WEBVTT - EU Border Enforcement, Part 1 0:00:01.760 --> 0:00:06.840 All media. Hell, everyone, welcome to it could happen here. 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:10.920 Podcasts about things falling apart and people putting them back together. 0:00:11.119 --> 0:00:14.360 Today we're talking about a little of both of those things. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:17.840 I'm joined by Rose, who's a migration activist in the Netherlands, 0:00:18.040 --> 0:00:21.320 and Mick, who has studied migration. We're going to talk 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:24.600 about the EU's border today, and we're going to talk 0:00:24.640 --> 0:00:27.560 about I think a lot of people, especially the bulk 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:29.480 of our listeners in the United States, won't be aware, 0:00:29.600 --> 0:00:36.239 perhaps of how incredibly cruel and fatal the EU's border is, 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:38.160 what it does to people, how it does it, where 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:39.720 it does it. So we're going to talk about that today. 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:42.559 It's very exciting. There's even more war than we have 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:44.800 in the United States, so I'm looking forward to that. 0:00:44.880 --> 0:00:46.720 And so Hi, Welcome to the show, both of you. 0:00:47.000 --> 0:00:49.800 Hi, Thanks, Hi, Thanks for having us. 0:00:50.000 --> 0:00:52.440 Thanks for being here. The way we wanted to structure 0:00:52.479 --> 0:00:57.160 this was Mick has like an excellent presentation for We're 0:00:57.200 --> 0:00:59.520 going to structure this over two episodes. First, we want 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:01.200 to talk about the state of things, and then we 0:01:01.240 --> 0:01:05.200 want to talk about activism in ways that people can 0:01:05.520 --> 0:01:10.360 meaningfully make a difference in this situation. So Nick, Yeah, 0:01:10.360 --> 0:01:12.320 do you'd like to take it away with your with 0:01:12.400 --> 0:01:15.080 your script here wrote and I will interject whenever we 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:15.720 feel like it. 0:01:17.200 --> 0:01:19.760 Okay, fair enough, let's go. 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:20.400 So. 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:25.840 The EU border crisis is largely crisis of the Mediterranean 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:29.440 to see that separates Europe from Africa, and it is 0:01:29.560 --> 0:01:32.360 arguably one of the most deadly borders in the world, 0:01:32.600 --> 0:01:36.919 if not the most deadly border. According to several activists 0:01:37.080 --> 0:01:42.800 organizations such as the United Against Refugee Devs and Abolish Frontex, 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:47.480 which is the EU border agency in charge of protecting 0:01:47.560 --> 0:01:51.960 the border, over fifty two thousand people have died at 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.600 this border as of June twenty twenty three. This number 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:59.400 is almost certainly higher to a number of factors, one 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.120 of which is the significant amount of bodies are never recovered, 0:02:03.400 --> 0:02:05.760 which makes it very hard to verify whether or not 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:10.200 someone has died or is lost somewhere in the migration routes. 0:02:10.800 --> 0:02:14.320 Migration patterns are very hard to keep track of. People 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.080 travel hundreds of kilometers to simply get to a point 0:02:17.440 --> 0:02:21.480 where they can get access to boats or other means 0:02:21.520 --> 0:02:24.880 of being transported across the sea. Yeah, I have a 0:02:24.919 --> 0:02:26.800 picture here that I would like to share with you. 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.000 Listeners can find it in the notes and sources. 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.959 Maybe we'll try and describe it, just so you know 0:02:33.080 --> 0:02:36.520 someone's driving or something they can I guess, Yeah, go ahead, 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:37.799 give me a best shot. 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:42.640 Okay. It's a map of continental Europe with adjacent to 0:02:42.680 --> 0:02:47.720 it Africa and Eurasia. And it's a bunch of arrows 0:02:47.880 --> 0:02:52.000 coalescing on to certain points that grow bigger and bigger. 