Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's mo. I hope you're enjoying Season three
Speaker 1: of Mobituaries. Now, if you know anything about me, you
Speaker 1: know that I'm pretty proud of my presidential memorabilia collection,
Speaker 1: my Benjamin Harrison campaign, Neckerchief, my ticket to the Andrew
Speaker 1: Johnson impeachment trial. I don't do first tier presidential memorabilia.
Speaker 1: I'm all about the guys you can't remember were president,
Speaker 1: which is why I was pretty shaken when years ago
Speaker 1: it was brought to my attention that my giant Grover
Speaker 1: Cleveland bust might not actually be Grover Cleveland. Then in
Speaker 1: the summer of I was invited on PBS's Antiques road show.
Speaker 1: This was my chance to find out who this guy
Speaker 1: I've been living with for over twenty years really was,
Speaker 1: and it all came to a head, a very big
Speaker 1: plaster head. This is a detective story with clues, suspects,
Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of historical connections, including Grover Cleveland's grandson,
Speaker 1: all of it documented on an episode of Detours, a
Speaker 1: podcast that reveals what happens to all that stuff on
Speaker 1: America's favorite antiques show. Here is that episode of Detours
Speaker 1: from g H and pr X when we set out
Speaker 1: to film in the summer of two thousand twenty. For
Speaker 1: the first time in the history of gb h's Antiques
Speaker 1: Road Show. We couldn't go out on the road. It
Speaker 1: was a pandemic, after all. But we still had to
Speaker 1: make a TV show, so we tried something a little different,
Speaker 1: what we call Celebrity Edition. We went and visited the
Speaker 1: homes and or near the homes of celebrities to find
Speaker 1: out more about what they are. Here's my boss, Marcia Beemko.
Speaker 1: The promise that we made to get them to come
Speaker 1: to shoot with road Show is that we're here to
Speaker 1: answer the questions about whatever you're cure us about. One
Speaker 1: of our stops, New York City, for a visit with
Speaker 1: humorist Mo Rocca. I was thrilled and I knew exactly
Speaker 1: where I wanted this to go and perfect for road Show.
Speaker 1: Mo had an object that he had questions about. I
Speaker 1: looked right at my bust of who I then thought
Speaker 1: was President Grover Cleveland, and I thought, you and me, baby,
Speaker 1: we are going to find out your worth and well
Speaker 1: who you are. I'm Adam Monahan, a producer with g
Speaker 1: v H is Antiques Road Show, and this is detoured today.
Speaker 1: Mo's mystery bust. Yeah, let's be clear. This is basically
Speaker 1: a big mound of plaster that I that I managed
Speaker 1: to balance on top of a column. Moe's object is
Speaker 1: a large bust of a stern faced gentleman painted in
Speaker 1: a coat of bronze. A chip on his face reveals
Speaker 1: plaster beneath the paint, but that doesn't detract from the
Speaker 1: air of importance he gives off. He sports a three
Speaker 1: piece suit, a tie, and his defining feature a large,
Speaker 1: bushy mustache. Moe remembers the day he came across the
Speaker 1: bust well here he describes it while filming our celebrity series.
Speaker 1: So cut to the summer of two thousand and I
Speaker 1: went to visit my friends Christ and Madeleine on the
Speaker 1: North Fork of New York's Long Island on a rainy afternoon.
Speaker 1: Chris took me into Greenport, nice town, and we saw
Speaker 1: a place called Capel real Estate and antiques, not a
Speaker 1: typical combination, but we went inside and that's where I
Speaker 1: saw him. We passed by this ju the full old
Speaker 1: building on a corner with gigantic windows. Most friend Chris,
Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure the bust was in the window. Um,
Speaker 1: so we pulled over and went inside, and they sold
Speaker 1: very little in the way of antique, like I think
Speaker 1: there may have been a giant model ship and a
Speaker 1: couple of pots and this bust. And Moe was intrigued
Speaker 1: by the bust, and I think he started talking to
Speaker 1: the proprietor about it, and I don't think I was
Speaker 1: paying attention, and it really did not occur to me
Speaker 1: that he was going to buy this thing. There was
Speaker 1: a tag and it's a Grover Cleveland a hundred and
Speaker 1: fifty dollars, and I thought, I just have to have him.
