1
00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:12,760
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. I observed quite a large

2
00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:19,320
Speaker 1: amount of blood and not too short distance was Ashley's body.

3
00:00:22,480 --> 00:00:26,239
Speaker 1: A lot of anger, a lot of rage. Somebody had

4
00:00:26,720 --> 00:00:31,240
Speaker 1: isolated Ashley ellerin the killer and was very, very angry

5
00:00:31,240 --> 00:00:34,920
Speaker 1: when he did it. It just was a very bad scene,

6
00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:39,920
Speaker 1: probably one of the worst I've seen. But what surprised

7
00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:43,920
Speaker 1: this seasoned investigator even more was what he didn't see

8
00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,760
Speaker 1: any evidence that would point to a killer. You know,

9
00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:50,080
Speaker 1: we were just looking for any type of direction or

10
00:00:50,159 --> 00:00:55,560
Speaker 1: clues that would to lead to a suspect. It was

11
00:00:55,600 --> 00:00:59,720
Speaker 1: Ashley's friends that gave detectives that first and only clue,

12
00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:02,680
Speaker 1: pointing them to a young man Ashley had met in

13
00:01:02,720 --> 00:01:06,319
Speaker 1: the neighborhood months earlier. The information we have is that

14
00:01:06,440 --> 00:01:09,160
Speaker 1: he introduced himself as a heating and airgation. How does

15
00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:14,880
Speaker 1: all of this relate to Hollywood star Ashton Kutcher? I,

16
00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,959
Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, this is Crime Stories, Thank you for being

17
00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:21,039
Speaker 1: with us with me an all star panel starting with

18
00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:25,679
Speaker 1: Marjorie Hernandez, Justice editor at US Weekly and Radar Online

19
00:01:25,720 --> 00:01:30,160
Speaker 1: dot Com. Doctor Ryan Fuller, clinical psychologist and director of

20
00:01:30,160 --> 00:01:34,479
Speaker 1: New York Behavioral Health, Ashley Wilcot judge lawyer. You can

21
00:01:34,480 --> 00:01:37,240
Speaker 1: find her at Ashley Wilcott dot com and Vincent Hill,

22
00:01:37,720 --> 00:01:42,040
Speaker 1: cop turned PI and author of playbook to a Murder

23
00:01:42,080 --> 00:01:46,000
Speaker 1: on Amazon. First to you, Marjorie Hernandez, thanks so much

24
00:01:46,040 --> 00:01:49,240
Speaker 1: for being with us. Ashton Kutcher, the star of that

25
00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:54,840
Speaker 1: seventies show and so many other major, major hits, says

26
00:01:54,920 --> 00:01:59,880
Speaker 1: he quote screwed up and was quote freaking out when

27
00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:03,840
Speaker 1: the body of this gorgeous young woman was found in

28
00:02:04,000 --> 00:02:08,400
Speaker 1: her apartment dead. Let me first start with the crime,

29
00:02:08,480 --> 00:02:11,799
Speaker 1: saying Marjorie Hernandez, what do we know? Well, Ashley was

30
00:02:11,919 --> 00:02:16,639
Speaker 1: found stabbed forty seven times, literally from her head to toe,

31
00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:22,200
Speaker 1: and the wounds were so terrible and horrendous that she

32
00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:28,120
Speaker 1: was almost decapitated. And the next day her roommate found

33
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:31,560
Speaker 1: her lying on the ground in her own blah blood.

34
00:02:32,120 --> 00:02:36,639
Speaker 1: Who is Ashley Ellern? This is what we know. Take

35
00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,400
Speaker 1: listen to my friend Jesse Palmer. Ashley Ellern was a

36
00:02:39,440 --> 00:02:42,160
Speaker 1: happy team with a bright future. She grew up in

37
00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:46,000
Speaker 1: the Silicon Valley town of Los Altos, California. Daily Mail

38
00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,640
Speaker 1: TV has exclusively obtained photos from her days in high school.

39
00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,760
Speaker 1: Ashley was a member of the swimming team and grinned

40
00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,560
Speaker 1: from ear to ear when posing with the water polo team.

41
00:02:55,880 --> 00:02:59,360
Speaker 1: She was class council treasurer during her junior year. In

42
00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:04,280
Speaker 1: one year photo, the Bookish team wears glasses, it's captioned flashback,

43
00:03:04,760 --> 00:03:07,440
Speaker 1: Ashley Ellern takes time out of her hectic schedule to

44
00:03:07,520 --> 00:03:10,480
Speaker 1: talk with a friend during brunch. Here she displays a

45
00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 1: radiant smile with her arms draped around classmates. A few

46
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:18,600
Speaker 1: years later, she met actor Ashton Kutcher. It's okay, I

47
00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 1: know what to do. He was the sexy goofball on

48
00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:24,000
Speaker 1: that seventy show and his star was on the rise.

49
00:03:24,360 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 1: Ashley was twenty two and studying fashion. In February of

50
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,680
Speaker 1: two thousand and one, she was getting ready for a

51
00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,240
Speaker 1: date with Kutcher when cops say broke into her home

52
00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:35,200
Speaker 1: and stabbed her forty seven times. You're hearing our friend,

53
00:03:35,280 --> 00:03:40,360
Speaker 1: Jesse Palmer Aunt Daily Mail TV. This young woman, Ashley Ellern,

54
00:03:40,480 --> 00:03:44,560
Speaker 1: just twenty two years old, stabbed nearly fifty times in

55
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:49,000
Speaker 1: her own home to doctor Ryan Fuller, clinical psychologist. Doctor Fuller,

56
00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:51,760
Speaker 1: thank you for being what thus got a question for you?

57
00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:56,600
Speaker 1: In my world of criminal law, it's very significant that

58
00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:02,000
Speaker 1: a victim an unarmed victim is stab forty seven times.

