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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to the Bob Left Sets podcast.

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Speaker 1: My guest today is David Sedaris. David, when we talked

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Speaker 1: about doing this, you said, oh, it could be eleven

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Speaker 1: o'clock or later. Are you a late night person?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I am, well, especially because I'm in England right now,

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Speaker 2: so there's a big time difference. So sometimes when I

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Speaker 2: have to do interviews, I'll do them like it. I

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Speaker 2: don't know, midnight, that's always a good time to me,

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Speaker 2: you know, that's I don't know, still a reasonable hour,

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Speaker 2: you know, on the West coast of the United States

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Speaker 2: or even on the East coast.

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Speaker 1: Well, if you don't have to do an interview, what

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Speaker 1: time would you go to sleep?

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Speaker 2: Usually between two and three?

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Speaker 1: And what are you doing late at night?

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Speaker 2: I leave? I usually leave at midnight and I walk

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Speaker 2: to the train station because with a headlamp on. I

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Speaker 2: live out in the country and there are any street

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Speaker 2: lights or anything like that. But it's a five mile

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Speaker 2: walk to the train station and back. So I usually

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Speaker 2: do that because there's not any traffic then and I

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Speaker 2: can clean the busy road, you know, pick up trash

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Speaker 2: on busy roads and not have to worry about traffic.

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Speaker 1: And do you listen to anything on your phone or

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Speaker 1: are you in silence? What do you do?

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Speaker 2: I listen to audio books and sometimes I listen to podcasts,

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Speaker 2: but mainly books.

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Speaker 1: And how do you view the experience of audio books

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Speaker 1: as a writer yourself, as opposed to reading a printed book.

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Speaker 2: I think the difference is a book comes into you go.

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Speaker 2: You enter the world of a book, and an audiobook

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Speaker 2: enters your world. Right, So I can recall where I

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Speaker 2: was when I was listening to certain audiobooks, but I

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Speaker 2: can't recall where I was when I read a book,

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Speaker 2: you know, Like I often don't think, oh, I remember

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Speaker 2: I was lying on the sofa when I first read

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Speaker 2: that passage. But I can remember, Uh. You know there's

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Speaker 2: a like less you know, a novel by Andrew Greer,

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Speaker 2: whan I remember the stretch of road I was cleaning

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Speaker 2: when I just really was just just convinced I was

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Speaker 2: listening to the best book ever. Uh. I like audiobooks

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Speaker 2: because you can do other things at the same time.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have a I have shit to do.

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Speaker 2: You know.

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Speaker 1: Do you find that your mind drifts and you have

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Speaker 1: to rewind or you concentrate. No problem, if it's if.

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Speaker 2: It's you know, if it's not a very compelling book,

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Speaker 2: that'll happen. But uh, but I think it's you know,

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Speaker 2: it's probably just like skimming, you know, it's the same thing.

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Speaker 1: And how do you decide what to listen to?

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Speaker 2: Gosh, Well, there's this writer named Alexander Heman, and I

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Speaker 2: read something by him years ago, and then a couple

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Speaker 2: of days ago, I thought, oh right, Alexander Heman. So

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Speaker 2: then I bought one of his audio books and just

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Speaker 2: loved it. And so now I'm listening to another one,

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Speaker 2: and so I'll just kind of dig him for a while.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So you're walking late at night? Are you also

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Speaker 1: walking after you wake up?

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Speaker 2: No? When I wake up, I just go to my

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Speaker 2: desk and work.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so you'll only walk once a day?

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Speaker 2: No, I walk at midnight. I go out, now walk

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Speaker 2: five miles, and then at one o'clock I'll go out

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Speaker 2: and I'll walk you know, ten twelve miles.

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Speaker 1: Okay. How often do you have to replease your shoes?

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Speaker 2: Well? The main issue, I mean more than that, my

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Speaker 2: toenails fall off a lot. Like I'll take my socks

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Speaker 2: off and I'll feel something hard in my sock and

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Speaker 2: it's always a toenail. They fall off like you wouldn't believe,

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Speaker 2: Like like autumn leaves, my toenails fall off because I

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Speaker 2: walk so much.

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Speaker 1: Well, what's your strategy there? How do you prevent them

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Speaker 1: from falling off? Is it about the sock?

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Speaker 2: I don't shoe, I don't, I don't know. I don't

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Speaker 2: know what else I can do. I have, but it

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Speaker 2: doesn't worry me, Like it didn't hurt when they fall

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Speaker 2: off and new ones grow back, So I think it

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Speaker 2: really doesn't bother me in the least. I just am

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Speaker 2: mad because I wish i'd started collecting them years ago.

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Speaker 1: How many do you have?

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Speaker 2: I'd have a jar fall by now. But you know

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Speaker 2: how that is. You don't start collecting something, and then

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Speaker 2: I always feel it's like too late to start collecting,

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Speaker 2: you know, like, oh, if I started collecting now, I

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Speaker 2: would just have like three toenails in my jar with

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Speaker 2: heart start, you know, ten years ago in vi a

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Speaker 2: jar full.

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Speaker 1: Well, I remember when my mother my father died. My

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Speaker 1: mother threw out everything you owned within a week. So

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Speaker 1: all these things you're collecting, what do you anticipate will

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Speaker 1: happen to them? Or are you leaving them to when

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Speaker 1: you die.

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Speaker 2: Well toenails would be an issue. But other things I collect,

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Speaker 2: like well I collect. I have a really good collection

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Speaker 2: of model mushrooms.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and I don't.

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Speaker 2: Know what will happen to my mushrooms when I die.

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Speaker 2: I mean it's a really nice collection, and they look

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Speaker 2: really good in my house here where I've got them.

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Speaker 2: They just seem like they just you know, I'm in

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Speaker 2: England right now and it's a five hundred year old

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Speaker 2: house and there are beams everywhere, and the mushrooms looked

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Speaker 2: just like they just came up on their own. You know.

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Speaker 2: It's not like having them in a in a sleek

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Speaker 2: modern setting, but they would they could work there as well.

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Speaker 1: Where's a good place to find model mushrooms?

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Speaker 2: Gosh, Paris is a good place to find them. I

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Speaker 2: often find them when I'm traveling in other countries, Like

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Speaker 2: if you can find a like a kind of a

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Speaker 2: shop that sells natural history stuff, you know, like two

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Speaker 2: headed cow skulls and weird like there's a it was

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Speaker 2: a store I went to once that sold like wax

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Speaker 2: figures that they used to to show what different diseases

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Speaker 2: look like, you know, like a woman with horrible herbes

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Speaker 2: blisters on her lips. H You know, walk into a

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Speaker 2: store like that, there pretty much guaranteed they're gonna have

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Speaker 2: some mushrooms in there.

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Speaker 1: So how many mushrooms do you own?

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Speaker 2: I only have, like, I don't know, I don't know

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Speaker 2: thirty mushrooms, but they're good ones. I discriminate, you know.

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Speaker 2: Sometimes people give me mushrooms and I say, that's great,

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Speaker 2: but I don't keep it because it's not the standard

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Speaker 2: to which I'm.

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Speaker 1: So what do you do? What do you do with

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Speaker 1: a substandard mushroom?

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Speaker 2: Give it away to somebody? When I go on tour,

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Speaker 2: I always have gifts for teenagers, and quite often it's

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Speaker 2: things like that. It's things people have given me and

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Speaker 2: then I say, oh, I've got something for you. And

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Speaker 2: then you know, they can go with you do with

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Speaker 2: it what they want, but I don't want them to.

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Speaker 2: I don't know. I'm always so flattered that a teenager

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Speaker 2: would come to my show. I mean I was flattered

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Speaker 2: thirty years ago, but now I'm like their grandfather's age.

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Speaker 2: So that's somebody going to hear someone their grandfather's age

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Speaker 2: read out loud. But they would just be poisoned to

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Speaker 2: a teenager but still they come with their parents sometimes

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Speaker 2: and I just always want to have something for them.

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Speaker 2: I can really count on one hand the time I

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Speaker 2: haven't had something for a teenager.

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Speaker 1: Okay, what if someone comes to your house and says,

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Speaker 1: where's the mushroom I gave you?

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Speaker 2: Most people wouldn't do that. But here's the thing. This

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Speaker 2: sounds bad. I have two I have six houses, so

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Speaker 2: I just say it's in another house. I say, Oh

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Speaker 2: it's in Paris, or oh it's at the beach, or

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Speaker 2: oh it's in North Carolina, or oh it's in London.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you have six houses, are you viewing another one

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Speaker 1: to purchase or you're looking at downsize? Your six is

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Speaker 1: the right number?

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Speaker 2: Well, my boyfriend Hugh, he's the one who takes care

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Speaker 2: of everything, and it's always something. You know, A couple

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Speaker 2: of the houses are on the coast of North Carolina,

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Speaker 2: and you know, a hurricane comes and tears the roof

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Speaker 2: off the house, you know, so you have to put

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Speaker 2: a new roof on. Or somebody needs the account and

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Speaker 2: needs to know how much interest our French checking account

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Speaker 2: earned last year, you know. So I would never do

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Speaker 2: a thing like that. I would just never answer that

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Speaker 2: kind of an email. I don't even open emails from

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Speaker 2: the account, right, I don't open any envelope that doesn't

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Speaker 2: look like fan mail. I'm useless that way. But my boyfriend, Hugh,

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Speaker 2: he takes care of that. So he sold something recently

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Speaker 2: and I thought, well, okay, I can't really complain. He's

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Speaker 2: the one who has to take care of it.

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Speaker 1: So now, if you have six houses, houses need maintenance.

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Speaker 1: There's issues with theft. Is there someone in every house

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Speaker 1: at all times, a caretaker, someone looking after it sometimes?

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Speaker 2: I mean there was a man we knew in London

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Speaker 2: named mister T and his wife kicked him out of

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Speaker 2: their house I don't know, thirty years ago, and he'd

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Speaker 2: been living in his car ever since. And so mister

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Speaker 2: T used to stay at our house in London for

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Speaker 2: months when we weren't there, he would stay there. We

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Speaker 2: told him to make himself at home, but he never slept.

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Speaker 2: He brought a sleeping bag and slept on top of

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Speaker 2: the bed. And he uh only used one cop. Well,

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Speaker 2: you never used any pots and pants, just one cop.

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Speaker 2: And then eventually there was nice mister Government found a

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Speaker 2: house for him, an apartment for him, uh, and he

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Speaker 2: would go on weekends. He had a friend who lived

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Speaker 2: in a trailer and didn't have any legs, So mister

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Speaker 2: T would carry this guy to the car and they

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Speaker 2: would go bird watching all week But mister T, everyone

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Speaker 2: needs someone like that. You know, he's a plumber as well.

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Speaker 2: You know, he just operates out of his car. But

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Speaker 2: mister T was exactly the kind of person who Or

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Speaker 2: one time I was in Greece and I met this

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Speaker 2: woman and she was working in a tomato plant and

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Speaker 2: the museum of a tomato in the gift shop of

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Speaker 2: a tomato paste factory, right, and I'm.

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Speaker 1: Waiting to hear what they sell there at the gift

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Speaker 1: shop of the tomato Peasce factory.

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Speaker 2: Well, they had like big cans of tomato paste that

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Speaker 2: they turned into baskets. They had different labels, you know,

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Speaker 2: old labels from tomato paste. I actually bought a lot there.

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Speaker 2: But there was this woman who worked there, and she

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Speaker 2: used to have her own TV show in Greece, and

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Speaker 2: then the economy tanked and then her English was perfect,

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Speaker 2: and and I said, do you think you can get

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Speaker 2: a job in England with that interest you? And she said,

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Speaker 2: I would love that. So she came and stayed in

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Speaker 2: our house for I don't know, four months when we

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Speaker 2: were away, so you know, it's it's And then we've

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Speaker 2: had some friends who just have had financial problems and

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Speaker 2: they've stayed in like in the apartment in Paris. You know,

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Speaker 2: one person stayed there for two years. You know another

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Speaker 2: person stayed there for six months. So I don't know,

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Speaker 2: that's part of the reason to have them, you know,

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Speaker 2: so that you could set somebody up.

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Speaker 1: You know, Okay, you keep referencing you as your boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: Although I've been married once before. I've been with my

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Speaker 1: girlfriend for eighteen years and we're not married. Why don't

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Speaker 1: you marry you?

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be the kind of gay guy

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Speaker 2: who's like, this is my husband, Brad. I just don't

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Speaker 2: want to. I wanted gay marriage. I wanted gay marriage

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Speaker 2: to become legal, and then I wanted no gay person

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Speaker 2: to act on it. I thought that would have been

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Speaker 2: perfect for every one of them, to say, you know why,

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Speaker 2: you'd take that marriage and shove it up your ass.

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Speaker 2: That's what I wanted. So I just don't. I just

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Speaker 2: don't want to be married. I mean, I don't want to.

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Speaker 2: I don't ever want to use the word my husband.

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Speaker 1: You know, okay, from growing up, have you always been

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Speaker 1: kind of a contrary, Like if the mainstream is one thing,

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Speaker 1: you're saying, no, I'm evaluating I'm the opposite.

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Speaker 2: No, no, But I just I don't know. I did

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Speaker 2: feel that way about Marri. I know it's different for

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Speaker 2: young people today. I mean I never grew up thinking

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Speaker 2: that I would get married one day, Like it was

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Speaker 2: never a dream of mine to get married. But now

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Speaker 2: you meet young gay people and marriage has been legal

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Speaker 2: since they were you know, when they're late teens and

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Speaker 2: they're talking about kids. You know, I mean some in

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Speaker 2: my age, like growing up the way I did, you

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Speaker 2: could never get your hands on a child, you know, like,

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Speaker 2: no way you could get your hands on a child.

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Speaker 2: That makes me sound like a betaphile, but there's no

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Speaker 2: way you could be allowed to adopt the child, or

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Speaker 2: you know, probably if your sister died and left you

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Speaker 2: her child, and once the authorities found out you were gay,

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Speaker 2: they'd come and take it away. So it just wasn't

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Speaker 2: ever a part of my thing. Like I never dreamed

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Speaker 2: of getting married, and I never dreamed of having kid.

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Speaker 2: I just I never Maybe if I were twenty, it

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Speaker 2: would be different, but no, I don't need it.

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Speaker 1: So you're growing up in North Carolina. What was your

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Speaker 1: experience growing up being gay in that environment? I mean, now,

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Speaker 1: having such fame and notoriety, it's a different game in

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Speaker 1: fifty years of gone by. But what was it like

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Speaker 1: back then?

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Speaker 2: Well, there weren't any books in the library about it.

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Speaker 2: I don't mean in the school library. I mean, of

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Speaker 2: course they weren't in the school library, but they weren't

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Speaker 2: in a public library either. So I thought, I really

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Speaker 2: thought I was the only gay person in the world.

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Speaker 2: I mean, there was nobody to talk to about it.

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Speaker 2: I just thought I was the only one. And then,

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Speaker 2: very ironically, I was at the library. My mother took

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Speaker 2: me to the library one Saturday because I had a

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Speaker 2: book report due, and I walked into the men's room

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Speaker 2: and there were two men having sex in the bathroom,

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Speaker 2: and I thought, oh, it's not just me, there's those

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Speaker 2: two guys too. And I learned it at the live

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Speaker 2: which is what's just funny to me. But you know,

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Speaker 2: I'm fine. I mean, this is something I guess when

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Speaker 2: I read a book, I would, you know, I would

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Speaker 2: relate to the characters because they were human and I

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Speaker 2: was human, right, now, I feel like so many people

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Speaker 2: they need a mirror, right. It has to be a

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Speaker 2: book where the character's gay, and the character's American and

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Speaker 2: the character lives in England. You know, people want to

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Speaker 2: they don't. They can't relate unless they're looking into a mirror, right,

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Speaker 2: But I don't know. I kind of feel fortunate to

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Speaker 2: have come up in a time where again I could

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Speaker 2: relate to a book or a movie or anything, because

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Speaker 2: I'm human and they were human as well. There's something about,

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Speaker 2: you know, like now everything's about inclusion. There's something about

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Speaker 2: that that almost embarrasses me. You know, Like I'm doing

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Speaker 2: this duo lingo to learn German, and the sentences are like,

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Speaker 2: you know, a man will say that's my husband over there,

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Speaker 2: or my grandmother has a new girlfriend, or my aunt's

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Speaker 2: wife is a lawyer, and I guess that's supposed to

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Speaker 2: make me feel included and stuff. But I never felt unincluded.

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Speaker 2: When I was in high school and I was studying Spanish,

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Speaker 2: you know, they didn't teach us to say I am

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Speaker 2: in the closet or Carlos is my type. But I

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Speaker 2: just figured if I wanted to make that sentence, they

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Speaker 2: gave me the building blocks and I could make them.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I know it's a different world. Now. I'm

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Speaker 2: not saying you know now a kid, you know, you

293
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Speaker 2: didn't be really dumb to think you're the only gay

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Speaker 2: person in the world. You know, you have the evidence

295
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Speaker 2: on television and pretty much everywhere you turn, and that

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Speaker 2: you know there's something to be said for that. But

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Speaker 2: I'm just saying it didn't. It didn't destroy me to

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Speaker 2: not have that.

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Speaker 1: Okay, you were in high school. How did you fit

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Speaker 1: in or not fit in? In high school? Were you

301
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Speaker 1: a member of the group, were you an outcast? What

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Speaker 1: did it look like?

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Speaker 2: Oh? I think I was most like most kids, you know,

304
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Speaker 2: you you're kind of lost and then you find your people.

305
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Speaker 2: And I found mine in the tenth grade or eleventh

306
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Speaker 2: grade one in the drama club. You know, it never

307
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Speaker 2: occurred to me to do drama. And when I look back,

308
00:18:45,359 --> 00:18:47,600
Speaker 2: every guy in the drama club was just as gay

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Speaker 2: as it could be. But you didn't know it, you know,

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Speaker 2: like because I still thought I was the only one.

311
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Speaker 2: But but I don't, you know it was it was

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Speaker 2: really I just woke up when I found the drama club.

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Speaker 2: I just I'm not a good actor, never was but

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Speaker 2: they were a really fun group of people, and I

315
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Speaker 2: just felt like I had a lot in common with them,

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Speaker 2: and they were funny, and they didn't they didn't you know,

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Speaker 2: we did obnoxious things like wear top hats to the airport,

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Speaker 2: you know. I mean, I see kids like that now

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Speaker 2: and I think, oh my god, that's so obnoxious. But

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Speaker 2: at the same time I have to think, like, oh,

321
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Speaker 2: you know, I hope they're having a good time. I

322
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Speaker 2: know them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, when did you know you were gay?

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Speaker 2: Come? I don't know, Like, there wasn't a word for it,

325
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Speaker 2: but I just knew that I didn't fit in, you know,

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Speaker 2: that something was wrong. I'm not wrong. Well, yeah, it

327
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Speaker 2: felt wrong to me. You know. I wasn't interested in sports.

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Speaker 2: I didn't like being around boys. I preferred the company

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Speaker 2: of girls. I didn't I just I felt a difference

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Speaker 2: between me and boys. And again I didn't have a

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Speaker 2: name for it, but I figured that out by the

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Speaker 2: time I was like, I don't know, seven, but I wasn't,

333
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Speaker 2: you know. And then when I was became like fourteen

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Speaker 2: or thirteen, you know, and then you start getting attracted

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Speaker 2: to people, and then you feel, you know, then you're

336
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Speaker 2: pretty sure of it. You know, when you when you're

337
00:20:31,520 --> 00:20:33,359
Speaker 2: I had a woman come up a while ago and

338
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Speaker 2: say she had an eight year old son, and she said,

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Speaker 2: my eight year old is gay. And I thought, really,

340
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Speaker 2: I mean that seems a little bit early to me,

341
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Speaker 2: you know too. I mean maybe he felt different, but

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Speaker 2: I don't know that at eight years old, you are

343
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Speaker 2: physically you know, you don't get an erection. You're not

344
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Speaker 2: turned on by someone at the age of eight.

345
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Speaker 1: So when did you know you want me to be

346
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Speaker 1: a writer?

347
00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:21,159
Speaker 2: I dropped out of college and then I was picking

348
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Speaker 2: apples in a little town in Oregon, and I was

349
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Speaker 2: by myself, and there was a library there, and I

350
00:21:28,160 --> 00:21:31,400
Speaker 2: just didn't have any friends or anything. So I started

351
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:36,879
Speaker 2: going to the library and reading. And then I just

352
00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:42,840
Speaker 2: noticed how moved I was by what I read in books.

