1 00:00:01,440 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Adam Gopnik is a close friend and my guest on 2 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:08,080 Speaker 1: this episode from the archive, recorded last December. This gives 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,560 Speaker 1: me the chance to tell you all that Adam will 4 00:00:10,600 --> 00:00:14,319 Speaker 1: be playing in his own, very funny and touching one 5 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: man show, Adam Gopnik's New York at Lincoln Center, from 6 00:00:18,120 --> 00:00:22,200 Speaker 1: October seventeenth through the twenty sixth. We can find tickets 7 00:00:22,239 --> 00:00:27,400 Speaker 1: online at Adamgopniknewyork dot com. I'm coming from London, so 8 00:00:27,440 --> 00:00:34,279 Speaker 1: I'll see you there. In the thirty four years at 9 00:00:34,280 --> 00:00:36,800 Speaker 1: Adam Gopnik and I have been friends. We have lived 10 00:00:36,840 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: in the same city, Paris, where he wrote his beautiful book, 11 00:00:39,960 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 1: Paris to the Moon. We have loved and then lost 12 00:00:43,080 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: our best friend, the art historian and curator Kirk Varnado. 13 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:49,919 Speaker 1: We've taken care of each other's children as if they 14 00:00:49,920 --> 00:00:53,520 Speaker 1: were our own, and sung show tunes together from every 15 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: Broadway musical because we know. 16 00:00:56,120 --> 00:00:57,200 Speaker 2: All the lyrics. 17 00:00:57,600 --> 00:01:00,240 Speaker 1: Most of all, we have never stopped cooking, eating, and 18 00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: talking about our passion for food. We may be separated 19 00:01:04,400 --> 00:01:07,440 Speaker 1: by an ocean, but we are always minutes and inches away. 20 00:01:08,080 --> 00:01:10,880 Speaker 2: All the while, Adam leads a terrific life in writing. 21 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:13,839 Speaker 1: Staff writer for the New Yorker and author of nine 22 00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:18,160 Speaker 1: books of non fiction, fiction and memoir. Next year, he 23 00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: will perform his one man show Talk Therapy in New 24 00:01:21,480 --> 00:01:24,760 Speaker 1: York City. Adam is here now with me in London. 25 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,760 Speaker 1: In four days, he's eaten in the River Cafe four times. 26 00:01:29,160 --> 00:01:31,600 Speaker 1: This morning we sang You've got to be taught from 27 00:01:31,600 --> 00:01:36,160 Speaker 1: South Pacific, Rainbow Connection from the Muppets, and I've never 28 00:01:36,200 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: been in love before from Guys and Dolls. Tonight, after 29 00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:43,000 Speaker 1: seeing Giant at the Royal Court, we will go home 30 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:46,959 Speaker 1: and cook to moto pasta my definition of a good friend. 31 00:01:47,319 --> 00:01:48,800 Speaker 2: Thank you, sir Adam. 32 00:01:48,920 --> 00:01:51,640 Speaker 1: You've chosen the recipe and it was from the very 33 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:54,400 Speaker 1: first cookbook we ever did, the River Cafe Cookbook, and 34 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:59,760 Speaker 1: the recipe you chose was penny with quick sausage sauce, which. 35 00:01:59,560 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 2: You like to beat. 36 00:02:00,600 --> 00:02:02,520 Speaker 3: I would love to read it, and I shouldd that 37 00:02:02,560 --> 00:02:05,920 Speaker 3: this is part of a diptick, as our historians would say, 38 00:02:05,920 --> 00:02:08,639 Speaker 3: with a penny with a slow sausage sauce. So that 39 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 3: is why it's quick. Two hundred and fifty grams of 40 00:02:11,440 --> 00:02:15,440 Speaker 3: penny regatta, two tablespoons of olive oil. Two red onions, 41 00:02:15,480 --> 00:02:20,399 Speaker 3: peeled and chopped, five sausages, meat crumbled, half a tablespoon 42 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:24,960 Speaker 3: of fresh rosemary, two small dried chilis, eight hundred grams 43 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:28,720 Speaker 3: of peeled plum tomatoes, one hundred and fifty mililters of cream, 44 00:02:29,040 --> 00:02:32,320 Speaker 3: and one hundred and twenty grams of parmesan freshly grated. 45 00:02:32,720 --> 00:02:35,359 Speaker 3: You heat the olive oil in the saucepan and you 46 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 3: fry the onion lightly. You add the sausage, rosemary, bay leaves, 47 00:02:40,040 --> 00:02:42,799 Speaker 3: and chili all together, frying them over a high heat, 48 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:46,800 Speaker 3: stirring to mash the sausages. You remove all but one 49 00:02:46,960 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 3: tablespoon of the fat and continue to cook for twenty minutes. 50 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 3: Add the tomatoes, stir and return to the boil. Then 51 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,800 Speaker 3: remove from the heat. Cook the penne in boiling salted water, 52 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 3: then drain and add directly to the sauce. Stir the 53 00:03:01,760 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 3: cream into the sauce with the penny and half the parmesan, 54 00:03:04,840 --> 00:03:08,639 Speaker 3: and then you serve the pusta with the remaining parmesan 55 00:03:08,720 --> 00:03:09,480 Speaker 3: grated on top. 56 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:11,959 Speaker 1: When I asked you for a recipe that you'd like 57 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:16,640 Speaker 1: to read Ruthie's Table four, you immediately said, I know 58 00:03:16,760 --> 00:03:19,040 Speaker 1: exactly what I want to do. I want to do 59 00:03:19,200 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: the penne with quick sausage sauce. 60 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,079 Speaker 2: And I was wondering why. 61 00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:25,960 Speaker 3: Well, because it was nineteen ninety four. We had just 62 00:03:26,040 --> 00:03:29,280 Speaker 3: moved to Paris, my wife Martha and our little son 63 00:03:29,400 --> 00:03:33,200 Speaker 3: Luke had just moved to Paris then, and we got 64 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:37,040 Speaker 3: your book, and by the strangest kind of syncopated cooking beat, 65 00:03:37,400 --> 00:03:40,920 Speaker 3: I started cooking your food in our Parisian kitchen, although 66 00:03:40,960 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 3: I had been raised on French food, and there was 67 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:47,880 Speaker 3: something about the logic and grammar of this recipe that 68 00:03:48,800 --> 00:03:52,480 Speaker 3: was inspiring and explained so much. In other words, you 69 00:03:52,560 --> 00:03:56,040 Speaker 3: were taking the pungent things, the sweet onions, and then 70 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:59,400 Speaker 3: the pungent sausages, and the hot pepper which I had 71 00:03:59,400 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 3: never cooked with before, the dried parakeet peppers, and making 72 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 3: all of that. Then you were reducing it with the 73 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: wine and then adding the tomatoes, and that basic pattern, right, 74 00:04:12,720 --> 00:04:15,880 Speaker 3: you have and it can be anchovies and. 75 00:04:16,040 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 2: Garlic, get the flavor. 76 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:22,840 Speaker 3: Tomato right, then cook it down with wine until it's 77 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 3: almost dry, and then adding tomatoes and then doing that. 78 00:04:26,360 --> 00:04:29,919 Speaker 3: How many times in a lifetime do we do that? 79 00:04:30,200 --> 00:04:34,600 Speaker 3: And that basic grammar, the savory flavors, the wine reduction, 80 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,400 Speaker 3: the addition of tomato or cream or whatever it might be, 81 00:04:39,800 --> 00:04:42,599 Speaker 3: is somehow so fundamental. It was like this for me 82 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,080 Speaker 3: was a foundational recipe. Once I knew how to do this, 83 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 3: I felt that I could do almost anything. So that's 84 00:04:48,680 --> 00:04:50,400 Speaker 3: why I love it so much, even though, to be 85 00:04:50,440 --> 00:04:52,840 Speaker 3: honest with you, I probably couldn't, so to speak, sell 86 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,960 Speaker 3: it at my dining table today because the ladies I 87 00:04:56,000 --> 00:04:59,640 Speaker 3: cook for, Martha and Olivia, are both pescatarians at this point, 88 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:00,680 Speaker 3: so I couldn't. 89 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:02,839 Speaker 2: But do you ever have it? Make it for yourself? 