59
00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:04,960
Speaker 1: What does it mean in the world of psychology, Well,

60
00:04:04,960 --> 00:04:08,160
Speaker 1: the amount of time it takes and the gruesome just

61
00:04:08,360 --> 00:04:12,400
Speaker 1: experience means that the person you know taking part in

62
00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:15,840
Speaker 1: that act is not experiencing empathy or fear or discussed

63
00:04:16,120 --> 00:04:18,800
Speaker 1: and you know, something must be overwhelming the person like

64
00:04:19,520 --> 00:04:24,320
Speaker 1: rage or as I said, they just really their mingdala

65
00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:27,000
Speaker 1: is not firing in a way, but they're experiencing the

66
00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:29,440
Speaker 1: thing that normally keep the rest of us from taking

67
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,320
Speaker 1: those kinds of actions, the kind of morality that would

68
00:04:32,320 --> 00:04:35,520
Speaker 1: indicate through be incredible fear and disgust and horror, something

69
00:04:35,600 --> 00:04:38,280
Speaker 1: like that. You know. The other aspect in my mind,

70
00:04:38,320 --> 00:04:40,400
Speaker 1: Ashu Willcott with me. You can find her at Ashu

71
00:04:40,480 --> 00:04:44,679
Speaker 1: Wilcot dot com, is we have two choices. The killer

72
00:04:44,920 --> 00:04:48,560
Speaker 1: was either an intruder and you would expect to find

73
00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:54,800
Speaker 1: a broken window, a forced window, prime marks on the door,

74
00:04:54,920 --> 00:04:58,839
Speaker 1: some sort of intrusion, or it's someone she knows and

75
00:04:59,040 --> 00:05:06,040
Speaker 1: allows the home to me forty seven stab wounds. You know,

76
00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:10,000
Speaker 1: as you know, Ashley, I often call stabbings a sweetheart murder,

77
00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,360
Speaker 1: not that there is any love loss between the two,

78
00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,239
Speaker 1: but you are close up and intimate with your victim,

79
00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:19,760
Speaker 1: and to affect a death like this, a murder like this,

80
00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:25,160
Speaker 1: or any stabbing, you are within arm's reach or much closer.

81
00:05:25,200 --> 00:05:29,960
Speaker 1: I mean. Think of Jody Arius and her victim, Travis Alexander,

82
00:05:30,040 --> 00:05:33,000
Speaker 1: stabbed approximately twenty eight times and then shot in the head,

83
00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:37,599
Speaker 1: left naked in the shower stall. She was close up

84
00:05:37,640 --> 00:05:41,359
Speaker 1: and personal with him to affect the murder. Same thing here.

85
00:05:42,040 --> 00:05:44,400
Speaker 1: So you have the choice of an intruder or someone

86
00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:47,960
Speaker 1: she lets into the home. Tell me your thoughts on

87
00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,560
Speaker 1: the mode of murder. Yeah, the mode of murder. To me,

88
00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,520
Speaker 1: I completely agree that it is. That's a crime of passion.

89
00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 1: You do not see that number of brutal stab wounds,

90
00:05:57,760 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 1: almost decapitating her nancy unless it is a person that

91
00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,119
Speaker 1: has entered her home with her consent, whether it's someone

92
00:06:05,200 --> 00:06:07,680
Speaker 1: she knew, or whether it's someone who's in a person

93
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,080
Speaker 1: a position of trust that you might think, Oh, of

94
00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:13,480
Speaker 1: course I can let this person in because this is

95
00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 1: what they do for a living, or this is someone

96
00:06:15,520 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 1: I can trust. Maybe they're doing work on the house.

97
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:19,640
Speaker 1: Let's let them in. Yeah. You know what, when I

98
00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:24,000
Speaker 1: say let them in, you're right, it doesn't necessarily mean

99
00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:30,000
Speaker 1: a boyfriend, a neighbor, a family, ir relative, into someone

100
00:06:30,080 --> 00:06:33,400
Speaker 1: related in some way. It could be just that. Now

101
00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,240
Speaker 1: take a listen to this. The body of twenty two

102
00:06:36,320 --> 00:06:39,239
Speaker 1: year old Ashley Lord Ellerin was found by her roommate

103
00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:43,320
Speaker 1: early Thursday morning. Police see the stabbing happened Wednesday night.

104
00:06:43,520 --> 00:06:49,680
Speaker 1: I remember like it was yesterday. I entered the house.

105
00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 1: There was two steps to the left here and Ashley

106
00:06:53,640 --> 00:06:58,560
Speaker 1: was laying across the two stairs, absolutely blue and covered

107
00:06:58,560 --> 00:07:01,920
Speaker 1: in blood. Of trauma just came over me. I thought

108
00:07:01,920 --> 00:07:03,640
Speaker 1: maybe the person was sold there, and I kind of

109
00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:06,719
Speaker 1: ran out and then came to the car and calling

110
00:07:06,760 --> 00:07:17,080
Speaker 1: from my cell phone. It still traumatizes me to this day.

111
00:07:17,080 --> 00:07:21,640
Speaker 1: Ashley Ellerin was just everybody's daughter, living life and having fun.

112
00:07:23,280 --> 00:07:26,400
Speaker 1: She winds up meeting somebody who's the wrong person and

113
00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:29,440
Speaker 1: lost her life over it. You're hearing our friend Maureen

114
00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:33,000
Speaker 1: Marr at forty eight Hours over at CBS. But how

115
00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:37,320
Speaker 1: does Ashton cult your fit into this young girl's murder?

116
00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:53,800
Speaker 1: Crime stories with Nancy Grace, Ashton Kutcher takes the stand

117
00:07:53,880 --> 00:07:56,880
Speaker 1: in the Hollywood Ripper murder trial. The actor appears in

118
00:07:56,880 --> 00:07:59,680
Speaker 1: the Los Angeles courtroom and testifies that on the night.