0:02:52.320 --> 0:02:56.440 And these represent the migration routes and the number of 0:02:56.520 --> 0:02:59.679 people that take a particular path. As you can see, 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:02.480 the thick line, the thicker the ligne, the more people 0:03:02.480 --> 0:03:06.040 it represents. The thinner lines come from the Middle East 0:03:06.120 --> 0:03:09.200 and further to the east. In terms of obstacles and danger, 0:03:09.600 --> 0:03:12.080 I think it's safe to say that crossing Iraq or 0:03:12.120 --> 0:03:14.000 Syria is not without risk. 0:03:14.520 --> 0:03:19.079 Yeah, yeah, I've done that. It's yeah, and I've done 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.960 it in cars and with permission, and it's already pretty 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:25.040 high risk. It's interesting this map is it's a twenty 0:03:25.080 --> 0:03:26.840 seventeen map. Am I seeing that right? 0:03:27.440 --> 0:03:32.120 Yes, it's from the Frontext quarterly reports too, which covers 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:34.239 April till June twenty seventeen. 0:03:34.360 --> 0:03:37.480 Yeah, so maybe this is after the peak of people 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:42.520 leaving that Iraq and Syria area they like there. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.880 Yeah, after twenty fifteen Mayhem. 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.520 Yes, yeah, exactly, not that there are not still significant numbers. 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:53.440 I mean I speak to people in Syria most weeks 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:56.680 who are trying to leave Syria. It's become harder and 0:03:56.720 --> 0:04:00.400 harder due in part to the EU making it borders 0:04:00.400 --> 0:04:02.200 harder and harder and more and more deadly to cross, 0:04:02.200 --> 0:04:04.840 and due to a number of other reasons. But yeah, 0:04:04.880 --> 0:04:07.160 I think those those lines would have been fatter if 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:11.080 we'd gone back, like, you know, three or four years. Yeah, 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:14.119 I mean people in Europe will probably have been familiar 0:04:14.160 --> 0:04:16.680 with this. I mean, of course, says THEE. When was 0:04:16.720 --> 0:04:21.240 the photo taken of the young child who passed away 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:23.160 that was like Cordy. 0:04:23.360 --> 0:04:25.040 I think that was in the summer of. 0:04:26.520 --> 0:04:33.920 Bottom Yeah, Alan Curdy. Yeah, the boy's name was Alan Curty. 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.240 I think a brother of his ground as well. 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:40.159 Yeah, people can look that up if they want to. 0:04:40.600 --> 0:04:43.440 I'll try not to include it. It's quite a horrible 0:04:43.440 --> 0:04:44.600 thing to have to witness. 0:04:45.960 --> 0:04:49.720 No, it's it's it's not a nice photo to see. Ironically, 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.600 it was one of the few moments where like European 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:56.279 people could muster some sympathy for refugees, but yeah, that 0:04:56.480 --> 0:04:58.000 wins at some point. 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.280 Yeah, it's always a case like I don't know, I 0:05:01.320 --> 0:05:04.280 am talking about this before speak about again. But like 0:05:04.440 --> 0:05:06.039 the other day, I was out dropping water and we 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.120 came across a little three year old girl and her 0:05:08.160 --> 0:05:12.600 mother from Guinea, and the young girl was very hypothermic, 0:05:12.880 --> 0:05:14.719 Like at first we didn't notice because we're like, oh, 0:05:14.760 --> 0:05:16.640 this girl is very quiet, and then we're like, oh, okay, 0:05:16.680 --> 0:05:20.120 this girl is very very quiet, and perhaps, you know, 0:05:20.160 --> 0:05:24.200 we should be concerned, and like, I don't know how, 0:05:24.279 --> 0:05:26.880 and no one in their right mind would be like, yeah, 0:05:26.880 --> 0:05:29.000 this is normal and good, and I'm really glad that 0:05:29.000 --> 0:05:30.680 this child is in a place where, you know, if 0:05:30.760 --> 0:05:34.120 left for several more hours, she might die. And everyone 0:05:34.160 --> 0:05:36.960 in that situation, to