1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:20,676 Speaker 1: Pushkin hold. 2 00:00:20,756 --> 00:00:25,756 Speaker 2: Let's take a little bite here. One morning not long ago, 3 00:00:26,116 --> 00:00:28,596 Speaker 2: my colleague bend ADF. Haffrey and I huddled in a 4 00:00:28,636 --> 00:00:32,276 Speaker 2: small back room at Pushkin Industries to solve a mystery. 5 00:00:33,276 --> 00:00:35,356 Speaker 1: It like hits the back of your palette. There's like 6 00:00:35,396 --> 00:00:37,196 Speaker 1: aunt funk to it, you know what I mean. 7 00:00:38,116 --> 00:00:40,076 Speaker 2: Through the glass wall of the room, we could see 8 00:00:40,076 --> 00:00:44,476 Speaker 2: our fellow Pushkin nights working on various prosaic podcasts and 9 00:00:44,516 --> 00:00:50,676 Speaker 2: audiobooks while we alone wrestled with an eternal question involving 10 00:00:51,956 --> 00:00:56,836 Speaker 2: toasted bread. Just from a sensory perspective, there's a lot 11 00:00:56,876 --> 00:01:01,476 Speaker 2: of crunch letten. Also, not forget its size. Yes, because 12 00:01:01,476 --> 00:01:05,436 Speaker 2: it's palm, it's palmable. Breakfast is the meal you make 13 00:01:05,476 --> 00:01:08,796 Speaker 2: when you're barely conscious, So the breakfast table is a 14 00:01:08,836 --> 00:01:12,476 Speaker 2: super bowl for food companies. Lunch is eating out, Dinner, 15 00:01:12,516 --> 00:01:15,876 Speaker 2: if you're lucky, is prepared from scratch. But think about breakfast. 16 00:01:16,436 --> 00:01:19,316 Speaker 2: All the day lies before you and you are in 17 00:01:19,356 --> 00:01:23,756 Speaker 2: need of sustenance. You want something wholesome but crucially easy. 18 00:01:24,276 --> 00:01:29,036 Speaker 2: A little ready made breakfast foods become lifelong habits. Brands 19 00:01:29,076 --> 00:01:31,996 Speaker 2: fight tooth and nail for a prime spot at that table. 20 00:01:32,436 --> 00:01:37,996 Speaker 2: Many have fought valiantly. Cherios, lucky charms, pop tarts, rice crispies. 21 00:01:38,876 --> 00:01:42,836 Speaker 2: But there's only one breakfast item legendary enough that when 22 00:01:43,316 --> 00:01:47,476 Speaker 2: I take a bite, suddenly I remember my childhood. Also, 23 00:01:47,996 --> 00:01:50,636 Speaker 2: how my father felt about cutting the cross off bread. 24 00:01:52,716 --> 00:01:54,756 Speaker 2: He I think he viewed that as a kind of 25 00:01:54,916 --> 00:01:57,196 Speaker 2: a sign of as it a kind of an a feat move, 26 00:01:58,556 --> 00:02:03,396 Speaker 2: a side of moral weakness, moral instead of a lack 27 00:02:03,436 --> 00:02:05,396 Speaker 2: of real kind of fiber when it came to eating 28 00:02:05,396 --> 00:02:08,276 Speaker 2: your food. Or Ben takes a bite and suddenly he's 29 00:02:08,316 --> 00:02:10,916 Speaker 2: off for the million time about proost. 30 00:02:11,556 --> 00:02:14,636 Speaker 1: It does have that kind of like Pristian association thing, 31 00:02:14,676 --> 00:02:18,836 Speaker 1: Like it tastes like this, I remember this taste. Yes, 32 00:02:18,876 --> 00:02:21,396 Speaker 1: when I have this like it does take me back, 33 00:02:21,436 --> 00:02:25,316 Speaker 1: like I am seeing my family's kitchen where we would 34 00:02:25,316 --> 00:02:27,436 Speaker 1: eat breakfast, and like the big spread. 35 00:02:28,316 --> 00:02:31,996 Speaker 2: Our breakfast mystery comes in packages of six, but they 36 00:02:32,076 --> 00:02:35,236 Speaker 2: cannot be eaten right out of the box. Each item 37 00:02:35,276 --> 00:02:39,196 Speaker 2: inside must be split in two, then toasted, then buttered 38 00:02:39,236 --> 00:02:42,316 Speaker 2: for the magic to work. And oh, the magic works. 39 00:02:43,196 --> 00:02:48,276 Speaker 2: I'm talking, of course, about Thomas's English muffins, the most 40 00:02:48,516 --> 00:02:51,876 Speaker 2: iconic breakfast bread of all time. 41 00:02:54,276 --> 00:02:57,876 Speaker 1: And for that reason it is nearly a half a 42 00:02:57,956 --> 00:03:00,996 Speaker 1: billion dollars a year in sales product. It is the 43 00:03:01,036 --> 00:03:06,716 Speaker 1: cinequonn of bread products, baked goods. Yeah, the champ undisputed. 44 00:03:08,076 --> 00:03:10,756 Speaker 2: What sets that thomas Is English muffin apart from all 45 00:03:10,756 --> 00:03:15,276 Speaker 2: the others. It says right there on the package Knooks 46 00:03:15,956 --> 00:03:19,916 Speaker 2: and Cranny's. The recipe for Thomas's English muffin has been 47 00:03:20,036 --> 00:03:22,476 Speaker 2: one of the most closely held trade secrets there is, 48 00:03:23,556 --> 00:03:28,836 Speaker 2: until allegedly one baking executive tried to make off with 49 00:03:28,876 --> 00:03:34,956 Speaker 2: the family jewels. I'm Malcolm Gladwell. You're listening to Revisionist History, 50 00:03:35,196 --> 00:03:39,156 Speaker 2: my show about things overlooked and misunderstood. Today on the show, 51 00:03:39,396 --> 00:03:42,476 Speaker 2: Ben and Alf Haffrey peers into the nooks and crannies 52 00:03:42,756 --> 00:03:45,476 Speaker 2: of one of the greatest legal cases you've never heard of. 53 00:03:46,396 --> 00:03:50,316 Speaker 2: It's a big story, this muffin case. Today you're getting 54 00:03:50,356 --> 00:03:51,676 Speaker 2: part one. 55 00:03:55,436 --> 00:03:58,756 Speaker 1: Here's Ben. I once hired a lawyer who dreams about 56 00:03:58,836 --> 00:04:01,436 Speaker 1: suing people. He told me this on a call once. 57 00:04:01,756 --> 00:04:04,116 Speaker 1: I asked for proof, and he showed me a video 58 00:04:04,156 --> 00:04:08,396 Speaker 1: of himself asleep, very clearly muttering I'll sue you, and 59 00:04:08,476 --> 00:04:10,956 Speaker 1: something to the effect of you're going to jail. There 60 00:04:10,996 --> 00:04:13,676 Speaker 1: were some swears in there too. My first thought was 61 00:04:14,196 --> 00:04:17,356 Speaker 1: this man is the best lawyer I'll ever have. Second thought, 62 00:04:17,876 --> 00:04:20,556 Speaker 1: I better pay him quickly. We were going over an 63 00:04:20,596 --> 00:04:24,076 Speaker 1: employment contract. We got to the part about intellectual property, 64 00:04:24,516 --> 00:04:26,596 Speaker 1: and I thought the degree to which an employer could 65 00:04:26,596 --> 00:04:28,596 Speaker 1: punish you if you ever divulged one of their trade 66 00:04:28,636 --> 00:04:33,276 Speaker 1: secrets seemed a little crazy, to which my lawyer replied, well, 67 00:04:33,436 --> 00:04:36,916 Speaker 1: it's took some crannies. And even recognizing I was paying 68 00:04:36,956 --> 00:04:41,636 Speaker 1: by the second, I was like, what did you just say? 69 00:04:41,956 --> 00:04:44,236 Speaker 3: Why have so many of you switched from toast at 70 00:04:44,276 --> 00:04:47,836 Speaker 3: Thomas's English muffins? Definitely the cranny. 