Speaker 1: To really get why MO had to have a bust
Speaker 1: of Grover Cleveland, you first have to understand most unique
Speaker 1: interest in presidential history. I'm particularly interested in the presidents
Speaker 1: that you can't remember were president, the guys between Lincoln
Speaker 1: and Teddy Roosevelt. They've got a lot of faith shill hair.
Speaker 1: A couple of them were knocked off, one by an anarchist.
Speaker 1: The other one among those guys is Grover Cleveland, who
Speaker 1: had the distinct honor of serving as the twenty second
Speaker 1: and twenty four president of the United States. And Grover
Speaker 1: and Mo go way back. My attachment to Grover Cleveland
Speaker 1: goes back to when I got on a bus to
Speaker 1: visit Caldwell, New Jersey and the birthplace of Grover Cleveland.
Speaker 1: The docent there Sharon Barrell. She raised her family inside
Speaker 1: of the Grover Cleveland birthplace. I was so taken with
Speaker 1: the whole experience. I began going and visiting all these homes,
Speaker 1: and from there most love of lesser known presidents only blossomed.
Speaker 1: So I bought a one way ticket on US airways
Speaker 1: in to Indianapolis to visit the home of Benjamin Harrison,
Speaker 1: our twenty third president. He's sort of the kind of
Speaker 1: the meat in the Grover Cleveland sandwich. So a few
Speaker 1: years later, when MO sees the bus tag Grover Cleveland
Speaker 1: at the Long Island real estate slash antique shop, it
Speaker 1: was like bumping into an old friend and well worth
Speaker 1: the asking price of a hundred fifty dollars to bring
Speaker 1: him home. I bought a pedestal because I couldn't have
Speaker 1: him on the floor. I mean, he had been president
Speaker 1: for two nonconsecutive terms. He doesn't belong on the floor. Um,
Speaker 1: And he became a part of my life since that
Speaker 1: fateful encounter, over twenty years ago. Moe has amassed a
Speaker 1: collection of presidential memorabilia in his Greenwich Village apartment. What
Speaker 1: was sold to me as a cocktail clock commemorating the
Speaker 1: end of Prohibition in featuring FDR captaining the Ship if
Speaker 1: you Will, a campaign neckerchief from the campaign of Benjamin
Speaker 1: Harrison and his running mate Levi Morton, the Republican team
Speaker 1: that ran in an admission ticket to the Senate impeachment
Speaker 1: trial of our seventeenth President Andrew Johnson in April eight.
Speaker 1: And the anchor to the collection, the Grover Cleveland that
Speaker 1: inspired it all, who overlooks the city from his perch
Speaker 1: where he's basted in domestic bliss for almost fifteen years,
Speaker 1: without his authenticity ever coming into question. Cut to in
Speaker 1: The New York Times came to do a piece about
Speaker 1: my apartment on a short little feature, and I introduced
Speaker 1: them to Grover Cleveland. They took a picture of me
Speaker 1: next to Grover Cleveland. But then I got a call
Speaker 1: from the writer of the article and she said, um, hey,
Speaker 1: we're just doing a little back checking, just want to
Speaker 1: make sure that's Grover Cleveland. And I sort of reacted defensively,
Speaker 1: and I said, well, of course, it is who else
Speaker 1: would it be? Sor? Okay, fine, fine, But then she
Speaker 1: called back the next day and she said, you know,
Speaker 1: there's some concern that this isn't Grover Cleveland. My editor
Speaker 1: has some questions about it. And I said, now listen,
Speaker 1: I'm telling you the tag on it said Grover Cleveland
Speaker 1: back in two thousand when I bought him. So she
Speaker 1: said okay, And then she called back the next day
Speaker 1: again and she said, this has gone way up the
Speaker 1: chain and there is concern at the highest levels that
Speaker 1: this is not Grover Cleveland. And she said, why don't
Speaker 1: we just call this a bust that Rockets says is
Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland. I thought, all right, I can live with that,
Speaker 1: I guess, but the seed of doubt had been planted.