include people who were just driving by, 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:42.240 were like, oh fuck, we need to help. But sadly, 0:05:42.279 --> 0:05:44.240 when we abstract it to numbers, which is the way 0:05:44.279 --> 0:05:47.880 it's always reported on, right, it's not stories, it's not people, 0:05:48.000 --> 0:05:52.000 it's not little children, it's fifty something thousand people. You know, 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.160 it's hard to imagine fifty something thousand people dying. It's 0:05:55.200 --> 0:05:57.400 easier to feel something for one little boy. 0:05:57.520 --> 0:05:59.640 Yeah, and it's easier to feel something for a child 0:06:00.080 --> 0:06:03.400 or a man. It's easier to feel something for a 0:06:03.440 --> 0:06:06.839 woman than man. And also even the death of Alanchourli 0:06:06.920 --> 0:06:10.599 despite all the yeah, outraged provoked. It was also used 0:06:10.680 --> 0:06:14.320 as a to make the Turkey Deal, which was intended 0:06:14.360 --> 0:06:17.600 to stop people crossing by boat from Turkey to Greece, 0:06:17.960 --> 0:06:20.200 even though that was actually one of the safest migration 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:22.400 roots we had at the time, and it closed up 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:25.680 and people started to move to Libya and instead of 0:06:25.720 --> 0:06:29.640 three kilometers of sea, that meant people had to cross 0:06:29.680 --> 0:06:32.479 one hundred or more kilometers of sea, which was obviously 0:06:32.800 --> 0:06:33.559 way more deadly. 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:36.320 Yeah, and just did you need to Libya? And that 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.239 time in Libya's where we'll find out later is far 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:41.839 from risk free. 0:06:42.480 --> 0:06:45.440 Yeah. Libya is a very different place than Turkey. 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:52.120 Absolutely, Yeah, significantly worse to be than yeah, Turkey. So 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:54.960 to get back on track, as you can also see 0:06:55.000 --> 0:06:58.679 from the picture of a vast majority of those migration 0:06:58.839 --> 0:07:02.279 routes crossed the Sahara Desert, people who die in the 0:07:02.320 --> 0:07:05.720 desert or through other dangers on their journey do not 0:07:05.880 --> 0:07:08.880 make it to the Mediterranean and therefore at tend to 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.080 not end up in the statistics of people dying there, 0:07:12.360 --> 0:07:15.360 But I would still argue that it is undeniable that 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:18.920 those people in fact died due to the migration policies 0:07:19.520 --> 0:07:24.000 that the EU puts in place and enforces. Definitely, it's 0:07:24.080 --> 0:07:25.600 just outside of our purview. 0:07:26.640 --> 0:07:30.400 The United list again of refugee deaths, it's taking into 0:07:30.440 --> 0:07:33.160 account anyone whose death can be attributed to the border, 0:07:33.200 --> 0:07:35.920 So they do also include people dying in the desert, 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:40.240 but there is much less news about it, So the 0:07:40.240 --> 0:07:43.680 figures of frontacs and of IOM usually do not include those. 0:07:43.720 --> 0:07:46.480 But the number you just mentioned that with fifty two thousand, 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.680 it also includes people who made suicide and detention centers, 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.480 or who died of medical neglecting camps. But it also 0:07:54.200 --> 0:07:57.960 includes people who died further from the European border, but 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:02.960 still on borders that are controlled are influenced by European policies. 0:08:03.480 --> 0:08:06.600 Yeah, in the US like to give a sort of 0:08:06.600 --> 0:08:09.720 comparison example that the statistics we have that come from 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:13.400 border patrol, those are the remains that are found, which 0:08:13.440 --> 0:08:15.680 is a subset of the remains that exist in it, 0:08:16.160 --> 0:08:19.520 and it doesn't take into account people who died crossing 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.920 Mexico creepeople who died as fastus as a Darian gap right, 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:27.040 which is very dangerous, and it's becoming more so as 0:08:27.120 --> 0:08:29.920 more traffic goes across it. People who died taking boats 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:32.920 around the Daryan Gap right or for whatever reason didn't 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:36.320 make it. So we too have this kind of attempt 0:08:36.360 --> 0:08:39.440 to I guess when we get government statistics, we have 0:08:39.480 --> 0:08:41.480 to remember that they come from a government perspective and 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:45.240 they will try and minimize the obvious cruelty that's happening. 