119
00:07:59,680 --> 00:08:02,960
Speaker 1: Ash Ellern was killed on February twenty first, two thousand

120
00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,360
Speaker 1: and one. They had plans to get dinner or drinks

121
00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 1: and had spoken on the phone earlier in the evening,

122
00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,240
Speaker 1: but later on he tried her multiple times and she

123
00:08:10,280 --> 00:08:12,240
Speaker 1: didn't pick up, and when he came to her home,

124
00:08:12,360 --> 00:08:15,239
Speaker 1: nobody answered the door when he knocked, despite the fact

125
00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:17,560
Speaker 1: that the lights were on inside. I thought it odd

126
00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:19,400
Speaker 1: the lights were all on. I didn't want to be

127
00:08:19,440 --> 00:08:22,200
Speaker 1: the guy looking through her window, Kutcher said, adding that

128
00:08:22,280 --> 00:08:24,520
Speaker 1: the place looked a little bit of a mess. Then

129
00:08:24,560 --> 00:08:26,960
Speaker 1: I saw what I thought was red wine on the carpet.

130
00:08:27,160 --> 00:08:29,400
Speaker 1: He thought it may be spilt wine from a party.

131
00:08:29,480 --> 00:08:31,880
Speaker 1: The next day, when he learned Ellerin had been murdered,

132
00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:35,559
Speaker 1: Kutcher testified that he remembered freaking out about having fingerprints

133
00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:37,920
Speaker 1: on her door knob after the murder, and that he

134
00:08:38,000 --> 00:08:40,600
Speaker 1: told the police everything he knew and was not involved

135
00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:44,160
Speaker 1: in the killing. The suspected killer's attorney joked, don't worry,

136
00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:47,040
Speaker 1: you're not a suspect. Ashton laughed and said thank you,

137
00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:49,880
Speaker 1: and ended his testimony. He took a deep breath and

138
00:08:49,920 --> 00:08:53,320
Speaker 1: walked out of the courtroom. Kutcher testified for about forty minutes.

139
00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:56,240
Speaker 1: You're hearing your friends over a knees. Welcome back, everybody,

140
00:08:56,360 --> 00:08:59,280
Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace. This is crime Stories. Ashton Kusher on

141
00:08:59,320 --> 00:09:01,920
Speaker 1: the stand in a court of law in a murder case,

142
00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,480
Speaker 1: a murder case that has now been linked to the

143
00:09:04,600 --> 00:09:09,199
Speaker 1: murders of several other young women, and the alleged killer

144
00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:14,160
Speaker 1: now has the moniker Hollywood Ripper joining me. Vincent Hill,

145
00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,800
Speaker 1: Ashley Willcot, doctor Ryan Fuller, and Marjorie Hernandez, justice editor

146
00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,280
Speaker 1: at US Weekly and Radar Online dot Com. Marjorie explained

147
00:09:22,280 --> 00:09:26,880
Speaker 1: to me how Ashton Kutcher is embroiled in a serial

148
00:09:26,960 --> 00:09:31,319
Speaker 1: murder case. Ashton Kutcher was asked to testify about the

149
00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:34,080
Speaker 1: events that happened that night that he was supposed to

150
00:09:34,080 --> 00:09:37,559
Speaker 1: pick her up for a date, and he had called

151
00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:40,320
Speaker 1: her several times to try to set this date and

152
00:09:40,400 --> 00:09:43,839
Speaker 1: when they when he finally tried to go to her home,

153
00:09:44,360 --> 00:09:49,320
Speaker 1: she did not answer. And he did speak to authorities

154
00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:53,760
Speaker 1: and say that he tried to pick her up that date,

155
00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:58,000
Speaker 1: but she never answered her door. Vincent Hill, private investigator,

156
00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:01,760
Speaker 1: a former cop author of playbook to her Arder Kutcher

157
00:10:01,880 --> 00:10:05,800
Speaker 1: says he was quote freaking out because he knew his

158
00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:10,880
Speaker 1: fingerprints were on the scene, specifically at the door, maybe

159
00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,960
Speaker 1: even at the window where he looked in and saw

160
00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,280
Speaker 1: what he thought was red wine all over the floor.

161
00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,440
Speaker 1: Vincent Hill, I would say that at the time that

162
00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,360
Speaker 1: very likely made him a suspect. Yeah, absolutely, Nancy. I

163
00:10:24,440 --> 00:10:27,000
Speaker 1: mean he's saying all the keywords. I called her. She

164
00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,439
Speaker 1: didn't answer. I didn't want to be the guy at

165
00:10:29,480 --> 00:10:32,160
Speaker 1: the door, at the windows so late. And by the way,

166
00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,960
Speaker 1: my fingerprints maybe at the crime scene. It reminds me

167
00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,800
Speaker 1: of Dolly Routier when she called ninety one one and said, hey,

168
00:10:39,640 --> 00:10:42,320
Speaker 1: I already touched a knife that was used to stab

169
00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:45,360
Speaker 1: my two sons. Did that? So Yes, Initially I believe

170
00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:48,560
Speaker 1: Ashton Kuscher was looked at as a suspect. Well, of

171
00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:52,440
Speaker 1: course he was, and he has to know that. Guys,

172
00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,959
Speaker 1: we are talking about Hollywood star, the star of the

173
00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:58,760
Speaker 1: seventies show and so many other hits. Ashton Kutcher in

174
00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:02,839
Speaker 1: a court of law, embroiled in a serial murder case.

175
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:09,200
Speaker 1: This young girl, Ashley Ellern, really everybody's sweetheart, found brutally

176
00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:14,480
Speaker 1: stab dead there in Hollywood, her killer somehow picking up

177
00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,520
Speaker 1: the moniker Hollywood ripper. And I know that's got to

178
00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:23,079
Speaker 1: cut to the heart of every crime victims family involved

179
00:11:23,120 --> 00:11:27,040
Speaker 1: in this case when they hear the words Hollywood ripper.

