1 00:00:01,760 --> 00:00:06,840 Speaker 1: All media. Hell, everyone, welcome to it could happen here. 2 00:00:06,920 --> 00:00:10,920 Speaker 1: Podcasts about things falling apart and people putting them back together. 3 00:00:11,119 --> 00:00:14,360 Speaker 1: Today we're talking about a little of both of those things. 4 00:00:14,480 --> 00:00:17,840 Speaker 1: I'm joined by Rose, who's a migration activist in the Netherlands, 5 00:00:18,040 --> 00:00:21,320 Speaker 1: and Mick, who has studied migration. We're going to talk 6 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,600 Speaker 1: about the EU's border today, and we're going to talk 7 00:00:24,640 --> 00:00:27,560 Speaker 1: about I think a lot of people, especially the bulk 8 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:29,480 Speaker 1: of our listeners in the United States, won't be aware, 9 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:36,239 Speaker 1: perhaps of how incredibly cruel and fatal the EU's border is, 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,160 Speaker 1: what it does to people, how it does it, where 11 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:39,720 Speaker 1: it does it. So we're going to talk about that today. 12 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,559 Speaker 1: It's very exciting. There's even more war than we have 13 00:00:42,640 --> 00:00:44,800 Speaker 1: in the United States, so I'm looking forward to that. 14 00:00:44,880 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: And so Hi, Welcome to the show, both of you. 15 00:00:47,000 --> 00:00:49,800 Speaker 2: Hi, Thanks, Hi, Thanks for having us. 16 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:52,440 Speaker 1: Thanks for being here. The way we wanted to structure 17 00:00:52,479 --> 00:00:57,160 Speaker 1: this was Mick has like an excellent presentation for We're 18 00:00:57,200 --> 00:00:59,520 Speaker 1: going to structure this over two episodes. First, we want 19 00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:01,200 Speaker 1: to talk about the state of things, and then we 20 00:01:01,240 --> 00:01:05,200 Speaker 1: want to talk about activism in ways that people can 21 00:01:05,520 --> 00:01:10,360 Speaker 1: meaningfully make a difference in this situation. So Nick, Yeah, 22 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:12,320 Speaker 1: do you'd like to take it away with your with 23 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:15,080 Speaker 1: your script here wrote and I will interject whenever we 24 00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 1: feel like it. 25 00:01:17,200 --> 00:01:19,760 Speaker 2: Okay, fair enough, let's go. 26 00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 3: So. 27 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:25,840 Speaker 2: The EU border crisis is largely crisis of the Mediterranean 28 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 2: to see that separates Europe from Africa, and it is 29 00:01:29,560 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 2: arguably one of the most deadly borders in the world, 30 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:36,919 Speaker 2: if not the most deadly border. According to several activists 31 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:42,800 Speaker 2: organizations such as the United Against Refugee Devs and Abolish Frontex, 32 00:01:43,440 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 2: which is the EU border agency in charge of protecting 33 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,960 Speaker 2: the border, over fifty two thousand people have died at 34 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 2: this border as of June twenty twenty three. This number 35 00:01:55,640 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 2: is almost certainly higher to a number of factors, one 36 00:01:59,440 --> 00:02:03,120 Speaker 2: of which is the significant amount of bodies are never recovered, 37 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: which makes it very hard to verify whether or not 38 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,200 Speaker 2: someone has died or is lost somewhere in the migration routes. 39 00:02:10,800 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 2: Migration patterns are very hard to keep track of. People 40 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: travel hundreds of kilometers to simply get to a point 41 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:21,480 Speaker 2: where they can get access to boats or other means 42 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 2: of being transported across the sea. Yeah, I have a 43 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:26,800 Speaker 2: picture here that I would like to share with you. 44 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:30,000 Speaker 2: Listeners can find it in the notes and sources. 45 00:02:30,480 --> 00:02:32,959 Speaker 1: Maybe we'll try and describe it, just so you know 46 00:02:33,080 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 1: someone's driving or something they can I guess, Yeah, go ahead, 47 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:37,799 Speaker 1: give me a best shot. 48 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 2: Okay. It's a map of continental Europe with adjacent to 49 00:02:42,680 --> 00:02:47,720 Speaker 2: it Africa and Eurasia. And it's a bunch of arrows 50 00:02:47,880 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 2: coalescing on to certain points that grow bigger and bigger. 51 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:56,440 Speaker 2: And these represent the migration routes and the number of 52 00:02:56,520 --> 00:02:59,679 Speaker 2: people that take a particular path. As you can see, 53 00:02:59,680 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 2: the thick line, the thicker the ligne, the more people 54 00:03:02,480 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 2: it represents. The thinner lines come from the Middle East 55 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,200 Speaker 2: and further to the east. In terms of obstacles and danger, 56 00:03:09,600 --> 00:03:12,080 Speaker 2: I think it's safe to say that crossing Iraq or 57 00:03:12,120 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 2: Syria is not without risk. 58 00:03:14,520 --> 00:03:19,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I've done that. It's yeah, and I've done 59 00:03:19,080 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: it in cars and with permission, and it's already pretty 60 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 1: high risk. It's interesting this map is it's a twenty 61 00:03:25,080 --> 00:03:26,840 Speaker 1: seventeen map. Am I seeing that right? 62 00:03:27,440 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 2: Yes, it's from the Frontext quarterly reports too, which covers 63 00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:34,239 Speaker 2: April till June twenty seventeen. 64 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, so maybe this is after the peak of people 65 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,520 Speaker 1: leaving that Iraq and Syria area they like there. 66 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, after twenty fifteen Mayhem. 67 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, exactly, not that there are not still significant numbers. 68 00:03:49,520 --> 00:03:53,440 Speaker 1: I mean I speak to people in Syria most weeks 69 00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 1: who are trying to leave Syria. It's become harder and 70 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 1: harder due in part to the EU making it borders 71 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: harder and harder and more and more deadly to cross, 72 00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:04,840 Speaker 1: and due to a number of other reasons. But yeah, 73 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: I think those those lines would have been fatter if 74 00:04:07,160 --> 00:04:11,080 Speaker 1: we'd gone back, like, you know, three or four years. Yeah, 75 00:04:11,440 --> 00:04:14,119 Speaker 1: I mean people in Europe will probably have been familiar 76 00:04:14,160 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: with this. I mean, of course, says THEE. When was 77 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:21,240 Speaker 1: the photo taken of the young child who passed away 78 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:23,160 Speaker 1: that was like Cordy. 79 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 3: I think that was in the summer of. 80 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 2: Bottom Yeah, Alan Curdy. Yeah, the boy's name was Alan Curty. 81 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,240 Speaker 2: I think a brother of his ground as well. 82 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:40,159 Speaker 1: Yeah, people can look that up if they want to. 83 00:04:40,600 --> 00:04:43,440 Speaker 1: I'll try not to include it. It's quite a horrible 84 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,600 Speaker 1: thing to have to witness. 85 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,720 Speaker 2: No, it's it's it's not a nice photo to see. Ironically, 86 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:52,600 Speaker 2: it was one of the few moments where like European 87 00:04:52,600 --> 00:04:56,279 Speaker 2: people could muster some sympathy for refugees, but yeah, that 88 00:04:56,480 --> 00:04:58,000 Speaker 2: wins at some point. 