1 00:00:01,960 --> 00:00:05,400 Speaker 1: Wind Down with Janet Kramer and I'm Heart Radio podcast. 2 00:00:06,280 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 2: This week's Thursday Therapy, We've got Lisa Cafov. She is 3 00:00:09,440 --> 00:00:12,600 Speaker 2: a grief specialist, speaker, and author. She's got a new 4 00:00:12,600 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 2: book out called Grief Is a Sneaky Bitch, An Uncensored 5 00:00:16,239 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 2: Guide to Navigating Loss. Let's get her on. Hi. 6 00:00:19,520 --> 00:00:23,880 Speaker 1: Hello, how are you? I am good? I am good. 7 00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: Nice to meet you. 8 00:00:24,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 2: Nice to meet you too. Thank you so much for 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 2: coming on, of. 10 00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:29,880 Speaker 1: Course, such a pleasure. Just wanted to say, in case 11 00:00:29,920 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: you wondered why I don't look like the blonde lady, 12 00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:33,440 Speaker 1: they probably sent you a picture of I don't know 13 00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:35,279 Speaker 1: if they told you. I just went through a year 14 00:00:35,280 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: and a half worth of cancer treatment and lost all 15 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: my hair and now I have chemo curls. This is 16 00:00:41,240 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: what come back. 17 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 2: I'm I'm sorry. 18 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:45,560 Speaker 1: I just always liked to do that because my picture 19 00:00:45,640 --> 00:00:47,920 Speaker 1: is out there always, and then like I give talks 20 00:00:47,920 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 1: and then I show up and people are like, is 21 00:00:50,240 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: that her? H? Well? 22 00:00:52,400 --> 00:00:54,720 Speaker 2: What can I ask? What kind of cancer you had? 23 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: Breast? Can't triple positive breast cancer? 24 00:00:56,680 --> 00:00:58,640 Speaker 2: Oh wow, I'm so sorry. Is it something that runs 25 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 2: in your family or Nope? 26 00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: And it was misdiagnosed for a year, which is the 27 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:04,479 Speaker 1: same thing that happened to my husband with his cancer, 28 00:01:04,520 --> 00:01:06,559 Speaker 1: my late husband. I'm a widow. It's been a time, 29 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: but I finished treatment. I got a clear scan. It's 30 00:01:10,400 --> 00:01:11,120 Speaker 1: all that matters. 31 00:01:11,319 --> 00:01:14,000 Speaker 2: That's amazing. Well, thank you, thank you for coming on 32 00:01:14,040 --> 00:01:16,440 Speaker 2: the show and sharing all about this, because I can't 33 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:21,080 Speaker 2: even imagine. I know, we like I share certain things 34 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,760 Speaker 2: that I've been through that you know that are hard, 35 00:01:24,240 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 2: But I mean loss is I mean, I can't imagine 36 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 2: losing someone. That's something that you know I've I haven't, 37 00:01:31,560 --> 00:01:33,600 Speaker 2: you know, I've I've lost grandparents right. 38 00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:36,600 Speaker 1: But sort of ordered death. 39 00:01:36,760 --> 00:01:39,759 Speaker 2: Right where it's you know, you still mourn their loss, 40 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 2: but it's a it's more of a celebration of life 41 00:01:42,360 --> 00:01:46,240 Speaker 2: because they had a beautiful, long life. And I can't imagine. 42 00:01:46,319 --> 00:01:48,520 Speaker 2: You know, I have a very good friend who lost 43 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:50,680 Speaker 2: her husband as well, and it's just like I I 44 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 2: that kind of loss. I just I can't even understand. 45 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:56,040 Speaker 2: So someone always like, are you okay, what do you need? 46 00:01:56,240 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: And for you? When your husband how what kind of 47 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 2: cancer did he have? 48 00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:03,760 Speaker 1: He had what turned out to be a grapefruit sized 49 00:02:03,800 --> 00:02:07,919 Speaker 1: brain tumor. He had brain cancer mexclioma, which was misdiagnosed 50 00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: for a year, and they finally ran a scan. So 51 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:13,840 Speaker 1: we had two and a half weeks between his diagnosis 52 00:02:13,840 --> 00:02:16,760 Speaker 1: and him dying in my arms. Oh and our daughter 53 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:19,400 Speaker 1: was seven at the time. But I say, I was 54 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:22,919 Speaker 1: saying in a talk I gave recently, I really lost 55 00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 1: him at forty three because he became completely unrecognizable and 56 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:28,680 Speaker 1: we were going from doctors to doctors and asking questions 57 00:02:28,680 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: and they were like, oh, it's midlife crisis, mental health, 58 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: go on drugs, then go off drugs. Then it's always 59 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,960 Speaker 1: making excuses and so anyway, so I sort of lost him, 60 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: not just unrecognizable, scary, kind of dangerous, as you might 61 00:02:42,720 --> 00:02:45,080 Speaker 1: not be surprised if you've ever known anybody with brain 62 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:47,840 Speaker 1: cancer can completely shift their personality. 