180
00:11:27,320 --> 00:11:30,680
Speaker 1: You know, Ashley Wilcot, that that moniker, the name for

181
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:38,199
Speaker 1: the killer, Michael Garjuelo, has really stuck, and it's it's

182
00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:41,560
Speaker 1: just flows off the tongue of reporters. But you know

183
00:11:41,679 --> 00:11:45,120
Speaker 1: when the family members of these young ladies all murdered

184
00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:48,680
Speaker 1: and attacked here that I mean, they have to think of,

185
00:11:49,120 --> 00:11:54,360
Speaker 1: for instance, Ashley Ellern literally being ripped apart with a knife. Yeah,

186
00:11:54,400 --> 00:11:57,160
Speaker 1: that's exactly I can't even imagine for these victims families

187
00:11:57,200 --> 00:11:58,719
Speaker 1: first of all, but second of all, the here a

188
00:11:58,800 --> 00:12:01,240
Speaker 1: moniker like that. But isn't it fitting? I mean, as

189
00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:03,480
Speaker 1: hopeful as it sounds, it does bit because he is

190
00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:06,160
Speaker 1: the ripper And look at again the force and the

191
00:12:06,280 --> 00:12:08,560
Speaker 1: number of times he stabbed and everything he did to

192
00:12:08,640 --> 00:12:12,280
Speaker 1: that victim. That title fits the person who would do

193
00:12:12,320 --> 00:12:14,560
Speaker 1: this type of crime. When I refer to him as

194
00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:19,559
Speaker 1: a serial killer, I firmly believe that Ashley Ellern, tragically

195
00:12:20,360 --> 00:12:26,120
Speaker 1: is not this guy. Michael Gargiulo's only victim listener, It's

196
00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,720
Speaker 1: our belief at around eleven forty in the evening. He

197
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:33,120
Speaker 1: gained access into this window, which was open a few inches,

198
00:12:34,280 --> 00:12:36,560
Speaker 1: and once he got inside there, he then opens the

199
00:12:36,600 --> 00:12:39,079
Speaker 1: front door and kind of stages it as an escape route,

200
00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:43,680
Speaker 1: proceeds into the bedroom where she's sleeping, and what awakes

201
00:12:43,679 --> 00:12:47,319
Speaker 1: her as a knife being plunged into her. He just

202
00:12:47,559 --> 00:12:51,400
Speaker 1: flat out stabbed her right She was stabbed multiple times

203
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:55,880
Speaker 1: in her chest and shoulder and right arm, suffered several

204
00:12:56,040 --> 00:12:58,120
Speaker 1: wounds to both of her hands as she's grabbing this

205
00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,560
Speaker 1: knife as being plunged down upon her where those wounds

206
00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:04,520
Speaker 1: were all required surgery. And at some point there's a

207
00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,640
Speaker 1: law in the action, so to speak. And she was

208
00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:09,600
Speaker 1: able to get her feet up and kick him off

209
00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:13,439
Speaker 1: of her, and that's where he then took off running

210
00:13:13,520 --> 00:13:15,880
Speaker 1: and left the location. Did he say anything to her ever,

211
00:13:16,920 --> 00:13:21,040
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, he said, I'm sorry. I'm sorry that young woman,

212
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:26,200
Speaker 1: Maria Bruno, She's not the only one. What about Trisha Pacci.

213
00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:30,440
Speaker 1: Tricia got home sometime after one am with keys in hand.

214
00:13:30,640 --> 00:13:32,520
Speaker 1: She went to the side of the house to let

215
00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:38,840
Speaker 1: herself in. She never made it. The next morning, Trisha's father,

216
00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:41,760
Speaker 1: Rick was going out to his van. I tried to

217
00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:48,000
Speaker 1: revive her. That is works really in your life when

218
00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:55,360
Speaker 1: you kid pull somebody. Trisha's mother, Diane, was at work

219
00:13:55,559 --> 00:13:57,280
Speaker 1: and I just left work and jumped in the car

220
00:13:57,320 --> 00:14:01,840
Speaker 1: and came home, and I don't remember anything else. She

221
00:14:02,080 --> 00:14:04,120
Speaker 1: had a lot of blood on her shirt or a blouse.

222
00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:08,720
Speaker 1: Raceleyevich was the first uniformed police officer on the scene.

223
00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:12,560
Speaker 1: I was guessing she was stabbed numerous names. When I

224
00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:15,360
Speaker 1: heard a lady screaming and I turned and look because

225
00:14:15,360 --> 00:14:16,959
Speaker 1: I was still in the front yard, and the mother

226
00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,480
Speaker 1: has running towards Trish. I basically tackled her and I

227
00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:22,800
Speaker 1: didn't want her to see Trish like this and remember

228
00:14:22,800 --> 00:14:26,280
Speaker 1: her daughter like that. While investigators were trying to secure

229
00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:31,680
Speaker 1: the scene, one young neighbor was paying close attention. Seventeen

230
00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,160
Speaker 1: year old Mike Garjiulo. You're hearing our friends at forty

231
00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:41,560
Speaker 1: eight hours. That was Maureen Mark. This guy, Michael Gargiulo,

232
00:14:42,240 --> 00:14:46,600
Speaker 1: is believed to have murdered at least ten women, including

233
00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 1: the two we just described, Maria Bruno and Trisha Pecaccio.

234
00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:55,400
Speaker 1: Back to special guests joining us, Marjorie Hernandez, Justice editor

235
00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:59,000
Speaker 1: at US Weekly and Radar Online dot Com. You have

236
00:14:59,120 --> 00:15:02,240
Speaker 1: been in the courtroom. Marjorie Hernandez described to all of

237
00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:08,920
Speaker 1: us what's happening in court. Mister Garzulo normally is very

238
00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:13,240
Speaker 1: involved and just watching the witnesses, and from time to

239
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:16,120
Speaker 1: time you would see mister Garzulo trying to speak to

240
00:15:16,200 --> 00:15:19,440
Speaker 1: his defense attorneys next to him. Tell us about Ashton

241
00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:23,560
Speaker 1: Kutner's testimony on the stand. Well, Ashton, I think his

242
00:15:23,920 --> 00:15:30,200
Speaker 1: testimony was very important and because he was trying to

243
00:15:30,600 --> 00:15:35,040
Speaker 1: prosecutors are trying to piece together a timeline of events

244
00:15:35,040 --> 00:15:39,160
Speaker 1: of what happened the night Ashley was killed on February

245
00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:42,160
Speaker 1: twenty first, and I think they did succeed in that

246
00:15:42,320 --> 00:15:45,800
Speaker 1: with mister Cutcher's testimony. You know, prosecutors have called the

247
00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:52,400
Speaker 1: murderers systematic slaughters of women, and they have described the defendant,

248
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,040
Speaker 1: Michael Garzuelo as the quote boy next door killer. Well,

249
00:15:57,080 --> 00:15:59,520
Speaker 1: that is certainly putting perfume on the pig when you

250
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:03,840
Speaker 1: think of a boy next door killer and ten bodies

251
00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 1: at the very least to Vincent Hill, why are they

252
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:12,320
Speaker 1: referring to him as the boy next door? Yeah, Nancy

253
00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,760
Speaker 1: reminds me of Ted Bundy. He just had this charming look.