89 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:01,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's always a case like I don't know, I 90 00:05:01,320 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: am talking about this before speak about again. But like 91 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 1: the other day, I was out dropping water and we 92 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: came across a little three year old girl and her 93 00:05:08,160 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: mother from Guinea, and the young girl was very hypothermic, 94 00:05:12,880 --> 00:05:14,719 Speaker 1: Like at first we didn't notice because we're like, oh, 95 00:05:14,760 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: this girl is very quiet, and then we're like, oh, okay, 96 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 1: this girl is very very quiet, and perhaps, you know, 97 00:05:20,160 --> 00:05:24,200 Speaker 1: we should be concerned, and like, I don't know how, 98 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: and no one in their right mind would be like, yeah, 99 00:05:26,880 --> 00:05:29,000 Speaker 1: this is normal and good, and I'm really glad that 100 00:05:29,000 --> 00:05:30,680 Speaker 1: this child is in a place where, you know, if 101 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: left for several more hours, she might die. And everyone 102 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,960 Speaker 1: in that situation, to include people who were just driving by, 103 00:05:37,120 --> 00:05:42,240 Speaker 1: were like, oh fuck, we need to help. But sadly, 104 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:44,240 Speaker 1: when we abstract it to numbers, which is the way 105 00:05:44,279 --> 00:05:47,880 Speaker 1: it's always reported on, right, it's not stories, it's not people, 106 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: it's not little children, it's fifty something thousand people. You know, 107 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,160 Speaker 1: it's hard to imagine fifty something thousand people dying. It's 108 00:05:55,200 --> 00:05:57,400 Speaker 1: easier to feel something for one little boy. 109 00:05:57,520 --> 00:05:59,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's easier to feel something for a child 110 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 3: or a man. It's easier to feel something for a 111 00:06:03,440 --> 00:06:06,839 Speaker 3: woman than man. And also even the death of Alanchourli 112 00:06:06,920 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 3: despite all the yeah, outraged provoked. It was also used 113 00:06:10,680 --> 00:06:14,320 Speaker 3: as a to make the Turkey Deal, which was intended 114 00:06:14,360 --> 00:06:17,600 Speaker 3: to stop people crossing by boat from Turkey to Greece, 115 00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:20,200 Speaker 3: even though that was actually one of the safest migration 116 00:06:20,320 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 3: roots we had at the time, and it closed up 117 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 3: and people started to move to Libya and instead of 118 00:06:25,720 --> 00:06:29,640 Speaker 3: three kilometers of sea, that meant people had to cross 119 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:32,479 Speaker 3: one hundred or more kilometers of sea, which was obviously 120 00:06:32,800 --> 00:06:33,559 Speaker 3: way more deadly. 121 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, and just did you need to Libya? And that 122 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,239 Speaker 1: time in Libya's where we'll find out later is far 123 00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: from risk free. 124 00:06:42,480 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 3: Yeah. Libya is a very different place than Turkey. 125 00:06:45,640 --> 00:06:52,120 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, significantly worse to be than yeah, Turkey. So 126 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 2: to get back on track, as you can also see 127 00:06:55,000 --> 00:06:58,679 Speaker 2: from the picture of a vast majority of those migration 128 00:06:58,839 --> 00:07:02,279 Speaker 2: routes crossed the Sahara Desert, people who die in the 129 00:07:02,320 --> 00:07:05,720 Speaker 2: desert or through other dangers on their journey do not 130 00:07:05,880 --> 00:07:08,880 Speaker 2: make it to the Mediterranean and therefore at tend to 131 00:07:08,960 --> 00:07:12,080 Speaker 2: not end up in the statistics of people dying there, 132 00:07:12,360 --> 00:07:15,360 Speaker 2: But I would still argue that it is undeniable that 133 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 2: those people in fact died due to the migration policies 134 00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: that the EU puts in place and enforces. Definitely, it's 135 00:07:24,080 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: just outside of our purview. 136 00:07:26,640 --> 00:07:30,400 Speaker 3: The United list again of refugee deaths, it's taking into 137 00:07:30,440 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 3: account anyone whose death can be attributed to the border, 138 00:07:33,200 --> 00:07:35,920 Speaker 3: So they do also include people dying in the desert, 139 00:07:36,520 --> 00:07:40,240 Speaker 3: but there is much less news about it, So the 140 00:07:40,240 --> 00:07:43,680 Speaker 3: figures of frontacs and of IOM usually do not include those. 141 00:07:43,720 --> 00:07:46,480 Speaker 3: But the number you just mentioned that with fifty two thousand, 142 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,680 Speaker 3: it also includes people who made suicide and detention centers, 143 00:07:50,760 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: or who died of medical neglecting camps. But it also 144 00:07:54,200 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 3: includes people who died further from the European border, but 145 00:07:58,120 --> 00:08:02,960 Speaker 3: still on borders that are controlled are influenced by European policies. 146 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, in the US like to give a sort of 147 00:08:06,600 --> 00:08:09,720 Speaker 1: comparison example that the statistics we have that come from 148 00:08:09,760 --> 00:08:13,400 Speaker 1: border patrol, those are the remains that are found, which 149 00:08:13,440 --> 00:08:15,680 Speaker 1: is a subset of the remains that exist in it, 150 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:19,520 Speaker 1: and it doesn't take into account people who died crossing 151 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 1: Mexico creepeople who died as fastus as a Darian gap right, 152 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:27,040 Speaker 1: which is very dangerous, and it's becoming more so as 153 00:08:27,120 --> 00:08:29,920 Speaker 1: more traffic goes across it. People who died taking boats 154 00:08:29,920 --> 00:08:32,920 Speaker 1: around the Daryan Gap right or for whatever reason didn't 155 00:08:32,960 --> 00:08:36,320 Speaker 1: make it. So we too have this kind of attempt 156 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:39,440 Speaker 1: to I guess when we get government statistics, we have 157 00:08:39,480 --> 00:08:41,480 Speaker 1: to remember that they come from a government perspective and 158 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:45,240 Speaker 1: they will try and minimize the obvious cruelty that's happening. 159 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:49,400 Speaker 2: I think that's a characteristic of almost every government that 160 00:08:50,200 --> 00:08:54,760 Speaker 2: keep the numbers low and don't really engage with the 161 00:08:54,880 --> 00:08:57,640 Speaker 2: actual problems that are at hand. So before we go 162 00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:01,280 Speaker 2: into more specific territories, there are a few things that 163 00:09:01,320 --> 00:09:04,000 Speaker 2: should be made clear. The EU does not follow their 164 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 2: own rules about migration. Hopefully, at the end of this 165 00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:11,040 Speaker 2: the listeners will also accept that the humanitarian and migration 166 00:09:11,679 --> 00:09:16,520 Speaker 2: crises is much more a product of border policies rather 167 00:09:16,600 --> 00:09:20,920 Speaker 2: than the policies being a consequence of migration. To first 168 00:09:21,000 --> 00:09:24,120 Speaker 2: illustrate this, here is a quote from government dot NL, 169 00:09:24,480 --> 00:09:29,480 Speaker 2: the English version of the Dutch government websites Asylum or Return. 170 00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:33,600 Speaker 2: All refugees entering the EU may apply for asylum. They 171 00:09:33,679 --> 00:09:36,040 Speaker 2: must do this in the country where they enter the EU. 172 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,200 Speaker 2: Asylum Seekers who do not require protection must return to 173 00:09:40,240 --> 00:09:43,760 Speaker 2: their country of origin or to a save third country. 174 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 2: The EU respects the human rights of refugees, both when 175 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 2: dealing with their applications and with regard to return. So 176 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,920 Speaker 2: I want you all to keep this in mind when 177 00:09:55,920 --> 00:09:59,959 Speaker 2: we continue, because this phrasing ignores other policies that make 178 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 2: much harder for migrants and refugees to even enter the 179 00:10:03,840 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: EU or to be able to apply for asylum. So, 180 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:11,200 Speaker 2: and before we dive deeper into the atrocities that the 181 00:10:11,240 --> 00:10:14,959 Speaker 2: EU enables, I think it's important to first briefly explain 182 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:19,160 Speaker 2: how the border system works and the history behind it. 183 00:10:19,280 --> 00:10:22,480 Speaker 2: Europe is no stranger to migration and migrants, and it 184 00:10:22,520 --> 00:10:24,920 Speaker 2: is something that has been happening in the waves over 185 00:10:24,920 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 2: the past three to four decades. In the early nineties, 186 00:10:28,880 --> 00:10:31,760 Speaker 2: there were multiple waves of migrants from Albania to other 187 00:10:31,800 --> 00:10:36,319 Speaker 2: European countries. The main cause of this was the isolationist 188 00:10:36,360 --> 00:10:40,440 Speaker 2: policies that were enforced by the communist regime that was 189 00:10:40,480 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: in charge there, the unrest that followed at the end 190 00:10:43,400 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 2: of the regime, and the crisis of Kosovo. For those unaware, 191 00:10:48,520 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 2: Kosovo had a war with Serbia for independence and Kosovari 192 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,960 Speaker 2: people are largely ethnic Albanians with the same language, and 193 00:10:57,000 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: because of this, it was easier for Albanians to merge 194 00:10:59,640 --> 00:11:05,120 Speaker 2: with the Kostafari refugees and use that to migrate further 195 00:11:05,160 --> 00:11:08,760 Speaker 2: and easier into Europe. Other waves are closed by other 196 00:11:08,840 --> 00:11:13,840 Speaker 2: geopolitical events, such as the Jasmine Revolution in Tunisia, which 197 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,840 Speaker 2: I think Mia and Roberts covered in their episode on 198 00:11:17,920 --> 00:11:23,040 Speaker 2: self immolation. Yeah, okay, and much more down to everyone 199 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,880 Speaker 2: divorce in Syria and Libya. 