1 00:00:05,760 --> 00:00:07,800 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name 2 00:00:07,840 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday, 3 00:00:10,640 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: so of course we are once again inviting you into 4 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: the vault. This is going to be an episode that 5 00:00:15,120 --> 00:00:20,600 Speaker 1: originally featured on November and it is about the science 6 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:23,360 Speaker 1: of whining. Yes, this is this is a fun one. 7 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:25,239 Speaker 1: And I have a little bit of an update on 8 00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 1: the whining front because my my son is now a 9 00:00:27,720 --> 00:00:30,240 Speaker 1: little bit older. He's on the verge of turning six 10 00:00:30,320 --> 00:00:34,800 Speaker 1: years old, but still the whining voice emerges. For instance, 11 00:00:35,200 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: if he's trying to get my attention, like he's in 12 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: one side of the house and I'm in the other, 13 00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:43,000 Speaker 1: he will first go dad, and then if that doesn't work, 14 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:48,879 Speaker 1: I'll go dad. There's like a waiver sounds um that 15 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: goes from wine to warble. Yeah, it's like d And 16 00:00:53,400 --> 00:00:56,319 Speaker 1: then on top of that, he had deep well it's 17 00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,640 Speaker 1: not that deep, but you know, uh, there's but it's deep. 18 00:00:59,680 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: It can be deeper than his normal voice at times. 19 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:06,800 Speaker 1: But then also he will have his stuffed animals sometimes 20 00:01:06,800 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: whine to him, and it'll it's weird because he'll be 21 00:01:09,720 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: playing he's just playing with his toys. But it'll set 22 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,399 Speaker 1: off the whole sort of whining parental alarm in my head, 23 00:01:16,520 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: you know where I cannot help but pay hyper attention 24 00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:21,960 Speaker 1: to what's going on, even though it is one stuffed 25 00:01:22,000 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 1: bear talking to a stuffed monkey. That's messed up, man. 26 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:29,600 Speaker 1: But it just goes to show just how deeply we're 27 00:01:29,640 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: wired to pay instant attention to sounds like this. So 28 00:01:32,560 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 1: is the stuffed monkey being especially attentive to the stuffed 29 00:01:35,880 --> 00:01:38,840 Speaker 1: bear when it winds? Well, they're brothers, but and there 30 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:42,479 Speaker 1: their brothers, and they're speaking to my son, bastion. So 31 00:01:42,600 --> 00:01:46,320 Speaker 1: is he an especially attentive parent when they whined to him? 32 00:01:47,040 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: This is a good Yeah, yeah, usually, but usually he's 33 00:01:49,280 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: very calm when he talks speaks to them. He speaks 34 00:01:51,640 --> 00:01:54,960 Speaker 1: to them in like a soft parental voice and reassures 35 00:01:55,000 --> 00:01:58,560 Speaker 1: them about whatever is happening. Robber, this intro is going 36 00:01:58,600 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 1: on too long, indeed, it is. Well, let's let's go 37 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: ahead and jump into it. Then the science. Come on, 38 00:02:05,400 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 1: we're doing We're doing it. We're doing it. Don't make 39 00:02:08,040 --> 00:02:15,000 Speaker 1: me turn this podcast around. You Welcome to Stuff to 40 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:23,919 Speaker 1: Blow your mind from how Stuff Works dot Com. Hey, 41 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 1: wasn't the stuff to blow your mind. My name is 42 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:28,360 Speaker 1: Robert Lamb, you know. And I'm Joe McCormick. You know, Joe. 43 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:30,040 Speaker 1: I have a three and a half year old in 44 00:02:30,040 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 1: the house, and uh and I and I grew up 45 00:02:32,320 --> 00:02:36,800 Speaker 1: with two younger siblings, so I'm pretty familiar with whining. 46 00:02:38,000 --> 00:02:40,280 Speaker 1: I imagine you're pretty familiar with whining as well. You know, 47 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: I don't have kids, but I was once a kid 48 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: myself and familiar with whining from a personal perspective. And 49 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: also I had a younger sister, and so I heard 50 00:02:49,480 --> 00:02:51,880 Speaker 1: some whining there, and of course whining from the other 51 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: kids I knew. I actually just heard some whining recently, 52 00:02:55,280 --> 00:02:59,639 Speaker 1: I think when it was Halloween and there were I 53 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:01,560 Speaker 1: don't know, maybe you can judge whether this was whining 54 00:03:01,639 --> 00:03:05,919 Speaker 1: or not, uh listeners at home on on Halloween night. 55 00:03:06,000 --> 00:03:08,920 Speaker 1: It was a wonderful occasion when all the stuff to 56 00:03:08,919 --> 00:03:11,240 Speaker 1: blow your mind people got together at my house. So 57 00:03:11,680 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: Robert was there with his child, and Noel was there 58 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: with his child, and Christian was there with his serial 59 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: killer mask and uh, and at one point I remember, 60 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: I think there was some disagreement between parents and children 61 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: about whether it was time to go or then you 62 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:30,200 Speaker 1: definitely heard whining. Was there whining? I'm not sure how 63 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:32,920 Speaker 1: to classify it. There's so much whining in my life 64 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:35,400 Speaker 1: at this point it's hard for me to remember specific 65 00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: incidents of whining unless it's unless the material being whined 66 00:03:38,960 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: about is is really you know, sets itself apart. But yeah, 67 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,640 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm constantly saying, well, what's a nicer 68 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 1: way to say that? Or I can't understand you when 69 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:50,560 Speaker 1: you talk in that whiny voice, which is one of 70 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:54,240 Speaker 1: those things that I specifically remember hearing my parents say 71 00:03:54,640 --> 00:03:57,480 Speaker 1: to my younger sisters growing up. Now, of course they 72 00:03:57,480 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: were lying to you because they could understand you. They 73 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:01,720 Speaker 1: just didn't want you to do it anymore. Right, It's 74 00:04:01,720 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: like the way that you're phrasing that is so irritating 75 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,880 Speaker 1: and just so grading on my sanity that I cannot 76 00:04:07,920 --> 00:04:10,320 Speaker 1: acknowledge it. I refuse to listen to you while you 77 00:04:10,360 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: were talking in that whiny voice. So today we're obviously 78 00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:16,919 Speaker 1: going to be talking about the science of whining, and 79 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 1: whining actually does turn out to be a kind of 80 00:04:18,960 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 1: interesting feature of human communication. What is whining and how 81 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,840 Speaker 1: is whining different from from talking, from crying from all 82 00:04:28,839 --> 00:04:31,840 Speaker 1: the other ways we communicate well. It's often described as 83 00:04:31,839 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: a combination of several different things, So there's an element 84 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:40,520 Speaker 1: of pleading to it, demanding, pestering, and nagging that escalates 85 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:45,360 Speaker 1: in pitch. It begins during infancy and peaks. Luckily, it's 86 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:47,000 Speaker 1: good to know for me that there is a peak 87 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 1: to it between two point five and four years of age. 88 00:04:50,880 --> 00:04:53,160 Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because they say they say it peaks, 89 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,440 Speaker 1: but I've read in some of the studies that we're 90 00:04:55,480 --> 00:04:59,160 Speaker 1: referencing in this episode that whining never really stops, like 91 00:04:59,480 --> 00:05:02,200 Speaker 1: you carry it into adulthood. Yeah. I think it's just 92 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: that most adults learned to curb it and know that 93 00:05:05,240 --> 00:05:08,719 Speaker 1: it sounds that they're ultimately humiliating themselves if they're whining 94 00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: about something. And uh, for the most part, it is 95 00:05:12,040 --> 00:05:15,640 Speaker 1: a child whining at a caregiver, but ultimately anyone is 96 00:05:15,680 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: fair game. Well, usually I think whining goes up right, 97 00:05:19,520 --> 00:05:23,400 Speaker 1: you don't wind down. The parent doesn't whine at the child, 98 00:05:23,800 --> 00:05:26,559 Speaker 1: The boss doesn't whine at the employee. I mean, maybe 99 00:05:26,560 --> 00:05:29,120 Speaker 1: they would, but most of the time the whining goes up. 100 00:05:29,200 --> 00:05:33,239 Speaker 1: The superiority change. Yeah, so I've definitely heard kids whining 101 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: at other kids. I didn't want you to take that 102 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:37,920 Speaker 1: that sort of thing. I wanted to play with that, 103 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,479 Speaker 1: et cetera. It comes from a from a perceived position 104 00:05:41,520 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: of disadvantage. You know, I say, like I've been, I've 105 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:47,479 Speaker 1: been taking advantage of I've got to wine at the 106 00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: person who who, at least for now, is the upper hand, right, Like, 107 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 1: a whining at another child is generally immediately followed by 108 00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,479 Speaker 1: whining at the nearest caregiver to point out the slight 109 00:05:57,600 --> 00:05:59,920 Speaker 1: that just took place. Yeah, yeah, she took a sit 110 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:02,800 Speaker 1: up out of my coke. I don't want that. I 111 00:06:02,800 --> 00:06:05,000 Speaker 1: don't like it. She has to give me hers now. 112 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:08,680 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean it's everything. Like I wanted to 113 00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:10,719 Speaker 1: be the one to get the fork out of the drawer. 114 00:06:10,839 --> 00:06:12,440 Speaker 1: I wanted to be the one to do this. I 115 00:06:12,480 --> 00:06:14,360 Speaker 1: wanted to be the one to do that. It just 116 00:06:14,400 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: goes on forever. Yeah, I can't find my shoes. Yeah. 117 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: Uh So I was interested in how whining compares to 118 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,720 Speaker 1: other methods of communication, and I actually found a study 119 00:06:26,880 --> 00:06:30,920 Speaker 1: from even that looked into this. It's sort of tried 120 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:36,640 Speaker 1: to categorize different modes of attachment communication. That's something that 121 00:06:36,640 --> 00:06:39,480 Speaker 1: that often gets brought up a term this attachment communication 122 00:06:39,520 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: because it's not so much something that's likely to occur 123 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 1: between strangers. It's sort of a communication between child and caregiver, 124 00:06:47,000 --> 00:06:51,440 Speaker 1: or it plays on an existing relationship. But the paper 125 00:06:51,560 --> 00:06:56,480 Speaker 1: was called Screaming, yelling, whining and crying Categorical and Intensity 126 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,520 Speaker 1: Differences in vocal expressions of anger and sadness in Children's 127 00:06:59,520 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: tantra uh And so it was a two thousand eleven 128 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:07,360 Speaker 1: study that tried to categorize the different types of noises 129 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: young children make while throwing tantrums. And they used high 130 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: fidelity audio sampling of natural emotional episodes. So instead of 131 00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,280 Speaker 1: having people try to whine and then listening to what 132 00:07:20,360 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 1: that's like, they tried to say, okay, catch some kids 133 00:07:23,760 --> 00:07:26,960 Speaker 1: whining in the wild, and what does it sound like? 134 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: And it groups together under a couple of categories that 135 00:07:31,480 --> 00:07:35,560 Speaker 1: they have an anger category which includes screaming and yelling, 136 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: and then they have a sadness category that includes fussing, whining, 137 00:07:41,240 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: and crying, and fussing, whining and crying ultimately end up 138 00:07:44,520 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: being categorized as three stages of escalating intensity and sadness. 139 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,120 Speaker 1: So you've got a sadness episode that's mounting, and it 140 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: starts with fussing, which they describe as typically short, flat 141 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,640 Speaker 1: or falling melody, relatively quiet it and low pitched, so 142 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:07,200 Speaker 1: don't want no. Then you move up to whining, which 143 00:08:07,240 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: they say typically contain some verbal content with an up 144 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: and down melody. May also include relatively shrill monotonous non 145 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 1: verbal vocalization so minute, and then of course you go 146 00:08:21,640 --> 00:08:25,560 Speaker 1: to the old classic. Crying is relatively loud and effort full, 147 00:08:25,600 --> 00:08:28,760 Speaker 1: typically with up and down melody. Breath may be interrupted, 148 00:08:28,800 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: as in sobbing, similar to an infant's cry. So they 149 00:08:32,600 --> 00:08:35,760 Speaker 1: put whining here in the middle of this spectrum of 150 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:38,840 Speaker 1: escalating sadness. I don't know what you'd think about that 151 00:08:38,960 --> 00:08:46,560 Speaker 1: as apparent yourself. I mean, does that ring true to you? Um? Yeah, certainly. 152 00:08:46,800 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: I can see crying position making sense, But whining and 153 00:08:50,040 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 1: fussing is some Sometimes I feel like that's kind of 154 00:08:53,120 --> 00:08:55,400 Speaker 1: a toss up because it kind of comes down to 155 00:08:55,520 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: can I talk you down from a wine or down 156 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,000 Speaker 1: from a fuss more easily like which? Which? Which is 157 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:06,080 Speaker 1: the shorter, shorter route connecting it to normal modes of 158 00:09:06,120 --> 00:09:12,320 Speaker 1: communication and behavior, And God, I feel like maybe whiny 159 00:09:12,520 --> 00:09:15,559 Speaker 1: is easier for me to to to deal with and fussy. 