71 00:04:47,876 --> 00:04:51,636 Speaker 1: It was the nooks. The key to English muffins supremacy 72 00:04:51,756 --> 00:04:54,396 Speaker 1: comes down to the balance of nooks which catch and 73 00:04:54,436 --> 00:04:57,356 Speaker 1: pool the melted butter and the thin, crisp walls of 74 00:04:57,396 --> 00:05:01,476 Speaker 1: the crannies. But somehow nooks and crannies are now lawyer 75 00:05:01,556 --> 00:05:03,476 Speaker 1: shorthand for trade secret. 76 00:05:04,236 --> 00:05:09,116 Speaker 3: Why Thomas's the nooks and Cranny's muffin making breakfast better? 77 00:05:09,316 --> 00:05:15,196 Speaker 1: For over one hundred years. In eighteen seventy four, a 78 00:05:15,236 --> 00:05:18,956 Speaker 1: baker named Samuel bath Thomas left England for the United States. 79 00:05:19,836 --> 00:05:22,596 Speaker 1: Little's known about his life before he lands in New York, 80 00:05:22,716 --> 00:05:25,396 Speaker 1: but he arrived with the recipe in his pocket for 81 00:05:25,516 --> 00:05:29,276 Speaker 1: what typically would be called Welsh muffins or crumpets. He 82 00:05:29,356 --> 00:05:31,836 Speaker 1: cooked them on a griddle so they'd be crisp on 83 00:05:31,916 --> 00:05:35,636 Speaker 1: the outside and dowe yet pockmarked in the inside in 84 00:05:35,676 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 1: a way few other breads were Thomas's. Nooks and Crannies 85 00:05:39,556 --> 00:05:44,396 Speaker 1: took New York by storm, demands skyrocketed. He opened another bakery, 86 00:05:44,756 --> 00:05:48,836 Speaker 1: then it became a corporation. Eventually the words Nooks and 87 00:05:48,876 --> 00:05:53,676 Speaker 1: Crannies became a registered trademark of Thomas's English muffins. You 88 00:05:53,716 --> 00:05:55,636 Speaker 1: will note, if you look at the bakery shelves at 89 00:05:55,676 --> 00:05:58,836 Speaker 1: your local grocery store, that other English muffin brands live 90 00:05:58,916 --> 00:06:02,076 Speaker 1: in fear of this fact. Dave's Killer Bread boasts of 91 00:06:02,116 --> 00:06:07,236 Speaker 1: butter catching flavor craters, Trader Joe's has pockets and crevices. 92 00:06:07,796 --> 00:06:10,476 Speaker 1: Bays has raised the white flag and left the field 93 00:06:10,636 --> 00:06:15,476 Speaker 1: entirely with a claim about packaging now resealable, because all 94 00:06:15,476 --> 00:06:18,396 Speaker 1: of them know better than to cross the entity that 95 00:06:18,596 --> 00:06:24,036 Speaker 1: now owns Thomas's group. O Bimbo, did you know that 96 00:06:24,076 --> 00:06:26,036 Speaker 1: your bread is owned by Mexico. 97 00:06:26,356 --> 00:06:29,596 Speaker 4: CNBC's Michelle Ruzcoberra caught up with the nation's largest bakery, 98 00:06:29,636 --> 00:06:30,396 Speaker 4: GROUPO Bimbo. 99 00:06:31,076 --> 00:06:33,756 Speaker 1: GROUPO Bimbo International Baking. 100 00:06:33,476 --> 00:06:38,876 Speaker 5: Conglomerate Entemens owned by a Mexican bread company, Sarah Lee 101 00:06:39,316 --> 00:06:41,276 Speaker 5: bought by a Mexican bread company. Group of Bimbo is 102 00:06:41,356 --> 00:06:42,556 Speaker 5: just the biggest baker in the United States. 103 00:06:42,596 --> 00:06:45,036 Speaker 2: It is the biggest baker in the entire world. 104 00:06:46,276 --> 00:06:49,996 Speaker 1: Bimbo is everywhere. They've taken over half the bread brands 105 00:06:50,036 --> 00:06:52,756 Speaker 1: you've heard of in fifty percent of the rest. They've 106 00:06:52,796 --> 00:06:55,916 Speaker 1: swept through the US, acquiring one bakery after another. 107 00:06:56,636 --> 00:06:59,316 Speaker 5: It's the first bakery with a big national footprint, and 108 00:06:59,356 --> 00:07:00,396 Speaker 5: they plan to be global. 109 00:07:01,476 --> 00:07:04,316 Speaker 1: No one stands in the way of GROUPO Bimbo. And 110 00:07:04,396 --> 00:07:06,836 Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine, at the height of their powers, 111 00:07:07,276 --> 00:07:11,276 Speaker 1: they acquired the holy Grail of baked goods, the Nooks 112 00:07:11,316 --> 00:07:12,276 Speaker 1: and Crannies. 113 00:07:12,396 --> 00:07:15,436 Speaker 5: Thomas's English Muffins, owned by a Mexican bread company. 114 00:07:16,356 --> 00:07:19,196 Speaker 1: The secret recipe for Nooks and Crannies brought in about 115 00:07:19,236 --> 00:07:22,116 Speaker 1: half a billion dollars in annual revenue to Group of Bimbo. 116 00:07:22,876 --> 00:07:26,996 Speaker 1: But then, according to Bimbo, someone tried to steal it. 117 00:07:29,996 --> 00:07:33,196 Speaker 1: Can you just tell me the the basic facts of 118 00:07:33,236 --> 00:07:33,676 Speaker 1: the case. 119 00:07:34,276 --> 00:07:37,316 Speaker 5: Well, in this case, I guess we can go through it. 120 00:07:37,676 --> 00:07:40,836 Speaker 1: I'm speaking with Louis del Judice, partner at the major 121 00:07:40,916 --> 00:07:45,236 Speaker 1: law firm Troutman Pepperlock, in a conference room high above Manhattan. 122 00:07:45,956 --> 00:07:48,236 Speaker 1: This is where my lawyer sent me when I asked 123 00:07:48,236 --> 00:07:52,156 Speaker 1: about cranny law. Louis is an expert in intellectual property. 124 00:07:52,636 --> 00:07:54,476 Speaker 1: He says a lot of people come to him to 125 00:07:54,556 --> 00:07:57,356 Speaker 1: determine if they have their own trade secrets, and he 126 00:07:57,436 --> 00:08:00,676 Speaker 1: tells them, sit down, my friends, and let me teach 127 00:08:00,716 --> 00:08:02,756 Speaker 1: you the lessons of the muffin. 128 00:08:03,396 --> 00:08:05,476 Speaker 5: Do you know with one of the best kept trade secrets? 129 00:08:05,476 --> 00:08:08,116 Speaker 5: And everybody thinks coke, And I'm like, well, Thomas is 130 00:08:08,156 --> 00:08:10,636 Speaker 5: English muffins, which we've all grown up on. There's only 131 00:08:10,716 --> 00:08:12,596 Speaker 5: ten people in the world that know how to make it. 132 00:08:12,676 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 5: Thomas's English muffin. 