200 00:11:26,080 --> 00:11:29,199 Speaker 1: My interest in the border is has always run parallel 201 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:32,600 Speaker 1: to my interesting conflict in reporting on conflict, and like 202 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: it's just become such a such a recurrent experience to 203 00:11:37,760 --> 00:11:41,480 Speaker 1: either learn about conflicts at the border here because somebody 204 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:44,679 Speaker 1: is telling me about them, or learn about often like 205 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:49,760 Speaker 1: repression of ethnic or national or religious minorities because someone 206 00:11:49,800 --> 00:11:52,960 Speaker 1: here tells me about them, or to go somewhere. You know, 207 00:11:53,040 --> 00:11:56,680 Speaker 1: I was in Syria in October, was in Iraq the 208 00:11:57,400 --> 00:12:02,319 Speaker 1: and then return and see people from there at our border. 209 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:06,120 Speaker 1: And like, as people will be aware the asylum system 210 00:12:06,160 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: and it will cover it later. The asylum system allows 211 00:12:08,320 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 1: people who are very in danger of persecution for various 212 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:16,560 Speaker 1: categories to apply for asylum. It's not functioning. It's not 213 00:12:16,600 --> 00:12:18,559 Speaker 1: functioning the e U, it's not functioning in the US. 214 00:12:18,679 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 1: Like I've seen that persecution with my own eyes and 215 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,320 Speaker 1: the consequences of it, and I've seen people try and 216 00:12:24,320 --> 00:12:27,559 Speaker 1: get away from it. Every single time I'm in somewhere 217 00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:29,760 Speaker 1: like that, people will ask me for help, and it 218 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,120 Speaker 1: is fucking heartbreaking to be like, yeah, the country that 219 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:36,760 Speaker 1: you see flying the F sixteens or the F thirty 220 00:12:36,800 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: fives over your head, the planes that cost more than 221 00:12:40,160 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 1: this entire town makes in a year. No, we can't 222 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:45,640 Speaker 1: have a functioning fucking immigration system. Like in the case 223 00:12:45,679 --> 00:12:47,720 Speaker 1: of the US, it's this app which doesn't work and 224 00:12:47,760 --> 00:12:51,040 Speaker 1: you can only use it Northern Mexico City. And it's 225 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: this broken system leads to people. They're not like getting 226 00:12:55,080 --> 00:12:57,480 Speaker 1: in a boat across the Mediterranean, crossing the Darien Gap, 227 00:12:57,679 --> 00:13:02,280 Speaker 1: walking across the mountains of Northern Mexico because they want 228 00:13:02,320 --> 00:13:05,280 Speaker 1: to have like a better iPhone. They're doing it because 229 00:13:05,320 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: whatever the alternative is seems worse and it's worth People 230 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: are fully aware that they're risking their lives on these journeys. 231 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:17,640 Speaker 1: It's you know, it's not that they live without access 232 00:13:17,679 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 1: to news and the internet. They know about the death 233 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: in the Mediterranean, they know about the Dariant Gap. When 234 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,720 Speaker 1: I talk to migrants who haven't crossed the gap, like 235 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:29,199 Speaker 1: I was talking to group of Colombian migrants two or 236 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: three days ago, and they were coming in to the 237 00:13:32,520 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: US through It's in an area east of Hocomber, which's 238 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:38,480 Speaker 1: very rugged and very mountainous, and they were coming into 239 00:13:38,480 --> 00:13:40,960 Speaker 1: an open air detention site where border patrol holds them. 240 00:13:41,200 --> 00:13:44,559 Speaker 1: And I was talking to them, I say, how many 241 00:13:44,600 --> 00:13:46,240 Speaker 1: if you walked, how many if you flew. Most of 242 00:13:46,280 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 1: them flew and then were able to work forward. The 243 00:13:49,559 --> 00:13:53,160 Speaker 1: ones who walked. Everyone was like, oh shit, that's horrible, 244 00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:56,520 Speaker 1: Like you must have seen terrible things. Like they're very 245 00:13:56,600 --> 00:13:59,040 Speaker 1: aware of how dangerous these journeys are. The reason that 246 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: they're taking them is because it seems like staying at 247 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 1: home would be more dangerous. 248 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,160 Speaker 3: Yeah, although I would like to add that it's not 249 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 3: every migrant is a real refugee, and not every migrant 250 00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: has to be a real refugee. Yes, at least as 251 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,120 Speaker 3: the definition was established in the fifties by a bunch 252 00:14:16,120 --> 00:14:19,840 Speaker 3: of pretentious guys who kind of decided this is a 253 00:14:19,880 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 3: good reason to migrate and all other reasons are not. 254 00:14:23,960 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 3: At first, yeah, at first I worked in Greece and 255 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 3: that was mainly with people of like what are considered 256 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:34,160 Speaker 3: like objectively real or good refugees, like people from Afghanistan 257 00:14:34,240 --> 00:14:37,000 Speaker 3: and Iraq and Syria, whereas when I was working in 258 00:14:37,040 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: Bosnia it was mainly people from Morocco, Algeria, Pakistan. And 259 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:45,400 Speaker 3: a lack of opportunity can be a very good reason 260 00:14:45,440 --> 00:14:47,800 Speaker 3: to move. I think most white people who moved to 261 00:14:47,840 --> 00:14:52,160 Speaker 3: America did so because of that. Yeah, not because they 262 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 3: were imminently you know, bombed in their home countries, but 263 00:14:55,560 --> 00:14:58,360 Speaker 3: because they wanted to make something out of their lives 264 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:01,240 Speaker 3: and they didn't have opportunities at home. And I think 265 00:15:01,280 --> 00:15:07,880 Speaker 3: this whole concept of refugee is meant to distinguish between 266 00:15:07,880 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 3: good and bad reasons to move, and good and bad 267 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 3: people migrants. In the end, people can do really dangerous 268 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:18,360 Speaker 3: things for giving their children a better life, and if 269 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:22,200 Speaker 3: their children are not immediate danger. And the other thing 270 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 3: I would like to stress is that I think the 271 00:15:25,000 --> 00:15:28,040 Speaker 3: migration regime that we see today is very tightly connected 272 00:15:28,080 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 3: to colonization and decolonization. For example, specifically in the Midlands, 273 00:15:33,880 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 3: Surinam was a Dutch colony and one of the reasons 274 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: why the Dutch government agreed with decolonization was because the 275 00:15:41,000 --> 00:15:43,360 Speaker 3: Dutch society started to get worried about all the black 276 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 3: people showing up. So and the same something similar happened 277 00:15:48,760 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: with the independence word that Algeria fought against France. France 278 00:15:53,040 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 3: preferred to give them independence rather than give them equal 279 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:02,760 Speaker 3: rights and access to the French territory. Like creating those 280 00:16:02,800 --> 00:16:06,000 Speaker 3: barriers and keeping people in the Global South after these 281 00:16:06,040 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 3: countries became independent is very tighly connected with ecolonization, but 282 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,560 Speaker 3: of course especially with new colonization and new ways of 283 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:17,080 Speaker 3: controlling people in the Global South and exploiting them. 284 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:20,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, if we look at like the US context, the 285 00:16:20,520 --> 00:16:23,160 Speaker 1: United States government has managed to engineer this sort of 286 00:16:23,200 --> 00:16:27,280 Speaker 1: compromise where capital travels freely across the Americas and people 287 00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: don't right, so it's possible for them to exploit lower 288 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: wage labor, for US companies to exploit lower wage labor 289 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:35,160 Speaker 1: in Mexico and other countries to the south, but not 290 00:16:35,240 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: for those people to come and seek a better way 291 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:40,640 Speaker 1: to better way of living in the country that is 292 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:44,880 Speaker 1: consuming the products of their labor and so like this 293 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 1: is obviously not new to people, right, this is a 294 00:16:46,760 --> 00:16:49,320 Speaker 1: thing that's appartist to highlighted in nineteen ninety four and 295 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: it's been the case for thirty years. But yeah, we 296 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 1: have in the US because the United States and colonialism 297 00:16:55,280 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 1: like kind of a in a somewhat less overway, although 298 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:04,480 Speaker 1: often in a pretty over way. It's facilitated undemocratic regimes 299 00:17:04,600 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: and a low quality of life for people all across 300 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: specifically the Americas, but also the rest of the world. 