353
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Speaker 2: And I was doing visual artwork, but I wasn't ever

354
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Speaker 2: really very good at it. I mean I was disciplined,

355
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Speaker 2: but I wasn't good at it. And then I just

356
00:21:53,280 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 2: noticed again, books were, you know, just I would read

357
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Speaker 2: something in a book and I would memorize it, and

358
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,639
Speaker 2: I would when then when I was at work in

359
00:22:05,680 --> 00:22:09,160
Speaker 2: the canning factory or out picking apples, I could turn

360
00:22:09,200 --> 00:22:11,840
Speaker 2: it over and over in my mind, and it's a

361
00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,400
Speaker 2: pleasure it would bring me to recite something to myself.

362
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Speaker 2: And I started keeping a diary, and then I remember,

363
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Speaker 2: and then I secretly thought, like, wow, it would be

364
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:28,520
Speaker 2: great to be a writer. But I would look at

365
00:22:28,520 --> 00:22:30,920
Speaker 2: what I wrote and it sucked. And then I would think, well,

366
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Speaker 2: of course it sucks. I just I just started six

367
00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 2: months ago. Of course it's going to suck. And then

368
00:22:38,320 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 2: a year later I thought, well, I just started a

369
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 2: year ago, of course it's going to suck. And then

370
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Speaker 2: three years ago, I three years later, I thought, it

371
00:22:45,680 --> 00:22:50,720
Speaker 2: still sucks, you know. But you know that makes sense.

372
00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,040
Speaker 2: So I never put a timer on it. You know,

373
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Speaker 2: I never said to myself, I need to publish a book.

374
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Speaker 2: Why I'm twenty By the time I'm twenty seve and

375
00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:04,040
Speaker 2: I'm giving up. It wasn't that. I just figured I

376
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,160
Speaker 2: just work at it every day and very slowly I'd

377
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:10,320
Speaker 2: get better. And I just completely kept it to myself

378
00:23:10,440 --> 00:23:13,320
Speaker 2: for seven years. I never showed anybody anything i'd written,

379
00:23:14,160 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: because it sucked, you know. And then I went back

380
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:22,680
Speaker 2: to college. I had dropped out, so I went back

381
00:23:22,680 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 2: to college and I took a writing class and started

382
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Speaker 2: writing more than a diary, you know, started writing short stories,

383
00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:39,000
Speaker 2: and uh, and I chose the right place to go

384
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: to college because it was I went to the school

385
00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,359
Speaker 2: at the Art Institute of Chicago, and they didn't have

386
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,600
Speaker 2: a writing program, but they had some you had, they

387
00:23:47,640 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: had some people teaching creative writing, and and there were

388
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,240
Speaker 2: really good people, and they had so much to give,

389
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 2: and nobody really wanted it, you know, but I did.

390
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:03,359
Speaker 2: So they gave me all their attention and they gave

391
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:06,280
Speaker 2: me all of their knowledge, like there was nobody else

392
00:24:06,440 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 2: asking for it, just me, and and it was really

393
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 2: the right It was just the right place for me.

394
00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:17,399
Speaker 2: Like I feel like if I had gone to the

395
00:24:17,440 --> 00:24:21,280
Speaker 2: Iowa Writers Workshop, I would have sunk, you know, I

396
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:24,399
Speaker 2: would have I wouldn't have been strong enough. And I

397
00:24:24,400 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: didn't I don't know that I wouldn't have gotten in

398
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 2: the first place, but I don't think I would have

399
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,280
Speaker 2: been able to. This was a good environment for me

400
00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:42,760
Speaker 2: because there really wasn't any well, competition is not the

401
00:24:42,840 --> 00:24:48,600
Speaker 2: right word. It was like it was like I had

402
00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,359
Speaker 2: my own It was like I had my own private teachers,

403
00:24:52,440 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 2: and they really responded to what I wrote.

404
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: A writer is born were the taught.

405
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:05,040
Speaker 2: I don't know that you can teach writing. I had

406
00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,760
Speaker 2: a student I taught for a brief while at the

407
00:25:08,840 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 2: Art School of the Art Institute. I was never qualified

408
00:25:11,560 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 2: to teach, but a teacher back down at the last minute.

409
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:20,399
Speaker 2: And so two years after I graduated, I was thirty,

410
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 2: I think my old teacher called me and said, there's

411
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 2: this creative writing class and there's two classes, and we

412
00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,040
Speaker 2: don't have anyone to teach. Will you come and do it?

413
00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:34,399
Speaker 2: And like I said, I wasn't qualified. You know, I

414
00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:38,120
Speaker 2: never went to graduate school. I don't know. I don't

415
00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,719
Speaker 2: really know how to fix my own I know how

416
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: to fix my own stuff, but I don't know how

417
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 2: to fix other people's. But I had one student, and

418
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:50,199
Speaker 2: it was really clear that she was talented. And the

419
00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,720
Speaker 2: difference is that she read. She read a lot, and

420
00:25:54,800 --> 00:26:01,080
Speaker 2: she was disciplined, and so I could be her cheerleader

421
00:26:02,040 --> 00:26:05,600
Speaker 2: and I could suggest things for her to read, and

422
00:26:05,640 --> 00:26:09,160
Speaker 2: I could read everything she ever gave me and get

423
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:12,000
Speaker 2: back to her as soon as I possibly could. That's

424
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 2: the best I could do. And anyway, her first book

425
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: came out a year and a half ago, and I've

426
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 2: never felt that. I never felt well, I guess I've

427
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 2: always felt proud of my sister Amy, you know, and

428
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 2: I felt proud of Hugh. But anyway, I felt so proud.

429
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: It was such a it was such a wonderful feeling,

430
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:50,480
Speaker 2: you know, to to watch somebody come into her own

431
00:26:51,119 --> 00:26:57,840
Speaker 2: like that and create something that was so magnificent and

432
00:26:59,240 --> 00:27:05,240
Speaker 2: just I guess, I guess it was the only time

433
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: I'd ever mentored anybody. You know. Somebody came up to

434
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 2: me at a book signing once and said, will you be

435
00:27:10,359 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 2: my mentor? And I said, well, it doesn't really work

436
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:15,000
Speaker 2: that way, you know. I mean, it's a beautiful thing

437
00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:17,240
Speaker 2: when it works out, but it has to be organic.

438
00:27:17,640 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 2: I think.

439
00:27:19,680 --> 00:27:22,800
Speaker 1: Let's go back to the Iowa Writers' School. A lot

440
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:28,480
Speaker 1: of that is about adopting a literary style. They talk

441
00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,639
Speaker 1: about rewriting as opposed to writing. What's your view on

442
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:33,680
Speaker 1: writing like that?

443
00:27:36,000 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 2: It just takes a while to find your style, you know.

444
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:42,160
Speaker 2: I mean, you know, you start off and you imitate

445
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 2: other people, and then there comes a point where you think,

446
00:27:46,200 --> 00:27:51,040
Speaker 2: all right, I'm never going to be that person. But

447
00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 2: what have I got right?

448
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:54,840
Speaker 1: What what do.

449
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,439
Speaker 2: I have that nobody else has? Or stop trying to

450
00:27:58,480 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: be somebody or not, and stop being ashamed of what

451
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: you've got. I remember I was. I had asked my

452
00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:10,119
Speaker 2: students one time to write something about their lives, and everybody,

453
00:28:10,600 --> 00:28:17,040
Speaker 2: well not the majority of the students wrote, you know,

454
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:19,600
Speaker 2: made it sound like they were raised by wolves, you know.

455
00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,399
Speaker 2: And I realized they were ashamed of their lives. And

456
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:25,920
Speaker 2: they were ashamed of their lives because they were middle

457
00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:29,880
Speaker 2: class and they grew up in the suburbs, and they

458
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: felt that their life was inherently uninteresting. And I thought, wow,

459
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,240
Speaker 2: that's really sad. You know. It used to be poor

460
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 2: people who were ashamed of their lives, you know, and

461
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,400
Speaker 2: then it became wealthy people and middle class people. But

462
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 2: I thought, I thought, well, I didn't want to be like,

463
00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: there's nothing extraordinary about my life, but I I didn't

464
00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: want to be ashamed of it, you know. I didn't

465
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 2: want to to feel like it. I mean, what an

466
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:13,560
Speaker 2: awful feeling to just think that your life there's no value,

467
00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 2: or that you have none of your stories are worth telling.

468
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:26,840
Speaker 2: But I again, I think that had to do with

469
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 2: just not putting a timer on things, and even because

470
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:35,400
Speaker 2: I did find my voice eventually, but if I had

471
00:29:35,760 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 2: put a timer on things and said, well, if I don't,

472
00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: you know, if I don't get something published by this age,

473
00:29:41,200 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 2: then it's all over. You know. It takes some people

474
00:29:45,680 --> 00:29:50,160
Speaker 2: longer than others, you know, to not find out who

475
00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 2: they are, but just allow themselves to be themselves.

476
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: You know, are you ever even at this lead date?

477
00:29:57,880 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 1: Like I saw you a few months ago, you were

478
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,360
Speaker 1: talking about your relationship with your father. You're peening your

479
00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,560
Speaker 1: father somewhat negatively, and then you said, but you're alive

480
00:30:06,640 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: and he's dead. Are you ever self conscious? Are you

481
00:30:10,680 --> 00:30:15,440
Speaker 1: ever self conscious about about revealing information and how people

482
00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:17,960
Speaker 1: will judge you as a result thereof?

483
00:30:19,760 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 2: I usually feel that the more honest you can be,

484
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:27,360
Speaker 2: the more people will relate to you. Yeah, I mean,

485
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,640
Speaker 2: you can usually tell when someone's thinking it, when somebody's

486
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: faking like a h when somebody's oh, just kind of

487
00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 2: spouting bullshit. You know, you can usually tell and if

488
00:30:49,160 --> 00:30:53,880
Speaker 2: somebody is being honest about something, even if it's not like,

489
00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 2: there's a way that somebody could get up there and

490
00:30:55,840 --> 00:31:01,720
Speaker 2: just be honest about something that's really pretty brutal or

491
00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:06,880
Speaker 2: something that even that I don't believe in, But there'd

492
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 2: be a way that maybe I could relate to it,

493
00:31:12,680 --> 00:31:15,360
Speaker 2: maybe just because they're being honest about it, you know,

494
00:31:15,480 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 2: Like if I think about it, like if one of

495
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 2: those January sixth people right could tell me a story

496
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: about that day. But if they were, I don't know

497
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:36,520
Speaker 2: if they were if they were honest about it, and

498
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:41,080
Speaker 2: if they were, I don't know if there was some

499
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 2: way I could connect to them about it, right, I mean,

500
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:51,200
Speaker 2: I guess that's the thing. I like, we we live

501
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 2: in we're in the country right now. I'm in the countryside, right,

502
00:31:53,880 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: I'm in West Sussex, and we have a pastor behind

503
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:03,320
Speaker 2: our house, and there's a shepherd we know. That a

504
00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:06,720
Speaker 2: great sentence. There's a shepherd we know, and he was

505
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,480
Speaker 2: looking for someone's place to put his rams, and so

506
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,000
Speaker 2: we said, well, we have a pasture behind our house

507
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:13,840
Speaker 2: and we have these rams who have been living in

508
00:32:13,840 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 2: our backyard. And rams are assholes, right. So I wanted

509
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: to write about the rams, but I wanted someone who's

510
00:32:22,040 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: never seen a ram to be able to relate to it, right.

511
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:28,120
Speaker 2: So that's when I sit down to write about it,

512
00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:30,720
Speaker 2: I think, Okay, how can I approach this in a

513
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:37,600
Speaker 2: way that somebody who's has no relationships with rams? Could connect.

514
00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,720
Speaker 2: And I don't know. I wrote this essay. It's the

515
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:45,000
Speaker 2: New Yorker just bought it. I'm going to read it

516
00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,400
Speaker 2: on tour next week and I'll see if it works.

517
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 2: But I think I found a way that it could

518
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: everyone could. I don't know, yeh, connect with it?

519
00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: Okay. When you're walking lead at night? Is that when

520
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,200
Speaker 1: your ideas come to you spontaneously? When do your ideas

521
00:33:06,240 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: come to you? And how do they come to you?

522
00:33:09,440 --> 00:33:12,360
Speaker 2: Usually they usually come to me at my desk, you know,

523
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 2: I just get up and I go right to my desk.

524
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:17,640
Speaker 2: I don't like to write on my feet because then

525
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 2: I don't know. I sit at my desk and I'm

526
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: just kind of forcing something. But where I like for

527
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:26,600
Speaker 2: it to just be organic and come out of I mean,

528
00:33:26,640 --> 00:33:33,560
Speaker 2: I have a list of story ideas, and so I

529
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,520
Speaker 2: sometimes I turn to that, but I don't want to

530
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 2: get ahead of myself. Right Like I was with my

531
00:33:41,200 --> 00:33:48,760
Speaker 2: friend Dawn in Montrose, Colorado, which is just a very flats,

532
00:33:48,840 --> 00:33:49,960
Speaker 2: really hot.

533
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 1: A little bit slow. I've been to Montrose, Colorado, which

534
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:56,160
Speaker 1: of course you fly into if you want to go

535
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,880
Speaker 1: to tell your ride, and it's south of Grand Junction.

536
00:33:59,160 --> 00:34:01,600
Speaker 1: What would you doing in Montrose, Colorado.

537
00:34:02,120 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 2: I had a show and tell your ride, but I

538
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: had to leave early the next morning. So I was

539
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:10,520
Speaker 2: staying in Montrose at a hotel. It was like a

540
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:15,439
Speaker 2: four minute walk from the airport, right. And the thing

541
00:34:15,680 --> 00:34:19,520
Speaker 2: is I found when you when you go on tour,

542
00:34:20,280 --> 00:34:24,120
Speaker 2: if you're staying like at a four Seasons, you know

543
00:34:26,320 --> 00:34:28,839
Speaker 2: you're not going to get a story out of it, right,

544
00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,359
Speaker 2: But if you're staying at a hotel, well you can

545
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:35,320
Speaker 2: walk to the airport. They're usually going to leave with

546
00:34:35,400 --> 00:34:40,560
Speaker 2: the story. So I did, but I put that on

547
00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: my story list and was trying to think of a

548
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 2: way to h and then sometimes something happens, like I

549
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: was in Australia and something happened and our flight got

550
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,280
Speaker 2: delayed and delayed and delayed, and I wrote the entire

551
00:34:57,400 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 2: essay right there on the airport, you know, the thing

552
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,560
Speaker 2: that had happened the day before. I mean, it needed

553
00:35:03,560 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 2: to be rewritten like a dozen times, but I got

554
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:11,640
Speaker 2: the first draft out usually, you know, and I'm like everybody,

555
00:35:11,680 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 2: you know, every every now and then I think like, okay,

556
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,360
Speaker 2: that's it, there's nothing more. I reached the bottom of

557
00:35:18,360 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 2: the barrel, and that's it. But then I find when

558
00:35:22,760 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 2: I read something really good, all kinds of ideas come

559
00:35:26,840 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: to me. Not you know, It's like if I'm reading

560
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:36,080
Speaker 2: a book about, you know, somebody with COVID. That doesn't

561
00:35:36,120 --> 00:35:38,359
Speaker 2: mean that I think, oh, I'll write about COVID too,

562
00:35:38,880 --> 00:35:42,880
Speaker 2: But it can just make me look at the world

563
00:35:44,680 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: with fresh eyes. Again. That's what it does. It takes

564
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 2: my eyes out of my head, it washes them, and

565
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 2: it pops them back in and then for a brief time,

566
00:35:54,960 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 2: everything looks new and interesting to me.

567
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:04,640
Speaker 1: Can you be just as inspired staying home for a

568
00:36:04,760 --> 00:36:08,200
Speaker 1: month reading as you would be going on the road

569
00:36:08,239 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: and interacting with others for a month?

570
00:36:11,320 --> 00:36:13,800
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, like the story I just wrote, the essay

571
00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:22,640
Speaker 2: I just wrote about the rams, you know, ah, yeah,

572
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 2: very much.

573
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:26,040
Speaker 1: So let me ask you this, if you were to

574
00:36:26,239 --> 00:36:29,719
Speaker 1: just read, would you have enough ideas? Or is it

575
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: everyday life interacting with other elements, animate or inanimate that

576
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,000
Speaker 1: inspire you.

577
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:39,640
Speaker 2: It's a combination of the two. You know, it's reading

578
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:43,080
Speaker 2: and it's living. It's going out into the world and

579
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:51,680
Speaker 2: having things happen. And again, it's not like massive things

580
00:36:51,719 --> 00:36:58,600
Speaker 2: happen to me. But I don't know, I just I

581
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:00,919
Speaker 2: like to kind of make something out of nothing.

582
00:37:02,920 --> 00:37:05,960
Speaker 1: Or take the micro and expand it. But so when

583
00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:10,600
Speaker 1: you sit down every day, are you usually working on

584
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: something you started or are you starting something? What do

585
00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: you do when you literally sit down?

586
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,960
Speaker 2: Well, I sit down every morning, and first thing I

587
00:37:20,000 --> 00:37:22,080
Speaker 2: do is I write in my diary, and then I

588
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:25,480
Speaker 2: turned to whatever it is and I'm working on. And

589
00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:28,279
Speaker 2: then sometimes, like yesterday, I had to make a hard

590
00:37:28,360 --> 00:37:33,960
Speaker 2: choice and I abandoned something. You know, I thought, well,

591
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:36,480
Speaker 2: maybe in a year I can come back to it

592
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:41,160
Speaker 2: and get it to work, but I'm not. It just

593
00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,239
Speaker 2: felt like I'd already written it, you know, so I

594
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:45,400
Speaker 2: turned to something else.

595
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:49,320
Speaker 1: Is the process that you lay it all down quickly

596
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,839
Speaker 1: and we write it or do you eke it out

597
00:37:51,880 --> 00:37:53,759
Speaker 1: sentenced by sentence? How does it come?

598
00:37:55,880 --> 00:38:00,359
Speaker 2: Oh? I don't know. Like today I probably wrote three

599
00:38:00,440 --> 00:38:10,480
Speaker 2: pages on something I started, and then you know, I'll

600
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: expand on it tomorrow. I'm going to love to be

601
00:38:17,440 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 2: finished with it in a week, but I don't know

602
00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 2: that that's gonna happen. It'll just come in its own time.

603
00:38:26,760 --> 00:38:29,960
Speaker 2: It's hard to write things whole cloth when I'm on tour,

604
00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 2: Like I start a tour next week, so I'm going

605
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:36,239
Speaker 2: to I don't know, forty two cities or something. But

606
00:38:36,280 --> 00:38:39,200
Speaker 2: I can rewrite when I'm traveling, so I have a

607
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 2: lot to rewrite.

608
00:38:47,239 --> 00:38:50,560
Speaker 1: Okay, you have this great success. You were on the road.

609
00:38:51,080 --> 00:38:56,200
Speaker 1: Many people who have household names success which you do have, say,

610
00:38:56,280 --> 00:38:59,440
Speaker 1: oh no, it just happened to me. But most of

611
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: these people were driven. They needed it. So why are

612
00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,600
Speaker 1: you so successful? Being talented is not enough.

613
00:39:09,160 --> 00:39:13,520
Speaker 2: No, But I was always on fire, you know, like

614
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:16,959
Speaker 2: when I was doing visual art, it was the same thing.

615
00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:22,000
Speaker 2: I was just on fire, had blinders on, nothing else.

616
00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:26,080
Speaker 2: You know, everybody else is going to the party. I'm

617
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:32,560
Speaker 2: staying home and working. I've just always been that way,

618
00:39:32,680 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: Like I just a kind of a laser focus. And

619
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 2: also I'm you know, I have some obsessive compulsive stuff

620
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 2: going on, and so it was always very easy for

621
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:46,720
Speaker 2: me to do the exact same thing at the exact

622
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:47,959
Speaker 2: same time every day.

623
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:50,680
Speaker 1: Tell me a little bit more about the OCD. I

624
00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: get that, But like, are you locking the door twenty times?

625
00:39:54,120 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 1: Are your order?

626
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,359
Speaker 2: It used to be? I mean I used to lock

627
00:39:57,400 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 2: the door twenty times, and then it when I was

628
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:06,040
Speaker 2: a kid, it was just like really bad. But then

629
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 2: when I got older. You know, I'd written something about

630
00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 2: it one time and I had said, how you know,

631
00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:15,319
Speaker 2: it seemed to get my life thing to get better

632
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: when I started smoking. And then someone called and said, no,

633
00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:22,360
Speaker 2: that makes sense. You know that nicotine can can be

634
00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:24,919
Speaker 2: a way to self medicate for that kind of thing.

