WEBVTT - Perry Maxwell, Prairie Dunes and Southern Hills 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.200 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:06.640 This episode is brought to you by our friends over 0:00:06.680 --> 0:00:09.959 at B Dratty. We've been up in the Upper Peninsula 0:00:10.000 --> 0:00:12.639 of Michigan playing a ton of golf this week, checking 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:16.520 out a few different courses for the website and the podcast. 0:00:17.239 --> 0:00:19.960 While up here, I've been rocking a bunch of Bee 0:00:20.000 --> 0:00:23.080 Dratty gear on and off the course. The B Dratty 0:00:23.079 --> 0:00:25.960 polos are without a doubt, the best out there. It's 0:00:26.000 --> 0:00:29.000 been pretty cool up here in the mornings, and sadly 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:31.880 it tells us that fall is coming. These shirts are 0:00:32.040 --> 0:00:37.080 absolutely perfect for those cooler fall temperatures. They're the absolute 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:40.040 softest shirt I've ever felt, and it comes with this 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:43.519 really cool, worn in old school vibe. The style is 0:00:43.560 --> 0:00:47.680 actually modeled after JFKs, so it's a timeless, iconic feel. 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.440 My current favorite is the Liam Polo. It's their original model. 0:00:52.880 --> 0:00:56.200 One might call it the og of their product line. Actually, 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:00.000 this morning I wore one along with a zero restriction 0:01:00.120 --> 0:01:02.560 invest out at Gray Walls and it was perfect for 0:01:02.640 --> 0:01:06.039 that high fifties morning which is surely coming in the fall. 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:08.280 So you know, I got a little glimpse up in 0:01:08.319 --> 0:01:11.759 the Upper Peninsula of What's Coming. It looked awesome and 0:01:11.959 --> 0:01:14.000 if you want to check it out for yourself, go 0:01:14.040 --> 0:01:17.960 to www dot bdraddy dot com to shop, or check 0:01:18.000 --> 0:01:22.280 out their Instagram at b dratty. That's at b Draddy. 0:01:22.760 --> 0:01:26.160 This episode, it's a little bit different. We're trying something 0:01:26.200 --> 0:01:28.440 new here. Let us know what you think about it. 0:01:28.480 --> 0:01:31.840 But Garrett Morrison, our managing editor at The Frida Egg 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.360 joined we just kind of talked about our trip to 0:01:36.319 --> 0:01:40.280 Prairie Dunes and Southern Hills where we odd on some 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:44.399 Perry Maxwell. So we just talked about the differences and 0:01:45.000 --> 0:01:50.760 talked extensively about the recent renovation effort at Southern Hills, 0:01:50.840 --> 0:01:53.400 which is in line to host some major championships in 0:01:53.440 --> 0:01:56.720 the near future. So we talked at length about Gil 0:01:56.760 --> 0:02:01.160 Hans's renovation there at Southern Hills, and also our experience 0:02:01.200 --> 0:02:04.320 over at Prairie Dunes and the golf course and Perry 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.640 Maxwell and one of the more underappreciated architects in the world. 0:02:07.720 --> 0:02:09.480 So let us know what you think about this episode. 0:02:09.520 --> 0:02:11.720 I think we'll do more and more of these about 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.160 specific courses and architects as as we go along. 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:18.160 I miss a Green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:20.560 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:02:20.639 --> 0:02:22.560 And when I find my ball in a frid Egg 0:02:22.840 --> 0:02:26.240 Friday egg, the dreaded Frida egg Friday, Frida egg egg, 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:28.600 Frida egg bride egg Lie, I'm about ready to run 0:02:28.639 --> 0:02:29.720 off of the course. 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:59.600 So, Garrett, how's how's life in Portland? 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:03.760 Life in Portland is great. It's very chill up here. 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:08.320 The golf is good, and we're really enjoying ourselves. Yeah, 0:03:08.560 --> 0:03:09.400 Oregon's awesome. 