301 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:13,359 Speaker 1: And it's now seeking to prevent those people from coming 302 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:16,679 Speaker 1: here after it destabilized to their countries, right or in 303 00:17:16,720 --> 00:17:20,159 Speaker 1: the case of climate change, again, like the consumption habits 304 00:17:20,160 --> 00:17:23,840 Speaker 1: of certain countries that have had an impact on people 305 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:28,400 Speaker 1: all around the world, to include people in more dieconomic circumstances. 306 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 1: And it shouldn't be any less should we shouldn't have 307 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,439 Speaker 1: any less empathy or solidarity with those people because no 308 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,200 Speaker 1: one's bombing them and they just want to chance for 309 00:17:38,240 --> 00:17:39,960 Speaker 1: their kids to do the same shit. Like I moved 310 00:17:40,000 --> 00:17:41,960 Speaker 1: to America and I was twenty one because they want 311 00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,000 Speaker 1: many jobs for me at home, Like there's something. 312 00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:48,280 Speaker 3: Very arrogant about thinking that you can decide whether someone 313 00:17:48,359 --> 00:17:51,560 Speaker 3: else has a right to exist totally. And I think 314 00:17:51,600 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 3: that's kind of what migration policies are. 315 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, and as you pointed out, they were established after 316 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,959 Speaker 1: the Second World War with a very narrow set of categories. 317 00:18:02,200 --> 00:18:04,240 Speaker 1: Don't include not only do not include climate change, but 318 00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:07,160 Speaker 1: also like generalized violence, right, the generalized veru. Yeah. 319 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 3: Actually it's like seeing from a war is not making 320 00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:12,840 Speaker 3: you a real refugee according to international. 321 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,640 Speaker 1: Law, yeah, yeah, which is. 322 00:18:13,600 --> 00:18:16,560 Speaker 3: Something people don't know. So like an average sharing refugee 323 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 3: is actually legally not. 324 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: A refugee, right, Yeah, they are in. 325 00:18:20,280 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 3: Discriminate violence, but not like they don't have like political 326 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:25,800 Speaker 3: they don't have a right to political asylum. 327 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, or like people in Ecuador will will talk to 328 00:18:29,880 --> 00:18:31,240 Speaker 1: talk to people from Ecuador a lot, you know, and 329 00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,000 Speaker 1: they'll be like, well, you've seen men they took over 330 00:18:33,040 --> 00:18:35,240 Speaker 1: the TV station. So there's some gangs took over a 331 00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: TV station there recently, and it's kind of an armed takeover. 332 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:40,120 Speaker 1: And then like, as you can see, would you want 333 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: your child growing up there? You know, if you had children, 334 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:46,399 Speaker 1: And of course it's a very compelling argument and if 335 00:18:46,440 --> 00:18:49,800 Speaker 1: I was in their position with young children. Guy I 336 00:18:49,840 --> 00:18:52,639 Speaker 1: met the other day his son needed medical care that 337 00:18:52,680 --> 00:18:55,920 Speaker 1: he couldn't obtain in his country. You know, like that's 338 00:18:55,920 --> 00:18:58,840 Speaker 1: a perfectly valid reason for coming here. But none of 339 00:18:58,880 --> 00:19:02,000 Speaker 1: those things count for asylum to those people that I'd 340 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:04,800 Speaker 1: a lumped into quote unquote economic migrants, which is still 341 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 1: you know, like people have a right to a living 342 00:19:07,000 --> 00:19:09,760 Speaker 1: wage and to be able to pay for their family, 343 00:19:09,760 --> 00:19:11,960 Speaker 1: to have the things that they need to survive and thrive. 344 00:19:12,880 --> 00:19:16,800 Speaker 1: You're right, the asylum system is very narrow, and we. 345 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:20,680 Speaker 2: Should also not forget that, even if we're excluding war, 346 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:26,399 Speaker 2: you can't really separate migration from the things the West 347 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:31,000 Speaker 2: has done in those other countries to maintain that neocolonial 348 00:19:31,200 --> 00:19:36,840 Speaker 2: relationship and you know, keep those keep those people dependent 349 00:19:36,960 --> 00:19:40,160 Speaker 2: on whatever whims there are in the West, and whether 350 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,119 Speaker 2: that's for resources, whether that's for because there were like 351 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,560 Speaker 2: the communist regimes there that we weren't happy with. Like, 352 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:51,919 Speaker 2: you can't separate that. You can separate the conditions that 353 00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 2: are happening there right now to things that have been 354 00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,719 Speaker 2: decided in the West years prior. 355 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:14,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, very true, All right, we're back. Have you enjoyed 356 00:20:14,760 --> 00:20:18,680 Speaker 1: those adverts products and services following our discussion on how 357 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,320 Speaker 1: capitalism has made life unlivable in certain parts of the world. 358 00:20:21,640 --> 00:20:23,879 Speaker 1: So Mick Kail, let's pick up with you explaining this 359 00:20:23,960 --> 00:20:25,920 Speaker 1: to EU border to us well. 360 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:29,320 Speaker 2: I found a very nice scholarly article that breaks down 361 00:20:29,400 --> 00:20:32,680 Speaker 2: how the EU borders work and makes a very clear 362 00:20:32,720 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 2: distinction between the different layers that protect fortress Europe. These 363 00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 2: layers will be called the paper border, which largely consists 364 00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 2: of visa policies and similar bureaucracy that regulates movement to 365 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 2: the EU and within it. Then we have the iron border, 366 00:20:52,280 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 2: which is exactly what you imagine it to me, it's 367 00:20:55,480 --> 00:21:00,320 Speaker 2: the physical structures and forms of control that we put 368 00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:02,679 Speaker 2: up to keep people out. And then we have the 369 00:21:02,760 --> 00:21:07,440 Speaker 2: post border, and that's about the reception of migrants, migrant 370 00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:13,440 Speaker 2: shelters and similar constructions that keep migrants and refugees ostracized 371 00:21:13,480 --> 00:21:18,320 Speaker 2: and isolated even after being allowed access into the EU 372 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:23,480 Speaker 2: and having started a asylum process. For those stories, we 373 00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:26,199 Speaker 2: should turn to Rose when we get there, because she 374 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:28,280 Speaker 2: is much more on the ground experience than I have 375 00:21:28,800 --> 00:21:32,240 Speaker 2: with this, So we'll start with the paper border. During 376 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:34,960 Speaker 2: the mid eighties, the EU started to propose and enact 377 00:21:35,000 --> 00:21:39,399 Speaker 2: a series of treaties and policies that in effect strengthened 378 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:44,639 Speaker 2: the external borders and loosened the borders within Europe. I 379 00:21:44,640 --> 00:21:47,919 Speaker 2: think no one is particularly interested in this series of treaties, 380 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 2: so I will name the only one is the Shangan Treaty. 381 00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 2: This treaty essentially unites the external borders under EU command 382 00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,360 Speaker 2: rather than as a task for individual states. In practice, 383 00:22:03,359 --> 00:22:06,479 Speaker 2: this also means that you citizens who have a proper 384 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:11,639 Speaker 2: documentation can move really between countries who are who have 385 00:22:11,720 --> 00:22:15,960 Speaker 2: signed the sang In Treaty for holidays or work loose. 386 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 2: You and I we could move to Germany tomorrow if 387 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:22,040 Speaker 2: we wanted to, and I have little to know obstacles 388 00:22:22,040 --> 00:22:24,879 Speaker 2: in terms of like documentary. 