133 00:08:13,756 --> 00:08:17,476 Speaker 1: And people go, what, Actually it's fewer than ten. But 134 00:08:17,556 --> 00:08:20,116 Speaker 1: we'll get to that. Trade secrets are one of the 135 00:08:20,116 --> 00:08:24,316 Speaker 1: pillars of IP protection in the United States, along with patents, trademarks, 136 00:08:24,316 --> 00:08:28,556 Speaker 1: and copyright. But unlike the others, a trade secret never expires, 137 00:08:29,156 --> 00:08:31,876 Speaker 1: and the muffin case is one of the best examples 138 00:08:31,956 --> 00:08:34,756 Speaker 1: of a trade secret's power. And how to protect it. 139 00:08:35,316 --> 00:08:38,196 Speaker 1: Louis was not involved in the case directly, but he's 140 00:08:38,196 --> 00:08:41,956 Speaker 1: studied it at length. In any telling, he begins by 141 00:08:41,996 --> 00:08:47,796 Speaker 1: introducing the defendant, a former GROUPO Bambo employee named Chris Boticella. 142 00:08:47,996 --> 00:08:51,196 Speaker 5: Executive officer. He's in charge of the entire West Coast, 143 00:08:51,356 --> 00:08:54,516 Speaker 5: United States, and he's privy to all this information, all 144 00:08:54,556 --> 00:08:57,836 Speaker 5: the recipe books, and all of this other financial information 145 00:08:58,156 --> 00:09:02,156 Speaker 5: and efficiencies. He has to sign a non disclosure agreement, 146 00:09:02,316 --> 00:09:05,036 Speaker 5: but that non disclosure agreement's only well he's employed. 147 00:09:07,156 --> 00:09:10,876 Speaker 1: It's twenty ten, the year after Group of Bembo acquired Thomas's. 148 00:09:11,636 --> 00:09:15,196 Speaker 1: According to documents presented in court, the information required to 149 00:09:15,236 --> 00:09:18,876 Speaker 1: produce a Thomas's English muffin is known by only seven 150 00:09:18,916 --> 00:09:22,356 Speaker 1: people at the company. It's kept in secret codebooks that 151 00:09:22,476 --> 00:09:25,716 Speaker 1: only a few people have access to. Babachella, as a 152 00:09:25,756 --> 00:09:29,756 Speaker 1: senior executive, is one of those people. He oversees a 153 00:09:29,796 --> 00:09:33,996 Speaker 1: facility in Placentia, California, where the muffins are made. He's 154 00:09:33,996 --> 00:09:36,316 Speaker 1: been in the industry since he was sixteen and has 155 00:09:36,436 --> 00:09:39,956 Speaker 1: risen through the ranks through sheer skill till finally he's 156 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:45,756 Speaker 1: reached the pinnacle. Bimbo bakery's executive of almost a decade, 157 00:09:45,916 --> 00:09:49,196 Speaker 1: but lately Chris has been unhappy. 158 00:09:50,476 --> 00:09:52,996 Speaker 5: He had said that they had done some cost cutting 159 00:09:52,996 --> 00:09:55,716 Speaker 5: and some head cutting, so that sort of left the 160 00:09:55,756 --> 00:09:58,356 Speaker 5: bad taste in his mouth. It sounded like, from the 161 00:09:58,356 --> 00:10:01,636 Speaker 5: one email that's attached to the complaint that maybe had 162 00:10:01,676 --> 00:10:04,636 Speaker 5: a little bit of a friction with his manager, you know, 163 00:10:04,676 --> 00:10:07,396 Speaker 5: the guy above him. He's just like, you know, there's 164 00:10:07,436 --> 00:10:09,196 Speaker 5: a line that literally says, you know, you and I 165 00:10:09,116 --> 00:10:11,916 Speaker 5: I may not have always nine to I, but we've 166 00:10:11,956 --> 00:10:14,116 Speaker 5: always known what was best for the company. So when 167 00:10:14,156 --> 00:10:16,916 Speaker 5: you read that, you know, that's a polite way of 168 00:10:16,956 --> 00:10:19,316 Speaker 5: saying you and I used to fight a lot. 169 00:10:19,596 --> 00:10:23,916 Speaker 1: Chris gets a job offer at Hostis, famed owner of Twinkies, 170 00:10:24,436 --> 00:10:28,876 Speaker 1: one of Bambo's only competitors, but just barely. Hostess had 171 00:10:28,876 --> 00:10:31,956 Speaker 1: just gone through bankruptcy. Hostess was a possible target for 172 00:10:31,996 --> 00:10:35,116 Speaker 1: Bambo acquisition, but then Bimbo would have owned almost every 173 00:10:35,156 --> 00:10:37,476 Speaker 1: bake good on the planet, and at that point, where's 174 00:10:37,516 --> 00:10:40,836 Speaker 1: the fun. Chris probably knew that group of Bimbo wasn't 175 00:10:40,836 --> 00:10:42,596 Speaker 1: going to be thrilled about the Hostess of it all, 176 00:10:43,036 --> 00:10:45,316 Speaker 1: But he wants to get his year end bonus so 177 00:10:45,356 --> 00:10:46,436 Speaker 1: he doesn't leave right away. 178 00:10:47,116 --> 00:10:50,996 Speaker 5: So now he's sitting all through Q four at his 179 00:10:51,116 --> 00:10:54,116 Speaker 5: role with Thomas's getting all the Q four information, all 180 00:10:54,116 --> 00:10:57,676 Speaker 5: the look foward information for the next year, all the financials, 181 00:10:57,796 --> 00:10:59,996 Speaker 5: on top of all the other knowledge he had. 182 00:11:01,236 --> 00:11:04,876 Speaker 1: Chris signs with Hostess in October. His start date is January. 183 00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:08,796 Speaker 1: The weeks stick by, Chris finally announces he's leaving Bimbo, 184 00:11:09,196 --> 00:11:11,076 Speaker 1: but he doesn't say he's going to a new job. 185 00:11:11,516 --> 00:11:14,916 Speaker 1: Given his long tenure, his colleagues probably assume he's retiring. 186 00:11:15,276 --> 00:11:18,076 Speaker 1: According to court documents, he asks about how to enroll 187 00:11:18,076 --> 00:11:18,916 Speaker 1: in health coverage. 188 00:11:19,356 --> 00:11:22,276 Speaker 5: Oh, I need cobra, meaning like that's code word for 189 00:11:22,316 --> 00:11:24,756 Speaker 5: like I'm going to retire. Almost right, but. 190 00:11:24,796 --> 00:11:27,756 Speaker 1: Then Hostess puts out a press release. 191 00:11:28,036 --> 00:11:30,916 Speaker 5: They helped find out about Host's press release that he's 192 00:11:30,956 --> 00:11:33,076 Speaker 5: going to work in the next two days. 193 00:11:32,756 --> 00:11:35,916 Speaker 1: For Hostess, and Bembo's like, oh shit. 194 00:11:36,436 --> 00:11:38,956 Speaker 5: We've got this seventy five year old plus secret of 195 00:11:39,036 --> 00:11:41,676 Speaker 5: how to bake Thomas's English muffins. It's a half a 196 00:11:41,676 --> 00:11:44,196 Speaker 5: billion dollar product and he knows it. 197 00:11:44,676 --> 00:11:48,316 Speaker 1: Does Hostess have an English muffin? Not yet? Fuck HR calls. 198 00:11:48,196 --> 00:11:50,756 Speaker 5: Chris, no, no, you weren't retiring. You were going to 199 00:11:50,796 --> 00:11:51,796 Speaker 5: the hated competitor. 