29,760
Speaker 1: But what about Manson? I mean, Manson just directed people.

797
00:44:29,800 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 1: Do you think he bought into it his own stuff?

798
00:44:32,719 --> 00:44:35,120
Speaker 1: I'm not an expert on the Manson murders.

799
00:44:35,360 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 2: He certainly had charisma and seemed to be more political

800
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:46,880
Speaker 2: and social activism than cosmology. But again I'm not an expert.

801
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: There were so many drugs going on, it's hard to

802
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 2: kind of know who did and didn't believe what. But

803
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: Mars Marshall, Applewhite for sure, with Heaven's Gate, all of

804
00:44:56,120 --> 00:44:58,480
Speaker 2: those guys, I mean that guy, I don't think there

805
00:44:58,520 --> 00:45:00,440
Speaker 2: was an ounce of him that didn't believe that stuff.

806
00:45:00,640 --> 00:45:04,640
Speaker 1: He was saying koresh too. I would think that one's tough. Again.

807
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:07,120
Speaker 2: He reminds me a little bit of Elizabeth Claire prophet.

808
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:10,520
Speaker 2: He shows up into an existing organization, finds a way

809
00:45:10,560 --> 00:45:12,719
Speaker 2: to take it over. Right, there was a coup, he

810
00:45:12,760 --> 00:45:16,360
Speaker 2: gets control, so clearly he wants power. Clearly he had

811
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,680
Speaker 2: some kind of uh, he had some chips on his shoulder, right,

812
00:45:21,040 --> 00:45:25,160
Speaker 2: he was sort of exercising his own agendas right on

813
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:28,200
Speaker 2: top of whatever he did or didn't believe. And then

814
00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 2: I think at a certain point they were on a

815
00:45:30,880 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 2: path and there was no getting off the path. So

816
00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: why not lean into the so called beliefs whether or

817
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 2: not he believed them, I think it's impossible to know.

818
00:45:40,080 --> 00:45:41,800
Speaker 1: And I know I've kind of touched on this before,

819
00:45:41,880 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: but I think this is an interesting way to end it.

820
00:45:44,040 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: You know, when we're looking at this vast history of cults,

821
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:50,440
Speaker 1: you know, these controversial organizations and groups led by one person,

822
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:53,479
Speaker 1: and when that person goes away or quits, or comes

823
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: to their senses or dies or whatever, are these organizations

824
00:45:57,320 --> 00:46:00,480
Speaker 1: ever as successful as they once were un or that

825
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:04,239
Speaker 1: one kind of cult of personality, or do they tend

826
00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:05,440
Speaker 1: to fracture.

827
00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: If the cult leader dies or disappears, that's when most

828
00:46:09,080 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 2: people go poof because the connection between the cult leader

829
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 2: and the followers is so strong, and exit counselors and

830
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 2: people trying to get people out of cults will say,

831
00:46:19,960 --> 00:46:21,480
Speaker 2: you're not going to be able to get through to

832
00:46:21,520 --> 00:46:23,840
Speaker 2: someone as long as they're still plugged into the leader.

833
00:46:24,160 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: You have to separate them. That's the only way. And

834
00:46:27,160 --> 00:46:30,960
Speaker 2: so I think when that connection is broken, that's when

835
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,320
Speaker 2: you see groups dissipate, often but not always, also following

836
00:46:35,320 --> 00:46:38,440
Speaker 2: a failure of prophecy. You know, for example, in Church

837
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:42,120
Speaker 2: Universal and Triumphant, Doomsday didn't the bombs didn't drop right,

838
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 2: And of course every Doomsday group through history has experienced

839
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:47,200
Speaker 2: a failure of prophecy.

840
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:49,080
Speaker 1: We usually see about.

841
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,320
Speaker 2: A third of cult followers will typically leave at that point,

842
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,120
Speaker 2: but those who stay become even more loyal, and this

843
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 2: actually is the coining of the phrase cognitive dissonance with

844
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,680
Speaker 2: some researchers who looking into a group in the fifties

845
00:47:01,760 --> 00:47:05,799
Speaker 2: called the Seekers, and this woman, Dorothy Martin, had, you know,

846
00:47:06,000 --> 00:47:08,480
Speaker 2: made a prophecy of doomsday. It didn't occur, And then

847
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:13,440
Speaker 2: they studied what happened afterward, and they saw people simultaneously

848
00:47:14,000 --> 00:47:19,040
Speaker 2: seeing reality and believing it, and then still believing whatever

849
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,480
Speaker 2: Dorothy had said even though it hadn't come to be,

850
00:47:22,239 --> 00:47:25,200
Speaker 2: And they coined a term for people holding these two

851
00:47:25,200 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: disparate thoughts at once, cognitive dissonance. And so what people

852
00:47:28,480 --> 00:47:33,520
Speaker 2: will do to relieve that dissonance is rationalize what happened.