389 00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 3: Were economically independent though, like that is very crucial about 390 00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:31,120 Speaker 3: your friend. Enough movement is conditional on. 391 00:22:31,680 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 1: You making money, yeah, having enough money to support yourself. 392 00:22:35,240 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: But you can move like this is very funny. Pissed 393 00:22:37,800 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: off British people who are living in Spain right when 394 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,959 Speaker 1: they when Britain brexited, because they hadn't realized that they 395 00:22:43,960 --> 00:22:45,680 Speaker 1: would impact them. They you know, like. 396 00:22:47,520 --> 00:22:51,440 Speaker 3: Was only the Polish that we yeah, like the undesirable migrants, 397 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 3: but yes, assume themselves to be desirable. 398 00:22:54,560 --> 00:22:57,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, well, yeah, I don't think we use the word 399 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,959 Speaker 1: expat right like Bridge would use the word expected its 400 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: describe a migrant from Britain to Spain like it's yeah, 401 00:23:03,440 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 1: it's reallyiculous. I mean, I've lived in front in Spain, 402 00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:09,879 Speaker 1: of fift in Belgium and I was, I guess, somewhat 403 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: economically independent. Made twelve thousand years a year as a 404 00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: bike racer, but that was you know, I could do that. 405 00:23:15,400 --> 00:23:17,959 Speaker 1: It's very easy for me, but it is. 406 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 3: I do think it's important because I think it's one 407 00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 3: of those post border things that what we see for 408 00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 3: some point in analyts is that most homeless people here 409 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,320 Speaker 3: are not the undocumented migrants. They are not the refugees 410 00:23:30,400 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 3: or Dutch people that they're EU migrants. So people have 411 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,960 Speaker 3: low paying jobs, break their legs, get kicked out of 412 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 3: their houses and their jobs, and are not welcoming to 413 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,080 Speaker 3: homeless shelters because an endlands says, well, you are not 414 00:23:43,200 --> 00:23:47,480 Speaker 3: economically independent. There were, Yeah, so this is also part 415 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,560 Speaker 3: of the migration regime, and this is also part of 416 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,760 Speaker 3: keeping migrants exploitable. Even if you use citizens have the 417 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 3: right to work, they don't. They're only allowed to work. 418 00:23:57,480 --> 00:24:00,760 Speaker 3: We only want them if they bring in econo profits. 419 00:24:01,040 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 3: We don't want them when they're sick or neat or whatever. 420 00:24:04,040 --> 00:24:07,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then mostly we want them for jobs that 421 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: we feel too good to actually do. When I was younger, 422 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 2: I used to work in a greenhouse, and there's an 423 00:24:14,000 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: immense amount of people from like Poland or other Eastern 424 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 2: European countries coming there because Dutch people tend not to 425 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,480 Speaker 2: want to work in a greenhouse. It's one of those things. 426 00:24:27,800 --> 00:24:32,120 Speaker 1: It's an extension of that, like a colonial perspective, right 427 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:33,920 Speaker 1: that like, these are not jobs for. 428 00:24:33,880 --> 00:24:38,399 Speaker 2: Us exactly because you get your hands dirty and we 429 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:42,920 Speaker 2: can't have that here. To put the whole thing about 430 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 2: the paper border into less academic term, the EU started 431 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:50,400 Speaker 2: to act like a nation state and started to make 432 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 2: sharp distinctions between native and non native European citizens. I 433 00:24:54,800 --> 00:24:58,000 Speaker 2: think it's worth pointing out that what counts as EU 434 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:02,440 Speaker 2: is also a how was it? European identity. It's very 435 00:25:02,440 --> 00:25:08,160 Speaker 2: closely tied to geographical location and therefore also implicitly linked 436 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:12,720 Speaker 2: to Christianity. Countries that are largely non Christian but connected 437 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:17,240 Speaker 2: to Europe tend to be excluded. Turkey is partially in 438 00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 2: Europe but not part of the EU, and Bosnia Herzegovina, 439 00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:27,919 Speaker 2: which is a majority Muslim country, is also excluded from that. 440 00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:32,320 Speaker 2: But much like Turkey is being tempted with the whole 441 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: maybe you can join if you do this and that, 442 00:25:35,640 --> 00:25:39,240 Speaker 2: but we're not really committing to that. That, however, is 443 00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: a story for another time. Maybe The point that I 444 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 2: want to make here is that the visa program for 445 00:25:45,440 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 2: Europe is based on geographical discrimination. Countries outside the geography 446 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:54,119 Speaker 2: of Europe are blacklisted and cannot gain access to the 447 00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:58,000 Speaker 2: papers that they need to legally enter the EU. This 448 00:25:58,119 --> 00:26:02,919 Speaker 2: bureaucracy prohibits people from entering the EU before fences or 449 00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:07,800 Speaker 2: border guards have even entered the equation, hence the paper border, 450 00:26:07,960 --> 00:26:12,280 Speaker 2: since entering or crossing without a paper visa is nigh impossible. 451 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, I would like to add, of course, like it 452 00:26:14,640 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 3: is geographical discrimination, but of course indirectly it is discrimination 453 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:21,199 Speaker 3: based on class and race, So it is people of 454 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,280 Speaker 3: color but not the super rich people of color, and 455 00:26:25,359 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 3: it is yeah, it is. It is formerly colonized countries 456 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 3: that are largely that even have an obligation to get 457 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:36,320 Speaker 3: a visa, so people from the US can travel visa free, 458 00:26:37,560 --> 00:26:42,040 Speaker 3: same for people from Australia. So it is like it 459 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 3: is very ironic. I find that it's in Europe it's 460 00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:49,119 Speaker 3: considered legal to discriminate based on nationality, even though it 461 00:26:49,200 --> 00:26:52,880 Speaker 3: is very clearly a very smart way to discriminate actually 462 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:55,600 Speaker 3: people based on the color of their skin and their 463 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:56,680 Speaker 3: economic status. 464 00:26:57,280 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 2: Exactly what you said, Rose, Like all the countries that 465 00:27:01,440 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 2: are backlisted are like from the the global South, so 466 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:08,760 Speaker 2: I have to speak almost all of them. But I 467 00:27:08,800 --> 00:27:12,159 Speaker 2: talked to about this with a professor of mine a 468 00:27:12,200 --> 00:27:14,720 Speaker 2: while back, and I think if you can put down 469 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,480 Speaker 2: like thirty thousand euros, then you can get a visa 470 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:19,000 Speaker 2: even if you're from those countries. 471 00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,240 Speaker 3: Exactly. So the super rich. Actually, the super rich have 472 00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 3: freedom of movements, yeah, but the it is always the 473 00:27:26,760 --> 00:27:30,600 Speaker 3: poor migrants whose movement is problematic and whose. 474 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 1: Movement is Yeah. In Britain and in the US, there's 475 00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,399 Speaker 1: a lot of discourse about like open borders. I've noticed like, oh, 476 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:39,880 Speaker 1: the border is open, right, Like the border has always 477 00:27:39,920 --> 00:27:43,199 Speaker 1: been open to people like me. I live in the 478 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,880 Speaker 1: United States, right, I am a US citizen. Now I'm 479 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,119 Speaker 1: also a British citizen. I've lived and worked in Spain, 480 00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:50,840 Speaker 1: I've lived and worked in France, I've lived and worked 481 00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: in Belgium. I can go, and I can get a 482 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: visa to i Rack. I can get a visa to 483 00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:57,159 Speaker 1: anywhere I want. The borders have always been open to 484 00:27:57,320 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: white people who have financial means. What they're saying when 485 00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:04,720 Speaker 1: they're saying open borders is implicitly border is open to 486 00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:08,480 Speaker 1: people who are not white, not wealthy, perhaps not Christian. 