1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:04,920 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, it's mo. I hope you're enjoying Season three 2 00:00:05,000 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: of Mobituaries. Now, if you know anything about me, you 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:12,320 Speaker 1: know that I'm pretty proud of my presidential memorabilia collection, 4 00:00:12,880 --> 00:00:16,640 Speaker 1: my Benjamin Harrison campaign, Neckerchief, my ticket to the Andrew 5 00:00:16,720 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: Johnson impeachment trial. I don't do first tier presidential memorabilia. 6 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: I'm all about the guys you can't remember were president, 7 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: which is why I was pretty shaken when years ago 8 00:00:28,440 --> 00:00:31,560 Speaker 1: it was brought to my attention that my giant Grover 9 00:00:31,640 --> 00:00:36,839 Speaker 1: Cleveland bust might not actually be Grover Cleveland. Then in 10 00:00:36,880 --> 00:00:41,320 Speaker 1: the summer of I was invited on PBS's Antiques road show. 11 00:00:41,800 --> 00:00:44,480 Speaker 1: This was my chance to find out who this guy 12 00:00:44,600 --> 00:00:47,279 Speaker 1: I've been living with for over twenty years really was, 13 00:00:48,240 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: and it all came to a head, a very big 14 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:56,600 Speaker 1: plaster head. This is a detective story with clues, suspects, 15 00:00:56,960 --> 00:01:01,480 Speaker 1: and a whole bunch of historical connections, including Grover Cleveland's grandson, 16 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:05,760 Speaker 1: all of it documented on an episode of Detours, a 17 00:01:05,920 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: podcast that reveals what happens to all that stuff on 18 00:01:09,120 --> 00:01:13,919 Speaker 1: America's favorite antiques show. Here is that episode of Detours 19 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: from g H and pr X when we set out 20 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:24,840 Speaker 1: to film in the summer of two thousand twenty. For 21 00:01:25,040 --> 00:01:28,039 Speaker 1: the first time in the history of gb h's Antiques 22 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,200 Speaker 1: Road Show. We couldn't go out on the road. It 23 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:34,360 Speaker 1: was a pandemic, after all. But we still had to 24 00:01:34,400 --> 00:01:37,760 Speaker 1: make a TV show, so we tried something a little different, 25 00:01:38,120 --> 00:01:41,840 Speaker 1: what we call Celebrity Edition. We went and visited the 26 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:46,679 Speaker 1: homes and or near the homes of celebrities to find 27 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: out more about what they are. Here's my boss, Marcia Beemko. 28 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 1: The promise that we made to get them to come 29 00:01:53,840 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: to shoot with road Show is that we're here to 30 00:01:57,200 --> 00:02:03,880 Speaker 1: answer the questions about whatever you're cure us about. One 31 00:02:03,880 --> 00:02:06,640 Speaker 1: of our stops, New York City, for a visit with 32 00:02:06,800 --> 00:02:10,840 Speaker 1: humorist Mo Rocca. I was thrilled and I knew exactly 33 00:02:10,919 --> 00:02:14,640 Speaker 1: where I wanted this to go and perfect for road Show. 34 00:02:14,960 --> 00:02:18,160 Speaker 1: Mo had an object that he had questions about. I 35 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:21,440 Speaker 1: looked right at my bust of who I then thought 36 00:02:21,680 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 1: was President Grover Cleveland, and I thought, you and me, baby, 37 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:31,679 Speaker 1: we are going to find out your worth and well 38 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:38,959 Speaker 1: who you are. I'm Adam Monahan, a producer with g 39 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:44,120 Speaker 1: v H is Antiques Road Show, and this is detoured today. 40 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:59,760 Speaker 1: Mo's mystery bust. Yeah, let's be clear. This is basically 41 00:03:00,160 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 1: a big mound of plaster that I that I managed 42 00:03:03,800 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: to balance on top of a column. Moe's object is 43 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:12,240 Speaker 1: a large bust of a stern faced gentleman painted in 44 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: a coat of bronze. A chip on his face reveals 45 00:03:15,680 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 1: plaster beneath the paint, but that doesn't detract from the 46 00:03:18,800 --> 00:03:22,000 Speaker 1: air of importance he gives off. He sports a three 47 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:26,119 Speaker 1: piece suit, a tie, and his defining feature a large, 48 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:30,120 Speaker 1: bushy mustache. Moe remembers the day he came across the 49 00:03:30,160 --> 00:03:34,000 Speaker 1: bust well here he describes it while filming our celebrity series. 