Speaker 1: Was he living with Grover Cleveland or with a stranger?
Speaker 1: And then I went to the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom
Speaker 1: Festival um where I met George Cleveland, the grandson of
Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland. I thought, this is my chance, once and
Speaker 1: for all to prove to myself in the New York
Speaker 1: Times that this is Grover Cleveland. I showed him a
Speaker 1: picture of the bust on my phone. He looked at it.
Speaker 1: He turned to me and he said, that's not my grandfather.
Speaker 1: When we come back, Road Show teams up with Mode
Speaker 1: to figure out once and for all whose lightness Mo
Speaker 1: has been living with for the past twenty years. One
Speaker 1: of the most satisfying parts of my job is helping
Speaker 1: guests get answers to their burning questions about the objects
Speaker 1: they bring in. So, of course, when Mo agreed to
Speaker 1: be on the show, I was eager to make good
Speaker 1: on our promise to find out who the Grover Cleveland
Speaker 1: bust was, if not Grover Cleveland. To do that, I
Speaker 1: asked Mo to meet me at Lillian Nassau Gallery in
Speaker 1: New York to visit with the praiser, Eric Silver. Moe
Speaker 1: pulled up for the appraisal bust into on a little
Speaker 1: red wagon secured by suspenders no less. So Moow, what
Speaker 1: did you bring me today? Well, I brought you Grover
Speaker 1: Cleveland or a bust of someone who I thought was
Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland. Very much so. The piece has quite a
Speaker 1: bit of quality and has a presence. So it was
Speaker 1: done by a professional artist. It's not the work of
Speaker 1: an amateur. I don't know if it's American, it could
Speaker 1: be French. Italian, and so we just don't know. I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't know if he looks like any particular nationality,
Speaker 1: but there's no no way of knowing, and that's going
Speaker 1: to make the search that much more difficulty. So you
Speaker 1: don't know who it is. I don't know. I wish
Speaker 1: I did, you know, and I was trying, you know,
Speaker 1: I tried to look up the artist, you know, see
Speaker 1: what he you know who he was, and I just, uh, come,
Speaker 1: I didn't come up with anything. So there's just no
Speaker 1: way of knowing. Moo took the news graciously, especially when
Speaker 1: Eric's adjusted a way forward. If you expose it more,
Speaker 1: somebody might recognize it. I mean that's that's the remote possibility.
Speaker 1: So what you're saying is there could be a sequel episode,
Speaker 1: right exactly, right. I mean, you can include in the
Speaker 1: bottom of your emails, you can have a little photo
Speaker 1: of him, and you know, as people if they know
Speaker 1: who this person is. So it's just where we have
Speaker 1: a lower third graphic. This is if you know who
Speaker 1: this is, right to exactly Eric at anw dot com,
Speaker 1: right exactly, and we'll solve it because millions of people
Speaker 1: watching Antinks road shows, So you have a you have
Speaker 1: a great chance. Maybe someone could pinpoint that exceptionally bushie mustache,
Speaker 1: or maybe they'd noticed the little clues the sculptor left behind.