635
00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,320
Speaker 2: But then I quit smoking, and I thought everyone everything

636
00:40:30,320 --> 00:40:34,280
Speaker 2: would come roaring back, but it didn't. Now I'm more

637
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,440
Speaker 2: like I'm a prisoner of a Yeah, I'm a prisoner.

638
00:40:38,520 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 2: Like I got a fit bit, you know, and so

639
00:40:44,440 --> 00:40:47,120
Speaker 2: that's why I go out after midnight. I forgot a

640
00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:50,400
Speaker 2: fit bit. So then I started walking between fifteen and

641
00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:53,520
Speaker 2: twenty miles a day when I'm in Sussex, right, so

642
00:40:53,560 --> 00:40:56,799
Speaker 2: I have to do that. Then I have to do

643
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:59,920
Speaker 2: duo lingo. But it's not just I have to do it,

644
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:06,040
Speaker 2: like I have to be like in the top three.

645
00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: And so that's hours and hours and hours and hours

646
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:13,120
Speaker 2: and hours that I have to do that. And I

647
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:15,719
Speaker 2: have to do my own work, and then I have

648
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 2: to swim a certain distance every day and I have

649
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:27,800
Speaker 2: to Uh, it's it's a lot on my little schedule,

650
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 2: Like there really not enough hours in the day, and

651
00:41:31,880 --> 00:41:34,560
Speaker 2: I never know when something else is gonna pop up.

652
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 2: One time it was feeding spiders. And I'm telling you

653
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:42,880
Speaker 2: I fed spiders. This was in France, and we had

654
00:41:43,360 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: lots of spiders in our house, and I was feeding

655
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: spiders for hours every day, right and monitoring them.

656
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:54,360
Speaker 1: No, wait, a little bit more, a little slow, a

657
00:41:54,400 --> 00:41:58,320
Speaker 1: little more granular. So you see a spider in the house,

658
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,040
Speaker 1: you think they're hungry. What's going on there?

659
00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 2: There was a spider, a Taganaria gigantia, who lives in

660
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:07,960
Speaker 2: They live in a horizontal sheet web.

661
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:13,200
Speaker 1: And how big a spider is that? And I think

662
00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:16,040
Speaker 1: I know what a horizontal web is, but tell me.

663
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,239
Speaker 2: The size of an unshelled peanut. It's a pretty big,

664
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: black brown you know. Horizontal seat web, It's just a

665
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:31,080
Speaker 2: flat web, right, with a little funnel that it goes

666
00:42:31,120 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 2: into that it lives in. And they can be pretty

667
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,520
Speaker 2: big those. So it was in the corner. We had

668
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: a casement window. It was in France, so it was

669
00:42:40,200 --> 00:42:43,800
Speaker 2: an old casement window. So there was a there was

670
00:42:43,840 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: a it was built at the bottom of the window

671
00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:49,440
Speaker 2: so I couldn't open the window because I would destroy

672
00:42:49,520 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: the web. Right, So, and I heard a fly buzz

673
00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 2: and then I heard it buzz differently, and I stood

674
00:42:56,280 --> 00:42:58,279
Speaker 2: up and I went over to the window and I

675
00:42:58,400 --> 00:43:04,719
Speaker 2: saw the had gotten a fly. It was dragging it

676
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,439
Speaker 2: into its little home, right, And I thought, I want

677
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 2: to see that again. So I caught a fly in

678
00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 2: a jar and then I shook the jar up so

679
00:43:15,480 --> 00:43:17,919
Speaker 2: the flylight would hit its head, you know, and get

680
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: knocked out. And then I poured it into a web,

681
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:24,239
Speaker 2: and then when it came to the spider came out

682
00:43:24,480 --> 00:43:27,800
Speaker 2: and took it right. And we had so many spiders

683
00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 2: in our house, and then we had outbuildings, so it

684
00:43:32,400 --> 00:43:36,719
Speaker 2: was easy to feed forty spiders a day, right, so

685
00:43:37,000 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 2: all day long, I mean, and we kept our door

686
00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,200
Speaker 2: open so the house was for flies. So that wasn't

687
00:43:43,239 --> 00:43:47,319
Speaker 2: hard to do. But you know, flies can eat like

688
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:49,480
Speaker 2: I mean, spiders can eat like once a week and

689
00:43:49,480 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: they're okay. But spiders got so fat, you know what

690
00:43:54,000 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: I mean. It just wasn't good for him. But I

691
00:43:57,880 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 2: just kept doing it. And then I went on tour,

692
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,799
Speaker 2: and of course I didn't have my spiders, and then

693
00:44:02,800 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 2: I went back to France and then it was winter

694
00:44:06,000 --> 00:44:09,000
Speaker 2: so we didn't have flies. And I don't know, there's

695
00:44:09,040 --> 00:44:12,239
Speaker 2: a flimsy kind of a spider that you don't want,

696
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: you wouldn't think twice about, but it would devour all

697
00:44:16,560 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 2: the other spiders. So by the time I got home,

698
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:21,880
Speaker 2: there was nothing left but the flimsy spiders. And the

699
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,080
Speaker 2: next summer I did it all over again. And it

700
00:44:25,120 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 2: wasn't until I moved to England that I stopped with that.

701
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:32,360
Speaker 2: But I never know when something's going to come along.

702
00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:34,919
Speaker 2: It's like a hobby, but it's just taken too far.

703
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: But is it a compulsion more than a hobby.

704
00:44:37,480 --> 00:44:38,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's a compulsion.

705
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:43,920
Speaker 1: So the compulsion cannot be broken by you. It has

706
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:47,200
Speaker 1: to be like a very distinct thing, like you leave

707
00:44:47,320 --> 00:44:48,880
Speaker 1: town or something like that.

708
00:44:49,560 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't. I can't like the duo lingo thing.

709
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:56,279
Speaker 2: It's just ridiculous.

710
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: Just a little bit. There's a chart you say being

711
00:44:58,640 --> 00:44:59,479
Speaker 1: in the top three.

712
00:45:00,040 --> 00:45:03,480
Speaker 2: Explain that there's a competitive aspect to do a lingo,

713
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 2: which I didn't realize.

714
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:06,600
Speaker 1: It's a lot I told you told me in my

715
00:45:06,640 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 1: audience A little bit more about dual linger.

716
00:45:08,400 --> 00:45:11,840
Speaker 2: It's a language learning app, right, So you choose what

717
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: language you want, and I started off with Japanese and

718
00:45:17,080 --> 00:45:19,879
Speaker 2: it will teach you the alphabet and then it will

719
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:24,040
Speaker 2: give you a sentence in Japanese. You have to translate

720
00:45:24,480 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 2: right from a menu of words below, or it'll give

721
00:45:28,160 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 2: you sEH, It'll give you a sentence in English, and

722
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:41,919
Speaker 2: then you have to construct it in Japanese translated into Japanese.

723
00:45:42,320 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 2: And I had studied some Japanese before, but I'd never

724
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:50,160
Speaker 2: really learned to read, so it was good for that.

725
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 2: And then I branched out, and then I started doing

726
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,000
Speaker 2: the German as well, right, And then I discovered one

727
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:00,879
Speaker 2: day that there was there were leagues I just hadn't no, right,

728
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:06,040
Speaker 2: So there's like the Obsidian League and the Pearl League,

729
00:46:04,920 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 2: and I would get these congratulations, Oh, you're in the

730
00:46:09,200 --> 00:46:13,359
Speaker 2: Pearl League, and I thought, so that feels good. And

731
00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: then the highest is the Diamond League. Right, so you

732
00:46:17,239 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 2: get these extra points on dual lingo and a normal

733
00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 2: person might get, oh, I don't know, forty extra points

734
00:46:25,160 --> 00:46:29,440
Speaker 2: a day, and I'll be getting like four thousand extra

735
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:32,160
Speaker 2: points a day. So it was like it was a

736
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:35,799
Speaker 2: big part of my day. It's a huge part of

737
00:46:35,840 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 2: my day. And I can't even say that that It

738
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 2: wasn't even about learning anymore. It just became I've never

739
00:46:44,840 --> 00:46:47,080
Speaker 2: played a video game in my life. But that's I

740
00:46:47,120 --> 00:46:49,959
Speaker 2: think what it became was me was a video game.

741
00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:55,160
Speaker 2: Today when I walked to the village today, we live

742
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,799
Speaker 2: on the edge of what's essentially Downton Abbey, and I

743
00:46:58,840 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 2: can there's this massive, massive tudor. It's not a castle,

744
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,640
Speaker 2: it's just a pile, you know, It's just it's on

745
00:47:13,800 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 2: thousands of acres of land. And it's also a deer

746
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:20,600
Speaker 2: park and there's right away in England. So I cut

747
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 2: across the grounds and this is the time of year

748
00:47:26,000 --> 00:47:31,600
Speaker 2: when the stags stand underneath trees and cough to attract

749
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:34,920
Speaker 2: females like I never thought deer made any noise at all,

750
00:47:35,000 --> 00:47:46,319
Speaker 2: but they it is cough. It is unspeakably beautiful and

751
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 2: it's fall and the temperature has changed and the air

752
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 2: feels different. And I'm leaving tomorrow to start my tour.

753
00:47:58,680 --> 00:48:03,680
Speaker 2: And I walked across the param house twice today doing

754
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:08,200
Speaker 2: dual lingo as I walked right doing it on my

755
00:48:08,280 --> 00:48:14,720
Speaker 2: iPad so I could rack up four thousand extra points.

756
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:18,839
Speaker 2: And I'm so mad at myself because I stopped at

757
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:23,640
Speaker 2: one point. It's so beautiful that every day I notice

758
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:28,120
Speaker 2: how beautiful it is. Every day I think what a

759
00:48:28,200 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 2: kind of a world is this that I get to

760
00:48:29,880 --> 00:48:33,359
Speaker 2: live amongst such beauty? Right? And I didn't do it

761
00:48:33,480 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 2: because I was doing this stupid duo lingo and I'm

762
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,160
Speaker 2: competing against people I don't even know who they are.

763
00:48:40,920 --> 00:48:43,560
Speaker 2: They're like twenty five of them from all over the world.

764
00:48:43,640 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 2: Everyone has a nickname, right, it doesn't matter at all? Right,

765
00:48:51,719 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 2: And I don't. I can't. I can't. It's like a trap.

766
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,960
Speaker 2: I man, I can't get out of it. And Hughes said,

767
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 2: has just stop doing it? But I can't.

768
00:49:03,120 --> 00:49:06,920
Speaker 1: Okay, just for one second. You're in the competition with

769
00:49:07,040 --> 00:49:10,480
Speaker 1: duo lingo. But the main goal of duo lingo is

770
00:49:10,520 --> 00:49:14,280
Speaker 1: to learn the language. Right, have you learned the language?

771
00:49:14,360 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 1: Racking up all these extra points?

772
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,040
Speaker 2: There's only well, see, the way to rack up the

773
00:49:20,080 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 2: extra points is to do these practice because you get

774
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:29,000
Speaker 2: more points doing the practice thing. So, but I was

775
00:49:29,040 --> 00:49:31,719
Speaker 2: in Germany a week ago. I was there on a

776
00:49:31,719 --> 00:49:37,160
Speaker 2: book tour, and I talk to German all the time.

777
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: I and people said, oh my god, I didn't know

778
00:49:43,560 --> 00:49:46,359
Speaker 2: you spoke German. And they said, oh my god, your

779
00:49:46,400 --> 00:49:50,640
Speaker 2: German is perfect. Now my German is not perfect. They

780
00:49:50,640 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 2: were just being nice, but and I would overhear people

781
00:49:54,120 --> 00:49:57,759
Speaker 2: talking and maybe I would understand one word out of

782
00:49:57,800 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: every twenty. But then, you know, so it's easy to

783
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,120
Speaker 2: give up. But then you think, well, one word out

784
00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:08,239
Speaker 2: of every twenty is better than one word out of

785
00:50:08,239 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 2: every fifty or one word out of every hundred. You know,

786
00:50:12,640 --> 00:50:23,760
Speaker 2: so keep at it and and you'll get better.

787
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,919
Speaker 1: Okay, So you're at home. Let's say one day it's

788
00:50:28,080 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 1: really raining, terrible weather, you're driven, you have to walk anyway.

789
00:50:33,520 --> 00:50:37,880
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, that rain, and that happens a

790
00:50:37,880 --> 00:50:41,040
Speaker 2: lot here. No, they didn't stop anything.

791
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:45,960
Speaker 1: What would it take for you not to go out

792
00:50:46,000 --> 00:50:46,720
Speaker 1: on your walk?

793
00:50:47,760 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 2: One night, I was out after midnight and the police

794
00:50:51,680 --> 00:50:56,879
Speaker 2: stopped me, and there was somebody who I don't understand

795
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:59,000
Speaker 2: if it was somebody who ran away from home or

796
00:50:59,000 --> 00:51:03,080
Speaker 2: they were looking for the police. And there were helicopters overhead, right,

797
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:05,240
Speaker 2: I don't know if it was somebody who had wandered

798
00:51:05,280 --> 00:51:07,600
Speaker 2: away from their home or run away from home. They

799
00:51:07,600 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: wouldn't tell me, right, but they just said, you can't

800
00:51:10,520 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 2: be out here, and they put me in the police

801
00:51:13,160 --> 00:51:18,400
Speaker 2: car and drove me home. And the second they were gone,

802
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:21,320
Speaker 2: I went out to get you in the other direction,

803
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:23,960
Speaker 2: and I just thought, well, if I see the police

804
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:26,319
Speaker 2: car coming, I'll just run into the woods. You know.

805
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:29,520
Speaker 1: Let's say I was in your house and I locked

806
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:32,400
Speaker 1: all the doors and I said, you cannot leave today.

807
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:34,960
Speaker 1: What would be going on inside your mind?

808
00:51:38,120 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 2: Uh? Well, how I would overpower you? Because like even

809
00:51:47,719 --> 00:51:52,239
Speaker 2: the pandemic, that didn't stop me, you know. But it

810
00:51:52,239 --> 00:51:54,520
Speaker 2: would have been different if I'd been in Paris, because

811
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:56,839
Speaker 2: in France you had to have a document to go out.

812
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,000
Speaker 2: You had to and the police would check your documents.

813
00:52:00,280 --> 00:52:02,359
Speaker 2: I guess you downloaded it and you have to put

814
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:04,279
Speaker 2: the time you leave and all that stuff. So that

815
00:52:04,320 --> 00:52:06,439
Speaker 2: would have been a hardship for me. But I would

816
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:08,680
Speaker 2: have just left the country that that had been the thing,

817
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:10,879
Speaker 2: and I would have gone to a place where they

818
00:52:10,880 --> 00:52:13,120
Speaker 2: didn't have They weren't quite so strict.

819
00:52:14,080 --> 00:52:18,160
Speaker 1: Well, I guess, are you tortured by this? It's one

820
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:20,520
Speaker 1: thing to do it. It's another thing to say I

821
00:52:20,600 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 1: have to do it or I just won't feel right.

822
00:52:24,080 --> 00:52:30,520
Speaker 2: No, un tortured, Yeah, no, it becomes It's it's like

823
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:34,400
Speaker 2: I really admire people who have hobbies.

824
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 1: You do know that there's therapy for this? Now? Yeah,

825
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: if I said I could get you with a therapist

826
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:51,800
Speaker 1: such that you would not be tortured. Is that something

827
00:52:51,880 --> 00:52:54,240
Speaker 1: you would be thumbs up or thumbs down about.

828
00:52:55,760 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: I'd be thumbs down because I feel like the things

829
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 2: that I do are good things to do. Right, It's

830
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,160
Speaker 2: good to walk, It's good to walk.

831
00:53:07,560 --> 00:53:11,640
Speaker 1: Okay, all that rationalization is good. But the question is

832
00:53:12,239 --> 00:53:15,719
Speaker 1: to what degree are you tortured? To what degree does

833
00:53:15,760 --> 00:53:18,400
Speaker 1: it interfere with you living your regular life?

834
00:53:20,600 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 2: Well, I'm always I always think like I can handle this,

835
00:53:23,640 --> 00:53:27,120
Speaker 2: but see, then what happens is that I go on tour, right,

836
00:53:28,480 --> 00:53:32,839
Speaker 2: and then on tour you don't have control. You know,

837
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:37,160
Speaker 2: you're out of your You're out of your environment.

838
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:37,759
Speaker 1: Right.

839
00:53:38,400 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 2: So sometimes it'll happen that a plane will be delayed

840
00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:48,160
Speaker 2: or canceled, and then my agent will call and say

841
00:53:48,239 --> 00:53:50,799
Speaker 2: we've sent a car and a car is going to

842
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,279
Speaker 2: take you seven hours to somewhere, right, And I'm like

843
00:53:54,920 --> 00:53:57,160
Speaker 2: seven hours. I can't get my steps in. If I'm

844
00:53:57,160 --> 00:53:59,320
Speaker 2: in a car for seven hours, right, what am I

845
00:53:59,360 --> 00:54:05,200
Speaker 2: going to do? So what I do in that situation

846
00:54:05,360 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: is I get I mean, so in case that should happen,

847
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 2: I would never leave my hotel in the morning with

848
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:19,160
Speaker 2: no steps right, so I would have gotten up. If

849
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 2: it means getting up at five o'clock in the morning,

850
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 2: I'll get up at five o'clock the monay it means

851
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:24,600
Speaker 2: getting about four o'clock in the morning, I get up

852
00:54:24,600 --> 00:54:27,640
Speaker 2: at four o'clock in the morning right, just on the

853
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:30,960
Speaker 2: off chance that that might happen. And then one time

854
00:54:32,520 --> 00:54:35,560
Speaker 2: I was thrown into a car for eight hours and

855
00:54:36,280 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 2: I hadn't met the minimum right number of steps I need.

856
00:54:41,440 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 2: And so I was signing this young woman's book and

857
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 2: I said, what are you going to do now? She said,

858
00:54:45,640 --> 00:54:48,160
Speaker 2: now nothing, I'm not doing anything. And I think she

859
00:54:48,200 --> 00:54:49,720
Speaker 2: thought I was going to ask her out to dinner.

860
00:54:50,360 --> 00:54:52,320
Speaker 2: And I said, great, I'll give you twenty dollars to

861
00:54:52,360 --> 00:54:54,120
Speaker 2: go out and walk two miles. And I put my

862
00:54:54,200 --> 00:54:56,840
Speaker 2: Apple watch on her and I gave her twenty dollars,

863
00:54:57,480 --> 00:54:59,839
Speaker 2: and I had her walk for me.

864
00:55:00,000 --> 00:55:03,000
Speaker 1: Well, a little bit slower. Why does her walk work

865
00:55:03,080 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: because it's on your watch and therefore it's part of

866
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:06,319
Speaker 1: the chart I gave him.

867
00:55:06,520 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 2: I put my watch on her wrist, so and I

868
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:10,040
Speaker 2: sent her out to walk for.

869
00:55:11,800 --> 00:55:15,399
Speaker 1: I understand what you did, but you're saying it's more

870
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,920
Speaker 1: about the number on your watch than what's going on

871
00:55:19,080 --> 00:55:20,839
Speaker 1: inside you as a human being.

872
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 2: Well, no, because we have some French friends who are

873
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,480
Speaker 2: staying right now with us, and they went to the

874
00:55:26,560 --> 00:55:29,839
Speaker 2: village and back today and when they left, I thought, fuck,

875
00:55:29,920 --> 00:55:32,720
Speaker 2: I should have given him my watch, you know, to wear,

876
00:55:32,880 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 2: because that would have been an extra six miles. But no,

877
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:40,000
Speaker 2: that's different because they weren't six miles that I would

878
00:55:40,040 --> 00:55:42,879
Speaker 2: have earned, you know what I mean, Like, I'm in

879
00:55:42,920 --> 00:55:47,040
Speaker 2: my environment, I'll earn the miles, I'll earn the steps.

880
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:51,760
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, so somebody has to earn the miles. Generally speaking,

881
00:55:51,800 --> 00:55:54,920
Speaker 1: it doesn't have to be you. You want it to be you,

882
00:55:55,320 --> 00:55:58,120
Speaker 1: But if it's someone else, that would be okay.

883
00:55:58,239 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 2: Because I have When I look at my watch, it

884
00:56:02,960 --> 00:56:08,000
Speaker 2: tells me that I have a perfect record for one thousand,

885
00:56:08,160 --> 00:56:12,040
Speaker 2: seven hundred and seventy nine days. Right, I've had a

886
00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:17,400
Speaker 2: perfect record on my Apple Watch. I cannot lose that

887
00:56:18,560 --> 00:56:19,320
Speaker 2: perfect record.

888
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:21,319
Speaker 1: Just so I know how many steps is that?