487 00:28:09,160 --> 00:28:13,360 Speaker 1: And what one can infer from that is a great 488 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:17,080 Speaker 1: deal of bigotry and a great deal of like unease 489 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,760 Speaker 1: about living, you know, alongside people who you feel like 490 00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: are not like the same quote unquote as you, which 491 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,080 Speaker 1: is particularly run in the United States, right in a 492 00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: country which is itself a settler colony. 493 00:28:29,080 --> 00:28:34,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's all very very uplifting stuff. I do want 494 00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,680 Speaker 2: to end this particular bit with the quote from that article, Yeah, 495 00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:41,880 Speaker 2: because I think it it says it much more fancy 496 00:28:41,920 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 2: than I ever could, Rather than guards with guns, this 497 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:48,240 Speaker 2: first border. If the EU is watched over by bureaucrats 498 00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,480 Speaker 2: armed with paper and entrenched in far away embassies. Through 499 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,480 Speaker 2: this political technology, all citizens of a large group of 500 00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,440 Speaker 2: nations bart to view are blacklists. This means in practice 501 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,120 Speaker 2: that most of the citizens of these blacklisted countries cannot 502 00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:09,440 Speaker 2: acquire the visas they require to legally travel to the EU. 503 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 2: The implication is that the paper border of the EU 504 00:29:12,800 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 2: remotely and invisibly cages people in the inequitable or tree 505 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 2: of birth end quote. I think it's very much worth 506 00:29:21,720 --> 00:29:26,040 Speaker 2: highlighting that if you're as we've established, unless you're like 507 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: wealthy or white, you cannot legally enter the e EU. 508 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:36,080 Speaker 2: And even though our politicians keep saying no, no, we're 509 00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:40,040 Speaker 2: just against the illegals, now there is for a lot 510 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,400 Speaker 2: of people there simply is no way to enter legally. 511 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,840 Speaker 2: It's impossible, and it's a large part of the conversation 512 00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,440 Speaker 2: that we conveniently ignore because it doesn't fit like the 513 00:29:51,480 --> 00:29:54,040 Speaker 2: political narratives that people want to spread. 514 00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, and of course most refugee conventions allow for people 515 00:29:58,520 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 1: to enter between ports of entry in whichever way they 516 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:04,080 Speaker 1: can to claim asylum, Like one does not have to 517 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:07,640 Speaker 1: and turn a certain way to claim asylum, despite what 518 00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:08,920 Speaker 1: the discourse might suggest. 519 00:30:09,720 --> 00:30:12,200 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I think this border is like probably the 520 00:30:12,240 --> 00:30:16,320 Speaker 3: most overlooked because it doesn't create any dramatic pictures, right 521 00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,640 Speaker 3: it is indeed, it's just people sitting in an office 522 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,280 Speaker 3: and looking at papers and deciding no. But these are 523 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,960 Speaker 3: like in Dutch. Yeah, these are people working at the 524 00:30:25,000 --> 00:30:29,440 Speaker 3: immigration office. And these are the people who then decide 525 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:33,080 Speaker 3: that's the only option for people is to go on 526 00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 3: a boat. So these these are policies and the people 527 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:41,120 Speaker 3: who are executing them are super crucial in enforcing people 528 00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,040 Speaker 3: onto dangerous. 529 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:47,200 Speaker 2: Routes exactly because there is no way to do it legally. Therefore, 530 00:30:47,240 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 2: I have to set foot on that soil and then 531 00:30:51,400 --> 00:30:54,239 Speaker 2: you know, apply for asylum because the other route is 532 00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 2: like before I even tried, already closed off. 533 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:03,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I really like that term, the inequitable of birth. 534 00:31:05,360 --> 00:31:08,760 Speaker 3: We call it like support hides. Yeah, but it's one 535 00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:14,360 Speaker 3: of the most insane or like most fundamentally unjust things 536 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 3: that we see, that we are living with and that 537 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:20,360 Speaker 3: we don't see or like that many people don't see. 538 00:31:20,400 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 3: So just because we were born, like I was born 539 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 3: in one of the richest countries of in the world. 540 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:27,920 Speaker 3: My parents had a Dutch passport. That's how I got 541 00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:30,600 Speaker 3: a Dutch fasport. I did literally nothing to get that. 542 00:31:31,440 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 3: It is impossible for me to lose my Dutch passport. 543 00:31:33,720 --> 00:31:36,800 Speaker 3: I commit I can commit like the worst crimes and 544 00:31:36,840 --> 00:31:38,760 Speaker 3: they will not, you know, they will not lead me 545 00:31:38,840 --> 00:31:43,400 Speaker 3: to lose my passport. Whereas other people who are born 546 00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:46,720 Speaker 3: in countries where life expectancy is crazy low, or where 547 00:31:46,720 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 3: there's no healthcare or no proper education or jobs, they 548 00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,400 Speaker 3: too did absolutely nothing to be born there or to 549 00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 3: be assigned to that nationality. And so somehow this border 550 00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:02,400 Speaker 3: and this passport is legitimizing the fact that some people 551 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 3: just die and we're fine with that, and other people 552 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 3: have insane privileges and opportunities, and the nationality is kind 553 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,640 Speaker 3: of a justification because if you really think about it, 554 00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,200 Speaker 3: there is no reason why the midium wage in Ethiopia 555 00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,520 Speaker 3: should be lower than in the Netlands, Like there really isn't. 556 00:32:23,080 --> 00:32:25,560 Speaker 3: The only reason is that they have a different nationality, 557 00:32:25,600 --> 00:32:30,160 Speaker 3: and somehow that makes it normal. And it's just yeah, 558 00:32:30,160 --> 00:32:33,280 Speaker 3: it's just this injustice in just structures that are so 559 00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:36,960 Speaker 3: invisible and that are not questioned or talked about enough. 560 00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:39,440 Speaker 3: So I'm glad we're talking about it today. 561 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: But yeah, good, it's such a stark reality when you 562 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 1: live on the border. That guy live on the US 563 00:32:44,800 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: Mexico border, and like what on earth, Like, you know, 564 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: the justification for being like oh yeah, this person should 565 00:32:51,600 --> 00:32:53,240 Speaker 1: arn less money and they can't come here, but you 566 00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:55,440 Speaker 1: can go down there and buy stuff at the same price, ake, 567 00:32:55,480 --> 00:33:00,200 Speaker 1: and that's fine, Like, it's totally fine. Yeah, An, we're 568 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,400 Speaker 1: going to build a giant fuck off wall. And it's 569 00:33:03,440 --> 00:33:06,040 Speaker 1: just such when I spend a lot of time in 570 00:33:06,040 --> 00:33:08,480 Speaker 1: the more remote parts of the US border, and for 571 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:10,560 Speaker 1: most of the time that border country to what you 572 00:33:10,640 --> 00:33:13,760 Speaker 1: might have seen on the news is a one meter 573 00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,880 Speaker 1: high cattle fence with a single strand above wire. And 574 00:33:16,920 --> 00:33:19,600 Speaker 1: it's so obviously just a light like very often cattle 575 00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,600 Speaker 1: will cross the border, and like they will have to 576 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:26,920 Speaker 1: be herded back right, like the it's just a notional 577 00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:28,960 Speaker 1: line in the sand. When they built the border wall, 578 00:33:29,560 --> 00:33:35,320 Speaker 1: it really fucked up the migration habits of jaguars, bears, deer. 579 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,600 Speaker 1: I've seen animals unable to comprehend. Like, but no, that's 580 00:33:39,600 --> 00:33:41,560 Speaker 1: where I go and get my water, right, Like, it's 581 00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:45,520 Speaker 1: such an arbitrary distinction that that results in so much cruelty. 