0:03:09.800 --> 0:03:12.760 That's that's good. It's uh, how do you find the 0:03:12.800 --> 0:03:14.920 golf scene there versus Pebble. 0:03:17.040 --> 0:03:19.720 It's so much different, and in a lot of ways 0:03:19.720 --> 0:03:24.280 it's so much better because the the golf scene in 0:03:24.919 --> 0:03:30.560 Monterey was all about those great courses that were sort 0:03:30.560 --> 0:03:34.480 of destination courses for people, super expensive to play. If 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:37.000 you were a local, you weren't on them very often, 0:03:38.320 --> 0:03:42.280 and so golf was a very kind of formal thing 0:03:43.240 --> 0:03:46.360 on the Monterey Peninsula. You know, if you're a local, 0:03:46.440 --> 0:03:51.400 your your options are kind of like Pacific Grove, Monterey Pines, 0:03:52.000 --> 0:03:56.840 Poppy Hills, sometimes the Black Horse Bayet courses and even 0:03:56.880 --> 0:04:00.240 those places, like they're not the cheapest courses in the 0:04:00.280 --> 0:04:03.280 world and if you go there, you can expect a 0:04:03.360 --> 0:04:06.920 longish round And so that's kind of what golf was 0:04:07.680 --> 0:04:11.400 for me for a few years there. And now you know, 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:14.960 now that I'm in this area, there are short courses, 0:04:15.160 --> 0:04:18.640 there are pitching potts, there are golf courses that have 0:04:19.040 --> 0:04:24.240 like mini golf facilities attached to them. It's a lot 0:04:24.279 --> 0:04:27.280 different golf is you know, there's more variety and it's 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:30.560 a lot less formal here. So I'm really enjoying it. 0:04:31.080 --> 0:04:32.440 I know a few of the courses in the area 0:04:32.440 --> 0:04:35.760 already because my parents live up here. But my dad 0:04:35.760 --> 0:04:38.800 and I are going to try to play a different 0:04:38.839 --> 0:04:43.679 course every Friday morning and so we'll kind of explore 0:04:43.720 --> 0:04:47.039 this scene that way. But last week we were at Eastmoreland, 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:52.440 which is a municipal course in Portland. Pretty cool, and yeah, 0:04:52.480 --> 0:04:54.159 we'll go someplace different tomorrow morning. 0:04:54.560 --> 0:04:58.520 Oh that it's exciting. It's a nice little tradition, you know. 0:04:58.960 --> 0:05:01.680 Yeah, yeah, it'll be It'll be a good way to 0:05:02.320 --> 0:05:05.440 kind of take advantage of the golf season because the 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:09.159 golf season does end here. There's there's a there's a 0:05:09.160 --> 0:05:12.159 point at which you it's it's no longer fun to 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:14.640 play golf in Oregon, it gets a little bit too wet, 0:05:14.720 --> 0:05:16.880 so we're going to try to get it out of 0:05:16.880 --> 0:05:18.400 our systems before that happens. 0:05:19.279 --> 0:05:21.720 So we uh we took a trip a couple of 0:05:21.760 --> 0:05:26.040 weeks ago to down did a little Maxwell tour. This 0:05:26.120 --> 0:05:30.440 is your first exposure to Perry Maxwell. I'd seen some stuff. 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:32.800 I'd been to Prairie dunees, so we we draw we 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:36.560 uh went to Prairie Dunes and UH Southern Hills and 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.520 figured we'd reconvene here and talk a little bit about 0:05:40.839 --> 0:05:45.359 Perry Maxwell and UH. In the two courses we saw, obviously, 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:48.800 Prary Dune's iconic place that you know, most people have 0:05:48.920 --> 0:05:51.960 heard about, and Southern Hill is a you know, championship course, 0:05:52.000 --> 0:05:56.560 but had just underwent a gil Hant's restoration renovation. I'm 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:59.360 not sure what you would call it, you know, retrovation. 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.400 He well, restovation is sometimes the term people use, but 0:06:04.520 --> 0:06:10.400 he said twenty to twenty five percent renovation and seventy 0:06:10.440 --> 0:06:14.760 five to eighty percent restoration. That's the number he put 0:06:14.800 --> 0:06:15.000 on it. 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:20.039 So what did you know about Prairie Maxwell, Perry Maxwell. 