90 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,200 Speaker 3: I always make it for myself when I'm alone. I 91 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,960 Speaker 3: either make this or the matricianas Mike. 92 00:05:08,040 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 1: Can you get the Lucunega sausages in New York? 93 00:05:10,800 --> 00:05:14,240 Speaker 3: You can get good sausages. You get good Italian sausages 94 00:05:14,480 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 3: in New York. But those are when I'm home alone. 95 00:05:16,920 --> 00:05:18,280 Speaker 3: That's what I make for myself. 96 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:22,279 Speaker 1: So you've written, just written a brilliant piece about the election. 97 00:05:22,839 --> 00:05:25,760 Speaker 1: You've written about the politics of our country. You've written 98 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: about Paris. You've written and yet you are uniquely interested, 99 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: I think, in writing and writing about food, and so 100 00:05:34,800 --> 00:05:37,479 Speaker 1: food comes into your musical. I mean, there aren't very 101 00:05:37,520 --> 00:05:41,680 Speaker 1: many musicals about a restaurant. There aren't very many articles 102 00:05:41,720 --> 00:05:43,320 Speaker 1: in the New Yorker. Well, now there are a few 103 00:05:43,360 --> 00:05:46,800 Speaker 1: more about food. Tell us about one of your books 104 00:05:46,839 --> 00:05:49,400 Speaker 1: that you've written where food has come into your book. 105 00:05:49,720 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 3: I wrote an entire book just about the philosophy of 106 00:05:52,480 --> 00:05:55,119 Speaker 3: eating called The Table Comes First, which was the title 107 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:58,760 Speaker 3: was given to me by our friend Furcus of Saint 108 00:05:58,800 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: John because we were having elevenses once and he said, 109 00:06:03,400 --> 00:06:05,880 Speaker 3: genuine he was genuinely perturbed. He said, there is this 110 00:06:05,960 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: young couple I know, he said, and they just getting 111 00:06:08,440 --> 00:06:10,560 Speaker 3: married and they want to buy a bed. He said, 112 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:13,279 Speaker 3: don't they know the table comes first. They're having a 113 00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:15,440 Speaker 3: bed but no table. And I thought, oh, what a 114 00:06:15,440 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 3: beautiful thought. The table comes first. It's the altar in 115 00:06:19,120 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 3: the raft of human existence. So for me, my fascination 116 00:06:23,240 --> 00:06:26,440 Speaker 3: with food, I think comes from two you know, sharply 117 00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 3: opposed places. On the one end, just pure reed. I 118 00:06:29,279 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 3: love to eat, and I see funny. 119 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: That greed comes into food. I have a friend who 120 00:06:35,040 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 1: had a nanny and she overheard her child who said, 121 00:06:37,920 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 1: I'd want, you know, a biscuit, and she'd eaten like 122 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,599 Speaker 1: five biscuits, and she heard the nanny saying, you know, 123 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: you're a greedy little girl. 124 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: And she fired her good. She fired it right on 125 00:06:48,160 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 2: the spot. 126 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:51,279 Speaker 1: She said, you know what, I don't want somebody telling 127 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:55,159 Speaker 1: my child that because they want more food that they're greedy. 128 00:06:55,200 --> 00:06:58,320 Speaker 1: And for me, as an American and maybe that's something different, 129 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:01,599 Speaker 1: is that greediness always meant that you want more money. 130 00:07:01,880 --> 00:07:04,560 Speaker 1: So I think it's interesting the idea of sort of 131 00:07:04,600 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 1: what reedy being involved in dispense. 132 00:07:07,520 --> 00:07:10,320 Speaker 3: One of the ways in which French culinary culture is 133 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,360 Speaker 3: superior to any other is, you know, you use the 134 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 3: word gourmand to mean greedy, and when you saymond, you mean, oh, 135 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,720 Speaker 3: he really loves to eat. And the French word gourmet, 136 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 3: which Americans and Brits have adapted, French folks don't really 137 00:07:22,760 --> 00:07:25,840 Speaker 3: use very much. You wouldn't say somebody's a gourmet unless 138 00:07:25,840 --> 00:07:29,679 Speaker 3: they were an American. But gourmand, yeah, though it means greedy, 139 00:07:29,720 --> 00:07:34,960 Speaker 3: and that sense is a totally positive benediction. Ten you know, 140 00:07:35,280 --> 00:07:38,720 Speaker 3: means really loves food. So that's one part of my 141 00:07:38,880 --> 00:07:40,640 Speaker 3: fascination with food. 142 00:07:40,960 --> 00:07:44,560 Speaker 1: I can't remember many musicals that I've seen they have 143 00:07:44,720 --> 00:07:48,560 Speaker 1: restaurant scenes. I've interviewed actors who actually had to cook 144 00:07:48,640 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 1: on stage, or eat on stage, or. 145 00:07:50,960 --> 00:07:52,720 Speaker 2: Food is a part of the drama. 146 00:07:53,200 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 1: But you've actually created a musical about a restaurant called 147 00:07:57,280 --> 00:07:57,840 Speaker 1: Our Table. 148 00:07:58,160 --> 00:07:59,120 Speaker 2: Can you tell me about it? 149 00:07:59,160 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 3: I'd love to. I wrote it with the great Broadway 150 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,600 Speaker 3: composer David Shire, and it was inspired not so much 151 00:08:05,640 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 3: by my book about cooking, but out of a piece 152 00:08:08,160 --> 00:08:12,440 Speaker 3: I wrote right after nine to eleven about a cook's contest, 153 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 3: and I was inspired by the two chefs, particularly Peter Hoffman, 154 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 3: who ran a beautiful little restaurant with his wife called Savoy, 155 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:22,800 Speaker 3: and David Waltuck, who also ran a beautiful, originally very 156 00:08:22,840 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 3: small restaurant with his wife called Chanterrelle, and the way 157 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,040 Speaker 3: that they poured themselves into these restaurants, that they poured 158 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:33,559 Speaker 3: all of their soul and their selves into these restaurants. 