1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:02,560 Speaker 1: On a scale from one to ten, How would you 2 00:00:02,640 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: rate our mother daughter relationship at the moment. 3 00:00:05,920 --> 00:00:08,240 Speaker 2: At the moment, I mean, I think we're always a ten. 4 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,440 Speaker 2: You know, I'm always gonna love you no matter what 5 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,320 Speaker 2: I do. Feel like sometimes I want you to think differently, 6 00:00:14,680 --> 00:00:17,520 Speaker 2: maybe act differently, maybe do things more like me. 7 00:00:18,320 --> 00:00:27,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, like you? Wow? Sometimes you give us a ten. 8 00:00:27,640 --> 00:00:29,920 Speaker 2: I think we're always a ten. I think always going 9 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:33,680 Speaker 2: to be no matter what happens, I'm going to be there. 10 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:36,519 Speaker 2: You're going to come back, and it's going to be coming. 11 00:00:36,320 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 1: Back to each other. Yes. If I were to rate 12 00:00:42,320 --> 00:00:45,040 Speaker 1: my relationship with my mother on a scale from one 13 00:00:45,120 --> 00:00:49,160 Speaker 1: to ten, i'd give it an eight. Sometimes it's an eight, 14 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:54,360 Speaker 1: other times it's not. I've heard worse, and that's what 15 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:58,400 Speaker 1: we're getting into this week. I'm Hopewitdard and welcome to 16 00:00:58,480 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 1: boys over a space where we're learning and unlearning all 17 00:01:02,040 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: the myths we're taught about love and relationships. If you've 18 00:01:16,400 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 1: been to any amount of therapy, I'm sure you're aware 19 00:01:20,319 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: that your relationship with your family has a lot to 20 00:01:23,720 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 1: do with all the other relationships in your life, platonic 21 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 1: or romantic, And if you're having issues in those relationships, 22 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: you might have to go all the way back to 23 00:01:34,920 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: the beginning to figure out what's wrong. Today's guest, my 24 00:01:39,680 --> 00:01:43,760 Speaker 1: friend Charlene Kay, is untangling all of that in a 25 00:01:43,760 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: one woman show. She's currently touring, Tiger Daughter or How 26 00:01:48,000 --> 00:01:52,640 Speaker 1: I Brought My Immigrant Mother Ultimate Shame. Charlene is a 27 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,800 Speaker 1: total badass. In addition to being a comedian and actor, 28 00:01:57,120 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: she's a musician who's been in gender flipped cover band 29 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,600 Speaker 1: with iconic names such as Guns and Hoses and Lavy Ahead. 30 00:02:06,160 --> 00:02:08,799 Speaker 1: You know, I love someone who's using their many talents 31 00:02:08,800 --> 00:02:12,160 Speaker 1: to unpack their upbringing and the way it's rippled through 32 00:02:12,160 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: their lives. So, in addition to getting into her complicated 33 00:02:16,360 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: relationship with her mom that her show hinges on, I 34 00:02:20,400 --> 00:02:22,720 Speaker 1: knew I had to talk to her about her work 35 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 1: and how it impacts her life. I want to talk 36 00:02:27,919 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: to you about your work as an artist a little. 37 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: I feel like you bring so many elements together, comedy, acting, 38 00:02:33,680 --> 00:02:36,840 Speaker 1: visual art, music, being a performer. Do you think that 39 00:02:37,000 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 1: helps or hurts your love life? 40 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:42,520 Speaker 3: Well, I'm at a point now where I am experiencing 41 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:44,400 Speaker 3: a lot of momentum in my career, which I'm really 42 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:47,440 Speaker 3: grateful for and I'm also noticing that my life hasn't 43 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,280 Speaker 3: changed that much. If anything, It's made me understand that 44 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,360 Speaker 3: no matter how much success I get, the thing that 45 00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: is the most important to me are my relationships in 46 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 3: my community. And that's another reason that I'm grateful that 47 00:02:58,639 --> 00:03:02,280 Speaker 3: I've experienced success later in life, later meeting like in 48 00:03:02,280 --> 00:03:04,919 Speaker 3: my late thirties, because I understand what it's like to 49 00:03:04,960 --> 00:03:07,560 Speaker 3: feel really lonely, and I understand what it's like to 50 00:03:07,560 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 3: feel really burned out. And like I've I spent all 51 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,360 Speaker 3: of my twenties touring. I was in relationships for some 52 00:03:12,400 --> 00:03:13,880 Speaker 3: of that time, and I was out of relationships some 53 00:03:13,960 --> 00:03:16,360 Speaker 3: of that time. And what I really want is to 54 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:17,839 Speaker 3: have it all. 55 00:03:18,080 --> 00:03:19,519 Speaker 4: And I think, yeah, I can have it all. 56 00:03:20,840 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: What is it all though? I guess like success in 57 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,799 Speaker 1: career and in love and in friendship, and I think 58 00:03:26,800 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: that's very doable. 59 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 3: Yeah, friendship is so important to me, and in the 60 00:03:30,919 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 3: years that I've been single, I've really learned to have 61 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,880 Speaker 3: it be a core part of my happiness, my stability. 62 00:03:39,040 --> 00:03:41,680 Speaker 3: I think friendship is very romantic. I love calling people 63 00:03:41,760 --> 00:03:42,800 Speaker 3: up and just being like, do you want to watch 64 00:03:42,800 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 3: a show or something like that. My friends are my family, 65 00:03:45,520 --> 00:03:47,680 Speaker 3: and I love that about being queer too. It feels 66 00:03:47,680 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 3: like we really rely on each other as chosen family. 67 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 3: It's just a bunch of like wayward misfits who I 68 00:03:53,840 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 3: feel like we walk the paths together and that's helped 69 00:03:56,560 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 3: me also like decenter romance totally. But it really is 70 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:02,880 Speaker 3: that thing of like it takes twenty years to be 71 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 3: an overnight success because I have been doing this since 72 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,880 Speaker 3: I was seventeen, and I started playing open mics when 73 00:04:08,880 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 3: I was in high school, played all every show that 74 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,160 Speaker 3: I could. I went to school at University of Michigan, 75 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 3: and Arbor decided I wanted to move to New York 76 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:18,000 Speaker 3: to become a waitress and think. 77 00:04:17,800 --> 00:04:18,600 Speaker 4: About my feelings. 78 00:04:19,320 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 3: I went through so many milestones where I was like, 79 00:04:22,040 --> 00:04:24,359 Speaker 3: I should be happy, but I want more and I 80 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 3: feel like even though I'm getting success in this way, 81 00:04:27,920 --> 00:04:29,640 Speaker 3: it's not as much as this other person's getting. 