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:25.120 I call them Prairie Maxwell, Perry Maxwell. Coming into the 0:06:25.839 --> 0:06:29.400 trip in what kind of were your key takeaways from 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:33.359 the architect that you know most people don't know a 0:06:33.360 --> 0:06:33.880 ton about. 0:06:35.640 --> 0:06:41.960 Yeah, I knew embarrassingly little about Perry Maxwell going into 0:06:42.000 --> 0:06:45.640 this trip. I guess I knew that he had designed 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:49.040 Prairie Dunes, and I was really excited about playing that course. 0:06:49.080 --> 0:06:51.880 I've been I've been looking forward to playing that course 0:06:51.880 --> 0:06:56.440 for many years now. But aside from that, I suppose 0:06:56.480 --> 0:07:02.480 I primarily knew him as an Alistair mackenzie associate, somebody 0:07:02.480 --> 0:07:08.120 who helped build a few of Mackenzie's courses, including Crystal Downs, 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:12.640 and so that's primarily where I heard his name. I 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.960 was aware that there were some great courses that he 0:07:15.040 --> 0:07:19.920 built in Oklahoma and in that general region, but aside 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:22.680 from that, just didn't know much about him. I guess 0:07:22.760 --> 0:07:25.720 I had heard the term Maxwell rolls before, right, which 0:07:25.760 --> 0:07:29.760 refers to the characteristics of his greens, his his kind 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:33.520 of rolling greens. But you know, at the same time, 0:07:33.800 --> 0:07:35.640 there are a lot of architects who are who are 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.400 known for bold green contours, and so it didn't really 0:07:39.400 --> 0:07:42.240 stick in my mind as being something distinctive to Maxwell. 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:45.880 So that's kind of what I knew before. What about you, like, 0:07:46.280 --> 0:07:48.880 so you had played Prairie Dunes before. I mean, what 0:07:48.960 --> 0:07:51.320 was your appreciation of Maxwell, like. 0:07:51.560 --> 0:07:54.880 And I'd seen Crystal Downs to which he had, you know, 0:07:54.920 --> 0:07:59.480 he was pretty you know, he's obviously Mackenzie's associate there 0:07:59.520 --> 0:08:03.120 and had you know, large role in that golf course. 0:08:03.200 --> 0:08:06.040 And you know, I think one of the things I 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:11.200 take away from Perry Maxwell, and I think like Langford 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.920 Moreau fall into this bucket too, is that we like 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:20.160 we romanticize the Golden Age architects, and the ones that 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:22.640 get the most love tend to be the ones that 0:08:23.120 --> 0:08:26.440 designed in the most high profile places and have had 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:33.800 their their designs the best preserved, right where like Alisair 0:08:33.880 --> 0:08:38.160 Mackenzie is obviously one of the greatest architects of all time, 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:41.320 but he also has the you know, he has like 0:08:41.440 --> 0:08:45.520 museum pieces that have been well preserved in very high 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:48.520 like Cyprus Point is a perfect example of that, where 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.120 it's on Monterey Peninsula, like it gets it's got huge 0:08:53.160 --> 0:08:57.800 exposure and it is perfectly preserved, right And I think, like, 0:08:58.160 --> 0:08:59.839 you know, the same thing could be said about like 0:08:59.880 --> 0:09:02.559 the Rayner McDonald's out east, where they're in these high 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:06.280 profile areas and they haven't been that messed up. And 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:12.280 I think Maxwell and Langford Moreau are two architects where 0:09:12.720 --> 0:09:16.199 their designs are in lesser known places, lots of small towns, 0:09:16.320 --> 0:09:20.160 lots of rural areas. And they also were building golf 0:09:20.200 --> 0:09:23.160 courses at the very end of the Golden Age and 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.520 had their careers kind of derailed and a lot of 0:09:26.559 --> 0:09:30.160 their work for many reasons because where they built it 0:09:30.240 --> 0:09:33.959 haven't hasn't been preserved the way you know, National Golf 0:09:34.000 --> 0:09:37.840 Links or Piping Rock or these types of golf courses 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.240 have out East or tillinghas to work in New York. 0:09:42.280 --> 0:09:46.160 So I think they're I think Perry Maxwell, you know, 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.360 arguably is maybe the most underrated or underappreciated architect in 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.400 the country of the US architects. 