254
00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 1: This guy not that I'm into guys. Is a very

255
00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:25,240
Speaker 1: charming looking guy. He's very trusting and also nancy. He

256
00:16:25,360 --> 00:16:28,640
Speaker 1: had a position where people would kind of trust. He

257
00:16:29,120 --> 00:16:32,120
Speaker 1: was this air conditioned repair guy. So you know, who's

258
00:16:32,160 --> 00:16:34,320
Speaker 1: not going to trust the air conditioned repair guy to

259
00:16:34,360 --> 00:16:37,600
Speaker 1: come into your home and fix things. But that makes

260
00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:40,000
Speaker 1: him a prime suspect to be able to watch people,

261
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:43,600
Speaker 1: know when people are going to be home when he constructs.

262
00:16:43,640 --> 00:16:45,840
Speaker 1: Take listen to our friend here finished him at CBS

263
00:16:45,840 --> 00:16:53,640
Speaker 1: two LA methodical and systematic slaughter of women. Now gard Julo.

264
00:16:53,680 --> 00:16:56,560
Speaker 1: They're sitting in the courtroom. At times he rubbed his

265
00:16:56,640 --> 00:16:59,800
Speaker 1: hands together. Prosecutors say he grew up in suburban Chicago,

266
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:02,640
Speaker 1: laid on his high school football team, and later worked

267
00:17:02,680 --> 00:17:05,680
Speaker 1: as an acy repairman and a plumber. They also say

268
00:17:05,760 --> 00:17:08,480
Speaker 1: he was a husband and a father. The allege what

269
00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:11,160
Speaker 1: nobody knew is that he was leading a double life.

270
00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,880
Speaker 1: His investigators are calling Garjulo a serial sexual thrill killer

271
00:17:15,920 --> 00:17:19,040
Speaker 1: who allegedly stabbed and butchered his victims. He's charged with

272
00:17:19,040 --> 00:17:22,080
Speaker 1: both murder and attempted murder in four different attacks, and

273
00:17:22,160 --> 00:17:24,600
Speaker 1: all the cases they say the m was the same.

274
00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:29,760
Speaker 1: Gardjulo's plan to kill was to first identify a target

275
00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,760
Speaker 1: who lived near him, acquaint himself with that victim and

276
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:40,320
Speaker 1: her habits and routines, and then watch shadow stock and

277
00:17:40,520 --> 00:17:43,520
Speaker 1: hunt down the victims relentlessly as part of his plan

278
00:17:43,640 --> 00:17:46,560
Speaker 1: to kill. The trial goes on, and we will bring

279
00:17:46,560 --> 00:17:58,760
Speaker 1: you the very latest from inside the courtroom Crime Stories

280
00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:05,960
Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Aaron Jackson Jr. Was among the youngest,

281
00:18:06,119 --> 00:18:11,720
Speaker 1: only nine years old. Luby Jeter was fourteen, Timothy Hill thirteen,

282
00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:16,480
Speaker 1: Patrick Baltazar eleven. For almost two years, the bodies have

283
00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 1: kept coming out of Atlanta's rivers and woods and a

284
00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:22,520
Speaker 1: week after week police speak of sorrow and sympathy, but

285
00:18:22,720 --> 00:18:27,359
Speaker 1: not a solution. He's just a tragedy harbor nightmare that

286
00:18:27,480 --> 00:18:30,719
Speaker 1: we're going through. We're not in a position today to

287
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:33,520
Speaker 1: make an arrest. There are cases in history that have

288
00:18:33,680 --> 00:18:37,399
Speaker 1: gone on much longer than this has. At Police Task

289
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,480
Speaker 1: Force Headquarters, there are twenty seven faces on the wall,

290
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,480
Speaker 1: twenty six murdered, one missing the killer. There was a

291
00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,399
Speaker 1: handful of sketches. No one the same, No one's certain

292
00:18:47,440 --> 00:18:51,280
Speaker 1: to be the person. Police can't answer food or why

293
00:18:51,480 --> 00:18:54,600
Speaker 1: you're hearing from our friend James polk At NBC News.

294
00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,919
Speaker 1: In the last days, we learned that the Atlantic child

295
00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:05,040
Speaker 1: murderers investigation is set to be reopen. Here's Kristin Holloway

296
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,959
Speaker 1: at WSBTV. The community was in a state of panic

297
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,200
Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy nine to nineteen eighty one after someone

298
00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,200
Speaker 1: murdered more than twenty children one by one. Mayor Keisha

299
00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:18,360
Speaker 1: Land's Bottoms and police Chief Erica Shields, and I'll say

300
00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:20,960
Speaker 1: a new push to re examine evidence in the case.

301
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,000
Speaker 1: But I think it's important that the families know that

302
00:19:24,080 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 1: we continue to remember these children and we continue to

303
00:19:28,040 --> 00:19:32,280
Speaker 1: do all we can do to provide them closure. Wayne

304
00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:35,160
Speaker 1: Williams is convicted of killing two men in nineteen eighty one,

305
00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:38,919
Speaker 1: but authorities believe he's responsible for some of the infamous

306
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:43,080
Speaker 1: child murderers. His attorney, land Whiteley said Friday, and not

307
00:19:43,160 --> 00:19:47,320
Speaker 1: so fast there. The city is going in the GBI

308
00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:52,720
Speaker 1: are going to retest any evidence. They need a third party.