582 00:33:46,600 --> 00:33:48,400 Speaker 3: But we do build walls better than you. 583 00:33:49,200 --> 00:33:52,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a good segue to the European iron border. 584 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,719 Speaker 3: One thing we are more cruel at than the Americans. 585 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it's finally something we can beat the American sets. 586 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:02,160 Speaker 1: I'm mad. We're working on it, believe me. 587 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 2: Okay, well, not too hard. We want we want to 588 00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: keep this trophy for a while. 589 00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,440 Speaker 1: You know what else is competing to be the most 590 00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:16,320 Speaker 1: cruel Mick, No, it's it's it's potentially the production services 591 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:29,400 Speaker 1: support this show. All right, we're back. We hope you 592 00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,920 Speaker 1: enjoyed those products and services. Hopefully it wasn't for like 593 00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:36,919 Speaker 1: a border surveillance technology or you know, something similar walls. 594 00:34:37,400 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 2: Okay, so the next part is the Iron Border. This 595 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:44,960 Speaker 2: is very similar to what people already think of, but 596 00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:49,240 Speaker 2: but somehow worse. The Iron Border is a collection of fences, walls, 597 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:53,439 Speaker 2: barbed and razor wire, or even fortified enclaves such as 598 00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:58,680 Speaker 2: Suta and Melilla in Spain. Sorry for butchering those names. 599 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 2: It is both the Trent and a performance. It's meant 600 00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,840 Speaker 2: to project security for people within the walls. It shows 601 00:35:07,880 --> 00:35:11,760 Speaker 2: that EU uses an iron fist to protect Europeans from 602 00:35:12,040 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 2: irregular or illegal immigrant migration. What is more important to 603 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:21,200 Speaker 2: highlight it also makes for very good outreach media for 604 00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,760 Speaker 2: right wing and fascist platforms. Refugees will continue to breach 605 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 2: those fences and the photographs and videos of it made 606 00:35:29,840 --> 00:35:33,560 Speaker 2: for very good propaganda about how borders need to be strengthened. 607 00:35:33,920 --> 00:35:37,160 Speaker 2: The fenced borders of Europe have increased from three hundred 608 00:35:37,280 --> 00:35:41,880 Speaker 2: kilometers in twenty fourteen to a shocking two thousand and 609 00:35:41,920 --> 00:35:44,759 Speaker 2: forty eight kilometers in twenty twenty two. 610 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:50,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's substantially than the US we have. Of course 611 00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:55,000 Speaker 1: it's America, so it's miles. But the most generous estimate, 612 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:59,799 Speaker 1: based on pre existing war repairs Trump wall building is 613 00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,040 Speaker 1: seven hundred and forty eight miles. That was actually I 614 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:04,959 Speaker 1: would say about seven hundred and fifty because I've seen 615 00:36:05,200 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: construction happening since then, so that's what like eleven hundred kilometers, 616 00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:12,920 Speaker 1: And it's you know, we're just just behalf of what 617 00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:14,000 Speaker 1: the EU has. 618 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,960 Speaker 3: And I think for me, like when I when I 619 00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:22,440 Speaker 3: was at the physical borders, like the border walls, I mean, 620 00:36:22,440 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 3: it feels like a military zone, like I was on 621 00:36:24,480 --> 00:36:29,520 Speaker 3: the Hungarian border. There's drones, there's super heavily weaponed soldiers 622 00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:33,480 Speaker 3: walking around, like helicopters flying around. It's like it's a 623 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:37,960 Speaker 3: very intimidating feeling. But if you talk to the people 624 00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,000 Speaker 3: crossing the fence, the fence is kind of a joke 625 00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 3: like you can just bring Yeah, you can just go 626 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:46,319 Speaker 3: to a gardening shop and buy a stairs or like 627 00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 3: a ladder and just put it over the fence. You 628 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 3: can buy a super simple scissor that you would use 629 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:53,799 Speaker 3: in the garden to cut your vegetables and you kind 630 00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 3: of cut the fence open with it. People were building tunnels, 631 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 3: like of course it is. It takes time to us 632 00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 3: and it's so in that sense, it's it's a hindrance. 633 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:05,719 Speaker 1: But the entire. 634 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:08,720 Speaker 3: Promise that if a wall holl stop people is indeed, 635 00:37:08,719 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 3: it's just a political game, and the politicians know that 636 00:37:11,800 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 3: it's not true. It's it's just a way to show 637 00:37:15,520 --> 00:37:18,719 Speaker 3: how tough they are and how rough they are. And 638 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:21,520 Speaker 3: at the same time, I think this is a good 639 00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:27,960 Speaker 3: one to instant some Palestine to the discussion. So most 640 00:37:28,000 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 3: of the European borders are equipped with razor wire, and 641 00:37:31,880 --> 00:37:35,799 Speaker 3: that is literally like knives wire, you know, like it 642 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:41,680 Speaker 3: is like it's razors blades. Yeah, and this is designed 643 00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:45,280 Speaker 3: by the Israeli army and weapons industry, and the aim 644 00:37:45,360 --> 00:37:48,280 Speaker 3: of these this razor wire is to gut as deeply 645 00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:52,040 Speaker 3: as possible into people's skin without causing pain. So people 646 00:37:52,080 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 3: don't realize how realize how heavily wounded they are, in 647 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 3: order to make them bleed as much as possible. This 648 00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:04,000 Speaker 3: has been tested in Gas and it is really are 649 00:38:04,080 --> 00:38:07,160 Speaker 3: weal liked it, And now it's sold in Europe to 650 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 3: sometimes stuff the same people leaving Flea and Gaza trying 651 00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 3: to reach Europe. So the border in one hand is 652 00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:18,120 Speaker 3: kind of useless, but at the same time it is 653 00:38:18,200 --> 00:38:21,640 Speaker 3: really built to be as cruel and as harmful as possible. 654 00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:23,600 Speaker 3: And I know a lot of people with a lot 655 00:38:23,640 --> 00:38:28,000 Speaker 3: of scars on their bodies just from those razor wires. 656 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think if we want to draw that connection further, 657 00:38:31,160 --> 00:38:34,959 Speaker 1: like Lbit Technologies has massive, multi tens of million dollar 658 00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:37,840 Speaker 1: contracts for border surveillance where I live. Right, the same 659 00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: things that are surveilling people in Gaza are surveilling you 660 00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:44,440 Speaker 1: if you go for a hike in East County, San Diego, 661 00:38:44,480 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: they're also surveilling migrants. Right. The raiser ware that you 662 00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:52,840 Speaker 1: mentioned is everywhere out here. Right. It doesn't work, it 663 00:38:52,840 --> 00:38:55,480 Speaker 1: gets cut eventually, it gets blankets thrown over it, but 664 00:38:55,719 --> 00:39:00,400 Speaker 1: in the meantime it hurts people and the wall. It's right, 665 00:39:00,440 --> 00:39:04,920 Speaker 1: there's also walls between it's rail and Palestine, between Kurdistan 666 00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:08,799 Speaker 1: and Turkey. What they, at least these larger ones do 667 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: is is they force people. The US Wall is also 668 00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,560 Speaker 1: one that's entirely breachable. I've seen people climbing it. I've 669 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:17,600 Speaker 1: seen people climbing again this week. I've seen people go 670 00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,719 