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.400 I think that's a characteristic of almost every government that 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:54.760 keep the numbers low and don't really engage with the 0:08:54.880 --> 0:08:57.640 actual problems that are at hand. So before we go 0:08:57.760 --> 0:09:01.280 into more specific territories, there are a few things that 0:09:01.320 --> 0:09:04.000 should be made clear. The EU does not follow their 0:09:04.040 --> 0:09:07.640 own rules about migration. Hopefully, at the end of this 0:09:07.920 --> 0:09:11.040 the listeners will also accept that the humanitarian and migration 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:16.520 crises is much more a product of border policies rather 0:09:16.600 --> 0:09:20.920 than the policies being a consequence of migration. To first 0:09:21.000 --> 0:09:24.120 illustrate this, here is a quote from government dot NL, 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:29.480 the English version of the Dutch government websites Asylum or Return. 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:33.600 All refugees entering the EU may apply for asylum. They 0:09:33.679 --> 0:09:36.040 must do this in the country where they enter the EU. 0:09:36.480 --> 0:09:40.200 Asylum Seekers who do not require protection must return to 0:09:40.240 --> 0:09:43.760 their country of origin or to a save third country. 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.679 The EU respects the human rights of refugees, both when 0:09:47.720 --> 0:09:51.920 dealing with their applications and with regard to return. So 0:09:52.679 --> 0:09:55.920 I want you all to keep this in mind when 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.959 we continue, because this phrasing ignores other policies that make 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:03.800 much harder for migrants and refugees to even enter the 0:10:03.840 --> 0:10:08.000 EU or to be able to apply for asylum. So, 0:10:08.400 --> 0:10:11.200 and before we dive deeper into the atrocities that the 0:10:11.240 --> 0:10:14.959 EU enables, I think it's important to first briefly explain 0:10:15.200 --> 0:10:19.160 how the border system works and the history behind it. 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:22.480 Europe is no stranger to migration and migrants, and it 0:10:22.520 --> 0:10:24.920 is something that has been happening in the waves over 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:28.840 the past three to four decades. In the early nineties, 0:10:28.880 --> 0:10:31.760 there were multiple waves of migrants from Albania to other 0:10:31.800 --> 0:10:36.319 European countries. The main cause of this was the isolationist 0:10:36.360 --> 0:10:40.440 policies that were enforced by the communist regime that was 0:10:40.480 --> 0:10:43.360 in charge there, the unrest that followed at the end 0:10:43.400 --> 0:10:48.080 of the regime, and the crisis of Kosovo. For those unaware, 0:10:48.520 --> 0:10:52.559 Kosovo had a war with Serbia for independence and Kosovari 0:10:52.600 --> 0:10:56.960 people are largely ethnic Albanians with the same language, and 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.640 because of this, it was easier for Albanians to merge 0:10:59.640 --> 0:11:05.120 with the Kostafari refugees and use that to migrate further 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.760 and easier into Europe. Other waves are closed by other 0:11:08.840 --> 0:11:13.840 geopolitical events, such as the Jasmine Revolution in Tunisia, which 0:11:14.240 --> 0:11:17.840 I think Mia and Roberts covered in their episode on 0:11:17.920 --> 0:11:23.040 self immolation. Yeah, okay, and much more down to everyone 0:11:23.400 --> 0:11:25.880 divorce in Syria and Libya. 