82 00:04:30,880 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 1: The comparison kills me. 83 00:04:32,560 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, it's fine, And I think that that happens when 84 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:39,880 Speaker 3: you don't have that sense of like, well, I'm proud 85 00:04:39,920 --> 00:04:41,840 Speaker 3: of what I did and I know that I. 86 00:04:41,800 --> 00:04:42,440 Speaker 4: Did my best. 87 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 1: Yeah. 88 00:04:43,680 --> 00:04:45,440 Speaker 3: I think in my twenties I put so much pressure 89 00:04:45,440 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: on myself to be this perfect version of myself and 90 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:51,719 Speaker 3: have a perfect career, and when you think about it 91 00:04:51,720 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 3: in that way, you're never going to hit that ideal. 92 00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: It's also interesting because I feel like you said, like, 93 00:04:57,080 --> 00:04:58,880 Speaker 1: in the last couple of years, you've found a lot 94 00:04:58,920 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 1: of success. I'm wondering if you think sort of the 95 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: release of perfection is connected to that finding success, Like 96 00:05:06,800 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: do you feel like that resonates at all. 97 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 3: On There's like I feel like being raised in an 98 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 3: Asian household and also just naturally feeling like I want 99 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 3: to be the best at everything I do creates a 100 00:05:20,040 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 3: sense of pressure that I put on everything, and that 101 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:26,800 Speaker 3: includes relationships, right, wanting to heal perfectly. 102 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 4: Wanting to like, wanting. 103 00:05:28,279 --> 00:05:31,600 Speaker 3: To date perfectly, you know, perfectly. 104 00:05:31,320 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 5: Yea. 105 00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,920 Speaker 3: I bought a book called The Perfectionist's Guide to Losing Control, 106 00:05:36,160 --> 00:05:37,520 Speaker 3: and in my mind, I was like, so how can 107 00:05:37,600 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 3: I how can I lose control perfectly? 108 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 1: Yeah? 109 00:05:41,640 --> 00:05:45,080 Speaker 3: But it's real, like I want I care about other 110 00:05:45,080 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 3: people so much and I'm an EmPATH, and I also like, 111 00:05:48,480 --> 00:05:50,080 Speaker 3: I think that it's so easy for me to get 112 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:52,200 Speaker 3: caught up in the like am I doing this right? 113 00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:53,080 Speaker 4: Am I good enough? 114 00:05:53,760 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 3: Because I experienced shame so much as a kid, and 115 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 3: I think that a lot of that is a shame 116 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 3: that I put on myself for like impossible standards. 117 00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:04,480 Speaker 1: You said that you're kind of on this journey of 118 00:06:04,600 --> 00:06:09,720 Speaker 1: untangling your attachment wombs that might have formed during childhood's 119 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:19,960 Speaker 1: like chaotic childhood, name like early days, early days. But 120 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: maybe it leads you to choose like some unavailable people. Yes, 121 00:06:23,720 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: can you tell me like a little bit about that. 122 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 3: I feel like I'm only now unpacking why it has 123 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,520 Speaker 3: been so difficult for me to be in a steady 124 00:06:33,560 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 3: relationship because I think that in the past, I've been 125 00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 3: raised by a mother who always wanted me to center her. Yeah, 126 00:06:40,920 --> 00:06:46,120 Speaker 3: and so our romantic relationships echo are primary relationship right totally, 127 00:06:46,160 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: And so I'm learning so much about how it's so 128 00:06:50,360 --> 00:06:52,800 Speaker 3: easy for me to make myself small and like put 129 00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 3: myself over here and just be like whatever you want, 130 00:06:54,680 --> 00:06:57,360 Speaker 3: whatever you want, And it leads to this really unhealthy 131 00:06:57,720 --> 00:07:03,520 Speaker 3: codependent in meshing, which which ironically I have a tendency 132 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:06,440 Speaker 3: to escalate because that is the dynamic that I know, 133 00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,520 Speaker 3: and I feel that I have felt in the past 134 00:07:09,560 --> 00:07:13,840 Speaker 3: that love means not having boundaries, and completely. 135 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:15,280 Speaker 1: There were no boundaries between me and my mother. 136 00:07:15,360 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, I want to hear all about that. 137 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 1: I'm wondering because you said your dad passed away yeah, fifteen, Yeah, 138 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: so you immediately kind of became your mom's like primary caregiver. 139 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: Would you say or no? 140 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:28,880 Speaker 3: My sister was the golden child that I used the 141 00:07:28,880 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 3: scapegoat because I was the artist, And a big part 142 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 3: of my show is how she really wanted to be 143 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 3: a musician. 144 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:35,760 Speaker 1: Your sister. 145 00:07:35,920 --> 00:07:41,600 Speaker 3: No, no, No, my mom, my mom. She's a flamboyant, outrageous character, 146 00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:46,120 Speaker 3: and the show is like exploring all the like crazy 147 00:07:46,160 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 3: things that have happened in our relationship. But it has 148 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 3: a very real core of like sometimes mothers and daughters 149 00:07:52,720 --> 00:07:54,640 Speaker 3: can be competitive with one another, and it's something that's 150 00:07:54,640 --> 00:07:56,800 Speaker 3: like very taboo to talk about in Asian culture because 151 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:01,600 Speaker 3: we are supposed to completely honor our parents and there's 152 00:08:01,600 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: like such a sense of filial. 153 00:08:03,120 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 4: Piety around that. 154 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 3: So I feel like when I was growing up, what 155 00:08:07,800 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: was modeled for me was that I always have to 156 00:08:10,960 --> 00:08:14,360 Speaker 3: please her first, and if we ever fought, then there's 157 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,360 Speaker 3: no room for my feelings. 158 00:08:16,360 --> 00:08:18,400 Speaker 4: There's no air at all. 159 00:08:18,720 --> 00:08:20,560 Speaker 3: It was always like she was right and I have 160 00:08:20,640 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 3: to change myself if I have a problem with that. 161 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 3: So in my romantic relationships, I've always made myself smaller 162 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 3: because I wanted to make the other person more comfortable. 