160 00:09:16,120 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: I don't know, but it's kind of it's kind of 161 00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:19,440 Speaker 1: a toss up. I'm gonna have to think about it 162 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:23,200 Speaker 1: during my interactions. Uh, from here, hunt out take a 163 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:26,720 Speaker 1: scientific approach to your child's low intensity distress. Yeah, And 164 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,280 Speaker 1: I even ought to ask him is that it now? 165 00:09:28,320 --> 00:09:29,800 Speaker 1: Is this a fuss or whine? I need to know 166 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: for the research. Oh and another thing I just wanted 167 00:09:33,440 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: to say is that numerically, in that study I just 168 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,560 Speaker 1: looked at across the course of it, they recorded thirteen 169 00:09:40,600 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: different children featuring multiple tantrums, so there are a bunch 170 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: of different vocalization incidents recorded. They found that whining was 171 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: by far the most common of these five vocalizations yelling, screaming, fussing, whining, 172 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:55,480 Speaker 1: and crying. There was way more whining than anything else. 173 00:09:55,760 --> 00:10:00,160 Speaker 1: That sounds about right. But surely somebody has tried to 174 00:10:00,240 --> 00:10:03,560 Speaker 1: come up with a sort of scientific theoretical explanation to 175 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:08,760 Speaker 1: explain the nature of whining, where it comes from evolutionarily speaking, 176 00:10:08,800 --> 00:10:11,680 Speaker 1: and and how it fits into the broader spectrum of 177 00:10:11,760 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: human communication and and caregiver to caregiven communication, caregiv to child. Yeah, indeed, 178 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 1: and there have been at least a couple of good 179 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: studies that we're going to discuss here. Um. The first 180 00:10:25,559 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: of which concerns mother ease. More mother ease as in 181 00:10:30,640 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: like Chinese like a language. Now well yeah, yeah. Essentially, 182 00:10:35,640 --> 00:10:38,719 Speaker 1: the more technical term is child directed speech or c 183 00:10:38,920 --> 00:10:43,000 Speaker 1: d S. Mother ease is the annoying way that you 184 00:10:43,120 --> 00:10:45,439 Speaker 1: might hear not only a mother, but a father, any 185 00:10:45,480 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: kind of caregiver speaking to a child in their charge. 186 00:10:49,679 --> 00:10:52,560 Speaker 1: So it's sort of a colloquial name like baby talk, right, 187 00:10:52,679 --> 00:10:56,920 Speaker 1: It's it's kind of like baby talk, uh. The and 188 00:10:56,920 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: and it's it's similar in many ways to lining. The 189 00:11:00,360 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 1: two modes of speech seemed to have a lot in common, though, 190 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 1: mother Rea's plays a definite role in attachment. So Motheria's 191 00:11:07,160 --> 00:11:10,480 Speaker 1: an example would be like, hey, honey, I really need 192 00:11:10,520 --> 00:11:13,480 Speaker 1: you to see about getting your socks on. Hey honey, 193 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: we don't actually wear socks like that in this house. 194 00:11:16,600 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 1: So those would be two examples of mother Rea's. Um. 195 00:11:19,920 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: And and hopefully when you encounter it, you're not encountering 196 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:25,080 Speaker 1: an adult speaking to you in this way, because then 197 00:11:25,120 --> 00:11:27,400 Speaker 1: that that can be even extra annoying. Okay, So I'm 198 00:11:27,440 --> 00:11:33,320 Speaker 1: trying to note the sort of acoustic or sonic characteristics 199 00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 1: of what you just did. For for the child directed speech, 200 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,400 Speaker 1: one of the things was that it was slower than 201 00:11:38,440 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 1: you normally talk. Yes, you put a little more space 202 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:43,440 Speaker 1: in there, and it sounded a little bit higher, like 203 00:11:43,480 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: you're elevating your pitch. Yeah. What what's the other thing? 204 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:50,040 Speaker 1: It almost has kind of a melody to it, right, Yeah, yeah, 205 00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:53,320 Speaker 1: there's a there's a melodic aspect to it, and in 206 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: early development that it's believe that the melodic maternal speech 207 00:11:57,760 --> 00:12:03,360 Speaker 1: functions uhh more to to elicit and maintain attention by 208 00:12:03,400 --> 00:12:08,559 Speaker 1: accommodating the the infants very limited auditory and cognitive capabilities. 209 00:12:08,880 --> 00:12:11,320 Speaker 1: So in a sense that just that the melody is 210 00:12:11,360 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 1: being used as a way to modulate the infants effective 211 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:19,520 Speaker 1: state without having depended as much on the actual language, 212 00:12:19,520 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: like really the languages as much there for the the 213 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 1: the parent that's speaking has anything. Okay, So those things 214 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: we just mentioned in the in the scientific terms would 215 00:12:27,640 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 1: be what they call slowed production, So slower talking, increased pitch, 216 00:12:33,480 --> 00:12:37,600 Speaker 1: and then um they say quote often flows into smooth, 217 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 1: exaggerated pitch contours. That's the melodic nature of it, right yeah, yeah, 218 00:12:42,440 --> 00:12:44,719 Speaker 1: I mean it's also you think of nursery rhymes too 219 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 1: in this case, except nursery rhymes are even more melodic 220 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:52,440 Speaker 1: and ultimately musical. But uh uh that it doesn't In 221 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: the nursery rhyme, it doesn't necessarily matter for the young 222 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:56,920 Speaker 1: child what is being said, which is why one of 223 00:12:56,920 --> 00:12:59,520 Speaker 1: the reasons why so many nursery rhymes have horrific imagery 224 00:12:59,520 --> 00:13:02,240 Speaker 1: in them about out animals pecking out each other's eyes. 225 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:06,800 Speaker 1: But but yeah, the the idea here is that mother 226 00:13:06,840 --> 00:13:09,959 Speaker 1: rees also serves as a scaffolding for the early stage 227 00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:13,760 Speaker 1: stages of language acquisition. The actual words are irrelevant, but 228 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,840 Speaker 1: the melodic tone is key. Okay, So they sort of 229 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: use like a parent would use this child directed speech 230 00:13:20,760 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: pattern to to manage or maintain the child's emotional or 231 00:13:26,000 --> 00:13:29,440 Speaker 1: affective state. Yes, yeah, it's about getting their attention, and 232 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: you know, thinking about like in my home, we try 233 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: as much as possible to speak to our son more 234 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:39,600 Speaker 1: or less like he's an adult. You know, to not 235 00:13:39,720 --> 00:13:41,560 Speaker 1: really do a bunch of this motheris, but you find 236 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: yourself doing it, especially if you need to captivate their attention. 