0:11:26.080 --> 0:11:29.199 My interest in the border is has always run parallel 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.600 to my interesting conflict in reporting on conflict, and like 0:11:33.360 --> 0:11:36.920 it's just become such a such a recurrent experience to 0:11:37.760 --> 0:11:41.480 either learn about conflicts at the border here because somebody 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:44.679 is telling me about them, or learn about often like 0:11:45.200 --> 0:11:49.760 repression of ethnic or national or religious minorities because someone 0:11:49.800 --> 0:11:52.960 here tells me about them, or to go somewhere. You know, 0:11:53.040 --> 0:11:56.680 I was in Syria in October, was in Iraq the 0:11:57.400 --> 0:12:02.319 and then return and see people from there at our border. 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:06.120 And like, as people will be aware the asylum system 0:12:06.160 --> 0:12:08.280 and it will cover it later. The asylum system allows 0:12:08.320 --> 0:12:12.400 people who are very in danger of persecution for various 0:12:12.400 --> 0:12:16.560 categories to apply for asylum. It's not functioning. It's not 0:12:16.600 --> 0:12:18.559 functioning the e U, it's not functioning in the US. 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.600 Like I've seen that persecution with my own eyes and 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.320 the consequences of it, and I've seen people try and 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.559 get away from it. Every single time I'm in somewhere 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:29.760 like that, people will ask me for help, and it 0:12:29.840 --> 0:12:34.120 is fucking heartbreaking to be like, yeah, the country that 0:12:34.200 --> 0:12:36.760 you see flying the F sixteens or the F thirty 0:12:36.800 --> 0:12:40.080 fives over your head, the planes that cost more than 0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.040 this entire town makes in a year. No, we can't 0:12:43.080 --> 0:12:45.640 have a functioning fucking immigration system. Like in the case 0:12:45.679 --> 0:12:47.720 of the US, it's this app which doesn't work and 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:51.040 you can only use it Northern Mexico City. And it's 0:12:51.559 --> 0:12:55.040 this broken system leads to people. They're not like getting 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:57.480 in a boat across the Mediterranean, crossing the Darien Gap, 0:12:57.679 --> 0:13:02.280 walking across the mountains of Northern Mexico because they want 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.280 to have like a better iPhone. They're doing it because 0:13:05.320 --> 0:13:10.160 whatever the alternative is seems worse and it's worth People 0:13:10.240 --> 0:13:13.160 are fully aware that they're risking their lives on these journeys. 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:17.640 It's you know, it's not that they live without access 0:13:17.679 --> 0:13:20.600 to news and the internet. They know about the death 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:23.880 in the Mediterranean, they know about the Dariant Gap. When 0:13:23.880 --> 0:13:26.720 I talk to migrants who haven't crossed the gap, like 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.199 I was talking to group of Colombian migrants two or 0:13:29.200 --> 0:13:32.400 three days ago, and they were coming in to the 0:13:32.520 --> 0:13:36.040 US through It's in an area east of Hocomber, which's 0:13:36.160 --> 0:13:38.480 very rugged and very mountainous, and they were coming into 0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:40.960 an open air detention site where border patrol holds them. 0:13:41.200 --> 0:13:44.559 And I was talking to them, I say, how many 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:46.240 if you walked, how many if you flew. Most of 0:13:46.280 --> 0:13:49.560 them flew and then were able to work forward. The 0:13:49.559 --> 0:13:53.160 ones who walked. Everyone was like, oh shit, that's horrible, 0:13:53.480 --> 0:13:56.520 Like you must have seen terrible things. Like they're very 0:13:56.600 --> 0:13:59.040 aware of how dangerous these journeys are. The reason that 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:01.160 they're taking them is because it seems like staying at 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:02.679 home would be more dangerous. 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.160 Yeah, although I would like to add that it's not 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.240 every migrant is a real refugee, and not every migrant 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:13.160 has to be a real refugee. Yes, at least as 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.120 the definition was established in the fifties by a bunch 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:19.840 of pretentious guys who kind of decided this is a 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:22.760 good reason to migrate and all other reasons are not. 