200 00:11:52,436 --> 00:11:54,676 Speaker 1: This is bad, Hr says, get out. 201 00:11:54,996 --> 00:11:57,636 Speaker 5: Now, he got to a certain point where he knew 202 00:11:57,676 --> 00:11:59,676 Speaker 5: too much and now he's iced out. 203 00:12:00,356 --> 00:12:03,276 Speaker 1: Chris is walked out of the building. He has no 204 00:12:03,356 --> 00:12:06,756 Speaker 1: idea what's coming for him, least of all that he's 205 00:12:06,796 --> 00:12:11,076 Speaker 1: about to be swallowed up by the k Nooks and grannies. 206 00:12:12,796 --> 00:12:18,476 Speaker 1: We'll be right back. We're going to return to the 207 00:12:18,556 --> 00:12:22,396 Speaker 1: Knoks and grannies, I promise. But first we have to 208 00:12:22,436 --> 00:12:24,196 Speaker 1: talk about Willy Wonka. 209 00:12:24,716 --> 00:12:28,036 Speaker 4: So I'll start by saying that one of my favorite 210 00:12:28,156 --> 00:12:31,436 Speaker 4: books as a kid was Roald Dahl's Charlie and the 211 00:12:31,516 --> 00:12:32,356 Speaker 4: Chocolate Factory. 212 00:12:32,916 --> 00:12:35,276 Speaker 1: Genie C. Fromer is a Weis dean at the New 213 00:12:35,356 --> 00:12:38,876 Speaker 1: York University Law School. She's also the Walter J. Derenberg 214 00:12:38,916 --> 00:12:42,916 Speaker 1: Professor of Intellectual Property Law and the scholar of Charlie 215 00:12:42,956 --> 00:12:43,956 Speaker 1: and the Chocolate Factory. 216 00:12:44,316 --> 00:12:47,396 Speaker 4: When my kids were younger, I was rereading the book 217 00:12:47,476 --> 00:12:51,876 Speaker 4: to them, and I was struck, now that I was 218 00:12:51,916 --> 00:12:55,796 Speaker 4: working in intellectual property, by how much of the story 219 00:12:55,956 --> 00:13:00,596 Speaker 4: was actually driven by trade secrets, in that Willy Wonka 220 00:13:01,236 --> 00:13:03,916 Speaker 4: had had to shut down his factory because all of 221 00:13:03,956 --> 00:13:07,916 Speaker 4: his competitors were sneaking in spies to work there so 222 00:13:07,956 --> 00:13:11,916 Speaker 4: they could steal his us and candy innovations, and he 223 00:13:11,956 --> 00:13:14,716 Speaker 4: couldn't tolerate it as a business matter anymore, so he 224 00:13:14,796 --> 00:13:15,276 Speaker 4: shut down. 225 00:13:17,116 --> 00:13:19,556 Speaker 1: For those in need of a refresher. In the book, 226 00:13:19,796 --> 00:13:23,756 Speaker 1: Wonka's Factory has started back up, but nobody understands how. 227 00:13:24,196 --> 00:13:27,316 Speaker 1: Nobody ever goes in, nobody ever comes out. This is 228 00:13:27,316 --> 00:13:29,876 Speaker 1: why it's so exciting when Charlie gets the golden ticket 229 00:13:29,916 --> 00:13:32,756 Speaker 1: to go see the inside of the factory. Nobody sees 230 00:13:32,796 --> 00:13:33,916 Speaker 1: the inside of the factory. 231 00:13:34,356 --> 00:13:37,796 Speaker 4: And so what we learn is that Willy Wonka has 232 00:13:37,836 --> 00:13:42,436 Speaker 4: found the magical solution to trade secret theft by having 233 00:13:42,636 --> 00:13:45,276 Speaker 4: umpa lumpas work in the factory. Why are they the 234 00:13:45,316 --> 00:13:50,076 Speaker 4: magical solution because they don't leave. They live there, so 235 00:13:50,116 --> 00:13:53,316 Speaker 4: they're not going to be sneaking out any trade secrets. 236 00:13:53,316 --> 00:13:57,556 Speaker 4: They're paid in chocolate. They're happy. Let's not talk about 237 00:13:57,556 --> 00:14:00,476 Speaker 4: the some of the racists and other aspects. 238 00:14:00,396 --> 00:14:06,876 Speaker 1: Maybe in a viohilation of some employment law, but it's totally. 239 00:14:10,996 --> 00:14:14,076 Speaker 1: Genie's insight about the umpa lumpas became the seed of 240 00:14:14,116 --> 00:14:17,356 Speaker 1: not one, but two brilliant articles. She wrote, using Willy 241 00:14:17,436 --> 00:14:21,196 Speaker 1: Wonka as the skeleton key for understanding trade secrecy. Her 242 00:14:21,236 --> 00:14:26,036 Speaker 1: major revelation, Willi Wanka's paranoia, the spying and extreme secrecy 243 00:14:26,596 --> 00:14:30,996 Speaker 1: was totally justified. It was essentially based on a true story. 244 00:14:31,116 --> 00:14:33,076 Speaker 1: This is just part of being in the candy industry. 245 00:14:33,996 --> 00:14:39,156 Speaker 4: Everything from reading about the Mars company blindfolding any repair 246 00:14:39,236 --> 00:14:41,716 Speaker 4: people that would come into fixed machines so they wouldn't 247 00:14:41,716 --> 00:14:46,556 Speaker 4: see anything else, to spies being put into factories and 248 00:14:46,596 --> 00:14:49,756 Speaker 4: guarding against that. So it felt actually very true to life, 249 00:14:49,756 --> 00:14:51,836 Speaker 4: and that was a little bit shocking to me. 250 00:14:52,796 --> 00:14:55,636 Speaker 1: Trade secrecy is the part of the law where life 251 00:14:55,636 --> 00:14:58,316 Speaker 1: begins to resemble Willy Wonka. 252 00:14:58,436 --> 00:15:01,276 Speaker 3: This is the most secret machine in my entire factory. 253 00:15:03,116 --> 00:15:04,196 Speaker 1: What's it do? 254 00:15:04,316 --> 00:15:04,876 Speaker 5: Cat you see? 255 00:15:04,916 --> 00:15:06,516 Speaker 3: It makes everlasting gobstoppers? 256 00:15:06,636 --> 00:15:10,516 Speaker 1: Did you see? People love secrets from a very early age. 257 00:15:10,996 --> 00:15:13,556 Speaker 1: It's why Charlie in the Chocolate Factory is a classic 258 00:15:13,676 --> 00:15:17,436 Speaker 1: children's story. It's not just the candy, it's the secrets. 259 00:15:17,956 --> 00:15:20,516 Speaker 1: The world is already full of things you can't understand 260 00:15:20,556 --> 00:15:22,916 Speaker 1: when you're little, and now someone's going to share the 261 00:15:22,956 --> 00:15:29,036 Speaker 1: most special, true knowledge behind it all. But secrets are 262 00:15:29,036 --> 00:15:32,196 Speaker 1: also dangerous. If I tell you a secret. It means 263 00:15:32,236 --> 00:15:35,476 Speaker 1: I trust you. It binds us together, but it also 264 00:15:35,556 --> 00:15:38,836 Speaker 1: alters the balance of power between us. You know something 265 00:15:38,996 --> 00:15:41,556 Speaker 1: I don't want other people to know. That puts me 266 00:15:41,676 --> 00:15:44,596 Speaker 1: at risk. So I need you to know it's a secret. 267 00:15:44,956 --> 00:15:48,156 Speaker 1: I tell you, don't tell anyone before I whisper in 268 00:15:48,196 --> 00:15:50,676 Speaker 1: your ear. I put up a sign on my bedroom 269 00:15:50,716 --> 00:15:55,556 Speaker 1: door saying top secret, keep out. Trade secrecy works on 270 00:15:55,596 --> 00:15:56,516 Speaker 1: playground rules. 