163 00:08:29,560 --> 00:08:31,440 Speaker 1: I want to talk to you though you your mom 164 00:08:31,480 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: inspired your show, Yeah, basically, and it's called Tiger Daughter. 165 00:08:34,640 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 1: Tell me about that relationship. 166 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,920 Speaker 3: The irony is that the tiger mother trope doesn't exactly 167 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:41,840 Speaker 3: apply to my mother. And it's a little bit of 168 00:08:41,840 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 3: a bait and switch because when you come see the show, 169 00:08:44,679 --> 00:08:46,959 Speaker 3: I think, if you don't know anything else, you might 170 00:08:47,000 --> 00:08:50,240 Speaker 3: think that it's just another tale of a really intense 171 00:08:50,280 --> 00:08:52,560 Speaker 3: mom who wanted her kids to get into Harvard. But 172 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:55,599 Speaker 3: what you'll find is that it's so much more complicated 173 00:08:55,640 --> 00:08:58,000 Speaker 3: than that, because there's this whole element of, like, she 174 00:08:58,040 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 3: also wanted to be a star. So you have the 175 00:09:00,800 --> 00:09:03,600 Speaker 3: tropes that you might recognize, just in a way that 176 00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 3: you might not expect. 177 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 1: I want to know how you know she wanted to 178 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: be a star. Has she admitted that. 179 00:09:08,280 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 3: I'll tell you because when she was fourteen, she went 180 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,680 Speaker 3: downtown in Singapore, where she grew up, to this nationwide 181 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: televised competition called Talent Time. This thing was like Singapore 182 00:09:21,880 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 3: America's got talent it had. The person who won would 183 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,120 Speaker 3: get hooked up with an agent, a manager in a 184 00:09:28,120 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: fat check, and it would be on the fast track 185 00:09:29,559 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 3: to fame. 186 00:09:29,960 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 5: Wow. 187 00:09:30,320 --> 00:09:31,320 Speaker 4: The first year my mother. 188 00:09:31,200 --> 00:09:34,559 Speaker 3: Went, she went on television saying, Joni Mitchell's both sides now. 189 00:09:35,120 --> 00:09:36,199 Speaker 1: So y'all are similar? 190 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,280 Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yeah, like is exactly like that way? 191 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,439 Speaker 1: Yeah wow. And I'm also just thinking about, like, at 192 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,199 Speaker 1: that time, you have to have had so that seed 193 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,600 Speaker 1: in you. She'd be like, I'm gonna go tenacious. 194 00:09:49,880 --> 00:09:51,960 Speaker 3: And it's one of the things that I adore about 195 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,320 Speaker 3: her and I see in myself too. But yeah, Like, 196 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,760 Speaker 3: she went back two more years after that. The first 197 00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:59,160 Speaker 3: year she went, she got third place, the second year 198 00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,839 Speaker 3: she got runner up. In the third year she got 199 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,120 Speaker 3: runner up again. Devastating. And so my sister and I 200 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:06,840 Speaker 3: are always like, what would have happened to mom if 201 00:10:06,840 --> 00:10:08,640 Speaker 3: she won that competition, Like maybe she. 202 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:09,960 Speaker 4: Would be a huge star. 203 00:10:10,160 --> 00:10:12,679 Speaker 3: But because she just grew up in such different circumstances, 204 00:10:13,360 --> 00:10:16,520 Speaker 3: it probably stings to see her daughter become the thing 205 00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:19,800 Speaker 3: that she always dreamed of being, and to bring us 206 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:23,720 Speaker 3: to America with all these privileges and resources, only for 207 00:10:23,800 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: me to become the thing that she wanted to be. 208 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:31,680 Speaker 1: Have you all unpacked that I have. I have told 209 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 1: her that. 210 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, I sadly, I totally get that. 211 00:10:38,640 --> 00:10:42,240 Speaker 1: So you don't see her as like the stereotypical tiger mother, No, 212 00:10:42,320 --> 00:10:45,760 Speaker 1: but you call yourself a tiger daughter, so maybe you 213 00:10:45,840 --> 00:10:48,800 Speaker 1: see her also as kind of a tiger daughter. 214 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 3: Yes, that she's also a tiger daughter because she Part 215 00:10:52,400 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 3: of why I think I grind her gears so much 216 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:56,160 Speaker 3: is because I am to her what she was to 217 00:10:56,200 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 3: her own mother. She was one of eight children. She 218 00:10:59,880 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 3: was always the rebel. She was always the one who 219 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:04,040 Speaker 3: wanted to get out of Singapore. She wanted she was 220 00:11:04,080 --> 00:11:07,080 Speaker 3: the one who was interested in the arts. Yeah she 221 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 3: fucking did. 222 00:11:07,760 --> 00:11:08,360 Speaker 1: Wow. 223 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 4: But her mother, her. 224 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:12,000 Speaker 3: Mother grew up in poverty and worked as a maid 225 00:11:12,040 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 3: for a wealthier British family because Singapore wasn't a country 226 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 3: yet but we're. 227 00:11:14,920 --> 00:11:16,000 Speaker 4: Still a colony of Britain. 228 00:11:16,120 --> 00:11:16,440 Speaker 1: Wow. 229 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:19,360 Speaker 3: And so you know, her mom thought that she gave 230 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:20,439 Speaker 3: her everything too. 231 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: And these things do just like happen, and happened like 232 00:11:23,600 --> 00:11:25,840 Speaker 1: the script kind of gets passed down, do you know 233 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: what I mean? But I kind of want to know, 234 00:11:28,080 --> 00:11:32,080 Speaker 1: like when you felt that first piece of competition with 235 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:32,559 Speaker 1: your mom. 236 00:11:33,200 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 4: Oh easy. 237 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,560 Speaker 3: It was when she asked me to record an entire 238 00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 3: album of hers where she covered my song. 239 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 1: No Way And how did that make you feel? Were 240 00:11:42,640 --> 00:11:46,320 Speaker 1: you like absolutely not? Or it was actually did you 241 00:11:46,360 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: do it? 242 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 4: How you do experience? 243 00:11:47,800 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: Because we haven't connected on much, and to be able 244 00:11:50,920 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 3: to be in the studio making music together was actually 245 00:11:53,320 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 3: really fun. 246 00:11:53,840 --> 00:11:54,440 Speaker 4: Okay, amazing. 