237 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:47,959 Speaker 1: You just fall back on it. But that's interesting. Then 238 00:13:48,040 --> 00:13:52,080 Speaker 1: do you feel like when you're when you're inexorably drawn 239 00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: towards using mother ease or child directed speech. Does that 240 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: feel like a cultural thing? Do you? Or do you? 241 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 1: Do you feel like that's in your bone ones, that's 242 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: in your DNA? Is at a function of your revolution? 243 00:14:04,160 --> 00:14:07,520 Speaker 1: I mean maybe both because I because as I'm saying it, 244 00:14:07,800 --> 00:14:11,600 Speaker 1: I'll realize, hey, this, I remember my my, my mom 245 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,240 Speaker 1: or my dad having to talk like this with if not, 246 00:14:14,320 --> 00:14:16,319 Speaker 1: if not with me, then at least with my younger sisters. 247 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: If I'm having to say, hey, Bastion, I really need 248 00:14:19,840 --> 00:14:21,720 Speaker 1: you to get your clothes on right now and go. 249 00:14:22,240 --> 00:14:24,640 Speaker 1: I really don't like having to talk to you like 250 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: this in this crazy weird singsong voice. Uh. And it's 251 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: you know, I don't know it feel it feels as 252 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: much part of background as anything. But maybe it has 253 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 1: evolutionary keys as well. But you know, one of the 254 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:40,680 Speaker 1: things about the child directed speech that I saw come 255 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:43,040 Speaker 1: up in the literature was how you would use different 256 00:14:43,200 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 1: types of of melodies or sort of uh tone contours 257 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: or pitch contours to signal different attitudes towards the child. Yeah. 258 00:14:53,280 --> 00:14:57,320 Speaker 1: So on one hand, there's uh, consistently rising contours that 259 00:14:57,360 --> 00:14:59,600 Speaker 1: are all about just electing attention, and that would be 260 00:14:59,640 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: like like, hey, buddy, it's time for us to see 261 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: about getting our shoes on so we can leave for today. 262 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,360 Speaker 1: And then there's a parents prohibiting something. And then you 263 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:14,080 Speaker 1: see faster rising contours, which would be again like now, bastion, 264 00:15:14,120 --> 00:15:16,080 Speaker 1: we really don't wear socks like that in this house. 265 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:18,240 Speaker 1: So as you see, it's still that very much that 266 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: signature mother Rea's style, but faster rising contours. Oh Man, 267 00:15:24,160 --> 00:15:27,000 Speaker 1: as an outsider, I give that a doctor spock fascinating. 268 00:15:27,720 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 1: But so we got to bring it back to whining. 269 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,400 Speaker 1: What is the link between child directed speech and whining. Well, 270 00:15:33,480 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 1: there's a two thousand five paper titled Whining as Mother 271 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:41,000 Speaker 1: directed Speech, uh, and this it explored this connection of 272 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: the potential connection, and this was published in Infinitial Development 273 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: and it's the work of Rosemarrie I. Socle, Karen L. Webster, 274 00:15:47,680 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 1: Nicholas S. Thompson, and David A. Stevens. So what they 275 00:15:51,040 --> 00:15:55,280 Speaker 1: did is they took eighteen undergrad students, seven males and 276 00:15:55,320 --> 00:15:58,800 Speaker 1: eleven females. They were these were all non parents because 277 00:15:58,840 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: previous studies had had amonstrated that there was an equal 278 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,040 Speaker 1: effectiveness of whining on non parents and we'll actually don't 279 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 1: have to have kids, just you. It'll still get you. 280 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,360 Speaker 1: There's no, it doesn't matter. So they exposed these individuals 281 00:16:12,360 --> 00:16:16,720 Speaker 1: to stimuli of six renditions of the sentence I want 282 00:16:16,760 --> 00:16:20,360 Speaker 1: to go to Boston, each spoken by both a male 283 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:24,040 Speaker 1: and female, and the addition these were the modes of 284 00:16:24,080 --> 00:16:26,880 Speaker 1: each condition. There was wine, you want to go to Boston, 285 00:16:27,160 --> 00:16:29,480 Speaker 1: all right. I think that was good, and then there's 286 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,160 Speaker 1: just the neutral I want to go to Boston, which 287 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,360 Speaker 1: I'll supply I want to go to Boston. Oh there 288 00:16:33,360 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: you got you got it? You got it for me? No, no, 289 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:37,400 Speaker 1: I'm sorry, no, no no, no, no realized, no, no no, 290 00:16:37,480 --> 00:16:40,920 Speaker 1: I'll do the next one boasting I want to go 291 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:44,440 Speaker 1: to Boston someday I will, all right, now demanding, give 292 00:16:44,440 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: me a demanding I want to go to Boston. I 293 00:16:46,280 --> 00:16:48,880 Speaker 1: want to go to Boston, all right, And then the 294 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,560 Speaker 1: next one question that would be uh, I want to 295 00:16:51,560 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: go to Boston, And then finally, yeah, I want to 296 00:16:57,560 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 1: go to Boston. Yeah, there you go. That was a 297 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:04,160 Speaker 1: little whine, more anger, I want to go to Boston. 298 00:17:06,240 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: A little very good at it, I guess. Let me 299 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:11,000 Speaker 1: give it a try. I want to go to Boston. 300 00:17:12,240 --> 00:17:14,359 Speaker 1: Still a little whiny on my part, though, I don't know. 301 00:17:14,520 --> 00:17:16,439 Speaker 1: We'll we'll have to work that out in the actor's 302 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:19,639 Speaker 1: studio later on. But but so, what they did is 303 00:17:19,680 --> 00:17:24,640 Speaker 1: that they yeah, they unleashed the different renditions. Now they 304 00:17:24,920 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: one of the funny things was they didn't actually have 305 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:31,359 Speaker 1: kids doing it, right, it was young adult whiners. And 306 00:17:31,440 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 1: they said, quote, experience tells us that whining speech like 307 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,159 Speaker 1: attachment relations does not disappear with the onset of adolescence 308 00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: in adulthood, but continues to be used with intimates at 309 00:17:41,200 --> 00:17:45,160 Speaker 1: any age yish. So yeah, so they said that it's 310 00:17:45,160 --> 00:17:49,320 Speaker 1: employed in any attachment partner or two superior figures in 311 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:52,320 Speaker 1: a power relation. That's tying into the superiority thing we 312 00:17:52,320 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: were talking about earlier. Whinding goes up the chain. But anyway, 313 00:17:56,640 --> 00:17:58,679 Speaker 1: they said adults were used because they could supply the 314 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: proper stimulus script better than children. So in each one 315 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:05,120 Speaker 1: of these they also featured a stimulus sentence, So what 316 00:18:05,119 --> 00:18:07,640 Speaker 1: what is being said? What is happening that would elect 317 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:13,680 Speaker 1: this response with its appropriate emotional flavoring um and then uh, 318 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:17,080 Speaker 1: the volunteers were asked to judge the similarity of twenty 319 00:18:17,080 --> 00:18:21,399 Speaker 1: two pairings UM again of the various the various stimuli 320 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: related to going to Boston, and sixty six punt combinations 321 00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:28,080 Speaker 1: of the twelve statements. So this at Following this, there 322 00:18:28,119 --> 00:18:31,680 Speaker 1: is a descriptive rating procedure in which the volunteers had 323 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:34,640 Speaker 1: to rate the twelve statements in terms of various qualities 324 00:18:34,680 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 1: such as urgency, anger, loudness, et cetera. And then they 325 00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,160 Speaker 1: also took acoustic measurements of everything as well, and they 326 00:18:42,240 --> 00:18:44,840 Speaker 1: then they piled all this together into a three D 327 00:18:45,040 --> 00:18:48,679 Speaker 1: model of the resulting data. UM, and this is what 328 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: they found that whining speech shared with Mothery's exaggerated pitch contours, 329 00:18:55,520 --> 00:19:00,400 Speaker 1: specifically of a rising pattern, increased pitch and slowed reduction 330 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: in relation to adult directed or neutral speech. Okay, so 331 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 1: that sounds like it. It matches the main things we 332 00:19:06,840 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: observed earlier when talking about child directed speech. Yeah. Interesting, 333 00:19:11,520 --> 00:19:16,399 Speaker 1: so in a way, Huh, I don't hear it in 334 00:19:16,520 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: my head, though I can see how it would be true. 335 00:19:19,119 --> 00:19:21,760 Speaker 1: I don't. I don't equate when an adult talks to 336 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: a child in child directed speech. That doesn't sound like 337 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:28,520 Speaker 1: whining to me, but I can see how it shares. Uh, 338 00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:32,480 Speaker 1: how it shares physical similarities. Yeah, well, because the parent 339 00:19:32,760 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 1: typically has order and reason on their side and the 340 00:19:36,400 --> 00:19:40,800 Speaker 1: child almost exclusively does not. The child, the parent is saying, 341 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 1: I need you to get dressed so we can go 342 00:19:43,400 --> 00:19:45,920 Speaker 1: to this thing that we go to every day at 343 00:19:45,920 --> 00:19:48,840 Speaker 1: the same time and you inevitably have to go to 344 00:19:49,160 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: and the child is claiming, no, I want to eat 345 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: ice cream first before breakfast. The child is making the 346 00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: sicular statements. Yeah, it's fussing. It was whining about something 347 00:20:00,320 --> 00:20:04,440 Speaker 1: that's completely pointless, and it has no reason or order 348 00:20:04,600 --> 00:20:13,520 Speaker 1: on the side of their argument. Now, one of the 349 00:20:13,560 --> 00:20:17,960 Speaker 1: things we talked about earlier was why it's it's hypothesized 350 00:20:18,119 --> 00:20:21,640 Speaker 1: why mother mother ease or child directed speech sounds this way, 351 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:26,119 Speaker 1: And originally one idea was to accommodate the infants underdeveloped 352 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 1: auditory system. But but they talk about how whining is 353 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: directed at adults with fully functioning hearing. You know, adults 354 00:20:34,320 --> 00:20:37,119 Speaker 1: wine at each other sometimes. So the authors speculate that 355 00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,600 Speaker 1: if we toss out this older hypothesis and just say 356 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:43,960 Speaker 1: that both whining and mother eas exploit inherent sensitivities in 357 00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:47,880 Speaker 1: the human nervous system, that might make sense. Yeah, that 358 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 1: makes sense to me. I mean, it's it's about what 359 00:20:51,400 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: what mode of communication is going to elect the most response, 360 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,400 Speaker 1: and it's gonna in A whining child cannot be ignored. 361 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:03,000 Speaker 1: Um or whining child can be ignored, but at great difficulty. Yes, 362 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 1: it certainly cannot be ignored. I mean I have had 363 00:21:05,640 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: the experience being out in public and hearing somebody else's 364 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:15,280 Speaker 1: child wine, and it's just uh, I mean, it's utterly 365 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 1: attention stealing. You can't think about anything else while it's happening, 366 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:22,159 Speaker 1: you know, And here's something interesting. It's easy again, the 367 00:21:22,200 --> 00:21:24,720 Speaker 1: parent is coming from a side of reason and order, 368 00:21:24,760 --> 00:21:27,280 Speaker 1: and the child is generally speaking on behalf of chaos 369 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:32,200 Speaker 1: and uh and and just unreasonable nonsense. And yet, according 370 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,520 Speaker 1: to a two thousand twelve Max Plaque Institute for Evolutionary 371 00:21:35,560 --> 00:21:40,080 Speaker 1: Anthropology study publishing the American Psychological Association, children as young 372 00:21:40,119 --> 00:21:45,040 Speaker 1: as three can distinguish between pure whining and a legitimate 373 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 1: need for assistance and or sympathy. So they can they 374 00:21:48,680 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: can deduce whether somebody's whining is justified. Yeah, Like one 375 00:21:52,640 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: kid is whining, the kids standing next to them can 376 00:21:55,040 --> 00:21:58,119 Speaker 1: probably tell that it's b S. How did how did 377 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:00,320 Speaker 1: they test this? Okay. They took forty h idren and 378 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: they split them eavily between girls and boys from thirty 379 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: six to thirty nine months old, and then they recorded 380 00:22:05,440 --> 00:22:08,600 Speaker 1: reactions of each child as he or she witnessed an 381 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 1: adult acting upset in one of three contexts. When the 382 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:16,760 Speaker 1: distress was justified that's due to physical harm, material loss, 383 00:22:16,840 --> 00:22:19,879 Speaker 1: or unfairness, when it was unjustified, and when the cause 384 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: of the distress was unknown. Okay, So they had something like, um, 385 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:29,560 Speaker 1: an adult getting an unfair distribution of toys like marbles exactly. Yeah, 386 00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,000 Speaker 1: Or I liked this one. An adult getting their drawing 387 00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:35,800 Speaker 1: cut in half with scissors. They do something and somebody 388 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:39,600 Speaker 1: cuts it up. Or an adult getting getting a toy 389 00:22:39,720 --> 00:22:42,879 Speaker 1: chest lid knocked, getting knocked on the hands with it 390 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: so getting injured, yeah, Or losing a balloon was another one, 391 00:22:45,840 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 1: newly acquired helium balloon floats up and it's gone. Okay. 392 00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: So those are the justified ones, but there are also 393 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: unjustified things where nothing really bad happened to the adult, 394 00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 1: but the children could tell the difference. Yeah, they could. 