159 00:08:33,760 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 3: But of course they were up against the inexorable constraints 160 00:08:37,720 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 3: of New York City real estate, which basically says, if 161 00:08:40,040 --> 00:08:42,840 Speaker 3: you've had a successful ten year run, we're going to 162 00:08:43,280 --> 00:08:46,320 Speaker 3: quadruple your income. And so I got to thinking about 163 00:08:46,840 --> 00:08:49,679 Speaker 3: about that. And Peter had been at cooking school with 164 00:08:49,880 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 3: Tony Bourdain and they were dear friends, but they defined 165 00:08:54,520 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 3: totally opposite ends of the cooking experience, Peter, an idealist 166 00:09:00,240 --> 00:09:04,400 Speaker 3: making his perfect food every night for a small clientele, 167 00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 3: Tony Boordena on televisions. I wondered what would happen if 168 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:11,360 Speaker 3: Tony Bourdena came back to rescue Peter's kitchen. And let's 169 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,720 Speaker 3: imagine that he had had an affair with Peter's wife 170 00:09:13,800 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: twenty years before and they didn't know about it. And 171 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 3: so that was the premise of our table. But what 172 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 3: I particularly wanted to do was write about the sort 173 00:09:21,679 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 3: of micro mechanics of a restaurant, which I observed from 174 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:29,520 Speaker 3: watching you and from watching other friends. I think that 175 00:09:29,720 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 3: chefs are the last true artists of the old fashioned kind, 176 00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:39,559 Speaker 3: right because they're simultaneously trying to be inventive artistic. They 177 00:09:39,559 --> 00:09:42,000 Speaker 3: have a high standard, but at the same time they 178 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 3: lived to please the way Shakespeare lived to please. You 179 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:46,760 Speaker 3: can't say, though a poet can say, well, if you 180 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 3: don't like it, tough. Chefs are both artists and their 181 00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:54,640 Speaker 3: inventiveness and artisans in their commitment to a craft that 182 00:09:54,720 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 3: has to please. So I wanted to articulate that, but 183 00:09:58,200 --> 00:10:02,440 Speaker 3: also capture not the kind of the splendid and extravagant 184 00:10:02,480 --> 00:10:05,119 Speaker 3: gestures of a kitchen, which you often see on television, 185 00:10:05,440 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 3: but all the tiny little you said to me once, Ruthie. 186 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 3: It is one of my favorite sayings, and I put 187 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:14,800 Speaker 3: it into the show. Every table is a world, and 188 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,600 Speaker 3: that's what a true restaurateur understands. Every table is something 189 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:22,800 Speaker 3: is going on, and that a great host hass to recognize. 190 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,640 Speaker 3: So I wrote a song with David Shire called Chopping Onions, 191 00:10:26,679 --> 00:10:31,360 Speaker 3: Folding Napkins, in which the husband whose chef is in 192 00:10:31,400 --> 00:10:33,839 Speaker 3: the kitchen chopping onions and his wife, who runs the 193 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,120 Speaker 3: front of the house is in the dining room folding 194 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:39,240 Speaker 3: napkins getting ready for the service, and at the same 195 00:10:39,280 --> 00:10:42,760 Speaker 3: time they're having a fight about her old boyfriend. And 196 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 3: of all the things I've ever written, I love the 197 00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 3: micro drama of that because it struck me as true. 198 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:51,520 Speaker 2: We can listen to this on Spotify. 199 00:10:51,679 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 3: On Spotify our table, I narrate it and we have 200 00:10:54,080 --> 00:10:58,680 Speaker 3: a wonderful cast Melissa Erico, Andy Taylor, Constantine Marulis, and 201 00:10:58,800 --> 00:11:02,199 Speaker 3: it's you know, it's it's a show about a restaurant 202 00:11:02,480 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 3: and infidelity. Infidelity is probably more interesting. 203 00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 1: I've been sulted by that nothing more interesting than a restaurant. 204 00:11:10,840 --> 00:11:12,400 Speaker 3: I just wanted to write about the restaurant, but the 205 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:15,360 Speaker 3: director kept saying, no, no, no, we need lovers and we 206 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:15,920 Speaker 3: need all. 207 00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:18,520 Speaker 2: Of You know, what about food is seduction. 208 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 3: I my wife seduced me with a bottle of champagne 209 00:11:23,760 --> 00:11:26,080 Speaker 3: when I was about nineteen. She chased me around the 210 00:11:26,400 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 3: Christmas tree with a bottle of Bum's Extra Dry. So 211 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,880 Speaker 3: we kind of got that done. Of course, it's it 212 00:11:32,000 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 3: is seduction always. You know I loved Do you remember 213 00:11:34,679 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 3: the first meal you cooked from Martha? Oh, my gosh, yes, 214 00:11:37,679 --> 00:11:40,960 Speaker 3: I cooked her. I was so such a pretentious kid, 215 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:47,079 Speaker 3: and probably still am. I cooked her a kishe because 216 00:11:47,080 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 3: I was learning to bake from my in my mother's kitchen, 217 00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: her recipe. But in the years since, Martha has one 218 00:11:55,040 --> 00:11:57,960 Speaker 3: favorite meal which I cook her whenever I want to 219 00:11:58,280 --> 00:12:02,200 Speaker 3: please her, seduce more than please. And that is something 220 00:12:02,240 --> 00:12:04,080 Speaker 3: I learned to do in France, which is a good 221 00:12:04,160 --> 00:12:09,160 Speaker 3: roast chicken pules depress in France, with carrots with cumin 222 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 3: and orange potatoes roasted under the chicken and a broccoli 223 00:12:14,800 --> 00:12:19,240 Speaker 3: puree and then a caramelized garlic sauce. You know, and 224 00:12:19,320 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 3: if I know that that will always work. 225 00:12:22,320 --> 00:12:32,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, you said that you were raised on French food. 226 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:34,560 Speaker 1: Where were you born and what did you. 227 00:12:34,840 --> 00:12:38,520 Speaker 3: I was born in Philadelphia because my parents were graduate 228 00:12:38,559 --> 00:12:43,320 Speaker 3: students at the University of Pennsylvania, and my mother, who's 229 00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:44,600 Speaker 3: an extraordinary woman. 230 00:12:44,520 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 2: So they were young. 231 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 3: They were young, and they came from very simple backgrounds. 232 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:53,560 Speaker 3: My grandparents were immigrants, on my father's side from Russia 233 00:12:53,840 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 3: Russian Jews, and on my mother's side from the Levant. 234 00:12:57,920 --> 00:13:00,880 Speaker 3: They were Sephardic Jews. On that side they had been 235 00:13:01,080 --> 00:13:06,679 Speaker 3: all around from Hebron to Baghdad and beyond. The previous 236 00:13:06,720 --> 00:13:09,960 Speaker 3: generation actually in Lisbon. My grandmother, who I knew very well, 237 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:13,600 Speaker 3: was born in Lisbon. In any case, truly, they were 238 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:18,880 Speaker 3: wandering Jews, and that's the background. But my mom, who 239 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,280 Speaker 3: was an extraordinarily gifted woman in the manner of so 240 00:13:22,360 --> 00:13:27,560 Speaker 3: many women of her generation, latched onto French cooking and 241 00:13:27,600 --> 00:13:29,600 Speaker 3: it was fascinating because she was getting her PhD. She 242 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,880 Speaker 3: had six children. In linguistics, in linguistics, in formal logic. 