247 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:55,840 Speaker 3: She came to New York. I heard all my New 248 00:11:55,920 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 3: York musician friends like. I put her in the little 249 00:11:57,720 --> 00:12:01,120 Speaker 3: vocal booth. I had to auditune every single thing she's saying. Yeah, yeah, 250 00:12:01,160 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 3: we say a combination of my songs, Christian songs and 251 00:12:05,120 --> 00:12:09,440 Speaker 3: Michael Jackson's Heel the World four Key Changes and I 252 00:12:09,480 --> 00:12:11,440 Speaker 3: have on bandkit. 253 00:12:11,600 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: I have to listen to it. You can. 254 00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 5: Some day I'm gonna rise up some day when I 255 00:12:20,000 --> 00:12:23,959 Speaker 5: make my mind up, nothing but good. It's gonna come 256 00:12:24,120 --> 00:12:28,880 Speaker 5: from my love, not until paid mind. 257 00:12:29,440 --> 00:12:37,199 Speaker 6: Dude, tell you that some day I'm gonna wristle some 258 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:40,240 Speaker 6: day when I make my mind up. 259 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 5: Nothing but good. It's gonna come from my love, not 260 00:12:44,960 --> 00:12:48,320 Speaker 5: until love paid mine. 261 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:52,840 Speaker 1: I feel like competition and collaboration are always so close 262 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 1: to each other because when you're competitive with someone, I 263 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:57,959 Speaker 1: always take it as a sign you want to be 264 00:12:58,000 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 1: closer to them, you want to like with them, you 265 00:13:01,200 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 1: are inspired by them. Maybe yeah, and sounds like she's 266 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,440 Speaker 1: inspired by you, but maybe it doesn't come out. It's complicated. 267 00:13:09,679 --> 00:13:13,200 Speaker 3: I know that she genuinely likes those songs, yeah, but 268 00:13:13,240 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 3: it's also like she wants that kind of life. She 269 00:13:17,000 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 3: wants she wants my success, like she's never admitted No, never, 270 00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:23,079 Speaker 3: she never will. I do know though, that you all 271 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:25,800 Speaker 3: were in therapy together, Yes, have there been any like 272 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:29,040 Speaker 3: big epiphanies? Has she admitted anything to you where you 273 00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,960 Speaker 3: were just like, she's just rock solid the dynamic I 274 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 3: mentioned before, The work has primarily come from me trying 275 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 3: to give her compassion based on. 276 00:13:37,920 --> 00:13:39,439 Speaker 4: What I know about her childhood. 277 00:13:39,679 --> 00:13:42,239 Speaker 1: Right, And you know that's very. 278 00:13:42,000 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 3: Emotionally impaired, which is I've been fortunate enough to have 279 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:49,880 Speaker 3: the tools of self actualization, education and therapy, and I've 280 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,520 Speaker 3: had the privilege of growing up in America with resources 281 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:54,920 Speaker 3: like I've always had a roof over my head. I 282 00:13:54,920 --> 00:13:58,319 Speaker 3: feel very fortunate to have always been financially stable. So 283 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: but at the same time, like it doesn't excuse a 284 00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:04,200 Speaker 3: lot of her behavior totally. So it's it's that constant 285 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,000 Speaker 3: tiptoe of like making sure that I'm standing up for 286 00:14:07,040 --> 00:14:10,120 Speaker 3: myself and also giving her compassion for where she's at. 287 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,440 Speaker 1: The chaos of your family and the chaos of your mom. 288 00:14:30,240 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: Was there a time where you had to just be like, 289 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 1: I can't do this anymore, Like you had to step 290 00:14:35,000 --> 00:14:37,880 Speaker 1: away completely? Were you all not on speaking terms ever? 291 00:14:38,320 --> 00:14:38,760 Speaker 4: Yeah? 292 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,800 Speaker 1: What sort of set that off? 293 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 3: That happens a lot. Actually, they're honestly. 294 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:45,520 Speaker 1: Saying, do you ever block your mom? 295 00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 5: Oh? 296 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:48,440 Speaker 1: No, I blocked my mom. Yeah. I blocked her this 297 00:14:48,480 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: weekend because I told her I went to a sex 298 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:51,240 Speaker 1: party and she got really mad at me, and I 299 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I was like, because we've talked about 300 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 1: sex my whole life, and okay, girl, I need to 301 00:14:58,560 --> 00:15:01,280 Speaker 1: do it one day. But I had to block her 302 00:15:01,320 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 1: for five minutes because I know what she'll do. She'll 303 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,360 Speaker 1: start blowing me up with text messages that are just 304 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: like ribbing me to shreds, and so I'll block her 305 00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: for five minutes so that I don't get any of 306 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,240 Speaker 1: the text messages because I'm like, I know what's gonna happen, 307 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,440 Speaker 1: and she's gonna go off for five minutes and then 308 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,560 Speaker 1: I'm gonna call her back and we're gonna be fine. 309 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: So I blocked my mom honestly, regularly, she's not blocked 310 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:22,400 Speaker 1: on my son. 311 00:15:22,800 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 3: You talk about sex, but she's upset that you went 312 00:15:24,680 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 3: to a sex party. 313 00:15:25,480 --> 00:15:28,880 Speaker 1: It's we've had our relationship has developed because when she 314 00:15:28,920 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: went through a divorce when I was younger, I was 315 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:36,120 Speaker 1: her honestly caregiver, therapist, whatever, so there were no boundaries there. 316 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,160 Speaker 1: But ever since she's found like a bit more stability, 317 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:42,520 Speaker 1: she's like reverted to a more sort of traditional mom 318 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:45,280 Speaker 1: with boundaries. So it's like an interesting thing because we've 319 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:47,720 Speaker 1: talked about sex my whole life and she's pretty sex positive, 320 00:15:48,080 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: but I think sex party specifically was a bit out 321 00:15:51,360 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: of her wheelhouse. 322 00:15:52,160 --> 00:15:55,040 Speaker 3: Wait wait, wait Christian, She's still Christian. 323 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:58,680 Speaker 1: Interesting because she lives in Tennessee, so Christian nationalism is 324 00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:59,120 Speaker 1: in the water. 