Speaker 1: under it, I've seen people go through it. I've seen 671 00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 1: people go around it. But what it does tend to 672 00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:25,359 Speaker 1: do is force people into the more remote areas where 673 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: they didn't build wall, and those areas are where you're 674 00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:31,040 Speaker 1: more likely to die. And every year that we've built 675 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:34,520 Speaker 1: more wall, we've seen more deaths. And as someone who 676 00:39:34,600 --> 00:39:38,080 Speaker 1: engages in mutual aid, every year that they build more wall, 677 00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:40,680 Speaker 1: we have to think about where will people go, how 678 00:39:40,680 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: will they get there, what state will they be in, 679 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,640 Speaker 1: How can we make this journey less deadly? And that 680 00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,600 Speaker 1: becomes harder and harder for us. You know, we did 681 00:39:48,600 --> 00:39:51,200 Speaker 1: a water drop on Sunday. It took us five hours 682 00:39:51,239 --> 00:39:54,279 Speaker 1: to hike a very small section of this trail that 683 00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,440 Speaker 1: people hiked in order to surrender themselves, just as they 684 00:39:57,480 --> 00:39:59,200 Speaker 1: would if they could come through a port of entry. 685 00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: No more deadly. 686 00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's kind of sum sort of most 687 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:08,400 Speaker 3: migration policies or migration like obstacles to migration in Europe 688 00:40:08,400 --> 00:40:11,839 Speaker 3: as well, they don't actually stop migrants, but they do 689 00:40:11,960 --> 00:40:15,719 Speaker 3: hurt them, and they do push them into danger or actual. 690 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 2: Deadly Yeah, because you're never going to stop it, but 691 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:26,880 Speaker 2: you can use like quote unquote deterrens in the hopes 692 00:40:26,960 --> 00:40:29,040 Speaker 2: that will all slow down, but you're just going to 693 00:40:29,080 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 2: get people hurt and killed. 694 00:40:31,000 --> 00:40:37,279 Speaker 3: Yea. Yeah, that is like how incredibly cynecle the border is. 695 00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 3: I think that the main deterrence is the people dying, 696 00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 3: and that this is part of the political game to 697 00:40:45,280 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 3: disencourage migrants. 698 00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, and then you can and then you can use 699 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:55,520 Speaker 2: other policies that we'll get to to present yourself as 700 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 2: the good guy for wanting to make sure that people 701 00:40:57,520 --> 00:41:01,319 Speaker 2: don't cross those walls or across the meta Seradian and 702 00:41:01,400 --> 00:41:03,239 Speaker 2: you can present yourself as the good guy trying to 703 00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:08,240 Speaker 2: prevent those steps that your policies are causing. 704 00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:09,920 Speaker 1: I think that's why we're going to endit for today. 705 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: We'd plan for this to be a one part episode, 706 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:13,799 Speaker 1: but we really enjoyed talking and we had a lot 707 00:41:13,840 --> 00:41:15,600 Speaker 1: in comment, so this is going to be a two parter. 708 00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:19,080 Speaker 1: Tomorrow we will be back to discuss the EU's external 709 00:41:19,120 --> 00:41:21,640 Speaker 1: border and how it has not one EU countries enforcing 710 00:41:21,680 --> 00:41:25,200 Speaker 1: its border in ways that are very detrimental, damaging and 711 00:41:25,239 --> 00:41:27,840 Speaker 1: deadly to migrants. So I hope you look forward to 712 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: that and we'll see you again tomorrow. 713 00:41:34,280 --> 00:41:34,400 Speaker 3: Hi. 714 00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 1: Everyone, it's me James, and I just wanted to read 715 00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:38,759 Speaker 1: you this today. I'm going to put it in our 716 00:41:38,760 --> 00:41:41,759 Speaker 1: episode this week because it's a cause that's important to us, 717 00:41:42,080 --> 00:41:44,080 Speaker 1: and so we thought it would be something that might 718 00:41:44,080 --> 00:41:46,239 Speaker 1: be important to you too as well. On the tenth 719 00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,279 Speaker 1: of June twenty twenty four, Leonard Peltier, an m robed 720 00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: member of the Turtle Band of Chippewa of Lakota and 721 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,120 Speaker 1: Ojibwai ancestry and the longest serving political prisoner in the 722 00:41:55,160 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 1: United States, will be appearing before the US Parole Commission 723 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:02,080 Speaker 1: for the first time since two thousand. He faces staunch 724 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:06,239 Speaker 1: opposition from the FBI and other law enforcement agencies due 725 00:42:06,239 --> 00:42:09,360 Speaker 1: to having allegedly killed two FBI agents in a firefight 726 00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:12,760 Speaker 1: on the twenty sixth of June nineteen seventy five, after 727 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:16,800 Speaker 1: the agents appeared on reservation land to execute a pretextural warrant. 728 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:20,960 Speaker 1: The initial firefight occurred during the quote reign of Terror 729 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:23,440 Speaker 1: on Pine Ridge in the wake of the occupation of 730 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:26,520 Speaker 1: Wounded Kney, a time of extreme violence when federal law 731 00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 1: enforcement installed a puppet tribal chair and was arming vigilantes 732 00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:34,720 Speaker 1: who targeted Indigenous traditionalists every since leaving up to these events, 733 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:39,840 Speaker 1: as well as subsequent investigation and mister Peltier's tradition, trial, conviction, 734 00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,560 Speaker 1: and sentencing were characterized by gross misconduct on the part 735 00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:48,280 Speaker 1: of law enforcement, the prosecution, and the courts. Mister Peltier's 736 00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,040 Speaker 1: co defendants were separately tried and acquitted on grounds of 737 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:55,120 Speaker 1: self defense. Mister Peltier was railroaded, and his case is 738 00:42:55,160 --> 00:42:58,480 Speaker 1: tainted by discrimination at every level, ranging from the withholding 739 00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,600 Speaker 1: of exculpatory evidence to a torture and coercion of extradition 740 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,799 Speaker 1: and trial witnesses, and from the refusal of the judge 741 00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,960 Speaker 1: to dismiss and vowedly racist Dura, to the apologetic gymnastics 742 00:43:08,960 --> 00:43:11,160 Speaker 1: of the courts affirming his convictions in the face of 743 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:15,800 Speaker 1: meritorious legal challenges and admitted evidence ab outrageous government misdeeds. 744 00:43:16,360 --> 00:43:19,200 Speaker 1: Mister Peltier has been in prison for more than forty 745 00:43:19,200 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: eight years and he's almost eighty years old. He suffers 746 00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:26,920 Speaker 1: from chronic and potentially lethal conditions for which he receives 747 00:43:26,960 --> 00:43:30,960 Speaker 1: insufficient and substandard medical care. If you want to take 748 00:43:31,000 --> 00:43:34,840 Speaker 1: action to hashtag free Leonard Peltier, you can call the 749 00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:39,120 Speaker 1: US Parole Commission at two zero two three four six 750 00:43:39,640 --> 00:43:43,279 Speaker 1: seven zero zero zero. And if you'd like to find 751 00:43:43,280 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: more information on how to support, you can go to 752 00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:52,000 Speaker 1: this url. It's http colon slash slash n d NC 753 00:43:53,080 --> 00:44:00,279 Speaker 1: dot c c slash free Leonard Peltier. That's free l 754 00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:03,920 Speaker 1: e O n A R D P E l t 755 00:44:04,200 --> 00:44:06,680 Speaker 1: I e R, or you can follow n d N 756 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:10,040 Speaker 1: Collective on social media for more ways to support him. 757 00:44:10,360 --> 00:44:13,319 Speaker 1: More information on Danna Peltier, listen to Margaret's podcast on 758 00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:15,799 Speaker 1: the Lakota Nation, a read in the Spirit of the 759 00:44:15,840 --> 00:44:17,840 Speaker 1: Crazy Horse by Peter Mathewson. 760 00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:26,480 Speaker 4: It Could Happen Here as a production of cool Zone Media. 761 00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:29,360 Speaker 4: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website 762 00:44:29,400 --> 00:44:31,640 Speaker 4: cool zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the 763 00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:35,239 Speaker 4: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. 764 00:44:35,480 --> 00:44:37,600 Speaker 4: You can find sources for It could Happen Here, updated 765 00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:41,720 Speaker 4: monthly at cool Zonemedia dot com slash sources thanks for listening.