889
00:56:22,680 --> 00:56:25,200
Speaker 2: Oh a set to I have to walk like ten

890
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:29,760
Speaker 2: thousand steps a day, which is nothing. That's like depend

891
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: It's just like four and a half miles.

892
00:56:31,920 --> 00:56:34,239
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, let's get into it for a minute. I

893
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: had a fit bit, and the accuracy of the step

894
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:42,920
Speaker 1: count on the fit bit was completely different from what

895
00:56:42,960 --> 00:56:45,680
Speaker 1: it was on the phone. I mean, there are certain

896
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: times I'll be hiking in the mountains and I know

897
00:56:47,880 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 1: the altitude difference and the phone does not register it,

898
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:56,000
Speaker 1: whereas the fit bit did. Are you just locked into

899
00:56:56,040 --> 00:56:58,560
Speaker 1: the equipment or do you ever think about, well, it's

900
00:56:58,560 --> 00:56:59,240
Speaker 1: this accurate.

901
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:01,879
Speaker 2: Well, for a long time I had a fit bit

902
00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 2: and an Apple Watch, and I wore them both. But

903
00:57:05,440 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 2: then I thought I was too old to have two

904
00:57:08,400 --> 00:57:11,680
Speaker 2: things on my wrist, so I just have the Apple Watch.

905
00:57:11,760 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 2: Now they were close enough, you know, I felt like

906
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:17,840
Speaker 2: the two things were pretty close. I've never used my

907
00:57:17,960 --> 00:57:20,280
Speaker 2: phone to check my steps. I've never done that.

908
00:57:20,840 --> 00:57:22,439
Speaker 1: Well, you can look on her in the health app.

909
00:57:22,480 --> 00:57:27,320
Speaker 1: I find it wildly inaccurate. So what about the swimming, Although.

910
00:57:27,320 --> 00:57:31,240
Speaker 2: My record is I walked forty two miles in a day.

911
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 1: You know, we are not young people by the standards

912
00:57:35,480 --> 00:57:40,240
Speaker 1: of human life. You walk that much, does your body hurt?

913
00:57:40,960 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 2: Yeah? It hurt for days afterwards. Forty two miles was like,

914
00:57:46,320 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 2: that's a really long walk. I started at midnight. I

915
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:51,880
Speaker 2: did it with a friend of mine and we came

916
00:57:51,960 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 2: back at six in the morning, and we rested for

917
00:57:54,640 --> 00:57:57,160
Speaker 2: three hours, and we went out again, came home for lunch,

918
00:57:57,200 --> 00:58:01,920
Speaker 2: went out again, came home for dinner. Uh yeah, that

919
00:58:02,040 --> 00:58:05,160
Speaker 2: was a real accomplishment.

920
00:58:05,800 --> 00:58:08,600
Speaker 1: Well, most sports industries, court and I've had plenty of

921
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 1: talk to the doctors, are from over use. So as

922
00:58:11,920 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 1: we sit here now, since you've been walking using the

923
00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:18,560
Speaker 1: same muscles, et cetera, how's your body right now?

924
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,720
Speaker 2: Oh, that's pretty good. I mean, my poor boyfriend, Hugh,

925
00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:30,800
Speaker 2: he's got like, you know, sciatica, and you know, his

926
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: hip bothers him, and I just feel bad for him.

927
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,760
Speaker 2: I don't really have anything like that, you know, I

928
00:58:35,800 --> 00:58:43,680
Speaker 2: don't have anything that's that troubles me. And then he

929
00:58:43,760 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 2: had a pool put in and so then it's like,

930
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,800
Speaker 2: you know, gonna have to swim.

931
00:58:51,800 --> 00:58:52,840
Speaker 1: How many laps a day?

932
00:58:54,760 --> 00:58:58,480
Speaker 2: Oh, not that, you know, not that many laps, like,

933
00:58:59,240 --> 00:59:04,200
Speaker 2: you know, just it's a lap pool. But before I

934
00:59:04,240 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 2: was caught in this swimming thing and then that because

935
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:09,520
Speaker 2: swim is really boring to me, And then I would

936
00:59:09,520 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 2: swim a mile every time I went to the pool,

937
00:59:12,600 --> 00:59:15,640
Speaker 2: and that's so boring to me. So now it's like

938
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 2: just a quarter of a mile. It's not that much,

939
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 2: but it's still something I have to do.

940
00:59:19,720 --> 00:59:24,080
Speaker 1: And how much is this exercises about? We control body image.

941
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:29,080
Speaker 2: I eat a lot of food, Like I can eat

942
00:59:29,280 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 2: anybody under the table. I will eat as long as

943
00:59:33,280 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 2: there's food on the table. I will eat your food.

944
00:59:38,040 --> 00:59:41,480
Speaker 2: I will eat the person next to you, I'll eat

945
00:59:41,520 --> 00:59:43,320
Speaker 2: their food. I'll say, are you going to finish that?

946
00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:50,000
Speaker 2: And so it's I just have to exercise a lot

947
00:59:50,080 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 2: if I'm going to continue to eat the way that

948
00:59:52,800 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 2: I do.

949
00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:57,680
Speaker 1: And were you always insatiable or eating well available?

950
00:59:58,960 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 2: And it's funny, my bro he eats the same way

951
01:00:01,440 --> 01:00:05,200
Speaker 2: I do, and it's shocking to watch him eat, you know,

952
01:00:05,320 --> 01:00:07,160
Speaker 2: but we eat the same way. I don't know if

953
01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:10,360
Speaker 2: it was six kids and you're just always convinced there's

954
01:00:10,400 --> 01:00:12,640
Speaker 2: not going to be enough food and you have to

955
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:17,600
Speaker 2: really you eat with your handguarding your plate, you know,

956
01:00:17,640 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 2: corraling your plate, and you just shovel it in and

957
01:00:20,440 --> 01:00:25,320
Speaker 2: then you fight for seconds. And we weren't poor, you know,

958
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:29,320
Speaker 2: it was you know, let's say all the chicken was gone, well,

959
01:00:29,720 --> 01:00:32,360
Speaker 2: there would still be stuff. You could make a sandwich

960
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:37,280
Speaker 2: or you could you know, make yourself a pancake or something.

961
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:41,280
Speaker 2: It wasn't off limits, you know, the kitchen wasn't off

962
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,640
Speaker 2: limits to you. But I don't know, am I other

963
01:00:44,680 --> 01:00:46,760
Speaker 2: people in my family don't eat that way, but just

964
01:00:46,840 --> 01:00:47,560
Speaker 2: my brother and me.

965
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:51,840
Speaker 1: And does it matter what kind of food it is.

966
01:00:52,000 --> 01:00:54,480
Speaker 1: It could be junk food, it could be gourmet food,

967
01:00:54,560 --> 01:00:56,760
Speaker 1: just as long as it's no I'm.

968
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 2: Not a big I'm not a big junk food person,

969
01:01:04,280 --> 01:01:06,720
Speaker 2: and I'm not a food snob. I mean, he was

970
01:01:06,720 --> 01:01:15,040
Speaker 2: a really good cook, uh but and I don't like it,

971
01:01:15,160 --> 01:01:19,320
Speaker 2: you know. I don't want to come home at two

972
01:01:19,360 --> 01:01:21,439
Speaker 2: thirty in the morning after a walk, and I don't

973
01:01:21,480 --> 01:01:23,720
Speaker 2: want to sit there in front of the refrigerator and

974
01:01:23,840 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 2: eat cheese. You know. That doesn't make me feel good

975
01:01:28,040 --> 01:01:33,720
Speaker 2: about myself. I bought all these crazy outfits to wear

976
01:01:33,760 --> 01:01:38,520
Speaker 2: on tour, and they're really expensive, you know. And I

977
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 2: would just feel like such a loser if I was

978
01:01:44,800 --> 01:01:47,680
Speaker 2: too big to fit into him, you know. So that's

979
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:50,320
Speaker 2: a lot of it right there. I gotta I have

980
01:01:50,400 --> 01:01:54,920
Speaker 2: to do this so I can fit into like a

981
01:01:54,960 --> 01:02:01,240
Speaker 2: backless floor length sport coach. Just crazy stuff.

982
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,360
Speaker 1: When did this clothing obsession begin?

983
01:02:12,720 --> 01:02:16,840
Speaker 2: I always when I started reading out Loud. I was

984
01:02:16,880 --> 01:02:21,680
Speaker 2: living in Chicago, and I would go to other people's readings,

985
01:02:22,040 --> 01:02:24,840
Speaker 2: and you know, people would usually I wasn't the only

986
01:02:24,840 --> 01:02:26,800
Speaker 2: one on the bill. Maybe they'd be like three or

987
01:02:26,800 --> 01:02:29,480
Speaker 2: four people on the belt, and I would just notice

988
01:02:29,520 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 2: people would get up there and they would be wearing

989
01:02:33,280 --> 01:02:34,880
Speaker 2: you know, they would just looked like they were mowing

990
01:02:34,920 --> 01:02:37,280
Speaker 2: their lawn. And then thought, oh fuck, I have that

991
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,800
Speaker 2: show to do tonight. But I always got dressed up

992
01:02:41,240 --> 01:02:44,240
Speaker 2: because just so the audience would know you made an effort,

993
01:02:44,520 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: you know that you that if nothing else, you know,

994
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:52,560
Speaker 2: you're going to try something new, and maybe it wouldn't work,

995
01:02:53,440 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 2: but you took it seriously enough to put a tie

996
01:02:57,400 --> 01:03:03,880
Speaker 2: on right, And and then it just got more abstract,

997
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:07,000
Speaker 2: you know, as the years passed, Like I always you know,

998
01:03:07,040 --> 01:03:10,400
Speaker 2: I used to wear a jacket a tie, and then

999
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:14,240
Speaker 2: a jacket and a tie, and then oh now, I

1000
01:03:14,280 --> 01:03:17,920
Speaker 2: mean I just bought a jacket that doesn't have any arms.

1001
01:03:18,040 --> 01:03:21,800
Speaker 2: It's not a cape. It's just a jacket that doesn't

1002
01:03:21,880 --> 01:03:25,520
Speaker 2: have any arms. We're just like wearing a bell. We

1003
01:03:25,680 --> 01:03:29,600
Speaker 2: just want to find that come to Girlson. It's a

1004
01:03:29,840 --> 01:03:35,120
Speaker 2: it's a Japanese designer Ray Kawakuba, who has a company

1005
01:03:35,160 --> 01:03:38,440
Speaker 2: called Come to Girlson And it's like a plaid bell

1006
01:03:39,120 --> 01:03:46,520
Speaker 2: right that I'm gonna wear on stage. And then I

1007
01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:50,360
Speaker 2: also got for this tour. It's like a black sport

1008
01:03:50,440 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 2: coat that's cut off at the bottom of the ribcage

1009
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 2: with scissors. But then in the back it's like one

1010
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:01,680
Speaker 2: of those pillows that people use on lanes, you know,

1011
01:04:01,720 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 2: Tho's neck fellows is sewn into the back, so you

1012
01:04:05,920 --> 01:04:14,720
Speaker 2: have a hump back and this abbreviated jacket with it,

1013
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,080
Speaker 2: and all I do is think about what I'm going

1014
01:04:18,160 --> 01:04:19,400
Speaker 2: to pair it with. You know.

1015
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 1: Okay, you know a musician goes on the road, he

1016
01:04:25,360 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 1: literally brings a wardrobe trunk. How many outfits do you

1017
01:04:29,960 --> 01:04:31,840
Speaker 1: bring on the road and how do you decide what

1018
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:33,439
Speaker 1: to bring and how do you carry them?

1019
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:38,840
Speaker 2: I just bring, you know, last year I started bringing

1020
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,680
Speaker 2: two suitcases, well a suitcase and then a Duffel bag.

1021
01:04:43,160 --> 01:04:45,320
Speaker 2: And you know, there's no turning back once you add

1022
01:04:45,320 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 2: that second bag, there's no turning back. So now I'm

1023
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:52,160
Speaker 2: a two bag person. But I'm just gonna Usually I

1024
01:04:52,200 --> 01:04:54,640
Speaker 2: just bring one sport coat to wear on stage, but

1025
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:57,520
Speaker 2: I'll just have two this time. But one doesn't have

1026
01:04:57,560 --> 01:04:59,800
Speaker 2: any arms and the other one's cut off in the middle.

1027
01:05:00,400 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 2: They're only taking up as much room as well as

1028
01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 2: and then you know theaters usually have washes and dryers,

1029
01:05:09,680 --> 01:05:12,400
Speaker 2: you know, big theaters, right, So I don't need to

1030
01:05:12,400 --> 01:05:16,000
Speaker 2: bring that many shirts, and maybe I'll bring, like I

1031
01:05:16,000 --> 01:05:20,720
Speaker 2: don't know, three pairs of shoes, you know, a pair

1032
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:23,400
Speaker 2: of sneakers from when I go walking or go to

1033
01:05:23,440 --> 01:05:26,000
Speaker 2: the fitness center. And then two pairs of a pair

1034
01:05:26,040 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 2: of airport shoes and a pair of because sometimes you know,

1035
01:05:30,200 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 2: your luggage gets lost and you don't want to show

1036
01:05:33,160 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 2: up at the theater looking like a slob, you know,

1037
01:05:39,840 --> 01:05:42,040
Speaker 2: so you need that extra pair of shoes and you

1038
01:05:42,080 --> 01:05:44,880
Speaker 2: need airport clothes, right.

1039
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:50,000
Speaker 1: Okay, the musicians, the super successful ones, there is a

1040
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: very thin elite that they'll locate in one town and

1041
01:05:53,360 --> 01:05:56,800
Speaker 1: fly out for each gig. But most of the others,

1042
01:05:56,880 --> 01:06:00,640
Speaker 1: just one step down, have all given up flying to

1043
01:06:00,720 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 1: be in the bus because the bus leaves when the

1044
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:06,440
Speaker 1: gig is over and it arrives, you're not waiting in

1045
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:10,560
Speaker 1: the airport, et cetera. Is that something you ever thought about?

1046
01:06:10,800 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 2: Something they've talked to me about a boss, And but

1047
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:18,600
Speaker 2: The thing about a boss is, let's say you get

1048
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:21,000
Speaker 2: on the bus and then you go to the hotel

1049
01:06:21,080 --> 01:06:21,840
Speaker 2: the next morning.

1050
01:06:22,920 --> 01:06:23,680
Speaker 1: That's what you do.

1051
01:06:23,800 --> 01:06:30,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's I mean, I'd be willing to give

1052
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:32,840
Speaker 2: it a try for a while and see, you know,

1053
01:06:32,880 --> 01:06:37,600
Speaker 2: I'd give it an honest try. But what if you're

1054
01:06:37,640 --> 01:06:39,280
Speaker 2: just going like four hours.

1055
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:43,720
Speaker 1: Well, the nature of the bus is the bus is

1056
01:06:44,440 --> 01:06:48,640
Speaker 1: got all your amenities and has space, so it leaves

1057
01:06:48,720 --> 01:06:52,400
Speaker 1: when the gig is over. You don't burn all that time.

1058
01:06:52,440 --> 01:06:54,520
Speaker 1: You don't have to wear a schedule. So if you

1059
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: were sleeping when you get to the destination, you continue

1060
01:06:58,960 --> 01:07:03,320
Speaker 1: to sleep. If you're up, check into the hotel. Yeah,

1061
01:07:03,800 --> 01:07:05,800
Speaker 1: let me go one step willing to try it, let's

1062
01:07:05,800 --> 01:07:08,520
Speaker 1: go one step further. You are you know you have

1063
01:07:08,600 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 1: one of the best gigs of all time. Maybe you

1064
01:07:11,160 --> 01:07:15,960
Speaker 1: travel with a microphone at most. Okay, and you ever

1065
01:07:16,760 --> 01:07:19,320
Speaker 1: hire a plane fly private from gig to gig.

1066
01:07:19,840 --> 01:07:22,720
Speaker 2: Well, you know, one time I was doing a show

1067
01:07:22,720 --> 01:07:25,880
Speaker 2: in Santa Barbara and I was flying out of Portland, Oregon,

1068
01:07:26,080 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 2: and the plane was delayed, delayed, delayed, then canceled. So

1069
01:07:29,960 --> 01:07:33,080
Speaker 2: my agent called and said, I've gotten you a I

1070
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:36,400
Speaker 2: booked you a private plane, get your luggage back. You're

1071
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:40,120
Speaker 2: going next door to the airport. There's a And it

1072
01:07:40,160 --> 01:07:44,920
Speaker 2: turns out that next door to every big airport right

1073
01:07:45,040 --> 01:07:51,760
Speaker 2: there's it's called a clubhouse. Then there's no security. You

1074
01:07:52,400 --> 01:07:55,120
Speaker 2: don't have to turn anything off, you don't have to

1075
01:07:55,200 --> 01:07:58,360
Speaker 2: fasten your seat belt, you don't have to do anything

1076
01:07:58,400 --> 01:08:00,560
Speaker 2: you don't want to do. And the first time I

1077
01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:03,720
Speaker 2: flew private, I thought, why didn't I do this every day?

1078
01:08:04,320 --> 01:08:07,360
Speaker 2: And then I found out it was ten thousand dollars

1079
01:08:07,400 --> 01:08:09,680
Speaker 2: and I had to pay for it, And I said,

1080
01:08:09,960 --> 01:08:13,400
Speaker 2: how was that fair? You know, like the theater, if

1081
01:08:13,440 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 2: I'd had to cancel the show, they would have to

1082
01:08:15,960 --> 01:08:20,840
Speaker 2: refund all that money. And my agent's still getting a cut, right,

1083
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 2: so how is it that I have to pay the

1084
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:27,240
Speaker 2: ten thousand dollars? Anyway, we wounded up splitting it three ways,

1085
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:30,080
Speaker 2: so every now and then that'll happen. You know that

1086
01:08:30,200 --> 01:08:34,280
Speaker 2: I have to take a private plane, but I'd never

1087
01:08:35,680 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 2: have asked for one, or I've never you know, it's

1088
01:08:40,000 --> 01:08:43,600
Speaker 2: enough already to have people say, aren't you ashamed of

1089
01:08:43,640 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 2: yourself for flying on airplanes? And I think, well, the

1090
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,559
Speaker 2: plane wouldn't be The plane is going to New York,

1091
01:08:49,640 --> 01:08:53,760
Speaker 2: whether I'm monitored or not. But a private plane that's

1092
01:08:53,760 --> 01:08:56,479
Speaker 2: a little bit different because it's not going to New York.

1093
01:08:56,520 --> 01:09:02,760
Speaker 2: You know, it's not going to Cleveland, whether or not

1094
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,000
Speaker 2: you're on, if you're not honored, it's not going to Cleveland,

1095
01:09:06,360 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 2: although you.

1096
01:09:06,840 --> 01:09:09,680
Speaker 1: Know are There are these new airlines like JSX in

1097
01:09:09,760 --> 01:09:12,840
Speaker 1: the West, which hold like twenty to forty people. But

1098
01:09:12,880 --> 01:09:15,120
Speaker 1: it's like flying private. I mean, you have to get there,

1099
01:09:15,160 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 1: but you only have to get there twenty minutes before.

1100
01:09:18,240 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 1: There's no security. Yeah, google it JSX, but they don't

1101
01:09:23,800 --> 01:09:27,320
Speaker 1: fly absolutely everywhere you have to be going where they're flying.

1102
01:09:29,280 --> 01:09:36,000
Speaker 2: Wow JSX, Yeah, huh, I'll fuck it.

1103
01:09:36,640 --> 01:09:40,479
Speaker 1: And it can be mine, you know it can. At

1104
01:09:40,520 --> 01:09:43,960
Speaker 1: some times I had to fly to Denver and they

1105
01:09:44,000 --> 01:09:47,519
Speaker 1: fly to Bloomfield as opposed to da which is east

1106
01:09:47,560 --> 01:09:51,640
Speaker 1: of Denver by a significant amount whatever, it ended up

1107
01:09:51,640 --> 01:09:54,519
Speaker 1: being cheaper because it turns out if you rent a

1108
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:57,439
Speaker 1: car in the suburbs, it's actually cheaper than renting the

1109
01:09:57,520 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 1: car at the airport.

1110
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 2: Oh, I never learned to drive.

1111
01:10:04,160 --> 01:10:07,680
Speaker 1: You never. Let's let's wait, let's go back just a

1112
01:10:07,800 --> 01:10:12,920
Speaker 1: chapter before that. What do people not understand about the

1113
01:10:12,960 --> 01:10:16,360
Speaker 1: rest of the world, you're a world traveler, you live

1114
01:10:16,400 --> 01:10:18,759
Speaker 1: in the UK, have a house in Paris, et cetera.