325 00:15:59,280 --> 00:15:59,480 Speaker 6: Yeah. 326 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, Like she doesn't really go to church, but she 327 00:16:02,120 --> 00:16:06,200 Speaker 1: still identifies with the values I think because everyone around 328 00:16:06,200 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: her does, you know what I mean. Yeah, But at 329 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:12,240 Speaker 1: the same time, she's very open minded, so she's filled 330 00:16:12,240 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: with contradictions. My mom too. 331 00:16:14,680 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 3: My mom is so sexual, she will get nude portraits 332 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 3: of herself commissioned. I show them in the show. 333 00:16:19,720 --> 00:16:24,080 Speaker 1: Hold on, yeah, your mom had you wear a promise ring. Yeah, 334 00:16:24,120 --> 00:16:28,240 Speaker 1: but we'll get nude portraits made of herself. Tell me 335 00:16:28,320 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 1: about this. 336 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 3: She's walking talking paradox like she loves herself, she loves 337 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 3: her own body. She makes me photoshop her face into 338 00:16:37,160 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 3: pictures of other people's bodies. Chinese empresses, supermodels, pop stars 339 00:16:41,640 --> 00:16:43,840 Speaker 3: all the time, all the time, onto their body. 340 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,680 Speaker 1: Yes, what is like? What's the drawl for her? 341 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 3: I think that she wants to see herself in greatness? Right, 342 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:54,640 Speaker 3: And I think that like it probably comes from this 343 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 3: like scarcy mindset in poverty too, because she was never 344 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,720 Speaker 3: able to imagine that she could have any other life 345 00:17:00,080 --> 00:17:02,520 Speaker 3: besides the kind here here I am like explaining excusing 346 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:04,879 Speaker 3: it again, but like still, it's not excusing. 347 00:17:04,960 --> 00:17:06,720 Speaker 1: I do think it's understand it's it's. 348 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:08,800 Speaker 3: Fascinating to me, Like I can't even tell you how No, 349 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 3: I mean, I've spent psychoanalyzing this woman. 350 00:17:11,200 --> 00:17:12,679 Speaker 1: Contradiction is crazy to me. 351 00:17:12,920 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 3: But but it's crazy because like I am in a 352 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,439 Speaker 3: band whose tagline is welcome to the jungle, and I 353 00:17:18,480 --> 00:17:21,520 Speaker 3: show my ass on stage all the time, and she 354 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,000 Speaker 3: can't deal with it if I had like a cigarette 355 00:17:25,000 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 3: in my mouth for a promo photo and she goes, 356 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 3: what is the cigarette? Like, Mom, it's a rolled up 357 00:17:29,680 --> 00:17:30,520 Speaker 3: piece of printer of paper. 358 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:31,000 Speaker 4: Calmed down. 359 00:17:31,640 --> 00:17:34,280 Speaker 3: I've never smoked, I don't drink. I am a sober bitch. 360 00:17:34,359 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 5: Yeah. 361 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:38,399 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's making sense to me though her anger is 362 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: based in want. It's like if she's bringing home these 363 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:44,919 Speaker 1: nude portraits and everything, and then she sees you up 364 00:17:44,960 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 1: there and then the whole like Singapore's got talent of 365 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:50,679 Speaker 1: it all. Like it makes so much sense to me. 366 00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:53,760 Speaker 1: And what a difficult thing to admit to your daughter. 367 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 1: You know, I've been asking you, like has she ever 368 00:17:57,240 --> 00:17:59,960 Speaker 1: admitted it? But like, oh, it's so hard to admit 369 00:18:00,000 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: it's something to someone when you can't really admit it 370 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:02,800 Speaker 1: to yourself. 371 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 4: Yeah. 372 00:18:03,280 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: You know, I'm curious if our moms will ever get there. Yeah, 373 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:08,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, because my mom is in a similar boat. 374 00:18:09,520 --> 00:18:10,280 Speaker 4: They should hang out. 375 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: Honestly, they would be obsessed with each other. Like, honestly, 376 00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: I'm like. 377 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,160 Speaker 4: They're not like so jealous of each other. 378 00:18:18,320 --> 00:18:23,240 Speaker 1: Yeah right, no, because for me, my mom and I 379 00:18:23,359 --> 00:18:27,760 Speaker 1: were either fighting or we're laughing, having a blast, yeah, 380 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: or we're crying, Like we're just like so intense all 381 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: the time. And I love her and I hate her, 382 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:35,040 Speaker 1: but I know that, like, there are these moments that 383 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,800 Speaker 1: I treasure with her, and I love having the good 384 00:18:37,880 --> 00:18:38,280 Speaker 1: with the bad. 385 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,520 Speaker 3: It's never safe for me to be myself. It was 386 00:18:40,560 --> 00:18:46,920 Speaker 3: never safe for me to be the like unstitched, unpleasant 387 00:18:47,200 --> 00:18:52,119 Speaker 3: self because that was punished. I remember recently she was 388 00:18:52,119 --> 00:18:53,920 Speaker 3: asking about one of my ex boyfriends and she was like, 389 00:18:53,960 --> 00:18:55,680 Speaker 3: what do you call this person? And I said, I 390 00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 3: don't think that's helpful. And then for the rest of 391 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,120 Speaker 3: the dinner, I think I was perfectly pleased, but there 392 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,200 Speaker 3: was something that I think she felt guilty about bringing 393 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 3: something up that could have upset me. And then after 394 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:11,880 Speaker 3: that she was like she was upset at me, and 395 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:14,120 Speaker 3: you know, it was her way of being like, well, 396 00:19:14,119 --> 00:19:16,520 Speaker 3: this isn't my fault. It's your fault for being upset. 397 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:17,520 Speaker 4: You ruined this man. 398 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:21,440 Speaker 3: She said, you ruined it perfectly nice dinner. 399 00:19:21,680 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 1: Ah, And you're like why because I said, don't ask 400 00:19:23,800 --> 00:19:25,760 Speaker 1: me about my ex boyfriend. Yeah. 401 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:29,399 Speaker 3: And so I feel like that has translated into my 402 00:19:29,440 --> 00:19:33,920 Speaker 3: relationships where I have developed an anxious attachment style because 403 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:34,960 Speaker 3: I'm constantly. 404 00:19:34,520 --> 00:19:35,720 Speaker 4: Worried that I said the wrong thing. 405 00:19:35,760 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 3: And like, if I'm dating someone and they don't respond, 406 00:19:38,680 --> 00:19:42,840 Speaker 3: even if the connection is completely stable, I'll be like. 407 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,959 Speaker 1: Oh sorry, I said the wrong thing. Like and it's fine, 408 00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: It's totally fine, so fine, everything's so fine. Stakes are 409 00:19:50,680 --> 00:19:53,719 Speaker 1: so low. Yeah, Like, what was your coping mechanism for 410 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: it all? Was it art? Has it always been creating? 411 00:19:56,680 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 3: I don't think I acknowledged how deep I believe my 412 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:04,720 Speaker 3: belief system was influenced by our relationship until very recently. 