271 00:15:57,516 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 3: I can only give them to you if you solemnly 272 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:02,916 Speaker 3: swear to keep them for yourselves and never show them 273 00:16:02,956 --> 00:16:08,076 Speaker 3: to another living soul as long as you all shall live, agreed, aguly. 274 00:16:10,516 --> 00:16:13,236 Speaker 1: Now imagine I'm a major corporation in the real world. 275 00:16:13,836 --> 00:16:17,396 Speaker 1: I'm infinitely more powerful than you. I'm Willie Wonka and 276 00:16:17,436 --> 00:16:20,076 Speaker 1: you are an oo ballompa. I tell you a secret, 277 00:16:20,236 --> 00:16:22,356 Speaker 1: maybe one you don't even want to know. And then 278 00:16:22,356 --> 00:16:25,396 Speaker 1: I say, by the way, I have eyes everywhere, and 279 00:16:25,436 --> 00:16:27,716 Speaker 1: if you breathe a word of this secret to anyone, 280 00:16:27,916 --> 00:16:30,316 Speaker 1: or even look as if you might breathe a word, 281 00:16:30,756 --> 00:16:33,796 Speaker 1: I will destroy you. This is the crux of it. 282 00:16:34,556 --> 00:16:38,516 Speaker 1: At their best, trade secrets protect valuable intellectual property from 283 00:16:38,556 --> 00:16:42,516 Speaker 1: being stolen. But at their worst, they're a powerful tool 284 00:16:42,556 --> 00:16:46,076 Speaker 1: for a company that wants to turn an employee into 285 00:16:46,076 --> 00:16:50,076 Speaker 1: an oo ballompa. It used to be the easiest way 286 00:16:50,116 --> 00:16:52,476 Speaker 1: to turn a human being into an oop ballompa was 287 00:16:52,476 --> 00:16:56,596 Speaker 1: a non compete clause. But Janie says that's going away. 288 00:16:57,356 --> 00:17:00,916 Speaker 4: We've been living in a world where fast food workers 289 00:17:01,236 --> 00:17:04,916 Speaker 4: have been asked to sign non compete agreements, and you know, 290 00:17:05,116 --> 00:17:09,396 Speaker 4: historically people understood non compete as being for the a 291 00:17:09,516 --> 00:17:12,516 Speaker 4: small number of employees, the highest level employees, the ones 292 00:17:12,516 --> 00:17:16,756 Speaker 4: with the access to the most sensitive information, And they're 293 00:17:16,836 --> 00:17:21,516 Speaker 4: just being deployed as form contracts for so many workers 294 00:17:21,916 --> 00:17:26,396 Speaker 4: and workers with lower incomes in ways that are keeping 295 00:17:26,436 --> 00:17:29,716 Speaker 4: them in jobs that they might want to leave and 296 00:17:29,756 --> 00:17:30,516 Speaker 4: go somewhere else. 297 00:17:31,196 --> 00:17:33,676 Speaker 1: A lot of states are banning non competes now, which 298 00:17:33,716 --> 00:17:35,516 Speaker 1: is one of the reasons a company might come to 299 00:17:35,556 --> 00:17:39,076 Speaker 1: Louis del Judy's IP expert to help identify and protect 300 00:17:39,116 --> 00:17:42,036 Speaker 1: their secrets. Could you make that bit in a secret room? 301 00:17:42,516 --> 00:17:45,116 Speaker 1: Can you have a black vault in the office. Could 302 00:17:45,156 --> 00:17:46,436 Speaker 1: there be a secret codebook? 303 00:17:46,716 --> 00:17:50,356 Speaker 5: Because a trade secret will be the only way to 304 00:17:50,396 --> 00:17:53,836 Speaker 5: stop somebody if you really think they're taking something that's 305 00:17:53,916 --> 00:17:57,956 Speaker 5: proprietary to your company someplace else. Because a non compete 306 00:17:57,996 --> 00:17:59,316 Speaker 5: is not going to really be in play. 307 00:18:00,396 --> 00:18:03,116 Speaker 1: But trade secrets can have a dangerous power. 308 00:18:03,836 --> 00:18:08,076 Speaker 4: Sometimes people are just good at what they do, and 309 00:18:08,196 --> 00:18:10,956 Speaker 4: they have advantages to continue working in the same industry 310 00:18:11,036 --> 00:18:15,236 Speaker 4: because they know that industry and their business has over 311 00:18:16,316 --> 00:18:21,316 Speaker 4: claimed things of secrets, and that might prevent them from 312 00:18:21,476 --> 00:18:22,436 Speaker 4: taking another job. 313 00:18:23,556 --> 00:18:27,236 Speaker 1: Trade secrets are the only intellectual property protection that can 314 00:18:27,316 --> 00:18:30,876 Speaker 1: last forever, and because of that permanence and the way 315 00:18:30,956 --> 00:18:33,876 Speaker 1: we're geared to think about secrets already, they have a 316 00:18:33,956 --> 00:18:38,876 Speaker 1: kind of mystical aura in our secular, disenchanted world. They 317 00:18:38,876 --> 00:18:43,476 Speaker 1: are the closest thing we have to magic. The authentic 318 00:18:43,596 --> 00:18:46,476 Speaker 1: Coca Cola formula is written by the tiny grain of 319 00:18:46,596 --> 00:18:50,236 Speaker 1: rice kept in an old liking chest, or cursed on 320 00:18:50,436 --> 00:18:54,156 Speaker 1: anyone who opens it. The most famous ones are the recipes, 321 00:18:54,596 --> 00:18:59,396 Speaker 1: Coca Cola's secret formula, KFC's eleven spices, the exact way 322 00:18:59,396 --> 00:19:02,356 Speaker 1: to create Wrigley's gum. But actually a whole lot of 323 00:19:02,356 --> 00:19:06,116 Speaker 1: things can be trade secrets, software code, financial information. You 324 00:19:06,156 --> 00:19:08,676 Speaker 1: may know a trade secret and not even totally realize it, 325 00:19:10,756 --> 00:19:13,796 Speaker 1: but a good way to recognize one is the nooks 326 00:19:13,836 --> 00:19:17,596 Speaker 1: and crannies test. This feels like a good transition to 327 00:19:17,676 --> 00:19:21,516 Speaker 1: me to Bimbo Bakeries versus Banchella. Can you tell me 328 00:19:22,756 --> 00:19:26,116 Speaker 1: how you came across the case and how you teach it. 329 00:19:26,196 --> 00:19:30,676 Speaker 4: I know the case through working on trade, seper scholarship, 330 00:19:30,716 --> 00:19:33,716 Speaker 4: and teaching. It's a more recent classic. 