1115
01:10:19,360 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 1: We have a very closed minded, ethnocentric population and they

1116
01:10:24,680 --> 01:10:27,400
Speaker 1: hear socialism and they run away. What do people not

1117
01:10:27,560 --> 01:10:29,639
Speaker 1: understand about life and the rest of the world.

1118
01:10:33,200 --> 01:10:39,840
Speaker 2: Uh, oh gosh, there's so much they don't understand, you know.

1119
01:10:39,920 --> 01:10:45,560
Speaker 2: Like one thing, Americans I think tend to feel like

1120
01:10:45,560 --> 01:10:49,120
Speaker 2: like when it comes to it's an outdated term. But

1121
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,759
Speaker 2: like when I was in Germany in Italy last week

1122
01:10:53,680 --> 01:10:57,880
Speaker 2: on book tours, every question was about political correctness, which

1123
01:10:57,920 --> 01:11:00,360
Speaker 2: is an outdated term in the United States. Not sure

1124
01:11:00,439 --> 01:11:02,559
Speaker 2: what it's been replaced by, but I know that it

1125
01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:06,479
Speaker 2: feels outdated. Americans think that that the only ones in

1126
01:11:06,520 --> 01:11:11,080
Speaker 2: the world who are have undergone a sea change in

1127
01:11:11,160 --> 01:11:15,840
Speaker 2: terms of language and behaviors, and it's happening everywhere. You know,

1128
01:11:17,360 --> 01:11:20,920
Speaker 2: Americans believe that they have the best healthcare in the world,

1129
01:11:21,040 --> 01:11:23,840
Speaker 2: which is not even not even in the top ten.

1130
01:11:24,600 --> 01:11:28,519
Speaker 2: You know. I just always feel like everyone should just

1131
01:11:29,200 --> 01:11:32,879
Speaker 2: get out more. You know. When I lived in Paris,

1132
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:36,040
Speaker 2: one time I flew back to New York and there

1133
01:11:36,080 --> 01:11:37,920
Speaker 2: were these students on the plane and they kissed the

1134
01:11:37,960 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 2: ground when they got off the plane, and I thought,

1135
01:11:40,240 --> 01:11:43,519
Speaker 2: because you couldn't get a big gulp what I mean, like,

1136
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:49,800
Speaker 2: how how bad was France? You know? But it's true

1137
01:11:49,840 --> 01:11:51,920
Speaker 2: you can't get a big gulp and carry it into

1138
01:11:51,960 --> 01:11:54,640
Speaker 2: a store. People would be like, no, you can't do

1139
01:11:54,760 --> 01:12:00,000
Speaker 2: that here. I just don't always interested like the free

1140
01:12:00,000 --> 01:12:02,760
Speaker 2: items that so many people in America are concerned with,

1141
01:12:02,920 --> 01:12:06,000
Speaker 2: you know, like I need to be free to bring

1142
01:12:06,040 --> 01:12:10,559
Speaker 2: a gun to Starbucks, which is just not but here

1143
01:12:10,640 --> 01:12:13,720
Speaker 2: you're free to send your kid to school and not

1144
01:12:13,840 --> 01:12:16,280
Speaker 2: worry that your kid's going to get shot up, you know.

1145
01:12:17,080 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 2: So they're they're trade offs, right. There was an artarticle

1146
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:29,439
Speaker 2: in the New York Times a couple of days ago,

1147
01:12:30,600 --> 01:12:34,719
Speaker 2: and it was about in Korea, if you're a senior citizen,

1148
01:12:34,840 --> 01:12:38,360
Speaker 2: you get to ride the subway for free, right, And

1149
01:12:38,439 --> 01:12:42,600
Speaker 2: so it was people in Seoul riding the subway and

1150
01:12:42,640 --> 01:12:46,640
Speaker 2: it was so delicious to read the comments, you know,

1151
01:12:47,240 --> 01:12:48,680
Speaker 2: and it was in the New York Times. So the

1152
01:12:48,720 --> 01:12:51,519
Speaker 2: comments aren't like you're a fat, no you are, you know,

1153
01:12:51,560 --> 01:12:55,040
Speaker 2: they're thoughtful comments. But everyone was the same thing, like

1154
01:12:55,240 --> 01:12:59,720
Speaker 2: they couldn't imagine riding the subway for pleasure, and what

1155
01:12:59,720 --> 01:13:06,560
Speaker 2: they saw a sparkling, clean subway. You know, nobody playing music, nobody,

1156
01:13:08,000 --> 01:13:14,719
Speaker 2: nobody's sleeping, nobody stretched out, nobody eating. Like the rest

1157
01:13:14,720 --> 01:13:18,040
Speaker 2: of the world has a whole lot to recommend it,

1158
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:21,840
Speaker 2: you know, really does. I just feel like it would

1159
01:13:21,880 --> 01:13:24,920
Speaker 2: just do everybody some good to just get out and

1160
01:13:25,000 --> 01:13:28,240
Speaker 2: just see what's going on in other places.

1161
01:13:28,880 --> 01:13:32,720
Speaker 1: Okay, for me, the more exotic the place, the more

1162
01:13:32,760 --> 01:13:34,720
Speaker 1: I'm into it. I mean, England is great, but they

1163
01:13:34,760 --> 01:13:37,759
Speaker 1: speak English. I once went on a business trip about

1164
01:13:37,760 --> 01:13:41,679
Speaker 1: ten years ago to Colombia and everybody who was around

1165
01:13:41,680 --> 01:13:45,960
Speaker 1: me they'd had a family member shot and killed. And

1166
01:13:46,040 --> 01:13:48,760
Speaker 1: it was just a fascinating place. So where have been

1167
01:13:48,800 --> 01:13:51,080
Speaker 1: the more fascinating places that you have been?

1168
01:13:53,000 --> 01:14:01,960
Speaker 2: Law? India, Uh, Vietnam. I'm going to Pakistan in a

1169
01:14:02,000 --> 01:14:15,759
Speaker 2: few months. That should be pretty interesting. Uh, Brazil was Uh, China.

1170
01:14:17,920 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm with you, like, you know, when you've

1171
01:14:21,920 --> 01:14:27,040
Speaker 2: got uh, it's nice to have nothing to hold on

1172
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:28,960
Speaker 2: to and you have to look at the people around

1173
01:14:29,000 --> 01:14:32,160
Speaker 2: you and just do what they do. And I'm always

1174
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:35,640
Speaker 2: surprised by that when I traveled with other people and

1175
01:14:35,680 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 2: that they don't do that. And then I'd say, like,

1176
01:14:39,120 --> 01:14:42,639
Speaker 2: do you not notice that nobody is standing side by

1177
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:46,200
Speaker 2: side on the escalator, like if you've not looked around

1178
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:48,719
Speaker 2: and noticed that. The first time I went to Tokyo,

1179
01:14:49,560 --> 01:14:53,400
Speaker 2: I got off the the Narita Express in the middle

1180
01:14:53,400 --> 01:14:55,439
Speaker 2: of town and I lit a cigarette, and then I

1181
01:14:55,439 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 2: looked around and I noticed nobody was smoking. So I

1182
01:15:00,200 --> 01:15:03,519
Speaker 2: put the cigarette out, and I noticed there were no

1183
01:15:03,720 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 2: cigarette butts on the street, and I thought, we'll just

1184
01:15:06,120 --> 01:15:08,000
Speaker 2: put it in trash can, and I noticed there were

1185
01:15:08,080 --> 01:15:10,719
Speaker 2: no trash cans, so I put it in the cuff

1186
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:13,800
Speaker 2: of my pants right and then threw it away when

1187
01:15:13,800 --> 01:15:18,240
Speaker 2: I got to my hotel. But I love when you're

1188
01:15:18,240 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 2: in a situation like that and you just don't know

1189
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:25,400
Speaker 2: the rules, and it just makes you super observant. It's

1190
01:15:26,240 --> 01:15:30,680
Speaker 2: a gift to have to be observant like that.

1191
01:15:32,080 --> 01:15:34,040
Speaker 1: And where have you not been that you want to go?

1192
01:15:36,200 --> 01:15:44,080
Speaker 2: I've been to Africa except for Northern Africa. But I

1193
01:15:44,160 --> 01:15:46,800
Speaker 2: was on a plane one day and there was a

1194
01:15:47,120 --> 01:15:52,760
Speaker 2: I was flying from Paris to Lisbon, and there was

1195
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:56,280
Speaker 2: a fellow in the window seat, and then an empty seat,

1196
01:15:56,320 --> 01:16:00,080
Speaker 2: and then me, and at one point the fellow in

1197
01:16:00,120 --> 01:16:05,640
Speaker 2: the window seat put a plastic bag of euro coins

1198
01:16:06,160 --> 01:16:10,400
Speaker 2: on the seat, the empty seat, And I said, is

1199
01:16:10,439 --> 01:16:13,320
Speaker 2: that sixty eight dollars worth of euro change? And he said,

1200
01:16:13,360 --> 01:16:16,200
Speaker 2: that is exactly sixty eight dollars worth of euro change.

1201
01:16:16,960 --> 01:16:19,840
Speaker 2: And he is a doctor, this guy, and he buys

1202
01:16:19,960 --> 01:16:24,320
Speaker 2: change on the internet, right, buy let's say one hundred

1203
01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:29,559
Speaker 2: dollars worth of change for ninety dollars, right. So he

1204
01:16:29,680 --> 01:16:33,599
Speaker 2: buys change and then he goes on vacation with it.

1205
01:16:34,120 --> 01:16:36,880
Speaker 2: But the bill will come and help. It's like he

1206
01:16:37,040 --> 01:16:41,880
Speaker 2: pays for a bill with twenty p and fifty p

1207
01:16:42,960 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 2: a one pound coins, right, So it was just so

1208
01:16:49,439 --> 01:16:53,080
Speaker 2: funny to me. Anyway, he is that turned out to

1209
01:16:53,120 --> 01:16:57,200
Speaker 2: be a doctor, and he travels around the world and

1210
01:16:57,400 --> 01:17:01,519
Speaker 2: he he does a lot of things for free, like

1211
01:17:01,680 --> 01:17:04,759
Speaker 2: maxillo facial surgeons, you know, like if somebody is born

1212
01:17:04,840 --> 01:17:07,280
Speaker 2: with and so he said, why don't you come with me?

1213
01:17:08,640 --> 01:17:11,480
Speaker 2: He said, because I always wanted to go to Lagos, Nigeria.

1214
01:17:12,000 --> 01:17:15,000
Speaker 2: You can't really go there on vacation, you know what

1215
01:17:15,000 --> 01:17:17,439
Speaker 2: I mean, you can't go on I don't want to

1216
01:17:17,439 --> 01:17:19,200
Speaker 2: go on vacation to a place where they don't have

1217
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 2: a word for vacation, you know. So but this way

1218
01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:27,160
Speaker 2: I could go, and I could I don't know, hold

1219
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:30,400
Speaker 2: somebody down while he makes him a new nose or something,

1220
01:17:30,520 --> 01:17:32,799
Speaker 2: you know. And I thought, oh, that'd be the perfect

1221
01:17:32,840 --> 01:17:40,600
Speaker 2: way to go, because I'd like to. I'd like to.

1222
01:17:43,120 --> 01:17:46,599
Speaker 2: I mean, India was interesting to me, just the everybody

1223
01:17:46,680 --> 01:17:51,599
Speaker 2: was super sweet. But I always wanted to go to

1224
01:17:51,640 --> 01:17:55,120
Speaker 2: India and leave when I got thirsty, you know. But

1225
01:17:55,600 --> 01:17:59,360
Speaker 2: and so's I stayed three days. But the thing is

1226
01:17:59,640 --> 01:18:02,599
Speaker 2: when you stay for a shorter period of time, then

1227
01:18:02,640 --> 01:18:06,080
Speaker 2: you just see, you just notice the thing. Anyone would notice,

1228
01:18:06,160 --> 01:18:08,760
Speaker 2: you know, who was there. It would be like you'd

1229
01:18:08,760 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 2: go to Paris and someone said, what Paris like their

1230
01:18:11,439 --> 01:18:14,960
Speaker 2: dog shit everywhere. It's like, yeah, you know, if you

1231
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:20,559
Speaker 2: stay longer, you get beyond that. But I didn't stay

1232
01:18:20,560 --> 01:18:25,040
Speaker 2: long enough to get beyond that in India. But there

1233
01:18:25,120 --> 01:18:31,680
Speaker 2: was shocking to see just the juxtaposition of wealth and

1234
01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:33,400
Speaker 2: extreme poverty.

1235
01:18:33,760 --> 01:18:35,960
Speaker 1: Where were you in India?

1236
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:37,680
Speaker 2: In Mumbai? No.

1237
01:18:37,840 --> 01:18:41,120
Speaker 1: I was in Mumbai for about a week, and you

1238
01:18:41,160 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 1: saw the extreme poverty. But the other thing was I

1239
01:18:44,439 --> 01:18:49,479
Speaker 1: was just stunned how educated the average person was. You

1240
01:18:49,520 --> 01:18:52,040
Speaker 1: know that we would go for these meetings. These are

1241
01:18:52,040 --> 01:18:54,799
Speaker 1: all people in the entertainment business. They all had graduate degrees.

1242
01:18:55,600 --> 01:18:57,880
Speaker 1: It was just, you know, much more than you would

1243
01:18:57,960 --> 01:19:03,720
Speaker 1: see in the US, as they say, yeah, you don't

1244
01:19:03,760 --> 01:19:06,720
Speaker 1: want to drink the water. The funniest thing though, I

1245
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,400
Speaker 1: was in a hotel. There's two. There's the main hotel

1246
01:19:09,400 --> 01:19:11,320
Speaker 1: where they have the bombing, and they have an outpost

1247
01:19:11,360 --> 01:19:13,679
Speaker 1: on the other end of town, which where I was standing,

1248
01:19:14,000 --> 01:19:16,439
Speaker 1: and I called up an uber and it was an

1249
01:19:16,560 --> 01:19:19,200
Speaker 1: Uber X. It looked like a Fred Flintstone car. Like

1250
01:19:19,400 --> 01:19:22,320
Speaker 1: the guy was using his feet together and there's a

1251
01:19:22,400 --> 01:19:25,439
Speaker 1: gate for security. Whatever. This guy pulls up in this car.

1252
01:19:25,720 --> 01:19:27,759
Speaker 1: They give me a look like they're ready to eject

1253
01:19:27,800 --> 01:19:30,720
Speaker 1: this guy. I didn't realize if you're in Mumbai, you

1254
01:19:30,760 --> 01:19:34,439
Speaker 1: get the best Uber available, which is still like nothing.

1255
01:19:35,720 --> 01:19:38,120
Speaker 1: So you love a good hotel, we're a couple of

1256
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:39,400
Speaker 1: the great hotels you've been to.

1257
01:19:41,720 --> 01:19:46,120
Speaker 2: Oh gosh, well, I just stated this. Four Seasons in

1258
01:19:46,200 --> 01:19:50,120
Speaker 2: Tokyo that was amazing. Usually we stayed in an apartment there,

1259
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:55,000
Speaker 2: but the apartment was available. But this four Seasons had

1260
01:19:55,040 --> 01:19:59,800
Speaker 2: a service where they would take you it was right

1261
01:19:59,840 --> 01:20:05,639
Speaker 2: now to the Tokyo train station, like and they would

1262
01:20:05,800 --> 01:20:08,760
Speaker 2: take you, walk you to Tokyo station and put you

1263
01:20:08,880 --> 01:20:11,800
Speaker 2: on the Narrita Express, which I don't need them to

1264
01:20:11,800 --> 01:20:13,679
Speaker 2: do that. I mean, I've taken it so many times.

1265
01:20:13,840 --> 01:20:17,120
Speaker 2: But if you'd never been to Japan before, it would

1266
01:20:17,160 --> 01:20:19,840
Speaker 2: be really great, you know, because there's you have an

1267
01:20:19,840 --> 01:20:23,479
Speaker 2: assigned seat on the train and assigned car, and if

1268
01:20:23,479 --> 01:20:26,519
Speaker 2: you've never been before, it might be too confusing. I mean,

1269
01:20:27,080 --> 01:20:29,600
Speaker 2: it would be confusing and you wouldn't be able to

1270
01:20:29,680 --> 01:20:35,360
Speaker 2: find your h see. But it's a service they offer

1271
01:20:35,439 --> 01:20:37,519
Speaker 2: that they take you there and put you on the train,

1272
01:20:38,200 --> 01:20:40,080
Speaker 2: And I think what I like too is that you

1273
01:20:40,160 --> 01:20:44,360
Speaker 2: just absolutely do not tip in Japan, you know, so

1274
01:20:44,800 --> 01:20:47,240
Speaker 2: it was kind of nice to have that burden lifted.

1275
01:20:47,520 --> 01:20:50,640
Speaker 2: So you weren't always thinking, oh is that enough? Should I?

1276
01:20:51,000 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 2: You know, should I have given more money? Should I?

1277
01:20:55,600 --> 01:20:58,960
Speaker 2: Like I was in I had just shown Copenhagen and

1278
01:20:59,040 --> 01:21:03,120
Speaker 2: I stayed at the oh gosh, what was the name

1279
01:21:03,160 --> 01:21:08,400
Speaker 2: of it. It was like like everybody was waiting for

1280
01:21:08,640 --> 01:21:12,040
Speaker 2: Deposh Mode was staying there, so there were people outside

1281
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:14,760
Speaker 2: waiting for them to come out, and the next day

1282
01:21:14,800 --> 01:21:19,720
Speaker 2: there was like some big rap star staying there. It

1283
01:21:19,800 --> 01:21:24,200
Speaker 2: was like it was almost like being first class on

1284
01:21:24,240 --> 01:21:29,040
Speaker 2: an international flight, like like business is good enough, you know,

1285
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:31,840
Speaker 2: what I mean, like first class sometimes is like just

1286
01:21:32,479 --> 01:21:34,240
Speaker 2: they didn't want to bother you. See, you wind up

1287
01:21:34,240 --> 01:21:36,719
Speaker 2: having to ask for everything, and if you're a timid person,

1288
01:21:36,840 --> 01:21:39,639
Speaker 2: it just, you know what I mean, you just think, oh,

1289
01:21:39,960 --> 01:21:42,960
Speaker 2: just put me back in business class. And that hotel

1290
01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:49,240
Speaker 2: was like that. Sometimes when it's so you know, so grand,

1291
01:21:49,400 --> 01:21:56,280
Speaker 2: you just feel well, uncomfortable. I suppose would be the word.

1292
01:21:57,520 --> 01:22:06,080
Speaker 2: I love the gosh I used to. I always loved

1293
01:22:06,160 --> 01:22:10,439
Speaker 2: that built Moore in Santa Barbara, and oh yeah, it's

1294
01:22:10,520 --> 01:22:12,719
Speaker 2: right on the beach. But there's some kind of labor

1295
01:22:12,760 --> 01:22:16,720
Speaker 2: dispute or something and it's closed now.

1296
01:22:17,000 --> 01:22:18,720
Speaker 1: There was I haven't kept up with that. I know

1297
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:20,679
Speaker 1: there was a labor dispute.

1298
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:24,920
Speaker 2: But it's just sitting there empty. Now. I've never found

1299
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:28,360
Speaker 2: my hotel in Los Angeles. I mean I go there

1300
01:22:28,400 --> 01:22:31,000
Speaker 2: a lot, and I've stayed in a million places, but

1301
01:22:31,040 --> 01:22:32,480
Speaker 2: I've never found.

1302
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:36,040
Speaker 1: Okay, okay. So if I say you're going someplace, it

1303
01:22:36,080 --> 01:22:40,240
Speaker 1: can go to the Four Seasons, and we know every

1304
01:22:40,280 --> 01:22:45,679
Speaker 1: four Seasons is not physically identical, although they are very similar.

1305
01:22:46,640 --> 01:22:48,679
Speaker 1: Or I could say you can go to the one

1306
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:53,559
Speaker 1: off special hotel rated as well. But you're listening to

1307
01:22:53,600 --> 01:22:55,519
Speaker 1: the travel agent. It's not like you're talking to five

1308
01:22:55,560 --> 01:22:57,840
Speaker 1: people who went there. Which one are you going to choose?

1309
01:23:00,400 --> 01:23:03,679
Speaker 2: Wait, my choices? Are you telling me to go somewhere?

1310
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:06,400
Speaker 1: No, you're going somewhere. You got to choose a hotel.

1311
01:23:06,439 --> 01:23:10,400
Speaker 1: It could be the Four Seasons, my known quantity.