Speaker 1: We see his first initials, and we see a date,
Speaker 1: and then we see his first three letters of his
Speaker 1: last name, the name of the artists, would no doubt
Speaker 1: be a step in the right direction. On the side
Speaker 1: of the bust are the letters P and S, followed
Speaker 1: by A B, B, and right underneath the letters is
Speaker 1: a date, and then it disappears. The thing is about
Speaker 1: that a little insert on Eric is that Eric happens
Speaker 1: to be one of the best generalists we have. Again,
Speaker 1: my boss, Marsha Beemko, when he told you, Adam that
Speaker 1: he couldn't figure it out, our hearts sank because it
Speaker 1: was like, oh no, if he If Eric can't do it,
Speaker 1: we might be in a tough spot here. Yeah. When
Speaker 1: the episode aired in May of two thousand twenty one,
Speaker 1: we put out a call for leads, and our viewers
Speaker 1: were quick to share their theories. Perhaps it was Cecil
Speaker 1: John Rhodes, founder of de Beers, the Diamond Company and
Speaker 1: the Rhodes Scholarship, William Faulkner and Mark Twain, and even
Speaker 1: John Ringling of Ringling Brothers Circus, all mustachioed, but none
Speaker 1: checked out as our guy. So we were watching and
Speaker 1: I like a challenge. Two people weren't giving up yet,
Speaker 1: and they weren't the random history buffs we thought might
Speaker 1: write in for these viewers. Most not Grover Cleveland. Bust
Speaker 1: was more personal. I worked on his podcast. I was
Speaker 1: connected to him through a mutual friend. Megan Marcus, was
Speaker 1: a producer from mose podcast Mobituaries. He once referred to
Speaker 1: her as all of Agatha Christie's detectives in one when
Speaker 1: you guys couldn't cure it out. I love to get
Speaker 1: to the bottom of things, and a knack for sleuthing
Speaker 1: runs in the family. So Megan's sister Zoe got on
Speaker 1: the case as well. I mean the first thing that
Speaker 1: we started working off of was the crowd sourcing that
Speaker 1: existed right after. And there was a name that came
Speaker 1: up on Twitter and Zoe went to town on this. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think I went off to town. I went to
Speaker 1: town in the wrong direction. Here's Zoe. But I saw
Speaker 1: someone had said, oh you know who is It's Benjamin
Speaker 1: Barker O'Dell, who was a governor of New York. That's
Speaker 1: Benjamin Barker O'Dell Jr. Governor of New York from nineteen
Speaker 1: o one to nineteen o four, not to be confused
Speaker 1: with his father, Benjamin Barker O'Dell Senior, who also held
Speaker 1: public office. It's plausible both had portrait bus made, but
Speaker 1: O'Dell senior died five years before most bus was made,
Speaker 1: so he's out. His son, on the other hand, lived
Speaker 1: until ninety six, and he did have a mustache. And
Speaker 1: I think they had a photo and I was like,
Speaker 1: you know what, it does look like that, which, by
Speaker 1: the way, a lot of men with a mustache and
Speaker 1: BET are like they're all going to kind of look
Speaker 1: like that. So that was like that, that's got to
Speaker 1: be him, to be fair, Benjamin Barker O'Dell Junior's mustache
Speaker 1: looks to be about the same density as our bus.
Speaker 1: But Megan wasn't fully convinced. I looked at the photo.
Speaker 1: He looked too skinny, like this was a heftier. I
Speaker 1: thought it was artistic license that maybe you know, they
Speaker 1: were just you know, well, it's hard because like all
Speaker 1: the mustache thing is deceptive, so I was doubting it,
Speaker 1: but I had nothing else to go off of and
Speaker 1: then somebody tweets out with the sculptor's name. That name
Speaker 1: came from viewer Mark McCarron. It might have been a
Speaker 1: message that flashed up on the screen that said help
Speaker 1: Morocca identify the sculpture, and I think it directed me
Speaker 1: to a Twitter site. I don't remember exactly, but you know,
Speaker 1: I got out my device and I started frantically trying
Speaker 1: to act. Mark McCarron is the executive director of the
Speaker 1: Historical Society in Torrington, Connecticut, and he's likely the only
Speaker 1: person watching that night, possibly the only person period for
Speaker 1: whom P S A B B rang a bell. When
Speaker 1: mo was visiting the appraiser, I think the appraiser said, well,
Speaker 1: there's obviously a professional sculpture, but you know, I can't
Speaker 1: make out the signature and it's not somebody I'm familiar with.