63 00:02:48,400 --> 00:02:50,480 Speaker 2: No, I don't know much about it. 64 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:52,560 Speaker 1: He went from being the love of my life and 65 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 1: the kindest, most gentle, warm human being to be quite 66 00:02:56,600 --> 00:02:58,799 Speaker 1: a scary human being. So it was just like such 67 00:02:58,800 --> 00:03:02,360 Speaker 1: a rock. It's such a shift. So but I was. 68 00:03:02,960 --> 00:03:04,440 Speaker 1: I was, and I am a social worker and a 69 00:03:04,440 --> 00:03:07,720 Speaker 1: clinical social worker, and so grief was not my specialty 70 00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 1: at the time. But I was with him when he 71 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,639 Speaker 1: passed three years later. Was with my friend Joe with 72 00:03:12,760 --> 00:03:14,520 Speaker 1: him when he died in my arms, also in his 73 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: mid forties, so I sort of turned on and my anyways, 74 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:23,800 Speaker 1: well we'll talk about it, but it's just a it's 75 00:03:23,960 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: a different turn. But actually I'm actually very I always 76 00:03:26,200 --> 00:03:28,360 Speaker 1: try to say to people, I'm actually fun at a party, 77 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: and I have so much joy. Actually think because I 78 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:33,400 Speaker 1: do this work and because of what I've been through, 79 00:03:33,600 --> 00:03:35,240 Speaker 1: not that I don't have my dark moments. 80 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: Sure, no, of course, I mean we all did. 81 00:03:37,960 --> 00:03:40,680 Speaker 1: I appreciate I have sort of a capacity for awe 82 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,480 Speaker 1: and wander. I think in ways that I am not 83 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: sure I would have had. 84 00:03:45,120 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 2: Right, Well, you know, how truly the gift of life, 85 00:03:48,040 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 2: how precious everything is. 86 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:51,560 Speaker 1: I mean a year ago, was in a cheymotrayer, having 87 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:55,520 Speaker 1: horrible reactions, no hair, no eyebrows, no eyelashes, swollen from steroids. 88 00:03:55,560 --> 00:03:58,480 Speaker 1: And now I'm doing an eight city book tour. I'm 89 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:00,880 Speaker 1: sitting coming to from a hotel room Baltimore, having flown 90 00:04:00,880 --> 00:04:02,520 Speaker 1: a red eye last night. You know, like. 91 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:09,360 Speaker 2: Perspectives, perspective, Yeah, when you got your diagnosis for you like, God, 92 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 2: what are you doing? Like what? 93 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't. I was a literal yeah, I swear sometimes, 94 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:17,280 Speaker 1: as you won't be surprised since you know the name 95 00:04:17,320 --> 00:04:19,159 Speaker 1: of my book in my podcast, But I was a 96 00:04:19,160 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 1: little like what the actual I call those, I call 97 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: these challenges in our lives as a story I think 98 00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: I tell in the book. This book is a companion 99 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 1: obviously not a it's not a memoir. But my mom 100 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:32,240 Speaker 1: bought me this phrase when I was very young, after 101 00:04:32,279 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 1: surviving a horrific assault when I was a teen, about 102 00:04:35,839 --> 00:04:37,680 Speaker 1: how do you kind of make the most of things. 103 00:04:37,760 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: It's called afghos another growth opportunity. 104 00:04:40,760 --> 00:04:43,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I learned that in therapy as well. 105 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, one of the many tattoos on my body. 106 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:49,640 Speaker 1: So anyways, so when that when I finally got the news, 107 00:04:49,680 --> 00:04:52,720 Speaker 1: not to mention that I got the news ten days 108 00:04:52,720 --> 00:04:55,200 Speaker 1: before this book was due to the publisher and a 109 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 1: month before I was about to give a TED talk, 110 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 1: And after a year of arguing with doctors that this 111 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: lump I with something and they were telling me it wasn't. 112 00:05:03,520 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 1: So I definitely was like, Okay, I know there's an 113 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: af going this, but I don't need anymore. 114 00:05:09,600 --> 00:05:12,520 Speaker 2: John Good, Yeah, you hit your quota. 115 00:05:12,680 --> 00:05:17,560 Speaker 1: I have ascended to higher awareness many many times. But 116 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: you know, we don't really get to choose. 117 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:23,600 Speaker 2: What do you think the biggest misconception with grief is? 118 00:05:25,080 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 1: Oh, gosh, there are so many. We have such a 119 00:05:28,560 --> 00:05:32,400 Speaker 1: misguided and limited story of grief that causes us so 120 00:05:32,520 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: much unnecessary harm. It's almost hard to pick one. So 121 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: I'm going to just offer a few. I think the 122 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: biggest is that the sort of myth of the linear 123 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:45,839 Speaker 1: five stages of grief, which is not actually a thing. 124 00:05:45,880 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 1: That was not what Elizabeth koopleer Ross was saying. She 125 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: was talking about people coming to terms with their own death. 126 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:53,520 Speaker 1: And the reason I think that's the most problematic, although 127 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:57,000 Speaker 1: again there's a lot of competition for most problematic, is 128 00:05:57,000 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 1: that then we judge ourselves against that criteria that I'm 129 00:06:00,440 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: supposed to sort of move much like we do in 130 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 1: a capitalist society through these little five checklists, and then 131 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:09,920 Speaker 1: I'm going to be done and voila. And then when 132 00:06:09,920 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 1: that isn't the reality of the very messy, nonlinear, you know, 133 00:06:14,200 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: complex experience of grief, then we judge ourselves against it. 134 00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:19,919 Speaker 1: But there's a lot more. We also the myth that 135 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:22,840 Speaker 1: grief is just emotions. We have the myth that we 136 00:06:22,880 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: only grieve losses that are death losses. We have the 137 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: myth that we can't grieve things that we choose to leave, 138 00:06:30,040 --> 00:06:33,000 Speaker 1: which we can like the end of a relationship. 