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:26.480 At first, yeah, at first I worked in Greece and 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:30.400 that was mainly with people of like what are considered 0:14:30.480 --> 0:14:34.160 like objectively real or good refugees, like people from Afghanistan 0:14:34.240 --> 0:14:37.000 and Iraq and Syria, whereas when I was working in 0:14:37.040 --> 0:14:42.080 Bosnia it was mainly people from Morocco, Algeria, Pakistan. And 0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:45.400 a lack of opportunity can be a very good reason 0:14:45.440 --> 0:14:47.800 to move. I think most white people who moved to 0:14:47.840 --> 0:14:52.160 America did so because of that. Yeah, not because they 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:55.440 were imminently you know, bombed in their home countries, but 0:14:55.560 --> 0:14:58.360 because they wanted to make something out of their lives 0:14:58.400 --> 0:15:01.240 and they didn't have opportunities at home. And I think 0:15:01.280 --> 0:15:07.880 this whole concept of refugee is meant to distinguish between 0:15:07.880 --> 0:15:10.960 good and bad reasons to move, and good and bad 0:15:11.640 --> 0:15:14.880 people migrants. In the end, people can do really dangerous 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:18.360 things for giving their children a better life, and if 0:15:18.360 --> 0:15:22.200 their children are not immediate danger. And the other thing 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:24.720 I would like to stress is that I think the 0:15:25.000 --> 0:15:28.040 migration regime that we see today is very tightly connected 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:33.440 to colonization and decolonization. For example, specifically in the Midlands, 0:15:33.880 --> 0:15:36.320 Surinam was a Dutch colony and one of the reasons 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:40.920 why the Dutch government agreed with decolonization was because the 0:15:41.000 --> 0:15:43.360 Dutch society started to get worried about all the black 0:15:43.400 --> 0:15:48.720 people showing up. So and the same something similar happened 0:15:48.760 --> 0:15:52.880 with the independence word that Algeria fought against France. France 0:15:53.040 --> 0:15:56.200 preferred to give them independence rather than give them equal 0:15:56.280 --> 0:16:02.760 rights and access to the French territory. Like creating those 0:16:02.800 --> 0:16:06.000 barriers and keeping people in the Global South after these 0:16:06.040 --> 0:16:11.320 countries became independent is very tighly connected with ecolonization, but 0:16:11.400 --> 0:16:14.560 of course especially with new colonization and new ways of 0:16:14.600 --> 0:16:17.080 controlling people in the Global South and exploiting them. 0:16:17.520 --> 0:16:20.440 Yeah, if we look at like the US context, the 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:23.160 United States government has managed to engineer this sort of 0:16:23.200 --> 0:16:27.280 compromise where capital travels freely across the Americas and people 0:16:27.320 --> 0:16:29.720 don't right, so it's possible for them to exploit lower 0:16:29.720 --> 0:16:33.120 wage labor, for US companies to exploit lower wage labor 0:16:33.160 --> 0:16:35.160 in Mexico and other countries to the south, but not 0:16:35.240 --> 0:16:38.200 for those people to come and seek a better way 0:16:38.280 --> 0:16:40.640 to better way of living in the country that is 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.880 consuming the products of their labor and so like this 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:46.720 is obviously not new to people, right, this is a 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:49.320 thing that's appartist to highlighted in nineteen ninety four and 0:16:49.360 --> 0:16:51.960 it's been the case for thirty years. But yeah, we 0:16:52.040 --> 0:16:54.960 have in the US because the United States and colonialism 0:16:55.280 --> 0:16:59.440 like kind of a in a somewhat less overway, although 0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:04.480 often in a pretty over way. It's facilitated undemocratic regimes 0:17:04.600 --> 0:17:07.600 and a low quality of life for people all across 0:17:07.600 --> 0:17:09.680 specifically the Americas, but also the rest of the world. 