331 00:19:33,756 --> 00:19:40,476 Speaker 1: I would say, Bimbo Bakeries versus Boutchella. It seemed like 332 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:43,836 Speaker 1: every lawyer I talked to knew about the case. It 333 00:19:43,876 --> 00:19:46,636 Speaker 1: wasn't a precedent so much as a legend, a piece 334 00:19:46,676 --> 00:19:49,876 Speaker 1: of lore, a fairy tale warning about the Umpah Lumpa 335 00:19:49,916 --> 00:19:53,956 Speaker 1: who took the everlasting gobstopper out of Willy Wonka's factory 336 00:19:54,516 --> 00:19:57,436 Speaker 1: and tried to sell it to a competitor. Like any 337 00:19:57,476 --> 00:19:59,916 Speaker 1: good fairy tale, it's a good teaching tool because the 338 00:19:59,996 --> 00:20:05,316 Speaker 1: moral's clear, except and I realized the lessons of this 339 00:20:05,436 --> 00:20:17,716 Speaker 1: case aren't clear at all. If somehow you missed the 340 00:20:17,716 --> 00:20:21,916 Speaker 1: twenty seventeen edition of the Pennsylvania Super Lawyers magazine, I 341 00:20:21,916 --> 00:20:24,956 Speaker 1: would encourage you to look it up, specifically an article 342 00:20:24,996 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 1: titled I Can Do That about a Pennsylvania super lawyer 343 00:20:28,796 --> 00:20:33,396 Speaker 1: named Elizabeth Ainsley. Liz Ainsley is Fearless. She was head 344 00:20:33,396 --> 00:20:36,876 Speaker 1: of the Eastern District of Pennsylvania's fraud team, A super 345 00:20:36,956 --> 00:20:40,916 Speaker 1: lawyer's magazine puts it quote. Ainsley has represented whistleblowers in 346 00:20:40,956 --> 00:20:44,876 Speaker 1: several major cases, defended and prosecuted high profile RICO cases 347 00:20:44,916 --> 00:20:48,396 Speaker 1: against law firms and pharmaceutical companies, defended a major national 348 00:20:48,436 --> 00:20:51,756 Speaker 1: bank in a lender liability trial, and successfully defended The 349 00:20:51,796 --> 00:20:56,516 Speaker 1: New York Times in a federal defamation trial. End quote legend. 350 00:20:57,276 --> 00:21:00,036 Speaker 1: And yet in that whole article they don't mention a 351 00:21:00,036 --> 00:21:03,316 Speaker 1: call she got sometime in January twenty ten regarding a 352 00:21:03,356 --> 00:21:05,756 Speaker 1: secret recipe for English muffins. 353 00:21:05,996 --> 00:21:09,436 Speaker 6: It was a pretty small budget to begin with, and 354 00:21:09,516 --> 00:21:11,236 Speaker 6: I was at a big firm, so there was some 355 00:21:11,356 --> 00:21:14,116 Speaker 6: question about whether I could take it or not. But 356 00:21:14,356 --> 00:21:15,636 Speaker 6: they let me take it. 357 00:21:15,716 --> 00:21:18,396 Speaker 1: When you say let you take it, were you eager 358 00:21:18,516 --> 00:21:20,116 Speaker 1: to take it? Yeah? 359 00:21:20,476 --> 00:21:22,756 Speaker 6: It was an interesting case. It was kind of a 360 00:21:23,116 --> 00:21:27,916 Speaker 6: David and Goliath situation. I thought people ought to be 361 00:21:27,996 --> 00:21:33,596 Speaker 6: free to move from one employer to another, and Chris 362 00:21:33,676 --> 00:21:35,476 Speaker 6: seemed to be. 363 00:21:35,996 --> 00:21:36,796 Speaker 5: Out of his desk. 364 00:21:36,916 --> 00:21:37,116 Speaker 1: Wow. 365 00:21:37,196 --> 00:21:43,916 Speaker 6: So well, he was a single person and being sued 366 00:21:43,956 --> 00:21:46,396 Speaker 6: by a huge. 367 00:21:46,276 --> 00:21:48,796 Speaker 1: Corporation, global conglomerate. 368 00:21:48,196 --> 00:21:51,676 Speaker 6: As with the deepest of pockets. 369 00:21:53,316 --> 00:21:56,876 Speaker 1: Chris Boticella as I have mentioned, was in trouble. Bimbo 370 00:21:56,956 --> 00:21:59,836 Speaker 1: Bakeries has just found out that one of seven employees 371 00:21:59,876 --> 00:22:02,596 Speaker 1: who knew the secret recipe for their newly acquired and 372 00:22:02,636 --> 00:22:06,156 Speaker 1: extremely valuable Thomas's English Muffins was going to work for 373 00:22:06,236 --> 00:22:09,076 Speaker 1: a competitor. Group of Bimbo is one of the large 374 00:22:09,236 --> 00:22:12,476 Speaker 1: bakeries in the world. Group of Bimbo bows to nobody. 375 00:22:12,996 --> 00:22:16,156 Speaker 1: So within days of Chris's termination, before he starts his 376 00:22:16,156 --> 00:22:19,956 Speaker 1: new job at Hostess, attorneys for Bimbo file an injunction 377 00:22:20,076 --> 00:22:23,796 Speaker 1: in a Pennsylvania court, which is technically where Thomas's is based, 378 00:22:24,116 --> 00:22:26,196 Speaker 1: but mainly it's a way better place for them to 379 00:22:26,276 --> 00:22:29,556 Speaker 1: argue the case than California. I would like to read 380 00:22:29,556 --> 00:22:32,756 Speaker 1: to you from the factual allegation section of what they filed. 381 00:22:33,356 --> 00:22:36,036 Speaker 1: Items one through ten cover the basics of the case, 382 00:22:36,916 --> 00:22:40,756 Speaker 1: and then they get to the secret. BBU and its 383 00:22:40,756 --> 00:22:43,796 Speaker 1: predecessors have gone to great lengths to keep secret the 384 00:22:43,876 --> 00:22:47,476 Speaker 1: recipe and process for making Thomas's English Muffins for over 385 00:22:47,556 --> 00:22:52,276 Speaker 1: seventy five years. Thomas's English Muffins are a unique product, 386 00:22:52,356 --> 00:22:56,116 Speaker 1: famous for their distinctive nooks and cranny's characteristics. As a 387 00:22:56,156 --> 00:22:59,796 Speaker 1: result of his employment Bodicella learned trade secrets relating to 388 00:22:59,836 --> 00:23:03,396 Speaker 1: the production of the Thomas's English muffins, including not only 389 00:23:03,436 --> 00:23:07,316 Speaker 1: its recipe, but also the equipment necessary for production, necessary 390 00:23:07,356 --> 00:23:10,236 Speaker 1: moisture level, and the way the product is baked, which 391 00:23:10,236 --> 00:23:15,236 Speaker 1: all contribute to its distinctive characteristics. With the knowledge described 392 00:23:15,276 --> 00:23:19,036 Speaker 1: in paragraph thirteen, Vodicella could produce an English muffin that 393 00:23:19,156 --> 00:23:22,276 Speaker 1: might look a bit different, but that would nevertheless possess 394 00:23:22,356 --> 00:23:26,156 Speaker 1: the distinctive taste, texture, and flavor character that distinguished the 395 00:23:26,196 --> 00:23:29,996 Speaker 1: Thomas's English muffins and that have been the foundation of 396 00:23:30,076 --> 00:23:36,276 Speaker 1: the product's success. End quote. If you're Chris, this. 397 00:23:37,236 --> 00:23:37,956 Speaker 7: Is bad. 398 00:23:40,596 --> 00:23:42,716 Speaker 5: Because you have to The judge is coming to this. 399 00:23:42,716 --> 00:23:47,156 Speaker 1: Cold Louis del Judice partner Troupman Pepper Locke muffin trade 400 00:23:47,196 --> 00:23:48,196 Speaker 1: secret enthusiast. 