139 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:35,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I can speak to that one. I mean 140 00:06:35,320 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 2: I definitely when I divorced my husband, I mean, it 141 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,599 Speaker 2: was it to me, it felt like someone died. But 142 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 2: it was really hard for me to say that because 143 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, well, no one did die, but to me, 144 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:48,040 Speaker 2: it felt like there was a death in the house 145 00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:49,880 Speaker 2: and he left and then it was he was just gone, 146 00:06:49,920 --> 00:06:53,760 Speaker 2: and like like, yes, he was still there when I'd 147 00:06:53,760 --> 00:06:55,240 Speaker 2: see him, when he'd come to pick up the kids. 148 00:06:55,240 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: But it's just it was that relationship death. But I 149 00:06:57,680 --> 00:06:59,240 Speaker 2: didn't really feel like I could say that because it'd 150 00:06:59,279 --> 00:07:01,279 Speaker 2: be insensitive that actually have lost people. 151 00:07:01,720 --> 00:07:04,520 Speaker 1: Yes, now, I do think we I call that grief 152 00:07:04,560 --> 00:07:06,560 Speaker 1: thefing We don't need to compare our griefs and we 153 00:07:06,600 --> 00:07:08,359 Speaker 1: don't need to be a competition. I do think we 154 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 1: have to be mindful that when someone sharing like their 155 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 1: depths of their child, we're now like, oh, I know 156 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:17,960 Speaker 1: how you well, also don't ever that way, Yes, And 157 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 1: I think your point is really valid and That's part 158 00:07:20,240 --> 00:07:22,560 Speaker 1: of the work I do getting on stages writing is 159 00:07:22,560 --> 00:07:28,080 Speaker 1: that we have to acknowledge we grieve. These are the 160 00:07:28,160 --> 00:07:31,440 Speaker 1: kinds of ambiguous losses. We grieve the loss of things 161 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: that didn't come to pass that we had an expectation 162 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 1: that they came to pass, so that could be a 163 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:39,040 Speaker 1: relationship we had imagined going into the future, and all 164 00:07:39,040 --> 00:07:42,520 Speaker 1: the dreams and plans that we hoped it could be grieving, 165 00:07:43,120 --> 00:07:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, if we didn't have a secure attachment or 166 00:07:45,880 --> 00:07:49,800 Speaker 1: a care nurturing parent, or we dream like infertility is 167 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:52,600 Speaker 1: like the death of the dream that we had of 168 00:07:52,680 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: having children, and those losses are just as important for 169 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: us to come to grips with. So we get pathologized 170 00:08:00,160 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: with all kinds of things and diagnosed with all kinds 171 00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 1: of issues. Not that there aren't validity to diagnoses, but 172 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: I think often it's that we're not naming and honoring 173 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: and recognizing that this is actually grief and giving ourselves 174 00:08:15,360 --> 00:08:17,680 Speaker 1: permission to your point, like, oh, I can't give myself 175 00:08:17,680 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 1: permission because maybe it's not the same as somebody else, 176 00:08:20,960 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 1: or because I chose to leave it. No, we get 177 00:08:24,000 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 1: to grieve those things, and if we don't grieve it. 178 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 1: It's going to show up in all kinds of sideways 179 00:08:31,120 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: ways in our lives. 180 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:50,880 Speaker 2: And it's been thirteen years since your husband, which. 181 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,680 Speaker 1: Is so weird to me because it feels like yesterday 182 00:08:53,880 --> 00:08:57,719 Speaker 1: and forever ago. But yeah, it'll be twenty eleven, so 183 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,000 Speaker 1: it'll be thirteen years this summer since Eric died. 184 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,680 Speaker 2: How does one walk through when it's been you know, 185 00:09:05,760 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 2: a year and then two years. Is because I feel like, 186 00:09:08,160 --> 00:09:11,560 Speaker 2: you know, my one girlfriend who lost her husband, she's like, no, 187 00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,480 Speaker 2: you know, she's like, the timing is always hard because 188 00:09:14,480 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 2: she's just like, we can't move on too fast because 189 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,840 Speaker 2: then people are going to think you're insensitive or that 190 00:09:17,920 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 2: you don't you know, really love that person. Or it's 191 00:09:20,760 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 2: like after thirteen years, and I mean, I would imagine 192 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: that you would still have that loss and that sadness 193 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:28,640 Speaker 2: and that grief. So it's like, what do you kind 194 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:30,720 Speaker 2: of do with that grief after so many years? And 195 00:09:30,720 --> 00:09:35,559 Speaker 2: if someone's struggling that those many years after, Yeah, you. 196 00:09:35,480 --> 00:09:37,720 Speaker 1: Know, I think the answer is different for everybody. I 197 00:09:37,760 --> 00:09:40,400 Speaker 1: do think what happens in our