413 00:20:05,040 --> 00:20:07,880 Speaker 1: How recent I would say, like in the past year. Wow, 414 00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:10,040 Speaker 1: how old were you when you started therapy? 415 00:20:10,840 --> 00:20:16,040 Speaker 3: I was twenty six Okay, yeah, so. 416 00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,280 Speaker 4: It's been about twelve years. I would say that only in. 417 00:20:19,240 --> 00:20:22,160 Speaker 3: The past year have I started to make some real breakthroughs. 418 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 3: And it sucks that it takes so long. 419 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:24,560 Speaker 1: Now. 420 00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:27,720 Speaker 3: There's sometimes where my therapist is just like if I'm 421 00:20:27,840 --> 00:20:29,960 Speaker 3: coming to it myself, she goes, uh huh uh huh. 422 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:31,440 Speaker 3: I'm like, well, why didn't you just tell me that 423 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:32,120 Speaker 3: a year ago? 424 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:34,560 Speaker 4: I hated, We're gonna save so much time. 425 00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:37,200 Speaker 3: Now, But she's she's supposed to let you figure it 426 00:20:37,200 --> 00:20:38,720 Speaker 3: out on your own. That's what makes her a good therapist. 427 00:20:38,800 --> 00:20:40,400 Speaker 1: But doesn't it feel so good to say it? 428 00:20:40,760 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 4: Yeah? When I hear myself say that, I go, yeah. 429 00:20:44,119 --> 00:20:46,440 Speaker 1: So, what are kind of some new steps that you're 430 00:20:46,480 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: taking now that you can kind of like understand the 431 00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 1: impact of this relationship with your mom. 432 00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:58,120 Speaker 3: I feel like I'm really at an important critical juncture 433 00:20:58,680 --> 00:20:59,080 Speaker 3: right now. 434 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,040 Speaker 4: We understand how. 435 00:21:02,880 --> 00:21:07,240 Speaker 3: Romance doesn't have to be this all consuming thing for me. 436 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,200 Speaker 3: And I've been single for about seven years because since 437 00:21:11,240 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 3: my last song relationship, I have been terrified of being 438 00:21:15,000 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 3: subsumed by a romance because in the past, that is 439 00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 3: what I equated with love, to be completely owned and 440 00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:21,880 Speaker 3: to be like. 441 00:21:21,840 --> 00:21:23,120 Speaker 4: Awash in it all the time. 442 00:21:23,160 --> 00:21:25,119 Speaker 3: And it's just not sustainable for me because I'm a 443 00:21:25,119 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 3: creative person. I need to be close to my art, 444 00:21:27,560 --> 00:21:29,199 Speaker 3: I need to be performing, and need to be like 445 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:32,440 Speaker 3: with myself and in my solitude, and I just never 446 00:21:32,520 --> 00:21:35,280 Speaker 3: knew what that balance looked like. So I would lose 447 00:21:35,320 --> 00:21:39,320 Speaker 3: myself in these relationships and give everything to the other 448 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:42,880 Speaker 3: person because all I knew was boundaryless love, where I 449 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 3: was rewarded for fixing or dropping my boundary to please 450 00:21:47,480 --> 00:21:51,359 Speaker 3: my mother. And so now I'm like actually starting to 451 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 3: date someone that has healthy boundaries and who I know 452 00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 3: is thinking about me, even though we're not texting like 453 00:21:57,560 --> 00:22:00,760 Speaker 3: all the time, and it doesn't feel like it's it 454 00:22:01,080 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 3: feels a lot healthier and. 455 00:22:03,119 --> 00:22:06,280 Speaker 1: You're not like I've never scared. 456 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:07,640 Speaker 3: I feel like. 457 00:22:07,600 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: In those intense moments because I so resonate with you 458 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: when you said, what did you say? 459 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:13,040 Speaker 4: Subsumes? 460 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:16,160 Speaker 1: Subsumed that word like so stuck with me because I'm 461 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:19,520 Speaker 1: like totally completely, it's like so all consuming. I'm always 462 00:22:19,560 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 1: so scared to lose it because it has to be constant, 463 00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 1: yes exactly, and with the space, you can just let 464 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: yourself think about other things. 465 00:22:28,600 --> 00:22:30,520 Speaker 3: And that's the thing about being raised by a mother 466 00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:33,240 Speaker 3: like this is that, like it's you come to know 467 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,399 Speaker 3: that love and safety can be snatched away at any moments. 468 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,840 Speaker 3: You're constantly afraid that if you don't engage constantly then 469 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 3: you'll lose somebody or but you end up losing yourself, right, Oh, and. 470 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,600 Speaker 1: We've got to hold on to ourselves. But that's not 471 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 1: always taught. 472 00:22:46,840 --> 00:22:48,280 Speaker 4: No, no, no. 473 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:49,040 Speaker 1: How did y'all meet? 474 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 3: We actually met a few years ago on Hinge, but 475 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 3: it didn't work out back then because I was not. 476 00:22:57,560 --> 00:22:59,720 Speaker 1: Ready Okay, so you reconnect and what happens. 477 00:23:00,440 --> 00:23:02,440 Speaker 3: So Like back then, I feel like I was still 478 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,480 Speaker 3: going through a lot of my attachment issues and I 479 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 3: felt like I really self sabotaged. It was also my 480 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:12,119 Speaker 3: first queer relationship. He's a trans guy, and so I 481 00:23:12,240 --> 00:23:15,240 Speaker 3: just didn't have like context for what I was getting 482 00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:17,440 Speaker 3: into because I had never dated anyone who wasn't assist 483 00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 3: dude totally, and so brought up all these questions about 484 00:23:21,400 --> 00:23:23,159 Speaker 3: what my sexuality was. And I think that I just 485 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,680 Speaker 3: needed to like take a beat to reorient myself and 486 00:23:25,720 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 3: to like work on myself. So you know, we're reconnecting 487 00:23:30,040 --> 00:23:33,479 Speaker 3: and it's beautiful. And also I am recognizing how fucking 488 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 3: secure of. 489 00:23:34,560 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 4: A man he is. 490 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:39,119 Speaker 3: And like the other day we were talking about past 491 00:23:39,160 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 3: relationships and I go, yeah, when I ended my last 492 00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 3: like long term relationship, I felt so much guilt and 493 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,359 Speaker 3: shame and he was talking about another relationship because he goes, oh, 494 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:48,920 Speaker 3: I didn't feel that. 495 00:23:49,119 --> 00:23:54,400 Speaker 1: Uh. I was like you did, security, I'm sorry how 496 00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: you feel. 497 00:23:55,040 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 3: I know, And he's on his journey now I'm on 498 00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:01,199 Speaker 3: my journey. We're taking it slow. It's fine, right, But 499 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:02,960 Speaker 3: I would never sit back. I'd be like, oh my god, 500 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:04,800 Speaker 3: it looks so hot too. Even if I didn't. 501 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 4: Feel like I wanted to do that, I'm always so 502 00:24:06,760 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 4: I'm learning. 