Speaker 1: And at that point the cameras zoomed in on the
Speaker 1: sculpture and I immediately recognized it as Paulo as Sabate
Speaker 1: because he worked in Torrington for many, many decades, and
Speaker 1: we have a pretty good collection of his work and
Speaker 1: his he signed everything. Mark revealed just enough new information
Speaker 1: from Megan to make some progress, because remember the thinking
Speaker 1: at that point is that it's Benjamin Barker O'Dell. So
Speaker 1: I'm trying to connect Odell with Abote, not finding any
Speaker 1: connection at all. So then I just do this is
Speaker 1: my usual trick. I go on newspapers dot com and
Speaker 1: I just put in the sculptor's name and bust, and
Speaker 1: I'd give a time here. We knew it was, so
Speaker 1: I'm like, let me do a little bit before and
Speaker 1: a little bit after. So the first hit that comes
Speaker 1: up on newspapers dot Com is from March the Brooklyn
Speaker 1: Daily Eagle, and there is a photo of this exact bust,
Speaker 1: and it says, a bust portrait of Police Commissioner Richard e.
Speaker 1: Enright has just been completed in bronze by Paolo Esabate.
Speaker 1: The bust is of heroic size and will be presented
Speaker 1: to the Commissioner sometime during the summer. Its final resting
Speaker 1: place has not been decided upon. Mr Abat is well
Speaker 1: known in congregational circles in Brooklyn, where he is in
Speaker 1: charge of the Italian Church of the Redeemer, Clinton and
Speaker 1: Carroll Streets. I mean, there's your proof, of course, Megan
Speaker 1: and Zoe were communicating every development to MO. It really
Speaker 1: was while to see that sculpture, which is in my
Speaker 1: apartment and has been with me for so long, in
Speaker 1: an archival photo um, because I come to believe that
Speaker 1: he just sort of via spontaneous generation, kind of was
Speaker 1: born in that shop on the North Fork of Long
Speaker 1: Island where I bought him. I mean, I'd given up
Speaker 1: even imagining him in other settings, but to see him
Speaker 1: in this setting with the sculptor um was really exciting.
Speaker 1: It was it was kind of thrilling that made the
Speaker 1: hairs in the back of my neck stand up. So
Speaker 1: we got our full circle moment, the satisfying answer we
Speaker 1: were all craving and a name to the face, Not
Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland, but Richard E. N Right, a man I
Speaker 1: had never heard of, but I did find someone who had.
Speaker 1: So my name is Larry Sullivan, and I'm Professor Emeritus
Speaker 1: and also Team Chief Flight Brian and Professor Criminal Justice
Speaker 1: from the John J. College of Criminal Justice's The Lloyd
Speaker 1: Seeley Library at John J College of Criminal Justice is
Speaker 1: home to an archive of Richard E. Enwright materials and
Speaker 1: it's only a few miles from most place. Now. Who
Speaker 1: who was Richard E. En Right. All Right was the
Speaker 1: first police commissioner that came to the racks. Five year
Speaker 1: old and Right joined the NYPD in eight eventually becoming
Speaker 1: the first officer to rise through the ranks from lieutenant
Speaker 1: to police commissioner in nineteen eighteen and serving through nine
Speaker 1: when he retired. If you look at the list of
Speaker 1: the years of New York Police commission she was one
Speaker 1: of the longest last. So with the with our bus
Speaker 1: with Moroccos bust having the year one inscribed on it,
Speaker 1: can you just paint the picture of what was going
Speaker 1: on in New York City in the twenties. In New
Speaker 1: York was three. Then he speakeasies all over the place
Speaker 1: to crooked politicians, and he had to deal with us.
Speaker 1: And that's probably one of these, uh, you know, his legacies.
Speaker 1: I guess he was honest, which, as Larry pointed out,
Speaker 1: was not a typical quality of Prohibition era police officers.
Speaker 1: I mean, most of them would take payoffs. Two years
Speaker 1: into en Right's career as commissioner, the National Prohibition Act
Speaker 1: took effect. En Right, who was known for not tolerating graft,
Speaker 1: cracked down on organized crime that became rampant during this
Speaker 1: period and later when the police came under criticism for
Speaker 1: ineffectively enforcing the National Prohibition Act, and Right made the
Speaker 1: controversial decision to bring charges against members of the force.