grief and this has 198 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: certainly been my experience for my grief over Eric, is 199 00:09:44,760 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: I don't believe grief ends per se. I think that's 200 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,800 Speaker 1: one of the biggest myths. I think it just transforms, 201 00:09:49,960 --> 00:09:53,560 Speaker 1: and we're transformed by it, and grief becomes a part 202 00:09:53,600 --> 00:09:56,400 Speaker 1: of our story, not our whole story, though it feels 203 00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: that way in the beginning. And so my grief has 204 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:01,679 Speaker 1: looked different every year, and it certainly hasn't looked, you know, 205 00:10:01,840 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 1: like linear, just neat and orderly, you know, up up 206 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:10,400 Speaker 1: in an upwards fashion. So I carry where Eric with 207 00:10:10,520 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 1: me definitely in times of both celebration and tumult. His 208 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: very present. So during my cancer diagnosis, in the middle 209 00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,000 Speaker 1: of the night, when I was alone having to go 210 00:10:19,040 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 1: through all the side effects, he was there in a way, 211 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: but his absence was very present, and so I grieved 212 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: him in a way that I hadn't grieved him at 213 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: other times, at our daughter's graduation from high school, when 214 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:32,400 Speaker 1: she was going through hard things. Even on this you 215 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:34,280 Speaker 1: know here, I am, I published a book, I'm on 216 00:10:34,280 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 1: this book tour doing all these amazing things, and Eric 217 00:10:39,160 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: isn't here. I think what I've learned over time is 218 00:10:42,520 --> 00:10:46,559 Speaker 1: it's certainly less and actually I'm able to remember our 219 00:10:46,640 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: life together, not just as death. I think that's what 220 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 1: transforms for a lot of people in the early years. 221 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:54,440 Speaker 1: Part of how we're remembering our person, if it's a 222 00:10:54,480 --> 00:10:59,679 Speaker 1: death loss is how it ended, the disease, the absence, 223 00:11:00,120 --> 00:11:04,440 Speaker 1: and over time, for me, I'm much more able to 224 00:11:04,480 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 1: call to mind the joy and the gift and the 225 00:11:07,320 --> 00:11:10,680 Speaker 1: connection and the lessons that I learned. And that's so 226 00:11:10,880 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: like I have a different relationship with him, in a 227 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:18,040 Speaker 1: different relationship with grief over time. Yeah, and then I 228 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:19,600 Speaker 1: don't know if you were sort of alluding to like 229 00:11:19,640 --> 00:11:22,120 Speaker 1: moving on meaning dating, I've certainly had my fair share 230 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:23,600 Speaker 1: of dating. I feel like that could be a whole 231 00:11:23,640 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: nother podcast episode about dating after loss. And it definitely 232 00:11:29,880 --> 00:11:31,680 Speaker 1: took me a while to sort of figure out, like 233 00:11:31,760 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: what is okay? And are people judging me? And am 234 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: I judging myself? And what would Eric think? And you know, 235 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,400 Speaker 1: I'm currently single, so I can't say what it means 236 00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,520 Speaker 1: to be in a relationship at the moment, but it's 237 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:52,600 Speaker 1: an incredible journey. But I and I make so much 238 00:11:52,600 --> 00:11:57,400 Speaker 1: space for all the relationships in my life because luckily 239 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,920 Speaker 1: for me, I had an amazing real relationship in marriage. 240 00:12:02,080 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: So I think that's the other thing, Like for some 241 00:12:03,679 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: people who lose a spouse or a partner where the 242 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:10,400 Speaker 1: relationship was complicated, then that can be a different kind 243 00:12:10,440 --> 00:12:12,640 Speaker 1: of grieving journey because then they're both grieving the person, 244 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,959 Speaker 1: but also grieving that relationship never maybe got to be 245 00:12:16,040 --> 00:12:17,559 Speaker 1: the way they would have wished it would have been. 246 00:12:17,880 --> 00:12:20,760 Speaker 2: Right, how do you walk well, first of all, how 247 00:12:20,880 --> 00:12:23,280 Speaker 2: is your daughter? And how do you walk a child 248 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:26,040 Speaker 2: through grief? Because that's got to I can't even like, 249 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 2: even when I explain to my kids about heaven and 250 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 2: you know, they're you know, they'll, it's still such a 251 00:12:35,080 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 2: like I can't imagine, like if we lost someone, how 252 00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:38,640 Speaker 2: then to explain it to them? 253 00:12:39,800 --> 00:12:42,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean there are other people who are certainly 254 00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: experts in I think I come to mind think of 255 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 1: like the Dougie Center out of Portland. And for me, 256 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: even though I was a clinical social worker, same thing, 257 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:51,800 Speaker 1: I had that expectation I should know how to do this. 258 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:53,880 Speaker 1: But how does anyone know how to lose their husband 259 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 1: and then go home and tell their seven year old 