401 00:23:48,436 --> 00:23:50,756 Speaker 5: He knows nothing about what's going on. He gets a 402 00:23:50,796 --> 00:23:53,676 Speaker 5: slice of paper that's, you know, this emergency order on 403 00:23:53,756 --> 00:23:55,796 Speaker 5: top of his desk that says, we need you to 404 00:23:55,836 --> 00:23:58,276 Speaker 5: act now, and we need you to stop somebody from 405 00:23:58,316 --> 00:24:00,676 Speaker 5: getting a job. Right. That's a pretty tall order to 406 00:24:00,716 --> 00:24:03,356 Speaker 5: ask a judge to do. And the judge looks at 407 00:24:03,396 --> 00:24:07,196 Speaker 5: it and says, Thomas's English muffins, Oh, the nooks and Crandies. 408 00:24:07,516 --> 00:24:11,356 Speaker 1: An immediately recognizable dre secret. Absolutely, you can't let someone 409 00:24:11,396 --> 00:24:14,356 Speaker 1: take the secret behind the greatest breakfast product of all time. 410 00:24:15,196 --> 00:24:19,316 Speaker 1: The judge grants Biembo's wish. Chris can't join Hostess till 411 00:24:19,356 --> 00:24:22,836 Speaker 1: the case is heard. Meanwhile, Grupo Bimbo has hired a 412 00:24:22,836 --> 00:24:27,276 Speaker 1: computer forensics expert who starts looking through Chris's laptop right after. 413 00:24:27,156 --> 00:24:28,996 Speaker 5: He got off the phone with HR when they said, hey, 414 00:24:29,076 --> 00:24:31,996 Speaker 5: we heard the announcement from Hostess. All sudden, three flash 415 00:24:32,076 --> 00:24:34,196 Speaker 5: drives ends up getting plugged into the laptop. 416 00:24:34,716 --> 00:24:37,676 Speaker 1: When confronted with this information, Chris told the court he 417 00:24:37,796 --> 00:24:40,756 Speaker 1: was practicing for his new job. The court is like, 418 00:24:41,076 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 1: are you serious, I. 419 00:24:42,556 --> 00:24:44,796 Speaker 5: Was practicing for my new job. Out of copy, step 420 00:24:44,836 --> 00:24:46,396 Speaker 5: on to a flash drive and take it off the 421 00:24:46,396 --> 00:24:48,636 Speaker 5: flat drive and put it back on the flash He's got, 422 00:24:48,676 --> 00:24:51,356 Speaker 5: you know, your figure. He's in his late fifties, he's 423 00:24:51,356 --> 00:24:54,876 Speaker 5: not good with technology. But yeah, So the court found 424 00:24:54,876 --> 00:24:58,876 Speaker 5: that a little bit unbelievable that he was practicing. 425 00:24:59,836 --> 00:25:03,356 Speaker 1: Chris conceded that it was complicated, but there are mitigating 426 00:25:03,356 --> 00:25:06,156 Speaker 1: factors here. First, the rush of it all and the 427 00:25:06,156 --> 00:25:09,316 Speaker 1: fact that he just met Liz, his lawyer. Then two 428 00:25:09,356 --> 00:25:11,836 Speaker 1: he'd signed a document with Hosts saying that he wouldn't 429 00:25:11,876 --> 00:25:16,036 Speaker 1: share any confidential Bimbo information. He said he'd stuck around 430 00:25:16,036 --> 00:25:18,156 Speaker 1: because he wanted to get his ear end bonus and 431 00:25:18,196 --> 00:25:21,036 Speaker 1: finished two projects he was working on. But the court 432 00:25:21,156 --> 00:25:23,116 Speaker 1: was not convinced. There's not a. 433 00:25:23,076 --> 00:25:28,796 Speaker 5: Lot of confusion or new law that was made. It's 434 00:25:28,836 --> 00:25:31,316 Speaker 5: just everything's really black and white. 435 00:25:32,836 --> 00:25:35,436 Speaker 1: This is the classic version of the case black and white. 436 00:25:35,636 --> 00:25:39,236 Speaker 1: Bimbo catches muffin thief, accuses executive of stealing all sorts 437 00:25:39,276 --> 00:25:42,756 Speaker 1: of trade secrets, except his lawyer. Liz says, if you 438 00:25:42,796 --> 00:25:45,316 Speaker 1: look at those documents, there's no evidence of that. 439 00:25:46,156 --> 00:25:48,356 Speaker 6: I saw all of that stuff, and none of it 440 00:25:48,436 --> 00:25:52,876 Speaker 6: had anything to do with the products that Bimbo produced. 441 00:25:53,236 --> 00:25:56,316 Speaker 6: It had nothing to do with not only English muffins, 442 00:25:56,516 --> 00:25:59,956 Speaker 6: but also you know where cupcakes or. 443 00:26:01,316 --> 00:26:06,276 Speaker 1: Anything else sandwich thins. Yeah, exactly, Liz says. Sure, in 444 00:26:06,316 --> 00:26:10,436 Speaker 1: those documents there's financial information, costs, save strategies, et cetera. 445 00:26:10,916 --> 00:26:14,356 Speaker 1: Confidential stuff, but that's in a different category than the 446 00:26:14,396 --> 00:26:18,316 Speaker 1: ancient muffin trade secret. I can actually read it to 447 00:26:18,356 --> 00:26:19,036 Speaker 1: you this section. 448 00:26:19,836 --> 00:26:22,876 Speaker 7: Okay, So documents and Exhibits nine through twenty five include 449 00:26:22,916 --> 00:26:26,636 Speaker 7: Bimbo's cost reduction strategies, product launch dates, anticipated plant and 450 00:26:26,676 --> 00:26:31,156 Speaker 7: line closures, labor contract information, production strength and weaknesses of 451 00:26:31,156 --> 00:26:35,716 Speaker 7: many Bimbo bakeries, and the cross structures for individual products 452 00:26:35,756 --> 00:26:40,716 Speaker 7: by brand. All this documentation is highly confidential, even within Bimbo, 453 00:26:40,756 --> 00:26:42,756 Speaker 7: and would be extremely harmful to Bimbo in the hands 454 00:26:42,756 --> 00:26:43,436 Speaker 7: of the competitor. 455 00:26:43,756 --> 00:26:45,036 Speaker 1: You don't think that's sufficient. 456 00:26:45,716 --> 00:26:48,756 Speaker 6: I agree that it was confidential. It's confidential, but it's 457 00:26:48,796 --> 00:26:49,876 Speaker 6: not a trade secret. 458 00:26:50,756 --> 00:26:53,796 Speaker 1: Bimbo leads with the nooks and crannies and the muffins, 459 00:26:54,596 --> 00:26:57,836 Speaker 1: but in all the fine print of their complaint Narian Nook, 460 00:26:57,916 --> 00:27:01,356 Speaker 1: Nora Cranny, And yet Liz thinks that's really what this 461 00:27:01,556 --> 00:27:02,156 Speaker 1: was all about. 