0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.359 And it's now seeking to prevent those people from coming 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:16.679 here after it destabilized to their countries, right or in 0:17:16.720 --> 0:17:20.159 the case of climate change, again, like the consumption habits 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.840 of certain countries that have had an impact on people 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:28.400 all around the world, to include people in more dieconomic circumstances. 0:17:28.440 --> 0:17:32.480 And it shouldn't be any less should we shouldn't have 0:17:32.520 --> 0:17:35.439 any less empathy or solidarity with those people because no 0:17:35.440 --> 0:17:38.200 one's bombing them and they just want to chance for 0:17:38.240 --> 0:17:39.960 their kids to do the same shit. Like I moved 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:41.960 to America and I was twenty one because they want 0:17:42.000 --> 0:17:45.000 many jobs for me at home, Like there's something. 0:17:44.840 --> 0:17:48.280 Very arrogant about thinking that you can decide whether someone 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:51.560 else has a right to exist totally. And I think 0:17:51.600 --> 0:17:53.920 that's kind of what migration policies are. 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.600 Yeah, and as you pointed out, they were established after 0:17:58.720 --> 0:18:01.959 the Second World War with a very narrow set of categories. 0:18:02.200 --> 0:18:04.240 Don't include not only do not include climate change, but 0:18:04.240 --> 0:18:07.160 also like generalized violence, right, the generalized veru. Yeah. 0:18:07.200 --> 0:18:10.040 Actually it's like seeing from a war is not making 0:18:10.080 --> 0:18:12.840 you a real refugee according to international. 0:18:12.400 --> 0:18:13.640 Law, yeah, yeah, which is. 0:18:13.600 --> 0:18:16.560 Something people don't know. So like an average sharing refugee 0:18:16.600 --> 0:18:18.040 is actually legally not. 0:18:18.000 --> 0:18:20.320 A refugee, right, Yeah, they are in. 0:18:20.280 --> 0:18:23.440 Discriminate violence, but not like they don't have like political 0:18:24.119 --> 0:18:25.800 they don't have a right to political asylum. 0:18:26.119 --> 0:18:29.560 Yeah, or like people in Ecuador will will talk to 0:18:29.880 --> 0:18:31.240 talk to people from Ecuador a lot, you know, and 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.000 they'll be like, well, you've seen men they took over 0:18:33.040 --> 0:18:35.240 the TV station. So there's some gangs took over a 0:18:35.320 --> 0:18:38.320 TV station there recently, and it's kind of an armed takeover. 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:40.120 And then like, as you can see, would you want 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:42.320 your child growing up there? You know, if you had children, 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.399 And of course it's a very compelling argument and if 0:18:46.440 --> 0:18:49.800 I was in their position with young children. Guy I 0:18:49.840 --> 0:18:52.639 met the other day his son needed medical care that 0:18:52.680 --> 0:18:55.920 he couldn't obtain in his country. You know, like that's 0:18:55.920 --> 0:18:58.840 a perfectly valid reason for coming here. But none of 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.000 those things count for asylum to those people that I'd 0:19:02.000 --> 0:19:04.800 a lumped into quote unquote economic migrants, which is still 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:06.960 you know, like people have a right to a living 0:19:07.000 --> 0:19:09.760 wage and to be able to pay for their family, 0:19:09.760 --> 0:19:11.960 to have the things that they need to survive and thrive. 0:19:12.880 --> 0:19:16.800 You're right, the asylum system is very narrow, and we. 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:20.680 Should also not forget that, even if we're excluding war, 0:19:21.640 --> 0:19:26.399 you can't really separate migration from the things the West 0:19:26.440 --> 0:19:31.000 has done in those other countries to maintain that neocolonial 0:19:31.200 --> 0:19:36.840 relationship and you know, keep those keep those people dependent 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.160 on whatever whims there are in the West, and whether 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:44.119 that's for resources, whether that's for because there were like 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.560 the communist regimes there that we weren't happy with. Like, 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:51.919 you can't separate that. You can separate the conditions that 0:19:51.960 --> 0:19:56.440 are happening there right now to things that have been 0:19:56.440 --> 0:19:59.719 decided in the West years prior. 