243 00:13:33,960 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 3: She was one of the early students of or researchers 244 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:42,800 Speaker 3: in artificial languages and in computer translation, the stuff that 245 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:45,120 Speaker 3: you get now on Google in a minute. She spent 246 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,160 Speaker 3: a long time working on that side of things, and 247 00:13:48,160 --> 00:13:51,480 Speaker 3: then eventually became very well known for her work in 248 00:13:52,520 --> 00:13:54,959 Speaker 3: the genetics of language. She discovered one of the first 249 00:13:55,040 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 3: chromosomes that directly affect the way we form sentences in 250 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:02,080 Speaker 3: any case. In addition into that, she was a passionate 251 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:04,880 Speaker 3: nightly cook, and like so many women of her generation, 252 00:14:05,040 --> 00:14:08,840 Speaker 3: she discovered Julia Child and French cooking in the mid sixties. 253 00:14:09,000 --> 00:14:11,680 Speaker 3: Explained to Julia Child, I guess we should. In fact, 254 00:14:11,720 --> 00:14:13,960 Speaker 3: I did a little piece not long ago, long piece 255 00:14:13,960 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 3: actually for the New Yorker about Judith Jones, who was 256 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 3: Julia Child's editor, who discovered her really out of a 257 00:14:21,360 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 3: slush pile of a rejected book and saw that it 258 00:14:23,720 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 3: could be something great. Julia Child was the American doyenne 259 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,200 Speaker 3: of French cooking, wrote had a TV series called The 260 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 3: French Chef. Like all people who are going on television, 261 00:14:33,760 --> 00:14:36,720 Speaker 3: her great gift was complete un self consciousness. She was 262 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:41,640 Speaker 3: sloppy and gray at beautiful high boys. Then she educated. 263 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 1: Dropped a chicken famously. She was such a kind of 264 00:14:44,680 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: total change to what the American cook, domestic cook. 265 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 3: The Benny Crocker cook. Yes, exactly too. Now you now 266 00:14:52,520 --> 00:14:55,240 Speaker 3: chopped the ratits. Oh no, here's the joe. It's on 267 00:14:55,280 --> 00:15:00,200 Speaker 3: the floor. And it was wonderful and it liberated an 268 00:15:00,280 --> 00:15:03,600 Speaker 3: entire generation. And my mom is a perfectionist, and she 269 00:15:04,040 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 3: just became a great French cook. And when I say, 270 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:09,560 Speaker 3: I mean all the things that we would never even 271 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:13,600 Speaker 3: do now, like beef Wellington, you know, or kleavac of salmon, 272 00:15:14,280 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 3: or turnado rossini, you know, all of those things that 273 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 3: belong to the past of French cooking. Now she did. 274 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 3: And her great triumph was a grand Marnier soufle, which 275 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:27,120 Speaker 3: to this day I would still say is the single 276 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 3: I will put a special golden border around the lemon 277 00:15:31,000 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 3: tarte and chocolate nemesis here at the River Cafe. But 278 00:15:33,840 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 3: was spectacular. And during the pandemic, when Martha and I 279 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 3: were alone, as all of us were, I set myself 280 00:15:40,840 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 3: the task of mastering my mother's gramarnieresu, Do you. 281 00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 2: Have a recipe? 282 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:45,160 Speaker 3: I have her recipe? 283 00:15:45,360 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: Did she write it down. 284 00:15:46,240 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 3: For She wrote it down for me. But it's a 285 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,240 Speaker 3: somewhat metaphysical recipe because the key moment in it is 286 00:15:51,280 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 3: she says, beat the egg whites until they are not 287 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 3: truly stiff and yet not entirely soft, which is a 288 00:15:58,000 --> 00:16:02,400 Speaker 3: metaphysical zone to try and arrive at right and over time, 289 00:16:02,440 --> 00:16:04,720 Speaker 3: I just did it by trial and error. And she 290 00:16:04,800 --> 00:16:08,360 Speaker 3: had one very smart you know, with the colin French 291 00:16:08,360 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 3: and Astus's hint, which is to have the oven at 292 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,760 Speaker 3: four hundred degrees fahirneight and then turn it down once 293 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 3: this alay is in, and astonishingly it makes for it 294 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 3: makes for much better loft on it. But my mama 295 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:25,400 Speaker 3: cooked every night for her six children and husband, and 296 00:16:25,440 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 3: she loved to shop down in Montreal. We moved to 297 00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:31,760 Speaker 3: Montreal when I was eleven because my parents got jobs 298 00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,200 Speaker 3: at McGill University. As I say, and she, you know, 299 00:16:36,560 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 3: I have nothing but memories of her cooking all the time. 300 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:43,240 Speaker 3: And on my thirteenth birthday, she knew how much I 301 00:16:43,280 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: loved to eat, because I was the kid in the 302 00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 3: family who was always greediest of all. And she said, 303 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,280 Speaker 3: what's your favorite thing for dinner? And I said beef 304 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:54,280 Speaker 3: strugging off because it really was my favorite thing at 305 00:16:54,280 --> 00:16:56,280 Speaker 3: that point. She said, you're going to make it for 306 00:16:56,320 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 3: your own birthday dinner. And she showed me each step 307 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:02,720 Speaker 3: along the way. Startaging the peppers and the onions, and 308 00:17:02,720 --> 00:17:06,399 Speaker 3: then the beef, and making the sauce with stock and 309 00:17:07,880 --> 00:17:11,560 Speaker 3: tomato paste and sour cream, and then the sheer magic 310 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 3: of that transformation, the movement from raw to cooked and 311 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:20,240 Speaker 3: then from raw to cooked to delicious was overwhelming for me. 312 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: Was that a rare occasion? Then to bring her children 313 00:17:22,480 --> 00:17:23,119 Speaker 1: into the kitchen? 314 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,480 Speaker 3: No, we were in there all the time. The only 315 00:17:25,520 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 3: problem was my mother is, bless her, an extremely impatient woman, 316 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:31,679 Speaker 3: which is one reason why she got those things done. 317 00:17:31,960 --> 00:17:35,959 Speaker 3: And so she would always yell at you, not in 318 00:17:36,000 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 3: an angry way, but you know how that is. We 319 00:17:39,040 --> 00:17:40,679 Speaker 3: all do it in the kitchen. I need the salt, No, 320 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:42,920 Speaker 3: I need it now, I need you know. And as 321 00:17:42,920 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 3: a consequence, very few people could quite take the emotional 322 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:50,960 Speaker 3: heat in her kitchen, and I inherited all of her impatience. 323 00:17:51,280 --> 00:17:54,760 Speaker 3: And as a consequence, everyone of my immediate family have 324 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:56,880 Speaker 3: tried to be my soux chef and they've all quit, 325 00:17:57,160 --> 00:18:00,600 Speaker 3: all walked out. And what about your father did No, 326 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 3: my dad didn't cook at all, but he loved my 327 00:18:03,040 --> 00:18:03,720 Speaker 3: mother's cooking. 