309
00:19:53,000 --> 00:19:56,600
Speaker 1: The hens are not clean. I'm convinced this case is

310
00:19:57,040 --> 00:20:01,240
Speaker 1: based on political leading. Mayor Bottoms she wants the victims

311
00:20:01,280 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 1: families to know the city hasn't forgotten about them, that

312
00:20:04,880 --> 00:20:09,960
Speaker 1: these children still matter, and they matter. In nineteen seventy

313
00:20:10,000 --> 00:20:12,719
Speaker 1: nine through nineteen eighty one, and they still matter to

314
00:20:12,800 --> 00:20:16,080
Speaker 1: us in twenty nineteen, straight out to Crime online dot Com.

315
00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 1: Investigative reporter joining us, Lee Egan crime online dot Com

316
00:20:20,840 --> 00:20:23,760
Speaker 1: where you can find this and all other breaking crime

317
00:20:23,760 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 1: injustice news. Lee Egan. Let's start at the beginning. How

318
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:33,840
Speaker 1: many people were victims in the Atlanta child murdyers at

319
00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:39,240
Speaker 1: least twenty five that were connected to possibly the same person,

320
00:20:39,800 --> 00:20:42,680
Speaker 1: although during that time in Atlanta, in the Atlanta area

321
00:20:42,760 --> 00:20:48,080
Speaker 1: metro area, there were over one hundred victims, but connected

322
00:20:48,160 --> 00:20:51,280
Speaker 1: to someone that they can think is a serial killer

323
00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:55,760
Speaker 1: targeting young children. At least twenty five were connected. You know,

324
00:20:56,040 --> 00:20:59,359
Speaker 1: I want to talk about DNA because the case is

325
00:20:59,400 --> 00:21:03,040
Speaker 1: being re open now. Many people believe that a total

326
00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:08,560
Speaker 1: of twenty nine young children and young adults were murdered

327
00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:13,240
Speaker 1: by one man, Wayne Williams. And this was a significant

328
00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:17,399
Speaker 1: advancement in criminal justice because that was one of the

329
00:21:17,600 --> 00:21:22,360
Speaker 1: very first cases that used fiber evidence. Fibers found on

330
00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:27,000
Speaker 1: the bodies of the many many victims matched fiber evidence

331
00:21:27,160 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: from for instance, Wayne Williams carpet in his home, Wayne

332
00:21:30,800 --> 00:21:34,040
Speaker 1: Williams carpet in his car. Take a listen to atlantamir

333
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:37,040
Speaker 1: Kesha Lance at Bottoms. A lot has changed in our

334
00:21:37,080 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 1: worlds since nineteen eighty one when there was a conviction

335
00:21:41,960 --> 00:21:45,639
Speaker 1: for two of these murders, the conviction of Wayne Williams.

336
00:21:46,480 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 1: What has changed is that we now know that DNA

337
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:55,840
Speaker 1: technology is much more advanced it did not exist in

338
00:21:55,960 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 1: nineteen eighty one, that it would certainly be in order

339
00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:04,640
Speaker 1: for us to now look once again at evidence that

340
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,520
Speaker 1: the City of Atlanta has in its possession, evidence that

341
00:22:08,680 --> 00:22:12,440
Speaker 1: the GBI has in its possession, to once again take

342
00:22:12,480 --> 00:22:17,399
Speaker 1: a fresh look at these cases and to determine once

343
00:22:17,440 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 1: and for all if there's additional evidence that may be

344
00:22:20,760 --> 00:22:27,080
Speaker 1: tested that may give some peace, to the extent that

345
00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:30,159
Speaker 1: peace can be had in a situation like this. I

346
00:22:30,200 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 1: want to go to doctor William Maroney, joining US Deputy

347
00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: Medical Examiner, Bay County, Michigan, author of America Narcan on

348
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:43,640
Speaker 1: Amazon Limited. Question, Doctor Moroney, how do you find fibers

349
00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 1: on a dead body? And many of these bodies had

350
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:52,159
Speaker 1: been in the water. Every time you go through fiber analysis,

351
00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 1: it means the body has been checked from head to

352
00:22:56,080 --> 00:23:03,159
Speaker 1: toe and that includes your canals, finger, nails, toenails, and

353
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 1: oftentimes We undress and wash the bodies right before autopsy,

354
00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:18,000
Speaker 1: so we're able to see all the clothes. We fold them,

355
00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:23,080
Speaker 1: we go through them, we photograph them, and then the

356
00:23:23,160 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 1: photographs themselves are part of the analysis. And if somebody's

357
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:31,520
Speaker 1: wearing dark clothes and there's light orange or red or

358
00:23:31,600 --> 00:23:35,280
Speaker 1: yellow fibers and somebody says, oh, this looks like rope

359
00:23:35,400 --> 00:23:38,040
Speaker 1: from a nautical shop or a boat, you know, we

360
00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,000
Speaker 1: take a look at that. Or there's really dark fibers

361
00:23:42,000 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: and somebody's wearing a lot of white. Those fibers are

362
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:47,800
Speaker 1: saved and sent off and tested to see if they're

363
00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 1: natural synthetic, and if they're important and they're matched to

364
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 1: any of the wounds or bruises on the body. Those

365
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:02,320
Speaker 1: those that is how we find them, and that is

366
00:24:02,320 --> 00:24:05,439
Speaker 1: what we use them for too. Joseph's got Morgan joining me,

367
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 1: forensics expert, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State University and author of

368
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:14,040
Speaker 1: Blood Beneath My Feet on Amazon. Joe got question, Explain

369
00:24:14,119 --> 00:24:17,439
Speaker 1: to me about the transfronts of fiber and how you

370
00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:21,000
Speaker 1: end up matching up to get a positive match on

371
00:24:21,119 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: fiber evidence alone, and what does it mean you know

372
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:28,159
Speaker 1: fiber evidence in the last few years has become very controversial, Nancy.