462 00:27:03,156 --> 00:27:07,196 Speaker 6: Anytime any executive leaves a big company and goes to 463 00:27:07,236 --> 00:27:10,476 Speaker 6: another company, he'll be taking with him the knowledge that 464 00:27:10,556 --> 00:27:13,516 Speaker 6: he's acquired of how to be a chief executive or 465 00:27:13,556 --> 00:27:17,556 Speaker 6: a senior executive. You can't say that that's a secret 466 00:27:17,916 --> 00:27:21,316 Speaker 6: just because he's learned it at one company. I did 467 00:27:21,396 --> 00:27:25,756 Speaker 6: think that they wanted to maybe make a statement to 468 00:27:27,196 --> 00:27:30,276 Speaker 6: people at Bimbo who might be thinking of stealing the 469 00:27:30,636 --> 00:27:34,116 Speaker 6: or peddling the English muffin secret. You know that they 470 00:27:34,116 --> 00:27:35,636 Speaker 6: were going to pursue them. 471 00:27:36,116 --> 00:27:38,636 Speaker 1: What anyone on the outside of the case knows is 472 00:27:38,676 --> 00:27:43,116 Speaker 1: the result. Chris got crushed. If you search this case online, 473 00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:45,396 Speaker 1: you'll see an example made of it on all sorts 474 00:27:45,436 --> 00:27:48,396 Speaker 1: of law firm websites. You'll find it in an introductory 475 00:27:48,436 --> 00:27:52,236 Speaker 1: textbook for intellectual property law. But in none of those 476 00:27:52,636 --> 00:27:55,756 Speaker 1: will you hear whether Bimbo Bakeries was truly able to 477 00:27:55,836 --> 00:28:00,436 Speaker 1: hold its most legendary secret up under scrutiny because the 478 00:28:00,476 --> 00:28:03,956 Speaker 1: case never went to trial. It was meant to go 479 00:28:03,996 --> 00:28:07,316 Speaker 1: to trial, but Liz told me there wasn't money for 480 00:28:07,356 --> 00:28:12,996 Speaker 1: a trial. The judge ruled in favor of Bimbo. Hostess 481 00:28:12,996 --> 00:28:15,596 Speaker 1: told The New York Times, we have a business to run. 482 00:28:16,076 --> 00:28:20,196 Speaker 1: We have to move on. Liz appealed the case and lost. 483 00:28:20,516 --> 00:28:24,556 Speaker 1: The ruling stood. Now, I'll grant you that Chris was 484 00:28:24,596 --> 00:28:27,876 Speaker 1: not an ideal defendant, but this case had real consequences 485 00:28:27,876 --> 00:28:29,476 Speaker 1: for his life. 486 00:28:29,516 --> 00:28:31,956 Speaker 5: After the fact that said, you go anywhere near the 487 00:28:31,996 --> 00:28:35,396 Speaker 5: baking industry, you have to tell Thomas's that you're going 488 00:28:35,436 --> 00:28:38,436 Speaker 5: to be employed there, and which means thomas'es now would 489 00:28:38,476 --> 00:28:39,996 Speaker 5: have the right to go to court and get some 490 00:28:40,036 --> 00:28:42,796 Speaker 5: subpoenas and ask questions of the new employer and what 491 00:28:42,876 --> 00:28:45,276 Speaker 5: is he going to do? Like, what is this poor guy, 492 00:28:45,596 --> 00:28:47,316 Speaker 5: if you want to take his side of the story, 493 00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:50,316 Speaker 5: what is this poor guy supposed to do? Because now 494 00:28:50,316 --> 00:28:52,116 Speaker 5: he have a set of handcuffs on, he has to 495 00:28:52,156 --> 00:28:55,316 Speaker 5: continue to work and can't go anywhere else, which is 496 00:28:55,396 --> 00:28:57,676 Speaker 5: essentially what happened to him. No one's going to touch 497 00:28:57,716 --> 00:28:59,196 Speaker 5: that guy now with a ten foot pole. 498 00:29:00,876 --> 00:29:03,556 Speaker 1: Bimbo didn't respond to a request for comment by the 499 00:29:03,556 --> 00:29:06,876 Speaker 1: time we recorded this episode. I tried for months to 500 00:29:06,876 --> 00:29:10,956 Speaker 1: reach Chris s Poticella. Finally I found an address and 501 00:29:10,956 --> 00:29:13,716 Speaker 1: I wrote him a letter. He wrote me an email 502 00:29:14,036 --> 00:29:16,436 Speaker 1: in which he described traveling to the hearing across the 503 00:29:16,436 --> 00:29:19,476 Speaker 1: country even though he lived in California, scrambling to pay 504 00:29:19,516 --> 00:29:23,356 Speaker 1: for the appeal, and going bankrupt. He writes, quote, you 505 00:29:23,436 --> 00:29:26,236 Speaker 1: will never understand the impact that this had on my 506 00:29:26,316 --> 00:29:32,316 Speaker 1: personal and professional life. What first grabbed me about this 507 00:29:32,396 --> 00:29:34,796 Speaker 1: story was the idea that the nooks and crannies of A. 508 00:29:34,836 --> 00:29:39,076 Speaker 1: Thomas's English Muffin had some supercharged legal power. But by 509 00:29:39,076 --> 00:29:42,156 Speaker 1: this point, after reporting the story, I realized what this 510 00:29:42,236 --> 00:29:45,036 Speaker 1: had meant at least to Chris, and when I talked 511 00:29:45,036 --> 00:29:47,836 Speaker 1: to Louis and Jeanie about the future of trade secrecy, 512 00:29:48,676 --> 00:29:51,316 Speaker 1: I saw a world of trade secrets opening up before me, 513 00:29:51,996 --> 00:29:56,916 Speaker 1: at once futuristic and medieval, where every company had mystical 514 00:29:56,916 --> 00:30:00,836 Speaker 1: codebooks full of secret recipes, a knook and cranny for 515 00:30:00,916 --> 00:30:08,956 Speaker 1: every employee. Nooks and Cranny's is a shorthand for trade secret, 516 00:30:09,836 --> 00:30:12,916 Speaker 1: but the actual trade secret of the nooks and crannies 517 00:30:13,036 --> 00:30:15,836 Speaker 1: never came before a jury. I had learned that this 518 00:30:15,916 --> 00:30:21,636 Speaker 1: controversy was, to my mind unresolved, so we at Revisionist 519 00:30:21,716 --> 00:30:28,356 Speaker 1: History decided to resolve it. We are trying to free 520 00:30:28,356 --> 00:30:33,236 Speaker 1: the muffin, So we're we're reverse engineering the muffin recipe. WHOA, 521 00:30:33,276 --> 00:30:35,356 Speaker 1: I kind of love this, Okay, okay, don't tell people 522 00:30:35,396 --> 00:30:40,076 Speaker 1: that next week we attempt to crack the code of 523 00:30:40,156 --> 00:30:43,596 Speaker 1: the English muffin. My question for you is, is this 524 00:30:43,676 --> 00:30:47,636 Speaker 1: like you're trying to create their exact products? 525 00:30:48,156 --> 00:30:48,396 Speaker 5: Yeah? 526 00:30:48,476 --> 00:30:55,796 Speaker 1: Can we make this exact English muffin? Revision's History is 527 00:30:55,836 --> 00:30:58,996 Speaker 1: produced by Me then that of Haffrey, with Lucy Sullivan 528 00:30:59,116 --> 00:31:03,036 Speaker 1: and Nina Bird Lawrence. This episode was edited by Julia Barton. 529 00:31:03,716 --> 00:31:07,876 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Jake Flanagan, Jordan Mannequin, Greta Cone, and 530 00:31:07,916 --> 00:31:11,516 Speaker 1: Sarah Nix. Back checking on this episode by Kate Ferby, 531 00:31:12,196 --> 00:31:16,596 Speaker 1: Original scoring by Louis Scara, mixing and mastering by Ecco Mountain. 532 00:31:17,396 --> 00:31:35,396 Speaker 1: Our executive producer is Jacob Smith. I'm Ben matt A Faffrey.