50 00:03:34,639 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: So cut to the summer of two thousand and I 51 00:03:37,680 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: went to visit my friends Christ and Madeleine on the 52 00:03:40,280 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: North Fork of New York's Long Island on a rainy afternoon. 53 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:48,640 Speaker 1: Chris took me into Greenport, nice town, and we saw 54 00:03:48,640 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: a place called Capel real Estate and antiques, not a 55 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:56,440 Speaker 1: typical combination, but we went inside and that's where I 56 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: saw him. We passed by this ju the full old 57 00:04:00,560 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: building on a corner with gigantic windows. Most friend Chris, 58 00:04:05,160 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 1: and I'm pretty sure the bust was in the window. Um, 59 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,480 Speaker 1: so we pulled over and went inside, and they sold 60 00:04:12,600 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: very little in the way of antique, like I think 61 00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:17,839 Speaker 1: there may have been a giant model ship and a 62 00:04:17,880 --> 00:04:23,040 Speaker 1: couple of pots and this bust. And Moe was intrigued 63 00:04:23,080 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: by the bust, and I think he started talking to 64 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,600 Speaker 1: the proprietor about it, and I don't think I was 65 00:04:27,640 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: paying attention, and it really did not occur to me 66 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:32,080 Speaker 1: that he was going to buy this thing. There was 67 00:04:32,080 --> 00:04:35,520 Speaker 1: a tag and it's a Grover Cleveland a hundred and 68 00:04:35,560 --> 00:04:43,760 Speaker 1: fifty dollars, and I thought, I just have to have him. 69 00:04:43,760 --> 00:04:46,760 Speaker 1: To really get why MO had to have a bust 70 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: of Grover Cleveland, you first have to understand most unique 71 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,159 Speaker 1: interest in presidential history. I'm particularly interested in the presidents 72 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,960 Speaker 1: that you can't remember were president, the guys between Lincoln 73 00:04:57,960 --> 00:05:00,479 Speaker 1: and Teddy Roosevelt. They've got a lot of faith shill hair. 74 00:05:00,640 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 1: A couple of them were knocked off, one by an anarchist. 75 00:05:03,200 --> 00:05:06,440 Speaker 1: The other one among those guys is Grover Cleveland, who 76 00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,679 Speaker 1: had the distinct honor of serving as the twenty second 77 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:14,320 Speaker 1: and twenty four president of the United States. And Grover 78 00:05:14,440 --> 00:05:18,279 Speaker 1: and Mo go way back. My attachment to Grover Cleveland 79 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,880 Speaker 1: goes back to when I got on a bus to 80 00:05:21,000 --> 00:05:25,360 Speaker 1: visit Caldwell, New Jersey and the birthplace of Grover Cleveland. 81 00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,600 Speaker 1: The docent there Sharon Barrell. She raised her family inside 82 00:05:29,640 --> 00:05:33,120 Speaker 1: of the Grover Cleveland birthplace. I was so taken with 83 00:05:33,160 --> 00:05:37,040 Speaker 1: the whole experience. I began going and visiting all these homes, 84 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: and from there most love of lesser known presidents only blossomed. 85 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:46,279 Speaker 1: So I bought a one way ticket on US airways 86 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:51,880 Speaker 1: in to Indianapolis to visit the home of Benjamin Harrison, 87 00:05:51,920 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: our twenty third president. He's sort of the kind of 88 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: the meat in the Grover Cleveland sandwich. So a few 89 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,200 Speaker 1: years later, when MO sees the bus tag Grover Cleveland 90 00:06:01,480 --> 00:06:05,280 Speaker 1: at the Long Island real estate slash antique shop, it 91 00:06:05,360 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: was like bumping into an old friend and well worth 92 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:11,080 Speaker 1: the asking price of a hundred fifty dollars to bring 93 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,400 Speaker 1: him home. I bought a pedestal because I couldn't have 94 00:06:14,520 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 1: him on the floor. I mean, he had been president 95 00:06:17,080 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: for two nonconsecutive terms. He doesn't belong on the floor. Um, 96 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:26,920 Speaker 1: And he became a part of my life since that 97 00:06:27,000 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: fateful encounter, over twenty years ago. Moe has amassed a 98 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:35,120 Speaker 1: collection of presidential memorabilia in his Greenwich Village apartment. What 99 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,120 Speaker 1: was sold to me as a cocktail clock commemorating the 100 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 1: end of Prohibition in featuring FDR captaining the Ship if 101 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:48,880 Speaker 1: you Will, a campaign neckerchief from the campaign of Benjamin 102 00:06:48,920 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 1: Harrison and his running mate Levi Morton, the Republican team 103 00:06:53,040 --> 00:06:58,039 Speaker 1: that ran in an admission ticket to the Senate impeachment 104 00:06:58,080 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: trial of our seventeenth President Andrew Johnson in April eight. 105 00:07:03,960 --> 00:07:07,280 Speaker 1: And the anchor to the collection, the Grover Cleveland that 106 00:07:07,400 --> 00:07:10,440 Speaker 1: inspired it all, who overlooks the city from his perch 107 00:07:10,760 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 1: where he's basted in domestic bliss for almost fifteen years, 108 00:07:15,320 --> 00:07:20,920 Speaker 1: without his authenticity ever coming into question. Cut to in 109 00:07:20,960 --> 00:07:23,320 Speaker 1: The New York Times came to do a piece about 110 00:07:23,320 --> 00:07:27,440 Speaker 1: my apartment on a short little feature, and I introduced 111 00:07:27,480 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: them to Grover Cleveland. They took a picture of me 112 00:07:30,160 --> 00:07:34,560 Speaker 1: next to Grover Cleveland. But then I got a call 113 00:07:35,240 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: from the writer of the article and she said, um, hey, 114 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,440 Speaker 1: we're just doing a little back checking, just want to 115 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 1: make sure that's Grover Cleveland. And I sort of reacted defensively, 116 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:45,360 Speaker 1: and I said, well, of course, it is who else 117 00:07:45,360 --> 00:07:48,480 Speaker 1: would it be? Sor? Okay, fine, fine, But then she 118 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,200 Speaker 1: called back the next day and she said, you know, 119 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: there's some concern that this isn't Grover Cleveland. My editor 120 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,239 Speaker 1: has some questions about it. And I said, now listen, 121 00:07:57,840 --> 00:08:00,560 Speaker 1: I'm telling you the tag on it said Grover Cleveland 122 00:08:00,560 --> 00:08:02,640 Speaker 1: back in two thousand when I bought him. So she 123 00:08:02,720 --> 00:08:05,360 Speaker 1: said okay, And then she called back the next day 124 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:08,760 Speaker 1: again and she said, this has gone way up the 125 00:08:08,840 --> 00:08:11,440 Speaker 1: chain and there is concern at the highest levels that 126 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:14,160 Speaker 1: this is not Grover Cleveland. And she said, why don't 127 00:08:14,200 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: we just call this a bust that Rockets says is 128 00:08:16,840 --> 00:08:21,040 Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland. I thought, all right, I can live with that, 129 00:08:21,080 --> 00:08:24,280 Speaker 1: I guess, but the seed of doubt had been planted. 130 00:08:26,120 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 1: Was he living with Grover Cleveland or with a stranger? 131 00:08:30,400 --> 00:08:33,400 Speaker 1: And then I went to the Marshfield, Missouri Cherry Blossom 132 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:37,960 Speaker 1: Festival um where I met George Cleveland, the grandson of 133 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:40,520 Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland. I thought, this is my chance, once and 134 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 1: for all to prove to myself in the New York 135 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:45,520 Speaker 1: Times that this is Grover Cleveland. I showed him a 136 00:08:45,520 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 1: picture of the bust on my phone. He looked at it. 137 00:08:48,520 --> 00:08:52,480 Speaker 1: He turned to me and he said, that's not my grandfather. 