373
00:24:28,359 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, some people won't even include

374
00:24:30,640 --> 00:24:34,520
Speaker 1: it any longer. But this was a game changer back

375
00:24:34,560 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 1: at that particular time in forensic evidence, and one of

376
00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:40,920
Speaker 1: the things that will carefully do is to conduct what

377
00:24:41,040 --> 00:24:43,719
Speaker 1: or refer to as tape lifts off of the body

378
00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:47,479
Speaker 1: also at the scene, to do comparison any kind of

379
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: items that may have come in contact with any source

380
00:24:50,880 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: of fiber, such as a weapon that might be crusted

381
00:24:54,600 --> 00:24:58,200
Speaker 1: with blood, the interior cars, obviously the body, as doctor

382
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:01,960
Speaker 1: Moroney had mentioned just a moment ago, the clothing associated

383
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 1: with the body, to do a comparison analysis, you know,

384
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: synthetic fibers like you know, we're so they kind of

385
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,800
Speaker 1: burst on the scene. With the Wayne Williams case, that

386
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,199
Speaker 1: carpet that was found in his car and in his

387
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 1: home was a very short run carpet that had been

388
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: actually generated right up the road in Dalton, Georgia, and

389
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,560
Speaker 1: it was very unique. So you're looking for a unique

390
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,679
Speaker 1: pattern that has connectivity back to the scene, back to

391
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: the body, and back to the back to the perpetrator.

392
00:25:34,040 --> 00:25:35,919
Speaker 1: It's kind of a triangle if you think about it.

393
00:25:35,960 --> 00:25:40,000
Speaker 1: But Joe Scott. How are the cases similar? Why were

394
00:25:40,000 --> 00:25:42,240
Speaker 1: they grouped together to start with? And I'll tell you

395
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,560
Speaker 1: what I think is the problem. I believe Wayne Williams

396
00:25:45,640 --> 00:25:53,399
Speaker 1: killed many, many of these children. But when he was convicted, see,

397
00:25:53,600 --> 00:25:57,920
Speaker 1: they closed the cases on like twenty two other crimes,

398
00:25:57,960 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 1: going oh yeah he did those two. I'd like to

399
00:26:00,640 --> 00:26:04,680
Speaker 1: see modern DNA technology used on those. But first tell

400
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 1: me the m that linked all these twenty nine together. Well,

401
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: I think that the first point of reference that we

402
00:26:11,240 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: have to go to, Nancy is going to be the

403
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:17,440
Speaker 1: race of the children and their age grouping. It's it's

404
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:21,159
Speaker 1: really you know, I think the public has been rocked

405
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 1: or rocked into this idea that these are all children.

406
00:26:24,160 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: These are not all children. Okay, as a matter of fact,

407
00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 1: two that I think that Wayne Williams was convicted of

408
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:35,400
Speaker 1: were in no way children. But there they have connectivity

409
00:26:35,560 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 1: relative to racial grouping and locale where where these kids

410
00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: went missing. They're one of the first housing projects in

411
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,639
Speaker 1: the nation that sprung up after War two was a

412
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 1: techwood housing development that you're well aware of that's no

413
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:55,119
Speaker 1: longer there. The Olympic Village took the took the place

414
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 1: of it. A lot of these kids disappeared out of

415
00:26:57,400 --> 00:27:00,280
Speaker 1: that area, and a few of these bodies were umped

416
00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 1: over in the adjacent county of Dacapp County, and many

417
00:27:03,119 --> 00:27:07,119
Speaker 1: of these bodies were found in water areas associated with

418
00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:10,480
Speaker 1: the Chattahoochee River. Matter of fact, I know one of

419
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,800
Speaker 1: the investigators that was present when the first body was

420
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:18,200
Speaker 1: discovered in a wooded area, So there's connectivity with this

421
00:27:18,359 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: to a certain degree. But I think a lot of

422
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:24,240
Speaker 1: these can be placed at the feet of him, but

423
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:37,520
Speaker 1: not every one of them. Crime stories with Nancy Grace,

424
00:27:40,320 --> 00:27:42,560
Speaker 1: where we are in the investigation right now as we

425
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:44,879
Speaker 1: do not know the person and our persons that are responsible.

426
00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 1: Therefore we do not have the money. The keller seems

427
00:27:47,480 --> 00:27:51,160
Speaker 1: to talk police and read pressed clippings. After a world

428
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: publicized but feuderal surge along a road in an outlying county,

429
00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 1: the next child strangled with a rope was dumped there.

430
00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:02,840
Speaker 1: I want. A suburban police official criticized Atlanta's investigation. A

431
00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: child choked to death was left just inside that official's

432
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:10,000
Speaker 1: county line. After a press report the police had found

433
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:12,840
Speaker 1: fibers on some of the bodies. Six of the last

434
00:28:12,880 --> 00:28:16,520
Speaker 1: seven victims have been dropped into rivers all stripped to

435
00:28:16,560 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: their undershorts or less, possibly to wash away evidence. You're

436
00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:23,960
Speaker 1: hearing from our friend James Polk at NBC News. In

437
00:28:24,000 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 1: the last days we learned that the Atlantic child murderers

438
00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:35,720
Speaker 1: investigation is set to be reopened. Doctor William Moroney, author

439
00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,800
Speaker 1: of American Narcian Medical Examiner, Doctor Moroney, what about the

440
00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,240
Speaker 1: cause of death the m O how are they similar

441
00:28:42,520 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: one to the other? Well, if you look at the

442
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: type of suffocation, scranulation or blunt force injuries, they'll always

443
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:58,360
Speaker 1: show some kind of handedness that somebody that did this

444
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:01,800
Speaker 1: was more than likely right handed, and it was right

445
00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:06,360
Speaker 1: handed each time. Or if there's a sequence of injuries

446
00:29:06,880 --> 00:29:10,560
Speaker 1: like a beating and then a strangulation, you can tell

447
00:29:11,640 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: that a beating is first because it causes bruises and strangulation.