395 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,879 Speaker 1: They could leve the the amount of character judgment, threat assessment, 396 00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: emotional assessment, and empathy necessary to say, Hey, you're getting 397 00:23:07,320 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: upset over nothing, or yeah, that's awful your balloon. Balloon 398 00:23:11,080 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 1: just totally floated away. That's a bummer man. So let's 399 00:23:14,600 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: say you've got a child with two balloons and an 400 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: adult with one balloon. The adult loses the balloon, does 401 00:23:20,200 --> 00:23:23,200 Speaker 1: the child give one of the one of the one 402 00:23:23,200 --> 00:23:25,479 Speaker 1: of his or her balloons to the adult, Well, that 403 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:30,080 Speaker 1: might depend on whether they saw the adult overreacting to 404 00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:34,320 Speaker 1: nothing earlier or whining in response to something legitimately unfair 405 00:23:34,440 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: happening to him or her. Yeah, and then in the 406 00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:38,920 Speaker 1: case of balloon related stress, the child would offer a 407 00:23:38,960 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: balloon more quickly to the adult if the child had 408 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,680 Speaker 1: previously seen that adult upset due to true harm rather 409 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,280 Speaker 1: than a mere inconvenience. That that's interesting that that a 410 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: child has that level of judgment. But also this makes 411 00:23:54,640 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 1: a distinction between legitimate whining and illegitimate whining. And I 412 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,560 Speaker 1: wonder about that because a funny thing I discovered when 413 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,800 Speaker 1: I was trying to find scientific research on whining is 414 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,280 Speaker 1: that a lot of the journal articles you can find 415 00:24:09,280 --> 00:24:13,000 Speaker 1: about whining seemed to be coming from a business management 416 00:24:13,119 --> 00:24:15,719 Speaker 1: or business philosophy perspective. I don't know if you came 417 00:24:15,760 --> 00:24:18,600 Speaker 1: across I did. I certainly came across a lot of 418 00:24:18,800 --> 00:24:21,879 Speaker 1: uses for the word whining that we're not related to 419 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: childhood development, as in meaning that whining is a non 420 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 1: productive expression of distress, and that sort of fits with 421 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,160 Speaker 1: how I would use it colloquially. Colloquially like if I'm 422 00:24:34,200 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 1: not talking about the way a child develops, but if 423 00:24:37,520 --> 00:24:40,760 Speaker 1: I'm just talking about an adult whining, it's a it's 424 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:44,320 Speaker 1: a person who's just they're not getting anywhere that they 425 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,200 Speaker 1: don't have a legitimate complaint, They're just, you know, they're 426 00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:52,000 Speaker 1: just being distressed for no good reason. Obviously, we all 427 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,640 Speaker 1: agree that that a person, an adult or child, can 428 00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:59,600 Speaker 1: cry to signal a meaningful deprivation or violation, something bad 429 00:24:59,680 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: has had happened, that that actually matters, and they will 430 00:25:03,040 --> 00:25:05,760 Speaker 1: cry about that. But ken a wine signaled the same 431 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:10,640 Speaker 1: or as a wine fundamentally inherently unjustified, and if there's 432 00:25:10,680 --> 00:25:12,760 Speaker 1: a good cause for it, do we call the wine 433 00:25:12,880 --> 00:25:18,480 Speaker 1: something else? Yeah, I found myself thinking back on various 434 00:25:18,480 --> 00:25:22,879 Speaker 1: outburst from my son, trying to decide, Okay, I remember 435 00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: him whining about this, was that justified? And I'm really 436 00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: having a hard time thinking of a case where the 437 00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:32,480 Speaker 1: wine was justified the only possible example I can think of, 438 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,720 Speaker 1: and and not specific example, but there may have been 439 00:25:35,760 --> 00:25:40,159 Speaker 1: times where there's been a slight to him by accidents, 440 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,800 Speaker 1: sort of like say I didn't give him a you know, 441 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,879 Speaker 1: a snack when I'm handing them out, just because I 442 00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,919 Speaker 1: overlooked him and he catches onto that. He might have 443 00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 1: whined about it, But for the most part, things that 444 00:25:52,720 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: are legitimately worth getting upset about, like the cat scratching him, 445 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,920 Speaker 1: are going to instantly go to like a fuss level 446 00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,800 Speaker 1: or crying level of outburst. Huh. But if we go 447 00:26:02,920 --> 00:26:06,520 Speaker 1: with the the the escalation from earlier, the wine is 448 00:26:06,560 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: in the middle, so it's either lower as a fuss 449 00:26:09,000 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: or higher as a cry or do you not go 450 00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,680 Speaker 1: with the same escalation. I'm I'm not sure I completely 451 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,199 Speaker 1: buy that that escalation graph. I feel like it might 452 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: be a slightly different or more complex roadmap, because yeah, 453 00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:22,680 Speaker 1: like if the cat scratches him, he's not gonna say 454 00:26:22,720 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: the cat scratch me, He's gonna outburst about it, or 455 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,320 Speaker 1: he's going to be more likely to wine and say 456 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,840 Speaker 1: something like like the cats sitting in my spot on 457 00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:34,080 Speaker 1: the couch and I don't like that, So I don't 458 00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: know if that's helpful or not. But anyway, you gotta 459 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 1: stand up to that cat. Yeah, you gotta look that 460 00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: cat right in the eye and say you have four legs, 461 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:46,560 Speaker 1: the couch doesn't belong to you. Well, good luck, because 462 00:26:46,600 --> 00:26:49,320 Speaker 1: the cat has the clause. Okay, Well, let's look at 463 00:26:49,560 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: exactly how annoying whining is according to science. Yeah, and 464 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: I think this is a good one to hit, uh 465 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: last of all in this episode, because it really helps 466 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 1: us to underlie the raw power of whining. So there's 467 00:27:08,560 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 1: a two thousand eleven study that came from the psychologists 468 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 1: from Sonny and Clark University published in the Journal of Social, 469 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:18,040 Speaker 1: Evolutionary and Cultural Psychology. And this is this involves at 470 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 1: least one of the same researchers for that we talked 471 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:23,679 Speaker 1: about earlier, Rosemarie so called ure it does, and I 472 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 1: believe Nicholas S. Thompson as well. Um the title of 473 00:27:26,960 --> 00:27:30,679 Speaker 1: the article wines, cries, and motheries their relative power to distract. 