0:09:54.440 --> 0:09:56.520 Yeah, he might very well be. And I think also 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.200 part of it is and you alluded to this by 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.240 saying that length Ford and Moreau and Perry Maxwell both 0:10:02.280 --> 0:10:05.840 built a lot of courses in rural areas, in small towns. 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:10.920 Perry Maxwell built most of his courses in the same 0:10:11.000 --> 0:10:15.400 region in Oklahoma. I'm not exactly sure how many courses 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.720 he built in Oklahoma alone, but it was a lot, 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.319 and so to a great extent he was a regional architect. 0:10:22.720 --> 0:10:25.319 You know. That's not to say that he didn't go elsewhere. Obviously, 0:10:25.400 --> 0:10:30.600 he built Old Town, he worked on Augusta National, He 0:10:30.679 --> 0:10:34.000 did some traveling, especially after he had gotten established as 0:10:34.000 --> 0:10:41.080 an architect, but the concentration of his work was in Oklahoma, 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:44.280 in the area where he lived. And I think that 0:10:44.480 --> 0:10:49.880 regional architects do tend to be underappreciated compared to these 0:10:50.000 --> 0:10:55.880 globe trotting architects like Alistair mackenzie, or compared to architects 0:10:55.880 --> 0:10:58.480 who built near huge urban areas. 0:10:58.760 --> 0:11:03.440 Yes, and Thomas, Yeah, like his Thomas you could say 0:11:03.640 --> 0:11:06.520 was like a regional architect in a way, you know, 0:11:07.920 --> 0:11:11.200 but but he was building it in la and you know, 0:11:11.280 --> 0:11:13.360 build these famous championship courses. 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:17.080 And I think the same is the same could be 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.800 said of today's architects. Right. We have a set of 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:27.280 globe trotting international architects who often will get to work 0:11:27.320 --> 0:11:31.280 on some of those courses near big urban centers. And 0:11:31.320 --> 0:11:36.280 then we also have these architects who are focusing their 0:11:36.360 --> 0:11:42.360 work in one region. Dan Hickson in Oregon, the Collagon 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:47.360 Design Firm, Trade Camp in Texas, you know, and there's 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:49.880 a lot of good work going on in these concentrated 0:11:49.920 --> 0:11:53.880 regional places. But obviously a lot of the attention tends 0:11:53.920 --> 0:11:57.560 to go to the architects who are traveling the world, 0:11:57.760 --> 0:12:00.520 like Tom Doak or Gil Hans or David clay Kid. 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:05.200 Yeah, yeah, bring up. And then there's also these guys 0:12:05.200 --> 0:12:08.680 that now with the way architecture is today, is like 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:12.400 they have to specialize in and they specialize in a 0:12:12.480 --> 0:12:16.319 certain thing. So like you know, Chris Spence with Ross Restorations, 0:12:16.720 --> 0:12:19.760 or Jeff Mingay has been doing tons of Avy mccannwork 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:21.880 in Pacific Northwest, like. 0:12:22.040 --> 0:12:24.040 In n C. He's very much. Yeah, he's kind of 0:12:24.040 --> 0:12:26.600 on this regional model, isn't he He's he's a lot 0:12:26.640 --> 0:12:29.840 of his work is in Washington and and I guess 0:12:29.880 --> 0:12:30.720 British Columbia. 