260 00:12:55,320 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: that their dad is dead? You know, yeah, you don't 261 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 1: know how to do that? Or even I made the 262 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:02,080 Speaker 1: decision we had to take him off life support for 263 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:05,440 Speaker 1: her to come say goodbye, you know, and was that 264 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:08,080 Speaker 1: the right thing? You know? What I've learned both in 265 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:11,240 Speaker 1: my own experience with Lilly, who's now a junior finishing 266 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: her junior of college and is doing amazing and I 267 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 1: want to grow up and be like her, So that's 268 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:19,040 Speaker 1: an amazing feat. And he's she's a lot like Eric. 269 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:24,200 Speaker 1: But what I've learned is age appropriate. Of course, sure, 270 00:13:24,800 --> 00:13:31,440 Speaker 1: be direct, try not to use euphemisms. Don't say he's away, 271 00:13:31,800 --> 00:13:36,120 Speaker 1: because kids have magical thinking, So like, be direct. You know, 272 00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:38,800 Speaker 1: maybe his heart stopped beating and we need that, and 273 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:43,000 Speaker 1: he couldn't take in breath and ask the child questions. 274 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:45,680 Speaker 1: Don't be surprised when the child has magical thinking. And 275 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 1: even after you've explained their death, two days later or 276 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: two weeks later, they say I want daddy back, or 277 00:13:50,840 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: when's daddy coming back, et cetera. That happens. So, which 278 00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:57,160 Speaker 1: is a gut punch for the adult, by the way, 279 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 1: but it's really normal. And I think creating spaces for 280 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 1: that person for your child to be with, peers to 281 00:14:06,160 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: be supported, to have some normalcy and some routine as 282 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 1: much as you can. And that's where you might call 283 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:15,840 Speaker 1: on your grief supporters, because maybe you can't like my 284 00:14:15,960 --> 00:14:18,720 Speaker 1: girlfriends immediately because it was the end of summer and 285 00:14:18,760 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 1: we were literally about to leave on vacation, so I 286 00:14:20,880 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: had nowhere to take my daughter, and I'm trying to 287 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:24,760 Speaker 1: by the way, I had an emergency root canal three 288 00:14:24,840 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: days after he died, because your body completely collapses. So 289 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 1: get your friends and my friends all like enrolled her 290 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:34,640 Speaker 1: in an art camp that one of my friends was running, 291 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 1: and just took her and just kept her at play 292 00:14:37,560 --> 00:14:41,800 Speaker 1: dates and doing kind of normal things, allowing your child 293 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:46,560 Speaker 1: to have as much of a normal, safe kind of 294 00:14:46,760 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: life and routine. But to be direct and thoughtful is 295 00:14:52,360 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 1: feels impossible, but is so important. 296 00:14:56,920 --> 00:15:00,120 Speaker 2: What are some of the tools that you learn and 297 00:15:00,880 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 2: that were helpful for you during your grief period that 298 00:15:03,360 --> 00:15:04,080 Speaker 2: you put in the book? 299 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:08,800 Speaker 1: Oh, there are so many that I've learned along the way, 300 00:15:08,880 --> 00:15:10,880 Speaker 1: some of which comes from my training as a social 301 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,200 Speaker 1: worker and narrative therapist, but some have just come by 302 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 1: trial and error and then also by working with people. 303 00:15:17,160 --> 00:15:20,240 Speaker 1: For me, a mindfulness practice has been probably my number 304 00:15:20,320 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: one key practice. So that sometimes looks like meditation for people. 305 00:15:27,120 --> 00:15:29,840 Speaker 1: But if met the word meditation scares you and you're like, 306 00:15:29,880 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: I'm not good at it. First of all, that there's 307 00:15:31,760 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: no such thing. The goal is not to be good 308 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: at it, But it's just really about being mindful, really 309 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 1: checking inWORD, listening to my physiology, listening to my body, 310 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:44,760 Speaker 1: taking breasts, noticing when I become super activated. I also 311 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: have a history of trauma prior to that, so mindfulness 312 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:51,520 Speaker 1: and somatics have been really important a tool I teach 313 00:15:51,520 --> 00:15:54,200 Speaker 1: people all the time I work. I do this all 314 00:15:54,240 --> 00:15:55,880 Speaker 1: the time when I work with people. Is becoming a 315 00:15:55,960 --> 00:16:01,400 Speaker 1: should detective, So we should all over ourselves all time, 316 00:16:01,520 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 1: and grief especially because we have these misguided stories about 317 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: what our grief should and shouldn't feel like and look like. 318 00:16:09,280 --> 00:16:11,280 Speaker 1: That's actually the opening question I ask all of my 319 00:16:11,320 --> 00:16:14,960 Speaker 1: guests on my podcast, what was your earliest memory of grief? 320 00:16:15,000 --> 00:16:17,920 Speaker 1: And how are the adults in your life modeling grief 321 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:21,240 Speaker 1: explicitly or implicitly, and how do you think what do 322 00:16:21,240 --> 00:16:23,760 Speaker 1: you think that taught you about what grief should or 323 00:16:23,800 --> 00:16:24,640 Speaker 1: shouldn't look like? 324 00:16:25,040 --> 00:16:25,200 Speaker 2: Right? 