474 00:27:31,760 --> 00:27:35,000 Speaker 1: So the researchers set out to see if humans, including 475 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,120 Speaker 1: non parents, are hard wired to be more attuned to whining. 476 00:27:38,640 --> 00:27:41,000 Speaker 1: So that's how it all broke down. Volunteers were asked 477 00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: to try and complete a set of math problems while 478 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,919 Speaker 1: wearing headphones, and six different soundscapes were pumped into those headphones. 479 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,800 Speaker 1: You had toddler wines, you had baby cries, you had 480 00:27:52,880 --> 00:27:56,400 Speaker 1: mother ease, you had two adults in a normal conversation. 481 00:27:56,800 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 1: You had a screeching table saw, and then you had 482 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,280 Speaker 1: the each sound of silence, and you had low Reid's 483 00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,959 Speaker 1: mental machine music. That would that would have been an 484 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:09,240 Speaker 1: interesting addition. So and also just to drive home to all, 485 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,560 Speaker 1: actual speech was in the was in a language unfamiliar 486 00:28:12,560 --> 00:28:16,080 Speaker 1: to the volunteers, so that way they couldn't be semantically distracted, right, 487 00:28:16,080 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 1: They had had to be based in the pitch and uh, 488 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,639 Speaker 1: and just the sound of the acoustic qualities of the 489 00:28:20,680 --> 00:28:25,960 Speaker 1: sample couldn't be that the words themselves were captivating, right, 490 00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:29,239 Speaker 1: So this was These were the results. Volunteers completed the 491 00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 1: fewest problems and made the most mistakes while trying to 492 00:28:32,880 --> 00:28:35,560 Speaker 1: block out the sign of a sound of a whiny infant. 493 00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:40,320 Speaker 1: This was regardless regardless of ginger or parental status. The 494 00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 1: err rate was nearly twice that of trying to work 495 00:28:43,120 --> 00:28:46,160 Speaker 1: with a screeching table saw uh. And it's also worth 496 00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: knowing that mother rea's and baby cries were also fairly distracting. 497 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:54,600 Speaker 1: The researchers positive that this demonstrates an evolutionary importance of 498 00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: whining to attract attention of a parent or caregiver. Well, 499 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: that's interesting to come pair because so obviously whining commands 500 00:29:02,800 --> 00:29:06,800 Speaker 1: our attention. But as the last study showed, we can 501 00:29:06,840 --> 00:29:10,320 Speaker 1: even children, and probably much more so adults can easily 502 00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: recognize the I don't know what you call the the 503 00:29:13,560 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: lack of importance or the lack of justification behind lots 504 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: of whining, if not all whining. Yeah, And I feel 505 00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:23,400 Speaker 1: like this is where it's important to focus on something 506 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: that psychologist Glenn Gear of EVOS pointed out, and that 507 00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: there's likely a naturalistic fallacy at play here. So just 508 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: because this is this is the idea that just because 509 00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 1: something is a natural product of our evolution, it doesn't 510 00:29:35,440 --> 00:29:37,800 Speaker 1: mean that it's a good thing. Oh, this is this 511 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 1: is a common reaction I see to uh to I 512 00:29:41,280 --> 00:29:44,560 Speaker 1: don't know. Studies about human nature or human evolution or 513 00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:48,440 Speaker 1: speculations based in evolutionary psychology is that they sort of 514 00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:52,320 Speaker 1: point out humans tendency to do something that we don't 515 00:29:52,400 --> 00:29:57,040 Speaker 1: like as natural, and then people react like, oh, so 516 00:29:57,120 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: you're saying it's good, Well, I mean natural doesn't mean good. 517 00:30:01,200 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: Lots of natural things are bad. Yeah, So in this case, uh, 518 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,479 Speaker 1: it was. This is basically my my take home on it. 519 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: If you're looking at it based on the information we've 520 00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 1: discussed here, based on the caveat that it it may 521 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:15,120 Speaker 1: be a naturalistic fallacy, something that's that's a product of 522 00:30:15,160 --> 00:30:18,160 Speaker 1: our evolution, but not necessarily helpful in and of itself. 523 00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:21,240 Speaker 1: It sounds to me like crying, of course, is a 524 00:30:21,320 --> 00:30:23,840 Speaker 1: necessary means by which an infant, young child, or even 525 00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:26,720 Speaker 1: an adult alerts others to its dire need. And it 526 00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,160 Speaker 1: whining and mother ease, to a certain extent, are essentially 527 00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:34,120 Speaker 1: crying poured into the mold of language, becomes a mode 528 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,240 Speaker 1: of speaking and a way to bait our words with 529 00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,280 Speaker 1: the un ignorable power of a crying infant left out 530 00:30:41,280 --> 00:30:44,280 Speaker 1: in the cold. So anytime you hear a caregiver and 531 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 1: a child speaking to each other, that's essentially two individuals 532 00:30:48,680 --> 00:30:53,080 Speaker 1: crying at each other with words. Man. That's that's my 533 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:57,760 Speaker 1: my take home on all this. That's profound or disturbing. 534 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: You know that this is grown up in a child 535 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,880 Speaker 1: just crying at each other, but it's crying that's complicated 536 00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,600 Speaker 1: by language. Well, I imagine that's a lot of what's 537 00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: happening a lot of the time in a in a 538 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: household with children, because I mean, the presence of children 539 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:16,719 Speaker 1: just ups the stakes in every possible way, right, Like 540 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,840 Speaker 1: suddenly when you've got a kid with you, things that 541 00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:24,160 Speaker 1: would normally be maybe a little bit frustrating can become dire, 542 00:31:24,400 --> 00:31:27,880 Speaker 1: you know, suddenly this is so important. Yeah, and then 543 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,880 Speaker 1: everything's just harder getting out the door, harder to do. Yeah. 544 00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,120 Speaker 1: I mean you saw when I was over there for Halloween, 545 00:31:33,200 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 1: bastim just getting back out of out of your house 546 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:40,080 Speaker 1: and leaving for the evening. Is this this whole ordeal 547 00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:43,560 Speaker 1: that has to be coordinated with with with with Noel 548 00:31:43,640 --> 00:31:45,720 Speaker 1: and his daughter leaving, so we're both leaving at the 549 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:49,840 Speaker 1: same time, so that nobody's get unfair. Yeah, it's not unfair. 