503 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 3: So I'm sweating right now just talking about it, like 504 00:24:09,680 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 3: we have boundaries. 505 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 1: It's amazing, Like I'm like speaking truth. 506 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 4: It's sexy. 507 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 3: It's like it's teaching me so much about the way 508 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,119 Speaker 3: that I have people please right and the way that 509 00:24:20,200 --> 00:24:22,440 Speaker 3: I want to make everyone feel good, even if it's 510 00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:23,680 Speaker 3: not authentic totally. 511 00:24:40,119 --> 00:24:42,720 Speaker 1: What's one thing you've really had to unlearn about love? 512 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:47,240 Speaker 3: I would say, don't force yourself to make it look 513 00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:50,880 Speaker 3: like any one thing, because if you put pressure on something, 514 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 3: you're sort of adding control, and I think that you 515 00:24:55,400 --> 00:24:59,439 Speaker 3: might be subconsciously manipulating an outcome. My mother to bring 516 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 3: this back to her loves gardening, and this tree that 517 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,159 Speaker 3: she just got is a persimon tree, which apparently takes 518 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 3: three years to sprout. Wow, you can't manipulate nature and 519 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:15,080 Speaker 3: something is just going to take as long as it's 520 00:25:15,080 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 3: going to take. And it's frustrating because I'm an impatient person. 521 00:25:19,600 --> 00:25:22,359 Speaker 3: But I think sometimes you just have to relax and 522 00:25:22,440 --> 00:25:25,239 Speaker 3: let things unfold and reveal themselves to you, and you 523 00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,119 Speaker 3: have to be laid back enough to receive it instead 524 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 3: of pushing towards it. Anytime I've done that has been 525 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,760 Speaker 3: the results have been more magical. 526 00:25:33,359 --> 00:25:37,120 Speaker 1: How frequently are you challenging yourself not to do what 527 00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:38,680 Speaker 1: your mom wants you to do? 528 00:25:39,320 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 3: I would say that when my mom are together, I 529 00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:45,440 Speaker 3: become a completely different version of myself. Yeah, and it's 530 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,840 Speaker 3: a much more blank slate. So it's difficult to transition 531 00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 3: in and out of that because, like I said, I 532 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,800 Speaker 3: know that when I am that version of myself, I 533 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:00,080 Speaker 3: am safe because I'm not criticized. And so I'm a 534 00:26:00,200 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 3: place now where we're actually not talking right now, which 535 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 3: is really which is painful. But I also feel that 536 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:09,560 Speaker 3: I need it. I need to reclaim myself. And the 537 00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:12,520 Speaker 3: sometimes the less contact I have with her, the more 538 00:26:12,520 --> 00:26:14,639 Speaker 3: I feel like myself. And that is the that's the 539 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 3: heartbreaking nature of our relation. 540 00:26:17,359 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: That's tough to hear. Like that I think is true 541 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:21,720 Speaker 1: though for a lot of people, but. 542 00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,400 Speaker 4: Damn, and I love her. 543 00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: I love her so much, and that's why it is 544 00:26:25,280 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 3: heartbreaking because I see her so clearly and she will 545 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:28,119 Speaker 3: never see me. 546 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:32,840 Speaker 1: Oh really, stop, Like, how do we get them there? 547 00:26:33,320 --> 00:26:33,760 Speaker 4: We can't. 548 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 3: We have to find that within ourselves, right, Trust me, 549 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:40,440 Speaker 3: I've spent a lifetime getting trying to get my mother 550 00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:40,879 Speaker 3: to love me. 551 00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:42,520 Speaker 4: But the price is too high. 552 00:26:42,680 --> 00:26:44,600 Speaker 1: How does she feel about your show? How does she 553 00:26:44,640 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 1: feel about your art, your performance? 554 00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:48,399 Speaker 3: I think she feels kind of neutral about it, To 555 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 3: be honest, I think she likes the show in the 556 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:54,600 Speaker 3: sense that it's about her, but she doesn't like I 557 00:26:54,640 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 3: don't think that she understands how amaze of like a 558 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,800 Speaker 3: craft it is and it's okay. 559 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:06,280 Speaker 4: The whole crux of the. 560 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:08,400 Speaker 3: Show is do you need to understand someone in order 561 00:27:08,440 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 3: to love them? It's the last thing I say in 562 00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 3: the show. It's the thing that I'm genuinely interested in. 563 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,359 Speaker 3: I'm not asking it to the audience as a leading question. 564 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 3: Is something that I don't know the answer to because 565 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 3: I ask you. I think both ways. I think that 566 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,919 Speaker 3: you kind of do, and I also think that we 567 00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:24,480 Speaker 3: have to show each other grace if we're going to 568 00:27:24,520 --> 00:27:26,440 Speaker 3: exist alongside each other at all. 569 00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I would say yes, if you don't understand someone, 570 00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,200 Speaker 1: can you still love them? If you don't understand someone, 571 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:35,159 Speaker 1: do you know them? You know? 572 00:27:35,240 --> 00:27:39,120 Speaker 3: You also can't hate someone that you don't know, right, 573 00:27:39,680 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 3: Like when you know how where they've come from and 574 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,879 Speaker 3: what they've been through and their vulnerabilities, it's impossible. So 575 00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:49,600 Speaker 3: that's what makes our relationships so difficult because I know 576 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:51,560 Speaker 3: all that, and yet there's all this there's all of 577 00:27:51,560 --> 00:27:52,240 Speaker 3: this cruelty. 