325 00:16:25,720 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: And how is that serving you now? And so we're often, 326 00:16:29,160 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 1: again as comes from probably my training as an error therapy, 327 00:16:31,480 --> 00:16:34,320 Speaker 1: we're often should and shouldn't seeing all of ourselves and 328 00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: by the way other people are doing that to us too. 329 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:38,880 Speaker 1: You shouldn't be so sad still, or you shouldn't talk 330 00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: about your person. But if we can be a should 331 00:16:41,360 --> 00:16:46,320 Speaker 1: detective and notice when are we sort of judging ourselves 332 00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,040 Speaker 1: in ways I shouldn't feel so bad it's been X 333 00:16:49,120 --> 00:16:52,800 Speaker 1: number of years, etc. Then we can begin to reframe 334 00:16:52,840 --> 00:16:56,400 Speaker 1: and offer ourselves a lot more grace and compassion and 335 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,360 Speaker 1: so sort of mindfulness being a should detective, I'd say 336 00:17:00,360 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: the other I don't know if it's a skill, but 337 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:04,639 Speaker 1: another thing to be aware of that it took me 338 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,720 Speaker 1: a while to understand as I moved into this work 339 00:17:08,760 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: as a grief activist, is that grief is not just 340 00:17:13,160 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 1: this emotional thing. It's just not just emotions, and even 341 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:19,159 Speaker 1: within emotions, and not just sad, which is usually what 342 00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:22,320 Speaker 1: we talk about. It's actually anxiety and anger and fear 343 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:29,040 Speaker 1: and longing. But grief impacts us emotionally, physically, cognitively, relationally, 344 00:17:29,119 --> 00:17:33,800 Speaker 1: and spiritually. So when I think about caring for myself 345 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 1: or caring for my daughter and grief, or showing up 346 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: and support of somebody else, I'm always trying to inventory, 347 00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 1: checking in on all of those domains of my life. 348 00:17:43,680 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: So I got called back to work two weeks after 349 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,080 Speaker 1: my husband died. I was a clinical social worker working 350 00:17:49,080 --> 00:17:51,520 Speaker 1: for other social workers and had to go back to work. 351 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 1: And one of the things I hadn't been prepared for 352 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,639 Speaker 1: is the cognitive impact on your brain. So you might 353 00:17:58,680 --> 00:18:00,879 Speaker 1: have heard of grief brain or brain fog. This is 354 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,240 Speaker 1: a real thing. Mary Francis O'Connor has been doing some 355 00:18:03,359 --> 00:18:07,520 Speaker 1: phenomenal research on it now. I didn't know that then, 356 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:10,879 Speaker 1: And in a way, it's because we are Grief is 357 00:18:10,920 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 1: basically a chronic stress state, and when we're in a stress, 358 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:18,919 Speaker 1: straight stress state, for good reasons, our prefront this part 359 00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: of our brain, the logic and memory and processing part 360 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:23,840 Speaker 1: of our brain, goes offline. Because when you're in a 361 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,240 Speaker 1: stress state, that's when you get all the blood pumping, 362 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:28,119 Speaker 1: so you can run from the saber tooth tiger, right Like, 363 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:30,399 Speaker 1: that's why we need that. But I wasn't trying to 364 00:18:30,440 --> 00:18:32,080 Speaker 1: run from a saber tooth tiger. I was trying to 365 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 1: raise my daughter and see my clients and do my work, 366 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: and so using sticky notes and reminders and giving myself 367 00:18:39,600 --> 00:18:41,199 Speaker 1: a lot of grace when I couldn't figure out how 368 00:18:41,240 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: to do things and asking people to help me figure 369 00:18:44,840 --> 00:18:46,919 Speaker 1: out all the navigating of the systems that I had 370 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: to navigate now getting death certificates and filing for Social 371 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: Security disability and you know, filling out all the paperwork, right, 372 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:59,639 Speaker 1: So recognizing and checking in on all the domains of 373 00:18:59,680 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 1: my life and inviting other people to do that. I 374 00:19:03,080 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 1: still use that till to this day, because again I've 375 00:19:06,240 --> 00:19:09,320 Speaker 1: experienced other losses, and because grief comp carries with us 376 00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:12,280 Speaker 1: and transforms over time. But when we go through a 377 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,439 Speaker 1: hard thing, a chronic disease, an illness, a diagnosis of 378 00:19:17,440 --> 00:19:19,720 Speaker 1: ourselves or someone else we love, when we go through 379 00:19:19,720 --> 00:19:22,000 Speaker 1: a loss, a divorce, at the ending of a relationship, 380 00:19:22,920 --> 00:19:26,679 Speaker 1: I really encourage people to think about those five domains 381 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,160 Speaker 1: of our lives. So when we think about caring for ourselves, 382 00:19:30,160 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: we want to be attending to all of those. And 383 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:35,800 Speaker 1: often when we're struggling or stuck in some way, it's 384 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:40,159 Speaker 1: because we haven't. There's a piece of that part of 385 00:19:40,200 --> 00:19:41,919 Speaker 1: our lives that we haven't really attended to. 386 00:19:42,359 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 2: Sure, yeah, can I ask? And I hope this isn't. 387 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:02,280 Speaker 2: I'm just I guess curious. On my side, I have 388 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:07,160 Speaker 2: such a fear of death. Has your relationship with death changed? 