138 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,320 Speaker 1: When we come back, Road Show teams up with Mode 139 00:08:57,400 --> 00:09:00,120 Speaker 1: to figure out once and for all whose lightness Mo 140 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:10,719 Speaker 1: has been living with for the past twenty years. One 141 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: of the most satisfying parts of my job is helping 142 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 1: guests get answers to their burning questions about the objects 143 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:19,880 Speaker 1: they bring in. So, of course, when Mo agreed to 144 00:09:19,920 --> 00:09:22,320 Speaker 1: be on the show, I was eager to make good 145 00:09:22,320 --> 00:09:24,960 Speaker 1: on our promise to find out who the Grover Cleveland 146 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 1: bust was, if not Grover Cleveland. To do that, I 147 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:31,400 Speaker 1: asked Mo to meet me at Lillian Nassau Gallery in 148 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:34,360 Speaker 1: New York to visit with the praiser, Eric Silver. Moe 149 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 1: pulled up for the appraisal bust into on a little 150 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:41,160 Speaker 1: red wagon secured by suspenders no less. So Moow, what 151 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: did you bring me today? Well, I brought you Grover 152 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:48,520 Speaker 1: Cleveland or a bust of someone who I thought was 153 00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland. Very much so. The piece has quite a 154 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:54,880 Speaker 1: bit of quality and has a presence. So it was 155 00:09:54,920 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 1: done by a professional artist. It's not the work of 156 00:09:57,760 --> 00:10:00,480 Speaker 1: an amateur. I don't know if it's American, it could 157 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: be French. Italian, and so we just don't know. I mean, 158 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,640 Speaker 1: I don't know if he looks like any particular nationality, 159 00:10:07,679 --> 00:10:10,200 Speaker 1: but there's no no way of knowing, and that's going 160 00:10:10,280 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: to make the search that much more difficulty. So you 161 00:10:13,640 --> 00:10:15,320 Speaker 1: don't know who it is. I don't know. I wish 162 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,360 Speaker 1: I did, you know, and I was trying, you know, 163 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:19,760 Speaker 1: I tried to look up the artist, you know, see 164 00:10:19,800 --> 00:10:22,640 Speaker 1: what he you know who he was, and I just, uh, come, 165 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:25,080 Speaker 1: I didn't come up with anything. So there's just no 166 00:10:25,200 --> 00:10:29,240 Speaker 1: way of knowing. Moo took the news graciously, especially when 167 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 1: Eric's adjusted a way forward. If you expose it more, 168 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:35,960 Speaker 1: somebody might recognize it. I mean that's that's the remote possibility. 169 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 1: So what you're saying is there could be a sequel episode, 170 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: right exactly, right. I mean, you can include in the 171 00:10:41,960 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 1: bottom of your emails, you can have a little photo 172 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 1: of him, and you know, as people if they know 173 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,280 Speaker 1: who this person is. So it's just where we have 174 00:10:50,320 --> 00:10:52,800 Speaker 1: a lower third graphic. This is if you know who 175 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,400 Speaker 1: this is, right to exactly Eric at anw dot com, 176 00:10:56,559 --> 00:11:00,960 Speaker 1: right exactly, and we'll solve it because millions of people 177 00:11:00,960 --> 00:11:02,880 Speaker 1: watching Antinks road shows, So you have a you have 178 00:11:02,920 --> 00:11:08,239 Speaker 1: a great chance. Maybe someone could pinpoint that exceptionally bushie mustache, 179 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:11,600 Speaker 1: or maybe they'd noticed the little clues the sculptor left behind. 180 00:11:12,080 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: We see his first initials, and we see a date, 181 00:11:14,840 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: and then we see his first three letters of his 182 00:11:17,120 --> 00:11:20,120 Speaker 1: last name, the name of the artists, would no doubt 183 00:11:20,160 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 1: be a step in the right direction. On the side 184 00:11:23,080 --> 00:11:26,000 Speaker 1: of the bust are the letters P and S, followed 185 00:11:26,040 --> 00:11:30,079 Speaker 1: by A B, B, and right underneath the letters is 186 00:11:30,120 --> 00:11:40,920 Speaker 1: a date, and then it disappears. The thing is about 187 00:11:40,960 --> 00:11:44,560 Speaker 1: that a little insert on Eric is that Eric happens 188 00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:48,800 Speaker 1: to be one of the best generalists we have. Again, 189 00:11:49,080 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: my boss, Marsha Beemko, when he told you, Adam that 190 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:55,480 Speaker 1: he couldn't figure it out, our hearts sank because it 191 00:11:55,559 --> 00:11:59,040 Speaker 1: was like, oh no, if he If Eric can't do it, 192 00:11:59,720 --> 00:12:05,680 Speaker 1: we might be in a tough spot here. Yeah. When 193 00:12:05,679 --> 00:12:08,640 Speaker 1: the episode aired in May of two thousand twenty one, 194 