328 00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: So you grew up in this house of six children 329 00:18:07,040 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: your parents is incredibly dynamic and interesting, and meal times 330 00:18:11,359 --> 00:18:13,880 Speaker 1: where all of you, eight of you sat down every night. 331 00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 3: It was part of the beauty of my upbringing, and 332 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,920 Speaker 3: it's something I took with me and have been probably 333 00:18:21,160 --> 00:18:25,040 Speaker 3: unduly religious about. With my own family. We always had 334 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:28,760 Speaker 3: dinner together, and dinner was always delicious, and it was 335 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:32,399 Speaker 3: always a debating society, and it was always a community, 336 00:18:32,440 --> 00:18:36,600 Speaker 3: and there were always politics being played out, older children, 337 00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:41,679 Speaker 3: younger children, middle children, the middle children. Now I'll say 338 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:44,440 Speaker 3: bitterly that the older children, my sister Allison, and myself 339 00:18:44,480 --> 00:18:47,600 Speaker 3: were competing for my father's attention. But whatever was going 340 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:49,920 Speaker 3: on at the table, it was always going on. In 341 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 3: that sense that the dinner table is the altar and 342 00:18:53,800 --> 00:18:56,960 Speaker 3: sacrament of family life is something that I've taken forward 343 00:18:57,000 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 3: with me into my own existence. To my children's enormous frustration, 344 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:04,840 Speaker 3: because they became accustomed. At eight fifteen am, as they 345 00:19:04,840 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 3: were leaving for school, bleary eyed, exhausted, barely able to 346 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,879 Speaker 3: keep themselves together, I'd say, what would you like for 347 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,080 Speaker 3: dinner tonight? Would you like the salmon with lentils? Or 348 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 3: I can do I can do a roast chicken, but 349 00:19:16,600 --> 00:19:18,879 Speaker 3: I just need to know so I can go shop 350 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 3: for it. And then they said salmon do. 351 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 1: It growing up in a family where meals were taken together, 352 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,159 Speaker 1: or your mother may be willing to do. You remember 353 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:33,880 Speaker 1: leaving the comfort of home when you went to McGill 354 00:19:34,280 --> 00:19:38,399 Speaker 1: and being exposed to completely different world. What was that 355 00:19:38,560 --> 00:19:43,680 Speaker 1: like When McGill was was home, so it was I lived, say. 356 00:19:44,600 --> 00:19:47,240 Speaker 3: Martha, my wife and I were both at McGill together, 357 00:19:47,440 --> 00:19:49,920 Speaker 3: but we it's a Canadian thing, you know, go away 358 00:19:49,920 --> 00:19:52,679 Speaker 3: to school, you go nearby. But when we moved to 359 00:19:52,760 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 3: New York in the summer of nineteen eighty, we had 360 00:19:55,960 --> 00:19:58,360 Speaker 3: just graduated, and we got on a bus that said 361 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,480 Speaker 3: New York City like in a four He's musical, and 362 00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:03,960 Speaker 3: my dad saw us off. He thought it was a 363 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 3: mad adventure. We were going to go live in New York. 364 00:20:06,720 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 3: And he said to me as I got on the bus, 365 00:20:09,320 --> 00:20:11,120 Speaker 3: he said, just remember when you get to New York, 366 00:20:11,440 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 3: never underestimate the other person's insecurities. 367 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:15,800 Speaker 2: As a general. 368 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:19,080 Speaker 3: As a general piece of advice. And it's the best 369 00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 3: advice I've ever gotten. 370 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,080 Speaker 2: It didn't advise you where to eat. 371 00:20:22,240 --> 00:20:25,000 Speaker 1: I thought you might say, no, you forget to go 372 00:20:25,119 --> 00:20:25,680 Speaker 1: to Louisia. 373 00:20:27,040 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 3: The thing that inspired me when we got to New 374 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 3: York was a writer actually was Calvin Trillin, bless him, 375 00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:36,199 Speaker 3: and he wrote beautifully about sort of folk dining in 376 00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:39,360 Speaker 3: New York Russen Daughters, the Great smoke Fish impo him 377 00:20:39,880 --> 00:20:42,880 Speaker 3: the local Italian restaurants. But I arrived in New York 378 00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 3: and I had to cook. We had a tiny basement apartment. 379 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 3: It was nine feet by eleven. No one believes this 380 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,040 Speaker 3: when I tell it, but we lived there for three years. 381 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:51,640 Speaker 3: The size of this. 382 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,160 Speaker 2: Tape About the size of this room. 383 00:20:53,359 --> 00:20:55,360 Speaker 3: Yes, oh, oh my god, this room would have been 384 00:20:55,400 --> 00:20:58,480 Speaker 3: a mansion. No, it's half the size of this room. Yeah, 385 00:20:58,680 --> 00:21:00,679 Speaker 3: it's half the size of this room. I did a 386 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 3: one man show once where I came out cold and 387 00:21:03,400 --> 00:21:07,040 Speaker 3: lay down in blue tape, a nine by eleven rectangle. 388 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:09,399 Speaker 3: Then I exited. I came back on and said, this 389 00:21:09,480 --> 00:21:11,560 Speaker 3: is the room my wife and I lived in for 390 00:21:11,600 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 3: three years when we came to New York. But I 391 00:21:14,440 --> 00:21:17,480 Speaker 3: was determined to do nothing but the best cooking. So 392 00:21:17,520 --> 00:21:20,000 Speaker 3: we had this tiny little stove in an unventilated nine 393 00:21:20,000 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 3: by eleven room, and I would do not you know, 394 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:26,080 Speaker 3: you know, heat and serve things. I would do, you know, 395 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:30,720 Speaker 3: tuno pav or you know, a whole roast chicken, in 396 00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:34,280 Speaker 3: this tiny eleven and the whole room would fill with smoke, 397 00:21:34,400 --> 00:21:36,639 Speaker 3: right so you'd open the one window we had and 398 00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:40,000 Speaker 3: the smoke would pour out onto the pavement of eighty 399 00:21:40,040 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 3: seventh Street. 