1312
01:23:10,560 --> 01:23:14,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, or a uh. I'm probably gonna go with the

1313
01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:16,880
Speaker 2: Four Seasons. I'm not proud of myself for saying that,

1314
01:23:17,240 --> 01:23:21,080
Speaker 2: but it's all about a pillow to me. You know

1315
01:23:22,200 --> 01:23:25,960
Speaker 2: about a really soft pillow in the Four Seasons. I

1316
01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:28,120
Speaker 2: know what the pillows and sheets are like, and they're

1317
01:23:28,120 --> 01:23:33,040
Speaker 2: really it feels really good to be between those sheets

1318
01:23:33,280 --> 01:23:36,640
Speaker 2: with your head on that pillow. I remember being with

1319
01:23:36,680 --> 01:23:40,400
Speaker 2: my dad one time and we were driving from Illinois

1320
01:23:40,439 --> 01:23:45,200
Speaker 2: to Tennessee and every place he stopped was like, oh,

1321
01:23:45,280 --> 01:23:48,519
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like it was McDonald's and it was

1322
01:23:49,080 --> 01:23:52,280
Speaker 2: everything was a chain, and I said, why are we

1323
01:23:52,400 --> 01:23:55,760
Speaker 2: doing this? And he said, because yeah, I know what

1324
01:23:55,800 --> 01:24:01,000
Speaker 2: you're gonna get. And then I remember because we passed

1325
01:24:01,000 --> 01:24:03,320
Speaker 2: all these great places and he wouldn't stop at any

1326
01:24:03,360 --> 01:24:07,559
Speaker 2: of them. So I hate being that way with you know,

1327
01:24:07,680 --> 01:24:10,120
Speaker 2: to say, oh, I'll stay at the Four Seasons rather

1328
01:24:10,240 --> 01:24:16,840
Speaker 2: than the one off hotel that we like. Do you

1329
01:24:16,840 --> 01:24:18,479
Speaker 2: go to Portland, Oregon? Very often?

1330
01:24:18,920 --> 01:24:20,800
Speaker 1: No? I've been there, but not often.

1331
01:24:21,080 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 2: Okay, because I used to stay at the Heathmen, and

1332
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:27,000
Speaker 2: then someone said, oh, you have to stay at the Nines. Right,

1333
01:24:27,560 --> 01:24:31,160
Speaker 2: that's where the basketball players stay. But the Nines is

1334
01:24:31,960 --> 01:24:34,280
Speaker 2: used to be a department store. So unless you have

1335
01:24:34,439 --> 01:24:36,880
Speaker 2: one of the windows facing the street, you're in an

1336
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:40,160
Speaker 2: interior courtyards. You know, you look out the window and

1337
01:24:40,200 --> 01:24:43,000
Speaker 2: you see the restaurant. You know. I can't stand that

1338
01:24:43,120 --> 01:24:43,639
Speaker 2: kind of a thing.

1339
01:24:43,720 --> 01:24:46,560
Speaker 1: No, No, it's like that big hotel in Nashville.

1340
01:24:46,920 --> 01:24:49,280
Speaker 2: Well, I like the Hermitage in Nashville.

1341
01:24:49,360 --> 01:24:52,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, but Andrew the one convention hotel where everything looks

1342
01:24:52,120 --> 01:24:55,679
Speaker 1: in on a courtyard. It's very very weird. But whatever

1343
01:24:55,720 --> 01:24:55,920
Speaker 1: they do.

1344
01:24:56,640 --> 01:24:59,479
Speaker 2: Well, see, I like the Hermitage. And then they opened

1345
01:24:59,479 --> 01:25:04,479
Speaker 2: a four seat Seasons in Nashville. And then I think, well,

1346
01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 2: I don't want to be disloyal to the Hermitage. And

1347
01:25:10,040 --> 01:25:13,400
Speaker 2: the Hermitage has really nice sheets, you know, so I

1348
01:25:13,439 --> 01:25:18,120
Speaker 2: think that's the situation where I would remain loyal to them. Right.

1349
01:25:19,240 --> 01:25:23,760
Speaker 2: But in Portland, the Heathman then got sold and we

1350
01:25:23,840 --> 01:25:26,439
Speaker 2: just went right down the tubes the Nines. But then

1351
01:25:26,479 --> 01:25:30,080
Speaker 2: they opened a Ritz Carlton, and I can't wait to

1352
01:25:30,120 --> 01:25:33,680
Speaker 2: stay there because I don't feel a need to be

1353
01:25:33,880 --> 01:25:38,880
Speaker 2: loyal to those other places, because they both let me down.

1354
01:25:39,400 --> 01:25:43,519
Speaker 1: I'd hate to be elitist like this. But isn't the

1355
01:25:43,600 --> 01:25:48,400
Speaker 1: four seasons more dependable than the rich Carleton?

1356
01:25:50,360 --> 01:25:53,200
Speaker 2: Yeah? It is right, But I always stay at the

1357
01:25:53,280 --> 01:25:58,120
Speaker 2: Ritz Carlton in Chicago always, and I'm never not interested

1358
01:25:58,160 --> 01:26:00,599
Speaker 2: in trying any other hotel there. I mean I have

1359
01:26:00,760 --> 01:26:04,080
Speaker 2: before I found them. It's Carlton, but I think because

1360
01:26:04,160 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 2: they can keep staff, you know, So I don't know,

1361
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:14,200
Speaker 2: I just really I just like everything about it, and

1362
01:26:14,240 --> 01:26:17,200
Speaker 2: I like the restaurant, and I like the and I

1363
01:26:17,280 --> 01:26:20,640
Speaker 2: know that sounds you know, I know what that sounds like.

1364
01:26:20,800 --> 01:26:24,519
Speaker 2: But I'm never the one paining for my room. If

1365
01:26:24,520 --> 01:26:26,960
Speaker 2: someone else is paying for your room, why don't you

1366
01:26:27,040 --> 01:26:28,160
Speaker 2: get the best room in twn?

1367
01:26:28,439 --> 01:26:29,040
Speaker 1: Exactly?

1368
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:32,960
Speaker 2: And then if I'm going to forty two cities in

1369
01:26:33,040 --> 01:26:36,040
Speaker 2: forty four days, I can do that. I can go

1370
01:26:36,080 --> 01:26:41,240
Speaker 2: to forty two cities in forty four days. But being

1371
01:26:41,439 --> 01:26:44,719
Speaker 2: in a nice hotel just makes it easier.

1372
01:26:45,640 --> 01:26:48,360
Speaker 1: You know, you got to ask for it. Otherwise they'll

1373
01:26:48,360 --> 01:26:51,439
Speaker 1: give you. You learn that over time. It's built in

1374
01:26:51,520 --> 01:26:55,000
Speaker 1: if you ask, and it makes such a difference. It's

1375
01:26:55,040 --> 01:26:55,559
Speaker 1: really cool.

1376
01:26:55,640 --> 01:26:58,120
Speaker 2: One thing I learned a long time ago on a

1377
01:26:58,160 --> 01:27:00,920
Speaker 2: book tour, right, Because sometimes you go on a book

1378
01:27:00,920 --> 01:27:04,479
Speaker 2: tour and the publicist will say the bookstore recommended this hotel.

1379
01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 2: I'm like, no, now, new, new, new.

1380
01:27:06,320 --> 01:27:06,599
Speaker 1: Never.

1381
01:27:07,360 --> 01:27:10,320
Speaker 2: They make it sound like the like, what I need

1382
01:27:10,360 --> 01:27:14,439
Speaker 2: is something within walking distance. I said, no, I don't

1383
01:27:14,479 --> 01:27:18,320
Speaker 2: want walking distance. I want a nice hotel.

1384
01:27:19,040 --> 01:27:21,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, the whole I was in Toronto last week, the

1385
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:23,040
Speaker 1: same thing you wanted. First of all, Toronto is not

1386
01:27:23,080 --> 01:27:27,200
Speaker 1: that big. They put me in a hotel. God, worst

1387
01:27:27,240 --> 01:27:31,880
Speaker 1: hotel I stayedd in years. But uh, if you're in

1388
01:27:31,920 --> 01:27:34,720
Speaker 1: the hotel, will you venture out for food or you

1389
01:27:34,880 --> 01:27:36,320
Speaker 1: a room service kind of guy.

1390
01:27:37,439 --> 01:27:41,479
Speaker 2: I don't like room service because it's your room, but

1391
01:27:41,600 --> 01:27:45,839
Speaker 2: then somebody comes into it, and then it they violated

1392
01:27:45,880 --> 01:27:49,320
Speaker 2: your space, even though and it's crazy to say that

1393
01:27:50,040 --> 01:27:57,160
Speaker 2: because it's not really yours, but it just feels like. So.

1394
01:27:58,120 --> 01:28:00,000
Speaker 2: I usually eat dinner while I signed books.

1395
01:28:01,840 --> 01:28:03,599
Speaker 1: Is that part of your contract? Part of your deal?

1396
01:28:03,640 --> 01:28:04,479
Speaker 1: They serve your dinner?

1397
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:08,080
Speaker 2: Well, otherwise, by the time I get back to the hotel.

1398
01:28:08,360 --> 01:28:10,880
Speaker 2: It's midnight or one, and it's going to take an

1399
01:28:10,920 --> 01:28:14,639
Speaker 2: hour for the food to come. And then when I'm

1400
01:28:14,680 --> 01:28:16,680
Speaker 2: on tour, I just go back to the room and

1401
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:20,960
Speaker 2: go right to bed. So I eat did it while

1402
01:28:21,000 --> 01:28:23,000
Speaker 2: I signed books and they bring me menus and I

1403
01:28:23,120 --> 01:28:26,080
Speaker 2: choose something. I'm not a big you know, I'm not

1404
01:28:26,120 --> 01:28:28,960
Speaker 2: a snob about food, but I can't be anything I

1405
01:28:29,000 --> 01:28:31,120
Speaker 2: eat with my hands because I have just signed books.

1406
01:28:38,040 --> 01:28:41,360
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're legendarily will stay there until the last

1407
01:28:41,400 --> 01:28:45,920
Speaker 1: person is there, and you talk to those people. If

1408
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:50,600
Speaker 1: you're talking for hours a night to the guests, be

1409
01:28:50,680 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 1: I know that you want people to tell you jokes,

1410
01:28:52,360 --> 01:28:54,760
Speaker 1: et cetera. How many times do you have an A

1411
01:28:54,920 --> 01:28:57,160
Speaker 1: level experience talking to all those people?

1412
01:29:00,520 --> 01:29:13,000
Speaker 2: If I'm lucky, I'm lucky twice a week. When I

1413
01:29:13,040 --> 01:29:16,400
Speaker 2: say a level, I mean like they just told me

1414
01:29:16,439 --> 01:29:20,840
Speaker 2: a story and it's like unbelievable. And I don't mean

1415
01:29:20,880 --> 01:29:23,040
Speaker 2: they were saving it up to tell me, right, I

1416
01:29:23,080 --> 01:29:26,120
Speaker 2: mean we got to talking and then I learned something

1417
01:29:26,200 --> 01:29:29,200
Speaker 2: that's like wow, you know that just blows my mind.

1418
01:29:30,040 --> 01:29:31,080
Speaker 1: Tell me a couple of those.

1419
01:29:32,479 --> 01:29:35,760
Speaker 2: A woman she said, oh, you have the same My

1420
01:29:36,479 --> 01:29:39,400
Speaker 2: father was just like yours. She said, he just never

1421
01:29:39,600 --> 01:29:42,080
Speaker 2: liked me. And when she was young, she was sitting

1422
01:29:42,120 --> 01:29:44,840
Speaker 2: on a fence and there was a German shepherd on

1423
01:29:44,880 --> 01:29:46,240
Speaker 2: the other side of it, and it came and it

1424
01:29:46,360 --> 01:29:50,320
Speaker 2: bit her hand and it bit through her hand right, so,

1425
01:29:50,760 --> 01:29:52,599
Speaker 2: and her father said, you know, this is all your

1426
01:29:52,640 --> 01:29:54,880
Speaker 2: fault and took her to the hospital and was yelling

1427
01:29:54,920 --> 01:29:56,920
Speaker 2: at her the whole time. And then he said, you know,

1428
01:29:57,040 --> 01:29:59,760
Speaker 2: I'm going back to that house. And she thought, oh,

1429
01:30:00,040 --> 01:30:02,479
Speaker 2: that's going to go and cause some real trouble. Her

1430
01:30:02,520 --> 01:30:05,160
Speaker 2: father went and bought one of the puppies. It turned

1431
01:30:05,200 --> 01:30:07,759
Speaker 2: out the dog that bit her had puppies. He bought

1432
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:10,000
Speaker 2: one of the puppies and brought it home, so the

1433
01:30:10,040 --> 01:30:16,760
Speaker 2: girl had to raise it. Isn't that isn't that like

1434
01:30:16,880 --> 01:30:22,400
Speaker 2: that's a level story. That's that's really good.

1435
01:30:23,000 --> 01:30:28,360
Speaker 1: Wow? Yeah, okay, do you do this to get the

1436
01:30:28,439 --> 01:30:30,479
Speaker 1: love of your father that you didn't get?

1437
01:30:32,920 --> 01:30:36,920
Speaker 2: Uh? Oh, I don't know. I mean, I think everybody

1438
01:30:37,000 --> 01:30:42,519
Speaker 2: who maybe not everybody, but I mean I think usually

1439
01:30:42,520 --> 01:30:45,519
Speaker 2: people who perform or whatever are trying to fill some hole,

1440
01:30:46,400 --> 01:30:53,519
Speaker 2: you know, and it's maybe it's a different hole for everybody.

1441
01:30:53,560 --> 01:30:53,720
Speaker 1: But.

1442
01:30:56,439 --> 01:30:58,599
Speaker 2: I don't know. When I was young, I just wanted

1443
01:30:58,640 --> 01:31:01,519
Speaker 2: to I wanted to walk into a room and have

1444
01:31:01,640 --> 01:31:07,760
Speaker 2: people say that damn and just I was just going

1445
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:10,280
Speaker 2: to die if that didn't happen, you know, I'm just

1446
01:31:10,320 --> 01:31:13,559
Speaker 2: gonna die if I didn't. Then when I was in school,

1447
01:31:13,640 --> 01:31:16,840
Speaker 2: I part school, I would I would just think, like,

1448
01:31:17,120 --> 01:31:19,439
Speaker 2: give me a sign, Like somebody in this room is

1449
01:31:19,439 --> 01:31:22,320
Speaker 2: going to make it. Just give me a sign, you know,

1450
01:31:22,560 --> 01:31:26,040
Speaker 2: like let me know who it is. And I think,

1451
01:31:26,160 --> 01:31:28,360
Speaker 2: like most people. I remember there was this guy when

1452
01:31:28,400 --> 01:31:31,640
Speaker 2: I lived in Chicago, when he was really he was

1453
01:31:31,680 --> 01:31:35,880
Speaker 2: a boy. He was an alcoholic, you know, go to

1454
01:31:35,960 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 2: a do a reading and then afterwards punch somebody in

1455
01:31:39,080 --> 01:31:43,280
Speaker 2: the face and then be found passed out on the

1456
01:31:43,280 --> 01:31:46,559
Speaker 2: street the next day. And he was super good looking.

1457
01:31:46,720 --> 01:31:49,639
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking, Oh, he's going to be famous,

1458
01:31:49,680 --> 01:31:53,680
Speaker 2: And then I thought, why it's just said he's his

1459
01:31:53,760 --> 01:31:58,719
Speaker 2: writing's not good. He's just good looking and he looks

1460
01:31:58,720 --> 01:32:03,599
Speaker 2: good passed out, you know. So I think we all

1461
01:32:03,680 --> 01:32:07,120
Speaker 2: tend to put our bets on that person. You know,

1462
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:12,280
Speaker 2: we're gonna we're gonna put our money on you know,

1463
01:32:12,479 --> 01:32:15,839
Speaker 2: really super good looking person or a super popular person

1464
01:32:16,160 --> 01:32:20,920
Speaker 2: or but it's not always that person, you know. Uh,

1465
01:32:22,360 --> 01:32:24,720
Speaker 2: And I remember thinking like, well, then it could be me.

1466
01:32:24,920 --> 01:32:26,880
Speaker 2: If it's not always that person, it can be me,

1467
01:32:27,760 --> 01:32:34,200
Speaker 2: you know. And you know it's just a midget celebrity.

1468
01:32:34,400 --> 01:32:37,800
Speaker 2: You know, it's not an everyone in the world knows

1469
01:32:37,800 --> 01:32:42,040
Speaker 2: who I am. But enough I just have enough people

1470
01:32:42,720 --> 01:32:46,879
Speaker 2: know who I am to fill a theater. I'm happy, okay,

1471
01:32:47,080 --> 01:32:49,560
Speaker 2: And again it could be more. You know, I'm a publisher.

1472
01:32:49,600 --> 01:32:51,280
Speaker 2: What we say, we need to take this to the

1473
01:32:51,320 --> 01:32:54,400
Speaker 2: next level, and I would say, no, we don't. Let's

1474
01:32:54,439 --> 01:32:56,840
Speaker 2: say I have a really good audience, and one of

1475
01:32:56,880 --> 01:32:58,960
Speaker 2: the things they like about me is that I've never

1476
01:32:59,040 --> 01:33:03,519
Speaker 2: treated them like they're not good enough, you know, like, oh,

1477
01:33:03,560 --> 01:33:05,960
Speaker 2: you're a good starter, audience, but I can do better

1478
01:33:06,000 --> 01:33:09,240
Speaker 2: than you. I can't do better than them, I really can't.

1479
01:33:09,360 --> 01:33:12,240
Speaker 2: And I don't know that those other people would be

1480
01:33:12,320 --> 01:33:14,200
Speaker 2: loyal the way that these people are.

1481
01:33:15,080 --> 01:33:18,080
Speaker 1: However, the nature of being an artist is you always

1482
01:33:18,160 --> 01:33:22,479
Speaker 1: want your work to reach more people. Now, live is

1483
01:33:22,560 --> 01:33:25,479
Speaker 1: one thing, in book is another. But let's just talk

1484
01:33:25,520 --> 01:33:28,360
Speaker 1: about the book side. Do you have a desire always

1485
01:33:28,400 --> 01:33:30,120
Speaker 1: to reach a larger populace?

1486
01:33:32,720 --> 01:33:38,599
Speaker 2: Uh? Well, I think my books except for the first

1487
01:33:38,640 --> 01:33:43,040
Speaker 2: book and then a book of fiction that I wrote,

1488
01:33:44,960 --> 01:33:47,479
Speaker 2: my first and second book, and a book of fiction

1489
01:33:47,600 --> 01:33:50,200
Speaker 2: I wrote. So ten of my books have been number

1490
01:33:50,200 --> 01:33:52,479
Speaker 2: one on the New York Times bestseller list, right, so

1491
01:33:54,000 --> 01:34:00,320
Speaker 2: that doesn't you know, me doesn't get better than that. Now,

1492
01:34:00,320 --> 01:34:08,960
Speaker 2: if a book didn't reach number one, I'd be pretty meserable. Now,

1493
01:34:09,040 --> 01:34:12,479
Speaker 2: I figure when I talk about a bigger audience, I

1494
01:34:12,560 --> 01:34:18,960
Speaker 2: mean it's hard because well, there's an audience that pays

1495
01:34:19,000 --> 01:34:21,200
Speaker 2: for stuff, and then there's an audience, do you know

1496
01:34:21,240 --> 01:34:28,760
Speaker 2: what I mean? And now paying for something's a choice, right,

1497
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:35,920
Speaker 2: you feel benevolent if you paid for something, Right, you're

1498
01:34:36,000 --> 01:34:39,000
Speaker 2: the big man because you paid two dollars for a

1499
01:34:39,080 --> 01:34:43,479
Speaker 2: song instead of just getting it for free. Right. And

1500
01:34:43,520 --> 01:34:47,400
Speaker 2: it's easy to get my books for free. And now

1501
01:34:47,400 --> 01:34:50,280
Speaker 2: there's some kind of a national library where you can

1502
01:34:50,320 --> 01:34:53,799
Speaker 2: get the audio books for free, you know. So really

1503
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:58,559
Speaker 2: the only so if you look at book sales, right,

1504
01:34:58,720 --> 01:35:01,720
Speaker 2: those are down, but they're not down, I don't know

1505
01:35:01,920 --> 01:35:04,639
Speaker 2: because fewer people are reading my books. It's just fewer

1506
01:35:04,640 --> 01:35:11,360
Speaker 2: people are paying for my books, right, Yeah, And that's

1507
01:35:11,479 --> 01:35:14,120
Speaker 2: like that, It's like that for everybody now.