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:11,800 Speaker 1: we put out a call for leads, and our viewers 195 00:12:11,880 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 1: were quick to share their theories. Perhaps it was Cecil 196 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,080 Speaker 1: John Rhodes, founder of de Beers, the Diamond Company and 197 00:12:19,120 --> 00:12:23,680 Speaker 1: the Rhodes Scholarship, William Faulkner and Mark Twain, and even 198 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:28,480 Speaker 1: John Ringling of Ringling Brothers Circus, all mustachioed, but none 199 00:12:28,559 --> 00:12:31,720 Speaker 1: checked out as our guy. So we were watching and 200 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: I like a challenge. Two people weren't giving up yet, 201 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,959 Speaker 1: and they weren't the random history buffs we thought might 202 00:12:39,040 --> 00:12:43,000 Speaker 1: write in for these viewers. Most not Grover Cleveland. Bust 203 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,959 Speaker 1: was more personal. I worked on his podcast. I was 204 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:51,120 Speaker 1: connected to him through a mutual friend. Megan Marcus, was 205 00:12:51,160 --> 00:12:55,240 Speaker 1: a producer from mose podcast Mobituaries. He once referred to 206 00:12:55,240 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: her as all of Agatha Christie's detectives in one when 207 00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,880 Speaker 1: you guys couldn't cure it out. I love to get 208 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:05,480 Speaker 1: to the bottom of things, and a knack for sleuthing 209 00:13:05,600 --> 00:13:08,440 Speaker 1: runs in the family. So Megan's sister Zoe got on 210 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 1: the case as well. I mean the first thing that 211 00:13:14,559 --> 00:13:17,960 Speaker 1: we started working off of was the crowd sourcing that 212 00:13:18,520 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 1: existed right after. And there was a name that came 213 00:13:21,360 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 1: up on Twitter and Zoe went to town on this. Yeah, 214 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:25,200 Speaker 1: I think I went off to town. I went to 215 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,240 Speaker 1: town in the wrong direction. Here's Zoe. But I saw 216 00:13:28,320 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: someone had said, oh you know who is It's Benjamin 217 00:13:31,080 --> 00:13:34,360 Speaker 1: Barker O'Dell, who was a governor of New York. That's 218 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 1: Benjamin Barker O'Dell Jr. Governor of New York from nineteen 219 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: o one to nineteen o four, not to be confused 220 00:13:41,559 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 1: with his father, Benjamin Barker O'Dell Senior, who also held 221 00:13:45,559 --> 00:13:50,040 Speaker 1: public office. It's plausible both had portrait bus made, but 222 00:13:50,200 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: O'Dell senior died five years before most bus was made, 223 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:57,319 Speaker 1: so he's out. His son, on the other hand, lived 224 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:01,880 Speaker 1: until ninety six, and he did have a mustache. And 225 00:14:01,960 --> 00:14:03,240 Speaker 1: I think they had a photo and I was like, 226 00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,280 Speaker 1: you know what, it does look like that, which, by 227 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:07,319 Speaker 1: the way, a lot of men with a mustache and 228 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,080 Speaker 1: BET are like they're all going to kind of look 229 00:14:09,120 --> 00:14:11,440 Speaker 1: like that. So that was like that, that's got to 230 00:14:11,440 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 1: be him, to be fair, Benjamin Barker O'Dell Junior's mustache 231 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: looks to be about the same density as our bus. 232 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:21,160 Speaker 1: But Megan wasn't fully convinced. I looked at the photo. 233 00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,960 Speaker 1: He looked too skinny, like this was a heftier. I 234 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,160 Speaker 1: thought it was artistic license that maybe you know, they 235 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 1: were just you know, well, it's hard because like all 236 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: the mustache thing is deceptive, so I was doubting it, 237 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: but I had nothing else to go off of and 238 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:42,680 Speaker 1: then somebody tweets out with the sculptor's name. That name 239 00:14:42,720 --> 00:14:45,680 Speaker 1: came from viewer Mark McCarron. It might have been a 240 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:48,080 Speaker 1: message that flashed up on the screen that said help 241 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: Morocca identify