0:12:31.480 --> 0:12:36.600 Yeah, it's it's interesting and I think it so seeing 0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:41.400 seeing too, you know, now very well preserved Maxwell courses, 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.439 you know, with with the original nine, So Perry Maxwell 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.560 did our original nine at Prairie Dunes for those that 0:12:49.600 --> 0:12:53.559 don't know, and it was it's widely considered kind of 0:12:53.640 --> 0:12:57.040 the last design of the Golden Age. You know, it's 0:12:57.080 --> 0:13:01.200 probably argued it's you could argue men, but you know, 0:13:01.280 --> 0:13:03.520 it's considered you know, kind of like the last great 0:13:03.559 --> 0:13:06.960 design of the Golden Age, you know, and then his 0:13:07.240 --> 0:13:11.280 son Press came in and did a subsequent nine that's 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:15.439 apparently to the plans that Perry had laid out when 0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:19.080 when he designed Prairie Dunes in the late thirties. So 0:13:19.440 --> 0:13:22.319 he did this in the height of the depression in Hutchinson, 0:13:22.400 --> 0:13:27.160 Kansas on you know, the Sandy site, and did it 0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:29.960 with pretty much no money, which is one of the 0:13:30.000 --> 0:13:33.240 amazing things I think with Maxwell's how many courses he 0:13:33.360 --> 0:13:34.840 designed during the Great Depression. 0:13:36.080 --> 0:13:40.200 Yeah, yeah, it's it's remarkable. And he designed his best 0:13:40.320 --> 0:13:46.120 or best known courses in nineteen thirty five, nineteen thirty six, 0:13:46.240 --> 0:13:50.160 nineteen thirty seven, right, and that was a really hard 0:13:50.160 --> 0:13:54.280 time to get anything built in America, much less golf courses. 0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:56.480 But there were some I mean, we can get into 0:13:56.520 --> 0:13:59.440 this further later, maybe, but there were some unique circumstances 0:13:59.480 --> 0:14:03.000 about where he was and who he was that enabled 0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:05.200 him to do this. You know, he was, first of all, 0:14:05.240 --> 0:14:09.440 an independently wealthy person. He didn't really go broke like 0:14:10.080 --> 0:14:13.679 other Golden Age architects did, and so in some senses 0:14:13.720 --> 0:14:16.760 he was an exception and took advantage of circumstances in 0:14:17.040 --> 0:14:23.160 his area. Nonetheless, he built these courses for for very 0:14:23.200 --> 0:14:26.520 little money, uh, even even at the time. 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.800 Yeah, you've read Maxwell's book. I've read some of it. 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:33.480 Uh that The Midwest Associate that. 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:35.040 Uh Chris Klauser. 0:14:35.080 --> 0:14:38.640 Yeah, Chris Klauser, And I was curious, what how did 0:14:38.880 --> 0:14:41.160 Can you give us a little background on Perry Maxwell? 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:45.880 Sure? Absolutely, I now so I'm definitely not a Perry 0:14:45.880 --> 0:14:49.160 Maxwell X expert. I've just read this this book by 0:14:49.280 --> 0:14:53.800 Chris Klauser called The Midwest Associate. Also read a couple 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:56.760 of kind of specific things about the Southern Hills and 0:14:57.160 --> 0:15:02.080 Prairie Dunes club histories. But from what I was able 0:15:02.120 --> 0:15:06.680 to gather from cliffs Chris Klauser's book, Perry Maxwell grew 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:13.640 up in Kentucky in a wealthy family. Eventually relocated when 0:15:13.640 --> 0:15:17.400 he was making a family of his own to Ardmore, Oklahoma, 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:22.360 where he worked as a banker for many years. And 0:15:22.440 --> 0:15:26.480 he was a very well respected and well known local person. 0:15:27.280 --> 0:15:29.720 People all over the region, in fact, knew who he 0:15:29.880 --> 0:15:33.000 was and and uh and really respected him as a 0:15:33.000 --> 0:15:35.400 as a banker and a significant member of the community. 0:15:36.480 --> 0:15:39.800 While he was still working at the Bank in Ardmore, 0:15:39.880 --> 0:15:42.400 and this happened to be actually a very wealthy little 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:45.520 pocket in Oklahoma at the time because of the oil money. 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:47.920 So there was a lot of money running through there. 