1508
01:35:14,960 --> 01:35:20,000
Speaker 1: And where do you stand on the digital versus print divide.

1509
01:35:20,439 --> 01:35:24,639
Speaker 2: Uh, I don't I understand that a lot of people.

1510
01:35:24,920 --> 01:35:27,439
Speaker 2: I'd like, I'm not a person who needs to hold

1511
01:35:27,479 --> 01:35:32,400
Speaker 2: onto books, you know, So I get books. I buy

1512
01:35:32,439 --> 01:35:36,120
Speaker 2: digital books, you know, every now and then. I mean,

1513
01:35:36,160 --> 01:35:39,840
Speaker 2: if a friend has a book out, I buy the audiobook,

1514
01:35:40,200 --> 01:35:43,800
Speaker 2: I buy the physical book, and usually I buy the

1515
01:35:43,840 --> 01:35:46,080
Speaker 2: digital book as well, because if I want to quote,

1516
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:48,880
Speaker 2: you know, quote long passages, that's easy to do with

1517
01:35:48,960 --> 01:35:51,560
Speaker 2: that with the digital book, and then email little passages

1518
01:35:51,560 --> 01:35:55,960
Speaker 2: to yourself. I mean, I'll go all out, you know,

1519
01:35:56,080 --> 01:36:00,439
Speaker 2: if it's uh God, I want that person to have sales.

1520
01:36:00,479 --> 01:36:04,799
Speaker 2: I want those sales to register. I want I want

1521
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:07,719
Speaker 2: success for that person.

1522
01:36:09,000 --> 01:36:15,480
Speaker 1: You're a very competitive person, though you have a unique act.

1523
01:36:15,840 --> 01:36:19,360
Speaker 1: Who is in your league? I know you're suey generous,

1524
01:36:19,479 --> 01:36:22,640
Speaker 1: but when you think about people who read live, do

1525
01:36:22,680 --> 01:36:26,080
Speaker 1: you say I'm the bests or anybody else to say, well,

1526
01:36:26,080 --> 01:36:27,240
Speaker 1: that person's competition.

1527
01:36:29,000 --> 01:36:32,800
Speaker 2: I don't know who else does it really well? Neil

1528
01:36:32,960 --> 01:36:35,599
Speaker 2: Neil Gaiman, I think. I mean, I have a lecture agent,

1529
01:36:35,720 --> 01:36:40,160
Speaker 2: and he has other clients, you know, but I don't

1530
01:36:40,160 --> 01:36:43,040
Speaker 2: think they work. They don't work like I do. They

1531
01:36:43,080 --> 01:36:46,880
Speaker 2: don't go to one hundred cities a year. Now, sometimes

1532
01:36:48,520 --> 01:36:50,479
Speaker 2: they don't go to one hundred cities a year because

1533
01:36:52,000 --> 01:36:54,400
Speaker 2: you know, Zadi Smith could go to one hundred cities

1534
01:36:54,439 --> 01:36:56,920
Speaker 2: a year, but she doesn't want to. She's got a family,

1535
01:36:57,160 --> 01:37:01,120
Speaker 2: she doesn't want to leave them. She doesn'tay it. You know,

1536
01:37:03,080 --> 01:37:04,800
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people who don't do it

1537
01:37:04,880 --> 01:37:11,640
Speaker 2: because they don't enjoy it. I enjoy it, and uh

1538
01:37:12,479 --> 01:37:16,360
Speaker 2: one Garrison Keeler. He I mean he would have his show,

1539
01:37:16,479 --> 01:37:20,040
Speaker 2: but also he would go out and just read and

1540
01:37:20,640 --> 01:37:24,040
Speaker 2: recite things from you know, recite poetry and read things

1541
01:37:24,040 --> 01:37:31,759
Speaker 2: from books. But I don't really know who else does it? Really?

1542
01:37:31,840 --> 01:37:36,240
Speaker 2: I mean, who goes on a reading tour?

1543
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:40,320
Speaker 1: I don't. There is nobody else. And you have to

1544
01:37:40,320 --> 01:37:44,000
Speaker 1: be credited for building this unique business, both the business

1545
01:37:44,040 --> 01:37:46,760
Speaker 1: itself and the art upon which it's based. But what

1546
01:37:46,880 --> 01:37:50,960
Speaker 1: we've established here is there's a gamification in your life

1547
01:37:51,320 --> 01:37:54,640
Speaker 1: and there's a ladder. Now, maybe the fact that this

1548
01:37:54,840 --> 01:37:58,640
Speaker 1: is separate works in you say, I'm unique if you

1549
01:37:58,680 --> 01:38:00,800
Speaker 1: want what I'm delivered and you can only get it

1550
01:38:00,840 --> 01:38:05,280
Speaker 1: from me, and I have a status, But it's always

1551
01:38:06,280 --> 01:38:11,000
Speaker 1: in the overall sphere. I mean, you've established with duo

1552
01:38:11,160 --> 01:38:13,880
Speaker 1: lingo and all these other things. Where you are on

1553
01:38:13,960 --> 01:38:15,960
Speaker 1: the ladder, where you are in the landscape is very

1554
01:38:15,960 --> 01:38:16,680
Speaker 1: important to you.

1555
01:38:19,360 --> 01:38:23,040
Speaker 2: I guess it is. I mean, I don't feel competitive

1556
01:38:23,640 --> 01:38:29,479
Speaker 2: with other writers. I don't feel competitive, like, no, I don't.

1557
01:38:29,560 --> 01:38:36,880
Speaker 2: I feel like I celebrate them because I think my

1558
01:38:36,960 --> 01:38:43,400
Speaker 2: boyfriend Hugh, his French is perfect. Right, So if someone

1559
01:38:43,680 --> 01:38:47,320
Speaker 2: speaks lousy French, Hugh says, no, their French is good,

1560
01:38:47,920 --> 01:38:52,519
Speaker 2: because he's confident enough to feel that about people, you know.

1561
01:38:53,280 --> 01:39:03,000
Speaker 2: So I don't feel I don't feel what's the word,

1562
01:39:03,120 --> 01:39:09,400
Speaker 2: uncomfident about what I have. I don't feel like it's threatened.

1563
01:39:09,520 --> 01:39:12,960
Speaker 2: I don't feel like I mean, I feel like I'm

1564
01:39:12,960 --> 01:39:14,920
Speaker 2: in a pretty good place with it. And so that

1565
01:39:15,080 --> 01:39:27,040
Speaker 2: allows me, I think, to feel generous towards my fellow writers.

1566
01:39:27,800 --> 01:39:35,120
Speaker 2: I I don't feel like I I don't know. I know,

1567
01:39:35,240 --> 01:39:41,479
Speaker 2: I don't feel competitive, I guess because what we're doing

1568
01:39:41,600 --> 01:39:46,280
Speaker 2: is so different. And then also it's not like if

1569
01:39:46,360 --> 01:39:48,920
Speaker 2: you look at the best seller list, it's like a

1570
01:39:48,920 --> 01:39:52,280
Speaker 2: little lot of really shitty books on the bestself, you

1571
01:39:52,320 --> 01:39:54,240
Speaker 2: know what I mean. So it doesn't mean that my

1572
01:39:54,320 --> 01:39:58,479
Speaker 2: book is good, right if it's number one, And if

1573
01:39:58,479 --> 01:40:01,360
Speaker 2: I look at what's around me, like that's really you

1574
01:40:01,400 --> 01:40:03,760
Speaker 2: know what I mean, Like Tucker Carlson's number two. So

1575
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:11,360
Speaker 2: it's not like it's rewarding, wonderful writing. So it doesn't

1576
01:40:12,840 --> 01:40:17,800
Speaker 2: It's just a sales that's just about sales. I'm not.

1577
01:40:21,439 --> 01:40:27,160
Speaker 3: I but does it make sense because I said Sam,

1578
01:40:28,320 --> 01:40:31,960
Speaker 3: I mean I'm I mean, I'm driven.

1579
01:40:36,040 --> 01:40:39,840
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's the same as competitive.

1580
01:40:41,640 --> 01:40:45,360
Speaker 1: Well, you're definitely driven. I mean, I don't need to

1581
01:40:45,360 --> 01:40:48,960
Speaker 1: psychoanalyze you. I'm not a professional anyway, but you do

1582
01:40:49,200 --> 01:40:52,479
Speaker 1: have the situation with dual lingo for let's go back

1583
01:40:52,520 --> 01:40:56,080
Speaker 1: the other way. People who are don't have your level

1584
01:40:56,120 --> 01:41:01,000
Speaker 1: of success have no idea how hard it is to

1585
01:41:01,000 --> 01:41:04,879
Speaker 1: be that successful. They have no idea of the drive,

1586
01:41:05,520 --> 01:41:10,160
Speaker 1: They have no idea of the constant focus and what

1587
01:41:10,200 --> 01:41:15,360
Speaker 1: the sacrifices are. So the people who reach an iconic level,

1588
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:20,960
Speaker 1: which you have, okay, there is something inside them that

1589
01:41:21,080 --> 01:41:24,719
Speaker 1: made them iconic. They may be talented enough to be iconic,

1590
01:41:25,160 --> 01:41:28,640
Speaker 1: but there was something inside as you say, you mean

1591
01:41:28,920 --> 01:41:31,320
Speaker 1: you said it. He let somebody talk long enough. You

1592
01:41:31,400 --> 01:41:33,599
Speaker 1: wanted to be the person to say, oh that's little

1593
01:41:33,680 --> 01:41:36,559
Speaker 1: David over here, Yeah, we'd come. He play he's the guy.

1594
01:41:37,600 --> 01:41:41,759
Speaker 1: And if you didn't have that, I think, as you said,

1595
01:41:41,880 --> 01:41:44,120
Speaker 1: you said, if your book wasn't number one, you'd be

1596
01:41:44,160 --> 01:41:48,559
Speaker 1: greatly disappointed. Where someone could call you up and say, oh, well,

1597
01:41:48,640 --> 01:41:51,519
Speaker 1: this week, this politician put out a book. They only

1598
01:41:51,520 --> 01:41:53,920
Speaker 1: sold ten thousand, and they gave away a certain number

1599
01:41:53,960 --> 01:41:57,680
Speaker 1: for free. You would say, no, it has to be

1600
01:41:57,840 --> 01:42:00,960
Speaker 1: number one, not because of any honey, I'm gonna make

1601
01:42:01,040 --> 01:42:02,920
Speaker 1: no one's going to give me an award or whatever.

1602
01:42:03,240 --> 01:42:06,880
Speaker 1: It's an internal thing, and I would think if it

1603
01:42:07,000 --> 01:42:10,400
Speaker 1: wasn't number one, as you said, you go into a tailspin.

1604
01:42:10,479 --> 01:42:12,719
Speaker 1: I don't know how long that tailspin lasts two days,

1605
01:42:12,720 --> 01:42:15,680
Speaker 1: two months, whatever, and you're going to say, fuck this,

1606
01:42:15,960 --> 01:42:17,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to show him next time.

1607
01:42:18,720 --> 01:42:23,400
Speaker 2: Well, because everybody's waiting, you know, nothing lasts forever, you know,

1608
01:42:23,640 --> 01:42:26,280
Speaker 2: so I'm always waiting to get to the theater and they'll

1609
01:42:26,360 --> 01:42:28,720
Speaker 2: be like, oh, we had to cancel the show. You know,

1610
01:42:29,320 --> 01:42:33,160
Speaker 2: well the only twenty tickets sold. I mean, it's going

1611
01:42:33,240 --> 01:42:38,280
Speaker 2: to happen, and I'm just always waiting for it, right,

1612
01:42:38,840 --> 01:42:42,080
Speaker 2: But I don't want it to be my fault. I mean,

1613
01:42:42,240 --> 01:42:44,680
Speaker 2: it could be my fault because people are tired of me.

1614
01:42:44,800 --> 01:42:46,439
Speaker 2: But I don't want it to be my fault because

1615
01:42:46,439 --> 01:42:48,240
Speaker 2: it was lazy, you know what I mean, I don't

1616
01:42:48,240 --> 01:42:50,000
Speaker 2: want it to be my fault movement. I got out

1617
01:42:50,040 --> 01:42:53,519
Speaker 2: there and thought, like, I'll just read something old or

1618
01:42:54,240 --> 01:42:58,959
Speaker 2: it doesn't matter, you know, it's just it's just a kipsie.

1619
01:42:59,200 --> 01:43:02,920
Speaker 2: It doesn't really mean any difference. I don't ever, I

1620
01:43:02,960 --> 01:43:07,240
Speaker 2: don't ever, I don't know. I read an interview with

1621
01:43:07,320 --> 01:43:11,439
Speaker 2: Tony Bennett or it was a Terry Gross interviewed Tony Bennett, right,

1622
01:43:11,720 --> 01:43:16,240
Speaker 2: and it was so beautiful to hear him talk about

1623
01:43:16,240 --> 01:43:25,560
Speaker 2: his audience and just talk about uh, just the gratitude

1624
01:43:25,600 --> 01:43:27,559
Speaker 2: and respect that he had. You know, it was a

1625
01:43:27,760 --> 01:43:31,640
Speaker 2: really I'm going to say that's old fashioned thing, but

1626
01:43:31,720 --> 01:43:35,040
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't think it is. I mean, I

1627
01:43:35,080 --> 01:43:37,519
Speaker 2: know that there are acts who will get up there

1628
01:43:37,560 --> 01:43:40,240
Speaker 2: and just if they're contracted for forty minutes, they will

1629
01:43:40,320 --> 01:43:42,760
Speaker 2: only do forty minutes and not one second later. And

1630
01:43:42,800 --> 01:43:44,439
Speaker 2: I know there are people who show up at the

1631
01:43:44,439 --> 01:43:48,679
Speaker 2: theater and you know, they watch basketball games in the hotel,

1632
01:43:48,880 --> 01:43:52,080
Speaker 2: you know, in the backstage while the audience waits an hour,

1633
01:43:52,280 --> 01:43:58,599
Speaker 2: two hours, you know, but you know, I'm sure Bonnie

1634
01:43:58,680 --> 01:44:03,200
Speaker 2: Rait gives everything she's got to be. I mean, there's

1635
01:44:03,360 --> 01:44:06,200
Speaker 2: plenty of plenty of people out there who.

1636
01:44:06,200 --> 01:44:08,760
Speaker 1: Just well, let's go the other extreme, because you're talking

1637
01:44:08,800 --> 01:44:12,280
Speaker 1: about the person, the person who's phoning it in. Then

1638
01:44:12,360 --> 01:44:15,280
Speaker 1: we have people like Bruce Springsteen. When I say about

1639
01:44:15,320 --> 01:44:17,960
Speaker 1: Bruce Springsteen, I have no problem with Bruce Springsteen, I

1640
01:44:18,000 --> 01:44:22,600
Speaker 1: just hate his audience. These people become prisoners of the audience,

1641
01:44:23,600 --> 01:44:25,479
Speaker 1: like he split up from the Eastreet Band. This is

1642
01:44:25,520 --> 01:44:29,720
Speaker 1: thirty years ago now, and everybody got all this negative blowback.

1643
01:44:30,080 --> 01:44:33,240
Speaker 1: If Bruce Springsteen were to come out and play for

1644
01:44:33,280 --> 01:44:35,559
Speaker 1: an hour and a half, people would go say, well,

1645
01:44:35,600 --> 01:44:37,720
Speaker 1: you know, you're letting us down. He was charging one

1646
01:44:37,800 --> 01:44:41,080
Speaker 1: hundred dollars and people said that was too much, So

1647
01:44:41,439 --> 01:44:44,920
Speaker 1: you can ultimately, you know, this is an interesting thing.

1648
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:50,080
Speaker 1: This is we're talking about musicians. Neil Young has survived

1649
01:44:50,240 --> 01:44:53,280
Speaker 1: by constantly decimating his audience, saying I'm not going to

1650
01:44:53,360 --> 01:44:58,080
Speaker 1: give you what you're looking for. Okay. You know you're

1651
01:44:58,280 --> 01:45:03,280
Speaker 1: different in terms of writing because most writers don't have

1652
01:45:03,360 --> 01:45:06,719
Speaker 1: this profile. Zadie Smith has a new book, but White

1653
01:45:06,720 --> 01:45:12,639
Speaker 1: Teeth was the first book huge footprint in America. Now.

1654
01:45:12,800 --> 01:45:16,080
Speaker 1: Zadie Smith is from the UK, but in America your

1655
01:45:16,240 --> 01:45:20,000
Speaker 1: level of reach is probably three or four times that

1656
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:24,880
Speaker 1: of Zadie Smith. It's a whole completely different league. As

1657
01:45:24,920 --> 01:45:28,360
Speaker 1: I say, you are an entertainer in addition to being

1658
01:45:28,400 --> 01:45:32,120
Speaker 1: a writer, and that makes all the You know, this

1659
01:45:32,200 --> 01:45:35,679
Speaker 1: is the opposite of what's his name, Pinchon. You don't

1660
01:45:35,720 --> 01:45:38,200
Speaker 1: know where he lives and he's just ekeing out a book.

1661
01:45:38,439 --> 01:45:42,599
Speaker 1: You are very accessible. You are working it even though

1662
01:45:42,640 --> 01:45:46,400
Speaker 1: you're not singing songs. You're doing something traditional that many

1663
01:45:46,439 --> 01:45:50,840
Speaker 1: people do live, which makes it both fascinating and I'm

1664
01:45:50,880 --> 01:45:54,599
Speaker 1: sure you feeling you're walking that tightrope. You can't say, well,

1665
01:45:54,640 --> 01:45:57,439
Speaker 1: this person does it. Their audience is steady. That person

1666
01:45:57,479 --> 01:46:00,040
Speaker 1: ever started. Oh, in Cleveland, business is pretty good. But

1667
01:46:00,240 --> 01:46:03,519
Speaker 1: every time you go out, it's just you. The nature

1668
01:46:03,520 --> 01:46:07,360
Speaker 1: of writing is private. But let me just put it

1669
01:46:07,439 --> 01:46:10,439
Speaker 1: another way, and you mentioned it going to Germany next week.

1670
01:46:10,520 --> 01:46:15,120
Speaker 1: To what degree is the audience in your mind when

1671
01:46:15,200 --> 01:46:15,799
Speaker 1: you write?

1672
01:46:17,960 --> 01:46:23,479
Speaker 2: Uh? Very much. I mean I'm thinking, I'm thinking when

1673
01:46:23,520 --> 01:46:26,960
Speaker 2: I'm writing something, I think, oh, that's been a long contince.

1674
01:46:27,000 --> 01:46:29,040
Speaker 2: I've had any dialogue that's going to be boring to

1675
01:46:29,080 --> 01:46:33,519
Speaker 2: an audience, you know, or gosh, that's a lot of

1676
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:36,759
Speaker 2: information right there. I should break that up into smaller

1677
01:46:36,800 --> 01:46:39,120
Speaker 2: portions because that's going to be boring to an audience.

1678
01:46:39,800 --> 01:46:42,000
Speaker 2: Or oh, I could do this is my voice when

1679
01:46:42,000 --> 01:46:44,760
Speaker 2: I read this out loud? Or that'll be fun. It

1680
01:46:44,760 --> 01:46:46,599
Speaker 2: would be more fun to do it, then I should.

1681
01:46:46,640 --> 01:46:49,760
Speaker 2: What if I whispered that? So I think about it

1682
01:46:50,040 --> 01:46:53,120
Speaker 2: a lot. I'm going to think about the performative aspect

1683
01:46:53,160 --> 01:46:53,360
Speaker 2: of it.

1684
01:46:53,960 --> 01:46:56,479
Speaker 1: Well what about the reverse? You say, this is what

1685
01:46:56,520 --> 01:46:58,000
Speaker 1: I want to do, but I know I'm going to

1686
01:46:58,080 --> 01:47:01,280
Speaker 1: lose the audience a little bit, orclosing the audience.

1687
01:47:02,840 --> 01:47:07,160
Speaker 2: Uh, well, you know, just thinking about that because I

1688
01:47:07,200 --> 01:47:10,840
Speaker 2: was writing something about my friend Dawn, one of my

1689
01:47:10,880 --> 01:47:11,639
Speaker 2: oldest friends.

1690
01:47:12,479 --> 01:47:13,960
Speaker 1: Does she live in Montrose?

1691
01:47:15,320 --> 01:47:17,640
Speaker 2: No, No, she came with She comes with me on

1692
01:47:17,680 --> 01:47:23,840
Speaker 2: tour sometimes. Okay, we both hate dogs. Nothing will it

1693
01:47:23,840 --> 01:47:29,280
Speaker 2: cause you to lose an audience more? I'm you hate dogs?