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:14.760 Yeah, very true, All right, we're back. Have you enjoyed 0:20:14.760 --> 0:20:18.680 those adverts products and services following our discussion on how 0:20:18.720 --> 0:20:21.320 capitalism has made life unlivable in certain parts of the world. 0:20:21.640 --> 0:20:23.879 So Mick Kail, let's pick up with you explaining this 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:25.920 to EU border to us well. 0:20:26.160 --> 0:20:29.320 I found a very nice scholarly article that breaks down 0:20:29.400 --> 0:20:32.680 how the EU borders work and makes a very clear 0:20:32.720 --> 0:20:38.960 distinction between the different layers that protect fortress Europe. These 0:20:39.040 --> 0:20:43.080 layers will be called the paper border, which largely consists 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.000 of visa policies and similar bureaucracy that regulates movement to 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:52.000 the EU and within it. Then we have the iron border, 0:20:52.280 --> 0:20:55.280 which is exactly what you imagine it to me, it's 0:20:55.480 --> 0:21:00.320 the physical structures and forms of control that we put 0:21:00.400 --> 0:21:02.679 up to keep people out. And then we have the 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:07.440 post border, and that's about the reception of migrants, migrant 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:13.440 shelters and similar constructions that keep migrants and refugees ostracized 0:21:13.480 --> 0:21:18.320 and isolated even after being allowed access into the EU 0:21:18.560 --> 0:21:23.480 and having started a asylum process. For those stories, we 0:21:23.520 --> 0:21:26.199 should turn to Rose when we get there, because she 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:28.280 is much more on the ground experience than I have 0:21:28.800 --> 0:21:32.240 with this, So we'll start with the paper border. During 0:21:32.240 --> 0:21:34.960 the mid eighties, the EU started to propose and enact 0:21:35.000 --> 0:21:39.399 a series of treaties and policies that in effect strengthened 0:21:39.440 --> 0:21:44.639 the external borders and loosened the borders within Europe. I 0:21:44.640 --> 0:21:47.919 think no one is particularly interested in this series of treaties, 0:21:48.280 --> 0:21:52.800 so I will name the only one is the Shangan Treaty. 0:21:53.800 --> 0:21:58.840 This treaty essentially unites the external borders under EU command 0:21:59.359 --> 0:22:03.360 rather than as a task for individual states. In practice, 0:22:03.359 --> 0:22:06.479 this also means that you citizens who have a proper 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:11.639 documentation can move really between countries who are who have 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:15.960 signed the sang In Treaty for holidays or work loose. 0:22:16.000 --> 0:22:18.480 You and I we could move to Germany tomorrow if 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:22.040 we wanted to, and I have little to know obstacles 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.879 in terms of like documentary. 0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:28.160 Were economically independent though, like that is very crucial about 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:31.120 your friend. Enough movement is conditional on. 0:22:31.680 --> 0:22:35.120 You making money, yeah, having enough money to support yourself. 0:22:35.240 --> 0:22:37.760 But you can move like this is very funny. Pissed 0:22:37.800 --> 0:22:40.639 off British people who are living in Spain right when 0:22:40.720 --> 0:22:43.959 they when Britain brexited, because they hadn't realized that they 0:22:43.960 --> 0:22:45.680 would impact them. They you know, like. 0:22:47.520 --> 0:22:51.440 Was only the Polish that we yeah, like the undesirable migrants, 0:22:51.440 --> 0:22:54.480 but yes, assume themselves to be desirable. 0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.440 Yeah, well, yeah, I don't think we use the word 0:22:57.480 --> 0:22:59.959 expat right like Bridge would use the word expected its 0:23:00.000 --> 0:23:03.280 describe a migrant from Britain to Spain like it's yeah, 0:23:03.440 --> 0:23:05.680