389 00:20:07,440 --> 00:20:10,560 Speaker 2: And is like, what would you say to someone like 390 00:20:10,600 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 2: me that that does fear death, Like I'm you know, 391 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,320 Speaker 2: I've got three children, and I'm I'm so fearful of 392 00:20:16,359 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 2: so many things. I'm like, well, I don't want them 393 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,679 Speaker 2: to grow up not having me in their life and 394 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 2: being a mom. And it's just and then and then what? 395 00:20:21,880 --> 00:20:23,520 Speaker 2: And like I believe in God, I believe in heaven. 396 00:20:23,560 --> 00:20:26,520 Speaker 2: I believe in all those things, but I still I 397 00:20:26,600 --> 00:20:28,560 Speaker 2: still struggle with the fear of it. 398 00:20:29,320 --> 00:20:31,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, I'm going to call on some of my 399 00:20:31,640 --> 00:20:35,439 Speaker 1: favorite colleagues in the death doula and hospice space, like 400 00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 1: Lisa Paul who created something called the Death Deck and 401 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:39,639 Speaker 1: the End of Life Deck, which you might want to 402 00:20:39,720 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 1: check out. Or Ailua Arthur who was on my podcast, 403 00:20:42,520 --> 00:20:45,920 Speaker 1: who just wrote an incredible New York Times bestselling book, 404 00:20:46,760 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: Briefly Perfectly Human. Is this fun party stat that I 405 00:20:50,600 --> 00:20:52,879 Speaker 1: have one hundred percent of us are going to die? 406 00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:56,560 Speaker 1: I was joke, like, Hi, my name's Lisa. One hundred 407 00:20:56,560 --> 00:20:58,719 Speaker 1: percent of us will experience grief multiple times in our 408 00:20:58,760 --> 00:21:01,440 Speaker 1: lives and we're all going to die and meet you. 409 00:21:02,280 --> 00:21:04,159 Speaker 1: Except I think and this goes back to what I 410 00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:06,760 Speaker 1: said before, and I'll get serious and the answer is, 411 00:21:07,200 --> 00:21:11,679 Speaker 1: I actually think having death be present in our life 412 00:21:11,760 --> 00:21:16,080 Speaker 1: can be a gift, meaning it helps us get really 413 00:21:16,200 --> 00:21:22,680 Speaker 1: clear about what matters and what doesn't. Because think about 414 00:21:22,720 --> 00:21:26,320 Speaker 1: all the time you spend in the day about appearance 415 00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 1: or the right school, or the how somebody was going 416 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:32,960 Speaker 1: to talk to me, or if they got the raids, 417 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: and not that we can't have goals and ambitions, And 418 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:39,720 Speaker 1: I think that's really beautiful. But I think centering death 419 00:21:40,000 --> 00:21:43,600 Speaker 1: as a present meditation in our life actually helps us 420 00:21:43,600 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: get clear on what do we value. How do we 421 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:50,320 Speaker 1: value our time, our relationships. Do we communicate with the 422 00:21:50,359 --> 00:21:52,560 Speaker 1: people that we love that we love them, and how 423 00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:55,159 Speaker 1: often do we do that? Do we make assumptions we 424 00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:57,159 Speaker 1: can do this down the road because they're always going 425 00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 1: to be here. No they're not, and we're not either, 426 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 1: And the truth is we don't know. Sometimes we have 427 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,520 Speaker 1: a clear you know, we have a diagnosis and a 428 00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,520 Speaker 1: doctor has told us and it's but a lot of 429 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 1: times it's not so to me, I think, first of all, 430 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,120 Speaker 1: And I also think, just as a parent, I think 431 00:22:14,119 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 1: being really practical, like make sure you really don't let 432 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,520 Speaker 1: that fear keep you from Do you have a will? 433 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,160 Speaker 1: Do you have God? Parents? If people believe in God, 434 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,280 Speaker 1: do you have you explicitly said to those people these 435 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,159 Speaker 1: are the things that matter to me in terms of 436 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:29,960 Speaker 1: how you raise them. Have you told the people you 437 00:22:30,040 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 1: love your arrangements. I don't want to be kept on 438 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: life support. I do want to be cremated. I don't 439 00:22:35,720 --> 00:22:37,679 Speaker 1: want to be cremated. And I tell you this because 440 00:22:38,040 --> 00:22:40,800 Speaker 1: the best gift you can give to somebody you love 441 00:22:41,920 --> 00:22:46,400 Speaker 1: is having all of those answers really clear. Because when 442 00:22:46,440 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 1: I've worked with people over time, some of the ways 443 00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:51,640 Speaker 1: in which they struggle the most, whether it's the children 444 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,720 Speaker 1: of somebody, the partner, the parent, is because they question 445 00:22:55,920 --> 00:23:00,399 Speaker 1: whether they did the right thing. Sure you know, and 446 00:23:00,480 --> 00:23:03,679 Speaker 1: so recognizing that we don't have control over when the 447 00:23:03,760 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 1: end comes can help us focus on how to live. 448 00:23:08,320 --> 00:23:10,440 Speaker 1: And that's where I started the conversations, like I'm fun 449 00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,439 