400 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,399 Speaker 2: And you're a student at. 401 00:21:44,400 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: You knew you wanted to be an art historian. Did 402 00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: you study art? 403 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,640 Speaker 3: I did. I studied art history, and I was accepted 404 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,880 Speaker 3: to a pH d program at the Institute of Fine 405 00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,800 Speaker 3: Arts at New York University. But for me, that was 406 00:21:56,920 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 3: just a mask. It was a beard. I wanted to 407 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:02,679 Speaker 3: be a writer, an essayist in the songwriter. Those were 408 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,199 Speaker 3: the two things I wanted. But it was a way 409 00:22:04,240 --> 00:22:06,080 Speaker 3: of getting to New York. I had a fellowship to 410 00:22:06,119 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 3: go to NYU. But then my first day, my first 411 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 3: fall at NYU, at the Institute, where I intended just 412 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,320 Speaker 3: to pass through and kind of wave quickly on my 413 00:22:15,400 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 3: way to the New Yorker, actually I met Kirk Varnado, 414 00:22:19,720 --> 00:22:23,080 Speaker 3: who was for both of us, a best friend, who 415 00:22:23,160 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: was the most inspired I get for clemped thinking of 416 00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,879 Speaker 3: that now, a teacher who has ever lived. He was 417 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,560 Speaker 3: a great art historian, became the chief curator of the 418 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:36,760 Speaker 3: Museum of Modern Art eventually, and he was such an 419 00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 3: inspiring teacher and mentor and model that it became a 420 00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 3: kind of diversion in my life for the next ten 421 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,920 Speaker 3: years that I actually did my degrees in art history 422 00:22:46,920 --> 00:22:48,960 Speaker 3: and we ended up doing a big show together at 423 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 3: the Museum of Modern Art. 424 00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 1: Do you remember eating with him? 425 00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 3: Oh, my god. Kirk loved as you know, loved good food, 426 00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 3: and he loved French culture, not just French cuisine, but 427 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:00,600 Speaker 3: French culture. And it was the first time in my 428 00:23:00,640 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 3: life we would go out for dinner. And we were, 429 00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,000 Speaker 3: you know, kids living in a basement and Kirk was 430 00:23:05,000 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 3: a young professor, wasn't that he had, you know, a 431 00:23:07,280 --> 00:23:09,160 Speaker 3: lot of money or anything. And he has just gotten 432 00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 3: married to Ellen Zimmerman, his extraordinary artist wife. And we 433 00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:16,000 Speaker 3: would go out for dinner and have a bottle of 434 00:23:16,000 --> 00:23:19,320 Speaker 3: white wine, champagne to start, bottle of white wine, bottle 435 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 3: of red wine something afterwards it was set anything. 436 00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:25,320 Speaker 2: It sounds like, you said, a bottle of red wine. 437 00:23:25,320 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 3: Well, we would go, you know, we would really we 438 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:30,760 Speaker 3: would eat well. And there was a restaurant in Washington, 439 00:23:31,080 --> 00:23:34,359 Speaker 3: DC that we went to once called the Paviallon, like 440 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:38,520 Speaker 3: the old French place in New York. And uh, the 441 00:23:38,600 --> 00:23:42,080 Speaker 3: Kirk loved. He loved the intensity of that, he loved 442 00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:45,160 Speaker 3: the expansiveness of it. He loved everything that a great 443 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: French meal stood for as a piece of the history 444 00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 3: of the pluralism of pleasures and so on. And among 445 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:56,119 Speaker 3: the happiest days of my life, in which I believe 446 00:23:56,200 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 3: you participated too, is that when we lived in France, 447 00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,920 Speaker 3: we had a tradition whenever Kirk and Ellen were there 448 00:24:02,960 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 3: that we would have Cathedral in the lunch and we 449 00:24:05,920 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 3: go up to Rance or Shark and then spend the 450 00:24:08,880 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 3: morning touring the cathedral. Richard was with us. 451 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 2: I think they had to Shark to Sharks. 452 00:24:13,240 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 3: All exactly, and Kirkwood descant brilliantly and unforgettably about the 453 00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:22,840 Speaker 3: facade and the sculpture and the changes and the meanings 454 00:24:22,880 --> 00:24:27,760 Speaker 3: and the possibilities. And then after that, you know, staggeringly 455 00:24:28,040 --> 00:24:31,640 Speaker 3: informative and illuminating morning, we'd go for a two star 456 00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:32,600 Speaker 3: or three star lunch. 457 00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,640 Speaker 1: We ate in a restaurant. I think it was called 458 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,000 Speaker 1: something like frost Fois. 459 00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:38,200 Speaker 3: Exactly. 460 00:24:39,680 --> 00:24:41,760 Speaker 1: Just to introjective I love for Kenneth Tita. Do you 461 00:24:41,760 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 1: remember when in the book when she said we're going 462 00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,680 Speaker 1: to eat in this restaurant called, and he said, any 463 00:24:47,760 --> 00:24:49,880 Speaker 1: restaurant called Shay is going to be bad. 464 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:50,920 Speaker 3: I refuse. 465 00:24:52,000 --> 00:24:54,320 Speaker 1: I was going to look up for Kirk Varnadov's speech. 466 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:59,760 Speaker 1: He died in two thousand and three, and both Adam 467 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:03,160 Speaker 1: and I I gave eulogies for him at the Metropolitan Museum. 468 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:10,159 Speaker 1: It brought this back nineteen seventy two, an unrelenting rainstorm 469 00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: in Paris, Richard and I, Judy Bing and Bud Marshner 470 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,960 Speaker 1: bolt for shelter into the Cafe Bozaar to meet their friend. 471 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: A gaspingly handsome man strides into the restaurant, wet and 472 00:25:23,320 --> 00:25:26,520 Speaker 1: wind swept from the ride on his motorcycle, an eight 473 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: P fifteen MOTORGUTSI. He has broad shoulders, long hair, mustache, 474 00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 1: and big sidebirds. He tries to find a space for himself, 475 00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 1: his helmet and his leather jacket. As he squeezes onto 476 00:25:39,840 --> 00:25:43,959 Speaker 1: our table. He's already launched into a story about artists 477 00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: who ate here in the turn of the century. Too 478 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,240 Speaker 1: big for the restaurant with a story to tell. This 479 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,119 Speaker 1: was Kirk. 480 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,600 Speaker 3: It's a beautiful, beautiful description restaurant. You know he was 481 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,600 Speaker 3: a man of such expanse, of authority and appetite at 482 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:03,199 Speaker 3: the same time time. Such a great appreciator. And you know, 483 00:26:03,280 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 3: the two things that always come to mind for me is, 484 00:26:06,840 --> 00:26:09,040 Speaker 3: you know, he loved the brassery delille on the ill 485 00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,840 Speaker 3: Saint Luis, which is a classic old fashioned brasser and 486 00:26:12,119 --> 00:26:15,480 Speaker 3: would love the the geaurettedu porque with lentils. You know, 487 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:20,040 Speaker 3: really basic things. But he was, as you know, he 488 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:24,879 Speaker 3: died of ridiculously young. And you know, when Kirk was 489 00:26:24,920 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 3: on chemo in the last couple of years of his life, 490 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:31,359 Speaker 3: I would