Speaker 1: But that wasn't all and Right is remembered for and
Speaker 1: there may be two or three points that stand out.
Speaker 1: One is ninety two he hosted the International Conference from
Speaker 1: Police Choot. This was the first time such a conference
Speaker 1: had been held in the US, uh that the next year.
Speaker 1: Digipol Interpol is the organization that coordinates between local police
Speaker 1: departments in countries all over the world, and its founding
Speaker 1: can be traced back to n. Right. And also he
Speaker 1: was a very advocate of printing. Fingerprint identification for criminal
Speaker 1: investigation had only just been introduced in Europe by the
Speaker 1: time and Right joined the police force in the eighteen nineties,
Speaker 1: but it didn't take long for the novel system to
Speaker 1: spread internationally, and by oh three, New York State prisons
Speaker 1: were using the technique for criminal record purposes, and Right
Speaker 1: envisioned fingerprints resolving identity questions of all kinds, not just
Speaker 1: within the context of crime. In nineteen n Right wrote
Speaker 1: an article for Scientific American titled Everybody should be Fingerprinted?
Speaker 1: Where he advocated for a universal system of fingerprinting. Early
Speaker 1: into retirement, and Right dabbled in fiction writing, publishing his
Speaker 1: first book, Vultures of the Dark, a detective story based
Speaker 1: on his own experiences in the NYPD. And although his
Speaker 1: career as a crime novelist didn't take off commercially, he
Speaker 1: did receive high praise from a fellow law enforcement official
Speaker 1: turned writer, William J. Flynn, who described and write as
Speaker 1: a holy new writer whose prolific brain can evolve and
Speaker 1: depict fresh, sparkling detective situations. While we were learning of
Speaker 1: en rights foray into crime fiction, Megan and Moe were
Speaker 1: doing some research of their own. Well, Megan Marcus ended
Speaker 1: up sending me an article about his sentent becoming a
Speaker 1: cop on Long Island. I think the first um since
Speaker 1: Richard N. Right in that family to do so um.
Speaker 1: So I thought that was pretty cool, and I thought, well,
Speaker 1: we could keep this thing going if I introduced this
Speaker 1: young cop to the to the bust um. And of
Speaker 1: course I was pleased to find out that he was
Speaker 1: a particularly celebrated esteemed chief of police during Prohibition, at
Speaker 1: a time when, of course, as anyone who's seen the
Speaker 1: untouchable as the movie or the TV show can tell you,
Speaker 1: it was a time of a lot of crime. So
Speaker 1: I'm happy to have him in my home. I'm glad
Speaker 1: we are able to solve the mystery from at the
Speaker 1: end of the day. Like I can't even believe this
Speaker 1: is the most unsatisfying appraisal that we might have done. Listen,
Speaker 1: sometimes stuff like this happens. He was such a good
Speaker 1: sport about us failing to answer the question that day.
Speaker 1: We don't have all the answers we have of them,
Speaker 1: but sometimes we don't. I love that this one was
Speaker 1: such a group effort to get to the answer. No
Speaker 1: yin It's store, we never in all. Watson Si de
Speaker 1: Tours is a production of g b H in Boston
Speaker 1: and pr X. This episode was written and produced by
Speaker 1: Isabel Hibbert. Our editor is Galen Bebe. Our senior producer
Speaker 1: and sound designer is Ian Coss. Jocelyn Gonzalez is the
Speaker 1: director of pr X Productions. Devin Maverick Robbins is the
Speaker 1: managing producer of podcast for g d H and Marsha
Speaker 1: Benko is executive producer of Detours. I'm Your Host and
Speaker 1: co executive producer Adam Monahan. Our theme music is Once
Speaker 1: in a Century Storm by Will Daily from the album
Speaker 1: National Throat. Thank you all for listening. Have a good one,
Speaker 1: g B A. I hope you enjoyed listening to this
Speaker 1: episode from season two of Detours from G B H
Speaker 1: and pr Rex. We'll be back soon with new episodes
Speaker 1: of Mobituaries, available on Amazon Music or wherever you get
Speaker 1: your podcasts.