the sculpture, and I think it directed me 242 00:14:52,480 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: to a Twitter site. I don't remember exactly, but you know, 243 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: I got out my device and I started frantically trying 244 00:14:59,000 --> 00:15:03,320 Speaker 1: to act. Mark McCarron is the executive director of the 245 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 1: Historical Society in Torrington, Connecticut, and he's likely the only 246 00:15:08,000 --> 00:15:12,480 Speaker 1: person watching that night, possibly the only person period for 247 00:15:12,520 --> 00:15:16,760 Speaker 1: whom P S A B B rang a bell. When 248 00:15:16,800 --> 00:15:20,160 Speaker 1: mo was visiting the appraiser, I think the appraiser said, well, 249 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,960 Speaker 1: there's obviously a professional sculpture, but you know, I can't 250 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,720 Speaker 1: make out the signature and it's not somebody I'm familiar with. 251 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: And at that point the cameras zoomed in on the 252 00:15:30,480 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 1: sculpture and I immediately recognized it as Paulo as Sabate 253 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: because he worked in Torrington for many, many decades, and 254 00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 1: we have a pretty good collection of his work and 255 00:15:44,240 --> 00:15:48,520 Speaker 1: his he signed everything. Mark revealed just enough new information 256 00:15:48,680 --> 00:15:52,080 Speaker 1: from Megan to make some progress, because remember the thinking 257 00:15:52,120 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: at that point is that it's Benjamin Barker O'Dell. So 258 00:15:56,040 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: I'm trying to connect Odell with Abote, not finding any 259 00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 1: connection at all. So then I just do this is 260 00:16:03,040 --> 00:16:05,760 Speaker 1: my usual trick. I go on newspapers dot com and 261 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:09,280 Speaker 1: I just put in the sculptor's name and bust, and 262 00:16:09,320 --> 00:16:12,200 Speaker 1: I'd give a time here. We knew it was, so 263 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: I'm like, let me do a little bit before and 264 00:16:13,960 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: a little bit after. So the first hit that comes 265 00:16:18,320 --> 00:16:23,120 Speaker 1: up on newspapers dot Com is from March the Brooklyn 266 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: Daily Eagle, and there is a photo of this exact bust, 267 00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:31,320 Speaker 1: and it says, a bust portrait of Police Commissioner Richard e. 268 00:16:31,600 --> 00:16:35,280 Speaker 1: Enright has just been completed in bronze by Paolo Esabate. 269 00:16:35,960 --> 00:16:38,560 Speaker 1: The bust is of heroic size and will be presented 270 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:42,160 Speaker 1: to the Commissioner sometime during the summer. Its final resting 271 00:16:42,200 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 1: place has not been decided upon. Mr Abat is well 272 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,840 Speaker 1: known in congregational circles in Brooklyn, where he is in 273 00:16:48,920 --> 00:16:51,520 Speaker 1: charge of the Italian Church of the Redeemer, Clinton and 274 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: Carroll Streets. I mean, there's your proof, of course, Megan 275 00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: and Zoe were communicating every development to MO. It really 276 00:16:59,760 --> 00:17:03,920 Speaker 1: was while to see that sculpture, which is in my 277 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:06,600 Speaker 1: apartment and has been with me for so long, in 278 00:17:06,640 --> 00:17:11,760 Speaker 1: an archival photo um, because I come to believe that 279 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,239 Speaker 1: he just sort of via spontaneous generation, kind of was 280 00:17:16,359 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: born in that shop on the North Fork of Long 281 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:22,400 Speaker 1: Island where I bought him. I mean, I'd given up 282 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:25,600 Speaker 1: even imagining him in other settings, but to see him 283 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: in this setting with the sculptor um was really exciting. 