go with him to the the chemo suite 491 00:26:31,520 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 3: as they called it, bizarrely, and he would sit because 492 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,440 Speaker 3: he couldn't waste time, you know, he couldn't waste time 493 00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 3: being having cancer. He would sit with the IV in 494 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:45,520 Speaker 3: his arm and talk about art and talk about lectures 495 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:47,119 Speaker 3: he was going to give or a lecture I was 496 00:26:47,160 --> 00:26:49,280 Speaker 3: going to get, and we bat ideas around. He was 497 00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,120 Speaker 3: working on a series of lectures National Gallery in Washington 498 00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:54,520 Speaker 3: about to abstract art, and he would just test them 499 00:26:54,520 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 3: out on me, and you know, you were kind of 500 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 3: curtained off from the other patients. And finally, after we've 501 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:03,680 Speaker 3: been doing this for about six weeks, the Kurt and 502 00:27:03,720 --> 00:27:07,680 Speaker 3: opened is very sweet Russian guy ball from the treatment 503 00:27:08,000 --> 00:27:10,320 Speaker 3: with putting on his hat. Set. Excuse me, he said 504 00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:14,400 Speaker 3: to Kirk, you are professor, and Kirk said, yeah, yeah, 505 00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:16,800 Speaker 3: I'm a teacher. And he said, ah, he said, because 506 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 3: he said, every week I come here when I know 507 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,119 Speaker 3: you're going to be here. He said, I used to 508 00:27:22,119 --> 00:27:23,840 Speaker 3: bring a book, but now I just listened to you. 509 00:27:25,800 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 3: And that was Kirk. 510 00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:27,200 Speaker 2: That was Kirk. 511 00:27:27,920 --> 00:27:29,720 Speaker 1: We were talking about. You were cooking in New York 512 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:32,920 Speaker 1: in this one room. You were involved in the Institute 513 00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:35,040 Speaker 1: of Fine Arts with the Kirk. He was starting to 514 00:27:35,080 --> 00:27:38,360 Speaker 1: write for The New Yorker. And were you just evolved 515 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,560 Speaker 1: in the restaurant scene as well in New York or 516 00:27:40,600 --> 00:27:42,159 Speaker 1: was it mostly just cooking. 517 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:45,720 Speaker 3: Well, at the beginning, it was me attempting to cook 518 00:27:45,760 --> 00:27:48,639 Speaker 3: like my mom. For Martha. We had one. You know, 519 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,000 Speaker 3: I think it's true that all you remember Tolstoy says 520 00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 3: about happy and unhappy families. And my theory is that 521 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,439 Speaker 3: all bad marriages have a new fight every day, they 522 00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:01,359 Speaker 3: find something new to fight about. Good marriages had the 523 00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 3: same fight over and over and over and over. So 524 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:06,360 Speaker 3: Martha and I have been having the same fight for 525 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,399 Speaker 3: forty plus years now, and it's that I like things 526 00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 3: done rare. That was part of the culinary esthetic of 527 00:28:12,160 --> 00:28:15,040 Speaker 3: my family. And Martha comes from a well done family. 528 00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:18,400 Speaker 3: And this is a greater abyss than if she were 529 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,040 Speaker 3: Protestant and I were Catholic. But the great thing is 530 00:28:22,080 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 3: if you go out to eat, you find that medium 531 00:28:25,240 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 3: is a perfect word of tender resolution, right because I 532 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,480 Speaker 3: can say medium rare and Martha says medium. 533 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: Well, I shock everybody here now, I think because I think, 534 00:28:36,160 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: actually an Italian cooking, you don't eat rare meat. 535 00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:39,280 Speaker 3: No. 536 00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,240 Speaker 1: Richard's mother was an Italian cook from Trieste. Really didn't 537 00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:47,120 Speaker 1: like anything rare. And I think if you kind of 538 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 1: then take that a bit further, you really enjoy I 539 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,840 Speaker 1: wouldn't say a well done, dry piece of meat, but 540 00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,680 Speaker 1: you do like a piece of meat falling off the bone. 541 00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:01,520 Speaker 3: Breaze for hours, solution and everything is braising everything, So 542 00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 3: I do you know, I do becoming a vegetarian braised 543 00:29:04,840 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 3: beef and you know seven hour lamb in the French ware, 544 00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,400 Speaker 3: you know, you slow cook a lamb, and I much 545 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:12,800 Speaker 3: prefer that it's like this this stink. 546 00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:22,000 Speaker 1: If you like listening to Ruthie's table for would you 547 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 1: please make sure to write and review the podcast on 548 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 1: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, O, wherever you get your podcasts. 549 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:32,480 Speaker 2: Thank you. 550 00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:42,080 Speaker 1: If food is all that we've described, and you are 551 00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:47,600 Speaker 1: also a very socially conscious, very political person and writer, 552 00:29:48,280 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 1: do you have thoughts about the politics of food. 553 00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:55,360 Speaker 3: I have been lucky to have good professors on that cause, yourself, 554 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,960 Speaker 3: Alice Waters, Peter Hoffman, Dan Barber, who all feel passionately 555 00:30:00,120 --> 00:30:03,000 Speaker 3: about those subjects and to the degree that I can 556 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:05,480 Speaker 3: honor it myself. But I go to the green market 557 00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 3: on Union Square and buy from farmers. I try not 558 00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 3: to be a puritan about it, because I recognize that 559 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 3: the things that we believe in can often be unobtainable 560 00:30:15,760 --> 00:30:19,080 Speaker 3: and hard to do, so I try to recognize that. 561 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,239 Speaker 3: But you know, my basic view of food is, you know, 562 00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:27,320 Speaker 3: it's the most beautifully universal thing that human beings do 563 00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,680 Speaker 3: every stage of our lives. And if you think about it, 564 00:30:30,680 --> 00:30:35,160 Speaker 3: there's almost a universal grammar of food. Right. We all 565 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:39,160 Speaker 3: like a neutral starch and a pungent protein. Right, whether 566 00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,720 Speaker 3: it's paper deli with mulinnaisy sauce, or it's a cassavo 567 00:30:44,800 --> 00:30:49,720 Speaker 3: root with a pungent African chili or it's curry over rice. 568 00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 3: That's kind of the universal human meal everyone today, billion 569 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:55,400 