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:49.560 There were there were a lot of kind of newly 0:15:49.680 --> 0:15:52.520 rich people, and he was he was part of that 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:56.040 part of that cash flow. I guess you could say 0:15:57.120 --> 0:16:01.040 Perry Maxwell got interested in golf architecture. And his first 0:16:01.080 --> 0:16:04.640 course he actually built on his own land, So that 0:16:04.880 --> 0:16:09.160 was Dornic Hills and it's right there in Ardmore, on 0:16:09.200 --> 0:16:11.960 the on the Perry Maxwell estate, and that's where he 0:16:12.080 --> 0:16:16.040 kind of worked out his initial theories and methods of 0:16:16.080 --> 0:16:19.680 golf architecture. It looks like it used to be one 0:16:19.720 --> 0:16:22.200 heck of a golf course. I mean, just fascinating. There's 0:16:22.200 --> 0:16:24.880 still sketches of what the holes look like. It still 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:28.119 exists there, but I think in very much altered form. 0:16:28.720 --> 0:16:31.040 And so that's how he got his start, and you know, 0:16:31.320 --> 0:16:34.320 from there he you know, throughout the nineteen twenties he 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:38.720 was building courses in Oklahoma and the surrounding areas, some 0:16:38.800 --> 0:16:42.400 courses in really remote places and some really rough places, 0:16:42.520 --> 0:16:47.479 a few sand green courses, and he just eventually developed 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:52.120 a great reputation as a golf architect. Eventually, Alistair mackenzie 0:16:52.160 --> 0:16:55.040 heard about him and used him on a couple of projects, including, 0:16:55.040 --> 0:16:58.960 as you mentioned earlier, Crystal Downs. And then when the 0:16:58.960 --> 0:17:02.480 depression hit, Perry Maxwell was one of the few golf 0:17:02.520 --> 0:17:07.960 course architects who was still really producing significant work. So 0:17:08.119 --> 0:17:12.840 in nineteen thirty five he was He built Southern Hills 0:17:12.880 --> 0:17:17.000 in Tulsa, Oklahoma, that opened in nineteen thirty six, and 0:17:17.040 --> 0:17:20.360 then right after that he built the original nine at 0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:25.399 Prairie Dunes, and those are probably his two best known 0:17:25.720 --> 0:17:29.280 original designs. Now, in any case, he's a he's a 0:17:29.320 --> 0:17:32.080 remarkable person. There's a lot more to his life story. 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.240 But a couple of the ways in which he's distinct 0:17:35.280 --> 0:17:37.640 from other architects of the Golden Age. First of all, 0:17:37.840 --> 0:17:41.720 you know, there there were no other you know, architects 0:17:41.800 --> 0:17:44.160 that we know of now who were in his region 0:17:44.720 --> 0:17:48.840 or anywhere close. And so it's just you know, there's 0:17:48.880 --> 0:17:52.000 this genius golf architect who came out of Oklahoma. 0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:55.240 He visited Scotland too, you know. 0:17:56.040 --> 0:17:58.000 Yes, that's right in nineteen twenty, I believe. 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.600 Yeah, So like that, I think that's something that where 0:18:00.800 --> 0:18:03.360 you see so many of the the Great Golden Age 0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:08.520 architects learned from Scotland. And I remember reading he got 0:18:08.720 --> 0:18:10.919 he got interested because of National golf links and he 0:18:10.960 --> 0:18:13.840 went and talked him to CB MacDonald and then went 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.880 to Scotland and and that kind of It's it's amazing 0:18:18.920 --> 0:18:23.600 how many, you know, how the architects that built golf 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.320 courses in America that went to Scotland and those that 0:18:27.680 --> 0:18:31.120 like I, you know, it's just a really fascinating dichotomy. 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.680 And it's like, you know, the most seemingly the most 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:38.399 prolific ones came either from the UK or went on 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:39.880 a pilgrimage to Scotland. 0:18:40.680 --> 0:18:44.119 The pilgrimage was part of the education, right, it was 0:18:44.160 --> 0:18:47.880 almost a necessary step. And I think Parry Maxwell really 0:18:47.920 --> 0:18:52.960 took the lessons that he learned in Scotland to to heart. 