Speaker 1: at a party. I live. I do think, not that 450 00:23:13,480 --> 00:23:15,280 Speaker 1: I don't get caught up in the mundane every day 451 00:23:15,520 --> 00:23:19,520 Speaker 1: bs of life, because I'm human, right, but I think 452 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:22,520 Speaker 1: it helps me live in with a state of awe 453 00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: and wonder and appreciation. I think I'm a way better 454 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:29,159 Speaker 1: friend than I used to be. I'm a better parent, 455 00:23:30,080 --> 00:23:32,720 Speaker 1: I'm a better daughter. Frankly, I'm very grateful to say 456 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: that both of my parents are still alive. My dad 457 00:23:34,720 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: is ninety two. Amazing, right, Am I great at it 458 00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: all the time? No Am I the perfect daughter? No 459 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:44,120 Speaker 1: Am I the perfect mom. Talk to my daughter Lily. 460 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: She would probably tell you not, although she does think 461 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:48,879 Speaker 1: I'm pretty cool these days, which is great when they 462 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:50,800 Speaker 1: turn twenty. By the way, if you have a teenager, 463 00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: it's okay, they come around again, I promise. I think 464 00:23:55,520 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: I live really in alignment with my integrity, and I 465 00:24:00,920 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 1: think that comes from experiencing so many losses. So I 466 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:10,400 Speaker 1: try my best to think about these losses and even 467 00:24:10,440 --> 00:24:12,720 Speaker 1: the expectation of loss. As I said, I just navigated 468 00:24:12,760 --> 00:24:15,359 Speaker 1: a year and a half of breast cancer. Thankfully not 469 00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 1: come whatever. I've got a clear scan, but as just 470 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:23,359 Speaker 1: a reminder of what I know. It sounds cliche, but 471 00:24:23,880 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: do it. Life is a gift. It is such a 472 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,120 Speaker 1: gift's and the way I do that, by the way, 473 00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,320 Speaker 1: is when death or illness, I start spiral like I 474 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,720 Speaker 1: was when chemo was taking me down to the to 475 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 1: the most base human form. I remember to come back 476 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 1: to the present moment, and that's where back to skills 477 00:24:44,640 --> 00:24:49,520 Speaker 1: mindfulness is critical, because when we start to spiral on death, 478 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:51,479 Speaker 1: we are in a future, imagined state that we have 479 00:24:51,480 --> 00:24:53,720 Speaker 1: no control over and that probably actually won't come to 480 00:24:53,760 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 1: pass and the way we fear or imagine. So I 481 00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,399 Speaker 1: always come back to the present and then treat the 482 00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:05,400 Speaker 1: present as a present. What a gift? The present is 483 00:25:05,480 --> 00:25:06,000 Speaker 1: a present? 484 00:25:07,040 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: And what do you want your biggest takeaway to be 485 00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:11,639 Speaker 2: from this book that people when people read it. 486 00:25:13,440 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: I wrote this book to be honest in a way, 487 00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:18,119 Speaker 1: because it was the book that I didn't have when 488 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:19,960 Speaker 1: Eric died, and then when Joe died, and when other 489 00:25:19,960 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 1: people died. I want people to feel held and seen 490 00:25:26,760 --> 00:25:30,720 Speaker 1: and acknowledged in their grief, in all the messy, beautiful 491 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 1: humanity of their grief. It's full of science, it's full 492 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:36,399 Speaker 1: of personality. It's full of a judicious use of cussing, 493 00:25:36,440 --> 00:25:40,080 Speaker 1: as I always say it, and it shows I show 494 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: up as myself, both my clinician self but also as 495 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:46,719 Speaker 1: my personal self. But it's really that compassionate companion guide 496 00:25:47,320 --> 00:25:50,920 Speaker 1: because so many of us don't have the person in 497 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:55,479 Speaker 1: our life who really gets what grief is and can 498 00:25:55,600 --> 00:25:59,800 Speaker 1: and can be with us in the messiness and be 499 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:01,679 Speaker 1: us when we're sitting in the suck, as one of 500 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,760 Speaker 1: my guests called it. So I want people to feel 501 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,480 Speaker 1: held and seen, just and affirmed just as they are 502 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,119 Speaker 1: loved in their grief. And I really do believe that 503 00:26:12,200 --> 00:26:15,200 Speaker 1: I was able to offer that in this book. 504 00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 2: Well, thank you for everything that you do. Thank you 505 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 2: for this book. It's going to help a lot of people, 506 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:22,800 Speaker 2: and I just appreciate you taking the time. And we'll 507 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 2: be praying for you that everything, all your scans further 508 00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 2: are being clear, clear and clear, clear, clear. 509 00:26:28,840 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. It was really wonderful spending this time 510 00:26:31,240 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: with you. I loved it. 511 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:34,639 Speaker 2: Same. Thank you so much. Everyone, Go Get Grief is 512 00:26:34,640 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 2: a Sneaky Bitch, an uncensored guide to navigating loss.