853
00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 2: And so when a leader says, oh, you know what,

854
00:47:36,280 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 2: actually there was an apocalypse, but it was a spiritual one.

855
00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 2: It happened inside, and they go, oh yeah, yeah, okay, great,

856
00:47:41,760 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: oh thank God. Now we can make sense of everything

857
00:47:45,080 --> 00:47:47,680
Speaker 2: and stick around because they don't want to leave. Or

858
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 2: the leader will say, you know, we prayed so hard

859
00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 2: that God held back the violence. So any of these

860
00:47:53,760 --> 00:47:56,680
Speaker 2: excuses are a relief for them, and then they become

861
00:47:56,760 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 2: more loyal to the group.

862
00:47:58,840 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 1: This charm cars all of that is just non transferable

863
00:48:01,960 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: to somebody else, right, who's been the original leader of

864
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:05,600
Speaker 1: this group.

865
00:48:05,880 --> 00:48:08,680
Speaker 2: Correct, because people come to identify with the leader. That's

866
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 2: part of what's happening psychologically in these groups. And you know,

867
00:48:12,760 --> 00:48:14,840
Speaker 2: one of the things I argue in my book is

868
00:48:14,880 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 2: that because of the incredible wealth gap at the moment

869
00:48:18,200 --> 00:48:21,600
Speaker 2: and the experience of being chronically under resourced by most Americans,

870
00:48:21,960 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 2: the American dream itself has become a failure of prophecy.

871
00:48:27,320 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: People have been promised that if you do A B

872
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 2: and C, you're going to have, you know, life, liberty,

873
00:48:33,960 --> 00:48:37,360
Speaker 2: and the pursuit of happiness. People have been promised that

874
00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,879
Speaker 2: every generation will do better than their parents. And none

875
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 2: of that is happening. None of it is coming true.

876
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:46,400
Speaker 2: And as a result, people feel robbed. That's where we

877
00:48:46,440 --> 00:48:51,120
Speaker 2: get these grievance narratives from. And they want someone to blame. Yeah,

878
00:48:51,160 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 2: and it's very easy to blame, you know, the other

879
00:48:54,560 --> 00:48:58,200
Speaker 2: It's very easy to blame a boogeyman that's been manufactured

880
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:07,160
Speaker 2: by someone who wants to manipulate us.

881
00:49:11,440 --> 00:49:14,360
Speaker 1: If you love historical true crime stories, check out the

882
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:17,440
Speaker 1: audio versions of my books The Sinners All Bow, The

883
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,640
Speaker 1: Ghost Club, All That Is Wicked, and American Sherlock and

884
00:49:20,719 --> 00:49:23,959
Speaker 1: don't forget. There are twelve seasons of my historical true

885
00:49:24,000 --> 00:49:28,479
Speaker 1: crime podcast, tenfold More Wicked right here in this podcast feed,

886
00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 1: scroll back and give them a listen if you haven't already.

887
00:49:31,880 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 1: This has been an exactly right production. Our senior producer

888
00:49:35,480 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 1: is Alexis Amrosi. Our associate producer is Christina Chamberlain. This

889
00:49:40,480 --> 00:49:44,560
Speaker 1: episode was mixed by John Bradley. Curtis Heath is our composer.

890
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:49,320
Speaker 1: Artwork by Nick Toga. Executive produced by Georgia Hardstark, Karen

891
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,200
Speaker 1: Kilgarriff and Danielle Kramer. Follow Wicked Words on Instagram and

892
00:49:53,280 --> 00:49:57,239
Speaker 1: Facebook at tenfold more Wicked and on Twitter at tenfold

893
00:49:57,280 --> 00:49:59,440
Speaker 1: More and if you know of a historical crime that

894
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:02,520
Speaker 1: could use some attention from the crew at tenfold more Wicked,

895
00:50:02,680 --> 00:50:06,879
Speaker 1: email us at info at tenfoldmore Wicked dot com. We'll

896
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: also take your suggestions for true crime authors for Wicked

897
00:50:10,239 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 1: Words