1694
01:47:30,160 --> 01:47:33,320
Speaker 2: People you just feel them leaving you, you know what

1695
01:47:33,360 --> 01:47:37,040
Speaker 2: I mean? Like you could say you hate children, not

1696
01:47:37,200 --> 01:47:41,360
Speaker 2: a problem, right. Uh, you say you hate Catholics, they'll

1697
01:47:41,560 --> 01:47:44,160
Speaker 2: find a way to forgive you. But if you hate dogs,

1698
01:47:44,479 --> 01:47:48,080
Speaker 2: oh my goodness. So just thinking about putting that in

1699
01:47:48,080 --> 01:47:52,519
Speaker 2: this essay, that I'm writing that done dogs, and I

1700
01:47:52,640 --> 01:47:57,439
Speaker 2: thought I just thought about it, you know, because really

1701
01:47:57,560 --> 01:48:01,240
Speaker 2: people get so upset when you don't like dogs, so.

1702
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:02,679
Speaker 1: You got to put it in or leave it out.

1703
01:48:04,479 --> 01:48:12,080
Speaker 2: Ah, I don't know, I don't know. I think I

1704
01:48:12,160 --> 01:48:15,200
Speaker 2: mean Don really, Don hates dogs so much that she

1705
01:48:17,000 --> 01:48:19,719
Speaker 2: will like cross the street if she sees one coming.

1706
01:48:20,000 --> 01:48:22,799
Speaker 2: Like she's very She's the kind of person who doesn't

1707
01:48:22,800 --> 01:48:26,479
Speaker 2: like cigarette smoke but goes like this. You know, it's

1708
01:48:26,640 --> 01:48:29,240
Speaker 2: kind of overkill, right, you know, you can just sort

1709
01:48:29,240 --> 01:48:32,599
Speaker 2: of quietly hate a dog. You know, you don't need

1710
01:48:32,640 --> 01:48:35,280
Speaker 2: to make a big show about it. And I've often

1711
01:48:35,360 --> 01:48:38,040
Speaker 2: pointed that out to her. But I would love to

1712
01:48:38,040 --> 01:48:40,599
Speaker 2: get on an airplane and not have a full sized

1713
01:48:40,640 --> 01:48:43,080
Speaker 2: dog sitting next to me on the airplane. I'd love that.

1714
01:48:44,240 --> 01:48:47,120
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, but you know, what you're act is such

1715
01:48:47,160 --> 01:48:50,360
Speaker 1: that you're breaking taboos all along. But you're just saying

1716
01:48:50,439 --> 01:48:52,160
Speaker 1: dogs is the third rail?

1717
01:48:52,720 --> 01:48:53,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is.

1718
01:48:57,200 --> 01:49:01,479
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about woke it politically incorrect. You tell

1719
01:49:01,720 --> 01:49:06,200
Speaker 1: phenomenal jokes. The joke you said about you know, the

1720
01:49:06,240 --> 01:49:09,280
Speaker 1: size of a woman's vagina whatever, I've told that a

1721
01:49:09,360 --> 01:49:14,599
Speaker 1: million times, That the one about the railroad. I've heard

1722
01:49:14,680 --> 01:49:18,360
Speaker 1: that a friend of mine tells that whatever. But by

1723
01:49:18,479 --> 01:49:23,160
Speaker 1: traditional standards, many people would say these are off color,

1724
01:49:23,200 --> 01:49:28,120
Speaker 1: politically incorrect. How come you get away with it when

1725
01:49:28,160 --> 01:49:28,880
Speaker 1: no one else can?

1726
01:49:31,080 --> 01:49:32,920
Speaker 2: Well, I don't know, I mean, but those jokes are

1727
01:49:32,960 --> 01:49:37,479
Speaker 2: nothing to me, I mean are not. I don't you know.

1728
01:49:38,400 --> 01:49:40,920
Speaker 2: Someone told me that I didn't write them. I'm just

1729
01:49:41,000 --> 01:49:44,240
Speaker 2: repeating them. But I can see how that doesn't make

1730
01:49:44,240 --> 01:49:49,680
Speaker 2: any difference if you're in front of an audience. But gosh,

1731
01:49:49,840 --> 01:49:51,719
Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean, I know there are jokes

1732
01:49:51,760 --> 01:49:53,880
Speaker 2: I wouldn't tell on stage. You know that are just

1733
01:49:54,080 --> 01:49:57,320
Speaker 2: racist jokes. I mean, that's the whole point out them,

1734
01:49:57,439 --> 01:50:01,360
Speaker 2: is that they're racist jokes. That's not going to work

1735
01:50:01,400 --> 01:50:04,960
Speaker 2: in front of an audience now. But I wouldn't have

1736
01:50:05,000 --> 01:50:07,599
Speaker 2: read those on stage ten years ago either. I mean,

1737
01:50:07,640 --> 01:50:13,439
Speaker 2: I might read them at a dinner party. But well, like,

1738
01:50:13,520 --> 01:50:15,400
Speaker 2: there was a joke that somebody told me that I

1739
01:50:15,439 --> 01:50:19,439
Speaker 2: repeated on stage. And a woman calls her husband very

1740
01:50:19,520 --> 01:50:22,320
Speaker 2: upset because their son has just had sex with this

1741
01:50:22,479 --> 01:50:28,599
Speaker 2: teacher and been expelled from school, and she's devastated. But

1742
01:50:28,640 --> 01:50:31,120
Speaker 2: the father goes and buys his son a brand new

1743
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:34,400
Speaker 2: bicycle and presents it to him and says, I just

1744
01:50:34,439 --> 01:50:36,040
Speaker 2: want you to know I'm kind of proud of you.

1745
01:50:36,360 --> 01:50:40,040
Speaker 2: And the kid looks at the bike and says, maybe

1746
01:50:40,120 --> 01:50:47,160
Speaker 2: i'll ride it later after my ass stops hurting, And

1747
01:50:47,240 --> 01:50:48,600
Speaker 2: then the audience.

1748
01:50:50,720 --> 01:50:52,080
Speaker 1: That's fantastic.

1749
01:50:52,920 --> 01:50:55,880
Speaker 2: The audience usually groans, and I'm like, why didn't you

1750
01:50:56,000 --> 01:50:58,439
Speaker 2: groan when you heard the kid had sex with this teacher?

1751
01:50:58,680 --> 01:51:00,720
Speaker 2: Why do you only groan when you find out if

1752
01:51:00,720 --> 01:51:03,960
Speaker 2: it's a male teacher. I love that kind of a

1753
01:51:04,040 --> 01:51:09,559
Speaker 2: joke because because it's true. Why do you grown? Why

1754
01:51:09,560 --> 01:51:11,479
Speaker 2: do you only grow when you learn it was a

1755
01:51:11,520 --> 01:51:14,240
Speaker 2: man you know? Well?

1756
01:51:14,240 --> 01:51:17,960
Speaker 1: But just to stay on the theme, if a straight

1757
01:51:18,120 --> 01:51:22,360
Speaker 1: guy told some of these jokes, I think that there

1758
01:51:22,400 --> 01:51:25,720
Speaker 1: would be noise. I think there would be blowback. Really, oh,

1759
01:51:26,040 --> 01:51:29,160
Speaker 1: I thought about this a lot. Absolutely, you're saying I'm

1760
01:51:29,240 --> 01:51:32,800
Speaker 1: the other, therefore I can get away with it. This

1761
01:51:32,840 --> 01:51:35,800
Speaker 1: is part of my persona I don't even know.

1762
01:51:35,960 --> 01:51:37,000
Speaker 2: I don't know.

1763
01:51:37,520 --> 01:51:45,439
Speaker 1: Definitely, definitely. The only problem is your lack of you

1764
01:51:45,560 --> 01:51:48,519
Speaker 1: was so far not hit a major third rail. Not

1765
01:51:48,640 --> 01:51:53,240
Speaker 1: that that's your general act, but the fact that you

1766
01:51:53,320 --> 01:51:55,719
Speaker 1: don't seem to under you don't see that some straight

1767
01:51:55,800 --> 01:51:58,880
Speaker 1: Guys by Dad problems makes you wonder whether you whether

1768
01:51:58,920 --> 01:52:04,040
Speaker 1: there's some third rail lurking out there. But okay, if

1769
01:52:04,080 --> 01:52:06,280
Speaker 1: you say you sold the story to the New Yorker,

1770
01:52:06,880 --> 01:52:09,599
Speaker 1: you know, and that's going to be printed, to what

1771
01:52:09,720 --> 01:52:14,040
Speaker 1: degree do you start getting anxious feeling knowing the stories

1772
01:52:14,080 --> 01:52:16,840
Speaker 1: come out then it does come out. How much feedback

1773
01:52:16,880 --> 01:52:19,800
Speaker 1: do you get in your inbox or in the phone

1774
01:52:19,840 --> 01:52:20,439
Speaker 1: call whatever?

1775
01:52:21,400 --> 01:52:27,840
Speaker 2: Not much? Not so much. I mean maybe a couple

1776
01:52:27,840 --> 01:52:30,040
Speaker 2: of friends will say, oh, I saw your essay in

1777
01:52:30,080 --> 01:52:33,240
Speaker 2: the New Yorker, But I mean I don't I'm not

1778
01:52:33,360 --> 01:52:36,640
Speaker 2: on social media. I don't know what goes on.

1779
01:52:38,240 --> 01:52:42,120
Speaker 1: Well, I'm talking more. Okay, you write an essay, let's

1780
01:52:42,160 --> 01:52:43,960
Speaker 1: just use for the sake of discussion. It's not going

1781
01:52:44,000 --> 01:52:46,280
Speaker 1: to be well, how long is usually the lag time?

1782
01:52:48,080 --> 01:52:49,720
Speaker 2: What do you mean the time between you and.

1783
01:52:49,840 --> 01:52:51,920
Speaker 1: You finished something and it hits print.

1784
01:52:53,439 --> 01:52:56,440
Speaker 2: Oh well, gosh, my agent gave this to the magazine

1785
01:52:56,560 --> 01:52:59,320
Speaker 2: like three weeks ago, and then we just heard a

1786
01:52:59,360 --> 01:53:01,360
Speaker 2: couple of days ago they're taking it. And so I've

1787
01:53:01,400 --> 01:53:05,280
Speaker 2: done the first rewrite, and then you know, the fact

1788
01:53:05,400 --> 01:53:09,080
Speaker 2: checkers will call. So today I wrote to the Shepherd

1789
01:53:09,240 --> 01:53:12,559
Speaker 2: and just sent him the essay and said, did I

1790
01:53:12,560 --> 01:53:16,679
Speaker 2: get anything wrong here? You know? And are you okay

1791
01:53:16,720 --> 01:53:19,000
Speaker 2: with the fact checker calling you from the New Yorker?

1792
01:53:19,720 --> 01:53:24,200
Speaker 1: So when it's going to be published, do you get spilkissed?

1793
01:53:24,200 --> 01:53:26,280
Speaker 1: Do you get up tight now that it's going to

1794
01:53:26,320 --> 01:53:27,800
Speaker 1: hit the world at large?

1795
01:53:28,479 --> 01:53:33,439
Speaker 2: No? I mean no, I'm excited. I mean I think

1796
01:53:33,439 --> 01:53:34,439
Speaker 2: it's a pretty good essay.

1797
01:53:36,280 --> 01:53:38,360
Speaker 1: I guess, you know, when I write something and then

1798
01:53:38,400 --> 01:53:41,920
Speaker 1: people could read it, there's an emotional process and then

1799
01:53:41,960 --> 01:53:44,640
Speaker 1: a cool down. But each to his own. Let me

1800
01:53:44,640 --> 01:53:47,519
Speaker 1: ask you another, just one final question here? What do

1801
01:53:47,560 --> 01:53:48,960
Speaker 1: you do with all the money.

1802
01:53:50,320 --> 01:53:50,960
Speaker 2: I buy a house?

1803
01:53:53,280 --> 01:53:55,320
Speaker 1: If I were to ask you, and I'm not going

1804
01:53:55,360 --> 01:53:58,360
Speaker 1: to ask you how much money you have, would you

1805
01:53:58,439 --> 01:54:00,200
Speaker 1: have any idea?

1806
01:54:00,920 --> 01:54:02,040
Speaker 2: I don't really know much.

1807
01:54:03,680 --> 01:54:07,120
Speaker 1: Do you ever say I would like to buy something,

1808
01:54:07,200 --> 01:54:08,760
Speaker 1: but maybe I can't afford it.

1809
01:54:10,360 --> 01:54:13,200
Speaker 2: Well, like we were just talking about there's a house

1810
01:54:13,280 --> 01:54:15,639
Speaker 2: near us that came up for sale, and we were

1811
01:54:15,680 --> 01:54:18,559
Speaker 2: talking about, we'd like to buy it for this young

1812
01:54:18,600 --> 01:54:22,200
Speaker 2: couple we know, you know, and then they could with

1813
01:54:22,280 --> 01:54:24,760
Speaker 2: the understanding they could kind of check in on us

1814
01:54:24,760 --> 01:54:27,880
Speaker 2: when we're older and we're you know, we're thinking, well,

1815
01:54:28,200 --> 01:54:30,400
Speaker 2: what if they get a divorce, what if this? What

1816
01:54:30,439 --> 01:54:37,680
Speaker 2: if that? But uh, I don't know, I'm not uh

1817
01:54:37,800 --> 01:54:42,240
Speaker 2: And I'd buy art a lot, you know, like paintings

1818
01:54:42,280 --> 01:54:48,240
Speaker 2: that are really expensive that I never thought I would

1819
01:54:48,320 --> 01:54:52,320
Speaker 2: be able to do or And you're crazy if you

1820
01:54:52,320 --> 01:54:54,880
Speaker 2: think of it as an investment, because what twenty year

1821
01:54:54,920 --> 01:54:57,520
Speaker 2: old on the street today wants to buy a Picasso pain?

1822
01:54:58,320 --> 01:55:01,080
Speaker 2: You know they're they're you know.

1823
01:55:01,200 --> 01:55:03,800
Speaker 1: Art has become detached from the art itself and it's

1824
01:55:03,840 --> 01:55:07,720
Speaker 1: become a trading item. You sit here and talk about

1825
01:55:07,840 --> 01:55:11,240
Speaker 1: devaluation of Picasso. I'm not sure. I don't agree with that.

1826
01:55:11,760 --> 01:55:13,440
Speaker 1: Picasso's one thing, It's forever.

1827
01:55:14,080 --> 01:55:17,240
Speaker 2: But what I'm saying is you better like it. You know,

1828
01:55:17,400 --> 01:55:19,440
Speaker 2: if you're buying something, you better like it. So that's

1829
01:55:19,480 --> 01:55:23,480
Speaker 2: my attitude. You know. I'm not thinking will I get

1830
01:55:23,520 --> 01:55:26,360
Speaker 2: my money back? Or will it increase in value? I'm

1831
01:55:26,440 --> 01:55:30,480
Speaker 2: just thinking, oh, do I love it enough? And the

1832
01:55:30,520 --> 01:55:32,720
Speaker 2: answer is often yes.

1833
01:55:34,480 --> 01:55:37,720
Speaker 1: And have you made it to the mountaintop or is

1834
01:55:37,720 --> 01:55:40,240
Speaker 1: there a peak in the distance that you want to climb.

1835
01:55:41,440 --> 01:55:44,640
Speaker 2: I've made it to the mountaintop, So.

1836
01:55:44,640 --> 01:55:45,760
Speaker 1: What keeps you going? Now?

1837
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:55,040
Speaker 2: I love it. I really like what I do. I

1838
01:55:55,240 --> 01:55:59,760
Speaker 2: find it incredibly rewarding. I feel I'm at my best

1839
01:56:00,440 --> 01:56:05,680
Speaker 2: when I'm on tour. I will be really, really sad

1840
01:56:05,720 --> 01:56:06,920
Speaker 2: when I can't do it anymore.

1841
01:56:08,480 --> 01:56:10,800
Speaker 1: How much of the enjoyment is writing the piece as

1842
01:56:10,800 --> 01:56:12,120
Speaker 1: opposed to performing live?

1843
01:56:16,360 --> 01:56:19,280
Speaker 2: Thirty writing it seventy percent performing at live.

1844
01:56:19,480 --> 01:56:23,720
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, that's very interesting. Okay. I want to thank

1845
01:56:23,760 --> 01:56:26,919
Speaker 1: you so much for taking the time, David, to speaking

1846
01:56:27,000 --> 01:56:30,800
Speaker 1: with me, and my audience certainly learned certain things about

1847
01:56:30,840 --> 01:56:33,040
Speaker 1: you that I did not know. I'll be thinking as

1848
01:56:33,080 --> 01:56:35,480
Speaker 1: someone who has their own issues with OCD. I found

1849
01:56:35,520 --> 01:56:36,520
Speaker 1: that very interesting.

1850
01:56:37,520 --> 01:56:39,879
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed this. Thank you so much for having.

1851
01:56:39,680 --> 01:56:43,200
Speaker 1: Me right and I just have to comment. You know,

1852
01:56:43,280 --> 01:56:46,600
Speaker 1: I was aware of you and you were off. I'm

1853
01:56:46,640 --> 01:56:50,160
Speaker 1: not really a big NPR person, although I've subscribed to

1854
01:56:50,200 --> 01:56:55,560
Speaker 1: The New Yorker forever, but my girlfriend about fifteen years

1855
01:56:55,560 --> 01:57:01,800
Speaker 1: ago said, we had to see you at UCLA. And

1856
01:57:01,960 --> 01:57:07,120
Speaker 1: once someone sees you, they're closed. I mean, theoretically, someone

1857
01:57:07,160 --> 01:57:09,520
Speaker 1: could be at your gig and leave within the first

1858
01:57:09,560 --> 01:57:12,920
Speaker 1: two minutes, but if you're there for two minutes, you're

1859
01:57:13,000 --> 01:57:16,680
Speaker 1: there till the end. It's you know, it's a unique act.

1860
01:57:17,200 --> 01:57:20,640
Speaker 1: No one can sit there and say, hey, I've seen

1861
01:57:20,720 --> 01:57:24,680
Speaker 1: this before, and I think one of the most interesting

1862
01:57:24,760 --> 01:57:26,840
Speaker 1: things I say, and this goes back to the woke thing,

1863
01:57:26,960 --> 01:57:30,840
Speaker 1: is you say the unsayable that we all know. It's

1864
01:57:30,840 --> 01:57:33,880
Speaker 1: like your point about the middle class. I believe everybody

1865
01:57:33,920 --> 01:57:36,640
Speaker 1: has a story, at least one story, the story of

1866
01:57:36,680 --> 01:57:40,120
Speaker 1: their life. And when you're going on about your father

1867
01:57:40,680 --> 01:57:44,040
Speaker 1: on this recent tour, we all have you know, it's

1868
01:57:44,120 --> 01:57:49,520
Speaker 1: Kiaraskiro with our parents at best. So for someone to say, hey,

1869
01:57:49,560 --> 01:57:52,760
Speaker 1: this is my experience. We all live in a very

1870
01:57:52,920 --> 01:57:56,800
Speaker 1: lonely world and we're looking to identify and you're providing

1871
01:57:56,840 --> 01:58:00,920
Speaker 1: a service to all these people who don't feel connected.

1872
01:58:01,400 --> 01:58:03,680
Speaker 1: Forget the people who are just saying I subscribe to

1873
01:58:03,760 --> 01:58:06,720
Speaker 1: the New Yorker. I hear you on Terry Grows, I'm

1874
01:58:06,720 --> 01:58:10,600
Speaker 1: a fan. There's an essence there. And the great thing

1875
01:58:10,600 --> 01:58:13,560
Speaker 1: about it is you're not pandering in the process, because

1876
01:58:13,560 --> 01:58:16,760
Speaker 1: many people are. You continue to chart your own course,

1877
01:58:16,920 --> 01:58:20,560
Speaker 1: which is just a long winded way to say, if

1878
01:58:20,680 --> 01:58:24,520
Speaker 1: David is in your town, you must go. You must go.

1879
01:58:25,600 --> 01:58:28,560
Speaker 1: Everybody will be talking about it. You'll live on the story.

1880
01:58:28,760 --> 01:58:30,840
Speaker 1: You know. You can watch a movie then say where

1881
01:58:30,840 --> 01:58:32,240
Speaker 1: are we going to dinner? That but if you go

1882
01:58:32,280 --> 01:58:34,080
Speaker 1: to see David you'll be talking about it for at

1883
01:58:34,160 --> 01:58:36,680
Speaker 1: least a week, so thanks again for taking the time.

1884
01:58:37,800 --> 01:58:42,000
Speaker 1: Thanks Bob, till next time. This is Bob Left Sense