0:18:53.160 --> 0:18:57.640 You know, he he when whenever he spoke about golf 0:18:57.640 --> 0:19:00.680 course architecture, he wasn't as prolific in hiskind of public 0:19:01.280 --> 0:19:05.840 speaking about or writing about golf course architecture as Alistair 0:19:05.920 --> 0:19:09.800 mackenzie or C. B. McDonald were, But whenever he did 0:19:09.840 --> 0:19:14.840 speak about golf architecture, he talked about, you know, learning 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:21.120 from Scottish courses, that nature was more interesting than anything 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.399 that man could create. There's, in particular, this interview that 0:19:25.520 --> 0:19:29.960 appeared in the magazine and American Golfer in I think 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:34.679 nineteen thirty five, and it's just you know, quote after quote, 0:19:34.680 --> 0:19:38.679 and this interview is just fantastic. So he says things like, 0:19:39.080 --> 0:19:41.840 it is my theory that nature must precede the architect 0:19:41.920 --> 0:19:44.520 in the laying out of links. It is futile to 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:49.000 attempt the transformation of wholly inadequate acres into an adequate course. 0:19:49.680 --> 0:19:53.600 Invariably the result is the inauguration of an earthquake. The 0:19:53.640 --> 0:19:57.160 sight of a golf course should be there, not brought there. 0:19:58.119 --> 0:20:00.640 Later on, he says, the less of man's handy work, 0:20:00.760 --> 0:20:03.679 the better. Of course, he was really a fanatic about 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:07.600 about naturalness. And I think that he probably you know, 0:20:07.680 --> 0:20:11.040 that conviction of his was confirmed by going to Scotland 0:20:11.200 --> 0:20:15.200 and seeing how those courses were laid out on the land. 0:20:15.720 --> 0:20:19.600 Yeah, I think. I mean, obviously you see a lot 0:20:19.640 --> 0:20:22.000 of the way he uses land, the land at at 0:20:22.040 --> 0:20:25.040 Prairie Dunes. I mean, he did it with his tiny budget. 0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.080 It's it's one of the amazing stories that he did 0:20:27.200 --> 0:20:30.240 with essentially an ox and a cart. He built this 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:32.199 golf course and and the only way you build a 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:34.879 golf course that way is by using the natural terrain. 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:37.520 And and I think one of the things, you know, 0:20:37.600 --> 0:20:40.760 there's the blindness. And he was kind of the last 0:20:40.840 --> 0:20:43.679 of the of the you know, the artists that before 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:47.840 we entered this new era of golf architecture where you know, 0:20:48.160 --> 0:20:52.760 the the designs became kind of built versus you know, found, 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:55.640 and uh, it's it's an interesting thing. I think one 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:57.679 of the one of the parts of his legacy that 0:20:57.880 --> 0:21:02.080 just you know, and this is everybody favoring to talk 0:21:02.119 --> 0:21:06.080 about Alistair Mackenzie, but you know, Maxwell was so vital 0:21:06.160 --> 0:21:10.200 in the development in what today is is Augusta National. 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.920 I mean, you know, for example, the tenth hole got 0:21:14.160 --> 0:21:17.760 you know, is pretty much entirely Maxwell. He moved the greens, 0:21:17.920 --> 0:21:20.720 you know, ninety yards. That's why there's that Mackenzie bunker 0:21:20.760 --> 0:21:23.360 sitting there in the in the middle of the fairway. 0:21:24.440 --> 0:21:27.520 And you know, also made a ton of modifications on 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:31.560 the greens while also being extremely involved in the building 0:21:31.800 --> 0:21:34.479 of Augusta National. I mean, he was partnered up with 0:21:34.760 --> 0:21:38.119 Mackenzie to do that project. You know, Mackenzie worked with 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:40.800 Robert Hunter on the West Coast, and pretty much everywhere 0:21:40.800 --> 0:21:43.800 else he worked with Perry Maxwell. 