284 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,119 Speaker 1: It was it was kind of thrilling that made the 285 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: hairs in the back of my neck stand up. So 286 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: we got our full circle moment, the satisfying answer we 287 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:42,880 Speaker 1: were all craving and a name to the face, Not 288 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:47,280 Speaker 1: Grover Cleveland, but Richard E. N Right, a man I 289 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:51,920 Speaker 1: had never heard of, but I did find someone who had. 290 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:56,719 Speaker 1: So my name is Larry Sullivan, and I'm Professor Emeritus 291 00:17:57,119 --> 00:18:03,280 Speaker 1: and also Team Chief Flight Brian and Professor Criminal Justice 292 00:18:03,800 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 1: from the John J. College of Criminal Justice's The Lloyd 293 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: Seeley Library at John J College of Criminal Justice is 294 00:18:11,240 --> 00:18:15,000 Speaker 1: home to an archive of Richard E. Enwright materials and 295 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,360 Speaker 1: it's only a few miles from most place. Now. Who 296 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,679 Speaker 1: who was Richard E. En Right. All Right was the 297 00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 1: first police commissioner that came to the racks. Five year 298 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: old and Right joined the NYPD in eight eventually becoming 299 00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: the first officer to rise through the ranks from lieutenant 300 00:18:34,080 --> 00:18:37,840 Speaker 1: to police commissioner in nineteen eighteen and serving through nine 301 00:18:38,800 --> 00:18:42,000 Speaker 1: when he retired. If you look at the list of 302 00:18:42,160 --> 00:18:45,159 Speaker 1: the years of New York Police commission she was one 303 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:48,240 Speaker 1: of the longest last. So with the with our bus 304 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,399 Speaker 1: with Moroccos bust having the year one inscribed on it, 305 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: can you just paint the picture of what was going 306 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:58,120 Speaker 1: on in New York City in the twenties. In New 307 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:02,080 Speaker 1: York was three. Then he speakeasies all over the place 308 00:19:02,160 --> 00:19:05,840 Speaker 1: to crooked politicians, and he had to deal with us. 309 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:09,639 Speaker 1: And that's probably one of these, uh, you know, his legacies. 310 00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,360 Speaker 1: I guess he was honest, which, as Larry pointed out, 311 00:19:13,600 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: was not a typical quality of Prohibition era police officers. 312 00:19:17,920 --> 00:19:21,520 Speaker 1: I mean, most of them would take payoffs. Two years 313 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,399 Speaker 1: into en Right's career as commissioner, the National Prohibition Act 314 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,400 Speaker 1: took effect. En Right, who was known for not tolerating graft, 315 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: cracked down on organized crime that became rampant during this 316 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: period and later when the police came under criticism for 317 00:19:37,600 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 1: ineffectively enforcing the National Prohibition Act, and Right made the 318 00:19:41,840 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: controversial decision to bring charges against members of the force. 319 00:19:47,240 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: But that wasn't all and Right is remembered for and 320 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,680 Speaker 1: there may be two or three points that stand out. 321 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:59,920 Speaker 1: One is ninety two he hosted the International Conference from 322 00:20:00,000 --> 00:20:03,359 Speaker 1: Police Choot. This was the first time such a conference 323 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:07,720 Speaker 1: had been held in the US, uh that the next year. 324 00:20:07,840 --> 00:20:14,119 Speaker 1: Digipol Interpol is the organization that coordinates between local police 325 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: departments in countries all over the world, and its founding 326 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:22,320 Speaker 1: can be traced back to n. Right. And also he 327 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: was a very advocate of printing. Fingerprint identification for criminal 328 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:30,919 Speaker 1: investigation had only just been introduced in Europe by the 329 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:34,320 Speaker 1: time and Right joined the police force in the eighteen nineties, 330 00:20:34,840 --> 00:20:37,320 Speaker 1: but it didn't take long for the novel system to 331 00:20:37,359 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 1: spread internationally, and by oh three, New York State prisons 332 00:20:41,920 --> 00:20:46,000 Speaker 1: were using the technique for criminal record purposes, and Right 333 00:20:46,200 --> 00:20:51,080 Speaker 1: envisioned fingerprints resolving identity questions of all kinds, not just 334 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,680 Speaker 1: within the context of crime. In nineteen n Right wrote 335 00:20:55,680 --> 00:21:00,680 Speaker 1: an article for Scientific American titled Everybody should be Fingerprinted? 