Speaker 3: people are going to sit down and have a neutral 570 00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 3: starch and a pungent protein A pizza is. That's what 571 00:30:58,280 --> 00:31:02,600 Speaker 3: a pizza is. The beauty of that universality never ceases 572 00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:06,080 Speaker 3: to astonish me. And the degree to which our humanity 573 00:31:06,400 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 3: is prisoned, if you like, filtered through the meals we eat, 574 00:31:10,920 --> 00:31:13,560 Speaker 3: I think is a powerful thing. And I deeply believe 575 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: Ruthy that there's a direct connection between the pleasures we 576 00:31:17,800 --> 00:31:21,600 Speaker 3: enjoy and the politics we want. Because if there's one 577 00:31:21,600 --> 00:31:24,200 Speaker 3: thing that I've spent the last fifteen years writing about, 578 00:31:24,200 --> 00:31:28,600 Speaker 3: liberal democracy apparently with absolutely no success at all in 579 00:31:28,680 --> 00:31:32,520 Speaker 3: altering anybody's view, because it remains more in danger today 580 00:31:32,560 --> 00:31:36,000 Speaker 3: as we sit together than at any time in my lifetime, certainly, 581 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:41,959 Speaker 3: But the core principle of healthy liberal democracy is pluralism. 582 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:45,719 Speaker 3: There are many menus in a liberal democracy. We believe 583 00:31:45,760 --> 00:31:50,240 Speaker 3: in many menus. We'd love to go out for Indian food. 584 00:31:50,320 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 3: We welcome immigrants because they bring with them, whether they're 585 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 3: Italians or Bangladeshis, they bring with them flavors and tastes 586 00:31:57,640 --> 00:32:01,360 Speaker 3: we haven't had before. That's part of the the meaning 587 00:32:01,400 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 3: and the magic of a pluralistic democracy. So the pleasure 588 00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:08,760 Speaker 3: we take in our everyday food, the pleasure we take. 589 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:10,680 Speaker 1: And the ability to have it, and the ability to 590 00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:13,200 Speaker 1: have it, and we're you know, I just somebody told 591 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 1: me the other day that the military, a huge percentage 592 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,080 Speaker 1: of people in the arm of the American Army, Navy, 593 00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: Air Force are in food stamps. These people are fighting 594 00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,080 Speaker 1: supposedly for us, and they're not being able to eat food. 595 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:30,040 Speaker 2: You know, this is. 596 00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 3: At the same time one of the great and you know, 597 00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:38,040 Speaker 3: one of my favorite books about food is Elizabeth Leeward's 598 00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 3: Sacred Food I think it's called, And one of the 599 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 3: points she makes is the peasant cultures around the world 600 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 3: have usually been among the most creative and productive, and 601 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:52,320 Speaker 3: we get beautiful, universal things like rice puddings that we share. 602 00:32:52,400 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 3: So I really believe that there's no that not only 603 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 3: is there no distance between the pleasures of the table 604 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,800 Speaker 3: and the necessities of politics, there's a direct connection. We 605 00:33:01,840 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 3: want to assert universality. Everyone should eat well, and we 606 00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:09,880 Speaker 3: want to assert pluralism. Everybody should be free to eat 607 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:13,080 Speaker 3: the menu that they desire. And that isn't just true 608 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,160 Speaker 3: about the things we have at dinner. It's true about 609 00:33:15,440 --> 00:33:17,320 Speaker 3: the things we do in bed, the people we choose 610 00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:21,360 Speaker 3: to love, the way we choose to identify pluralism is 611 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 3: a sign of a healthy polity. 612 00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: We often eat food for comfort, and we have a 613 00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 1: question that we do ask everyone at the end, which 614 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: is to say, if food is sharing, and food is 615 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 1: remembering your parents, going to Paris, or cooking in a 616 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: one room apartment, it's also comfort. Is there something that 617 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,520 Speaker 1: you would go for particularly? 618 00:33:41,000 --> 00:33:44,880 Speaker 3: Yes, I am, and absolutely I have one comfort menu 619 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:47,239 Speaker 3: And it came about in a nice way. When we 620 00:33:47,240 --> 00:33:51,320 Speaker 3: were living in Paris, Luca got terribly sick with salmonella poisoning. 621 00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,320 Speaker 3: We didn't know what it was, and I ended up 622 00:33:53,360 --> 00:33:55,800 Speaker 3: at ten o'clock the night, having literally have them in 623 00:33:55,840 --> 00:34:00,640 Speaker 3: my arms, running to the children's hospital in the in 624 00:34:00,680 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 3: the seventh or on small and they identified what it 625 00:34:04,240 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 3: was and they got him on the right antibiotics. So 626 00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 3: by about midnight we finally got him home, and you know, 627 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,560 Speaker 3: we had been in a state of absolute anxiety, and 628 00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,840 Speaker 3: we hadn't eaten, and now we took a deep breath 629 00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,200 Speaker 3: and I looked around what was there, and all I 630 00:34:17,280 --> 00:34:21,280 Speaker 3: had was in the cupboard was rice and some canned beans, 631 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 3: and I had some apples i'd gotten, and I made 632 00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,800 Speaker 3: Martha dinner of spicy rice and beans with the rice 633 00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 3: treated with some turmeric so it would go orange. Spicy 634 00:34:31,120 --> 00:34:33,520 Speaker 3: rice and beans with a little rugeli mixed in that 635 00:34:33,520 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 3: I had in the fridge, and then a baked apple 636 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:40,520 Speaker 3: with red wine and noir and walnuts. And it was 637 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 3: the single best meal we'd ever had because it was 638 00:34:42,600 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 3: the worst day of our life that was now ending decently, 639 00:34:45,680 --> 00:34:48,000 Speaker 3: and from that day to this, whenever we have a 640 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,880 Speaker 3: crisis or difficulty of sunkind, I said, I'm going to 641 00:34:51,000 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 3: let's just have spicy rice and beans and a baked apple, 642 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 3: and I know that that will be restored. 643 00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 2: And yeah, thank you, Adam. 644 00:34:59,360 --> 00:35:08,000 Speaker 3: Pleasure with Hi. 645 00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,200 Speaker 1: It's Ruthie Rogers, and I'm so excited to announce that 646 00:35:11,280 --> 00:35:15,360 Speaker 1: we have a new book. Squeeze Me has forty seven 647 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:19,760 Speaker 1: delicious lemon recipes from the River Cafe, Beautiful art by 648 00:35:19,880 --> 00:35:22,479 Speaker 1: Ed Bouchet and words by Heather Eve. 649 00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,080 Speaker 2: Pre Order now