550 00:31:49,960 --> 00:31:54,040 Speaker 1: Everybody's got a completely equal shake. In the end of Halloween, 551 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,920 Speaker 1: you know, I was wondering about the question of why 552 00:31:58,240 --> 00:32:02,640 Speaker 1: inherently we find to whining and crying so unbearable, like 553 00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:05,840 Speaker 1: you'll do anything to make it stop. Uh, And you 554 00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: see this a lot of times, parents just caving into 555 00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:11,040 Speaker 1: what seemed like ridiculous demands from their children just to 556 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,880 Speaker 1: make the whining stop. And I wonder. I mean, one 557 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:18,040 Speaker 1: obvious thing is that it's fear of social embarrassment. Right, Like, 558 00:32:18,120 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 1: you're out in public and your kids starts whining, and 559 00:32:21,000 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 1: you know you're you're embarrassed. Everybody is looking at you. 560 00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: You feel like you're annoying everyone, and and that's a problem. 561 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 1: But it seems like, uh, this would only make sense 562 00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: for whining and crying in public. Public situations might sort 563 00:32:32,680 --> 00:32:35,560 Speaker 1: of increase the urgency of our need to stop the whining. 564 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,760 Speaker 1: But I imagine it still happens in private. You're in 565 00:32:38,920 --> 00:32:41,600 Speaker 1: the privacy of your own home, and still the child 566 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 1: is whining and you need to make it stop. Oh yeah, yeah, 567 00:32:44,280 --> 00:32:46,760 Speaker 1: it didn't matter if anybody's listening. Just whint you just 568 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 1: the whining must stop. Please stop the whining. Tell me 569 00:32:49,920 --> 00:32:52,000 Speaker 1: what you need to tell me in a normal voice, 570 00:32:52,280 --> 00:32:56,360 Speaker 1: and we'll discuss it rationally. One hypothesis that I know 571 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,120 Speaker 1: I've read somewhere before. Before the episode, I was trying 572 00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:02,120 Speaker 1: to figure out what air I had read this, and 573 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:05,800 Speaker 1: I can't. I'm wondering if it was in um one 574 00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:08,640 Speaker 1: of Richard Dawkins biology books from years ago, you know, 575 00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: like if it was in The Selfish Gene or The 576 00:33:10,560 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 1: Blind Blind Watchmaker. But there there is an example of 577 00:33:16,000 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: how sort of the generational evolutionary arms race between parents 578 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 1: and offspring. And one of one of the examples used 579 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: there was about piercing bird chirps. What's happening when a 580 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,720 Speaker 1: chick in a bird's nest chirps with this piercing tone 581 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,400 Speaker 1: until it gets fed or gets the attention it needs, 582 00:33:39,440 --> 00:33:43,080 Speaker 1: gets the help or whatever it wants from the parent. 583 00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,320 Speaker 1: I know one possible way you could think about this 584 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:52,280 Speaker 1: is that the chick is threatening death. The chick is saying, 585 00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to keep getting louder and higher pitched until 586 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,239 Speaker 1: I am threatening to draw predators to the nest, and 587 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,800 Speaker 1: you must give me what I want or I'm going 588 00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,800 Speaker 1: to kill us all. I don't know if you can 589 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: pourt that kind of intuition to thinking about human crying, 590 00:34:11,120 --> 00:34:13,440 Speaker 1: but it makes a certain kind of intuitive sense. I mean, 591 00:34:13,480 --> 00:34:17,000 Speaker 1: I couldn't begin to say that that's actually the explanation. 592 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 1: It seems like there are a lot of factors involved there, 593 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:24,480 Speaker 1: But is that sort of the deep biological feeling of 594 00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:26,919 Speaker 1: what's happening when when you're a parent and your child 595 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,440 Speaker 1: is whining, do you feel predators approaching? Do you feel 596 00:34:30,560 --> 00:34:35,279 Speaker 1: doom looming in? Uh? Maybe a little bit. Maybe. I 597 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 1: often think about Corman McCarthy's The Road and uh, you know, 598 00:34:39,239 --> 00:34:42,839 Speaker 1: the father and son hiding in the bushes, hoping that 599 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:46,600 Speaker 1: the villains don't discover them, the cannibals, And I'm thinking, 600 00:34:46,760 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: you know, if I was there with my son, he 601 00:34:48,600 --> 00:34:50,840 Speaker 1: might start whining about something, and then what am I 602 00:34:50,840 --> 00:34:52,359 Speaker 1: gonna do? Yeah? Do I just I have to give 603 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,320 Speaker 1: in completely to the whining otherwise the cannibals will eat it. 604 00:34:55,480 --> 00:34:57,879 Speaker 1: That's why you got to carve those wood bullets. That's 605 00:34:57,880 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: why you gotta do it and put up a good bluff. 606 00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:02,719 Speaker 1: So we know this is a topic that almost all 607 00:35:02,719 --> 00:35:04,880 Speaker 1: of you're gonna have some feedback on. If you're a parent, 608 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: if you're you just had siblings, are you just around 609 00:35:08,000 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: kids at any point in the course of your life, Uh, 610 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 1: then you're gonna want to share your thoughts in this. 611 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: So hey, and you can always find us stuff about 612 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:17,359 Speaker 1: your mind dot com. That's where we will find our 613 00:35:17,520 --> 00:35:21,000 Speaker 1: podcast episodes. Are video, blog post, and Hey, if you 614 00:35:21,000 --> 00:35:23,200 Speaker 1: want to reach out to us via email, how can 615 00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:24,959 Speaker 1: you do it? You can let us know your thoughts 616 00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:28,320 Speaker 1: about the science of whining or your favorite personal whining 617 00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:30,840 Speaker 1: and crying story. It blow the mind at how stuffworks 618 00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:42,920 Speaker 1: dot com for more on this and thousands of other topics. 619 00:35:43,239 --> 00:36:01,759 Speaker 1: Is it how stuff works dot com is properly at 620 00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,640 Speaker 1: partises fans back by par