0:21:44.040 --> 0:21:48.280 Yes, right, if you go through that great article that 0:21:48.359 --> 0:21:50.720 appeared in Golf Digest a couple of years back, the 0:21:50.800 --> 0:21:54.320 complete changes to Augusta National, and you just go through 0:21:54.359 --> 0:21:57.960 hole by hole and look at what Perry Maxwell did there, 0:21:58.680 --> 0:22:04.320 you begin to understand that to a significant degree, that 0:22:04.480 --> 0:22:08.000 course is the result of a kind of cross generational 0:22:08.040 --> 0:22:12.240 collaboration between a number of architects, but very high among 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.600 those is is Perry Maxwell. And especially when you see 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:18.760 that tenth green, you know that is a that is 0:22:18.800 --> 0:22:22.359 a Maxwell Green. There are some other Maxwell Greens on 0:22:22.359 --> 0:22:25.240 that courses as well, and people often forget that. 0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:29.119 Yeah, so let's talk a little bit about Prairie Dun't. 0:22:30.720 --> 0:22:34.879 What were your impressions of Prairie Dunes. We we spent 0:22:35.080 --> 0:22:37.639 a couple of days there played it. I don't know, 0:22:38.520 --> 0:22:43.800 played how many holes fifty four holes about? 0:22:44.480 --> 0:22:47.359 I think is because that one evening we played nine. 0:22:47.600 --> 0:22:49.919 Yeah, it was it was a very very hot. It 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:51.880 was you know, in the end of June, so it's 0:22:51.920 --> 0:22:55.439 like one hundred degrees every day, and uh, you know 0:22:55.600 --> 0:22:59.639 the but the I mean, I'm curious as as somebody 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:02.640 that hadn't been there, what what would you expect and 0:23:02.760 --> 0:23:04.919 what did you come away thinking? 0:23:05.920 --> 0:23:08.919 So I was very excited about playing Prairie Dunes. I 0:23:09.040 --> 0:23:12.840 had been looking at pictures of that course and maps 0:23:12.880 --> 0:23:16.920 of that course since I was a golf architecture nut 0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.400 as a kid, and and and I had always thought 0:23:20.400 --> 0:23:22.879 of it as one of the courses that I really 0:23:22.920 --> 0:23:26.280 wanted to play. It just looked cool, and so I 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:32.160 was really excited about it. My expectations were very high, 0:23:32.280 --> 0:23:34.960 and they were, you know, completely met by by my 0:23:35.040 --> 0:23:37.080 experience at the course. You know, I don't I don't 0:23:37.080 --> 0:23:41.720 see how they how they couldn't be just uh, once 0:23:41.840 --> 0:23:46.960 you drive into that region of land, right, you're sort 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:48.160 of you know. 0:23:49.080 --> 0:23:55.080 So it's about fifty minutes from Wichita's right, Yeah, it's Hutchinson, Kansas. 0:23:55.160 --> 0:23:58.119 So you know, like the last spot in America that 0:23:58.200 --> 0:24:01.520 you'd expect a great golf course, you know, maybe not 0:24:01.560 --> 0:24:02.879 the last one of the last. 0:24:04.800 --> 0:24:08.000 Well, you just don't expect that land to all of 0:24:08.040 --> 0:24:11.320 a sudden appear out of the prairie. Right. You're going 0:24:11.359 --> 0:24:14.359 around you fly into Wichita and you're kind of driving 0:24:14.400 --> 0:24:18.399 around there and it's perfectly lovely and everything, but you 0:24:18.560 --> 0:24:21.960 just don't see it yet. But then you know, about 0:24:22.200 --> 0:24:26.600 thirty miles twenty thirty miles away from Prairie Dunes, you 0:24:26.680 --> 0:24:29.280 start to see the land rumple a little bit and 0:24:29.320 --> 0:24:32.360 you start to see these sand dunes and these kind 0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:36.720 of exposed sandy blowouts, and there you are in the 0:24:36.720 --> 0:24:38.720 middle of the country and you see this kind of 0:24:38.800 --> 0:24:42.679 ocean shaped stuff. And so that's the first thing that 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:46.359 strikes you is just how completely ideal the land is. 0:24:47.720 --> 0:24:50.760 And when you drive into Prairie Dunes, you know, the 0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:54.080 first thing you see is not necessarily the golf course. 0:24:54.400 --> 0:24:58.199 You don't necessarily notice that, hey, there's the golf course. 0:24:58.720 --> 0:25:02.479 It's more like, you see this incredible land, these huge 0:25:02.520 --> 0:25:06.400