448
00:29:18,560 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: If that's first, then you don't have blood flow and

449
00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:24,239
Speaker 1: you don't have the bruises. So is that one of

450
00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:28,560
Speaker 1: the motus aperandi that continues to follow in each of

451
00:29:28,600 --> 00:29:33,280
Speaker 1: the areas two? Ask You Wilcott, judge lawyer. You can

452
00:29:33,320 --> 00:29:36,520
Speaker 1: find her at ask you Wilcott dot com. Ashley, I

453
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: believe the case is for which Wayne Williams was convicted.

454
00:29:40,960 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: I believe thoroughly in my heart and mind he did it.

455
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,160
Speaker 1: Now here's my issue. I don't like it when they

456
00:29:48,160 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 1: say we're reopening the Wayne Williams case. But what they

457
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:54,800
Speaker 1: did when they closed his case, when they got these

458
00:29:55,280 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: two convictions in the deaths of two of the victims,

459
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: they closed about twenty two weather cases. They blamed it

460
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,840
Speaker 1: on Williams and they never formally charged him. Now, are

461
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 1: those Wayne Williams victims very possibly, yes, But if there's

462
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: new DNA technology, I'm all for trying it on him.

463
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:19,080
Speaker 1: They agree with you, it's the right thing to do

464
00:30:19,320 --> 00:30:21,880
Speaker 1: to reopen the case. Now, to me, it's not reopening

465
00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:24,280
Speaker 1: the case on Wayne Williams. It's reopening the case for

466
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 1: these children right there, the victims. It's reopening the case

467
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 1: on these children because, bottom line, it's never been proven.

468
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 1: There's never been a conviction, there's never been a guilty

469
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:39,360
Speaker 1: plea for who killed those children. So those are unanswered questions,

470
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:43,800
Speaker 1: and frankly, the families of those children deserve those answers,

471
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: especially with new technology. Listen, one investigator says, even if

472
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,080
Speaker 1: the killer walked in the door and confessed, there is

473
00:30:52,240 --> 00:30:55,800
Speaker 1: not enough evidence now to convict him. A half dozen

474
00:30:55,840 --> 00:30:59,960
Speaker 1: of the cases maybe isolated, unrelated homicides. The victims found

475
00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 1: near home, killed perhaps by family or friends. But somewhere

476
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: in the city of Atlanta, there is a person who

477
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: has killed fifteen or twenty boys and young men. The

478
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,080
Speaker 1: district attorney keeps a chart on the wall with names

479
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 1: of the dead and room for more. With my fairy,

480
00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:21,720
Speaker 1: the person is not abducted, not kidnap, not snatched off

481
00:31:21,760 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 1: the street at that particular time, but is willingly going

482
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:28,479
Speaker 1: with somebody for something, at least at the instance they

483
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 1: get in the car. They're going to make some money,

484
00:31:31,800 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: They're going to meet somebody. They're going starting off willingly.

485
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,160
Speaker 1: You know, Doctor Kieran start joining me psychologists out of

486
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:41,560
Speaker 1: New York. You can find her at kerinstart dot com.

487
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: I agree, although some parents may feel that it's just

488
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: opening up old wounds, others may say, hey, you know what,

489
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 1: let's just try the DNA and see what happens. I

490
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:55,320
Speaker 1: think it's really important, Nancy, to know who who exactly

491
00:31:55,360 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 1: the killer was. And I think that for any kind

492
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: of peace of mind, which we all know that never

493
00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 1: really happens when you've lost somebody didn't forget about being

494
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:10,680
Speaker 1: murdered children the horrific part of the story. I think

495
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,600
Speaker 1: that they need to know exactly who the killer was

496
00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:17,560
Speaker 1: that it will make a difference absolutely and chew Lee Egan,

497
00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 1: Crime online dot Com investigative reporter. What happened was that

498
00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:27,040
Speaker 1: many people claim, and I do not believe this myself,

499
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,560
Speaker 1: that there was a cover up of some sort. It

500
00:32:31,640 --> 00:32:35,520
Speaker 1: was mostly led by Wayne Williams himself and his followers.

501
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,360
Speaker 1: He always claimed he's innocent and that Atlanta officials wanted

502
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:42,880
Speaker 1: to cover up evidence of a ku Klux Klan role

503
00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:49,040
Speaker 1: and the killings to avoid a race war. I'm not

504
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: buying it, not buying a race war or a big

505
00:32:53,600 --> 00:32:57,959
Speaker 1: cover up because, frankly, same reason. I don't think that

506
00:32:57,960 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: there was a cover up in the O. J. Simpson

507
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: case or conspiracy. I don't think people are smart enough

508
00:33:02,600 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: to keep a conspiracy quiet for all those years. Well, Nancy,

509
00:33:06,720 --> 00:33:10,360
Speaker 1: the thing is also there was a member of the KKK.

510
00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 1: He didn't specifically take responsibility for these killings, but he

511
00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,239
Speaker 1: made it seem as if they were involved, and he

512
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 1: was happy about what happened, so he kind of led

513
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:27,480
Speaker 1: into that conspiracy theory and kept it going. So one

514
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:32,240
Speaker 1: freak says he was happy about the killings, and we're

515
00:33:32,240 --> 00:33:34,600
Speaker 1: going to reopen the case. I don't think that's enough

516
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: to reopen the case. But if there's new and advanced

517
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:41,400
Speaker 1: DNA technology that can put some parents' hearts and minds

518
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:46,160
Speaker 1: at rest, I'm all for it. Children were dying on

519
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: the streets of Atlanta in the daytime. What we had

520
00:33:50,760 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: here was a predator and what he was looking for

521
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 1: was somebody who was cut off and hurt. And if

522
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: you don't realize you're in trouble until you're in trouble,

523
00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 1: then you have in a way of getting out. It

524
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 1: would be another year before Geoffrey Mathis's body was found

525
00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: in the woods, miles from his home. Nancy Grace's crime

526
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: Story signing off good Bye friend,