336 00:21:01,000 --> 00:21:07,280 Speaker 1: Where he advocated for a universal system of fingerprinting. Early 337 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,199 Speaker 1: into retirement, and Right dabbled in fiction writing, publishing his 338 00:21:11,320 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 1: first book, Vultures of the Dark, a detective story based 339 00:21:15,359 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: on his own experiences in the NYPD. And although his 340 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,679 Speaker 1: career as a crime novelist didn't take off commercially, he 341 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:27,640 Speaker 1: did receive high praise from a fellow law enforcement official 342 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,960 Speaker 1: turned writer, William J. Flynn, who described and write as 343 00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:35,919 Speaker 1: a holy new writer whose prolific brain can evolve and 344 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:45,720 Speaker 1: depict fresh, sparkling detective situations. While we were learning of 345 00:21:45,840 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: en rights foray into crime fiction, Megan and Moe were 346 00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: doing some research of their own. Well, Megan Marcus ended 347 00:21:52,880 --> 00:21:56,640 Speaker 1: up sending me an article about his sentent becoming a 348 00:21:56,680 --> 00:22:00,840 Speaker 1: cop on Long Island. I think the first um since 349 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: Richard N. Right in that family to do so um. 350 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,120 Speaker 1: So I thought that was pretty cool, and I thought, well, 351 00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:09,720 Speaker 1: we could keep this thing going if I introduced this 352 00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:13,919 Speaker 1: young cop to the to the bust um. And of 353 00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:15,600 Speaker 1: course I was pleased to find out that he was 354 00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:19,679 Speaker 1: a particularly celebrated esteemed chief of police during Prohibition, at 355 00:22:19,680 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: a time when, of course, as anyone who's seen the 356 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 1: untouchable as the movie or the TV show can tell you, 357 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:27,880 Speaker 1: it was a time of a lot of crime. So 358 00:22:27,960 --> 00:22:36,560 Speaker 1: I'm happy to have him in my home. I'm glad 359 00:22:36,600 --> 00:22:38,440 Speaker 1: we are able to solve the mystery from at the 360 00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:40,879 Speaker 1: end of the day. Like I can't even believe this 361 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:45,399 Speaker 1: is the most unsatisfying appraisal that we might have done. Listen, 362 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,360 Speaker 1: sometimes stuff like this happens. He was such a good 363 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 1: sport about us failing to answer the question that day. 364 00:22:52,400 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: We don't have all the answers we have of them, 365 00:22:55,040 --> 00:22:58,239 Speaker 1: but sometimes we don't. I love that this one was 366 00:22:58,560 --> 00:23:05,520 Speaker 1: such a group effort to get to the answer. No 367 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:35,840 Speaker 1: yin It's store, we never in all. Watson Si de 368 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: Tours is a production of g b H in Boston 369 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:41,560 Speaker 1: and pr X. This episode was written and produced by 370 00:23:41,640 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 1: Isabel Hibbert. Our editor is Galen Bebe. Our senior producer 371 00:23:46,000 --> 00:23:49,960 Speaker 1: and sound designer is Ian Coss. Jocelyn Gonzalez is the 372 00:23:50,000 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 1: director of pr X Productions. Devin Maverick Robbins is the 373 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:56,800 Speaker 1: managing producer of podcast for g d H and Marsha 374 00:23:56,880 --> 00:24:00,600 Speaker 1: Benko is executive producer of Detours. I'm Your Host and 375 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:05,000 Speaker 1: co executive producer Adam Monahan. Our theme music is Once 376 00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: in a Century Storm by Will Daily from the album 377 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: National Throat. Thank you all for listening. Have a good one, 378 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:38,479 Speaker 1: g B A. I hope you enjoyed listening to this 379 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,120 Speaker 1: episode from season two of Detours from G B H 380 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:45,679 Speaker 1: and pr Rex. We'll be back soon with new episodes 381 00:24:45,800 --> 00:24:50,320 Speaker 1: of Mobituaries, available on Amazon Music or wherever you get 382 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:51,320 Speaker 1: your podcasts.