578 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,159 Speaker 1: Oh god, I'm like, I think our mothers and just 579 00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,679 Speaker 1: parents in general, because it's not just ourmae. It's like, 580 00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,960 Speaker 1: this is happening to everyone. That's why therapists do exist, 581 00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:05,120 Speaker 1: because everyone's fucking it. 582 00:28:05,119 --> 00:28:06,560 Speaker 3: Up all the time, you know what I mean. 583 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: I'm like, that's my therapist that literally, I'm like, that's 584 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: why they stay in business is because really everyone is 585 00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:13,920 Speaker 1: fucking it up. 586 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:17,880 Speaker 3: But you know what, like, thank god we are though, 587 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:19,639 Speaker 3: because I think that there's something really there would be 588 00:28:19,640 --> 00:28:21,919 Speaker 3: something really boring about having it all buttoned up and 589 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 3: not being able to grow. And I think that I've 590 00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:27,920 Speaker 3: grown so much just from this journey of writing the show, 591 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 3: understanding where all these insecurities come from, and like transmuting 592 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 3: it into art. You're never going to have that moment again. 593 00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 3: And I always want to rush ahead and see what 594 00:28:38,440 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 3: the final outcome is going to be. With the result 595 00:28:40,640 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 3: is going to be, and I'm so like goal oriented 596 00:28:43,080 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 3: in my Asian nests. But there's I think if I 597 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:49,120 Speaker 3: were thinking like that all the time, I wouldn't be 598 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 3: enjoying this moment here with you. 599 00:28:50,520 --> 00:28:50,720 Speaker 5: Right. 600 00:28:50,800 --> 00:28:52,960 Speaker 3: I have that written on a post it like on 601 00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:55,480 Speaker 3: my bathroom mirror, because I have to remind myself every 602 00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:57,200 Speaker 3: day just to like, if. 603 00:28:57,120 --> 00:28:58,960 Speaker 4: It's a shit day, it's a shit day, right, it's 604 00:28:58,960 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 4: a great day. Great, it's all like part of the 605 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:02,480 Speaker 4: same soup. 606 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: I love that. Well, thank you so much for coming 607 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:10,040 Speaker 1: on today. This has been amazing. I have so much 608 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:11,800 Speaker 1: still to learn and know. I'm like, and I have 609 00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:13,600 Speaker 1: to see a picture of your mom nude, Like I 610 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:17,800 Speaker 1: absolutely have to see your mom naked, Like, I'm so sorry. 611 00:29:16,440 --> 00:29:26,680 Speaker 1: I Charlene did show me the picture, and y'all it's amazing. 612 00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:29,400 Speaker 1: You can see it for yourself at any one of 613 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: her shows while she's still on tour. And one more thing, 614 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:36,960 Speaker 1: we didn't talk nearly enough about Charlene's amazing music career 615 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:40,520 Speaker 1: in this interview, but she did serenade us in the 616 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: studio with a song inspired by her Wizard Rock days. Yes, 617 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 1: Wizard Rock. 618 00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 4: I've roped us because I have a gig tonight. But 619 00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 4: also I was like, actually, this. 620 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,240 Speaker 1: I would love so I. 621 00:29:51,680 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 4: Was part of this Harry Potter wizard rock band. 622 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 1: I have to take your picture with this guitar. You see. 623 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:03,880 Speaker 1: Long before guns and hoses and laby Ahead, Charlene was 624 00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 1: in a music group called Team star Kid that went 625 00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:11,920 Speaker 1: viral for creating a Harry Potter parody musical who Not 626 00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:19,800 Speaker 1: That tone? Mixed together a rabid fan base and the 627 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:23,680 Speaker 1: rise of Tumblr, and you've got yourself some horny teens 628 00:30:23,800 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: writing fan fiction about Charlene and her bandmates. It's pretty explicit, 629 00:30:29,240 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: So if you're trying to keep your listening PG. Thirteen, 630 00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:33,880 Speaker 1: don't say I didn't warn. 631 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 3: You, okay, So let me know when you're ready and 632 00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:46,280 Speaker 3: if the guitar levels okay, gorgeous. 633 00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 7: I read it on her sex Tumbler on a sex 634 00:30:50,360 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 7: tumb the Girl sex Tumbler on a sex Time the 635 00:30:54,680 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 7: Girl sex Tumbler, Your Wizard Love on her sex on 636 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 7: her sex Tumbler. Have you ever read erotic fiction about yourself? 637 00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:11,000 Speaker 7: On our orny Virgins tumbler in twenty twelve. I never 638 00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 7: knew where I was as freaky as she said I 639 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,000 Speaker 7: was when I was starring in her Wizard sput it 640 00:31:17,040 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 7: was like his hands on Shylene's ass. Oh shit, it's Darren, Chris, 641 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 7: Aileen and Forward kiss but it's the Hagrid. Turns out 642 00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 7: it's a threesome, all of us on our knees to 643 00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 7: humans and a giant eating as a Centerpede on her 644 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:34,320 Speaker 7: sex tumbler on. 645 00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:37,400 Speaker 1: You can listen to the full song on our Instagram. 646 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:41,440 Speaker 1: We're at boysover dot pod. Thanks for listening and we'll 647 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:49,400 Speaker 1: talk next week. Sex boy Sover is a production of 648 00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:54,200 Speaker 1: iHeart Podcasts. I'm your host, Hope Ordered. Our executive producers 649 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: are Christina Everett and Julie Pinero. Our supervising producer is 650 00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:03,640 Speaker 1: Emily meronoff engineering by Bahid Fraser and mixing and mastering 651 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,720 Speaker 1: by Aboo Zafar. If you liked this episode, please tell 652 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: a friend and don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe 653 00:32:10,840 --> 00:32:14,400 Speaker 1: to boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, and 654 00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 1: wherever you get your favorite shows.